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Okay, so the day is June the 20th, 2019, and we’re here with Houston Asian American Archive, and we’re interviewing Sushila Agrawal. My name is Mary Claire Neal.

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Alright, thank you so much for coming. Yeah, I’m glad to be here! First, can you tell us when and where you were born—and, some about your family, and your siblings, and your community as a child?

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Well I was born in India, Delhi, that’s capital of India. And I'm born and brought up in Delhi actually, so um,

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my family, I mean I’m from India, my family’s from India. And, they have been living in Delhi for, you know, maybe many generations. And did you grow up with a lot of your extended family or grandparents with you?

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Yes I did, I had a joint family, which is called like, grandparents, and multiple uncles, uh, you know, live together. And, we had a big house.

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My family was in trading business, and uh—so I grew up with my two uncles and my dad. And uh, my aunts were married by the time I got—uh I was born. But they

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visited us often. So I had a lot of cousins and brothers and sisters, I grew up with. Wow. Were you good friends with all of them? And do you remember what games you played or

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what you did for fun? Well, it’s uh, kind of um… My dad is the eldest out of all his siblings, so—and I’m his o— you

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know, eldest child, so I had much quite younger, uh, cousins. Uh, in fact, when I got married, my youngest cousin was only one year old.

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And uh, my... so I had a relationship with them more like a older sister than the really siblings.

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I kind of learned that relationship after I came here. So you were, you took care of them and had responsibilities? Not really, my parents were

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uh, well-to-do, and so I really didn’t take care of them. But I can say I was a little bossy; or maybe they listen to me a lo— you know, to a lot, respected me

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a lot. And um, and didn’t think about it much, you know? Like uh, we watched movie together, if they needed something they’ll come to me, ask me; and uh,

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but I was I think uh, quite busy in my own world. I was very much friends with my aunt and my uncles. They were more, uh, like a sibling to me, s– sounds strange, than my own cousins.

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Were they, um, older than you? Of course they were older than me; but uh, they were like, not that much older. Like my uncle was, uh, maybe five year older; and my aunt was like four year older.

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And um, so, um, I kind of reached out to them for everything, uh, than to my own siblings. What do you remember about your early education, and teachers? I belong to— at that time— I was uh, my family was more of

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a business family, so education, uh, I mean they emphasized on education. But it was not that, um... I was the first one went to college.

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And, and my, uh, mom and dad always wanted me to get good educa–education. And my mother’s side, the education was a big thing, so all my uncles from my mother’s side, my

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mother’s brother and they all were very highly educated. I think some influence came from there. And, I went to high school and then after

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that I went to college, did my undergrad, and then I came to States. What were your favorite subjects early as a kid? I loved economics. Um, I loved history, so those were, I did not

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go in art in sciences, like math and uh, math and sciences; so, my, uh, my area of interest when I went to college was more towards arts like economics and history.

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So that’s what I did. Okay. What were some of the values or lessons or beliefs that your family raised you on?

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I think it’s true even today what you— your family is doing and you’re growing up around them, you know. The things you learn, those becomes your value. And I, today I feel

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like I was very fortunate to grow up in a family. They were very, um, god-fearing; they were good people. And uh, when I came here, I kind of raised my family; me and my husband, two of

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us raised the family because we didn’t have extended family here. We tried to go to India, um, every summer, I think we did more than anybody else had done who migrated

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to another country of our friends, because we both grew up in a family, extended family, so we used to miss that a lot for our children. So I feel like I grew up around good values, and uh, which gave me very strong

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foundation for later on when I migrated here and me an– and my husband were on our own; we could do the same. So you moved here after college, right? I moved here after college.

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I– I moved here because I got married to my husband. Uh, I didn’t come here. He came here for studies. I came here because I married him, and, uh, so

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uh, that’s uh why I moved here. Was that the first time you had lived apart from your family? Or in college were you also on your own? No, I—in college, I used to go to, I was to

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a commuter college, uh, boarding schools were not that popular in India in those days… so I will say yeah, first time I moved so far. You know, from India to here.

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Uh... nowadays the young generation, even my grandkids, or even my kids won’t understand how the communication was at that time. I mean, even on the phone, uh, it will take you couple of days to make a phone call, especially from India to

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here. And, and then, you know, after every three minutes, uh operat— excuse me— operator is reminding you that three minutes are over. So basically you could only say, “Hello?

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Hello? How are you? How are you?” That’s it. And maybe just ask, you know, and you forget everything when you’re hearing your, you know...

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Uh, and nowadays you can like, you know, uh, FaceTime three times a day, so it’s very hard to imagine how it was in those days. How, um, I guess, when did you meet your husband for the

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first time and how long did you have to plan for moving to the States? We had arranged marriage, and uh, those marriages still happens in India, but maybe not

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as many as it did in those days. And so both of our family knew each other, and that’s how we met. And we really didn’t do much planning, I mean, you know, um—when I met him, I guess I liked him.

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But didn’t uh, didn’t go out on a date or anything. We met, uh, couple of times, before we said yes to each other. Um, or say yes to our parents.

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And um, we got married and after marriage I guess, you know, uh, next thing is you come wherever your husband is, so I came here. So he had already moved here?

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Yes, so he moved couple of years before me. He did his Master’s before, um, before we got married and he was working on his Ph. D. at the time. Okay.

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Did you move straight to Houston, or to somewhere else? I have only lived in Houston. I came to Houston. I, we have travelled a lot in the U.S.

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and around the world. But I tell my— always tell my husband if I have to move somewhere, I’ll move back to Delhi, not anywhere else. So Houston is my home, yes, I have moved to Houston,

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and I’m not moved anywhere else. That’s nice. Did you grow up learning to speak English? Or did you learn when you moved? Nowadays if you go to India, uh, English is almost like a first

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language, uh, especially in big cities; but when I was growing up, um, because of our British influence in India, they ruled India for so long, we—I did learn English in school.

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So I had a very good knowledge of a theoretical English. But I was not good in speaking, fluent in speaking when I came here. And my accent was very different, it was more of

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a, um, British-come-Indian accent. And uh, but nowadays because of the media and, you know, if you talk to kids in India, you won’t find any difference. And um, they are actually

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very fluent in English. So, you said you loved history growing up. Can you talk a little about what kind of history you learned in school in India and what most interested you?

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Ah, I just like, you know, it started with the, I will say, story books, like you know, uh, you hear you know like Indian culture is so old, and then when you’re in school we are taught like Muslim ruled India;

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and then after that British uh, ruled India; and you know, and then i— it just, I don’t know, to me, history looked like story. And I loved reading stories. Ao maybe tha— that was my, uh,

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that’s why I liked it? And in college I did British history. So maybe because it um, it tell, you know, when you go through history, I think you

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kind of um, make up your own history. Like, you know it’s uh, really nice when you see, when you read in British history or, I mean, uh, how, you know, the British, or how the US was

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created. Uh, I mean I read this in British history, you know some of the people were very unhappy with the British rule, so some of them decided and, you know, to sail and you know, find another land.

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So it just fascinated me always, so. What was it like as, as an Indian-American woman studying British history? Did that give you any different perspectives? Do you think?

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Not really. Like I said, I didn’t think much, I mean—I kind of maybe knew that I’m not going to go for higher studies. I was uh, after undergrad, maybe I’ll be, um,

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I didn’t know I’ll be coming abroad to U.S.; but I knew I’m going to get married and settle down and all that. So, so I didn’t think about it much, that was more like have a good time in college,

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you know. Um, and then lastly about your, your childhood and education, what were some of those favorite stories you had or that you read, do you remember any specific books you loved? Um... what you mean? Do you remember any books you especially loved or any

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stories that you liked to read? Not really. I mean. Yeah. Okay. Uh, alright. So when you arrived in Houston, um,

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did you have a family or community or friends here? One of my husband’s cousin was already here, uh, in Houston, they were in Houston before I moved; but in—I think in just a month before,

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they moved to College Station because his cousin was also working on his Ph. D. And uh, I don’t know what were the reason but he left Houston and moved to

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College Station to finish it up. Um, they, he was much older than my husband, and he had children, so since I came from a big family, I kind of liked getting together with them once in a while because I, that

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kind of gave me that um, fel— I felt like I was in family, with the family. So, but we had, uh, Houston was—had very little Indian population at that time.

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It will be hard to believe today. But we had like, maybe couple of hundred like, three four hundred bachelors, who were all student, uh, at Rice and University of Houston.

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They were more at University of Houston because it was a commuter school, you could work and support yourself and go to college. And there were like maybe no more than twenty or thirty families

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in the whole Houston really. So it was a very small community. We didn’t have any Indian grocery store; we didn’t have, you know,

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only place we could get maybe little bit of Indian spice or maybe European spices is Anton, that used to be on Main. So that was the only store in Houston

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where we can get some of the… you know. Otherwise, um, very small Indian population here. Do you think around this time was when—did you feel like you were an adult at that point?

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Or do you feel like you became an adult before that or later? Just uh, for yourself in your own, in your own heart. I think later. I kind of grew up, uh, with

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my children, I’ll say. Uh, I obviously, when I’m living here, I, uh, at one point, we decided that I will also start going to co— uh, school here.

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And um, so I start, I got my, um, all my documents you know, school document college from India. By that time they got here, um, I kind of saw

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that, you know, you don’t get any domestic help here. And, uh, if–if my husband is obviously, you know, he’s work— he was working as well, he was doing his Ph.

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D. So if I also go to school, so we won’t have any family life for some time. So we decided that he’ll go and finish everything and I will see about schooling later.

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So, um, so I didn’t do any formal education here. But—s— I kind of grew up later, I will say. I will kind of became a adult later, and I’m

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sure everybody’s like that, you know. Uh when you grow up, you have more responsibility here; I was, me and my husband, no matter how old we were, we were grownups, doing everything ourselves.

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Did it wrong or right that’s different. So what did you do during that time when you were not going to school but your husband was? We decided to have family, so, um, and uh,

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just even learning when I came from India I didn’t, I was in college, I just got married right after college, and uh, then I grew up in a extended family. So I actually didn’t know—I learned driving here;

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I—in fact I even learned cooking here; I learned almost everything here. So, and, kind of self-taught myself and uh, yeah. Do you

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remember what it was like then, what you were excited about and worried about everyday? It was better not to think about it, how far I am from my, uh, my parents, and uh, my own country.

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And, it takes you number of years, like, maybe almost, I’m talking about myself, um, maybe like almost—maybe till you have a first grandchild you realizes, you start

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realizing that—or maybe when you’re in India, when your parents are no more, you start realizing, um, which country’s your first country. So, to me, I think uh,

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when I, um, saw my kids have gotten married, have settled down, and they’re not visiting in India as often as we did together; because they don’t have that need,

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visiting India every year. Uh, and it took me some time to realize that. Uh, in the beginning I kind of felt like when they were not visiting India very often, it felt

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like oh, I took them every summer, I guess they don’t like India, they don’t... it’s not that, it’s just, uh, for me, every summer was important to go because

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I wanted to see my parents. Uh, some of my siblings were getting married or some—my cousins were getting married so I wanted to be a part of it. There were many, many other reasons, and those reasons are

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not there for my children. My children’s parents are here, my children’s cousins are here, siblings are here, and then they are extended family from—on their husband’s side, everybody’s here. So, they’re

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going to India, reason going to India is very different than mine was. And, today I can say very comfortably I feel like this is my home now. Uh, Houston is my home.

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And, India is my second home, but it—I think it takes you a while to, that comes to you, really comes to you naturally. Um, I have a question about you, you said you kind of self-taught cooking?

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Um, did you learn how to make American dishes, or were you kind of reusing recipes from your family? Uh, I actually didn’t cook much from recipes. I don’t even do it today, when you all asked me to write down those

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recipes. My daughter helped me. I told her what to, and when she did, I corrected it while she’s writing. But I cannot like, uh, in fact when my own girls, or even my son also loves cooking,

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and uh, I didn’t get much involved. Uh, growing up, I don’t think so my son cooked that much. But he does now. And when my daughter growing up was doing

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something in the kitchen, I kind of felt I should just go out of the kitchen. Because it was very hard for me to see for them to measuring— measure things, you know, like sugar, and

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shaking the cup and making it– it’s all the way to the top, or it’s little less. What difference does it make? Just, you know. Yeah, just do it, and uh, I mean, even like if uh, they are making apple

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pie, and uh, you know, uh, they need like one and a half, I mean, cup apples, and they peeled two apples, little bit is left, I said, “Put it!” “Why are they leaving it out on the counter?” And uh, so I,

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you know, then I had to tell myself, you know, “I should just be out. Let them do what they’re doing, that’s how they’re going to learn in place of my, you know, just, you know,

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what I will do.” I’ll just move, uh, you know, they’re not in the kitchen, I’ll pick up those apples and put it in the bowl. So I actually don’t um, measure much. And you know, but I completely—I

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mean I give you some ve... one funny example, or one funny. Uh, when I came from India, I had never—I grew, really grew up in an extended family.

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And, um, whenever I saw my house help in India peeling potatoes, I mean they are not peeling one or two potatoes, they are peeling like good ten or, potatoes at one time.

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So I had only seen that, so I didn’t know you can peel one potato. So I, I mean I went to the grocery store with my husband, and he, he also had not

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done grocery before. Even he lived here, he just bought some frozen food and ate that maybe, or uh… So we, I came home, when I’m, I sat down and start peeling

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eight potatoes at a time, for two people. So in beginning, I like, make food for ten people, and uh, we used to have a—one

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of these student apartments across University of Houston. Uh there used to be apartments everywhere around university, and that’s where my husband lived. And we, I don’t think so we had a garbage disposal.

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So, um, I asked my husband, you know, and then, in India we never ate leftovers. I mean, the family was so big, I don’t think so we had that many leftovers, and even if we did, fresh food was made

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every day, I mean for every meal. And so I wouldn’t even serve me and my husband that food I made a day before. So I have this, all this food sitting in the fridge.

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You know, and then I asked my husband what do I do with this. So he says, you know, “don’t throw it in your own kitchen because it will smell.” So, uh, there was a big dumpster, uh, near the washateria, uh like, um,

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you have to walk little bit. So, I have this big pot in my hand, and I’m carrying it to the dumpster to dump it in there, and obviously around our place

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lot of bachelor lived. So we had a bachelor lived, you know, about five or four of them in a two-bedroom apartment next door to us or maybe two apartment down, and they saw me doing that couple of times.

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Oh no. And they could see I’m throwing rice or I’m throwing a curry or something. And so one day one of them knocked on my kitchen door, and he said, “You know you can give the food to us.”

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And uh, I like, I like you know, didn’t say anything; and my husband came in the evening and I said, “Gosh it’s weird, people ask for food here.” And uh, to

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me, you know, giving dinner or somebody then you should be, like proper. Should be— everything should be made proper. Like, you know, in proper containers, and you know, and you know, like that.

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And I said, “I hardly make, you know make, like meal for me and my husband.” I mean I make big dishes but, uh, not even fancy. Like I, you know, you–you, like Indian meal is little, you

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know, like you make one protein, one vegetable, and then you make rice, and then you make fresh tortillas. I said, “you know, I didn’t know how to roll tortillas.” So, I mean I used to make hardly few for him, and few for

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me, just one or two, used to take all my energy to make them. So I said, “how can I give them just the vegetables? It- you should be the whole meal.”

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And then my husband said, “It’s okay, you know, bachelors don’t even get to see Indian food. So what you can do, you can just invite them to the house, and they all, you can chat with them,

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and that way you will have a good afternoon and just, it’s okay, it’s okay.” So, I had not seen that in India, I had not seen that informal side of uh, you know, so.

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Actually, I felt really very much at home, anybody you talk to, even the Americans, you know? I used to wear my, you know, like, um, in the beginning, for actually many years, I wore sari you know.

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Went to the grocery store and never felt out of place because nobody made me feel that way. Uh, so, people were very nice.

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And uh, as far as the Indian people goes here, anybody you meet in college, or even in bachelor, they made you feel like, like he’s your younger brother or your older brother. Or you know, I mean, i— it was

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ou— that way I really felt at home here. So would you say like cooking for the people around you helped form a community for you? Not really. No, I mean, it just uh, what I’m trying to say,

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people—in India, you don’t, I didn’t reach out in the community. I mean I, uh, I grew up in my, with my family, with my relatives, or even with the neighbors; but it’s

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not that you’re walking on the street and everybody would smile at you. Or, you know, or... I don’t know how to put it. But, I felt uh, very, you know…

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I didn’t feel a stranger, let’s put it that way. More than anything. So you did start having those bachelors over? And cooking for them? I did a couple of times.

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And then they moved, you know, I mean, you know, and uh, I, and some of the people, I, we met very first month or very first week, we are still friends with them. And uh, now they have grandkids; we see each other, you know.

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Even if we don’t talk to each other like for, uh we, all, some of them have not in Houston. They are, you know, so we exchange Christma–New Year card.

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And I make a photo card so they always call me or I’ll call them; and we, uh, it will be like we never left, you know, like, we’ll be, uh. So the friends we made in those, they became our

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family, and they still are. Wow. Um, what was, uh, we noticed you were like a vice president soon after you moved, um.

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Can you explain who, who you were helping and what that was for? Vice president, I didn’t understand that. Oh okay. Did you help your husband or anything, with his company? Yes my– my husband, you know,

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we had a, um... He started a company very soon in his career. And um, I was– I was never part of the business, physically, eight to five; but uh,

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since I like I said, we both were the only— we didn’t have any other people, other family people here. Wo we both did discuss

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everything. And uh, we kind of decided lot of thing jointly. But um, to the outsider they will never know I am involved in the business.

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And um, as far as the Vice President go, I– I guess you need, when you form a company, you need people to make, give them different titles; so I think I was given that title. But I– I participated very much with him.

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Uh, we discussed uh, most of the things together. We, you know, kind of took joint decisions on things, that way I was very lucky that my husband consulted me or talked to me about everything.

00:34:08.840 - 00:34:22.220

So growing up, when, with your parents’ business, is that also how their business worked? As a joint, uh, a family business? I was not involved in their business at all.

00:34:22.960 - 00:34:40.340

But, um… you know, like I said I grew up in an extended family; so it’s not like here, or today in India, if you are well-to-do, you know,

00:34:40.700 - 00:34:56.870

your homes are like here, every child has his own room; and, uh, but when we were growing up, you know, like my parents had one room, and then we had, more couple of rooms which all the siblings shared.

00:34:57.650 - 00:35:08.110

So, and the whole family had one living room; and, uh, whole— we had joint kitchen. So you kind of overheard everything.

00:35:09.040 - 00:35:22.490

You know. Not that I was, uh, giving any advice to my parents about the business. I was too young, anybody would listen to me or, I don’t think so even I had any advice to

00:35:22.550 - 00:35:39.590

give. But when I think about it today, I feel like I could talk to my husband on that level when he was talking to me about his business, because I grew up around business. But not that,

00:35:39.690 - 00:35:56.710

no, I had no invol— I didn’t go to the office, or no involvement in business. So were all your uncles and aunts and your parents, were they all involved in the same business together? Yes they were, there were multiple business and they were all involved.

00:35:56.710 - 00:36:15.730

Everybody must have a responsibility to run it smooth. But yeah, they were involved in, together, in, uh, multiple business or, business they had. Was your classmates and friends growing up

00:36:15.830 - 00:36:36.630

at school, do you know if they came from similar backgrounds to you, and had similar experiences? We, um… as far as experience goes, we— I had friends from my school, obviously we went to the

00:36:37.030 - 00:36:53.060

same school. And, uh, my parents— since I was the first one went to college— my parents were not very, um, they didn’t send me to a school too far away; so I was like going to school within walking distance.

00:36:53.950 - 00:37:12.210

And my friends were also coming from the same backgrounds, they were, um, they may not be as well- off, but– but they were very, from very good families; and um, we were not, uh,

00:37:12.210 - 00:37:24.690

one, we didn’t have a need of finding friends that much because we had so many people at home. And many people live like that over there at that time, joint families or extended

00:37:24.720 - 00:37:40.840

families. Uh, I could never think of, um, my, uh, grandparents staying on their own; even, couldn’t even dream of I will ever come to know about older homes be— you know, they are, exist, never

00:37:40.920 - 00:37:56.870

heard of them, you know, in those days. And, um, so the life was very different. Um, had few friends. Um, and, it was more like

00:37:56.870 - 00:38:10.860

when I was going to college, we walked together. That day I didn’t want to go in my, um, the whole family used to have one or two cars. It was not like in India now: if you have four people in the house you have

00:38:10.860 - 00:38:24.940

four cars. In those days, you didn’t have multiple cars in the family. And uh so, but the day we wanted to walk to the college we, friends will jus— there were no cell phones obviously, and there were no, uh,

00:38:26.390 - 00:38:40.840

phones were not were. In India, Telecom was not as developed. So, we just like, we are walking and we saw that friends walking, so we just walked together. That kind of thing. And, simple life I’ll say.

00:38:41.040 - 00:39:01.880

Okay. Um so when were your children born? How old were you, and how far apart were they born? My first one was born when I was uh, twenty one. And, they are—three are

00:39:01.960 - 00:39:12.080

pretty close together, first three. Uh, but then I had another one. I had four children. Another one after five years. So my older one

00:39:12.260 - 00:39:34.070

and the youngest one has ten year difference. Okay. What was, what was it like when you first had them and were raising them? Um, I don’t know, I, I loved it. I mean, obviously sometimes I felt alone.

00:39:34.070 - 00:39:52.520

Uh, felt alone in a way like uh, I used to f— uh, miss my family a whole lot. Uh, we, uh, could afford some help later on. Uh, but early on we um, I start

00:39:52.910 - 00:40:08.070

taking them to uh “mother’s day out” in the churches. I, near my house there was a church where they— twice a week— they used to have a “mother’s day out”. So I used to take them there and, you know, leave them there.

00:40:08.150 - 00:40:23.140

One, they can interact with other children. And, uh second I got some free time. And, but I loved, uh, raising them. I really did, you know.

00:40:26.620 - 00:40:37.380

So. Are they, do they have different personalities from each other, or are they good friends, through childhood and to this day? They have completely different personalities.

00:40:38.230 - 00:40:54.920

I mean, it actually amazes you. When you, uh, see them, that, I mean, um, all of them are raising their own family now. And, it’s so

00:40:55.030 - 00:41:09.360

fulfilling to see them, uh, raising their own family. And, I’m actually very proud of them. But, it takes you some time to uh, kind of realize that

00:41:10.690 - 00:41:24.630

you raised them in the same household, but how different they are. From going A to B, everybody takes a different route. It’s raising a family or

00:41:24.720 - 00:41:39.080

managing themself or uh, doing their job or whatever they are doing. They all um, I kind of feel they all are very good people. But they have very different way of doing things.

00:41:44.880 - 00:41:57.730

Um, did you, so did you raise them on kind of the same values and expectations you think you were raised with? I think I did. Uh, maybe I didn’t know any different.

00:42:00.740 - 00:42:16.760

Uh, um, one thing I—being not raised here— one thing I never took my children as an individual. I kind of raised them together.

00:42:18.150 - 00:42:38.030

Uh because that’s how I’ve seen it in India. Um, because what happens uh, like my youngest one will, when

00:42:38.030 - 00:42:50.400

she was growing up, she’s... I have a lot of stories to tell about my older, two older ones. Because I have spent more, more time with them; because the–the first

00:42:50.400 - 00:43:00.190

one doesn’t have anybody to play with, so I’m playing with her all the time. Or even I’m learning with her, watching Jeannie with her or watching Lucy with her on the TV.

00:43:00.740 - 00:43:16.930

We both are sitting doing that, you know? I mean, you know. So, especially my youngest one b... Since she’s five year later, she will say, “How come you don’t have any stories to tell about me?” I said well, one I had maybe

00:43:16.930 - 00:43:27.410

more work to do. Uh, I mean I was more busy in other things. And, then second I always thought, “You have siblings to play with.

00:43:28.520 - 00:43:39.230

So I don’t need to sit down and play board games with you.” Or uh, let’s put it that way, I didn’t think much about it. She’s busy, she’s happy, that’s all it mattered.

00:43:40.770 - 00:43:55.860

But –but now, with my grandchildren I make a point to spend time with each one of them individually. Or together. So maybe that’s the difference. I, you know, I’ll say

00:43:56.360 - 00:44:10.650

what I feel today, and what I felt at that time. Is there anything you, you would say that your children have taught you? Um, growing up in America? Yeah. They have taught me a lot actually.

00:44:10.650 - 00:44:25.100

I learned that uh, schooling system here through them. I learned the college system through them. My husband did go to college; but you know, um, he went to, like, um,

00:44:27.880 - 00:44:43.340

he did, he was much later, like in PhD. You really don’t see that much college life at that time. Um, he will like go to work and then in the evening; he’d go to college, and writing thesis, or his

00:44:43.870 - 00:44:58.540

dissertation; or things like that. So at the undergrad level it’s all together very different. Um, with my first uh, daughter, we were not ready to let her go out

00:44:59.250 - 00:45:11.830

for college. And she didn’t get into Rice. And we kind of asked her, “Would you go to University of Houston?” We are very uh... She got in many colleges.

00:45:11.930 - 00:45:23.530

Bryn Mawr, CalTech, and uh, and um, and I think she was also not ready to go. So she went to University of Houston, but when—my

00:45:25.880 - 00:45:41.600

husband went there, so I didn’t think anything much of it. You know even there, he did his Master’s and PhD. So when she went to college I kind of felt what’s the difference in between different colleges.

00:45:42.360 - 00:45:58.880

Uh, I kind of saw, I mean she did great. And, uh study-wise and she came out of there with, with her engineering degree, you know uh, doing good and she did good.

00:45:59.720 - 00:46:16.050

But her college life was very different than when I saw my other friends’ children. And, I decided at that time, later on, uh, I let my children go wherever they want to. Not influence them.

00:46:17.480 - 00:46:34.340

Uh, so, so I kind of learned through them, these things. And, I– I actually learned so much through them. Uh we took them everywhere, we—me and my husband love travelling.

00:46:35.220 - 00:46:51.510

Uh, but my interest of museums, like, my youngest one, um, after high school every uh, child we ask them, “Where we can take you after you do your high school and you get in college?” So she said, “Well take me to Spain

00:46:51.630 - 00:47:03.360

for uh, to visit museums.” And we took her there. And, I mean, I love visiting museum with my children. Like uh,

00:47:03.770 - 00:47:21.250

in Houston we’ll take them to see the stars or you know any new exhibit. But not really, I was not into it. You know like reading every, you know, painter or the art and all that. So very first day I’m just standing

00:47:21.250 - 00:47:37.200

there and looking at the canvases or you know when she’s visiting museum. You know, I said one week I’m going to spend like that, so let me just start reading everything. And really my interest of museum

00:47:37.350 - 00:47:54.560

came from there. It kind of like uh, uh, I got interested when I, you know kind of uh, saw name of a painter that I said, “Hey let me see what other paintings he has.” You know.

00:47:54.850 - 00:48:10.310

And then I start comparing them in my own mind little bit. As you know, new person, and uh, it kind of... I’m still not you know, but I’m, I got very involved later on when I was asked to get involved

00:48:10.310 - 00:48:21.840

at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. And I have been trustee there since six years. So they were making all the Asian galleries and I got involved with the India gallery.

00:48:23.320 - 00:48:40.020

So uh, in many many terms I, many areas, I learned a lot through them. Um, so was that one of the first ways you got involved with the Asian community and Asian art? Or were there other things before that?

00:48:41.400 - 00:48:56.900

Other committees or organizations you were a part of? When they were going to school, uh, me and my husband, together we were always available for kids. For the school.

00:48:57.910 - 00:49:12.510

I mean no matter what, you know, neven if he had to move his business meeting, we always attended their stuff. And, one because I had multiple children, so I wanted to know what they are

00:49:12.510 - 00:49:28.380

doing. So I thought that’s the best way to know what they’re doing if you get involved. And, I think that was my, maybe, little bit, that’s how I started. And then I kind of found it interesting.

00:49:29.990 - 00:49:43.990

Uh, so we were very involved in um, when my children went to St. John I was very involved. I was like, they used to have a senior tea. Uh, we were three four mothers, we would go to mother for

00:49:44.490 - 00:49:58.970

anyone who doesn’t want to do the senior tea, cannot do it that day. And, so, in the same manner when they, my children, you know got in college, they’re all so—I don’t know if that was a good thing or not.

00:49:59.940 - 00:50:15.690

Um, because your children really don’t want you to get involved in school in college. But, we kind of found that out later. But uh you know, we just were very much available.

00:50:17.300 - 00:50:36.320

And, that’s how, and my husband, and uh, always emphasized on studies. We really value study. What were some of the– the organizations, um, you

00:50:37.530 - 00:50:51.660

started working with, in addition to Museum of Fine Arts? And also how did you, why were you asked to be on that committee? Do you know, um, why they chose you and why they thought you would be a good trustee?

00:50:53.940 - 00:51:08.450

Uh, maybe because my background is different. Uh, I kind of feel like, uh, before that I had been involved with the Asia gal–Asian galleries for almost now a number of years.

00:51:08.890 - 00:51:23.600

Uh, they established that about like uh, eighteen years ago, maybe twenty. So maybe they saw me, you know, interested in that. And uh, maybe they wanted somebody on their board with a different background.

00:51:24.660 - 00:51:36.180

Um, which, you know, so that was the reason. Mhm. As in like, someone who is an Indian American woman?

00:51:36.180 - 00:51:54.230

Okay. Okay. And then are you talking about the Asia Society? That– was that what you were a part of for those years? I mean in Houston now, I mean I have been involved now with Asia Society, with

00:51:54.340 - 00:52:12.260

Museum of Fine Arts. Then we, you know since children are grown; one, it um, it kind of serves a purpose for us also. Me and my husband are at a stage of our life where we are

00:52:12.260 - 00:52:27.560

not that busy with children. We like to enjoy the grandkids but don’t want to get too involved in raising them. I mean, do everyday stuff. And, I’m lucky that they are in Houston; so I fairly,

00:52:28.530 - 00:52:41.600

I see them a lot. Uh but, being involved in other things, um, makes me feel good. And my husband.

00:52:41.600 - 00:52:56.190

So, so we feel like we are uh, you know, we are lucky that way. That we have an opportunity to get involved in so many things. What have you learned about art, or from the art community… over

00:52:58.080 - 00:53:13.590

time? Just eh, another world out there. You know? I mean there is so much to learn, you know? So while you are here, you just enjoy it I guess.

00:53:14.030 - 00:53:28.500

You know. I would, I won’t call myself to be a part of that world, but I really appreciate uh, you know uh, um, the people who are like, who do art and who are involved in art.

00:53:29.060 - 00:53:44.250

You know in a big way. But uh I myself feel like yesterday we were at the museum, for one of the exhibit, and Museum of Fine Arts has started doing every summer something

00:53:44.250 - 00:53:56.280

which attracts a lot of school kids and children. And they have done this pendulum—I don’t know if you guys have gone there and seen it. The Museum of Fine Arts.

00:53:57.550 - 00:54:12.890

The pendulum, it swings, pend— gosh, it’s so like, you know like yesterday I was for another dinner and I wanted to jump in there, and do it, you know? It just uh, you know?

00:54:12.980 - 00:54:28.810

Uh, even if you don’t think of art seriously, it’s so much fun. You know. So. What are some of your other hopes for the future in your own life?

00:54:28.870 - 00:54:44.160

Um, I want to stay healthy. Uh I you know really want to stay healthy. Um, have, you know, good time with my grandkids.

00:54:44.220 - 00:54:55.020

Three of them are in high school now. So I hardly get to spend time with them. Uh, but uh, I don’t know. I just uh feel very blessed.

00:54:56.060 - 00:55:13.420

Uh, that they are in Houston, and um, I think. Oh, I really pray every day that people around me, uh, stay. I know it’s not possible but, people

00:55:13.420 - 00:55:26.590

around me and my friends and uh, you know they stay healthy I stay healthy and, uh, you know. So. Do you have any religious or spiritual beliefs?

00:55:26.590 - 00:55:39.990

You and, or your family? I very strongly believe, uh, in my religion. Uh, not strongly, I didn’t mean it that way that I want to convert anybody.

00:55:41.320 - 00:55:59.890

But uh, I really believe there is somebody up there, who um, who controls, I won’t say control destiny, but He has a lot in his hand. And, you know?

00:56:00.660 - 00:56:16.180

So you just, you know, you just pray that, you know you are everywhere at the right time. And, you know and try to do the right things. I know it’s not possible to do the right things all the time.

00:56:18.500 - 00:56:32.170

At least the intentions are good. Is that something you mostly do on your own, or do you have a community or congregation you are with? We have a big Indian family.

00:56:32.710 - 00:56:48.250

And, then we have a um, we know lot of people in American, uh, society also. So we feel very lucky, that um.

00:56:49.940 - 00:57:05.760

And like I said, I– me and my husband both realized that uh, this is my country now. And, my, this is going to be home for my grandchildren, my great grandchildren.

00:57:06.720 - 00:57:26.180

So in any little way we can leave, I hope they will always remember, or, where they have come from. Uh, you know, and I kind of realized that they are American first.

00:57:27.080 - 00:57:44.170

And, but I– I hope they remember their roots and they remember their values. And um, and we kind of leave a—we are a good part of this

00:57:44.170 - 00:58:10.590

society. You know and they become a good part of this society too. How do you, or how are you seeing America change or Houston change? Um, I really can’t, I’m not very— I’m Republican. Because my husband is Republican

00:58:10.620 - 00:58:28.940

and we both, you know, we don’t believe in some of the things which are going on. But uh, but we hardcore, we are Republicans. And, I don’t know I mean, over time, world is changing.

00:58:30.190 - 00:58:44.010

I hope that it’s going to be peace everywhere. And, you know. Uh, don’t really think about it that much. Mhm. Do you focus mostly on your

00:58:46.480 - 00:59:01.660

own family? Um, I mean we, like I said, my husband, and we both believe in supporting people political-wise. Uh, candidates you can say, uh because

00:59:03.020 - 00:59:12.540

it makes a difference. And this is our home now. But –but we don’t, I’m not running for anything.

00:59:14.270 - 00:59:29.580

I just have a, you know, uh, I don’t, you know, think about it that much, like, policies and all that. Yeah. Um, do you have any music or books you like?

00:59:33.810 - 00:59:44.150

Or that you’re getting into right now, discovering? I h-... it’s uh, I like reading magazines a whole lot. And I like reading newspaper every

00:59:44.150 - 00:59:57.900

day. I still don’t feel the same when I see pictures, just on the computer or um. I’ve told my children just give me a photo book whenever you want to give me

00:59:57.900 - 01:00:12.780

something. Still feel, I feel a different satisfaction when the picture is in my hand. So in the same manner, when I’m reading something out of the newspaper, that’s a different, uh kind of um,

01:00:15.510 - 01:00:34.590

meaning to me than reading newspaper off the phone. Uh, so I still order a lot of magazines. Times and, you know not that I read from back to front, and front

01:00:34.590 - 01:00:52.160

to back or back to front; but I do like reading so that I know what’s going on. And the same with other magazines, so I order a lot of magazines, flip through them, and you know. Uh, and–and if it’s a

01:00:52.160 - 01:01:09.440

nice book I like reading it; but I don’t read, I’m not a uh, I used to be, used to read lot of, um, books in my Indian language when I was growing up, uh in college. But when I came here I didn’t have time to read

01:01:09.690 - 01:01:22.450

any books. So kind of many years went by in between, uh, not reading. So it was more like flipping through the magazines when I’m raising the family, and just get to know the world,

01:01:22.650 - 01:01:36.340

what’s going on everywhere. Uh, so, my habit is kind of gone of uh, I’ve tried to uh, I’ve tried to rebuild it, but I’ve not been able to do it.

01:01:36.390 - 01:01:51.000

Uh, I still love reading uh somebody’s life story, or uh somebody’s— to me that’s like— a story. Uh, I love doing that, like you know,

01:01:53.390 - 01:02:04.540

um, we are going to leave on a trip so I’m going to read, read Michelle Obama, and uh, you know, so couple of books I have in mind. Those ones I love reading.

01:02:04.880 - 01:02:17.680

But I don’t pick up a, just a thick book and start reading. Yeah. Do your children grow up also learning your language? Your original language?

01:02:19.140 - 01:02:34.140

My children, two older one, they do. Uh, because we visit in India so often. And then uh, we actually lived in India for five years in between.

01:02:35.260 - 01:02:57.960

Uh, me and my husband really wanted to, them to be, close to… Is it important? I’m so sorry.

01:02:58.110 - 01:03:08.780

Oh, that’s fine. We should have done that in the beginning. It’s okay. Um, where… Oh, your children, and you lived in India for five years.

01:03:09.640 - 01:03:25.910

Oh, for five years, because, uh, we both grew up with family, uh, I mean, extended family. We um, really wanted children to experience that. So, we uh, not that we left the US, our house was here.

01:03:26.540 - 01:03:42.040

We used to come here for summer, and they went to school there for five years. Um, they didn’t go to Indian school, they went to American embassy school. Uh we kind of did that because we were not sure

01:03:43.160 - 01:03:57.840

what we were, we are doing will be successful. If the children will be happy, or because of my, because of my husband business, we may not be able to do it. We might have to come back in between.

01:03:58.330 - 01:04:11.980

So we thought this is the safest route to take. If they are in American embassy school, then shifting back and forth won’t be a problem. There won’t be a huge gap for them to s— learn a new

01:04:12.600 - 01:04:26.370

ropes and kind of, you know, get into the American system. Because my youngest one started kindergarten there. So it was way back. So my two older one were uh,

01:04:27.400 - 01:04:39.550

my older daughter, she was in high school. So basically she was older she learned my language very, she speaks even now fluently. And same with my son.

01:04:40.340 - 01:04:53.350

But two younger one came back when they were young so they understand quite a bit, I wouldn’t say all of it; but they cannot, when they are speaking you can tell they are not from there. But two

01:04:53.510 - 01:05:09.810

older ones, um, they can very well, nobody will make out they grew up here. They can speak very fluently. When you returned there, for those five years, how was it different, um, did it feel very familiar, or

01:05:09.910 - 01:05:28.440

did you realize things you hadn’t learned before, growing up? It was different. Actually, uh, most unhappy person was me. Uh, which was very, uh, unexpected I thought it would be the easiest for me.

01:05:29.740 - 01:05:44.210

Um, children got busy with their school and uh, all their friends were—they found a lot of cousins to visit them all the time or they visit. And, they had.

01:05:44.660 - 01:05:53.830

You know, friends were all from here or all from different part of the world, in American embassy school. So I think it was really good for them.

01:05:53.890 - 01:06:08.760

Their horizon kind of developed and uh, they kind of got into—school was very, very small at the time. Uh, so they had like, ten student to a teacher.

01:06:09.960 - 01:06:24.190

And then they used to have a full fledged Indian teacher with the American teacher who used to be called teacher’s aide. Uh, in fact it was very hard for them but they came back to settle down, especially the youngest one.

01:06:25.370 - 01:06:43.910

Um, she didn’t pick up her papers when they dropped on the floor. Somebody was there to do it, and uh, it just, just, it took her some time to adjust back into the system. Uh, but

01:06:44.370 - 01:06:52.530

it all worked out really good. And my husband got busy. He used to travel a lot back and forth because of business. So he stayed busy with that.

01:06:53.540 - 01:07:08.540

So I was the one who was putting up with all the family politics and family business. So that was extra because after living here, kind of got away with that whenever we visited everybody was so nice to us.

01:07:08.590 - 01:07:23.010

But when I was there, not that everybody was not nice, but it just, I had to, carry on the family business just like everybody else was doing. Uh, and that kind of took some time to get used to.

01:07:26.060 - 01:07:38.500

You know you have family responsibility when you live in the family. So, uh, so it takes a, you know, a little bit time to get in the rhythm. Um, do you

01:07:43.350 - 01:08:01.270

have any other memories or stories or hopes or advice you’d like to talk about? Um, I mean nowadays the world has become so global. I mean uh, when we came,

01:08:02.750 - 01:08:16.980

I mean America was so far away. Um and going back was like, travelling was not easy. Not bad either, but uh, it just felt very far away, which it doesn’t any more.

01:08:18.100 - 01:08:30.460

It is, but it doesn’t feel that way. Uh, uh, I don’t know. Uh, I mean, I came here, uh,

01:08:33.630 - 01:08:49.280

with my husband, and uh, I think we were very lucky, we made a good life for ourself. Um, and now my family’s here. And, they are going to be here, so.

01:08:49.280 - 01:09:04.990

Cool. Alright. Do you have any other questions, Sarah? I think I’m good. Yeah. Well, if that’s all for you, then thank you so much for coming. Yeah, I don’t, I didn’t know what to answer.

01:09:05.520 - 01:09:19.870

I just did –did the best, did the best or whatever came to my mind. This is a story like you were saying, it’s, I mean, the same way you like to read history which is stories. That’s what you have, too.

01:09:20.530 - 01:09:35.520

Thank you so much. No, thank you. Uh, good luck to both of you. Thank you so much. I came here after marriage. Yeah and uh, so when I went back, and all of a sudden I’m like,

01:09:35.630 - 01:09:49.610

with my, and another thing is, I don’t have any siblings of my husband’s, all mine there. So we are the only one, two of us are here. And now my family.

01:09:50.210 - 01:10:06.940

So I have never juggled a family. So, when I went there for five years, I mean, we didn’t know how much time we will spend. But uh, so then I got there

01:10:07.240 - 01:10:20.450

all of a sudden, I had to worry about the mother-in-law, I have to worry about the sister-in-law, I have to, protocol like, you know, like, in India, people eat dinner at eight o’clock, nine o’clock.

01:10:21.040 - 01:10:39.500

My children eat dinner at five because that’s how they ate in Houston.. So I’m actually like, you know, you are like whole day you are planning. And, I mean I can tell my mother-in-law is visiting, “Oh you eat at five too with all the children.” You know,

01:10:39.900 - 01:10:56.540

so I just, it– it just, the whole different, you know. And if I uh, in the beginning, I said let’s keep Indian dinner time. So Indian dinner time is late, so my children already had eaten so much

01:10:56.540 - 01:11:11.470

snacks. That no, at dinner time nobody wants to eat, so I had to switch back. It– it just, figuring the whole thing out actually took me almost six months. To,

01:11:11.620 - 01:11:27.610

and then here, I’m not used to house help. There, you know, I have like so much house help. I mean, you have otherwise, you know, I mean, it just uh... Then finally we decided we are just going to have one.

01:11:27.730 - 01:11:39.780

We let everybody go. And we, you know, in the evening, we were, we said, like you know, at the distance you kind of feel like with your house help,

01:11:39.780 - 01:11:49.960

you’re too strict with them. You kind of feel like when you go and visit India, that, so I, my and my husband are very very polite with them.

01:11:50.690 - 01:12:02.860

And in place of them thinking we are nice, they think we are fools. Oh! Oh no, okay. You know. You know, they kind of like, you know uh, in place of we

01:12:02.860 - 01:12:11.630

are running them, they were running us. You know, like they will come and tell us something, you know. “It should be done that way.” I said, “Yeah, he’s saying it, let it, do it that way.”

01:12:12.110 - 01:12:23.800

Then later we find out these guys have figured it out. They both have, they and their children are too polite, they’re too nice. Like in India everybody goes to school with the ironed clothes

01:12:23.800 - 01:12:34.290

and, you know, like uh—but when my children went to American embassy school, they saw that kids are coming in wrinkled shorts. Because it’s so hot there, you know.

01:12:34.420 - 01:12:43.810

And, all those uh, Bermuda, you know, kind of—so, so my driver is telling them, “You’re going to go to school in these clothes!”

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“Everybody will think you just woke up.” You know? Uh it– it’s just the cultural thing you know? I mean uh, it is just literal, that even kids learned, none of his business what he, we, wear, you know?

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I mean you know, So you don’t answer them back; or you know, you just, like, once you make a straight face, they don’t say it again. But it–it’s just the whole learning process was amusing.

01:13:18.930 - 01:13:36.760

Uh, and uh, it was nice, you know, I think it makes you little bit uh, worldy. Or how you put it, I don’t know. Even now when we go, when we visit our family they, after dinner, you know the

01:13:36.760 - 01:13:47.420

help is coming to take your plate. And even my, even when we lived there, we told them, you don’t have to come and pick up our plate. My children will take their plate in the kitchen.

01:13:48.400 - 01:14:00.320

And then they will get so comfortable, they won’t do it for my guests either. So I tell them, “When guest comes you do pick up the plate! They will think I don’t have anybody!” “They’re taking their own

01:14:00.360 - 01:14:16.530

plate to the...” and if you have lived in Asia you know. Yeah, yeah, we have. We had a helper there as well. Yeah. So all these things are kind of, you know, uh, uh— We actually had that too, I grew up when I was really young for five years in West

01:14:17.870 - 01:14:31.730

Africa. Yeah. It’s a long story but— It’s a very worldly group here today. So I, I mean I was young so I don’t have very many, like I didn’t understand very much what was going on and, I was still young when I came here, so adjusting wasn’t that much, but

01:14:32.030 - 01:14:43.920

yeah we also had housekeepers and like a yard person… Yes, and a driver. I mean those are kind of taken, like, I mean they’re there, you

01:14:43.950 - 01:15:01.380

know? But you need a skill to run them also, you know run your staff also. So it uh, it– it just uh, I think uh, I lived here for uh, came in ‘71 and we went to India in ‘85.

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So I lived here fifteen years and uh, those, that was a long time. And I never lived as a adult there. Or ran my own house. So, I did things very differently than everybody else would do.

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And, it is very much Asian culture to tell you what to do. Well, I enjoyed talking to you guys. Yeah, I enjoyed it too.