00:00:03.120 - 00:00:15.450

So today is April 22, 2021. My name is Ann Shi, I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. We're pleased to be documenting Thomas Tran's oral history today.

00:00:15.930 - 00:00:30.680

Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. So to start, as we are starting from the very beginning, where–where were you born? I was born in Houston, Texas.

00:00:30.730 - 00:00:45.880

I forget the hospital, but it was one of the downtown ones. And then I grew up there until high school and I left to Ohio for college. Yeah. So strong roots in Alief, Alief specifically, part of

00:00:45.880 - 00:01:04.950

Houston. Can you share with us some of the memories of your childhood and the household you grew up in? Household, I'm the oldest of three. And I have a younger sister, younger brother, we're all pretty close in age.

00:01:07.420 - 00:01:21.530

We all lived in the same house when we were young. It would be the grandparents and then the—their three sons. And we would all live in the same house, and then eventually, the sons had their own families and they moved

00:01:21.530 - 00:01:34.100

out. But it was like everyone under–under like, one roof, one story house. And it was–it was fun back then, it was really fun. I remember it being like an open-door policy.

00:01:34.250 - 00:01:44.450

Like I feel like these days I'll have to call before I go over to like a friend's house. But back then, like, people will just come over whenever, you know, like family friends, family.

00:01:45.550 - 00:02:04.000

I like that a lot. But that was back then. And I think something special about the place I grew up in, in Alief, was there wasn't a lot of, of a majority

00:02:04.000 - 00:02:21.610

minority feeling when it came to ethnicity. Like I remember going to college and I was so confused about racism. And like, I-I just didn't, it was–it was—I just never—it was either I never experienced it or I never recognized it

00:02:21.610 - 00:02:38.250

when it was happening when I was younger. And there were also—like, there weren't many white kids. You know, it was mostly children of immigrants where—that I went to school with. So I think that like for A–in Alief,

00:02:38.250 - 00:02:55.610

I think that makes it, the children growing up there makes it a very special reality that the majority of Americans, I think, don't share, which is like super cool. Yeah. That's, that's the childhood, I guess.

00:02:55.990 - 00:03:12.170

Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and where they came from? Yeah, they're from Vietnam. They came over in '75, of course.

00:03:13.330 - 00:03:27.880

But my mom went to—her family went to Australia. So she has a big family. She's one of about around like, 10 siblings or something, I forget. And then some of them are adopted too.

00:03:29.520 - 00:03:45.410

But all of them are in Australia, except for herself and her sister that are over here. And then the dad's side came over here right away to live in Chicago for a bit; but it was too cold, so they came

00:03:45.410 - 00:04:05.650

down here. And my dad’s pretty—he's pretty well known in the Vietnamese community in Houston. Because when everyone was starting to come over or moving in, he was one of the people that was either—not founded, or

00:04:05.650 - 00:04:20.540

maybe, but he was very involved in the first TV network. It was either TV or radio, he doesn't talk about too much. But every time we go out somewhere, he almost always knows somebody, like if we go to a restaurant or

00:04:20.540 - 00:04:36.210

like a movie theater or something, like he'll run into like somebody that he knew. So he's a very, very like, personable person. And I think he–he started the TV, radio thing—I think

00:04:36.210 - 00:04:52.660

it was TV, I forget—because when he was in the–the refugee camps, he would be in charge, or he would be one of the workers at the radio station. So he kind of got his hands dirty there.

00:04:53.790 - 00:05:10.810

And then my mom worked as a—she went to school. And then she worked as like a social worker for a bit in Australia. And then I forget what happened. But, but now what they both do is flip houses in Houston.

00:05:11.340 - 00:05:23.940

I think early, early on when I was young, they had a convenience store. But then they were getting robbed too much, and too much at gunpoint stuff. So they were like, no it's not worth it.

00:05:23.940 - 00:05:39.150

So then they sold it. And then they started flipping houses like mid 2000s. So, oh yeah, and then now, we still have a house in Alief, Houston, where

00:05:39.260 - 00:05:56.980

everyone's at. So yeah. So where their convenience store, was, was it also Alief? No, it was downtown. It was close to that area, you know the bridges with the red balls?

00:05:58.580 - 00:06:06.260

You know, like when you're driving down the highway? Yeah. Yeah. The one that I think they light up now with different colors, but their–their convenience store was close by there.

00:06:09.210 - 00:06:25.830

And–and yeah, they were just getting too much gunpoint stuff. It was not cool. Wow, that's really disheartening to hear that they had to deal with all these crimes. And can you tell us, what's

00:06:27.180 - 00:06:43.500

some of the cuisines you had, like some of the food you had during childhood, like did your parents had the time to cook or did you usually eat out? Okay. I think we–we eat a lot of the usual Vietnamese stuff.

00:06:45.210 - 00:07:00.500

Some stuff I remember from childhood are—there's like the–the soy, or like the sweet rice. And then my grandma would always have like a bag of sugar, and then we would dip it in the sugar, and eat it as kids.

00:07:00.560 - 00:07:17.320

Now we did the same with strawberries. That was really good, too. Let's see what else. We—oh, the–the–the egg fetus that you break out the top and then you drink the

00:07:17.320 - 00:07:28.340

water and then you eat it. That was good. And then of course the usual like pho, and like the spring rolls and egg rolls and all that stuff.

00:07:32.790 - 00:07:53.940

There was–there was—they do this thing, I forget what—I don't know what anything is called apparently. But New Year's, we would go to our grandma's sister's house, or brother's house, I forget. But they would give us these like little like soybean things and cubes, and they're

00:07:53.940 - 00:08:07.160

like sweet, I forget what they’re called, but I–I–I crave those often. If I can ever find it again, I'll–I’ll totally, I'll totally just... Yeah, I love that. I

00:08:07.160 - 00:08:14.910

guess nothing, nothing too out of the ordinary. I think just mostly Vietnamese stuff. And then even now we still just eat a lot of Vietnamese stuff.

00:08:15.360 - 00:08:31.870

I think a lot of my friends, they can't—a lot of them don't, they couldn't say the same. A lot of them are—they prefer American stuff for some reason. But yeah, Vietnamese stuff, it's still–still the

00:08:31.960 - 00:08:46.280

preferred cuisine now. Well, if, if you happen to have a recipe, like a family traditional recipe, we'd love to archive that too. Okay. I'll ask my mom.

00:08:46.510 - 00:09:03.240

Yeah. And you've mentioned your grandma, so does she and your grandpa—grand-granddad as well, also moved here in 1975? Yes. And they like, did–did they share

00:09:03.590 - 00:09:18.670

part of the caretaking of you, or any of your siblings? That–that was—yeah, that was a weird topic for us. That was a point of contention of—with my grandma.

00:09:21.230 - 00:09:36.470

Okay, so–so my mom was from, is from Australia, and she came over here, but all her family and her parents are all–all over in Australia. So over here, the grand—when I was referred to a grandparents, it's the paternal side.

00:09:37.690 - 00:09:52.850

And so the grandma here and my mom didn't always get along because... Grandma would take care of us, but she would say the responsibility lied in my mom to do that.

00:09:54.620 - 00:10:07.480

Even though when they were working at the convenience store, there was only my mom and my dad working. So like when one wasn't working, the other was working. So it was, yeah—and then they were also raising three kids at the same time.

00:10:07.480 - 00:10:18.930

So it was really, it was really hard. So I'm not sure. Yeah, so that made it really hard on my mom, so kind of created a lot of resentment there between her and my grandma.

00:10:20.200 - 00:10:31.640

I'm not sure why—I think, I think because it is an in-law, and that, it... and then her son was also her oldest son.

00:10:32.730 - 00:10:42.670

There was, like, some favoritism. And then she wanted like, the best for her–her son or something. I don't know. But she–she was hard on my mom, for sure.

00:10:43.120 - 00:11:00.760

And that was stuff that she, that my mom would come out with, and speak about, even when my grandma passed, at her funeral, so it–it definitely like, that

00:11:00.760 - 00:11:14.840

was, it was a tense relationship for sure. Well, thank you for sharing that. No problem. I hope they don't mind. And do you have any siblings?

00:11:16.500 - 00:11:27.120

Yes, I have a younger sister and a younger brother. Were you guys playing a lot of games together growing up? And if you can share those memories?

00:11:30.580 - 00:11:41.560

Yeah, I think, okay, so, sister don't play a lot of games, but she's very competitive. So if we ever played a game with her, she would want to win. So maybe that's why she didn’t want to play a lot of games.

00:11:43.080 - 00:11:54.530

But me and brother played a lot of games for sure. A lot of online games, especially through, throughout like middle school, high school for sure, a lot.

00:11:55.880 - 00:12:16.910

And then that's also how we bonded, like video games, anime, manga, cartoons. Yeah, that was a good way. Yeah, I think a majority of the entertainment that we had was that, was definitely video

00:12:16.910 - 00:12:34.160

games. And that got me and my brother close, for sure. And then sister’s kind of just do her own thing. As the eldest son in the family, were you like, assumed many of the responsibilities for your

00:12:34.160 - 00:12:48.210

brothers and sisters? I think there was more pressure on me to do that stuff, for sure. Role model type stuff from the parents. But as we grew older, that became more of a hindrance

00:12:49.280 - 00:13:07.030

than a—than any, I don't know, benefit I got from it. And I definitely recognize that, so. I'm not sure if I'm still working through stuff like that. But let's see.

00:13:08.480 - 00:13:28.160

Maybe, who knows? Yeah, but definitely the older, oldest son, most responsibility, for sure, from the parents. Yeah, for sure. What were some of the family values that you guys were emphasized with during your upbringing?

00:13:31.030 - 00:13:52.980

Hmm. Education is number one. We were–we were raised Catholic. So a lot of the Catholic morals too. Definitely be good to other people.

00:13:54.920 - 00:14:16.360

It's important to be caring, and kind. I say this stuff, but I'm also not 100 on it. Because it's stuff we were taught, but it's not always stuff that the parents exemplified.

00:14:18.510 - 00:14:33.450

Let's see. I think the biggest one is definitely education is number one. I think most of the, most of the community and social values that we learned weren't always explicitly

00:14:34.300 - 00:14:53.900

taught by our parents; but usually from outside sources like, like the church or from just going to school. So parents are—or mainly, they mainly reinforced your individual responsibility within the family.

00:14:55.100 - 00:15:07.440

And–and that also included you're young, you're a student. So, your job is to work hard in school for the family.

00:15:08.800 - 00:15:25.000

I think a lot of Asian people could probably relate to that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And that's very prevalent in Asian culture I’m sure. For sure. Did your parents bring you up speaking English to you,

00:15:25.000 - 00:15:39.560

or mostly Vietnamese? Yeah, we–we–we were all fluent in Vietnamese at one point, and then we lost it when we transitioned into public school and learned English.

00:15:40.380 - 00:15:57.680

I think now, most of us, we–we all understand it whenever our parents talk to us in Vietnamese, but we can't hold down like a more rigorous conversation. Like if we talked to like, more like

00:15:57.680 - 00:16:13.860

idea, intellectually, versus like conversation and like day to day, like, we can hold those types of conversations down, but the others, like, if we talk like, about politics or something like there's no way. Yeah, that's where it's at.

00:16:17.430 - 00:16:33.410

Great. And did your parents share with you any of their Vietnamese story? I mean, their stories when they were in Vietnam, before they moved here. Oh, they don't share it unless we ask.

00:16:37.020 - 00:16:52.260

Yeah, like, they're–they’re not that the types—well, some sometimes they would, sometimes they would. But like the, the day to day, I guess fun stuff. The—what was it called?

00:16:54.120 - 00:17:06.240

I guess the stuff that like isn't so like, life threatening, or like the, the jovial type of stories, like they don't usually, don't share too much of that. But like, the, like the rigor of like, the whole, like,

00:17:07.010 - 00:17:22.040

migration, immigration, they definitely share, to like, reinforce like their lessons and stuff. You know? Yeah, but I think most of us, a lot of the

00:17:22.040 - 00:17:34.830

stories I had to, like pry out of them, usually, like, just for fun out at dinner at a dinner table, you know, like, what else is to talk about, someone will pry into your history type of stuff. Or like for like a school project?

00:17:35.140 - 00:17:45.930

I like have to pry into them and ask them about their, their past. But they usually don't bring it up too much. Yeah. Thank you, and you mentioned that Alief

00:17:46.470 - 00:17:58.870

is a very diverse neighborhood. And you probably didn't encounter the idea or the recognition, or the self id-identification of Asian American until probably a little later.

00:17:59.480 - 00:18:18.190

Can you share what, what was the trigger? That enc—that encounter, that caused you to realize that identity? I don't, I don't know if I would say there was a trigger.

00:18:20.140 - 00:18:39.260

I mean, I definitely, I think in school, it was definitely apparent that I was Vietnamese, and I wasn't like my Black friend, you know. So it's not like, I wasn't aware of that back then. I think the only–the only trigger was

00:18:40.690 - 00:18:59.770

that I realized that I didn't, I didn't understand racism in the, in... Yeah, I just I didn't I didn't understand it, or was aware of the issue of it, or the gravity until I went to college and other friends who were...

00:19:00.190 - 00:19:17.680

or I met people that this prejudice affected. So as far as my own identity, identity as an Asian American, I don't think I ever, I never really struggle with that.

00:19:17.680 - 00:19:32.080

I just accepted it as fact. Yeah. That's great. And next, I'm wondering, how did art initially became a passion in your life?

00:19:32.370 - 00:19:47.320

You mentioned went to a gifted high school for art students. Can you share some, like how your journey went and lead you into that, that path? Oh, I don't.

00:19:48.600 - 00:20:00.450

Okay, if–if I wrote that I'm, I don't remember. But if I wrote that, it's not true. I just went to like a normal, I went to a high school, but it was one you had to apply to get into. And it was a high school for nerds

00:20:02.190 - 00:20:17.650

called Kerr High School. It wasn't exactly for arts, but it was definitely like, for smart nerd kids. Yeah. Sorry.

00:20:18.230 - 00:20:31.750

I-I-I think I might have misunderstood because it was like the gifted and talented program but it's... It's not in the arts. Yeah. My bad. Yeah, yeah.

00:20:32.640 - 00:20:49.830

Yeah, I was in gift, the gifted and talented program in Alief since like, the second grade, until like, then high school. And then the passion for arts thing. I think that's something I still struggle with.

00:20:52.230 - 00:21:11.920

Okay, so now, now, I'm 24. And I graduated college, maybe like 21 or 22, and then graduated high school 17 or 18. But I didn't start pursuing art like this as a career, I

00:21:11.920 - 00:21:29.300

guess, until I decided to take it seriously, in high school, and I say that, like with air quotes. And then I say that, because what I'm learning now is that...

00:21:29.660 - 00:21:44.670

or I guess what I've been kind of learning is like that decision in my life, even though it may have granted me a lot of opportunities, and like my growth as an artist has, was affected because of that.

00:21:45.300 - 00:22:01.670

It also was the, the cause of a lot of problems that I deal with now. And what I mean by that, is, let's see, like,

00:22:04.350 - 00:22:24.030

I'm-I’m learning, like, what art is to me, and like how that, and how my practice as an artist doesn't align very well in like a career, or, like, goal oriented or business type of mindset.

00:22:24.750 - 00:22:41.530

If anything, it's the opposite. So trying to mix those two things, like the–the upbringing and the parents want, you know, financial success, and for you to you know, climb the ranks or like, make money or, or

00:22:43.550 - 00:22:59.270

whatever. But like, I took that attitude and then applied it to, to why I want to try hard in art and take it, and take it more seriously, which, which

00:23:00.340 - 00:23:15.480

was a dentri—a detriment in a lot of ways. I can tell you that has affected a lot of my social relationships. And a lot of the struggle I deal with now in where

00:23:17.200 - 00:23:37.250

I want to go in the future as a career. The whole financial thing, like it–it was such like a kind of opposites thing that like, I just—it couldn't click with me in my head, like, how can I make art that's good, that I

00:23:37.250 - 00:23:55.320

liked and enjoy, but also make money out of it and build a career and all that—it just, for, maybe it works for some people; but for me, just it wasn't working. So like, right, right now, I told you I'm in–I'm in the

00:23:55.320 - 00:24:15.930

parking lot of a casino in Washington, which is like in the northwest corner of the US, besides from Alaska. And I did it to kind of find this, this passion or this

00:24:15.930 - 00:24:25.150

sense of, of like, what I, what I really want to do and stuff. I don't know, it's confusing. I guess I'm 24, I'm allowed to be confused and shit like this.

00:24:27.750 - 00:24:43.960

But, but yeah, I guess, I guess the passion. That's a weird word. I don't really know how to use passion when it comes to art. But, but now, to answer your question, it was definitely like, it was

00:24:43.960 - 00:25:00.580

like a mental switch in my head, like, I'm gonna try and go to college for this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and like, work hard and like, get accolades in art. Like there was a switch, maybe like mid or late high school that that happened.

00:25:02.670 - 00:25:17.310

Yeah. Yeah, thank you for sharing that part of the journey. And I, as I understand, like, as all artists are kind of going through many of the like, soul searching stage.

00:25:18.180 - 00:25:29.680

I'm sure you're not alone. And as you can... Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about some of the mentors or some of the people who influenced you deeply in

00:25:29.680 - 00:25:47.920

your journey in art? My high school art teacher, her name is Lisa Canorro. And I'm still close with her now. I'm actually gonna go visit her in a couple weeks here.

00:25:51.440 - 00:26:08.770

She, she definitely supported the whole me making art thing. And when like, I wasn't, I didn't have it in me to enter myself into competitions, because I was like, "oh, what's the point?

00:26:09.600 - 00:26:22.320

I'm not, I probably want to win anyways." Like, I had that kind of mentality. But she–she was like, she just put me in these competitions anyways, she signed me up herself. And then that got me a lot of awards.

00:26:22.320 - 00:26:36.550

And then that gave me confidence to pursue it further, the art thing. Other mentors, I guess, high s—I guess, in college. Unfortunately, I don't talk to them.

00:26:37.740 - 00:26:52.500

I haven't talked to them in, in a long time. But teachers that taught me a lot were a guy named Mike Laughead. He, I think he gave me—he–he

00:26:52.550 - 00:27:11.380

praised me a lot. He didn't teach me too much. But he did—he was very accepting and supported me, I guess. There was a guy named Kovach, who—he taught me a lot of technical stuff.

00:27:12.100 - 00:27:31.060

And he also encouraged me to like stay in the art game when I wasn't feeling too great about it. There was a guy named Gavrilo Gnatovich, I just

00:27:31.060 - 00:27:49.780

call him Mr. G. But he, we always had like, a lot of long talks after class. So he, so he, if anything, he gave me a lot of like insight as to what it is like to be an artist after

00:27:49.780 - 00:28:05.100

school. And–and for some reason, I thought I was better than that, I guess like, I wouldn't have to deal with it as much. But I definitely, I definitely am. I guess–I guess there's a lot of like, small mentors, none–none that are like,

00:28:06.100 - 00:28:23.940

prominent, like figures, but a lot of small mentors along the way, that I guess, played their role in my life. Yeah. So you studied illustration for—in BFA at the Columbus College

00:28:25.390 - 00:28:38.910

of Art and Design. Can you share with us some of your journey in that? You–you also did mention, like your parents weren't too keen, I wonder if there's stories behind that?

00:28:39.360 - 00:28:51.210

Yeah, they weren't too keen at first. And I–I could say they still aren't too keen now. But I think just after the first year, they saw how serious I was about it.

00:28:52.090 - 00:29:05.680

Like I would come home and then I would, that's—I would do that and like study and practice all the time. And they saw that and then that kind of like, chilled their–chilled their worries or their anxieties a little bit.

00:29:09.880 - 00:29:21.900

Yeah, so as far as—and then–and then even now, they–they see that the, the financial side isn't totally working out. Or I guess I struggle with it.

00:29:22.130 - 00:29:32.210

It works out sometimes pretty well. But I do struggle with it. And then they're always like, "you can always go back to school. You're still young." And they're not wrong.

00:29:32.910 - 00:29:51.920

But at the same time, I'm still trying to make the—I don't know if I'm still trying to make the art career work. That's also something I'm currently dealing with. But when they, when they would say that stuff now, like,

00:29:51.920 - 00:30:10.140

it's usually not, I don't usually want to hear it. Because it's not supporting me and what I'm trying to do, it's telling me like to, they're telling me to do—go, go at it in another way. I mean, it's coming from a loving place, but that's

00:30:10.140 - 00:30:27.620

how it's, you know, it's the whole parents-telling-you-what-to-do thing. Okay, and then in–in college, in college, I was definitely a workaholic. I definitely got that from my upbringing for sure. I would

00:30:28.080 - 00:30:45.240

always—okay, so there would be class, and then I'd have a work study job for like, 15 hours that I would use to pay my like rent and expenses. And then every other time, I would like, it was, it was me either taking care of like the stuff I needed, like hygiene or

00:30:48.540 - 00:31:00.520

like chores or like cooking and stuff. And then, and then if not that, then I'd be in the labs, working on some project. So I was definitely a workaholic. And definitely, it also

00:31:00.520 - 00:31:11.540

affected my social life. I had good friends there that I cared a lot about. But I was, I would always like snub invitations to go out, to work instead, which is something

00:31:12.200 - 00:31:26.060

I–I wish I didn't do. But I definitely realized, like, the workaholic part needed to come out during that time in my life. It was–it was nice to be in a

00:31:26.060 - 00:31:41.790

community full of artists. Because I think it's, it's definitely hard to find people that like want to make art their lifestyle in Houston—or not in Houston, just, just in general.

00:31:45.240 - 00:31:59.540

So that was really nice. And I have a lot of good friends I still have now, thanks to it. Like, if a young person asked me about college, I would say you definitely don't need it; but you should find the community part of it

00:31:59.540 - 00:32:13.080

somewhere, ‘cause I think that stuff's really important. The techniques, and all that, and the mentality even, you can even find it online, you can even YouTube it, you know, they have classes online now too,

00:32:13.920 - 00:32:28.240

that are much cheaper than going to a traditional college. If anything, that—the community experience is, is, I think was definitely the best part. Because I mean, it's even—the friends I made there, like I still visit

00:32:28.410 - 00:32:46.450

and call and talk to now, and they are people that I can relate to on a level that I can't with friends back home, you know. So that–that was really important. Yeah. That's great.

00:32:47.000 - 00:33:03.100

And can you share with us some of the community that you're with? From college or from home or what? From either, from all over the place... My communities I guess?

00:33:07.440 - 00:33:24.760

I saw that you worked on Alief Art House, one of their mural projects. I wish I was more—I wish I was more involved with them. But I think I just, I did their—I did the mural for

00:33:24.760 - 00:33:39.730

their house and, and I didn't, I haven't really attended any of their events. I mean, I'm not, I'm not in town now. But, but I do like—if anything I just, I just share their stuff on social media.

00:33:39.920 - 00:33:59.380

But I guess that's something that I wish I did better, to be more involved with, with those guys. Communities though, I guess–I guess in Alief, I'm still friends with a good chunk of people I

00:33:59.380 - 00:34:17.120

went to school with. I'm involved with a children's book group in—they’re–they're national but they have chapters in each, in most cities, and Houston has one of them.

00:34:18.070 - 00:34:34.710

Before COVID we would meet up like every Friday at a–at a cafe to just you know, talk about the business, or art, or just be a support group for each other. So that's been very, very good to

00:34:34.710 - 00:34:53.220

me. And then the college friends group... Those–those–those are guys that, like, we don't have to talk for a while, but every time I hit them up, then we can talk like we never, like time hasn't passed.

00:34:56.860 - 00:35:11.650

And as far as communities go, that's–that's kind of it, I think. I think currently, I've been thinking about communities more, and how important they are to me, like, so how, so I'm thinking

00:35:11.760 - 00:35:29.470

like, how can I do something that would cultivate, either create or give back to, or–or allows me to be a part of a larger community. So I've been thinking about that.

00:35:32.850 - 00:35:49.170

Yeah. And you also mentioned that your teacher from high school, or from the Columbus School of Art and Design, actually, has, like, submitted your project into a number of grants, and you were able to get them.

00:35:49.170 - 00:36:04.360

Can you share with some of—I don't know if I'm covering it thoroughly here, but there's one in 2018, which is the year you graduated from Columbus, a Houston Arts Alliance grant

00:36:05.010 - 00:36:20.740

on the "Support for Artists and Creative Individuals," which—is that the one that you did the murals with? And anything else that—yeah, please, please do share with us.

00:36:20.740 - 00:36:32.470

So that one, that one wasn't—no teacher was involved in that. That was the one, after I came out of school, I was looking for work.

00:36:33.110 - 00:36:47.250

And then one way to–to get some income was to apply for these grants. And then this one was, it was a very flexible one. Because they–they had like, they're like, "okay, we can give you this

00:36:47.250 - 00:37:00.970

much. But you have to propose a project to us. And then if we like it, we'll fund it." So basically, I could just, like come up with whatever project I wanted to do. And then give it to them.

00:37:00.970 - 00:37:16.720

And then if they say, yeah, then cool, and if not, then you know, there's no harm done. So, yeah, so it was like, one, I needed to make money, but two, this was a great opportunity to put murals in Alief,

00:37:17.570 - 00:37:38.450

which–which I thought would be like, super cool. And yeah, yeah, I got basically they, they give you the Okay; or they accept it, and they let you know in—that was like at the end of 2018, and they, it was 15k, then they give

00:37:38.450 - 00:37:52.440

you it half upfront in the front, and half in the back. So the beginning, like in January, February, they gave me the first half, and then after I finished everything, and then like February next year, they gave me the second half.

00:37:53.860 - 00:38:11.410

So I'm in—I don't, I don't live a very lofty lifestyle, as you can see from my background. So that–that money went a long way, for sure. But it just, it also gave me the opportunity and the

00:38:11.410 - 00:38:24.430

experience of doing a mural in the place I grew up in, which was super cool. And I definitely have my own feelings about that project. But I was, I'm very grateful to have done it.

00:38:30.020 - 00:38:48.440

Yeah, and can you share with us some other projects that you were part of, like the "Fox Power Team"? Oh, that was, I was trying to sign up for a second credit card to like, make taxes easier, like put business stuff

00:38:48.440 - 00:38:59.200

on one side and then other stuff on, like, and then personal stuff on the other one. And then that lady referred me to a CPA. So Fox Power Team is a CPA

00:39:00.110 - 00:39:11.750

team. So I got in contact with them. And then they did my taxes and all that stuff for me. They're great. Shout out to them. And they–they commissioned

00:39:12.660 - 00:39:24.560

me to do a piece for their lobby. So that's what, that's what that one was about. And that was also happening at the beginning of COVID. So I was gonna work on it in their lobby, but because of COVID I had to like

00:39:25.170 - 00:39:37.410

work on it in like my, my little room at home so I like rearranged like, like my bed, like I was sleeping like in the middle of the room and then I had like the boards on like the three walls.

00:39:38.400 - 00:39:55.780

And it was–it was really messy, but it was–it was–it was a good time. Yeah. That's great. And during your college years, did you kind of grew close relationship or friendship with some

00:39:55.780 - 00:40:14.260

of the other artists? Like have their styles influenced your style, or how did your artist persona like kind of developed, I guess? That's an interesting question. Let's see.

00:40:15.490 - 00:40:32.440

Okay, so I guess, I think, I think this is a trend for most artists. But like, at the beginning, I was more focused on the techniques. So that kind of made my art very decorative. Like, I

00:40:33.330 - 00:40:45.650

was proud of it, if I could, like, do that anatomy, right, or, like, the values, and the value structure was really good. And I would want to share it, and then I would call it finished, then as—and then after I got like, some more

00:40:45.650 - 00:41:04.800

mastery with that, then I could manipulate the techniques a bit more to, to support like an idea or a message. And then that's when I pivoted from, from doing more, just more, I guess, more decorative stuff that looked good to

00:41:05.340 - 00:41:17.730

stuff with more story. And then that's also when I got into like comics, and character design, it was character design first, and then I was like, "Okay, this isn't enough, I want these characters to

00:41:17.730 - 00:41:30.950

also move." So then I also got into the comics. So that's, that's how—I don't know if that's persona. But that's how my focus has moved within

00:41:30.950 - 00:41:47.630

art. And then friends definitely affected that. Stylistically, I've kind of kept to the style that I–I enjoyed a lot as a–as a–as a high schooler.

00:41:50.450 - 00:42:04.870

But my friends would get me into like, like comics, like I didn't—I was not introduced to American comics until college. And then one of my good friends, well he was–he was all about American comics,

00:42:04.910 - 00:42:25.490

you know. So he would kind of, like, recommend me stuff and get me into it. I think it's definitely because of him—his name's Ethan—that I got into comics. And, I mean, I think comics is a good medium,

00:42:26.160 - 00:42:40.330

because I can use the skills I developed as an illustrator. But then now also wrap, wrap it around a story. And then, like, I'm

00:42:40.330 - 00:42:58.330

always—I was always interested in, like, anime and movies and stuff. So comics is, is really like just one step away from that, like you, like you hear about all the time, like people develop comics into movies, or shows and

00:42:58.480 - 00:43:18.670

stuff. So friends that I had in college definitely influenced how, how I developed as an artist, for sure. That's wonderful. And I really admire the techniques like you could,

00:43:19.560 - 00:43:34.340

yeah, render in those storytelling, and that's really visually compelling as well as the concepts behind them. And I'm just curious, how did you develop those techniques? Like did you, did your training at the Columbus school help?

00:43:39.160 - 00:43:59.210

Or was it mostly self taught? Mix of both. The school was definitely more emphasized illustration. But then they also like encouraged me to dabble in other things like 3D modeling

00:43:59.380 - 00:44:14.520

or animation. So I got—I kind of like, was able to experiment during my time there. But a lot of, a lot of things I had to learn on my own, like a, like a deeper understanding of color theory, or like, anatomy.

00:44:21.430 - 00:44:39.210

Yeah, what was the rest of the question? I guess it—you have self taught your techniques, and how did you develop your style and techniques? Oh, that's a hard question.

00:44:42.980 - 00:44:58.300

Let's see. In—okay, so there's—there–there was a moment. In high school, there was a website called Deviant Art, where artists would post their, their art and then people can come and view it

00:44:58.330 - 00:45:12.460

and stuff. It was more like a gallery. It was more similar to a gallery than how like Instagram is. And I met, I-I-I didn't meet but I–I found a guy named Sergei Starco.

00:45:13.870 - 00:45:28.760

He's–he's either Russian or Ukrainian, like, like, at least like East European. But I really, for some reason, I connected with his work, and I still do now. There, there wasn't

00:45:28.830 - 00:45:48.840

any explicit meaning like that. But it was, he created these, these like, glimpses into these worlds, where it was, where things like just didn't like—not that it didn't make sense—like you could

00:45:48.840 - 00:46:03.000

tell like, there was life here, like there was a story, like something was going on; but it was not anything that you've seen before. So there was like a wonder and awe associated with it, that really, like captivated

00:46:03.000 - 00:46:18.670

me as like a, like a 13-year-old kid. And I–and I guess still now. So–so when I talk about my own style—I don't even like talking about my own style, it feels a little pretentious.

00:46:20.980 - 00:46:37.190

But–but I would have to credit him for–for that. I think a lot of my tastes also stems from that, too. Like, it's–it's a lot of sketchy graphite work that I–I prefer now,

00:46:39.260 - 00:46:55.450

as well. It's—I mean, it is—it’s not like—and if you compare it to like the, I guess like what's popular, or like, I guess what other people are doing, a lot of people are doing like digital, or like, highly rendered, and color.

00:46:55.450 - 00:47:12.630

And I don't know, color is not a—it’s not–it's not a new thing. But I don't know, I don't know if this is because of him, or if I've always preferred it. But there's, there's a lot of power in a black-and-white image that sometimes a color image can't

00:47:12.630 - 00:47:26.330

produce. So yeah, that's where it astounds, I guess. Thank you. Yeah, I totally can see that sometimes the absence is more than the presence.

00:47:27.040 - 00:47:41.960

And, and I'm actually also amazed by the kind of different styles you can encompass in the different stories that you were working on. For example, the "Bayou Kings" is like a very—like

00:47:42.300 - 00:47:57.480

the lines are very kind of linear, whereas the surface is very flat, or as your other projects like the "Bubba Stories," it's like so well rendered, and you can, it's almost three-dimensional with your techniques.

00:47:59.070 - 00:48:14.640

And many of your other comics are also really different in styles, like, how did you develop all these styles in, yeah, in–in your career? It makes me embarrassed when you talk about that stuff.

00:48:19.710 - 00:48:33.290

I—It's–it’s—I guess, it's not super conscious, developing style. It's more so like, what I'm gravitating to, or just wanting or am interested in at the time.

00:48:33.560 - 00:48:48.060

And like, I will experiment with that and try to incorporate that into whatever I'm doing. So, so it's hard to answer the style stuff, because it's not really something I

00:48:48.060 - 00:49:02.060

was conscious about when I was doing these things. It just kind of happened to be because I wanted to try and make this thing look good. And this is how I thought it would look good. And I

00:49:02.060 - 00:49:18.980

guess it might be a painful question to answer again, like... Yeah, you–you kind of mentioned that it's been a kind of difficult journey to monetize your art. Can you share with us how–how–how

00:49:21.050 - 00:49:38.120

it has been for you to kind of make a living as an artist? Sure, sure. I was more, I was–I was definitely more, more keen on it coming right of college because I

00:49:38.120 - 00:49:53.820

wanted to, you know, use my, use my skills to, you know, make a career for myself. And in some ways I did. Like I-I-I did a good chunk of neural stuff. I'd—I had a lot of commissioned work and it was, it was working

00:49:53.820 - 00:50:06.920

out. I wasn't making like boatloads of money, but it was working out. But, it just, it wasn't satisfying. Because... I wasn't doing what I wanted to do?

00:50:06.920 - 00:50:19.700

I was, I was making projects for people and i-it was paying me. It was helping me like live my life, I guess. But it wasn't, it wasn't fulfilling because I was doing other

00:50:19.700 - 00:50:32.560

people's projects for them in a way, you know. I mean, some–some projects were nice and they like encouraged me to, you know, be me in it. And those, I mean, those were, you can't expect that for all the projects.

00:50:34.200 - 00:50:50.390

But, that kind of led me—I mean, that experience kind of showed me that path of-of, you know, working freelance. And I knew that this was—that there

00:50:50.390 - 00:51:01.280

was a ceiling to this. And it wasn't, it wasn't gonna take me to where I wanted to be. And I couldn't, I-I probably couldn't—I don't even know if I can articulate it too well now—but

00:51:04.850 - 00:51:19.610

I knew that—so then, so then I knew like, "okay, so, so what, what am I going to do? Am I—is not art not the way to go?" So, I've kind of pivoted over

00:51:19.670 - 00:51:37.220

to a different passion, which is, I guess, traveling. And it also felt like because art was so demanding that I couldn't, I couldn't do a lot of other things. Like, I used to play video games all the time.

00:51:38.750 - 00:52:01.100

But then I stopped, because I got, I got serious about art, you know? Same with like watching shows and, and these other interests. So, so right now... I’m less focused on just

00:52:01.140 - 00:52:17.420

pumping out art and more focused on, I guess, I guess indulging in these other—not pleasures, but other, other things I want to do. Because a-after some time of doing this art stuff for so long, I

00:52:17.420 - 00:52:32.650

kind of was—not losing my identity, but my identity was just wrapped up in art. Like I-I-I wasn't able to describe myself any further than like, "I just make art," you know?

00:52:33.530 - 00:52:53.370

And that was kind of like embarrassing—or not embarrassing but like, it felt, it felt like a sign. You know, like, artists are—I wish I didn't say that—but people that make art, like they're, they're more than just—artists are more than just artists, you know.

00:52:53.450 - 00:53:05.480

Like they're, they're people too. And then I was kind of losing that part. Like I wasn't letting myself do these other things that I liked. And then that kind of... came out in my

00:53:05.530 - 00:53:24.080

art, in the art being less life-filled? You know, like it was—I guess more generic is a way to say it. And I was, I was feeling that. Maybe people couldn't see that, but I was feeling it myself.

00:53:24.200 - 00:53:39.300

And I feel like that's—as the creator of something—that's probably more important than what other people think about it. As, as selfish or as stubborn as that might sound. Like the feeling I have when I make something,

00:53:41.550 - 00:53:56.320

I mean, dictates how I feel about it. Usually after as well. Like I can't, I can't be excited about something if I'm not doing something exciting. And eventually it

00:53:56.320 - 00:54:13.680

wasn't exciting anymore because—I don't know, it was—there wasn't much to work off of. I wasn't really living life. There wasn't much—the ideas weren't really happening. I was just pumping out art. So yeah, so, so now—I feel I've veered off the question.

00:54:15.880 - 00:54:33.050

But, I guess right now, I'm just—I still, I still have the desire to make art. And I-I kind of—it was, it was definitely a toss-up, ‘cause I was like, "oh, if I

00:54:33.050 - 00:54:49.330

stopped doing it for a while, maybe I'll just lose the desire completely." And I-I'm, I'm glad that it's still there. Maybe it's too late now to totally give up art. It'll always be a part of, like, what I do, I guess, or want to do.

00:54:50.770 - 00:55:07.960

But right now, like, I've been, I've been traveling for over a month now. And the whole, the whole art thing is something I still think about. And monetizing it is something I still think about but... but I've

00:55:10.960 - 00:55:22.560

kind of been able to work through those thoughts. Like b-before they were just, like, constantly permeating anything I did. Like when I, when I

00:55:22.560 - 00:55:41.640

would make something, instantly I'd be like, "okay, how can I share this or build a project around it or monetize it?" Which is so gross, so gross. So, now those things, those thoughts don't come up instantly anymore.

00:55:41.760 - 00:55:54.570

Which I feel like is a step forward? So, so monetizing it—I think that was part of the original question—so monetizing was kind of taking—it was draining the life away from it.

00:55:54.850 - 00:56:07.240

And I don't think this applies to everybody. I don't think it applies to every situation. But because of my personality type to want to put my all into whatever I do, I'm more

00:56:07.240 - 00:56:24.490

of like a “do one thing and put my all into it” versus “do a lot of things and, you know, be okay with everything.” It was a mix of that and also my upbringing of–of success. There's the whole "success" word again.

00:56:24.590 - 00:56:45.120

I think you pulled that at the beginning of this talk, like how other people's journeys were kind of related to success. Yeah, but just like how I was, I was taught to learn, or–or the definition I was given of success growing up.

00:56:46.460 - 00:57:04.150

So, I guess now I'm just, like, redefining that and it definitely feels like counterculture or counter like, what my parents think or a lot of some of my friends think even. But I think that's, if—I think that's a part of my

00:57:04.150 - 00:57:19.490

growth right now, is to kind of separate these things and, and to not take it—not be too hard on myself, not just make art to make art, but to... make it mean something too, you know?

00:57:22.520 - 00:57:30.810

Yeah. I think I answered that question, maybe? Thank you for going into such d-depth. Do you mind if we take a two minute break? Sure. Yeah so—

00:57:30.810 - 00:57:43.770

I trust you, you guide me. Thank you. And next, I'm wondering how did you start this car life, lifestyle that you've been living this year, like, when did that

00:57:45.670 - 00:58:01.920

idea start coming into your mind? I wanted to do it for a while and I finally did it like a month and a half ago. The idea came—I knew a girl in college. She was, I think, two years above me.

00:58:02.090 - 00:58:12.930

And she was, she was doing this thing already, this car life thing already. And–and then she—well now she's, she's doing internationally. And she's been going to—I think she

00:58:12.930 - 00:58:25.180

went to like Iceland first. And then she went to Southeast Asia. And then now she's in like East Europe, in Ukraine or something. And then she got holed up there during COVID.

00:58:26.950 - 00:58:39.820

But hearing her story definitely, like, inspired me and showed me like, "oh, this can be done." And like she–she's solo. So am I. And then she started in

00:58:39.820 - 00:58:59.170

the US and she did it for six or seven months, I think, before she went to international. But I don't–I don't know—I mean, I feel like everyone says they want to travel to some degree. But after hearing her story, that kind

00:58:59.170 - 00:59:12.520

of—that–that planted the seed for sure. Like, "oh, I can do this" and then that, that seed was growing over these past two years. Until, until like the tree just couldn't be held in my head anymore and I just had

00:59:12.520 - 00:59:28.140

to do it, you know? So, I did like some small trips to test things out. And then–and then I finally made the decision to do—like I gave myself a date and then that day I'm going to ride out and not look back

00:59:28.730 - 00:59:35.430

and, yeah. It was—it wasn't easy. It wasn't an easy decision to make. I definitely was thinking about it for like months.

00:59:37.660 - 00:59:52.110

But, but I'm glad I did it. So how has it been like gone? And, and I know that like you're probably—your bedroom is your car now? Like how— do you get your necessities in life?

00:59:53.120 - 01:00:04.420

Do you want a tour? Yeah! Please! Alright, let me see. I mean, I can turn the camera around. Okay. Okay.

01:00:05.380 - 01:00:17.840

All right. So, the table—how amazing is this cooler? Mind the feet. And then this is the pantry. And then this is, this is kind of, like, where I just

01:00:17.840 - 01:00:30.990

stash everything. And then this is all the art supplies. I probably brought too many. And then this is the duffel with

01:00:30.990 - 01:00:45.690

all my clothes, I move that to the front seat at night. And then behind it, is like, a sleeping bag and comforter that I just pull out, roll out, and then I sleep in that with my feet stuck in the trunk. And then it, and then I can sit pretty

01:00:45.860 - 01:01:01.510

straight. Yeah, so that was lucky. And then I have these privacy things that I made at home to just block out the windows, I have in the front too. And in the back, you can see that I'm in a parking lot of a

01:01:01.730 - 01:01:17.240

casino. And, in the front is, you know, the front stuff. Packed–packed full of art supplies. And then this is like—that's all snacks.

01:01:17.470 - 01:01:32.280

And then right now, I was just with my cousins—they have an RV. So I was just with them until like yesterday. And then we split. So, I'm low on groceries.

01:01:32.280 - 01:01:42.800

So that's probably what I'm gonna do after this. But... yeah, and I leave the windows cracked a little bit for the air to flow out. But besides that, you know?

01:01:44.750 - 01:01:57.350

Yeah, I’m–I'm usually not in here much cause it can be—there's not much room to work with. So, like, during the day, I'd probably just be out.

01:01:58.260 - 01:02:10.920

Like if I wanted to, to draw or something, I find a bench or something. But I'm not—I don't, I usually don't spend a ton of time in here. Yeah. I'll turn it back around.

01:02:11.700 - 01:02:25.960

That's the tour. The Camry lifestyle. Wow, thank you for the tour. Of course. Yeah, it's amazing with life to be so like, I guess minimalism in terms of—do you—I-I-I'm

01:02:28.900 - 01:02:44.430

also curious, like, are you happy in this kind of life, lifestyle? Like, do you feel like—what are you missing? In case there's anything? I...

01:02:45.830 - 01:02:57.720

I am—I-I deal with—I definitely still deal with, you know, being sad and lonely. And afraid and, and all that stuff and anxious.

01:02:57.720 - 01:03:05.700

Especially anxious. You know. I still deal with all that stuff. Like I would if I was anywhere else or back at home in Houston.

01:03:08.880 - 01:03:27.420

But there's more—I think if anything, there's more to look forward to out here. Because I can— there's a lot to see. And that, that kind of helps me be hopeful, you know, and, and just like talking to random people also helps with that too.

01:03:27.420 - 01:03:38.390

And then this lifestyle offers me that. At home, I was—I wasn't, I wasn't a depressed fuck all the time. But I...

01:03:39.710 - 01:03:56.890

I-I keep a journal, and then I-I would notice every day I would write "so when's that car life happening?" You know? Like something like that, like constantly just weighing me down. So if anything, I'm doing this so I can, like, get that off my list of things to do,

01:03:56.890 - 01:04:11.350

you know? Just cross something off. Missing—I'm going solo. I do miss, like—in one of my friend's post, like, they've been hanging out and stuff.

01:04:11.350 - 01:04:22.850

I do miss that for sure. That even makes me think like, "oh, I should go back" and stuff. And like "why am I doing this?" But, but at the end of the day, I definitely

01:04:23.330 - 01:04:33.680

know why. And it's definitely, it's like, expanded my perspective. And it's something I knew like in my gut that I wanted to do. So I-I at least, I at least need to ride it out.

01:04:34.570 - 01:04:49.340

Even if, even if things go bad, that's fine. Cause I tried, you know? So... yeah, u-usually, usually it's just me like in my thoughts all day and like...

01:04:50.720 - 01:05:08.950

and I don't know if I can describe that as happy or sad—most of the time anxious, but I'm usually anxious. Yeah, that's–that's–that's how the emotions are like here. Wow. And I'm curious, how has your works kind of

01:05:09.060 - 01:05:22.330

been influenced by your change in lifestyle? Has it, has your feeling of anxious, anxiety or loneliness sometimes fuel into your art? Yes.

01:05:27.770 - 01:05:41.350

Yeah, i-it's, it has before too. But... this lifestyle, what it's–what it is physically, is like me in a car and

01:05:41.350 - 01:05:59.760

like going out and trying to do, do things I've never done before. But then, I guess, spiritually and mentally and how it's affected my creativity is... it's–it’s definitely— it–it signifies like a shift in values.

01:06:00.400 - 01:06:13.310

Like I'm not, I'm not doing... like I'm not just trying to make a living anymore. I'm trying to live a meaningful life, you know, or a

01:06:13.520 - 01:06:29.170

life with meaning—yeah, whatever. But that, how that’s affected the art is I'm a lot more—I've been exper-experimenting a lot more, and before, maybe I was just sticking to stuff that was

01:06:29.170 - 01:06:44.520

safe. Definitely more open to that, but I'm also more open to—let's see, I guess exploring art in different ways?

01:06:44.570 - 01:06:58.620

Like especially through writing, I guess. Exploring my thoughts through writing and not being so caught up in producing something that I

01:06:58.620 - 01:07:12.010

can, I can share with people. Just making stuff for myself. So I've definitely taken a step back as far as that, as far as... I guess—not career

01:07:13.170 - 01:07:32.960

but—yeah, probably career, like, that path towards making a career out of my art. But I'm, I’m less married to that idea, for sure. Because if it doesn't, if it doesn't work out, if it doesn't align with the things that I want—the other things that I want, you know, I would love to make a career out of my

01:07:32.960 - 01:07:48.660

art but if it doesn't align with the rest of the things I want in life, then, then maybe that's not what I really want, you know. So... what was the question? You answered it. Oh, good.

01:07:51.240 - 01:08:07.560

And I’m also curious, how do you support yourself financially during this lifestyle? Good question. So I-I had some money saved up from art stuff that I kind of keep as like, I guess, in savings?

01:08:08.290 - 01:08:25.290

And then, what I've mainly been doing for money is Doordash. Apparently you can do it in every state. So like I would go to some city—like I'm about to go to Portland for the weekend and just work Doordash for the weekend.

01:08:26.020 - 01:08:41.870

And it pays for like all my expenses and then even a little more depending on how much I work. But I don't even work that much. I work maybe like, like 15 hours a week. And then the rest of the time, I'm like trying to find

01:08:42.390 - 01:08:58.730

another mountain to climb, you know? So, that's how it's been. And where are you going next, next your—in your journey? I'm going to somewhere in Oregon, the

01:08:59.560 - 01:09:12.870

weekend is Portland, and then east of it is a mountain my high school art teacher was recommending to me called "Tom Dick and Harry" Mountain. So I'm gonna go check that out.

01:09:13.650 - 01:09:25.610

And then after that, I'm not sure what to do. This is usually how things go. Like I don't, I don't really know what I'm gonna do next. And I-I could research it but I don't because it's just kind of fun

01:09:25.610 - 01:09:45.240

like that. But I do want to hit—there's–there's a lot of really beautiful national parks in Utah. So I'm gonna make my way there. And then mid-May, I'm gonna meet my high school art

01:09:45.240 - 01:10:03.910

teacher in New Mexico because I'm house sitting for her when she goes on vacation. Yeah. That's what's next. That works out nicely as well. Well— Yeah, it is, it is.

01:10:04.510 - 01:10:17.570

You can literally walk outside and walk out—walk up a mountain. It's, it's super nice out there. Yeah. And have you encountered any surprising like,

01:10:19.850 - 01:10:37.670

like—met any friends, new friends on your journey, or any anecdotes that you can share? In–in a lot of these parks, people—especially I guess, as a solo traveler— people are not always down to talk.

01:10:38.070 - 01:10:53.770

But I've met a lot of people at these parks, for sure. And a lot of them are friendly. Yeah. I think in Big Bend, I met like—like I had dinner with these guys.

01:10:55.330 - 01:11:11.740

And then one guy even like gave me a ride back to the parking lot. And then we talked about politics and stuff for like almost an hour. And then a guy even offered me a job in Yellowstone, which...

01:11:14.800 - 01:11:28.930

I think I'm gonna do. But the–the job, I-I called for it and they were staffed, they're booked for the season already or fully staffed. So—but I still wanted—I still would like the idea of working out there.

01:11:29.600 - 01:11:41.810

I'm still thinking about if–if I should do it or not, but I think, I think it's a yes. So I-I'm going to try—probably after this—I'm going to try and apply for stuff over there.

01:11:42.610 - 01:11:55.160

But the guy that planted that seed in my head was from Big Bend, which was like the first park I visited. And then along, all along these parks, you're meeting a lot of different people.

01:11:55.430 - 01:12:10.990

Like there was a traveling nurse I met in the Grand Canyon that, that was camping down in the—by the river. There was a guy that is just trying to do a marathon in every

01:12:11.580 - 01:12:27.240

state. And he—and on his breaks he goes and hikes these, these crazy hikes. I'm not good with the whole a-anecdote and memory thing, but

01:12:28.270 - 01:12:45.030

there's–there’s stuff all over. And–and it's—I think the general feeling I get from it is that people... I guess, I guess if you're open then people

01:12:45.190 - 01:12:56.720

tend to reciprocate. Like–like on these trails, I'm usually asking people how they're doing. And a lot of the times, that sparks a conversation.

01:12:59.090 - 01:13:16.580

And like growing up in a relative—like I guess Alief isn't exactly a city, but Houston has a very big city. And that the mindset of, of like hustling and grinding is—it

01:13:18.420 - 01:13:29.650

can kind of like leave a bad taste in, in people. Especially between one another when, like, you're like stepping over people to like get the, get–get

01:13:29.720 - 01:13:46.100

the, get the work or the job or the—or just to make ends meet. You can't like offer as much patience and time to somebody. So, going on these trails and hikes like, I guess it's like a faith—restores like a faith in humanity type

01:13:46.100 - 01:14:07.960

of thing. Yeah, yeah. It's–it's been, it's been a net positive. And I'm also curious, like, you brought up politics a while ago. And in your body of works and this

01:14:08.090 - 01:14:26.870

fantastical kind of—yeah, like unreal but beautiful and innocent journey and of these personas in your, in your stories, have, like, your identity or any of the, like—as we all experienced last

01:14:26.870 - 01:14:45.180

year and this year, there's a lot of things going on that is very disheartening to many of us. So have kind of the pain and then the real world impacted your, your fantastical world in t-the

01:14:46.480 - 01:15:03.410

art? Can you see—think is doing that in any point in your life? Doing what at any point in my life? Sorry. Yeah, that like kind of allowing the kind of

01:15:03.990 - 01:15:15.670

ugliness of the real world. Like we were hearing the shooting in Atlanta And all the people like—n-not just Atlanta, but like I think a week ago, we had

01:15:15.670 - 01:15:31.620

another one. That was some— yeah, just, just very heartbreaking stories like that too. Yeah. And now, a-and on the news and daily lives. And do you allow these sadness or politics or

01:15:32.340 - 01:15:47.850

kind of—as–as I know that you had contributed to racial justice courses—like do you see that kind of more activist, a-activism, or advocacy side being more engaged in your art?

01:15:50.290 - 01:16:06.220

That's a good question. I guess the closest thing I got to that was when I did—I was part of a team and we put together this zine. We got a bunch of artists and friends onboard to promote it and

01:16:06.220 - 01:16:21.920

then all of, all the profits would—went to support racial justice organizations and stuff. That's the closest I've been to it in that sense, I guess a-activist sense.

01:16:23.940 - 01:16:38.750

But when–when I do hear this stuff, it definitely, it was definitely—it is definitely impactful on me as a, as a person. Like it–it is—it’s a constant reminder of the fragility of human lives and

01:16:39.190 - 01:16:52.870

how nasty we can be. I think it's important to relate yourself to these people and like see how... like how this can—how–how this

01:16:52.870 - 01:17:11.550

is our current reality and how it can happen. And like, and even like—what was it—not reason with the–the–the bad guy, I guess, but to understand where they come from and how you can—how

01:17:12.570 - 01:17:28.740

that can happen among even people you know. But how it affects my art is—surprisingly, it–it hasn't really affected it too much. I'm not like

01:17:28.740 - 01:17:46.950

consciously like saying, "no, I don't want it to affect it." But if anything, these incidents are—they motivate me to keep going the way I'm going, but

01:17:47.690 - 01:18:03.270

harder, you know? I-I think, I guess, as an artist, it's important to be vulnerable and share your emotions and thoughts and stuff. And these,

01:18:04.010 - 01:18:22.770

these awful incidents, like they, they kind of, they kind of share like how important it is to do that for me. Because I think, I think, one, it's–it's kind of all I can do as

01:18:22.770 - 01:18:39.730

an artist. Like I can't, I can't tell people to like, don't do bad stuff. "Don't be racist." But I can, I can share, or I can... I can share my own experiences

01:18:41.320 - 01:19:02.740

and–and my vulnerabilities and maybe someone can relate to that and not feel as isolated or alone. And I don't know how it–how it–how it will affect or how it will help these incidences

01:19:02.740 - 01:19:17.250

that are happening—especially in America—but I'm sure across the globe of, of... racism and, and the, and these shootings. But I think that's–that's all I can do

01:19:18.310 - 01:19:29.470

to, to help. To basically live my most authentic life. And–and in some way that, I believe, will help

01:19:31.170 - 01:19:45.480

the world. That's a, that's a very, I guess, bold thing to say. But I don't know. That's kind of, that's kind of what I believe. I think that's how I can help. Yeah, totally.

01:19:46.720 - 01:19:58.700

And I feel like the way that you have created that world in your comics and illustrations is definitely really healing. And that world that we want to be in.

01:19:59.090 - 01:20:14.990

So thank you for what you do. And I'm also curious about you—as an artist yourself—view the Asian American artist representation in Houston's–Houston’s art scene? How do I view it?

01:20:15.590 - 01:20:36.370

Yeah, like do you think Asian artists are being appropriately represented for its importance, importance in the Houston art scene? Beats me. You guys probably have a better idea of that than–than I do.

01:20:37.730 - 01:20:51.510

With all your documenting work. I have no idea. I have no idea at all. I-I'm not, I'm not even—I wouldn't even say I'm very much involved in the art scene of Houston.

01:20:52.630 - 01:21:09.870

I kind of, I kind of keep to myself and to, like, my Alief community. Yeah, I don't know what's going on out there. And we're also curious, what do you do outside of making art?

01:21:10.090 - 01:21:28.120

Like what are some of your hobbies? Hobbies? A hobby of mine is worrying about making art. I like anime, I like manga.

01:21:28.250 - 01:21:42.150

I like to play games. I don't do any of those things as much as I used to, and I miss it. I like to—now I like to hike a lot. I like to

01:21:42.680 - 01:21:58.240

travel and see new things. I like to... I like to read—I guess you could say read, manga is reading. That's kind of it.

01:21:58.780 - 01:22:09.480

I'm open, I'm open to trying things. I went snowboarding for the first time like two weeks or a week and a half ago. That was fun. Trying new things as a hobby maybe.

01:22:11.970 - 01:22:28.300

Yeah. Yeah, nothing—not, not too much, not too much as far as hobbies go. Still a little boring. What kind of manga do you read? I remember latest Attack on Titans has just concluded, it's—

01:22:29.350 - 01:22:50.820

Do you keep up? Not like all the time. But I started watching when I was, yeah, in–in college. I-I—when I was back in Houston I would–I would watch it with family. But I don't–I don't follow it as much

01:22:50.820 - 01:23:06.140

as they do. It–it is good though. Is it—d-did you said it concluded already? Yeah. It concluded about a week ago. Yeah. Okay, maybe–maybe I should go and watch

01:23:09.490 - 01:23:24.200

them. Have the manga or the video games—I guess manga will probably, yes, but how about the video games? Has it been kind of influential in your work? I think so. I think so.

01:23:24.770 - 01:23:37.950

I guess, I guess the most prominent video games in my life were MapleStory, back when I was like in elementary, intermediate middle school age. And then in high school, there was a lot of League

01:23:38.160 - 01:23:51.080

of Legends. But that doesn't—it hasn't influenced my art much. Or I-I haven't seen it influenced that much. But I played with a lot of friends and that was fun. And then since then, I haven't played too much.

01:23:52.170 - 01:24:00.920

The most recent one I played was called Hades. And the art in that thing is beautiful. The music's pretty nice too. It's a fun game. If

01:24:01.160 - 01:24:12.760

you're into games, I'd recommend it. But, yeah, that's the most recent one. Yeah, as far as games that's, that's kind of it. I-I want to play more.

01:24:13.080 - 01:24:26.390

Like I'm interested in playing a lot of story driven games now like Undertale and then they made this, like, Asian one that's similar to it. And then also like the Mother series, and yeah—I

01:24:28.380 - 01:24:39.780

feel like it's kind of lame to talk about these things I haven't played yet. But there’s a lot of time to play these games, you know? Especially like on the road, it's hard to, it's hard even to find electricity to do all that stuff.

01:24:43.890 - 01:25:01.300

Great. Well it definitely adds to the kind of variety in your life. Also, I'm curious, what are your kind of—if that's something that you think about, that you plan to do in the future, like, what do

01:25:01.300 - 01:25:18.590

you see yourself doing next 5-10 years? Oh... hard question. I don't even know what I'm gonna do this summer. Let's see what—okay, so

01:25:20.320 - 01:25:36.650

what do I want in five years? I've come to learn that a lot of pain and sadness come from having expectations. So I try not to have expectations.

01:25:37.580 - 01:25:51.700

But things that I know that I am, I'm heading in the direction of, are like being more involved with a community. It-It's hard on the road, for sure.

01:25:53.000 - 01:26:06.760

That's a—it's a give and take, I guess. Be more involved in, in a community or even make a–make a community.

01:26:11.830 - 01:26:24.750

I don't really have any expectations for my art. I think—I don't know, I wouldn't even be—I would be a little sad if I stopped making art all like entirely. But I have

01:26:24.750 - 01:26:40.610

that, I have that natural feeling to do it still, so. And I feel like that won't go away, so I'm not super worried about that. Like, art will still be something that I do. I'd like to make more money.

01:26:42.410 - 01:26:53.140

That's it. That's something I would like in this next five years. But even then—not even—it-it wouldn't be the end of the world. Traveling internationally would be really cool.

01:26:56.750 - 01:27:14.440

I think—I mean, I think I’ll–I'll probably do it. Like now that I've done this car life thing, it's like I could, I could probably do this anywhere. A-and also meeting a lot of people, that have

01:27:14.550 - 01:27:29.790

given me a lot of resources that I can use to make, like, even international travel a lot more manageable. Like there's this stuff called—I think it's called Workshare? Where you—do you know about it?

01:27:32.900 - 01:27:46.170

Yeah, I think I heard of it. It's like you go to another country and like instead of paying for lodging, you, you pay it in like working for their farm or whatever.

01:27:46.410 - 01:27:57.820

So like you're kind of—you're more involved in the community. But it also helps you pay for your expenses. So, like, doing stuff like that makes international travel a lot more manageable.

01:27:57.920 - 01:28:15.690

Like if you have—like if–if you worked a job and then you had like a month or two off, or like even a few weeks, you can like fly to some country, be hosted by some farmer, work on their farm while you like experience like a whole

01:28:15.690 - 01:28:31.190

'nother culture. Which I think is like—and it would be an amazing vacation, you know? So, yeah, they make, they make stuff like that and it's—like the–the resources and opportunities are out there, so

01:28:31.950 - 01:28:49.360

I can, I can see that happening too in the next five years. So, yeah, the long answer is—or short answer is: I have no idea. And I also want to mention Chloe Zhao's movie: Nomadland? I'm not sure you got a chance to see it.

01:28:49.360 - 01:28:59.250

Oh, I've heard of it. I haven't seen it. I've heard of it. I— Oh, go, go ahead. I'm not sure if—you might like it or might not.

01:29:00.770 - 01:29:18.580

Depends on if it realistically portrayed the life of, yeah, nomads like yourself, I think. I-I met a guy who—I think he, he either lives in a van or a car on the road and then he–he–he watched it and

01:29:18.580 - 01:29:31.300

then he was just like, "yeah, it was kind of boring because it was just like telling me stuff that I was already doing." But I think it'd be worth to watch, like, why not?

01:29:33.760 - 01:29:45.900

Yeah, it's like a—another lifestyle. But I mean, like yourself. It's new to the rest of us but— there's something in reality for you.

01:29:47.600 - 01:30:03.640

And I guess as we're approaching the end of our interview and I want to be cautious for your time, do you, do you happen to have, like, a kind of a message to put in the time capsule for the future self?

01:30:05.180 - 01:30:26.210

Oh… don't think too hard. Yeah. Don't think too hard. That's the message you would tell the future self?

01:30:27.240 - 01:30:45.790

Mhm. Whichever parallel universe, I guess. Yeah. Well, that was amazing! And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview? Not really—just like, thanks for having me.

01:30:45.790 - 01:31:01.410

Thanks for—I don't know, showing interest in me. Like, I-I haven't even been seeing myself as much of an artist but then you're here reaching out to me, like, "hey, I've been like looking at your stuff and I like the stories and like

01:31:01.410 - 01:31:15.550

even read some of them." So it's like—that's very, that's very flattering to me. So thank you for that. Well, thank you for your time and your presence and your work. I-I'm sure like many people out there will be

01:31:15.710 - 01:31:32.110

finding them really healing at this time, especially your—yeah. And the—kind of coming out of the pandemic, but at the same time, yeah, there's a lot of things going on. And art is definitely most healing and thank you for doing,

01:31:32.330 - 01:31:35.530

doing this. Thank you for having me.