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So today is May 6th, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I’m an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University.

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Today, we’re so honored to be interviewing Stella Zhang for her oral history interview and her artistic creative process. Thank you, Stella, for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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To start, as we are starting from the very beginning, can you tell us when and where were you born? Yes. I was born in 1965 in Beijing, China. Can you share with us

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some of the memories about your—the neighborhood during your childhood? And can you tell us a little bit about your parents as well? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, in Beijing, we moved many times. But in my childhood, I have lots of memory

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about, you know, old neighborhood. So I remember we lived in the special Beijing style, they called the "siheyuan": that means a house around the central courtyard.

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And so a couple family, we shared one, you know, it's like an apartment, but it's different because it’s not an apartment. And Beijing's weather, its summer is very hot, and winter is very cold. So I remember it's summertime, I–I very—it’s—yeah,

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I like to go to the yard to–to do my homework so I can see the neighbor, then go through the yard and talking. Sometime I can smell the cooking. And even

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neighbor, they have a young girl is like my age, every day, they— she play violin. And then nighttime, and parents will sit down in outside too, because the inside of the house is very hot. So they hold the fans, then talk to each

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other. And some people is playing Chinese chess in, you know, under the lights. And wintertime, I always remember, it's Beijing have a special tree. So when winter, the leaf is gone, and the bare tree

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branch, then with crow, flying crow in the sky, and the roof is gray, dark gray: it's beautiful. From my memories, it’s kind of like a

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poem, it's like a big picture. Always in my mind. So even though I left China 30 years ago, every time when I come back, I always thinking about how it should look

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like my–my childhood in the neighborhood. But one time I went back, saw everything is gone. So now it's everything like—the place is replaced by a new building, it’s tall. And I feel sad, you know, it’s a—that's kind of a

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very important memory for me. But yeah, that's the, you know, old—it’s a livings environment . But for my family, like my father, he–he was—he–he was

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passed away five years ago. But he, when he alive, he—whole life, he’s an artist in–in China, is a Chinese brush painter artist. And for—he's my first teacher to teach me

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to do art. Then like Chinese traditional, like Chi-Chinese traditional family, so he always thinking kids do art is the best way, because he is—he was enjoying so much. When–when I was very young, he started to training me, so

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that kind of training is a—it’s sometime, you know, with own kids, it's not easy to teach. Even I'm very good girl, it's very nice to talk to her, but sometime I, you know, it’s the own father, you teach kids, you always try to argue a little bit.

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But I remember beginning time, I was very shy so I don't want to go out to make sketch. So people look at me, how to draw, and judge me.

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Then he just thought, "Okay, I–I take you, go together.” So we have a—close by, there have a park. So couple times, beginning time, he with me together, holding the–the sketchbook to drawing about—it’s

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called people, it’s alive people, it’s, you know, sometimes they do something, or in a building, and the tree landscape. Then little by little, I get used to. But most time, he just let me sit down next to him,

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and watching him how to do. So that kind of influenced me a lot. It's not only about art, and also about how he value about many things.

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And watching his habit, even: how he used the water and keep the water always clean. I was wondering, "How can you make this brush paint in the water always clean?" He told me, "You just know how to control, how to control the

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ink, how to control the water, then you don't mess up." But his life habit is very organized, even that time, we— even, you know, he's a famous artist, they don't have big studio. So they–they drawing in a—pent in the home.

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I watched his–his room always very organized. It's not like fancy, but he knows everything where he put in. He taught me, "In the future if you do art, you're not going to make mess. You–you know what you do.

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You keep your mind clean." So that influenced my habit. Even now, I tried to make my studio always organized, too. Even I—working time I can make the mess, but right away I can—have to clean up; otherwise I feel

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something wrong. So that's very, you know, that by many different way to teach you, which without you talk too much, you just watch. And my mom is very—she's a very strong woman.

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She's smart and very able. But I saw her as kind of gave up her career. She is—until she retired, she is literature teacher in different college, but she kind of gave up her career for

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support everyone in the family. I have an older brother, is three years older than me, and my younger sister is seven years older—younger than me.

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So my brother, he's very smart, he, when he was young he does artist, you know, is better than everyone in my family, the kids. But he is very against my father teaching way.

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He doesn't want to do art anymore. Then he went to, at the end he went to Beijing University for Physics . So I raise my sister, it's just like same–same way we training to do art.

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But my mom is support everyone, and—but, you know, it's—in China, I grew up in the generation, we don't have everything you need. So be a mom, she had to be working hard, and I

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saw her keep busy forever. She tried to do this for this one, that one, then the end she's exhausted, she had no time to do anything for herself. But kind of like a role model for me to watch be a

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woman in that kind of culture. So how you have to do something really, you know, it’s like if you want to support everyone and do something good for yourself, you have to be—have a strong heart, and smart way

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to support everyone. So that I learned from my parents. That's really inspiring! And would you say that your father is the reason that you're

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an artist today? I think that's a big reason. That's first reason why come to know art, but soon he found by himself to teach me maybe it's not best way.

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So in Beijing they have Shao Nian Gong it’s called—is in a–in a special place, like a group of children, like a similar age, you'll learn art together. But for my–my goal,

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even very young, I know my goal, I want to go to Central Academy of—CAFA. That's where my–my dad teach. That's the best school in—art school in China. But when you want to go to China, then you have to—when you go

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to CAFA, you have to be training very strict way, because in the competition, it’s really–it’s really big. So—but we decide, I told my father before go there, maybe I can go to

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high school, special art high school, is attached the— with CAFA. So that even get more difficult to get in. And if you want to go there, you have to be pass the three days' screening test.

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So for that, we pre—I prepare with other children together, so we can like a group, we go to many different places, make sketch, even go to Beijing train station. So they have many people come to different

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state, different—or different city, they looks like a different kind of people, you know, so we daytime and nighttime around there to try to sketch. So—and sometimes cause trouble for, you know, there’s policemen, they thought

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it’s too many people around, too many people look. So they–they–they try to away us to go, but we still keep going, to try to practice our skill. Then the end, I got in the high school.

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So the year we—the whole country, we have 13 kids get the school: 10 boys and 3 girls. So the school is very small, but very close to Cen—Central

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Academy, we call this CAFA. If you walk, maybe like 30 minutes, you can go to CAFA. So like–like, connect together. And the–the high school is–is–is small,

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but kids come to different city. So even I live in Beijing, my family's Beijing, I have to live in a dorm too. So one week I might go back home one time, then can meet my parents a little bit and talk a little bit.

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Of course, they gave me a little bit money, I go back to school. So that's the way we growing. But in the school, is—we learned a lot for four years. They have a lot strict rule,

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kind of like in the army. In the morning and the night, every single maybe hours, they made your schedule. So that’s good for us and learned so much.

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But also, you know, it’s for younger, you want a little bit more freedom, so like, they're like a huge family, because the kids, the students, couple years together, is only–only like 30, 40 students.

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So the–the teacher even maybe more than student. So we know each other and we, you know, have to do something, it’s like big family. But I have a very good memory about the school.

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They have a very interesting library. So in that time in China, we don’t have a lot of opportunity to look about the Western culture, art, or novel in a

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typical place. But our library you can borrow, and many different, you know, it's like need a book and the art book of course. So they opened my mind a lot in that time.

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But of course we don't have–we don't have a lot of opportunity to see real work , because it's not—that time is not allowed yet. So after four years this high school, and I applied

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in Central Academy. So that’s kind of like is very smooth get in, because you're from that high school, then you very easy passing the test. So that time, I really try to talk with my

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father: “I think I might can learn something different, like fashion design, or something it’s a little bit different.” But my father thought, you know, "You will thinking about Chinese brush paintings is best.

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In the future you'll enjoy it." So whatever I just, you know, believe it. So I just go to Chinese brush painting department and learn other four years of—in CAFA. But in CAFA, we have a very good memory for many things, because that's

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'85 to '89. So in the 80’s for China, I think is most open time. So the door is opened, start opened. It's music, art, everything just

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can like come into China, little by little, as we just feel is so exciting, and try to say more and express more. I remember Russian book, the exhibition in–in the biggest museum in–in Beijing is, in China actually, it’s very

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close to our school too. That blew me away. That work is really, is I have never seen by my eyes. He used cardboard,

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make his contemporary art, and in the whole museum I just found it's, “Okay, so art have to do something different.” It's so exciting for me. For many reasons, you know, is I graduated in 1980’s and

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I don't want to be limit myself. There are many reasons. So I just decided maybe I should go out to look something different, learn something new. And my–my family have

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some relative in Tokyo in, you know, my mom talked, "Okay, so how about I try to talk to your–your uncle that you can go to Tokyo, maybe learn something different." So we got many paperwork and the steps.

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Of course that time is not that easy go out. And I went to Tokyo. But when I go to Tokyo, the first thing I feel: a big cultural shock.

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But also for language, I have no idea. I didn't prepare anything about language. I don't speak Japanese. So I have to go to Japanese school to learn maybe like couple

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years, like you know, transition my language and get used to about the life-lifestyle. And I feel many way I learned in-in Tokyo, so

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they are not like I can imagine before I come here. So I found people is so calm, it’s—they–they really—they have a very good self-control for many manner and behavior, and even they treat

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the traditional culture things, is very–it's very interesting. So they have a traditional thing and a modern thing in the same time. And even you can see in the building: so one side is very modern

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building, the other side is traditional Jinja. But they don't feel lost balance, and the people in Christmas, they celebrate Christmas, then soon, the New Year, they go to Jinja,

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it’s—they–they kind of like a Buddha–Buddhist. So then they go to celebrate all the Shinto. So it's–it's everything kind of like is mix together. So that’s part of Japan:

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they take every part they need, but they–they absorbed by themselves. But I remember first time when I go to Japanese, you know, it's an art store, I get surprised. So they have a pigment,

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and basically they come from China. The pen—China is—when you do Chinese brush painting, you use pigment too, but they only have 10 different colors, but in Japan they have thousands of colors.

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So they—this—everything is—I just, for me, for, you know, it's—I have to—I think it's for me, it's like a–like a sponge. I tried to learn more

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and know something different. Back to China, I learned a lot about brush painting. Of–of course the brush painting, they have so much good thing.

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And also even now, I think it's now people still can't come over that. It's really good, because they training you skill, then like you—how to use brush, how to use ink and the rice paper, so you learn how to—your change

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in the moment, and say they bring in–in something, change so quick, but also, most important thing is, I think we learned a lot sketch outside.

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But the end, like my dad told me, "You sketch it, you learn it. But the end, they come to your own–own . When you do art, that's very

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subjective. It's not like you just do something like what you say. So that part is always, for me, it's—even now, I think it's make a lot of sense. And it's not like people think about you learn Chinese brush painting, it’s about the,

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you know, technique and skill. But I come back to Japan, it’s same thing. So the–the material is really heavy and strong texture, it’s very interesting.

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But the end, I found that it’s not only about that, it's about you—how to—you appreciate about beauty. So in Japan, I think I went to two different kinds of school. First, I went to Tama Art

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School. So that's the best private art school. So I–I choose Japanese painting of course, because I think it's very different. And that–that two years, I learned many things about the different department.

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Like Mono-Ha is one, is most influenced my art. I learned, you know, they—how to—they put oriental philosophy in your art. They start in the 70’s, it's probably the

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same time in the European, is limit—minimal art, but they use the concept is totally different. So they appreciate about object with space, with time,

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and very minimal, but same time, so they have internal logic. It's very—it’s oriental philosophy. And also, you know, it's a—they call this "Wabi-Sabi,” it’s part of the

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Japanese culture. So they—it’s value the quietness and the simple, simplified shape, and they—the things is not like, you can see the

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things is not like very bright. They kind of like take time: have a history, have a story behind everything, even the things is un-perfect. So that everything, the culture things involved in–in life,

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every-everything, even the food, and the dish, and the decoration. So you don't need to see something, but you can feel it. It's very different.

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And but I–I stayed in Japan. After Tama Art School, I just tried to go to my master course. So I applied Tama Art School and Tokyo Art University.

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But I got both got in, I had to choose one. But Tokyo Art University is a public art school, it’s the best one, and of course cheaper. So I choose to go to, you know, Tokyo Art University.

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So the professor, I think is—I'm really thanks for my professor. He's famous, but it’s Carlos Demille , but he–he was died a couple years ago too, but he's really open mind. He told me, "You don't need follow me, you don't need to

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follow my style. So you even don't need to have to everyday come to the classroom, and I give you space to discover by yourself what you need, what you more interest in. But you just need to finish some artwork, let me see." So I

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feel so exciting, I almost—I tried as much as I can. I went to museum and gallery, and look so many different things. You can imagine, it’s from that time, I come to outside, that time is China is not like it is now.

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Now you can see so many, you know, many countries’ artists' work in Beijing or Shanghai, but that time is very little. When I go to Tokyo, that's kind of a big international city.

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So they have so much information there. Now I start to learn, kind of learn by myself, but also continue learn Japanese paintings, the technique.

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They have a very certain, very interesting—they care about the quality, they care about the process, but I think it’s everything I learned, but come to my thing, but I don't want to follow them.

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For a long time I just thinking, "Do something different," it's make me exciting. So that's in Japan. But–but in the same time, when I'm the student I have to be—take part of—part-time work.

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Like you're supporting yourself tuition. So I don't want to, you know, rely parents send money from Beijing, from Tokyo. I go to a couple different places.

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First, because that time my language is not that good, I went to the bookstore to—the bookstore is very interesting. They kind of like—is they can—they have a lot Chinese

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book. So you try to, a little bit, translate and organize stuff in there, and talk with them about—same time, I can look a lot of old book. It's very, very interesting to–to me too.

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Then I went to coffee store, like waitressed for like one year. So like young people, you know, you have to work in something. But it let me learn a lot too, is about how Japanese,

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they treat about every single work. You're so serious to do, doesn't matter what. So yeah, that is a personal experience for me.

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Even it’s kind of like a living skill to learn, to know about the—how they put in the attitude to-towards to work; they never to really to forget every detail—single, you know, the

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detail thing. So that's–that's, if I don't work there, I could not imagine. Then after that I started teaching Chinese brush painting in Japan. Because so many people want to learn about

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Chinese brush painting, even they have a brush painting too. But kind of like a different style. So some even is adults, so they have group of people, let me teach. And I made a lot of friends, Japanese friends, they so can—they–

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they know is I'm Chinese, so in the same time, they use their subtle way teach my English—oh no, Japanese too. So make—I got a lot of benefit too. But after I graduate, almost like graduate from, you know, it’s

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Tokyo Art University, I married. Then after married couple years, I had the child. But as I start thinking about, because in Japan culture, in Japanese culture, when the woman, you get

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married, it doesn't matter how you think about your career, you—most people, they quit their job; they stay home like housewife, raising kids, cook. But that's not really

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I want to do. But in that kind of environment, you probably you get used to, because everybody does same thing. So you don't feel anything big wrong. But even in my mind, I don't want to keep life

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like–like housewife, you forget your—what you really your passion is. But I did many years to stay home and raising kids. And until my daughter

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grow up until five or six years old, my ex-husband, he was living—before he lived in America, his residency in America, but he worked in Tokyo; that's why we met. He still—he was still working in–in a company in Japan.

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So—but sometimes we have to come back to US, because the green card. So you have to go back for like every year about two times.

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But until my daughter will go to school, we haven't made a decision. And we could not go back for forever, you know, when she go into school, it's not convenient. Then we went to California.

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So first time we went, we come to, you know, it's California, maybe it's San Francisco and LA. And I saw people in the beach, that kind of lifestyle is really relaxed.

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It's very different with in Japan. In Japan, you-you're working hard, and time is everything. So people is a–is a self control is very well; then they even

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they talk is very quiet. But they very fancy speak . And the woman and the man, they use different language, but be a woman, when you go out, you have to dress up, make up, very nice smile, it’s just like,

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you know, like a social person, you had to be very—kind of like put a mask on your face. So when I come to California, I saw my daughter. She's so happy in

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the beach. She talking louder. And—when she–when she was in–in Tokyo. I asked her, "Do you like here or like in Tokyo?" She told, "I like here."

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But for myself, I think it's be artist, you need more freedom and a space be yourself, and be true to you, like you can find your own voice. So I just decided to take my daughter come to California.

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Because my ex-husband, he– he had to work in Tokyo. So I just bring my daughter with me, my decision is bring my daughter come to—first year come to LA, then we live in LA, they're even—they

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have to driving everywhere. Because LA is so big. It's not like San Francisco, you have car, train, you have a bus. And the lifestyle is very different with Tokyo.

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Tokyo you have subway, you can go everywhere. So I have to deal with my language, again. Because I come to US, I have to speak English.

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So we learned English a little bit in China and Japan, but we don't really talk about—it’s the little bit grammar, you know, it's not really helped that much. So I have to learn English because my daughter had to go

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to school, you had to conversation with teacher. So it's a pretty hard time for me, because that time I'm not young. So when you're young, you learn language is much easier. And it's pushed me to learn and growing.

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That's fascinating to hear your journey. It's like you kind of have lived so many lives in different spaces. And I'm also wondering, all these diasporic experiences, how

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has they influenced your art? So since your father was a painter and the traditional "guohua," or classical Chinese painting, that practice, it's kind of common for the literati

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culture to be in–in–in the practice as well, to kind of follow the old masters. And then for you to kind of break out of that tradition, having gone to Japan and then

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going to find that, it's also limiting in terms of your—like your feminine identity; and then you kind of moved on to a more, kind of, like liberal space, like how does this, like

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transition from one place to another influence your artistic creativity? Yes, I think when you learn something, you will always keep it; you're not going to forget. So like Chinese brush painting, and I learned many things about

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how you control the whole balance, and how to, you know, use the water and the ink, even how the flooring make you change. And sometimes it's, you know, it’s like—not—it’s not you can design.

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So they have a lot accident happen, how you use it, make the change and work for you. And the water flowing, ink flowing, so in one moment, they changes so fast: how can you control it? And even the white

00:31:00.010 - 00:31:15.690

space for Chinese, you know, like brush painting, they have a very, very important for the space. So the space energy, space—the space filled, so it's nothing empty, they have something.

00:31:15.770 - 00:31:29.860

The balance, and how you try to use that kind of things, work for your whole piece. This is how you find your own subjective angle to express your things.

00:31:29.960 - 00:31:47.800

It's not like—it's Chinese brush painting, it’s not like you had to do sketch, like do something you'll look at, like realistic; it's more like abstract for me. But also you'll go through many training, like you make

00:31:47.960 - 00:32:01.580

lines more strong, and even, you know, like how to make a flower, how to make landscape, and how—even calligraphy, everything. So they combine together, make you build up your—like

00:32:03.610 - 00:32:21.220

how do you even, how—appreciate about the elegant. So that's you learned, is many different levels. It's not like a surface, it’s like two, like rice paper, even rice paper, they have so many different kinds of rice paper, you have

00:32:21.220 - 00:32:36.400

to get used to. And when I went to Japan, so the Japanese painting is very interesting. They have a strong texture, and a lots color choices. And they ma-make paintings, and the process is

00:32:36.400 - 00:32:49.530

very—it's layers, layers, layers. It's opposite with Chinese painting, the ink painting, actually, so they heavier. But the end, I just found many things I learned, they come to

00:32:49.530 - 00:33:09.740

like mine, too. So the important things is what I try to talk, what I try to express, maybe we can't—because my age when I come to US, and life experiences is building more and more, I just thinking, every time I learned

00:33:11.090 - 00:33:24.090

technique, they should be working something for myself, for unique language. But I try to found what I want to say. So they take—actually, it's not easy, they take a long time.

00:33:24.900 - 00:33:39.680

And finally, I found in, maybe around 10 or 15 years ago, I found it’s–it’s nothing else; it’s yourself; it’s everything about what you care, what you try to say, what you try to express

00:33:41.670 - 00:33:55.460

about your own perspective. So for me, it's kind of like my identity, because I go through Japan, and the US, so I always like new people in a new environmental.

00:33:56.880 - 00:34:11.450

And identity and gender, especially in Japan, I strongly feel that gender is so different. It's not equal, but people get used to. That's from my mind, I always have a question

00:34:11.940 - 00:34:23.080

about that. But when I come to America, it doesn't mean America is gender equal. Of course they have—still, have a lot of issues for here. But I feel a little bit, you know,

00:34:23.160 - 00:34:32.940

freedom to talk about. I don't feel shy to talk about I feel, the truly in my mind thinking about the things. So I start

00:34:33.000 - 00:34:47.650

focus on myself. When I think about myself, that the end I found is, your body is most reliable sensor. So they have—the body, everybody's body, they have a

00:34:47.650 - 00:35:04.080

unspoken wisdom, who they can get many information from outside, and the inside too. When you have things you have, you know, think about the emotional, and the even your, you

00:35:04.080 - 00:35:20.440

know, how do you dialogue with outside, your body always try to find a balance. So I start focused about the body. That is really take time. And the process is little by little.

00:35:20.920 - 00:35:36.230

So it’s—you could not rush, you could not to push yourself to go something you really don't feel. Maybe, I think it’s—even now at work, the work, pieces work, even put in 10 years ago, probably different; 20

00:35:36.230 - 00:35:48.000

years ago, of course. So people change— by experience, by your understanding, by your life, by your age; then you say things and thinking everything is

00:35:48.150 - 00:36:10.480

differently. So they always come to your art. So, yeah, that's so fascinating that you kind of went along the–the practices of your father, as well. Like, can you talk a little bit about—more about your relationship with

00:36:10.480 - 00:36:21.520

your father? Yeah, my father, his personality is very down to earth. He's a very quiet person, and very humble. But he working hard.

00:36:21.810 - 00:36:35.750

He really—in my–my memory, he's just keep working and working. But he doesn't talk a lot. And I am very inspired from my

00:36:35.840 - 00:36:50.300

father. But he does things deep in the layer. So even Chinese brush painting, I saw he is work always: one day, the other day, the other day. Even after one year, he still can see some work, add more.

00:36:50.660 - 00:37:10.630

So by layer, his work feel rich, rich depth, and he never give up. He—if he wants to do something, he's very quiet person, but if he wants to something, he never give up. So I think it's my personality in many ways, is pretty much like my father.

00:37:11.200 - 00:37:25.640

So I just, you know, I don't–I don't really social, I don't really talk to people that much. But I'm very enjoy what I want to do. So I missed my father, have a

00:37:25.640 - 00:37:40.330

very good relationship, but until, you know, it’s teenage, we sometimes have a bit of fighting about personal things. But of course, it's like every kid does. And my mom is always, yeah, I think it’s—my role model is about

00:37:40.440 - 00:37:54.370

be strong woman. Yeah, it's fascinating that your work delves into the discourse about the feminine identity and the body as well,

00:37:54.690 - 00:38:12.550

which is something that the traditional classical ink paintings doesn't dealt with, as it's like really flat, and body is like rarely present in the classical Chinese paintings, especially in kind of three dimensional forms.

00:38:14.230 - 00:38:28.000

So do you, like how–how do you kind of started that kind of idea, in terms of dealing with the body like, probably who—is–is there an artist that kind of influenced you?

00:38:28.000 - 00:38:46.820

Was it more like in Japan, or from like a European tradition? So first when I started to do the body, actually that’s just feel—because I feel I need, and also I need more dimension, because I feel the language is not enough for me to

00:38:46.850 - 00:38:59.240

express myself. That from the canvas, come out like a relief a little bit, then a little—little by little, I get more depth; then later, get like installation. But for influenced

00:38:59.290 - 00:39:13.920

by, inspired by artists, of course I have a lots artists, but the end, I found a lot is women artist. In my mind, it's first one come out is Louise Bourgeois, is a French, is a woman artist.

00:39:14.870 - 00:39:29.470

He—her work is just, I feel it's energy and the power inside is just so strong. She–she have a—she's very practical about art until she—

00:39:29.470 - 00:39:47.980

before she die, maybe die in ‘96; and her work—I think is she talked about her-herself, personal story a lot, and– and her childhood, her family, her father, her mother,

00:39:48.580 - 00:40:02.040

and made she think about the human relationship, so how important. And even her spider is more like, it's, you know, it's expressed like her–her mother protecting the kids.

00:40:02.580 - 00:40:22.620

And she has so many forms. And every time I see her work, I can always can discover something new. It's—I love her work, and of course so in a certain theme, kind of like we can cross, I can feel they touch me, because

00:40:22.690 - 00:40:39.550

it's be a woman and lots of body things in our artwork too. But it's very amazing thing is my daughter, when she's 12 years old, I think, that time, I don't think it’s she's really understand about art, and I didn't really talk to her that much.

00:40:39.550 - 00:40:54.450

Just one time because I have a big exhibition in San Francisco, so they made a video about the whole process I work, it's continual–continual, like two months. Then one time they come to house, is talk with my daughter, without me there.

00:40:54.640 - 00:41:06.600

They asked my–my daughter. My daughter talked, "I know my mom like something." And then so they talked about—what she talked, it very make sense. Then next day is my birthday.

00:41:07.520 - 00:41:20.530

So she's talked, "Mom, I get you one book." So I said, "What?" She went to—one time I take–take her go to book, she didn't tell me she had a bit of money, she bought Louise Bourgeois' book. I was surprised.

00:41:21.050 - 00:41:37.210

I said, "Why you know I like her work?" She talked, "I don't know." It's very interesting. That's so sweet of her, wow. It–it surprised me about—I think it's kids, they have a sense, even they have

00:41:37.210 - 00:41:57.760

sense about, in a way, know, even we don't really realize they watching something, and you talk to her, but she watching. And I'm also curious, have you been like kind of more

00:41:57.760 - 00:42:17.420

inspired by like Western artists as well, at any point? Or have you studied any kind of European kind of art history that came into be inspiring for your work? I think it’s—European art, I have a lot like minimal art, they have a lot of

00:42:17.460 - 00:42:30.820

artists. So because the abstract work, they very speak to me. So very minimal. And also they can like take off everything they don't

00:42:30.820 - 00:42:43.970

need. They make— they express very directly and clear. So that's just like in Japan, the Mono-ha is influenced me in many different

00:42:43.970 - 00:42:58.450

ways. I have a lot of artists I like, but—like, Eva Hesse is–is woman artist too. But she was died, is very early, by 38. Only 38, she died.

00:42:58.520 - 00:43:19.430

But her art is really—is so–so unique. And she made in the form, it’s even now, I think it's many artists cannot, you know, cannot reach that high, like her did. Yeah, that's

00:43:19.430 - 00:43:39.030

fascinating. And I'm also curious, since your parents were born probably in the 30’s or 40’s. Yeah, encountered the Cultural Revolution back in China, as they were both kind of intellectuals.

00:43:39.340 - 00:43:54.150

Were they— were there kind of—did they mention anything during their memories—during the—of their memories during the Cultural Revolution? Yes. I remember my dad went to farmer.

00:43:54.800 - 00:44:09.650

So because it's not only–only her, is a lot musi-musician and artist and writer. So they put some special reason, you know, because his work–his work is a landscape.

00:44:09.870 - 00:44:25.160

He used paint, ink, then most have no color. So they question: “Why you don't have color for the beautiful landscape in China? You every-everything is black, white.” So that's the reason, so they put in a farmer

00:44:25.320 - 00:44:41.500

to working for 10 years. But there, have lots artists together there. So later I asked him about how he feel about that time. He told me, he doesn't feel lonely, because around him and the same

00:44:41.500 - 00:44:57.000

artists, even his coworker and the same profess before, at the same time, they come to same place. They try to make a lot of fun there, and they try to change lifestyle, but in 10 years,

00:44:57.000 - 00:45:13.480

they could not touch brush, they could not paint. So I remember for—I was very young, and when I was—my father every year have one time or two time come back home to see us. Always, I with my mom, with my brother—that

00:45:13.560 - 00:45:32.080

time I had no sister—so went to see him. So one time I see my–my father, when I was so young, I call his "uncle", because I don't realize, I don't remember him, too young. So I don't know my father how he feel, but yeah.

00:45:32.160 - 00:45:50.880

That's— I think that kind of story is really sad, but–but, you know, it's for many families. I trust you grew very close to him after he came back, right? After, yes.

00:45:51.100 - 00:46:08.540

Then after he come back, I grew up a little bit, understand. And, you know, it’s still somehow, you know, it's—I feel very quiet, because I don't want to—in a classroom, you don't want to let kids know your father

00:46:08.540 - 00:46:24.840

went to farm because he does some painting wrong, or you know, I just very quiet. For most time, I stay home. And my father have a lot of art book in the home, and we can, you know, look in the book and copy it.

00:46:25.750 - 00:46:44.900

It's part of his training too. That's fascinating. And how about your mother? Was she—you mentioned that she also taught in schools, right? Yeah. She taught in school, but she basically—she

00:46:47.390 - 00:46:59.460

just for, you know, it's for family, for everything. And she's smart to raising kids. So sometime when kids doesn't want to do something, she have a different way to talk

00:46:59.460 - 00:47:12.420

to you, and make a big picture, let you look at it, then you can see, "Oh, that's good for you." Then you continue to do. It's like an educator, you know, it’s–it’s—this way is better than father. 'Cause my father is always, "Oh, you should do

00:47:12.610 - 00:47:28.880

this." So, he doesn't really know how to let kids understand, but my mom, yes. So always—but she always tried to more work behind us, then make our get easier to go through many, like a test or something, you know,

00:47:28.880 - 00:47:40.830

it’s—you have to learn more. She always told me: “Read something and do something.” She hard to see I have nothing to do, sit down there, and she will be feel, "What did you produce anything?"

00:47:41.720 - 00:47:57.070

So they have a big dream for kids, and like typical Chinese families. I don't feel a lot of pressure because I get used to. I think from my–my mind, I just want to do better.

00:47:57.790 - 00:48:17.230

But once, well, I get very angry, because I don't have playtime at all. So like if you go to school, like class, because one class and other classes have 2—10 minutes, playtime, rest. I have to hold my sketchbook to drawing my classmate

00:48:17.370 - 00:48:35.350

who is play, because my father every day, he had to check my, you know, sketch, like ten piece or five piece, whatever, you have to do good. I had to save that play time to do that, because I have a homework to do too, so add a lot extra

00:48:35.350 - 00:48:49.560

work to me. So once I was really angry. But–but once my mom told me, you know, it’s when you want to go to that kind of school, you have to treating like this way. So I accepted.

00:48:49.560 - 00:49:03.750

Yeah. That's great. And also, you're talking about "si he yuan" and then —and probably more known in the West as "Hutong." Yeah.

00:49:03.780 - 00:49:20.060

And would you mind as it's—just for–for the benefit of the nostalgia of the many audiences, would it be possible if you could kind of take us on the journey of your—for–for example, a trip in Hutong?

00:49:21.450 - 00:49:35.490

Yes, I remember in Hutong, have many people live in–in a "si he yuan". So in the Hutong, so they have one bathroom, and the bathroom for–for many family.

00:49:36.680 - 00:49:50.600

In the morning, you have to line there to go to bathroom, because in the house, you can use, you know, it's a very simple place, but it's not like a bathroom. So that's it for now.

00:49:50.600 - 00:50:08.510

I talked with my daughter about that, she think it’s incredible. She could not remember, she could not think about, “How do you live with that kind of style?” Yeah, that's—yeah, that's in a Hutong. So we—but also the neighbor is very close.

00:50:08.510 - 00:50:22.320

So we talk to each other, and every family know every family, it’s kids know kids. So when we go to school, we have to maybe—because we don't have car, even, you know, parents have

00:50:22.320 - 00:50:33.980

no time to with you. So you have to find some close neighbor with you go to same school, you go together. But for me, it's a very fun time, and spend time with kids

00:50:35.370 - 00:50:52.230

in a Hutong. And for now, I think it's very humane. It's really people with—people nice, but of course they sometimes have argue too. But different with now, you don’t know your neighbors, who living here, they never talk to each other.

00:50:53.510 - 00:51:11.010

It's different lifestyle. Yeah, and also I remember we have a street lights nighttime. Then so many people is play around there, you know, it’s like kids, they enjoy it.

00:51:11.550 - 00:51:30.630

So even that time we don't have enough stuff we—like parents need, or kids need. But we feel happy. It’s very funny. Yeah, I guess that's just the gentrification of and the

00:51:30.720 - 00:51:45.980

progression of the city that leaves many of our memories in the past. And can you also share with us some of the childhood games that you played in the past? We play ping pong a lot because that's easier for us.

00:51:46.030 - 00:52:01.360

We don't have a really—have a ping pong table. We sometimes make a simple like ping pong, draw some line on the ground, then you can play. And for girl, we play a lot—I don't know how to say that—it's like bouncing

00:52:03.480 - 00:52:18.420

straight, then you jump up, down. It's a lot, but for me I think most time, when I have a clear memory, I have to hold sketchbook. And also we do cut paper.

00:52:19.390 - 00:52:30.530

So the cut paper for us, it's very fun. It's simple. You just have one piece of paper, then you trim in something, then you cut. Then you put it in the—between your book, then keep it.

00:52:30.530 - 00:52:47.300

Sometime we exchange each other. So that's our fun and treasure. And at that time we don't have a lot clothes, like now your fashionable clothes.

00:52:47.670 - 00:52:58.420

So everyone wore similar. And, you know, like a girl, you have a little bit of color; but you don't want to too different with other people. Even they don't

00:52:58.470 - 00:53:19.230

sell a lot of very colorful stuff, but we've found the simple way: use the top part make a little bit fixing, just a little bit color to show it—it's a very subtle way to show the beauty. And my big memory for collection: candy paper.

00:53:20.060 - 00:53:32.270

You know the candy, they have a paper wrap, wrap it. The paper sometime have a design, have a little color for us, it’s–it's beautiful. I, yeah, collect a lot of paper, put in my book,

00:53:33.720 - 00:53:49.710

then I don't—yeah, because I moved so many times, so many things now I think I should keep it, but I don't have any more. Yeah, that's wonderful. And it's very—probably very hard for...

00:53:52.330 - 00:54:06.750

Imagine, yeah, that's true. And–and your name in Chinese is Zhang Shuang. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit of the—kind of the meaning or the metaphor behind your name and...?

00:54:06.790 - 00:54:22.700

I asked my mom one time, I said, “Why you choose ‘Shuang’?” So she told me, because I born, the year is 1965. And 1965, everyone is just—Culture Revolution start.

00:54:23.440 - 00:54:41.140

And somehow she tried to found from poem, but she doesn’t want to too much something, like “red” or “flower,” or—you know, she want it different. And "Shuang" for that time is not a lot peo—not people use, but she doesn't

00:54:41.140 - 00:54:54.640

know it’s for girl or boy, but she just thinking that's cool. And just make the name for me. But now I found a lot of people use “Shuang.” Yeah, she just want to, I'm a little bit different for that time.

00:54:54.670 - 00:55:10.620

Because my name is only one words, except my last name, so it's very easy to make a sim-similar name with other, maybe in the classroom they have two name the same, so that would be trouble.

00:55:10.620 - 00:55:28.560

So my mom say, "Okay, why don’t we try to find something different?" But that's she tried. Thank you. And next, I'm also curious: since you were born in 1965, and that's like a year before the Cultural

00:55:29.130 - 00:55:46.620

Revolution, did you remember like—I guess you were very young back then, and it ended when you were 11 years old—like, can you tell us a little bit of how it impacted your, kind of, your school, your earlier life experiences?

00:55:47.550 - 00:56:05.340

Yeah, I remember it while I in the elementary school, so we—it was really kind of chaos. Teachers cannot teach, and students is go outside to, you know, do something: board art, to talk something, write something.

00:56:05.490 - 00:56:24.140

They kind of like a teacher, like, “You do that,” or they feel is more revolution. And we don't—because so young, we don't feel anything is really big wrong, but feel, "Oh, we don't really go to class." But it's very short time, so for my

00:56:24.240 - 00:56:42.620

age, but we don't be involved too much. And in teenage—oh, yeah, is one thing: in 1976, I think, is a big earthquake in Tangshan. It’s—but that earthquake is really big.

00:56:43.040 - 00:56:59.830

Even in Beijing have a—everybody can feel the earthquake. Then we have to leave house in Beijing, we go to the park, which is I make sketches a lot there. So a lot family go

00:56:59.830 - 00:57:11.720

there, then make a tent. So we live in there whole month; of course, we don't go to school. And the parents try to make kids feel a little bit comfortable living there.

00:57:12.280 - 00:57:27.200

Then even sometimes they need to go back home to take something back, they just rush to go back home, then come back. That kind of—yeah, that is my teenage, many things happened. What we

00:57:27.360 - 00:57:40.590

learned about the Cultural Revolution is: you cannot talk too much in outside. If you talk too much, then you will getting in trouble, family get in trouble. So sometime, you know, my parents talk something, they probably don't let kids to listen.

00:57:44.360 - 00:58:03.580

Yeah, that's a very bizarre experience, I'm sure. And also, so when you were 25, you also experienced another very traumatic historical event, the June 4 Tiananmen Square Massacre.

00:58:04.390 - 00:58:21.470

Can you share with us some of those memories? Yeah, that year is my graduate year in CAFA. So that year, almost everybody, every kid, is go to Tiananmen Square. Because our school is very close; if you walk

00:58:21.530 - 00:58:34.900

from school to Tiananmen, only like 25 minutes. So we went there because we know something happened, and we wish something change. So the young people, they have so

00:58:34.900 - 00:58:48.440

much passion for be involved in a big movement, and everything happened is just like you cannot expect. So that’s big, sud-suddenly changed in the night.

00:58:49.230 - 00:59:05.350

But it's our school, cross–cross the street is Xiehe Yiyuan , so the biggest hospital. There—that I can—that night I was in dorm; but I tried to sleep, but I start to heard of the

00:59:05.630 - 00:59:21.990

gun. Every noise is—everybody started to yell; so we just feel panicked. I don't know what exactly happened. Then we come to the outside, then I heard many, you know, like, embassy cars, or something, people yelled, “Quiet ,

00:59:21.990 - 00:59:38.720

come to the hospital.” So we try to go to hospital from dorm to see what we can do to help. But first time I see blood that much, I got so scared, and–and I just start crying. That year for our

00:59:39.970 - 00:59:53.730

grade, we don't have exhibition. So for CAFA, every–every year, the end of the year, when you graduate, you have big exhi-exhibition for your grader— graduate, but we don't.

00:59:53.860 - 01:00:07.500

We just—then after that, school just told everybody go home. So we just go home. Then that's the big reason I go to Japan too, because I don't know what I can do in the China.

01:00:07.550 - 01:00:17.360

Everything changed in one—suddenly it’s everything, you know, like, you don't—uncertainty, you don't know what's going on. So I just

01:00:17.360 - 01:00:35.880

think maybe I go outside different country to look at and learn something different. Were your parents supportive of your decision? Yeah. Yeah, my parents is support me too. She thought, my mom, especially my mom thought, "You should

01:00:35.880 - 01:00:53.390

go out to learn something new, and open your eyes, it looks something different." And my father, of course, he always thinking I'm continue do Chinese brush painting. But for me, I have already can see, if I continue in China,

01:00:55.080 - 01:01:12.440

once you graduate from CAFA, you almost can see your later life: either you're teaching the school, or you do artwork, like repeat, like, my father's generation doing. It's not really I want.

01:01:13.310 - 01:01:27.420

There's many reasons put together, I just think, "Okay, I just go out." Yeah, that's fascinating. And also, you mentioned that you kind of—as you moved to

01:01:27.590 - 01:01:45.260

Japan, and then to the US, you kind of started to break out of these different boundaries of either it's the gender stereotypes or the–or the kind of traditions of ink medium.

01:01:46.250 - 01:02:01.090

Like, can you tell us a little bit about how like you experiment different mediums, different genre, different motifs? Yes. When I come to US, so first of

01:02:01.090 - 01:02:15.030

all, I don't have the source, like Japanese pigment, that much, because their store they have a couple thousands different colors. So here when I go to art store, I see it’s–it’s oil, acrylic, or whatever.

01:02:16.200 - 01:02:29.040

But finally I found it's just not important, because what I'm—I can use around me. So I went to beach, I found the sand. So the beach sand is so opaque, the color

01:02:29.040 - 01:02:46.030

is beautiful; and also I feel warm and it’s–it’s close to me. So then I try to use sand with glue to—on my canvas. From there, I just felt, “Oh something simple.” Plain ; you don't need to find it at all, then you can talk about more directly.

01:02:46.820 - 01:02:59.270

Then soon I found the fabric. Because once we— I think, I really think it’s very interesting about make fashion design. I like to use fabric and scissor. Even in CAFA

01:02:59.270 - 01:03:15.420

time, I tried to make my own clothes myself, because don't have treasures buy so many different kind of design. So we don't have to use sewing–sewing machine, I just use needle. So from this test , you cannot say it's very

01:03:15.420 - 01:03:31.200

rough , but I made a new thing and the new style. I always have a, you know, big interest in—about fabric. So when I come to US–US, I wanted do something about close to me, I think is fabrics close to me.

01:03:31.650 - 01:03:47.170

So just like my second skin, you know, it's a special something, like your underwear fabric is very bouncy, it's flexible. Then you can make shape, you can make a layer, and that is really

01:03:47.430 - 01:04:02.740

talk to me. So I start to use fabric, as many different kinds of fabric, but again, I don't want to use anything, like too much fancy stuff. It's more—most plain stuff, is for me, is most

01:04:03.110 - 01:04:22.190

interesting. So a lot of things is I—my clothes, or my daughter's clothes, or something around the house. Then from there, I, you know, try find many different kind of, you know, like recycle stuff; so they really talk to me because they have a

01:04:22.190 - 01:04:34.420

history, they have a story. I used it, I noticed behind that what the time–time—what happened to me or to other, you know, it's like I can think about the

01:04:34.420 - 01:04:47.310

real life to other people. But the fabric, I like the flatness , and the softness. So, in my canvas even, I like use a

01:04:47.310 - 01:05:02.290

knife to cut off first, then I can feel the energy from the cutting place as come–come to me. So in the whole process while working, I feel like a dialogue: me and the work.

01:05:02.790 - 01:05:13.410

So the work and me, I don't know is which one go first and second; they always keep changing. And never do like something design that much, then I started work. I just let it go.

01:05:13.410 - 01:05:28.230

When I feel something I want to do, I just start. Then in the process they–they grow into—the changing and the accident always make your new–new idea and explore more.

01:05:30.010 - 01:05:44.840

They—it's very exciting, it’s from the past. It's not like I already know the end how looks like, I make it. That for me, it's kind of, like, boring, I don't want to do that kind of work. So I just keep trying.

01:05:45.020 - 01:06:01.490

And every time I like fresh, and like facing a new face and talk to me, I talk to the work. That's fascinating. And also I'm curious, since

01:06:03.900 - 01:06:20.320

your main career as an artist is in–in the US and more specifically on the West Coast, if I–I was correct in saying that. And do you see yourself associated with kind of

01:06:21.310 - 01:06:41.620

the—like, do you identify with the quote unquote Asian American artists? Yes, I think it's Asian Americans, is—that’s kind of like your blood, because I am Asian. But be artist, I never tried to really label myself like what kind is

01:06:42.350 - 01:07:03.150

depends on my gender, or my color, or my background, and my culture. But whatever, you know, people see my work, they can feel, that's who I am. And also I think I haven't lost that dimension. It's just like everybody is, they have so many different way to

01:07:03.240 - 01:07:17.430

thinking and to look at the person, and to be an artist, you go through your own story, life journey. Then you have many side to look about you and

01:07:17.580 - 01:07:32.050

thinking about your art. So be a woman artist and be a feminist artists for me is definitely “yes,” because I care about that. So my work is focused about identity, gender, and even

01:07:34.100 - 01:07:45.970

social justice, human rights. That I care about. But–but that—there is not only thing limit you. So like this year, many things happen.

01:07:46.200 - 01:08:00.480

You kind of, like, looking about— back about the human being. So that is, first you–you have to allow you to get wider, vision wider, express

01:08:01.740 - 01:08:18.030

possibility. Yeah, that's totally true. And I–I totally understand a lot of the artists are also very much engaged in the kind of art for social advocacy.

01:08:18.920 - 01:08:37.870

And I was reading that you are also in an exhibition that you–you were working on in 2019 for the June 4 massacre, which I–I think kind of grabbed a lot of media attention as it

01:08:37.870 - 01:08:53.260

was the–the 40 year— actually it's 30 years anniversary for the June 4 massacre. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes, yes. So that work, that main part is about

01:08:53.700 - 01:09:08.840

my—I have two clothes is in my canvas. So that clothes is when 198 I made by myself. I wore that clothes in the Square for lots of times.

01:09:09.540 - 01:09:23.820

So even I moved to Japan, moved to US, I never threw out. It's always in the bottom of my, you know, suitcase, because that's I made, and I have lots memory for me, and it's very important for me.

01:09:24.290 - 01:09:44.040

But that year, the work, I take off my clothes, then I re-do it on a canvas. But also I used tape, the black tape, like installation, and tape on the wall, because they still, you

01:09:44.040 - 01:09:58.270

know, they don't allow you talk about that, talk about June 4. So—but my work is my like a true personal memory about there. It's always there. So that's the work come from.

01:09:59.000 - 01:10:12.040

And–and also I have a lot photo there, but the photo is, I asked my—because I didn't take a lot of photo that time, but some of my friends have photo.

01:10:12.040 - 01:10:26.070

I asked them can offer photo to me, but they are really scared, they don't want to let the photo cause anything trouble. So I thought, "Okay, so I will seal the photo in the back, nobody can see it.

01:10:26.320 - 01:10:44.110

But it exists there.” So the photo is there too. And my, you know, my personal photo for that year and my school name is there, because I go through there, I go through the process,

01:10:44.740 - 01:10:57.560

so in the exhibition. But after couple days—it’s not after couple, before in a couple of days, I received—it’s kind of like WeChat, it’s a scary letter to me.

01:10:58.070 - 01:11:13.210

So it's just mean is, you know, they know what I'm doing, then–then be careful. So that’s—it’s–it’s part of—I don't know come from who, and where, and one person, or group people?

01:11:13.210 - 01:11:29.190

I don't know. So I feel, first I feel very scared. I don't know where—what will happen, but the end I just—and–and the organization is very nice. They told, "Oh, you can, you know, cancel this exhibition, or if

01:11:29.190 - 01:11:45.930

you really feel afraid, but that's your choice." But the end, I just, “Okay,” and I just keep going. Then there's a piece of work there. Did you have any, like, further kind of–kind of warning

01:11:46.880 - 01:11:59.070

or interaction from anyone? I—no, no, didn't. But I think it's for that time, so they just warning you. And because of before the day , so they are nervous.

01:11:59.800 - 01:12:19.750

They don't want to anything happen. So they warning you. Wow, that is, yeah, very, very interesting. And also I'm curious, like, as like the—in the

01:12:20.440 - 01:12:33.910

year and past year, we had a lot of engagements from the artist's side in the racial justice. As last year, as we all know, that we had kind of over—the

01:12:35.580 - 01:12:51.280

overturning news about the death of George Floyd and the amount of anti-Asian hate crimes, and it's still ongoing and rising because of—caused by the coronavirus. So I'm also curious, as an artist,

01:12:52.060 - 01:13:07.070

what do you see the artist's role in kind of social justice advocacy? And if artists can use their art to kind of perpetrate more voice in this—in the situations like this?

01:13:08.470 - 01:13:24.140

Yeah, these two years actually make me rethink about US—it’s before, we always think about US is a, you know, it's multi-culture and freedom, and people always equal and value for everybody.

01:13:25.570 - 01:13:39.640

But go through these two years, it’s more and more clear, I can see the true American problem: they really have a lot of people racist. And you know it's when people not

01:13:39.840 - 01:13:52.590

accept different; they divide people by Black, white, or Asian, whatever, you're Chinese, Japanese, Korean. So they start–start to fighting, then start violence.

01:13:53.830 - 01:14:11.530

Then people not be treat like really everyone's equal, so that’s for very clear. And even American system, for many ways, even COVID-19, you see people die, and the most case

01:14:11.900 - 01:14:22.830

in the poor area, and Black, and Latinos, because the system not go there. So if we not go through this, we probably not see that much.

01:14:23.320 - 01:14:38.550

But for these two years, I think is America have lots of problems, should improve. And like, you know, like Black Lives Matter or even this time, Stop Asian Hate, I think absolutely

01:14:39.490 - 01:14:55.460

everyone—it doesn't matter you're artist or not, everyone should stand up; everyone should speak out. Especially for artists, your–your function is you have to talk something truly you care, and from your persp—speak

01:14:59.090 - 01:15:15.440

your perspective to, you know, from the original language to make work, to influence people, and if you can. But I think it's people can, you know, can by their own experience

01:15:16.430 - 01:15:36.330

to look about art, and look about everything they can see, look at change. So that's very, very important for the artist's role. Yeah. I’m very, very fascinated to see a lot of artists actually

01:15:36.350 - 01:15:50.780

are giving more voices in this–in this very important topic right now. So, do you identify as an American? Well, I think it’s American Chinese.

01:15:51.560 - 01:16:09.740

Because I'm immigrate here, so even my passport is American, but it’s— I—my first identity is Chinese, so then come here. For me, I think even—whatever you go through many, you know, culture, you learned, you shaped by yourself, or you

01:16:09.740 - 01:16:21.540

shaped self by different cultures. But that's who you are. So I think yes. Yeah. For—I should be proud for who I am, and I should do

01:16:21.540 - 01:16:36.490

something for some people just like me, you know, it's speak out for them too. And I'm also curious with your–your daughter, who is, who spent most of their childhood since they were

01:16:37.220 - 01:16:52.900

young—you mentioned she was–she was born in Japan, right? And then she moved here when she was young. Like how does she identify, like, in case you have discussed this with her? And if—how–how–how do you also see the

01:16:53.050 - 01:17:12.490

difference, and in terms of cultural roots and cultural influence in relation to your—the country of origin in China? She—once, well, she's—she was very confused, because she was born in Japan, but I come from, you know,

01:17:12.490 - 01:17:28.560

even her father is Taiwanese, so we speak Chinese. Then she has a Taiwanese passport; when she was born, she was in Japan. Then later her mom is come from China Mainland. Then later she come to America.

01:17:28.930 - 01:17:44.590

She sometimes, she asked me, "Mom, where I belong to? Who am I?" I said, "You are, you're basically, you're Chinese—American Chinese." She said, "Oh, so–so should I...?" You know, she speak a little bit Japanese, because she forgot.

01:17:45.040 - 01:18:01.350

When she was young, she's, you know, just like Japanese kids, but too young to come to here. But she still can speak a little bit and can listen. Chinese, she can conversate with me and with my

01:18:01.550 - 01:18:15.550

mom on the phone; but she could not write. Then she most like American kids now. So she just graduated from NYU last year, and

01:18:17.180 - 01:18:31.020

in the pandemic time. She didn't know she should go back to New York or not, there—she just come back home, then graduate on the TV, graduation ceremony on the TV.

01:18:31.560 - 01:18:46.170

She found she never go back to New York, even her apartment still have her stuff. First I thought, “Maybe you just give up the stuff,” is everything—she said, "No, I have many things I need. I don't want to throw out." So I found the moving company,

01:18:46.610 - 01:19:00.010

moved everything back to California. Now she found a job in San Francisco that she work in home, because you know, COVID you cannot go back to company person by person,

01:19:00.470 - 01:19:14.110

so she's working at home. But she—I think she-she's very proud be many different culture, she thinks she's very unique. That's wonderful.

01:19:15.720 - 01:19:33.580

And moving on to a little bit on the commercial art side, since I was researching that you also have a gallery representation, can you tell us a little bit about the artists' career side in terms

01:19:34.630 - 01:19:46.850

of the–the gallery representation? And what's your relationship like with the commercial art world? I really appreciate about the galleries. It's—one is in Hong Kong, Gallerie du Monde.

01:19:47.730 - 01:20:03.610

Now it’s—I just have one exhibition in Qualia Gallery in Palo Alto. So they really, they respect my work; it’s not like commercial art. They–they like what I'm doing,

01:20:04.190 - 01:20:19.090

and my work quality, they think is conceptual art. So it's–it’s not difficult time to working with them. But I’m—I—when I work, I never thinking about the marketing, how it’s going on,

01:20:19.250 - 01:20:34.110

or the accept you, or people like your work or not. I think it's art: you have to be truly, first present you as like who you are, so it's—you have to like your work first.

01:20:34.980 - 01:20:49.930

Then–then maybe someone in a similar perspective like it, or even gallery, they appreciate, so to do it. I don't think this very contradiction situation for me.

01:20:50.480 - 01:21:01.680

But I know a lot of artists, they're really struggling by that. Because you—if you want to do real art, then art in the gallery, they cannot present you, or what-whatever.

01:21:01.680 - 01:21:17.950

So it really depends on how your relationship with the galleries, and I think I'm lucky for, yeah, we have a same—similar, you know, ways to thinking about. Yeah, that’s wonderful.

01:21:19.380 - 01:21:35.270

And speaking of the art scene. since your—majority of your career are spent in the US, what do you think might be the most misunderstood aspect of Asian

01:21:35.270 - 01:21:52.430

American artists in the US? I think my—for me, I think I just want to be a human being, like artist. So you—it doesn't matter what kind

01:21:53.200 - 01:22:12.030

art-artists they call you, but–but I just thinking, you know, you have to focus what you focus too. So if I have an exhibition opportunity in anywhere, I think that's fine, but I will use both of my name, it’s

01:22:12.030 - 01:22:30.010

Chinese name and English name. And yeah, it's pretty natural for me. I don't–I don't mind, so they label me about the Chinese or America or, you know, woman artist or whatever.

01:22:30.060 - 01:22:44.450

So it just–it just fine. Yeah, and I also want to say thank you for allowing people to read your work and giving them the freedom to interpret it in their own ways.

01:22:44.450 - 01:22:54.680

Of course, of course. I'm thank you for the opportunity for let people to know my work. But for myself, I just thinking, “Just keep working.”

01:22:56.980 - 01:23:12.940

Yeah, and I'm also curious since we are in your studio now, kind of virtually. What are you working on next? I have a lot idea in my mind. So like this time the pandemic for me, is I stay studio

01:23:13.150 - 01:23:24.640

a lot. So the bad side for everybody: the uncertainty, they nervous, panic for the whole global is sadness. So many people died. But for artists,

01:23:24.960 - 01:23:41.120

for myself, I think I got benefit because I have lots of time, and stay home, stay gallery, working. But of—a lot my work in this year kind like my diary, it's every day

01:23:41.180 - 01:23:55.470

I try to recording my emotional and my feeling. It’s—of course from beginning time, I feel so scared. It's everyday I just wa-watching the TV and cell phone about news. And one

01:23:55.470 - 01:24:11.530

month, I just get lost, I don't know what's exactly happening. Then I didn't do work in the first month because it's panic. So after my month, my whole energy is come to my work.

01:24:11.900 - 01:24:26.060

So I continue every day, maybe in one year I worked maybe over like 200 pieces. Doesn't matter how big or small, they recording that moment, what I feel, even

01:24:26.060 - 01:24:38.230

the tragic, tragic feeling, is for–for recording. That's the only thing I can do. It's kinda like it’s, for me, like healing myself too. Because if I don't do work,

01:24:40.750 - 01:24:54.760

I don't know what, you know, can deal with this. It’s—but for now, I think about even every month my work keep changing, because every month, the news change, my mood change.

01:24:57.190 - 01:25:08.960

That's very important: in a certain moment, you have to right away to do something, otherwise after a couple days, they're different, you're feeling different. So I have a lot of work for this year.

01:25:09.700 - 01:25:22.570

But the–the problem is my space; even in my studio is—when I have studio, I feel is so big, it’s ver—I was very happy. But little by little, the work is more and more, I think it's busy to call .

01:25:23.280 - 01:25:40.170

But you can–you can see a little bit about what's going on. Yeah a lot—lots work I put on the wall, but I also have an upstairs, I have other studio. And also have to rent two storage, put my

01:25:41.030 - 01:25:57.430

works there. Artists need space, yeah, that's very important. If once you are working in a small space, your work must be–be limited. So—but you, if you want un-limit the work, that’s reality,

01:25:57.430 - 01:26:13.520

it is impossible, especially like California like San Francisco. Yeah, thank you for taking us on this little trip on your studio too. And I'm also

01:26:13.550 - 01:26:27.920

curious with the—your work, you kind of have a number of series or number of bodies, and they're like, I don't know, chapters in your artistic books. Can you talk a little bit about the different series?

01:26:28.820 - 01:26:44.330

Like you have the— Yeah, this is my habit: when I do work, I like to do series. Because I know it’s one piece work, you probably cannot to feel enough for you to express your—this

01:26:45.240 - 01:26:59.270

period of time. So—but I don't limit myself once I get good for something, or good for a certain form, or style, or material. So I will stop. I will stop for thinking about.

01:26:59.380 - 01:27:14.460

So kind of like self-denial; but self-denial is—for me is very, very important, because they allow you to keep change, keep move. So that's the biggest freedom for you.

01:27:15.010 - 01:27:29.190

So you're not afraid, you're not get stuck in something. So my period— every work, I will—every canvas I working for is-is different. Some is a one month, some is maybe couple

01:27:29.190 - 01:27:40.940

months, some maybe one year. But I must be stop when I get too used to it. So that's my personal goal. And I like challenge myself, so that's—it’s exciting

01:27:42.900 - 01:27:57.940

and keep my mind fresh, and to rethink and growing, that's important for artists. It's hard to think, imagine if I stayed in one style, so forever to do it, probably

01:28:00.750 - 01:28:20.260

it's not me. If–if an art historian or art critic discovers your—not–not discover, but more like rediscover your work after like 200 years, what do you want them to see your work as? Like what–what kind of statement or your

01:28:20.790 - 01:28:35.070

manifesto would you like to leave it for them? I don't know, it’s 200 years, what will be happen. It’s the world changes so quick, is everything. I think it's maybe, you know, it's an art, they will be

01:28:35.160 - 01:28:52.390

assessed different way. Maybe it's—I can make something, but–but I hope they can see the recording about this wave of time via individual person, individual artist: what

01:28:52.390 - 01:29:04.920

they do, and what influence in–in a, you know, it's everything influencing the artwork. So just kind of like a note, like my art notes to

01:29:05.200 - 01:29:21.760

present what happened for me for this time. Wow, that has been a wonderful 90 minute we just passed right there, but I'm–I’m just wondering if there's anything else that I should have covered?

01:29:22.480 - 01:29:41.770

And please— I think it's pretty good, you have very good questions. And—but only thing I think is the artist, you have be very active, and follow your passion. And for myself, I try to—especially maybe age, I try to

01:29:41.770 - 01:29:54.690

save every single time I do something, I think it's more value, it’s more important things, like do art. But when I stay in the studio, it’s not only doing; sometimes I'm thinking.

01:29:55.280 - 01:30:19.990

Because around my work, just like every piece, like my recently work, like my meditation to look it, and thinking it, and feel it. And then try to challenge next step. And what would you say for your daughter and their children and so

01:30:19.990 - 01:30:31.840

on, like in the future? Yeah, I think it's important thing, whatever you—what kind of career you want to do, just follow your heart, just follow your passion.

01:30:32.140 - 01:30:47.620

If you like something, you want to do something, you must be do good. Then you can be deeply and found the—deep found meaning, and not give up, not easy to say no.

01:30:47.620 - 01:30:53.320

Yeah, just keep trying, working hard. Thank you so much, Stella. Thank you. You too. Thank you.