- Title
- Sulekh Jain oral history interview
-
-
- Identifier
- wrc17871
-
-
- Date
- June 17 2022
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- People and Organizations
- ["Jain, Sulekh","Ma, Emily (interviewer)"]
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- Subject
- ["Community and social work","Academics","Religion","Crime","Asian Americans"]
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- Abstract
- Dr. Sulekh Jain was interviewed previously by the archive in February of 2017. In his second interview, he expands more on his work organizing Jain communities across the country, as well as his tireless establishment of Jain classes and research programs in academic institutions. Dr. Jain also emphasizes his optimism on the future of Jainism in the country and reflects on the crucial impact that Jain principles can have on younger generations who have grown almost accustomed to violence and tragedies such as school shootings and racial hate crimes.
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- Description
- This recording and transcript form part of a collection of oral history interviews conducted by the Chao Center for Asian Studies at Rice University. This collection includes audio recordings and transcripts of interviews with Asian Americans native to or living in Houston.
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- Location
- ["Texas--Houston"]
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- Source
- Houston Asian American Archives oral history interviews, MS 573, Woodson Research Center, Fondren Library, Rice University
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- Rights
- ["The copyright holder for this material has granted Rice University permission to share this material online. It is being made available for non-profit educational use. Permission to examine physical and digital collection items does not imply permission for publication. Fondren Library’s Woodson Research Center / Special Collections has made these materials available for use in research, teaching, and private study. Any uses beyond the spirit of Fair Use require permission from owners of rights, heir(s) or assigns. See http://library.rice.edu/guides/publishing-wrc-materials"]
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- Format
- ["Video"]
-
- Format Genre
- ["oral histories"]
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- Time Span
- ["2020s"]
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- Repository
- ["Special Collections"]
-
- Special Collections
- ["Houston Asian American Archive","Houston and Texas History"]
-
Sulekh Jain oral history interview
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Houston Asian American Archive (HAAA)
Chao Center for Asian Studies, Rice University
Interviewee: Sulekh Jain
Interviewer: Emily Ma
Interview Date: June 17, 2022
Transcribed by: Emily Ma
Reviewed by: Hannah Son and Muyao Huang
Track Time: 53:19
Background:
Dr. Sulekh Jain was interviewed previously by the archive in February of 2017. In his second interview, he
expands more on his work organizing Jain communities across the country, as well as his tireless establishment of
Jain classes and research programs in academic institutions. Dr. Jain also emphasizes his optimism on the future
of Jainism in the country and reflects on the crucial impact that Jain principles can have on younger generations
— who have grown almost accustomed to violence and tragedies such as school shootings and racial hate crimes.
Setting:
This interview was conducted and recorded over Zoom, in the interviewee’s and interviewer’s respective homes.
Key:
SJ: Sulekh Jain
EM: Emily Ma
—: speech cuts off; abrupt stop
…: speech trails off; pause
Italics: emphasis
(?): preceding word may not be accurate
[Brackets]: actions (laughs, sighs, etc.)
Interview transcript:
EM: So today I'm here with Dr. Sulekh Jain for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice. Today is Friday,
June 17, 2022, and my name is Emily Ma. And—so, the archive previously interviewed Dr. Jain in 2017 for his
life story and experiences, and today's interview will be more of a follow up on his pioneering of Jainism at
various institutions and communities across the country. So starting with Houston, how has the Jain Society of
Houston changed over the past couple of years? And are you still involved with it?
SJ: Well, number one, Emily, the Jain Society of Houston was established in 1981, 41 years ago, when I moved
from Boston to Houston. That time–that time there was a group of Jains, maybe 40, 50, 60 families, but they were
not organized. So, the Jain Society was formally organized in 1981, and we received the IRS approval. Since that
time, the community has grown from—because of many, many factors. The—some of the factors are that people
move—more people move because job opportunities in Houston area, because immigration of many, many people
from India. So, now the community is about 800 to 900 people—families, so you can see a significant growth.
With that growth, there are many, many challenges and many, many opportunities that came. They—about 25
years ago, the Jain Society of Houston, at that time, they bought a—not a very big, not a very large, not a fancy
building on Arc Street, A-R-C Street in Houston, which is off of Beltway 8, okay? And they established the place
of worship. So the community goes there on every Sunday. And they've been meeting there for many, many years.
Also, during that time about 20 years ago, maybe–maybe around 1999 or 2000, one more Jain place of worship
was established on Highway 6—off Highway 6, on Schiller Road. S-C-H-I-L-L-E-R. That is meant for—purely
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for yoga and meditation. But the community over there also does many of the things that the bigger Jain Society
does.
In terms of activities, significant activities have grown, number one. We have—when we talk of 800 Jain families,
this means we have a significant number of Jain youth, okay, who were born here. And their mother tongue is
English, okay? So the community, every Sunday—I'm talking the Jain Society of Houston, every Sunday, they
offer what we call Pathshala, or what we call in [Sunday School] Sunday study, Bible study. Of course, they study
Jainism. And somewhere of the order of 350 students, Jain youth, they come every Sunday to have organized this
teaching module to study Jainism. The Jain youth have become very, very active, and many, many—they meet
regularly, they go out on various trips, okay? They have various camps. The other thing is that many of these
youth have also taken up, I would say, fairly good amount of leadership position in the Jain community, rather
than only older people, okay? Even though the older people, the first-generation immigrants, are still pretty
strong, but the younger people are coming.
The–the–the women have also become very strong. In fact, this one woman I know, her name is Urvashi Jain, she
was the president of the Jain Society of Houston for I think about four years. Okay, so this is something new, that
women are also getting there. They're also in the Executive Committee, which is elected every two years. They're
also in the Board of Trustees. So they have many, many positions of responsibility and power, okay? The Jain
community gets involved many, many projects in raising funds for various welfare projects. And during the
COVID period, they did many donations to the local community, and outside the Jains, they also donated food;
they also donated computer tablets to disadvantaged children. And–and also they helped—many, many of our Jain
doctors, physicians, they offered their services to the people at no cost, okay? I'm–I’m talking things outside the
Jain community, okay? So, Jain community is very vibrant, and now they have bought a 14—I think 13 or 14 acre
of land on the west of Houston, in Aliana area, and they are looking to build a bigger place of worship with
significant number of rooms for teaching over there. So, I think Jain community in Houston is very much on the
upswing.
EM: Yeah, that’s great to hear. Like you said, it sounds like a very vibrant community [SJ: Yes.] that does a lot to
help other people as well. So, at least when you were more directly involved with it, how–how difficult was it to
kind of work—logistically organize everything, so that you had all those youth programs, and worship, and just
the general infrastructure?
SJ: Well, nothing comes easy. It takes time, because the community—the Jain community is not a monolithic
community. By that means is in India, there is so much variation, which part of India they come from and what
part—which branch of Jainism you follow. There are four branches, four different sects, so—and different
languages. So, we’re bringing them together and leaving aside the sectarianism, okay, that we have in India, not
here. So, practically coming together without all of that was a little challenge. The example is that in India—there
are two major traditions in Jainism in India for thousands of years: what we call Śvētāmbaras and Digambaras,
okay? These are the two terminology. 97% are very similar, but 3% to 4% are a little bit—what shape of the idols
in the Jain temple should be, what place—how do we worship, and few other things, very minor. So, in India, it is
very, very difficult to find a common, non-sectarian Jain temple or place of worship, where both of these
traditions will be represented, okay?
But in America, and including in Houston, we have all those traditions, all four traditions. In fact, all of them are
represented at one place, which is—probably is not easy to find in India. So, we broke many, many of those walls
that exist over there, not here, okay? Similarly, people from all four traditions come there. The–the Sunday
Pathshala, what we call Sunday school, that also covers all the four traditions. Monks, and nuns, and other people,
and scholar, they visit quite often, and during summer especially. They also come from four—all four traditions.
So, more and more, this whole idea, this paradigm, kept on progressing further and further. And so,
people–people—Jains are very highly educated people: the maximum number, in fact, the highest literacy
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rate–literacy rate among all the Indians in India, as well as areas amongst Jains. And women are significantly
higher literacy, education rates. And now they are going into many, many professions, if you look at—even at
Rice, or when you look at medical schools or other places, there are probably more women now, representation,
than it used to be, okay? So slowly, slowly it changes, because we set kind of rules and regulations, or this—or the
model 40 years ago. So it is easier now than it used to be, or would have been 40 years ago, okay?
EM: Yeah, that's really good to hear. And how has COVID kind of impacted that, especially at the Jain Society,
like the programs and activities?
SJ: Well, let me first tell you, I was in Houston when we started for four years. And then from ‘81 to ’85…’84,
’85, I moved out of Houston, okay? So, I went to Cincinnati, Ohio. But I used to visit quite often, okay, but not in
any leadership role, okay? But about 1998, I moved back to Houston, when I took full retirement from my job in
Cincinnati, Ohio. And then I was involved, again not much in the leadership role, but as a guiding role, okay? So
since that time, I have helped them wherever I could. And also the thing that happened, even before I moved to
Houston back from Cincinnati, I had a very top, apex leadership role in the entire Jain community in North
America, what we call a Federation of Jain Associations in North America, which represents all the Jains and all
the Jain centers. So it is the central body. And I was first four years as the Secretary, and first—the next four
years, I was the President of this association. So that also gave me a little bit clout, if you will, leadership, where I
can say things and they will listen. So, my role—but again, now for the last four years, I have moved out of
Houston. I now live in Las Vegas. But my involvement is still there. And my son, who is a Rice alumni who
graduated from Rice University in 1985, okay, long time ago, and he's a physician, and he's been there for the last
41 years in Houston. He still lives there. And he's also a member of the executive committee of the Jain Society of
Houston. So he also provides this much needed—because he’s a–he’s a second generation of Indians, okay? So he
provide that link to the first generation, so quite active.
EM: Yeah, and I think you also mentioned in the previous interview that your grandchildren as well are also
interested in Jainism?
SJ: Yes, my grandchildren are now much more grown up than when you did the first interview, 2017, I think.
They both are alumni of Rice University. My older granddaughter, Priyanka Jain, she graduated three years ago,
that was 2019, from Rice University. And she is a computer engineer at Apple Computer in San Francisco. And
she grew up with the Jain tradition, okay, naturally, the whole philosophy. And in fact, the even second one,
Divya, who is now 23, she just graduated from Rice University only about a month and a half ago, a month ago,
okay? So, they have the Jain values. Jain values means respect for others, respect and the non-violence, okay?
They observe all of those non-violence, unconditional non-violence. And food, which, of course, all Jains are
vegetarian, okay? And to the extent that some of us are—I am now become a vegan for many, many years. And
all these children, my whole family, either they are vegetarian, or many, many times they are vegan as well.
So—and they also give back to the community. My—both the granddaughters, especially the older one, because
she is a earning member, she gives quite a good of contribution to the—to Rice University. So do my other
children, to the extent that in 2017, I think, we established Bhagwan Mahavir, and also Chao family postdoctoral
fellowship in Jain Studies at Rice University, okay? And my children and Priyanka and others, they have been
contributing, helping financially to that program. So, they are quite a lot involved with Jain values.
EM: Yeah, that's really cool. You must be very proud of them. [SJ: Yes.] So, I had a question about Jainism as a
religion: so, you explained previously that it doesn't require any official rites of entry, such as baptism, and you
can also be Jain while also belonging to other faiths such as Christianity or–or Islam. So, do you think this open,
welcoming aspect of Jainism helped establish a foothold in the US?
SJ: Number one, there is no title, and there is no proselytizing, and there is no conversion in Jainism. What you
convert is your thinking, your mind, not–not the label of your religion. You could be Is-Islamic, Muslim, or
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Christian, or Jew, or whatever, okay? How you do the worship, what God do you believe in, what faith you have,
that's fine. Anybody who believes and practices non-violence to all fellow beings, humans and nonhumans, okay?
It's not just humans only, but nonhumans as well. Anybody who believes and practices non-violence, not only just
for food, but also in daily relationships with other people. Also, relationship with—race relationship, in business
where you are hiring people, and not discriminating them on the basis of their ethnicity, or religion, or gender,
okay? That is Jainism. So it is a—it is not something going to Sunday to a–to a place of worship and just saying
your prayers. No, it is a prayer that you practice 24/7, inside and outside the place of worship, in your life, daily
life. So, that's what Jainism is all about. So, all this—such basic philosophy of, is–is unconditional non-violence: I
will not harm anyone, I will not cause harm on anyone, and I will be a support and a help to those people who
have been harmed, or were afflicted. This means what we call, “Live and help others to live.” “Live and help
others to live.” Okay, so I’ll not be just a bystander if I see somebody else in pain or suffering or whatever. What
can I do to help those, okay? To remove their suffering? That's Jainism.
EM: I see. And since Jainism is, as you mentioned, it's a non-proselytizing religion, how do you bring awareness
to people who aren't familiar with it, but might be interested in joining it?
SJ: We are very small minority in India. We are not even 1% of the total population of India, okay? In India, of
course, because of our affluence, because of our penetration into many, many activities, because of the whole
feeling of their culture of giving back to the community, not the Jain, but to the entire community, Jain-Jainism
and Jains are everywhere known. They have places to worship, thousands and thousands. Some of them are the
most beautiful temples and places of worship in India, and in the world, are Jain temples, okay? So, over here,
naturally, Jainism is not known, or was not known. And there is no proselytizing, but we have made these 70, 80
places of worship that we have throughout America. They are kind of ambassador, okay? They meet with people,
they work with people of other faiths, okay, other traditions, and they share all their–their values by practice,
okay? So that way, they come to know a little bit about Jainism.
The other thing, significantly, what we have done during the last, I would say, 15 years, that we have established
nearly 30, three-zero, endowed chairs, and endowed professorships, and postdoctoral fellowship, in about 25, 30
universities in this country, including the one we had at Rice University. So, now when we have this, what is
happening? So, in every position and every academic position, there are 20, 30, 40, 100 students. They take
courses, classes, they're introduced to Jainism. Not–not Jains, not Indians, okay, but these are people who've never
heard of Jainism, okay? So, I would say every semester, every quarter, probably throughout the country, maybe
2000, 3000 students are exposed to Jainism and its philosophy, okay? So that way, at least the more and
more—they–they know that there is a religion which is as old as India, which is as old as Hinduism, and older
than Buddhism, okay, that exists. So, more and more people. The other thing that are happening, more
publications are coming out, symposiums, conferences, seminars, okay? And so, with that, I think there is more
awareness, a little bit more, not so huge, about Jainism. So, I think that has a little bit more awareness.
EM: Yeah, that's great that education is kind of helping to bring awareness to it. [SJ: Yes.] So, as a result, have
you seen many non-Indian people or families that have begun following Jainism?
SJ: I think it comes in many ways, okay? First of all, we don't look around what—how they follow and what way
they follow, okay? And it's not something Jainism, but do they follow ahimsa, non-violence, okay, in there. And
there are many, many examples. One is in this country, significant number of people are adapting to veganism,
okay? Veg—so these people, naturally, when they go to veganism, some do it for–for economy, some do it for
health benefits, some do it for not harming, not hurting, okay, and in their lifestyle. So, in doing so, then they
come to know slowly, slowly, which religion, which philosophy, has been promoting this lifestyle for thousands of
years, okay? When they look at more and more, then they find out it was the Jain tradition, Jain religion,
which–which explained, which propounded–which propounded, which, you know, talked about this philosophy.
So, that way, they are not Jain, we don't want them to become Jain, in a way: this is not title, but they are as good
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as Jain, okay, as any Jain could be. So that way, they are, I would say, running away from businesses, investments,
in those unethical—or that harm the environment or the ecology, they will not (?). So, these people—so I will say,
more and more people are following Jain way of life. Not Jainism, okay? Jain way of life. So, I think it's a little bit
more known than it used to be.
EM: I see. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, so do you see any big barriers to people starting to follow that
Jain way of life in the US?
SJ: Ah, big barriers? Can be and are. One is that the first generation, there's a gap, a communication gap from
first generation to second to third, okay? I'm talking within Jain. Because the first generation wants to bring the
same type of Jainism that exists in India, okay? That second and third generation is a lot more educated. And
every time, they will ask, “Why?” “How come?” “Why do you do this?” Okay? They are questioning, okay? They
are also looking at the scientific basis of Jainism, okay, because they're scientists, they're inquisitive, they're—not
simply because “I said so.” So, in–in that way, there's a much better dialogue. So, Jain, I would say, its relevance
in today's society is being looked at, okay, not purely as a dogma, not purely because his or her parents did that,
but what is relevant, okay? So, that way, it's a challenge. And we are moving in that direction. The education
institutions are helping us, okay? But the number of our youth that are involved into this one, I would say, is
not–not up to the level that we would like to see, okay? So, it's a still a small percentage of youth that are
involved. And the other one is that there's youth go to the Jain Pathshala or Jain Sunday school, but once they go
to college, then they do not have the same backing at the university. Even though now, we are providing these
academic institution where Jain is—previously, there was none. So, they get disconnected from the Jain
communities here. We are trying to bring them back to their values. So, there is a challenge, but I think slowly,
slowly, the second generation will be—and then mass media, the internet, the—so much information is available,
that is also helping so many groups now, discussion groups, okay, that have come up. So, I think things are
looking pretty good.
EM: So you have more of a optimistic view of the future of Jain youth?
SJ: I'm always optimistic. I talk to many, many youth, all the time. And this whole optimism—15 years ago, we
could not even get to one university for Jain studies. Today, we are practically at 25, 30 universities. And since we
are opening up these chairs, and other positions, and—there are about 15 to 17 more universities, which are not
funded by us. They are also started offering courses and classes in Jainism, because they thought that, now,
Jainism is becoming well-known. So, I would say 45 to 47 universities offer regular courses and classes in
Jainism. So, that–that is very optimistic, that is—optimistic, I mean, very good, which we could never think of 15,
20 years ago, that we will have that much presence in academia. And that opens up many, many doors. These
people who are come out of these schools, learning about Jainism, naturally, they go to become managers, they
become influential people. And they will remember some of the philosophies of Jainism: “Hey, I learned this,
something over my—in my course.”
Give you one example. There is one professor, he is now a professor of Jainism at a university in Los Angeles. He
is not a Jain. He was born and raised here, in–in I think Catholic tradition, okay? And—but one day, when he was
an undergraduate student, okay? Very hard—very good example. One day, when he was a undergraduate
student—he comes from meat eating family, he comes from all the regular people that do. So, when he was there,
one of his teachers, who was not a Jain, he gave a lecture—he or she gave a lecture on non-violence. Okay? Just
because non-violence is not a monopoly of Jains only, okay? So—and the assignment was given to the entire class
as a homework, that you go and sit in the hallway right now. And on a piece of paper, write your reflection about
ahimsa, about non-violence. Okay, that was the assignment. Because if you don't do this now, tomorrow, day after,
next week, you'll forget. So, this class, 15, 20, 30 students, they're sitting in the hallway, this person, his name is
Christopher Miller, by the way, okay? He was sitting against a wall. On a piece of paper, he started writing his
reflection about what he had learned in the class on–on non-violence. While he was doing so, there was a
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lizard–lizard that was on that wall. So that was bothering him. Naturally, he got scared. He stood up. And, Emily,
very–very good example. He stood up, took his shoe out to kill that lizard. He has a shoe in his hand, trying to hit
the lizard. And his hand stopped. Why? He said, “You are a fool. You are going to write an assignment, you're
going to write reflection on ahimsa, nonviolence, and your all actions are killing, violence. This doesn't go
together.” Okay, so then he started reflecting what non-violence means, so much so that he became
completely—not only a vegan, but did many, many things. And now, done with his PhD, I think from University
of California Davis, and then he has been teaching Jainism at Loyola Marymount University as an Endowed
Professor.
What he did, okay, because this is how you change mind—two years ago, I called him on Thanksgiving Day,
because I've known him. And I said, “Chris, Happy Thanksgiving.” He said, “What Happy Thanksgiving?” He
said, “Don't you know that 50 million turkeys were killed, just for celebration of the Thanksgiving? This is not a
Thank—is this a Thanksgiving to the turkeys who were slaughtered? At least 50 million?” Okay, so that pained
him. This causeless cruelty, killing, murder, okay, and—that took place just to celebrate that one year—one
festival. So, I asked him, “What are you doing today, Chris?” He said, he's observing as a repentance to those
turkeys that have been killed. He is observing a 36 hour fast. 36 hour fast. And I felt so small. I said, “I’m—being
a Jain, I should be doing that too.” Okay? Which I did not, okay, so he wake me—woke me up, my conscious,
okay? So, just last Thanksgiving, which was in November 2021, with—he energized us to celebrate a more
non-violent Thanksgiving, okay? What did we do? On that day, because of his leadership, the Jain community
throughout America, we distributed 147,000 vegan free meals, free meals, to those people, homeless people. At
the same time, that day, probably I would have 400 people. Two years ago, he was alone who did the fasting. This
year, 400 Jain people, they did the fasting on that day. Okay? All—so what I'm saying is, this is how this thing,
you know, percolates and becomes more and more. So, we are changing minds, okay? Another thing he is trying
to do at Loyola Marymount University, LMU, is that in all their colleges, or cafeterias, or dorms, naturally, the
food that is available is non-veg, to the students. And he is working that vegan meals will be the first choice, and
non-meat—non-veg meal will be on asking, okay, on order. And it will not be the first availability. So, what–what
has changed his kind of way? This is good for ecology, this is good for Earth, this is good for environment, and
this is good for health.
EM: Wow, that’s really inspiring to hear. And it's amazing, he grew up in a meat-eating family and then it sounds
like he had a–a huge switch in mentality, and then, yeah, [SJ: Yes.] that's really inspiring, yeah. So, we've been
seeing a surge in violence throughout the US causing a lot of tragedies such as mass shootings and racial hate
crimes. And because Jainism is centered around philosophies including non-violence, what are your perspectives
on the current state of violence in the US? And how do you think Jain practices and beliefs can help inspire our
society to do better?
SJ: Well, there's a lot of violence in the public square, okay, in many, many things. The newspapers are full of
violence. The TV is full of violence. The games are non-violence—of violence.1 Our kids never learn about
non-violence, they learn only about violence. Toys are not violent, okay?2 Then, the availability of gun is
completely free. You can, now, in Texas, open carry gun around, you can go to school, carry gun. You go to place
of worship, carry gun. I think people will be just—when they are eating, they will have gun next door and on the
table, okay? So, gun, gun, gun. This whole culture of gun, okay? The gun is an instrument of killing, okay? It is
an instrument of killing, okay? And the reason is, people buy a gun because they have not learned any other
system beyond that. They have not learned that you cannot wash blood with blood. You only can wash blood with
water. You follow me? So you—this means unless we learn, unless we do something, education, to our kids and
everybody—peace education, non-violence education. It needs to start from homes, it needs to start from schools,
it needs to start in the community, it needs to start from our leaders, it needs to start from Chris3—pul-pulpits, you
1 Dr. Jain meant to say that games are violent.
2 Dr. Jain meant to say that toys are violent.
3 Dr. Jain meant to say church pulpits.
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know, from religious pulpits, from the priests, okay? Everybody talking ab—enough is enough. We have not
solved any more—any problem. And violence has never solved any problem. If you go to the war, war has never
solved a single problem. One war will lead to the foundation of second and third war, okay, throughout the history,
okay?
So, I think there is a need—Jains are very small minority, very small in this country, also. But we really have to
work with many other organizations that are similarly thinking, that—how do we control this fear, this dialogue,
the hatred, discourses? We need to learn to love–to love and work with each other, have respect with each other,
okay? During COVID time, there was something, because people were so—all these incidents were much less, of
violence, okay? Even the enemies were working together to help each other, okay? So, there were very fewer
wars, probably, during the COVID time. They were collectively working to develop–-whether it’s China or India
or Russia or Europe, they were all working to develop the vaccine. So, what I'm saying is, those enemies that were
fighting in the war, they were working collectively to help each other. So, I think that tendency has to promote
more and more. One more example, if I can give you, is about 10 years ago, I forgot—there was the shooting in
an elementary school, Sandy Hook school—Sandy Hook school in–in Connecticut. And you know, and 19, 20
kids, very young, they were killed, shot. That time, one high school teacher, she was teaching in a high school in
the Boston area. And she was absolutely crying. She was perturbed: “What is going on? Kids—you know,
shooting an elementary school?” Okay, so I don't know where she came to know my name. And she called me,
Laura Hirsch. She said, “Dr. Jain, the whole world is teaching our kids about violence. That's all they learn.
Where and–where and how can we teach them at least something about non-violence?” And I said, “Laura, you
are going to do that.” She said, “How do I do that?” She asked me.
I said, “Collectively, what we do: simple, simple, simple, small steps. You organize a team of high school
teachers, from K1 to K12. And we will take them to India for three weeks and four weeks. And we'll take them to
the live—to where Mahatma Gandhi lived, how he promoted non-violence. We will give them a very good tour of
that Mahatma Gandhi. We will take you to high school–schools in India. We will take you, meet with the teachers
and students over there, because so far, that amount of violence is not there, so far, in India and its schools.” So,
she started with 20, 25 teachers, and they were there for three—that was life changing for many of them, okay? So
far, I think 165 teachers have gone to India, at their own expense, to learn about non-violence, okay? And many of
them say, they came back and they are now offering workshops, class discussions, okay, competition to draw
pictures and write skits.
So, one example, very quickly I give you, I can keep on talking. About seven, eight years ago, I asked—I called
one teacher in Fort Worth, Texas, who had gone to this program in India, and—I don’t remember her name. And I
said, “How was this program useful to you? You spent three weeks, four weeks in India to learn about
non-violence.” She said, “Quite a bit.” She says changed her own thinking. And she gave an example. She said,
one day she was teaching an elementary class in that school in Fort Worth, Texas. And the weather was very nice.
And she opened the school—class-classroom door. And while she was teaching, these probably were kids, maybe
second, or third, or fourth grade, okay? One cockroach—as you know, in Texas, we have cockroach. One
cockroach came into the classroom, walked in, okay? So, as soon as the teacher saw the cockroach, she stood up,
she put a jar over that cockroach. Jar, okay? And she put a piece of paper underneath, okay? This mean, now the
cockroach is between—on top of the piece of paper, in the jar. And she took that outside and let that fellow go
and lead his own life into the bushes again, okay? Simple act. So, the students saw all this happening. And they
said—started raising hands: “Why did you do that, teacher? Why didn't you kill it? This is what we do at home.”
Okay? So now, the teacher gave a very good life—lecture about sanctity of life. These cockroaches also are part
of the total ecosystem. They’re also our support system: visible, invisible. Okay? So, they were here even before
we came, I mean in this–in this world. So, she gave this, and that evening, some of the student went home, they
said, “We are going to become vegetarian from today.” Okay? They came back—how many days, how many
weeks are they stay vegetarian, okay? Because society influence is also very important, how the society teaches
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them, okay? But at least you got some—whereas only guns and guns—they saw the example from the teacher of
sanctity of life. That's what we need to do more, okay?
EM: Yeah, that's really amazing. That's really insightful, and it shows how just one small action on her part, [SJ:
Yes.] it planted that seed of, — [SJ: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.] Yeah, I think also, curiosity in little kids is also very
important, because they question a lot of things, and yeah, that can lead to big mindset–mindset shifts as well.
[SJ: Good.] Yeah, so you mentioned, some faculty went to India for three or four weeks. Was that related to the
International School of Jain Studies? Or was that like a different—
SJ: It was part of the International School for Jain Studies, which I co-founded with my friend in 2004, okay?
And that school has done a tremendous job. And number one, these high school teachers who are going, have
gone. Number two, because of COVID, some of the programs slowed down, but again, it is picking up. Then, they
have made quite a significant number of graduate students who have gone, especially Loyola Marymount
University, LMU, in Los Angeles, to learn Jain yoga, Jain meditation yoga. In fact, either this month or next
month, a whole class of 25 students is going there to learn about Jain yoga. These are all paths to non-violence,
okay? The third is that the International School for Jain Studies that we founded, these 800 people, all from
universities, from 30 universities, and—they have gone to study, to learn about Jainism, how it is being practiced,
okay? They meet Jain nuns and monks, they go to Jain temples, they see how Jainism being lived. They also meet
practitioners, medical doctors, engineers, okay? Politicians, okay? How they practice this non-violence and
Jainism, military people, in their life. So, some of these people, when they came back, they enroll in PhD
programs in various universities—not all of them, naturally—including one at Rice University also, about 15
years ago, okay? Now she is a professor at the University of Indiana, okay? But—so, out of that, probably 25, 30
people, they finished their PhD from Harvard, from University of Chicago, from Yale, and many other, including
one at Rice. So now, we had, about 10 years ago, this crop of very highly qualified scholars available. That's when
we started establishing the Jain chairs. If—you cannot–you cannot establish chair unless you have scholar to fill
them. So, it has been very helpful, in many direction, okay?
EM: And is the number of students, or researchers as well, who pursue Jain studies increasing as time goes on?
SJ: I didn't follow that.
EM: Oh, sorry. Are the number of people who pursue Jain studies, researchers or students, are they increasing as
time goes on?
SJ: They're increasing in a way, because we have these now 30 position that we established. And when somebody
did a PhD in Jainism 10 years ago, there was no job market for them, because there were not these positions
available. Now, this year alone, just three month—we had eight or nine job advertisement, all in academia. This
never happened before, okay? Similarly, in coming September, October, there'll be eight or nine more job
advertisement. So if somebody is coming out of Harvard, or the University of Chicago, or Yale, and looking for a
job, 8, 10 years ago, there were hardly any possibility. So, the answer to your question: once all these positions are
filled, okay, because quite a few are not filled, vacant. Once all these positions are filled, then there will be more
and more number of courses and syllabuses, classes that will be offered, and more number of students will be
taking that. So, we see a very bright future.
EM: That's great to hear, yeah. And so, in Houston, another influential organization that you've been involved
with is the Mahatma Gandhi Library. And although it doesn't exactly focus on Jainism, it brings a lot of awareness
to Gandhi's wisdom and principles of non-violence, which tie into Jainism. So, are you still involved with the
Library at all?
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SJ: Well, not–not as actively as I used to, okay, because I don't live in Houston now, okay? But Mahatma Gandhi
is a product of Jainism. It is Jainism who made him Mahatma Gandhi, okay? Jainism means Jain philosophy of
non-violence, okay? His mother was practically a Jain worshiper, and he was introduced to many, many Jain
monks before he went to England. Even many of his friends were Jains, when he came back and he wanted to
settle down India, there were many, many Jains helped him. So it was Jains all around him, okay? He could not
escape the influence of Jainism. So, Mahatma Gandhi Library in Houston, I was reasonably very active,
and—which, of course, I moved there, I do have communication with them. But I've done something different,
now. Number one, many of these places where we have these classes and courses in Jainism, they offer about
Mahatma Gandhi and non-violence, and the relationship between Jainism and Mahatma Gandhi. That's number
one. Number two, we established a Endowed Chair last year at Cal State—California State University in Fresno.
And that was a combined Jain and Hindu Chair, okay? Which is one—unique and historic, Jain and Hindu
combined, okay? It will—nowhere4 it happens, okay? So, after that happened, then we were able to bring
a-another donor, who very much wanted a chair in Gandhi-Gandhism. So, because of the Jain Chair and—Jain
and Hindu Chair was established very quickly with a donation of $1 million dollar, they established a Gandhian
Thought Chair as well, same place, okay? Very, very active. So what I'm saying is, academically I get fairly
involved, okay? I write about it, and I, you know, inspire people to look at Gandhi and ahimsa and Jainism. So
hopefully, my hope is that in next few years, we will have Gandhi presence and Jainism presence at more
universities.
EM: And do you also plan to write any more books or papers on that topic?
SJ: Pardon?
EM: Do you plan to write any more books or papers on that topic of Jainism?
SJ: Do you do what?
EM: Oh, sorry. Do you plan to write any more books or papers?
SJ: Well, I have–I have one book, which you already know. And as you're talking, I have been writing small,
simple, two, three-page articles, quite a bit, on non-violence and other society issues, okay? Concern about ethics.
I would say, during the 15, 20 years, in addition to writing that book, I probably may have written 150 articles,
okay? Some I shared with some people, but not—they were not published anywhere. Some of them were
published, but very few. They were sitting on my laptop computer. And one day, I started thinking, what do we do
with all these? Once I'm gone, these laptops will be over. And that whatever I wrote, okay, it probably will be just
oblivion, history, and nobody will know, okay? So I talked to a stu5—friend of mine in India, and said, “Here it is.
These 150 article probably will make 3000, 4000 pages of a book. Nobody's going to read that. No—it's not easy
to publish, print, and what do we do with it?” So, this friend of mine, he found two highly qualified, very good in
English, professors in India. And they—I sent them all, and I think after that, they said, “Let's pick up the 30 core
items such as 30 articles out of that first. So they modified—not modify the content. They did–did a bit more
wordsmithing. They did more editing. They organized them properly. And they–they wrote the preface, okay? All
of that. That was compiled only two days ago, okay? And they have titled it Potpourri of Jainism. Potpourri:
P-O-T-P-O-U-R-R-I. Potpourri of Jainism, okay? And so, it's about 300-page publication first, okay? And
they–they have sent it out to some publishers, if they will be interested to publish that. So, my hope is that at least
maybe we'll find somebody, okay, who will–may like to publish that. So, that is another thing. Still, I will have
many other hundred articles on my laptop, okay, sitting there. But it's difficult, you know, who’s going to read my
three hundred fifty—three thousand pages? So, at least some message there. So, yeah, I keep on doing that.
4 Dr. Jain meant to say that this has not happened anywhere else.
5 Dr. Jain meant to say student.
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EM: Yeah, I think that's a great compromise. And, yeah, that's really good news to hear as well. [SJ: Yeah.] A
lasting legacy. What kind of—related to that topic, if your family, like your children, your grandkids, or even
great-grandkids in the future were to watch this interview, what is one message that you would like to share with
them?
SJ: The only message I will—you know, I will not give a big preaching, okay? The first message is just
Mahatma Gandhi said: my life is my message. If I don't live by that, okay, all of this process, these things will not
be very effective. So, they have seen me, okay? How I practice my philosophy of non-violence, okay? So, my—if
I get a chance–if I—my last mess—don't compromise—my–my message to them will be, don't compromise with
non-violence. Don’t walk away from non-violence, okay? No matter how hardship it may be, how much
temptation there may be, how much greed that may come out, but just don't walk away. That is your worldview.
That is your religion. That is your culture. And this how you will be known. Okay, that will be all the message,
okay?
EM: Thank you so much for sharing that. And so that's—that wraps up the interview. That's all the questions that
I had planned. But is there anything you would like to add?
SJ: Well, I just want to thank you. You've been so kind and so perceptive. And you've been asking–asking quite a
lot of questions. I–I never thought that I will be thinking in so many different directions. But you're–you're really
energize me to think [EM: Thank you so much.] –talk more and more, okay? And I also feel very good. So, I
appreciate and thank Rice University, and now where will this—when this will be compiled, or when this will be
kind of collated together? And will I get a chance to look at it?
EM: Yes. So, let me just pause the recording right now.
[Interview ends.]
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