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That's not a six, is it? Okay, so we're recording. It's a five. Okay. Okay, so um, where were you born and where did you grow up? Okay, my name is Ted Wu.

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I guess formal name is Theodore H. Wu Jr. I was born in San Antonio, Texas, in 1945. So I'm a war baby. Uh, my parents, uh,

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my mother was uh born in Arizona actually. She was— may have been the uh first Asian-American child born in Arizona.

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At that time Arizona was not a state, it was a territory. And she was the eldest in a family of nine. Uh, my father purportedly was born in Bakersfield, California.

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They... they— let's see, they met in, uh, in Tucson, Arizona. That's where my mother was born. And he was— she had a friend, by the name

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of Ted, and Ted had gone to California, um, San Francisco, for some sort of uh, Asian uh club, that time and it was a convention.

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And Ted met my dad, Ted, uh and so Arizona Ted invited my dad back to Tucson to visit. And uh, so what— as the story goes, Arizona Ted knew my mother and

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wanted to borrow her— she was extraordinary for her age, this was back in the early 1900's I guess. Uh, she had a car, and amongst other things, she was, uh, her family was not particularly—

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they didn't have a lot of money. They were bakers. Her father was a baker. So she told me stories of getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning, riding a buckboard to deliver the

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bread to the various customers. And heating the bricks in the oven, sitting on the bricks to keep her warm 'cause this is very cold desert nights, so she's driving this buckboard delivering bread, baked goods.

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Anyway, so she had a car back in those days, the name of the car was an Erskine. And Arizona Ted asked my mother, her name was Rose, if he could borrow the car to show his friend that was

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coming to Tucson to visit. And Rose says, "Yes you can borrow my car, but I'm gonna be the driver," so that's how my mother and father met. And uh, they met and had courtship of sorts, and

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then, uh they got married, they had a— blew a bunch of money on some big fancy wedding in some hotel in Tucson, Arizona. I— we have the old photographs. And they were virtually penniless after the

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wedding, and the story goes that well, where are they gonna go, they gonna get married and go back to the West Coast, or travel East on the railroad, and my father had some friends in San Antonio, and uh my mother was an

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interpreter for the federal courts at the time, I believe. And so she asked around, “Should I go West Coast or should I go to San Antonio, Texas?” and some of her elder, uh, I guess Caucasian elder friends,

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people she respected said, "Well Rose, I think you'd rather be a big fish in a small pond rather than a little— little fish in a big pond." So that meant, head to San Antonio. So they got on the train, train stops at San Antonio,

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uh he had lined up a job teaching Chinese language school in San Antonio, and they then worked for a friend in a grocery store. And uh, started their, their life in San Antonio.

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So I'm the youngest of 4 children, uh 3 sisters, and then I came along in 1945, at the end of World War II. So, and I was raised in San Antonio, went to school in San Antonio, uh,

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elementary school, middle school, high school, and then uh my father passed away when I was about 14 years old. And uh then college came along,

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so where was I gonna go to school— my parents really wanted me to be uh in the military, for some reason. They wanted me— they thought I could be a general. So, there was all this big push to go to West Point, uh I had a

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nomination, but I think because my- my father wasn't living at the time, my mother was a single mother, trying to raise a son and run a business and so on, that um I would stay closer to home.

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So I ended up at SMU in Dallas. And then a— you wanna hear more than that- after SMU, Vietnam War was going on, I uh joined up with the Navy, US Navy, went to Officer’s Candidate

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School in Newport, Rhode Island. Um, after that, uh transferred to the West Coast, caught a ship coming back from Vietnam, got transferred and— anyway, during the service, uh, ended up with— staffed with Commander Fleet Air

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Wing Ten uh which rotated 6 months overseas and 6 months in the States. Uh, overseas headquartered in um, um, the Philippines, at the air field

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called Sangley Point, and rotated out of Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam and U-Tapao Thailand. So, did that circuit during the 6 months, uh 1969 got released from the Navy, worked for about a

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year or so in Hong Kong and then uh ended up at law school by GI Bill, paid for law school back in San Antonio. And then from San Antonio, eventually moved to Houston, 'cause my wife is from Houston, that's how I ended up

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here. Alright. Um, what was it like growing up in your household, like, do you mind describing it for us? No, uh, well my parents were um...

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San Antonio is... at that point in time as far as Texas is concerned, probably had a larger Asian uh population, mostly Chinese-American population. Um, my, my

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father and mother had uh, at that point in time, were in the restaurant business. And they had worked up from working in a grocery store, then owning their own grocery store, then getting into the restaurant business.

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So, they had a series of restaurants. Um, and uh to-- with all due respect to them, they worked— they had worked very hard, they were— they had assimilated into the, into the mainstream society or Caucasian

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society. I think my father was the first uh rotarian in San Antonio in those days. This— we're talking late 30's, early 40's period.

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Uh, my mother was uh active in a lot of organizations. Uh, there's an organization called Eastern Star which is I believe the,

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at that time, in those days the auxiliary, the female auxiliary of uh, the Shriners. And I may be confusing some of these organizations. But she was very

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active, he was one of the first uh Shriners, Asian Shriners in the state of Texas, and went on to something, 32nd degree masons. What the--the level is now.

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Um, growing up, so at any rate, I— I don't feel like my upbringing was very focused on the Asian community. And so as— as from my perspective, um, I would have never thought that my circle

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of friends now is probably more, uh centered around the Asian community. Back in those days when I was growing up, I never would have thought that. Uh, example--I went to high school at

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a private school in San Antonio and the name was Texas Military Institute, TMI. And I was probably the only Asian kid in the school. Um, and so that was--growing up, I went to public

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school, elementary school, I was the only Asian student there. Uh, junior high school, I was the only Asian student there. And then on to high school, which was private and then on to college,

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and I think at that time, SMU was uh, uh I was one of the few Asian students at SMU at that time. And it—eight — the sports was under the Southwest Conference, and

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all the alignment now is totally different. But Southwest Conference was um, there were— there was color barriers, there were no black athletes in the Southwest Conference at that

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time and Southwest Conference is one of the major conferences, sports conferences in the country. And that line was broken by SMU when they recruited a black football player by the name of Jerry

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LeVias and that was in 19... around 65, around 1965. And I think Jerry LeVias lives in the Houston area and he'll give you all sorts of things that he went through in terms of

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breaking color lines at that time. Um, growing up, I had a very happy childhood, I think I can't— I can't complain. I, my mother wanted me to do certain things, she always was, I— I

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lost my father at an early age. But we were, he liked the outdoors, so he hunted and he fished and he liked to putter around in the yard. Um, which, I was a part of

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that I guess. And, and we'd go to the, all the--as far as Asian uh things were, he was uh you know fairly prominent in San Antonio and so he would be a, an officer in the various organizations and we'd go to the annual banquets and so on.

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As a kid what, I remember is that when you go to those banquets, there's always a round table, table of 10. And everybody took usually, uh, a Chinese meal. And I was left-handed, so my chopsticks

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were always sticking out to the left. And the first words out of all the other grown-ups was, you know, "Oh, you're left-handed!" you know, they would say in Chinese or Cantonese. So I always kind of felt a little odd about that, because I guess my parents didn't

00:12:21.410 - 00:12:34.660

try to make me be right- handed. So, that--that sticks out. Um, but I--I think growing up in San Antonio with the Hispanic influence over there, I really

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enjoyed it. I, my heart is back in San Antonio, it's a great place to grow up. But, by the same token, San Antonio is, is— growing up now, it's bigger, it's more of a, uh metropolitan, and it's

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crowded. Uh, but I like--what I liked about San Antonio was the sense of the um, the historical uh background that people sort of had a, had a feel for. If you compare San Antonio to Houston,

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moving to Houston, it was like franchise row. Everything was new, everything was brand-new, gleaming, and it almost seemed like a general society, you build it, use it up, and then when

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you're finished with it you throw it away and rebuild. San Antonio had a different uh perspective on things. So how would you describe your hometown in San Antonio?

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Like um, what sort of neighbors did you have and is there a reason why your parents sent you to the Texas Military Institute? Well, to take your last question first, the reason why I think they— my mother used to tell

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me that I was growing up like a weed. I remember this because she just didn't think I had much structure in my life. Not that I was a bad student, she just felt like I was...

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out there, and so they felt like the, you know going to a military school was uh, would give me that sort of structure. I, I think the other thing is that, as a single mother, because my father had passed

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away, she felt like this would be a way for me to I guess associate with other males and take a, a burden off of her in the sense that uh--lack--I didn't have a father figure so to speak at that

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age. Um, so... also, I think during World War II they were very active in, in the war effort, in terms of uh raising bond money for uh the war effort,

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uh, you had World War II where the United States was fighting Japan on the Pacific side, and of course at that time, you had uh a nationalist government on Chi— in China, and so

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the, the war effort of trying to support US, China, versus Japan, um, buying war bonds, uh entertaining uh soldiers and pilots from, from

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China that would come to San Antonio for uh training, they were all— uh my parents were active in all of that. So they had uh, a respect I guess for the military effort. And, and you know there's

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just something I got kinda— I never really talked to 'em about it but this is my per--perception of what I think they, they wanted. Uh and I can't, I can't complain, I mean uh I've--I've... friends that I've made--made in high school are lifelong friends.

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It was because of uh--I think back in those days, a lot of parents sent their uh kids to military school because they thought they were bad kids or they were--they needed the structure.

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I don't think we were quite that way but uh, uh, I feel fortunate to having, you know gone to a, a private school like that. So you mentioned your siblings.

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Where do they live and what do they do now? Are you guys still close? Um, my sister Barbara is the oldest, I think Barbara's about uh eighty, um, four years old.

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She lives in San Antonio. Uh, she's retired; she lives with her husband, uh Lincoln. And uh they live in San Antonio. They have um one son and he's

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living in San Antonio, as well. He's with Frost Bank there. Uh my second sister Mildred, uh, she's married to Luoyi Chan, he's a, an

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architect, uh retired. Mildred's about eighty, eighty-two years old. They live in Manhattan, they have a residence in Manhattan, but they spend a lot of time in the Berkshire Mountains in,

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in uh Massachusetts. They have uh, a country home that they spend a lot of time. They have 2 children--3 children, uh, Christopher,

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the eldest son, has an architectural firm in Cambridge. Um, the, and he's married. The second son Christopher is about--Chris must be about 50 years old as well. He's a physician, he's head of the um, the

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rehabilitation uh section at the National Institute of Health there in, in Maryland. And quite accomplished actually. And the uh, the third

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child is Laisha , she uh is a, is a uh, works with a financial uh estate planning entity. The third sister Priscilla, uh has, uh,

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she passed away, she had cancer. Uh she was the youngest, I think Priscilla and I were about 7 years apart, roughly. She had uh lived in Hong Kong, and uh her

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former husband William Wong, or Bill Wong— uh, they kinda worked their way across the Pacific and established a, an architectural firm in Hong Kong. They then divorced and she

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subsequently, you know, was diagnosed with cancer and passed away. She has 2 sons, uh, the eldest is York Wong, he is on the West Coast, he was uh principal in a real estate development

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firm and he's sort of semi-retired now, the guy made a fortune of sorts, I guess. And the second son Todd, uh, all these ne--these nephews are all around the, their 40's and 50's.

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They— Todd is married, he has uh a couple of kids. And he lives in Hong Kong, and he's--he's with um JP Morgan I believe. So he's full-time in Hong Kong.

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So that covers the immediate family. And I've got 2 kids. Uh, a son and a daughter. The eldest is, is Ted--we call him Ted 2, he's not

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really a "junior". I'm a "junior", and he's not really a "third". Ted Albert Wu is his name, and he is uh 35, he's uh, an executive with Mattel toy company in, in LA. And uh, the daughter Kristin,

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uh she just got married, uh her husband Michael is uh, with--he's in-house counsel with the Chicago Cubs baseball team in Chicago. So they live in Chicago, and she uh, Ted went

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to Brown, and then started with Mattel shortly thereafter, uh Kristin went to Northwestern, then went to uh USC in their physical therapy program and -- and got a doctorate in

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physical therapy. Anyway, she's a physical therapist in Chicago at the Chicago Institute of Physical Therapy. Um, how did you find your first job and what was it like working there?

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And what was your relationship with your boss and coworkers like? First job--well, first job after college or first job anywhere? Uh, both, let's talk about both. Okay, both. Uh, I really can't

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remember too much about working full-time when I was going to school. I don't really think I had a full-time job. I had uh a summer job, uh when the Astrodome first started in...

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it was first built, and I forgot the years, around 19--I wanna say 67. The Astrodome used to be the eighth wonder of the world. I got a job--my mother was in the

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restaurant business in San Antonio. And the, the uh, the— one of the food vendors, and I think it was Maryland Club Coffee, which may be owned by Coca-Cola Corporation.

00:22:20.270 - 00:22:37.430

The uh, the sales distributor in San Antonio, she asked him, um, "My kid needs a summer job." And he said, "Well why doesn't he apply with uh, Harry Martin Catering Company?"

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Harry Martin Catering Company in Houston, because they have the contract to, uh supply and manage and staff all the food concessions in the Astrodome, which was just being built at that time.

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So I applied with Harry Martin Catering Company, and got a job for the summer, uh as—uh, they gave me a title. It was Assistant to the Executive Chef. And the Executive Chef was a gentleman by the

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name of Jim Volpe. And so, what I did for the summer was, I was a go-for. Jim Volpe was, Volpe told me to do this, or do that. And I'd go run and do this, or I'd do paperwork, checking

00:23:28.220 - 00:23:45.320

purchase orders. So they would make food orders from vendors, and I would write out the order and sell . If the a--uh, the uh, the ball club was in town, you know I'd have to stay there doing the evening game and so on.

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So that was my first summer job. I really enjoyed that job. Uh, not that I was a big baseball fan, but it was just the--new, the Astrodome was built,

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um, I had a, a lot of you know fairly good responsibility, I had a good relationship— we had a fairly close-knit team. Uh, we all reported to

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the Executive Chef. The Astrodome had a lot of different um, food establishments at this--they had the skyboxes, which were— all the big companies would buy a box and they were catered,

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uh and--and the um, the butlers uh were another staff who I had a pretty serious incident one time. The, the staff was basically,

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for the skyboxes, were hired from--they were longshoremen who worked at the Port of Houston. And it was a, a closed deal in the sense that if you wanted to get a job as a butler to wait on the skyboxes,

00:25:06.740 - 00:25:22.010

it was rigged, because you had to go through the top, one--one or two of the top honchos. So these gentlemen that got hired, and they were all black, at that--during those days, they would have to pay

00:25:22.010 - 00:25:38.780

off the head butler under the table to get the job. And so the head butlers – there were about 2 or 3 of them – uh they ruled the roost up there. There was a service elevator that you had to have a

00:25:38.870 - 00:25:50.300

key to, to get on. And Mr. Volpe told me during one evening, said, "We gotta watch things— what's going on up at the skybox." So I— he

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gave me a key to the elevator and I went, I had access. And being the young punk that I was I guess, you know I just, kinda watching over everybody's shoulder. And one of the head butlers,

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he knew what I was there for. He invited me into a room, and then as I walked into the room--it was a storage room-- and he closed the door behind me and I knew, uh-oh.

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'Cause he was about 6 feet 4 inches tall, probably weighed 250 pounds. And he pulled out a knife. And what he was gonna do is--is threatening me to just, you know. "Don't get in my way, kid." And uh we got

00:26:39.570 - 00:26:54.140

into a big brouhaha, there was a, a cart, a service cart, and I remember grabbing the cart and just shoving it into him, and it was a fairly confined space, it was a storage room. So there wasn't a lot of room, and then I jumped and I'm hanging on to his neck with a

00:26:54.200 - 00:27:08.500

headlock and we're wrestling around there, and he couldn't— I was holding his arm with one arm, 'round his neck with the other, he's got me lifted off the ground. Finally we're stumbling around, all this--all this commotion, shelves falling over,

00:27:09.440 - 00:27:21.450

and there was a police officer, a security guard, heard all this and luckily, the, the police officer came in. Got in through the door, you know, stopped everything. Or uh, if it had not been, I

00:27:21.520 - 00:27:40.120

probably would be — have gone to the emergency room with all sorts of cuts and bruises. But I got outta that fray. And uh, subsequently I think the, that he was, the man was fired from the job, which I felt kinda bad about, but um, that

00:27:40.120 - 00:27:56.730

was one incident. Um, another incident, I got talked in by the salesmen at--that sold Jell-O, buying 5 cases of each flavor of Jell-O that they make.

00:27:56.730 - 00:28:08.070

And Mr. Volpe just blew his stack, he said, "Why--we don't use that much Jell-O!" And there are all these flavors of Jell-O, that get--got delivered one day, and he just, "What are you doing?!"

00:28:10.530 - 00:28:25.200

Um, another incident, I remember having to deliver fried chicken to um, I think Sandy Koufax was a very famous pitcher back in those days. And I mean, Hall of Famer, actually.

00:28:26.350 - 00:28:40.720

And he was down in the— I think he was a pitcher for the Dodgers. They were in town for a ball game and I was told to deliver a box of fried chicken to Sandy Koufax down in the locker room. Well I walked down in the locker room, delivered this box of chicken, there

00:28:40.720 - 00:28:55.870

Sandy Koufax is, he was, you know, big-time ball player. And he was suited up, he's the only one in the locker room, but he was drunk as a skunk. And this is a r--eye

00:28:56.580 - 00:29:15.370

opener for a young kid, first you know job in the major leagues, you think all these guys are heroes and there he was, you know, getting his fried chicken, and I got outta there. Um, job after school, uh, well, went to law

00:29:15.370 - 00:29:33.440

school and then got a job with a uh, real estate development firm uh headquartered here in Houston, it was a private firm--take it back. Got- -got out of the Navy, asked to be released uh,

00:29:34.030 - 00:29:44.830

in the Philippines rather than being sent back to California. Which is the normal procedure, you go back to California and then the Navy musters you out of the service at that point.

00:29:45.110 - 00:29:59.080

So I--I made a special request to— we were in the Philippines at the time to be released in the Philippines. So the idea was to do some traveling and then get back to the States and you know be released over there, and

00:29:59.960 - 00:30:14.950

uh--in the Philippines. But uh, went to Hong Kong, visited my sister in Hong Kong, and, at the time, there was a real estate developer by the name of Chin Ho...

00:30:16.960 - 00:30:29.280

there was a very--there was uh, a um, television show called Hawaii Five-Oh. Not the current one, but back in those days, the original one.

00:30:29.280 - 00:30:45.210

And one of the characters was named Chin Ho. Well, the character in the show was named after this particular Chin Ho, was a very famous gentleman. Purportedly one of the wealthiest, financially wealthiest, Chinese-Americans in the country,

00:30:45.210 - 00:30:57.420

in Hawaii. Mr. Ho uh owned several hotels in Waikiki, he owned the newspaper in Honolulu, and he owned a hotel in Hong Kong.

00:30:58.400 - 00:31:14.400

And this is in the late nine--late sixties. Around '69 or so. At that time um, China had not opened up. You had Hong Kong which is a, a British

00:31:14.460 - 00:31:27.890

colony, and China which was Communist-controlled, and really uh you could go up to the fence and look into the new territories and China on the other side but it was not open to the, to the West.

00:31:28.900 - 00:31:42.820

Chin Ho had this idea that uh China would open someday, so he wanted to establish a physical office in Hong Kong. The reason for the office would be to sell condominiums,

00:31:43.850 - 00:31:58.420

which he was developing back in Hawaii, the development was in Makaha Valley, which is close to Honolulu, outside of Honolulu. Makaha Valley was where there was a film, in the

00:31:58.630 - 00:32:12.610

last 10 years or so there was a--filmed in Makaha Valley, about World War II, I think. I think Ben An--Affleck may have been in the film. And he was developing Makaha Valley's resort

00:32:13.190 - 00:32:31.940

condominiums, golf courses, a convention center, so on. So my job was to promote and sell condominiums to, uh, wealthy individuals in Hong Kong. Which, I didn't--I didn't even know

00:32:31.980 - 00:32:44.190

how to spell the word condominium, much less have a concept of what a condominium was, because you know, I was born in Texas. In Texas at that time, no such things as condominiums. We just built out, we didn’t go up.

00:32:45.090 - 00:32:58.880

It was not high density living. So I remember, Chin Ho flew me back to Honolulu for sort of a training session, staying at the Ilikai Hotel, which he owned.

00:33:00.240 - 00:33:15.200

And across from the Ilikai was the Ala Moana shopping center. And I remember walking into a bookstore over there, just looking at a dictionary, how to--what is a condominium. Why I got hired, I have no idea .

00:33:16.370 - 00:33:31.180

And I had just gotten out of the Navy, young naval officer discharge, and I guess he thought maybe I could sell a condominium or two. But that was my first job uh after Navy, and after undergraduate

00:33:31.360 - 00:33:48.910

school. So I was in Hong Kong with this office, which uh he got and he--he was a visionary because subsequently China did open up with the Richard Nixon administration, and so on. So he, he knew something, he had a vision.

00:33:50.130 - 00:33:59.920

And he was absolutely correct. But I was a total failure at selling condominiums because I didn't sell one condominium, and subsequently was relieved of my duties.

00:34:00.570 - 00:34:17.480

Chin--the, the individual that fired me was um, his son, Stuart Ho. And Stuart had gone to Michigan Law School, and was a speaker of the House of Representatives in, in Hawaii, the local state government.

00:34:17.480 - 00:34:33.170

So it was a very prominent family, the whole family. Uh and uh, I remember, uh getting a call, and, "Meet in the lobby of the Mandarin Hotel, Hong Kong, in the lounge." And

00:34:34.330 - 00:34:49.360

Stuart was there and I was there, and um, you know he was very nice, but he just relieved me of my duties, and what I negotiated for was a plane trip back to the United States, it was

00:34:50.130 - 00:35:01.960

part of my severance. So that was the end of my career selling condominiums in, in uh, in Hong Kong. Subsequently went to law school, uh here in the United States.

00:35:04.100 - 00:35:20.670

And after law school, got a job, but it wasn't as a lawyer, it was working for a real estate company here in, in Houston, that had land in San Antonio as well. Um, so just going back to um your time in the military with the

00:35:20.670 - 00:35:32.540

Navy, um, could you just talk about how you liked it and why um, and how you liked traveling all over those different places? Well it wasn't--there wasn't a lot of travel involved.

00:35:33.440 - 00:35:46.500

The--the United States was involved with the Vietnam War, um, heavy, heavy losses, it was not a popular war. Um, when I was--

00:35:47.060 - 00:36:03.880

last year at SMU, there was a draft going on. And my draft number was very high, so I knew that as soon as I graduated I would be drafted. So what I did, is I went— uh I was in Dallas,

00:36:04.450 - 00:36:17.280

going to school. Uh, went down to the federal building, downtown Dallas. And just went down each r— they had the recruitment offices for the various services--would have an office in the federal building.

00:36:17.620 - 00:36:34.160

So I walk into the, the army recruitment. And um, they give you a battery of tests and so on. And I think I said, "Oh, I want to be an officer, what--so if I

00:36:34.160 - 00:36:50.200

qualify, get into officer's training school, what are the chances of uh being sent to Vietnam uh as a platoon leader uh, slogging around in the jungles as an infantry platoon leader?"

00:36:51.720 - 00:37:04.600

And the recruitment sergeant said, "Oh, about 98 percent." So I said okay. But the obligation as an officer, I think at that time was 2 years. So you would sign up for 2 years,

00:37:04.600 - 00:37:19.800

and that would be your hitch. And I went to the next uh recruitment office, which was the Air Force. And I was very naive at the time, I really had no plan, I just was trying to figure out

00:37:19.860 - 00:37:40.230

what's going on. And I don't, I really didn't take any of this very seriously, tell you the truth. Went in the Air Force recruitment office, and uh, I think they were trying to find pilots. And again, naive, uh, didn't know what I was doing, and he puts me in a, in a

00:37:40.340 - 00:37:55.040

booth, and this is for sound testing, hearing testing, eyesight testing, and then they give you some paperwork test. Uh, some of it to me was very theoretical, it's like, if you're in an airplane and you

00:37:55.040 - 00:38:06.070

wanna go left, what do you do? And I think they're trying to find out if you have a natural aptitude for flying an airplane. And then after all these tests he said, "Well, you're qualified

00:38:06.070 - 00:38:18.330

to be a pilot, if you wanna try to go to pilot training school," and so on. "Oh, well what's the obligation?" "Well, if you sign up, you have to become an officer. You go through officer's training and then on to pilot school, and it's a 5 year

00:38:18.450 - 00:38:33.580

obligation." And my mindset was, I just wanted to do my military service and--as an officer--and then when I get through, you know, I get through. Or if it turned out to be something I liked, maybe try to stay on, uh,

00:38:34.730 - 00:38:45.530

not realizing all the ramifications of all this. So, but the thing that I... stuck out to me was that if you do all this, you've got a 5 year obligation afterwards.

00:38:46.620 - 00:39:03.970

So I went to the Navy, and again I think because of the tradition of the Navy, you--you have a--I don't mean to be derogatory in this statement but you kinda have a Northeast establishment air about

00:39:04.880 - 00:39:22.030

it. Uh, because a lot of the Ivy League schools, and a lot of the past history of the Navy is, is um, somewhat based in Northeast establishment families, people, just the general culture up there.

00:39:23.550 - 00:39:38.580

So I go to the Navy and they give me a battery of tests, they didn't talk about trying to fly, pilot aviation or anything. Uh, but you know, okay, you did okay, and you know maybe you can

00:39:38.790 - 00:39:56.230

qualify for officer's candidate school, it's up at Newport, Rhode Island, and so on. And uh so, we'll let you know. Well, I'm--I had graduated from SMU, and I'm, I'm waiting for uh,

00:39:57.110 - 00:40:11.370

orders. I had rejected the army thing 'cause I didn't want to be an infantry officer. And so it boiled down to either I was gonna uh, be able to go to Air Force officer's candidate school,

00:40:11.440 - 00:40:22.960

or the Navy officer's candidate school. The Navy, the--the Air Force one would have been 5-year obligation, the Navy would've been probably 3 years, I think. Uh or maybe 4 years.

00:40:23.910 - 00:40:43.220

So I remember waiting in my mother's house in San Antonio, waiting for some sort of thing. Well, the Air Force acceptance came in first. And it was just a short letter, "Report to Lachlan Air Force base, class such-and-such, and if you wanna

00:40:43.220 - 00:40:57.450

accept this, you have a uh, you have to do it by a deadline," I think it was 2 weeks, to accept those orders. And on the thirteenth day the Navy one came in, and I was accepted to the Navy officer's--so, phew.

00:40:58.610 - 00:41:13.680

So I here I go off to the Navy officer's candidate school in Newport, Rhode Island. And that's a 16-week wonder where, I remember that-- that class I was in, and there--there

00:41:14.460 - 00:41:27.100

were uh, I was so impressed with the academic ability of the, the acceptance. I mean we had uh kids from MIT, Yale, Har— all the Ivies.

00:41:27.430 - 00:41:43.950

And here I was, some dumb Texan kid from SMU, and-- surrounded with these--these guys who are academically uh way far above me. Uh I remember my roommate, uh a fellow

00:41:43.950 - 00:42:00.490

that he went to Duke, he ran the 440--I mean this guy was really top-notch and I think he was probably you know valedictorian at Duke. But this guy was academically uh stunning,

00:42:01.980 - 00:42:13.700

unbelievable, and then athletically was just top-notch. But the only thing I really had going for me, uh, was the fact that I had gone to a military school.

00:42:15.110 - 00:42:28.320

And I knew how to march . And one thing, when you go into this officer's candidate school, they try to just strip you down in terms of uh, bel--belittling you to

00:42:28.320 - 00:42:42.700

the point of where you're just, they have a clean slate. So it's a lot of intimidation at the very beginning, uh we call it hazing now, and it w— it's probably outlawed. But that, that

00:42:42.740 - 00:42:56.660

constitutes the first week or two. And so all these guys with high academic credentials, they kinda got just mentally in a fog. I had been through this hazing bit 'cause I had gone to a

00:42:56.800 - 00:43:14.140

military school. So I--I was, I had built-in experiences, and was able to cope with it better. But I remember they--they were so befuddled, you'd be you know standing at attention up against a wall, and some senior officer'd come by, and they'd hit you with a

00:43:14.200 - 00:43:31.470

bunch of questions, and some of these guys were just starry-eyed, they couldn't answer, because their minds were just so intimidated, or they were just out of their element. Uh, but because of my experience I guess I was better able to cope with that and I could march.

00:43:33.020 - 00:43:45.890

And so marching was a big thing in the military, and discipline and training, etcetera, and because of my background I was able to kinda rise to a little bit of a leadership uh position, not

00:43:45.940 - 00:43:59.290

because of my academics. And the reason I'm— keep talking about academics is, they really pile a lot of uh academic study on you during that 16-week period that they're trying to

00:43:59.290 - 00:44:14.700

make--turn you into an officer, it was unlike anything I had ever undergone. The amount of material that you were— had to go over, and I never was a particularly proficient student to begin with, so it--it was difficult for me academically.

00:44:15.760 - 00:44:34.000

But the physical part, the military part, I could handle all that. So anyway, I become an officer, uh, and then uh signed up for communication school, rather than something like operations.

00:44:34.370 - 00:44:48.460

But uh, went on to communication school, again at Newport, Rhode Island, and received a, uh, a high clearance, top secret, went on to

00:44:51.440 - 00:45:09.950

uh— during my staff duties and so on, there was a uh, there was always an officer following the president of the United States with a little briefcase. And inside that briefcase are nuclear codes, and so in the event of nuclear, use of nuclear weapons, those codes are disseminated and they have to be checked

00:45:10.120 - 00:45:22.620

throughout the military system, whichever units are— have access to nuclear weapons. Well I was— I— I'm the officer, along with another officer, two men control the— receive

00:45:23.310 - 00:45:40.800

those codes, update 'em, keep the inventory, and be cleared to disseminate the, the clearance. So that was our job in the Navy. Um, let's talk about your family again, how are um holidays traditionally celebrated in

00:45:40.840 - 00:45:54.440

your family and what holidays are the most important? Are there any special family traditions or customs or food? Well I--I think, my wife Linda was,

00:45:54.670 - 00:46:05.040

she was born in Houston, Bellaire. She went to Bellaire High School, UT. And we dated for a long time, we actually met in college, and then

00:46:06.360 - 00:46:22.440

uh when I was in the Navy, we actually got married while I was in the Navy. So I was very fortunate in that, for example, when I was stationed in the Philippines, as a junior officer, she was able to, to travel with me.

00:46:24.820 - 00:46:42.640

Um, our, our traditions, I guess they're, they're just like any other normal, uh, American family. We, we're Christians, so we of course celebrate uh Christmas, we have Thanksgiving, all the normal

00:46:44.880 - 00:46:59.180

holidays, and of course Linda's background, she was in retail. Uh, as a— she worked for Joske Brothers, became a buyer, Joske's turned into uh, eventually got

00:46:59.830 - 00:47:12.890

bought out and uh I think it was a federated store so, Foley's and so on. So as we moved from San Antonio to Houston, her--she was able to, to

00:47:13.310 - 00:47:29.080

stay in her career in retail. And of course retailers, all those holidays are big merchandising days as well, so she's very much attuned to all that. Um, but holidays, you know, they're

00:47:29.180 - 00:47:45.100

normal. I--uh, we, as far as Chinese-American influence, or, or Asian influence, the customs uh, red egg parties, birthdays, so on, is--is respect for your elders, I think that's all, that's a

00:47:45.190 - 00:48:00.630

big influence on us. More so than I can see on my Caucasian colleagues. Um, but I--I don't, I don't know if there's--there's no particular Asian holiday that we

00:48:01.310 - 00:48:15.230

celebrate over the normal American, Anglo-Saxon holidays. Um, how about food traditions, does your family have any, um, recipes passed down throughout the generations?

00:48:15.810 - 00:48:29.360

Food? Yeah. Well, both our— Linda's parents, her parents, uh Albert Gee, was uh, a restaurant owner here in Houston. And uh,

00:48:31.740 - 00:48:46.590

and when I came along, my parents were in the restaurant business in San Antonio. So I often joke that my— our parents actually uh, knew each

00:48:46.590 - 00:49:00.280

other, and had collaborated in some sense, they talked about, "Well, okay, you--you put uh..." In my family's restaurants in San Antonio, they--they say, "Well, let's, let's put out

00:49:00.440 - 00:49:13.140

Gee's matchbooks or postcards," and over here, and vice-versa, Albert Gee'd do the same in Houston. So often joke with Linda that we probably should've lived in Schulenberg, which is halfway between San Antonio and Houston.

00:49:13.430 - 00:49:32.090

But uh, uh, food, we— at home, when my mother or sisters would cook, uh it

00:49:32.090 - 00:49:46.830

was a lot of Chinese food and a lot of American food. You know, we ate out— my sister Mildred actually wrote a--a cookbook. She's, she's pretty good, she wrote a cookbook and got published, this is years ago. The name of her book

00:49:46.980 - 00:50:03.770

was uh, Chinese American Kosher Food. ‘Cause she used to teach cooking classes at the Chinese Institute there in, in Manhattan for a while. And so she wrote this book, and it has

00:50:03.770 - 00:50:17.920

some pretty good recipes. But I remember Millie's cooking, it was--it was really good, and she still to this day is, is pretty good at cooking. Stingfish, all the normal Cantonese stuff, she's very good at. Um,

00:50:21.000 - 00:50:37.130

my mother, my mother was not that good a cook, tell you the truth. Except when she really tried. When she made the effort, like Thanksgiving, she would make an effort. Her um, you know roasting a turkey,

00:50:38.920 - 00:50:50.910

um, cooking the traditional dressing with uh chestnuts and oysters and all that was, was very good. Her gravies, I'm a big fan of gravies. She made great giblet gravy.

00:50:52.440 - 00:51:11.170

Uh, but other than that you know, it was just sort of like, let's get by with this. Um, what prompted you to pursue a career in law, and how long have you been in law? And what companies did you work for?

00:51:11.690 - 00:51:28.850

Okay. Pursuing a--after I graduated, about 1972 or 3, worked for a real estate company, a development company, wasn't really practicing law for the first several years. Then went on and uh,

00:51:29.850 - 00:51:46.580

worked with the Harris County Attorney's Office for 3 years. Uh, the Harris County Attorney's Office, basically we represented Harris County in, in civil lawsuits. Harris County, Texas, had— unlike many other counties in,

00:51:46.900 - 00:52:01.080

in the state, has a district attorney, which handles all the criminal matters, and a Harris County attorney, which handles all the civil matters for Harris County. Uh, 2 distinct offices, which in most counties

00:52:02.180 - 00:52:18.720

in Texas, there'll be one district attorney and that'll handle both. Uh, they get more notoriety for handling criminal cases because those are the ones in the newspaper, uh more than often. But Harris County, uh attorney's office,

00:52:20.020 - 00:52:37.860

it's like a, a medium-size law firm. At the time I was there, Joe Russ, whoever was the Harris County attorney, and had been in office for years and years and years and years, uh, my particular section handled representation of

00:52:38.000 - 00:52:58.510

the sheriffs and the constables and other civil matters for Harris County. A lot of people will sue the sheriff or the, one of the constables, and of course we uh would defend them, or we would bring suits on behalf of the county against other

00:52:58.870 - 00:53:15.790

parties for whatever civil dispute was involved. Uh, after about 3 years with the Harris County Attorney's Office, I then uh worked as an associate with an attorney here in Houston, uh, William Sim,

00:53:17.350 - 00:53:33.010

handling basically-- William Sim is an immigration uh, lawyer. And it was under the name of uh Sim and Wu. Uh, then after Sim and Wu, uh

00:53:33.680 - 00:53:51.660

Gordon Quan was leaving, leaving Harry Gee's office, uh Gordon is a-- is an attorney and former uh city council member here in Houston. And we formed uh Quan and Wu, so we practiced together as Quan and Wu for about 3 years. And

00:53:52.480 - 00:54:08.750

then uh we split, and at Quan and Wu we handled uh general litigation, and him--Gordon was focused on immigration. We handled general--general practice as well as immigration

00:54:08.840 - 00:54:28.310

matters. Uh, then I--I moved on and formed a uh a firm called um, Cavanaugh, Fay, Gallespie and Wu, and that went on for, in various forms, for about 20, 25 years, offices in

00:54:28.520 - 00:54:45.830

Greenway Plaza. And then that morphed into where I moved into my current office space, and Dan Fay, uh, from the former group, came along here. So we're, we have a, basically,

00:54:46.220 - 00:55:03.000

we're not a partnership, we're in an office-sharing relationship. So it's been a private practice ever since then. And right now, um... you know, basically general civil matters and

00:55:03.590 - 00:55:18.140

immigration is what I've been doing. There was about 23 or 4 years there that I was serving on the bench as an associate municipal court judge for the City of Houston, I, I got an

00:55:18.480 - 00:55:33.120

appointment from then-mayor McConn. Uh, don't remember exactly when he was in office but I was appointed to the bench, approved by City Council, and then uh way the system is,

00:55:33.120 - 00:55:50.350

is that it's--it's not an elected office, but you serve at the pleasure of the mayor for a 2-year term. So for McConn to the next mayor, I think uh was, what's the lady's name, can't

00:55:50.530 - 00:56:04.990

remember now--Kathy Whitmire. After Whitmire, there was another mayor, anyway, went up until uh, for about 23 years. Several different mayors, and then you know I retired from that,

00:56:05.810 - 00:56:19.990

from the, from the bench, and that was, that was an associate judgeship, so it's not a full- time job, I'm not there from 9 to 5, it's uh, uh a different docket. And so you're— we could

00:56:19.990 - 00:56:35.770

handle private practice as well. Um, what do you feel was the most difficult part of your career and what changes did you see over the course of your career? Legal career? Yeah. The big change I've seen is

00:56:37.070 - 00:56:50.080

the--the big influx of uh, of women in the career. And if you talk about— women are really not the minority in the legal profession anymore, I don't believe. I think statistically, they probably are the majority.

00:56:51.850 - 00:57:01.310

When I went to law school, there were very few women in law school. Uh, if you take it down to an ethnic minority, there were very few Asians in, in law school.

00:57:02.380 - 00:57:16.260

Uh, and so as years have gone by, those two uh minorities have increased where the legal profession now is uh, I think majority female and

00:57:16.930 - 00:57:36.240

the influx of minorities--we formed... 40 years ago, in Houston, a group of Asian attorneys got together and uh at that point in time, there were very few Asian attorneys, so we formed

00:57:36.310 - 00:57:53.610

what's now known as, and was known back then as the Asian-American Bar Association. So I was honored to be the first president of the Asian, uh American Bar Association, 40 years ago. And at that point in time, when we did form the organization, we got a list of any

00:57:53.610 - 00:58:08.820

Asian-sounding name from the state bar, and solicited, uh, all those names to join the bar. I- -initially we were thinking that we would form an Asian bar for the state of Texas, but uh we

00:58:08.820 - 00:58:21.490

narrowed it back down to the greater Houston area. Just, uh, there was some vision because--I don't think there's any other bar, there may be a Dallas Asian bar I think now, or

00:58:21.560 - 00:58:39.310

there had been talk of one, I'm not sure if they ever got it off the ground. But we had uh, about 50 names back then that we thought were Asian-sounding. And this is before Google, this is before the internet, this is before a lot of the electronic

00:58:39.310 - 00:58:53.500

devices and the information highway that we have nowadays, so all this was done on paper, telephone, so on. And uh, we got the Asian bar going, and uh

00:58:54.240 - 00:59:07.390

I think at that time also, we had--across the country, we knew that in the bay— in California, which obviously in terms of Asian lawyers, there were a higher number and a higher percentage.

00:59:09.140 - 00:59:25.550

Uh, we were trying to track, uh, where Asians— how far they advanced in the profession. I think that time the number, we--we thought approximately 12, uh, Asians at partnership level

00:59:25.850 - 00:59:39.880

at some of the big law firms on the, the West Coast. We never really came to any conclusion whether there was uh--breaking through that glass ceiling, I'm— it probably— much larger now. But I, I can tell you locally,

00:59:39.970 - 00:59:57.970

we had no Asians at partnership levels in the bigger firms now. The legal profession at that time was not as international, you don't have these hu— you didn't have these humongous lawyers, thousands of lawyers in one firm,

00:59:58.990 - 01:00:10.250

you had the major local law firms, and at that time Houston probably had larger law firms than say, relative to Dallas. We had Vinson- Elkins, Fulbright-Jaworski, so on.

01:00:10.330 - 01:00:27.550

Those have now morphed into much larger firms, uh it's now Norton, uh Fulbright International firm, so on. So this has been the growth of the legal profession, particularly as the oil industry centered here in Houston has grown and

01:00:28.820 - 01:00:41.730

uh, the need for international legal advice trade--China opening up, far East, so on. All these things have made it to where the firms have got to service these international clients.

01:00:42.750 - 01:00:54.270

But in terms of growth, it's been, I--I know we now have partners and perhaps even some senior partners that are Asian-American in some of the bigger firms, which is good.

01:00:55.650 - 01:01:11.750

And a lot of women, a lot of women in--practicing law. And a lot of women that want to go into practicing law. So you mentioned how the--how there weren't a lot of Asian-Americans in the um, in

01:01:11.750 - 01:01:28.170

your workplace before, did you find yourself conscious of your race? Yes. Yeah. I think it--it is a consciousness that uh, depending on the individual, speaking for myself, can be a benefit, it can be a detriment.

01:01:28.670 - 01:01:45.470

Uh, I think in my life, because I was very often the only Asian or one of--one amongst very few in whatever— either academics, society, or other el--elements of society,

01:01:46.100 - 01:01:58.080

that I just normally stood out, just because physically I looked different. So I felt uh, or perceived a--I don't know, I don't

01:01:58.080 - 01:02:10.880

wanna use the word burden, but I uh perceived a responsibility to kind of represent other Asians because of that. Uh, there's some negative things and there's some positive things.

01:02:12.050 - 01:02:31.180

Uh, going to SMU which is a very lily-white, Anglo-Saxon school back in those days, uh I remember going through— and in those days also, very um, fraternity-, sorority- uh, minded

01:02:31.180 - 01:02:51.070

school. Where most of the students came from upper-middle class financial families. Uh, and Dallas being very conservative place at the time, and still is, uh I went through fraternity

01:02:51.070 - 01:03:08.280

rush. I was walking in the student union bookstore, and just browsing one day. Freshman, going through fraternity rush, and was approached by the uh president of the whatever--

01:03:08.480 - 01:03:27.330

whatever they're called, the fraternity pan-Hellenic council or whatever. Pulled me aside, and--and basically uh told me that if I did not receive a bid, don't be disappointed, but there were unwritten and in some of the fraternities written rules against,

01:03:28.250 - 01:03:43.530

uh, non-whites being members. And I was stunned. I--I, you know, couldn't believe it, it was a big downfall, because I'd never--I had not really ever uh sensed or

01:03:43.730 - 01:03:58.720

felt... that overt prejudice, racial prejudice, before. You know as a kid, you grow up and, yeah, y... there were elementary school "ching chong Chinaman", whatever, you get that.

01:03:59.160 - 01:04:11.190

But you deal with it. But there was never--I can't go somewhere, I can't be something because of race. And that was--that really im— that, that was a big impact, to have that, that conversation.

01:04:12.260 - 01:04:25.100

I went through rush, and all the little things back then, well if you're--you go to the fraternity house and you're put in this corner, or put by some coffee table then that's a secret sign that this guy is not gonna get a

01:04:29.830 - 01:04:43.020

bid. Uh, in retrospect, that--that's okay, it's--but in the bigger retrospect, it's not okay. And I'm, what I'm gratified to see, on one hand, is that I don't think we have that.

01:04:44.050 - 01:04:59.630

I don't think--I'm not so close to uh, your ages, that I, I really can see that. But what I have seen over the--over the course of my lifetime, I--I think in

01:04:59.630 - 01:05:13.250

certain areas race relationships have gotten better. But what I wish--where I think they could be better, um, and what I would really hope that they would

01:05:13.290 - 01:05:31.560

be better, is I think, as Asians, we need to, uh, assimilate to a higher degree. Um, so that there's more of a melting pot.

01:05:31.750 - 01:05:50.850

But where the line is drawn is a difficult balance because, what I've viewed, is for example it seems like--and this may be a, a perception and not a reality, I--I hear these stories about high schools where, uh, with a--where there's a, a

01:05:51.360 - 01:06:05.520

large Asian population in that area, and you see all the Asian kids in the cafeterias kind of sitting together, you see all the black kids maybe sitting together, the Hispanic kids together. So we--there's, there's an--it's not an overt,

01:06:08.100 - 01:06:26.810

uh, segregation in terms of it's gonna be followed because of some rule, because it's--we don't have, not on paper anyway, we don't have segregation. So, but we kind of impose segregation upon ourselves. So what I would like to see is, kind of some, some effort

01:06:26.860 - 01:06:42.300

to burst out of that and assimilate, to--to mingle. Uh, Asian-American Studies, for example, if we continue to use "Asian" as a prefix to everything, in a sense that will continue.

01:06:42.640 - 01:06:55.660

But, and--continue this sort of segregation, self- imposed. If we allow it to, to go that way. I--I don't, I'm not saying we need to disavow or forget about our heritage, that's very important.

01:06:57.420 - 01:07:08.840

But at the same time there has to be a, an effort to get away--and I think the trend is that way, it's just that the trend has its ups and downs as we advance.

01:07:09.960 - 01:07:28.850

So I don't know if enough effort now is being made to break out of this what I call self-imposed segregation. Now let me ask you, what--how, what is your feeling about it? I mean, 'cause you're much closer to the, you know, the younger generation.

01:07:29.730 - 01:07:40.570

What is, what is your background, when you went through high schools and... so on? Well, like, the high school that I went to, it was in a very white community, kind of like

01:07:40.640 - 01:07:57.550

what you described for your community. Um, I kind of just like, hung out with mostly white people, so in a way I feel like I... integrated more than like, other school where it's like, I

01:07:57.550 - 01:08:10.700

know the other high school in my area, it's more— um, people who go there are Asian, and then— This is Houston? No, I--LA. LA, okay. Like, my high school, um, but the other high school in

01:08:10.700 - 01:08:20.140

my area, it was all the Asians hung out together, and all like other races hung out together. So I definitely still see that, but not from personal experience.

01:08:23.190 - 01:08:39.010

Um, well I grew up in upstate New York and I was like, the only Asian person at my school, um for elementary and middle school, and then in high school I went to a boarding school in Boston, and uh, where there were a bunch of

01:08:39.180 - 01:08:53.860

international students from Asian countries, and just like a lot more Asian-Americans, um, than I had ever known before. Um, so there I felt like it was very mixed, a

01:08:54.220 - 01:09:10.060

true mixing pot of culture, and a very accepting environment, and I never felt like I was, um, like I was racialized like I was in upstate New York. Did you--did you feel--that's interesting, because you had--you had

01:09:11.130 - 01:09:24.570

international students coming in. So did you feel... like whatever--and I don't want to categorize. But did you feel like--like whatever they did was somehow reflective of

01:09:24.620 - 01:09:39.980

you in the eyes of a third party looking at Asians in general? I, I don't think so, if anything I think they--I think there's a difference between somebody that's Asian-American and somebody that's coming from Korea or China—

01:09:40.080 - 01:09:54.690

or mainland China. Um, and I can definitely see that at our university, at Rice, um, there's an obvious separation between the international students and uh, and Asian-American students in the

01:09:54.720 - 01:10:10.270

population. Um, and it's not as mixed as I saw in my experiences in high school. Um, which is at times a downfall of our university, and I wish it was more, um, better socialized and

01:10:10.330 - 01:10:23.620

integrated, but um, there is a difference I think, and people understand the cultural backgrounds of an Asian-American-- I guess that's a--you know, you guys are an example of the trend

01:10:24.350 - 01:10:40.880

going up--see, my perspective is a little bit different. I just felt like--not, again, not a burden, but that if--if there was an international student, which I didn't really have that much of, didn't have that element, but Asians in general I felt like it

01:10:41.840 - 01:10:58.480

was more... uh, the dynamic had two elements. Yours is more, the dynamic has more elements, and you don't feel--your perspective is a little bit different than mine.

01:10:58.480 - 01:11:09.500

I felt responsible, in some way. I think you don't have that sense of responsibility, which I think is great. Which indicates to me that there is that assimilation

01:11:10.720 - 01:11:22.810

or that integration to a--you know to a--in a personal feeling, as opposed to on paper and all this other studies . So I--that's great. That's really something.

01:11:24.240 - 01:11:37.420

But at the same time you understand what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Like I feel like being Asian-American, especially where I lived, was kind of difficult at some points, because like, people viewed you as like

01:11:37.780 - 01:11:46.930

too Asian but like if you went to like another country then they would view you as too American. So it's just this very weird in-between. Yeah, it's all in the--in the eyes of the beholder.

01:11:47.490 - 01:12:00.350

Yeah. It's like just this very weird like in-between that, it's kind of hard to like, define who you are. And then like I came to Rice, and then there are like a lot more Asians than I'm used to. So, that's

01:12:02.900 - 01:12:19.320

interesting. Yeah, we have a Chinese Student Association on campus, but the thing is it's mostly um, like mainland Chinese students, and there's really no, like, Asian-American, um,

01:12:19.320 - 01:12:37.000

society. I think they've actually branched out and created their own club, like the Asian- American Pacific Student Association, so, yeah, there's definitely a divide. We--yeah, so there's more slots to be

01:12:37.160 - 01:12:53.530

filled in now, I guess when I was going through school, there was not so many slots, so there weren't so many divides. But, I--I guess in life that, you know people always divide, whether it's gonna be racial lines or ethnic lines

01:12:53.530 - 01:13:07.640

or economic lines, or--we can always find those ways to, to divide. I guess what, what I would like to see is less division somehow, where you don't cubbyhole and people get--some

01:13:07.640 - 01:13:22.920

people will get forced into those slots, some will have they're wired I guess as birth to kind of, "Well, I'm not gonna be encumbered by that, you know, I'm just gonna do whatever I wanna do, whenever I wanna do it, with whomever I wanna do it with."

01:13:25.060 - 01:13:43.210

Yeah, we've been discussing a lot of stuff about identity and external influences, but also this uh—modern understanding of being Asian American, but more so finding that personal American identity, and um having a unique perspective

01:13:43.540 - 01:13:55.260

on your own cultural background because so many people have such different perspectives. Right, right. I guess the term is probably too cliched but, in a sense it is a little bit of an

01:13:55.800 - 01:14:13.180

identity crisis. We all kind of have to find out where we are and how we fit in the big scheme of things. Um, as long as we don't have that as a preoccupation, I think we’re okay. We're just gonna be reasonable about it.

01:14:13.180 - 01:14:24.820

And you use its benefit. There's—there's definite benefit from being Asian and I guess on the other extreme, it could be some burden. But, there's a

01:14:27.430 - 01:14:43.950

balance—somewhere, it works. And… you know, you just gotta search and hopefully find that balance individually and as a society I think.

01:14:44.500 - 01:15:01.180

Okay so—um—so the Asian American Bar Association of Houston, um, what were a few of the challenges of starting or like getting it expanded? Well, like any organization,

01:15:03.850 - 01:15:21.140

pretty much, it-- the thing that is difficult is to keep the momentum going from year of year and where the focus is gonna be. When that Asian- American started, basically everybody was solo practitioner. Nobody—there were a few that

01:15:21.220 - 01:15:36.040

were with some of the larger firms. I call 'em downtown law firms. This is a euphemism but there were—they were associates, or they would be—I think we have one or two that

01:15:36.250 - 01:15:47.130

were—had the title of Partner. But if you know anything about large law firms, there are partners and then there are real partners and then there are really really partners. So, and

01:15:47.130 - 01:16:03.300

those are, uh, probably divided or—by the financial remuneration that they have or entitled to—is where you are, the so-called partner slot.

01:16:05.240 - 01:16:22.590

But the hard thing is to—is to get the organization and get some sort of focus on what your objective is and that objective will-- changes as—as time goes by. Uh, right now, I really have a great

01:16:22.590 - 01:16:40.270

sense of pride in—in the Asian American Bar where it has come in forty years. Uh, financially much stronger because of the relationships with the big firms and—and those

01:16:41.080 - 01:16:55.270

companies, those corporations that—that can fund the need which we did not have at the beginning. It was all dues which came out of everybody's personal

01:16:55.330 - 01:17:13.030

pocket. We had a big argument about what the dues are gonna be. You have to have—the unfortunate thing about any organization, maybe not unfortunate—but it has to have the financial wherewithal to do something. So we had an argument about what—where we are gonna set the dues on those initial.

01:17:14.390 - 01:17:30.590

How expansive are we gonna be? You can—you can start a nonprofit company or organization, but charter with the Texas Secretary of State, which we did. But, is it gonna be all the state

01:17:30.590 - 01:17:45.630

of Texas or you gonna call it Asian American Bar Association of Texas, Asian American Bar Association, Houston Asian—and in the legal profession, there's zillions of bar associations. There's one that everybody's got a blog due—state bar.

01:17:46.630 - 01:17:54.840

But beyond that, you've got the Hispanic bar. You've got the Black bar. You've got the northeast bar. Just bunches of

01:17:54.870 - 01:18:09.830

different bars and all of these bars are collecting dues. And if you are a young lawyer struggling, solo practitioner don't have a job necessarily with a big firm, and you are hanging up your shingle and trying to start off, there are some

01:18:09.890 - 01:18:27.220

expenses. So, that's—that's difficult. I hope that the Asian Bar, which has changed right now, uh—I wanna be somewhat critical of it. The focus because of the influx of large numbers of

01:18:27.220 - 01:18:43.410

Asian law students, influx of large numbers of Asian uh, members, which are well-educated and go to good law schools, and good law schools, top notch law schools, the top several—the top

01:18:43.410 - 01:19:01.680

percentages are gonna— are gonna be financially—have an opportunity to join large law firms. But the vast number of law graduates don't have that advantage because they are not in the top percentage. And they've gotta go out and pound the pavement in the

01:19:02.130 - 01:19:17.580

job market right now is probably not the best, uh, for them, so it's a struggle. So I would like to see the Asian bars is—as it is now, kind of focus on—on that group, uh,

01:19:18.930 - 01:19:33.770

as opposed to big law firm lawyers that are with big firms and have big corporate clients, since there-- there’s a different perspective. There's a—there's a vast divide between those—it's

01:19:35.410 - 01:19:50.520

almost like the—the financial divide that the haves and haves nots. It's gotta be somewhere—you gotta—you gotta focus on that middle group more, I believe than—than—right now, and there's some effort. There's one

01:19:50.570 - 01:20:09.790

committee of Asian Bar—it’s a solo small firm committee. And they—they try to network and get those individuals along, which is good. Could you talk more about um, what led you to open up your own

01:20:10.290 - 01:20:22.820

practice? I never had a calling to be a lawyer. It's not like I, you know, wanted to be a physician and had a calling to go out and help the poor and the sick and the needy. To be real honest

01:20:22.960 - 01:20:36.660

about it, it was—uh, here I am, what I do next—I guess well okay, you go to take the LSAT and see if you can get into the law school.

01:20:37.820 - 01:20:53.610

Uh, one of the—one of the things about the practice of law is that it can be—because it's a—it's a disciplined profession and is a

01:20:53.610 - 01:21:04.380

profession where the- the Latin term stare decisis in other words case laws depend on what happens previously. So, it's built upon that.

01:21:05.740 - 01:21:19.200

And that in itself conceptually doesn’t really allow for uh, change. So that can be an encumbrance. But I think if you—if- if someone—

01:21:20.280 - 01:21:38.030

you can find a niche in law that will fit most personalities. Uh, and there's obviously a broad spectrum of personalities, but if somebody wants to be by the

01:21:38.130 - 01:21:50.480

book, you can have it—you can practice law by the book. You can also think outside of the box and that's how things change. So, it- it provides that.

01:21:50.910 - 01:22:14.230

Perhaps the one thing about legal profession that—it uh, can be—it can stifle creativeness both uh in your way of thinking, in arts for example it can be somewhat prohibitive—if you allow it

01:22:15.950 - 01:22:31.710

to. Um—it um—there's just a lot of things in practice law that are very good but there are others thing that if you allow them, can be—can be—

01:22:33.300 - 01:22:47.200

they can overcome you as a person. Uh, if you see clients and—and—how do you look at your clients. You look at it as a checkbook, that's gonna pay you a fee? Uh or you look at it

01:22:47.200 - 01:23:01.770

as an individual that has a—something that you think you can really help them at. And then building up the relationships and being able to communicate, I think, is very important. Communication, I have found—you've

01:23:06.610 - 01:23:20.980

gotta—it really takes time and effort to be able to communicate well with a client. You've gotta figure out really what they are saying and how can you tell them what your advice is that they would

01:23:21.130 - 01:23:34.820

comprehend it. Uh, you know, we’re all made differently, so the communication-- the line of communication is really one of the primary things as an attorney that I think is extremely

01:23:35.830 - 01:23:52.120

important before you can—before you can help anybody. And you may not be able to help somebody and if you can tell them that I just can't help you, you've gotta communicate it in a way that uh, where they

01:23:52.120 - 01:24:05.370

understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. It's like radios. You gotta be on the same frequency when you are transmitting or receiving and you just gotta adjust to try to find the common frequency.

01:24:11.550 - 01:24:26.520

Um, okay we just have a few last questions. Sure. I guess just to go back to your two children. Um, you told us a little bit about their occupations and stuff like that.

01:24:26.930 - 01:24:43.860

But if you want to talk more about your relationship with them now. And uh, do you have grandchildren? No we don't and you know I am—I guess, I don't—I am the type that I am not gonna—I

01:24:46.070 - 01:25:06.450

am not a uh—I have not been a hands-on parent, because uh, my, my—uh, I don't know if it's philosophy, but my belief about parenting is that you can only try to imbue your children

01:25:07.560 - 01:25:23.140

with certain basic principles or elements. And then I think they are pretty much on their own after that. So I don't—I am not a micro-manager—I am not, I guess, the stereotypical Asian

01:25:23.590 - 01:25:43.210

tiger father or mom or whatever, that's not me. And uh, I don't know If I'm lazy about it. Maybe not lazy, but that's just not my style. So um, I don't—I

01:25:46.770 - 01:26:02.170

don't try to uh—I don't—I try not to tie any strings to my kids. If they wanna do something and I trust their judgment. You know, fortunately, I think they are both intelligent enough to make the right

01:26:02.300 - 01:26:15.090

decision and they have the background, I think, to make good decisions. But the decisions are theirs. I am not gonna say you have to do this or you have to do that or if you don't do

01:26:15.120 - 01:26:26.990

this—that's just not gonna happen. So I—in that regard, I am really happy that my kids are where they’re at now. Would I like to have grandchildren?

01:26:26.990 - 01:26:38.280

Yeah, sure, you know it would great. Uh, I'd probably want grandchildren on my own terms—I don't want the burden—I just want all the fun. I don't know if that's possible.

01:26:39.110 - 01:26:54.840

So um, burden and benefit, the two ‘B’s’— you know that's part of the deal. You’ve gotta accept the benefit but with the burden. As I said, my daughter, she just got married.

01:26:55.750 - 01:27:08.880

Uh and, she wanted the perfect wedding and so we were able to give her financially her perfect wedding, uh which is fine and she's happy.

01:27:09.850 - 01:27:24.440

Uh, she has a very strong personality. I kinda say it's like sweet and sour. It depends on what you are gonna get for the—some days it's sweet; some days it's sour, depending on what the issue is—stubborn.

01:27:28.360 - 01:27:40.580

My son is—uh, he is a pretty smart kid. Uh, I wanted him—I didn't pressure him, but I thought he ought to go to graduate school. But he seems to be doing

01:27:40.580 - 01:27:56.450

quite well with Mattel—he's been with them for I don't know how many years now. Literally worked his way up from hourly paid—and here is a kid who goes to Brown University, an Ivy league, goes out to California and

01:27:56.660 - 01:28:12.850

interviews and—and gets an hourly job not with Mattel Proper but with a little subsidiary offshoot of Mattel—the way they form it so they don't have to pay him health insurance and retirement duh duh duh. On an hourly and he keeps talking

01:28:12.850 - 01:28:29.960

about: "Well I'm kinda under probation until I become part of the team." What is a team? That means Mattel. Well, when do you really get to work for Mattel. So anyway, he goes from an hourly wage and now he is uh, has some title of managing director of boys

01:28:31.100 - 01:28:49.670

something—toys. He's been able to travel all over the world with Mattel. He's—and he seems to be doing okay. So never went back to get his MBA or anything like that. His dad is saying well you know on your resume it will look good, but that's about as

01:28:49.670 - 01:29:02.500

far as I took it. And as far as marriage is concerned, you know, he's dated around and recently got broke up from well, a girl

01:29:02.500 - 01:29:17.370

that is very nice but just wasn't quite convinced. They were off and on, off and on and now they are off. And that's where it's at. So wherever the future holds, the future holds. I am not gonna try to direct it as far as my kids are

01:29:19.510 - 01:29:34.440

concerned. So to wrap it up, what words do you have for the next generation? Wow that's a tough one. That's so broad. Well I—I think you have to keep it—

01:29:35.350 - 01:29:45.770

perspectives change from—and particularly from your age. If you are at a younger age, you will have certain perspective. As you advance in age.

01:29:46.050 - 01:29:58.130

Your perspective will change somewhat. But, the one thing that is not gonna change—I don't believe—is whatever your core feelings and principles are. And those are imbued at a very—in my belief anyway—

01:29:59.090 - 01:30:12.840

those are imbued from your early upbringing and your early—you know that, what your early upbringing well—we are all tried to our parents to some respect, particularly in the Asian community.

01:30:12.840 - 01:30:29.570

I think—I think that is very true. But I think uh, as Asians… I don't, I don’t wanna seem uh careful in a way—I

01:30:30.270 - 01:30:45.130

think we are somewhat special in that we have a benefit of normally, in most situations having very good parental uh, care.

01:30:46.890 - 01:31:02.220

There are exceptions to that, obviously. But for the most part, I think as Asian Americans, we do have that benefit and so from very early ages, we have uh that benefit of being imbued with certain core

01:31:02.940 - 01:31:19.500

principles, things that will service us in the rest of our lives. Now from there, as individuals we have to have the intelligence to take uh, those core principles, and then make our

01:31:19.550 - 01:31:35.490

decisions. And you two are very fine examples of that 'cause I get the vibration that you have somewhat a—there's a similarity in that you know you have parents whogave you

01:31:35.490 - 01:31:49.650

certain core, but you are obviously intelligent enough to know perhaps to maybe somewhat question those core values not to the—not to the core of them but how you implement them

01:31:50.210 - 01:32:04.290

in the future. So it's a mesh of taking those core values and, as individuals, making decisions in the future of how we are gonna and to what extent do we accept it?

01:32:04.890 - 01:32:14.010

Do we think a little bit out of the box? Do we modify a little bit? What is acceptable as we—as we advance and get older and so on.

01:32:14.240 - 01:32:27.260

But you’re still gonna go back to some really things that you are not gonna change. That's just the way you are. But you know god given intelligence—whatever you modify accordingly as you get older.

01:32:27.760 - 01:32:42.960

And I think we are very fortunate, as Asians, to have that—that core that- that beginning. So, what I say to the future, be aware of your core but be aware that

01:32:44.380 - 01:32:55.690

how you can change it or you can make decisions using that core. You don't—you don't always accept things at face value. You gotta—you gotta have a little bit of questioning.

01:32:57.300 - 01:33:08.930

There's gotta be a little bit of adversary inside. Well does that mean—why do I do this this way? And think it out. Think it through. That would be the general advice I guess.

01:33:09.580 - 01:33:20.350

People can look at it from that perspective. Thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you. That's been interesting. I wish you guys have talked more.

01:33:20.810 - 01:33:36.780

'Cause it's good feedback. 'Cause I can see, you know, I can see you know, generational things and uh, there's commonality but there's generation differences and gender differences and so

01:33:37.120 - 01:33:37.190

on.