00:00:00.579 - 00:00:21.219

Ok. Hello, today is June 24th 2019 and we're in the Shepherd School of Music in Professor Chen's office here to interview her. Um, I am Tiffany Sloan. I'm Mary Claire Neil and this is um, yes and so, um, Professor Chen, could you please just kind of

00:00:21.229 - 00:00:38.740

start talking to us about your childhood and where you're from? Ok. Um, I was born in Taipei, Taiwan. Um, do you need my date? Uh Yes, please. Oh, September 6th, 1962. Um, well, actually let me try, um, go back a little bit. I was born in

00:00:38.750 - 00:00:56.090

Taipei but I actually grew up uh outside of Taipei a couple uh about an hour or so. Uh we, when we were little, we living with my grandmother, uh I was there until when I was uh second grade eight years old. Um, so I feel my

00:00:56.099 - 00:01:16.370

childhood is actually very, very, um exciting and fun, you know, because my grandmother run a hotel. Um, and so that, um it's, it's always busy, always busy there. So many people, you know that with the guest with, um, um, you know, the, the helpers and it's

00:01:16.379 - 00:01:36.860

always, it's always busy And so I, I feel my daughter, for example, now they are so busy studying, they don't have a real childhood, you know, my, my child, we just having a lot of fun, you know, and I, I remember my, um because my grandmother's

00:01:36.870 - 00:01:57.510

hotel is actually the most sound structure and with that place, sort of like, uh you know, people are not wealthy and, you know, uh so in addition to the guest and uh um uh the, the help helpers, uh the events that really may be like in,

00:01:57.580 - 00:02:17.089

in, in case of typhoon when you, you know, it's pretty common there. And my grandmother who uh was widowed and very shrewd business woman and she was actually ill. She does not read or, you know, doesn't even write. Um So, but in those days she will

00:02:17.100 - 00:02:33.830

all, all those times, those emergency times, she will open the door to anybody who needs to be sheltered and something I remember that was a great fun, you know, every it's for everybody, you know. Um And then um another event I remember is the the moon,

00:02:33.839 - 00:02:52.429

the men walking the moon. And again, there are very few people uh uh very people had television then and, and so my grandma again would open the door. Everybody. I remember we were staying up. I don't know what, how old was I, but I remember vividly

00:02:52.440 - 00:03:10.360

that there were so many people came into the hotel and we were watching watching Neil Armstrong walking the moon, you know, it was just really fun. Um But, but on a mundane daily basis, I feel um in addition to going to maybe kindergarten or little half

00:03:10.369 - 00:03:25.410

day school, I will be home most of the time. And then um my siblings are a little older, they will be a way to study, you know, go to, went to school or something. But um I would be just there watching uh Taiwanese opera with the,

00:03:25.419 - 00:03:41.520

with the, with our hotel guests because for them, that's the biggest entertainment. There's not a big deal, you know, not a movie or internet and stuff like that. So that was interesting, you know, I I my first language is actually Taiwanese even though my Taiwanese is

00:03:41.529 - 00:03:58.649

not very good now because I haven't spoken quite a bit. Um And then, then the Mandarin after when you go to school, they, they teach you Mandarin, right? And then English in the middle school. Um but I remember encounter these uh these, these people uh like

00:03:58.660 - 00:04:16.649

uh the they are, it is not a really like a five star hotel at all. This is a very low key hotel and um the the guests, they are like mostly um working, hard working people. Um And then um it was interesting that about three years

00:04:16.660 - 00:04:38.260

ago, I wrote a piece, a concerto. Um and they ask uh some kind of relationship with the literature and I start to do research on the poetry. And then I eventually found four poems by this uh a very famous Taiwanese uh writer. Uh and, and what

00:04:38.269 - 00:04:57.059

she, what he is is his name. What he's famous for is again, not talking about high um society but very mundane, you know, especially Taiwanese people. Um you know, not uh mainland China people that's a different, they come a little later. I don't know if you

00:04:57.070 - 00:05:12.850

know that history in any case. And, and so when I, what I feel really close to this poetry because these are the people that I'm so used to when, when I was little, they come to my grandmother's hotel, you know, they are my, my grandma's neighbors

00:05:12.859 - 00:05:33.829

and all that. And so it's uh uh it's very rich. I feel that a lot of time you meet all kind, all works people. Um So that was my childhood and then I guess my, you know, my parents are educate um college educated at that time.

00:05:33.859 - 00:05:55.730

Uh I guess uh college education, it's not easy. So for my parents, it's very important. Education is extremely important. So my third grade um they moved the whole family to Taipei. Um so in order to have a better school, um and uh we move more than

00:05:55.739 - 00:06:10.950

once, whenever there is a necessary to go to a better school, my parents would, would always take us to the, you know, the better school. I remember, you know, my parents when they first moved to Taipei even though they have good jobs. But we have five

00:06:10.959 - 00:06:32.779

kids. You know, I'm the youngest. Um, it's not easy. Money is not easy but we always have a tutor. You know, education is so important tutors and piano lessons, painting for my siblings and all that, that I always remember that money is tight, was tight. But

00:06:32.790 - 00:06:52.329

then, um, education is, is, is so important for them, uh, that we all have a good education. Um And I feel like that somehow it's also instilled in me the value of education. And so when my daughter who was born in the United States, right, um

00:06:53.250 - 00:07:15.040

um it's so important for her to understand Chinese. Um so not Taiwanese language, it's not as, you know, that's a different, that's a really hard, hard language to, to, to learn. So when she was about third grade, I we I took um I took her to

00:07:15.049 - 00:07:36.470

Taiwan to study. So she was uh she went to a public school on third grade. Uh and um fifth grade and sixth grade, she graduated from Taiwan uh public school from Taiwan with a, with a really difficult one. So again, I feel it's so important for

00:07:36.480 - 00:07:57.040

her to understand that to be bilingual, not only read, right? And but not only this language, but also the identity, I feel like to be understanding um what Taiwan is about, what you know, what a mother tongue so to speak really. So I feel that's just

00:07:57.049 - 00:08:15.190

like my, my parents, they think that, um, to install the, the, the, the learning knowledge experience, um, it's, it's so important. Um, can you talk a little bit about your experience with education in Taiwan? Um, from my understanding, there's like tracks that you're set on for

00:08:15.200 - 00:08:32.640

like specific career goals. And, um, how did you kind of do that whenever you're, um, intending to do music with your life? Well, you know, actually when we were little you can go to music school. I mean, they have two different from first grade. You become

00:08:32.650 - 00:08:47.690

a, like music school all the way to, I didn't go to that. I didn't, for, for one thing I was moving around, you know, I started composition. I mean, I studied piano when I was six years old but I was not, didn't think that was gonna

00:08:47.700 - 00:09:03.140

become my, no, I don't know. I mean, it's just part of education, you know, that's the way we think. My parents think it's part of education. You know, I also paint quite a bit and also write. I, I, when she enrolled me some kind of, uh,

00:09:03.270 - 00:09:23.659

composition classes and that's just part of education and it wasn't until about 15 years old that, um, um, somehow I just feel like this is something I should, I could pursue and then I like it. You know, I was, and then my piano teacher had noticed

00:09:23.669 - 00:09:36.400

that I was always good about analyzing piece of music. And I know the, I know my finger cannot move, but I already know the form and I know, I mean, I, I just come back and something and all this is backward. This is, you know, all

00:09:36.409 - 00:09:51.039

those, those kind of uh theory thing. I was good at it and he, he said it to me. Oh, why don't you do a, a composition? And I said, OK, that sounds good. I don't want to practice. So I, so at age 16, I went to

00:09:51.049 - 00:10:13.919

a conservatory which at the time, um it's the best training in music um at, in Taiwan. And then um for five years, I graduated from there, I think 1982. And so I, I want to pursue longer a Western Western music composition. So I came to the

00:10:13.929 - 00:10:30.429

States when I was not even 20 I enrolled a masters degree and when I was age 20 because I passed out all these courses, you know, I went to and I um I stayed in Northern Illinois University for three years and I got two masters degrees.

00:10:30.919 - 00:10:52.830

And then I start my doctor at Bu Boston University. Age 20 what? 23 I think, you know. So, um again, at that time, I feel uh I just want to know better about what uh wasn't, it takes so long to understand a music training and a

00:10:52.840 - 00:11:06.619

nice style of composing and all and all that. I mean, actually, I started composing when I was 16 because as soon as he got into the a major in composition in the Conservatory style when I was 16, I guess. So, um in your early childhood kind

00:11:06.630 - 00:11:23.599

of before you realized you wanted to do composition, was there something else that you wanted to do before that, or like your dream job when you were a child? Um I feel like when every one of us all have these divisions, I mean, like we are

00:11:23.609 - 00:11:41.309

good at, not just one thing, right? Uh, I think in my generation at the time, we sort of have to sacrifice everything for one to be in a good musician or good, you know, so that's sort of, that track is very direct and very intense and

00:11:41.320 - 00:11:57.140

very concentrated. If we, if I had stuff on the, the first grade, that's even worse. Right? I mean, worse in a, in a sense, I feel it's, you know, it just like, technically you are amazing but then you, your understanding is a little bit, uh, maybe

00:11:57.150 - 00:12:12.409

one sided and that those in our time and then, then you go to the master, you go to doctor and all that, it gets a little better. But again, they still concentrate in music where I think now, um, my daughter's generation is a totally different story.

00:12:13.289 - 00:12:29.020

Oh, we just came back from the school visit at the, at the east coast. You can have, you don't have to declare a major until you are the second year or you can have a double concentration, triple minor or something like that. I thought that's fantastic.

00:12:29.030 - 00:12:50.349

You know, because that's really, uh, um, that's a really much fulfilling, much for fulfilling life and rather than just concentrating one thing. And I think that also become a better musician because you, you know, music is not just, it's not a, right. That's what rise, keep

00:12:50.359 - 00:13:11.919

saying. right? It's not a, but it's a combination of, of your knowledge, your understanding, your, your, your philosophy or you under, you know, that's a much wider perspective um approach. Um I feel right now I have um my dream job in a sense because right now

00:13:12.020 - 00:13:34.460

I'm sort of having a, like my teenage rebuilding year um which I went back um after I feel um I've been teaching here for a while and I feel like I just need to be in contact with my heritage again. And, and then I, I mentioned

00:13:34.469 - 00:13:50.979

that brought my daughter back to Taiwan, you know, partially because of her, but partially a big part of it is me, I want to study more of Asian music. I know nothing about Taiwanese music or Chinese music or any, you know, only because I'm 100% true

00:13:50.989 - 00:14:09.010

in Western music. Um And although we do study some poetry and culture and all that and it was, you know, it was so long ago. So in 2010. I was actually, you know, took a Sabbatical and Fulbright. Um, what do you call a Fulbright, uh, senior

00:14:09.070 - 00:14:27.770

fellowship, whatever that is. I went back to Taiwan for a year and I went to, uh, study traditional music. Um, you know, not just on the paper or on recording, you know, that's what I will be doing when I came to the States since 2015, 2000.

00:14:27.780 - 00:14:49.520

No. Uh, was it 1985 82? If I want to study anything um of Asian music, I need to go to the library, right? And those days, the internet is not that good either, right? And it's, but it's in sort of indirect method of study. But by

00:14:49.530 - 00:15:07.640

actually going back to the, to the, the place, you know, just looking around, the people walking around and you know, speak the language, right? And that's a totally different story. So I feel so enriched by that experience um to, to go back to Taiwan to study

00:15:07.650 - 00:15:25.010

the music and indigenous music, um a tribal custom and those things that I thought was so amazing. Yeah. And so whenever you were studying composition in Taiwan, was it always a goal to come to the US or did that just kind of come up later? Well,

00:15:25.020 - 00:15:47.809

I at those days, you know, 1980 eighties, if you want to study Western music, you don't study in Taiwan, right? Of course, you come to the West either in uh to the, to Europe or the United States. Um, and in fact, I almost went to Paris

00:15:47.820 - 00:16:03.390

and I was almost set to get a scholarship to go to Paris. They have some kind of, uh, exchange or something to go. And then I, by chance I, I met, um, a teacher professor was visiting Taiwan at the moment at the time when I was,

00:16:03.400 - 00:16:18.909

you know, the last year. And, um, he just give me a, you know, uh uh introduction of a school uh application. And I went home and I said, my mother, hey, I, I met this guy today. He's teaching in the United States. And my mother said,

00:16:18.919 - 00:16:36.340

well, you going to, there, you are not going to Paris, you're going to dekalb, which is a middle of like a farm and a corn land. It's like a middle of a very, very simple life. And you're not going to Paris. And I was like, are

00:16:36.349 - 00:16:53.309

you crazy? I'm not going to the middle of the corn land. She said, well, you know, you are only 1920 years old, you're gonna be lost totally. If you go to a big city like that, you know, and of course, she's very protective. Um, now being

00:16:53.320 - 00:17:11.020

a mother myself, I understand I would, I might not be, continue doing music, right? Let me just be um overwhelmed or like allured by this attraction of the big city, you know. And so you first came to Illinois Right. Yes. Um, so did that kind of

00:17:11.030 - 00:17:24.859

match your perception of what America would be like, or is there anything kind of shocking or surprising? Oh, yes. That's very strange because Taipei is a big city. Right. And when I first arrived in Dekalb, I couldn't sleep because it was so quiet. I was like,

00:17:24.869 - 00:17:44.249

wow. And, uh, other than that it was great. I, I really focus on my study and she was right. I was, you know, um, language barrier is already a big deal. And luckily I was good in music part. And so I was able to just, um,

00:17:44.259 - 00:18:01.089

have concentrated time and understand what it is. Um, when I went to Boston, however, I had a big culture shock in Boston because they have accent is so strong. I live in the Midwest with a, you know, really standard American accent and the boss, I was

00:18:01.099 - 00:18:17.030

like, the, especially like, you know, the kind of hobby yacht. What are you talking about? I was so shocked and, you know, uh, um, and in Boston, of course, is the pace is really fast, right? And I'm sort of used to the, the Midwest. And so

00:18:17.040 - 00:18:30.880

that was the first year was hard. But then eventually I, I got used to it to Boston. I lived in Boston for 17 years. So that was, um, I had a great memory there. That's a great city. Yeah. Um, were there any differences with how, um,

00:18:30.890 - 00:18:55.540

music composition was taught in Taipei and then how it was taught in like Illinois or in Boston. Um, well, first of all, a lot of my teachers in Taiwan are European trained because in those generation, my teacher, teachers generation, you don't go to the United States.

00:18:55.550 - 00:19:13.660

Europe is because again, you know, music is western music is European music rather than American music, right? And so all a lot of my, my, um my, my teachers, they went to Europe rather than the United States. But I think that gradually United States becomes an

00:19:13.670 - 00:19:34.300

important center. And also United States offered the offer the degree, um doctor degree, for example, right? And so well, Europeans still uh they have some kind of equipment but but not a doctor degree. So uh for two reasons, more and more people come to the States.

00:19:34.489 - 00:19:53.910

Number one is uh degrees, offering degrees. And now you want to teach anywhere in, especially in Asia, you need a doctor degree. Secondly, um it's no longer sort of center European center. I mean, it's become a different styles and different concentration, different ideas of what music

00:19:53.920 - 00:20:12.209

should be or can be. But um the United States because because of uh wealth, you know, this freedom, you know, so it becomes a lot of people come here. So right now the next generation, beginning my generation, there are a lot more uh people studying in

00:20:12.219 - 00:20:35.869

the United States rather than in Europe continue to Europe. But could progress more. So the difference is I think that the European, my teachers in, in Taiwan or European teaching is a little bit more. Hm, I would say uh handsome, maybe like they tell you, this

00:20:35.880 - 00:20:53.109

is the way it had to be done or, you know, lecture style, we United States, it's very much more open to that. They, they, they want you to develop in yourself. And I, and I think that's a, a huge difference between European style and the United

00:20:53.119 - 00:21:16.069

United States style here. It's a big melting pot. So you got all kinds of um people and different kind of a standard. And, and I think my reason, my, my, she's not so recent but my idea of what music can be, which as part of me,

00:21:16.079 - 00:21:38.150

as my Asian background that is allowed in United States, they value that you individualism. And then um in Taiwan, I think Taiwan for a while, my future generation, you had to write in certain style and to be considered a serious composer. But here and that's as

00:21:38.160 - 00:21:56.349

uh there's no certain style because everybody has to look for, for themselves, you know, so I think that's the biggest, big difference is the freedom that uh you are allowed uh to pursue. What, what do you think you are? And, and therefore that's how I, I

00:21:56.359 - 00:22:18.000

my music evolved. I think my earlier uh my student time music is very avant garde European style. And I think still that, but my later music would be incorporate more of my tradition, my Asian background. Um And so, um and that is not necessarily pursued, I

00:22:18.010 - 00:22:32.609

think in, in people who, who went to Europe or who, who live in Asia. And so, um I've seen some reviews on your music and they said that you're really kind of the spearhead in your field of combining like Western styles with styles from Asia. Can

00:22:32.619 - 00:22:49.260

you kind of define what would be like a style from Asia or a style from the West? For someone who isn't really like that knowledgeable about composition? Yeah, it's really hard, right? What is just like, what is American style? It's really hard, it's so abstract, right?

00:22:49.660 - 00:23:13.770

And um what is the real, I think the very basic ones you can say it's incorporate of maybe a, a folk melody, right? That's or, or some kind of a scale pentatonic scale. That's a very basic thing or saying um an Asian instrument, right? Say uh

00:23:13.780 - 00:23:33.229

a I don't know if you know what is or you could use the instruments for helping you to uh incorporate uh the connotation of these instruments and just help you to quickly um going to the other sound world or using a poetry, right? Like say this

00:23:33.239 - 00:23:56.930

Asian uh towards the idea, these are all very, very basic I feel in the first stage where I think before I went back to Taiwan in 2010, I am staying in that stage where, um, that's just easier and that's what I have because I live in

00:23:56.939 - 00:24:23.939

the States. No, in Taiwan. So therefore you don't have that, that kind of, uh, of security or, um, what's the word for it? Security or a deeper understanding what the culture is. But then I think in a much more, um, much more uh sophisticated or events

00:24:23.949 - 00:24:47.109

or may not be relying on that at all. And I think 11 thing might be the, the way you think about time because music is a time art, right? So the way you think about time in Asian, it's almost, um, much more static, unfolding, unfolding allow

00:24:47.119 - 00:25:08.959

things to happen rather than I'm not, I shouldn't say force more progressive like, you know, Beethoven, you know, Beethoven's music, it's just like keep going, moving forward, right. That kind of like you gotta do this, this, this, this, but Asian could be just like, oh. Mhm.

00:25:09.859 - 00:25:31.250

And it's nothing really happened for three minutes. We're better off in this already, like the other part, you know, and so I think that understanding it's, it's, it's hard for a western training person to unlearn that. So there was a real struggle for me to try

00:25:31.260 - 00:25:50.410

to unlearn that. Uh Well, I, I'm not gonna do progressively in music anymore but, but that's how I grew up in, in the western tradition. So I sort of my, my understanding going back and forth, um, somehow I would, um, at some point, I will just

00:25:50.420 - 00:26:09.319

accept who I am because I'm not gonna write a Asian music or Chinese music, but I'm not totally with the music either. So there's a music that evolved from both east, west and east and yet at the same time, it's neither that or not, it has

00:26:09.329 - 00:26:25.319

new genre. I mean, just like Asian Americans, right? Or, or maybe the parents are from Asia, right? And they have a very Asian ideas. And then you live in the West, which is a very Western idea. Well, somehow Asian American has to find their space and

00:26:25.329 - 00:26:43.130

they have evolved a little different ideas. What issue can be is a combination of both a little bit more, that more West, a little more. So it doesn't matter, right? So my, um my recent understanding what Asian music is, I, I don't think it should be

00:26:43.140 - 00:27:04.390

Asian music, it should be a transcultural music. It should be a cross cultural music because what is radiation, what is not been in China these days? Right. And then uh Chinese instruments originally, people who are from Central Asia, right? From, to go to uh the West

00:27:04.400 - 00:27:23.739

become from the China, become people or you know, it, it's, it's so mixed. There's no possibility we want a pure culture as much as we want to. That's a romantic idea and that's uh uh you try to fix something and back something. It's uh it's very

00:27:23.750 - 00:27:42.880

deadly I think that's not doing anybody any good. You know, the whole 21st century even more so in the Silk world time, which already if you read those ideas silk grow time, there was so much more transcultural and back and forth, business, politically and politics and

00:27:42.890 - 00:28:06.050

business culture, everything is already back and forth. But now because internet, that one, it's even more easy and more possible, much more fluid and culture is very fluid. We need to that flow the different ways rather than say this is Asian music. So, did you have

00:28:06.060 - 00:28:24.439

any teachers or professors who kind of inspired you to think this way or was this an internal process of your evolution of your musical philosophy over time? Well, I think that um some of my teachers in Taiwan who actually if they didn't go to, they didn't

00:28:24.449 - 00:28:41.989

want to go out to the West. They actually, they are like, you know, but they're much more, they said we need to preserve Asian blah, blah, blah. But at a teenager, you know, I was there a teenager you don't want, you don't understand. First of all.

00:28:42.000 - 00:28:59.829

Secondly, uh what do you, what do you mean? I don't want to be like you maybe, you know, I, I respect you but it's not what I want to do, right? So I think gradually it's through the age and, and, and even though um I was

00:28:59.839 - 00:29:20.560

very, I've been really lucky to come to this country. Successful to have many awards like um Guggenheim and Rome Prize. And you know, you know, working with these big orchestra in Philadelphia, I was real war. But gradually you feel something is missing, something is, is missing.

00:29:20.569 - 00:29:38.880

And therefore when that does not fulfill anymore, then you look for what, what fulfills you, what makes sense to you. And then again, I think age secondly, because in the United States, I think the United States allowed you to say, OK, you have your own voice.

00:29:38.890 - 00:29:55.959

That's fine. I think in Europe is still, is still quite, they still have a, a burden. Maybe they still want to um they don't have the burden, they have a burden and they don't have a burden that we do. For example, we have burden because we

00:29:55.969 - 00:30:14.339

have such an opposite culture, the background and the European, right? The German and English. They are, to me, they are more close than uh uh uh Chinese or Taiwanese to the to, to the, the German. Does that answer your question? I think so. Yeah. And then

00:30:14.349 - 00:30:34.329

also, do you think your coming of age as a person coincided with your coming of age musically or were there different? Yeah, I think so. I think so because I'm a person before I'm a musician, right? And for the longest time, I, I feel so separated,

00:30:34.339 - 00:30:48.449

separated in terms of like I'm a musician, I'm a western musician. I'm only trained only western music, but I speak the Chinese Taiwanese and language. I am, I still eat Chinese. I love Chinese food. I don't, if I have a choice, I will not go to

00:30:48.459 - 00:31:05.569

mcdonald's. Uh And so there's sort of separation, right? And then, then later on, I, I have more, I have a teaching career. I'm a teaching job and then I have, I have a daughter, right? I have a family right there. And so I'm pull in different

00:31:05.579 - 00:31:28.880

directions and, and so, um a again with age when you, when I was uh when I was older, I mean, a certain point, it's just like, why do I have to divide myself? So I, I sort of incorporate what, who am I into much of uh

00:31:28.890 - 00:31:44.170

a unified one circle, one cell rather than, you know, dividing that. So that's why I took my daughter to Taiwan. Now I'm offering a course this is called cross cultural contemporary music. I told you it's been the fourth year. So if I want to teach, I

00:31:44.180 - 00:32:01.550

want to teach something that is related to me, right? And also as I said to you, I don't know that much about Asian music compare in, compared to my understanding was music, which is, you know, since I was six years old, my Asian music is very,

00:32:01.560 - 00:32:16.900

very limited. And so if I want to teach, I want to learn also. So I want to learn a Asian music. Um what is, what it is about? So, I am and I don't know if you realize that the sheer school is amazing school, but it's

00:32:16.910 - 00:32:42.290

a western music. We have a no e musicologist, you know, and in fact the whole university, Rice University has no Asian expert, music expert. Right. Houston, um Asian music expert. I don't know. So, um I would invite um these people from Taiwan or China or, you

00:32:42.300 - 00:32:57.000

know, Turkey and, you know, I've been doing different Korean and all and, and a lot of times, not only the musicians performing, but also at uh at a musicologist, scholar theorist and to give us some ideas what, you know, what it is about, you know, so

00:32:57.010 - 00:33:11.900

I learned so much in this class. So I feel like so my idea, my, my, my family is, is one part of this Asian thing now and my, my um uh my teaching is part of this in my conversation, of course, and I've been trying to

00:33:11.910 - 00:33:26.229

do that. So I feel much more fulfilled as one person. So, back to your idea. What would you, what's your dream job? I think I have a dream job now because I am allowed um as a professor, you know, I'm academic freedom. I think the Shepherd

00:33:26.239 - 00:33:39.839

school and also Rice University, they give you so much academic freedom. You have an idea, you want to do, you do it. So I have a dream job right now. Um Can you talk about some of your experience whenever you did go back to Taiwan on

00:33:39.849 - 00:34:00.439

the Fulbright scholarship and kind of like what you did and like, what that was like on the day to day, like, kind of, like, inspired your music to change. Um, hm, what I think the most interesting one was, um, learning how to play and perform in

00:34:00.449 - 00:34:23.060

the traditional music, you know, playing and, and, and that, because, um, as a teacher I just keep over what I know, right. And then turning back, become a AAA student and also become a, a student that is basic 101 because I don't know, they have different

00:34:23.070 - 00:34:41.939

system in terms of notation, different tuning, different prac performance practice and different thinking about what music can be. You know, it's an oral tradition, it's a, it's a, you don't, I mean, the music there, it's just as a, a guide, a help and you do a

00:34:41.949 - 00:35:02.439

lot of improvisation on top of that, right? And so that totally, totally uh changed my idea what music can be. And, and that was so amazing because I don't, you know, 20th century music in Western music is very different in the 19th century and very different

00:35:02.449 - 00:35:19.929

in 16th century. And which is more closer to this Asian idea where it is much more fluid, but still, it's nothing compared to this region, you know, Asian music. So, so that was a, such a uh an experience that not just reading the paper, not just

00:35:19.939 - 00:35:34.459

reading that, I just went to a lecture. You actually, um, you actually do it to perform, you know. And so that was a really, really great experience. And, and I think at age 40 when you go back to become a student, I was like, oh my

00:35:34.469 - 00:35:54.439

God, it was so intimidating, you know. And then, and yet I think it was really interesting that, um, they, they say to me that, um, don't worry this, this is, uh, it's not unusual for, uh, for, for the, uh, for especially female, a male too after

00:35:54.449 - 00:36:10.139

the child bearing age to go back to, to take up some kind of music, idea, music, uh, practice and, and, and they get together, you know, like a OK idea. Um, and so everybody can do it and no, no problem, you know, that idea. It's so

00:36:10.149 - 00:36:29.169

different, that kind of sort of relaxed, much more relaxed and they just, you know, just have fun. They, they really call a game, have fun then this conservatory training, you know, precision, this, you know, this is this, which I'm used to. If you don't come back,

00:36:29.179 - 00:36:42.350

you don't come in to the speed. You, you, you, you like, you skip, you know, it just, it's not possible if you are not precise but there, it's so much more laid back and, and people just if you made a mistake, no big deal, let's start

00:36:42.360 - 00:36:56.090

over again. You do this, you know, there's not, you know, in terms of time when I was talking about time, there's not a time notation. It's everybody sort of flow together. If you're late, I'll wait for you and then we'll go to next if you, oh,

00:36:56.100 - 00:37:11.389

you are a little sharp and I, I'll adjust myself to you where it's not possible in the west. You know, you have, it's very, very precise. So that kind of idea of the time it flows and um it's very different in the western training. So I,

00:37:11.399 - 00:37:28.679

I was, I feel really amazed, amazed by that. Um um the philosophy, the way of life, the thinking and, and then, you know what, after that, I didn't, I won't, I, I wasn't, I didn't dare to write a piece based on this where before I actually,

00:37:28.810 - 00:37:46.129

I rewrote a piece, several pieces based on the, this, this, the idea. And um um when I didn't study it because I, I listen to the recording and the books, you know, that is the surface, right? I mean, that's interesting. But after, you know, more and

00:37:46.139 - 00:38:02.629

deeper what it is, I was scared. I was like, oh, how can I even try to do that? But gradually, you know, I'm, I'm still, I gradually iii I just have to come to term as well. My, my understanding it is, you know, it's easier to

00:38:02.639 - 00:38:17.469

say I'm so I respect this tradition so much. I don't want to do anything, then you're not doing anything right. That's not helping anybody, right? And so you gradually you have to jump in and say, OK, this is what I think this is what I can

00:38:17.479 - 00:38:37.070

do. This is my approach, everybody can have their own approach, right? And so yeah, so that was a really great experience in Taiwan when I was able to do that. But honestly, just to go to a coffee shop or a tea shop and just seeing people

00:38:37.080 - 00:38:57.870

walk in the black hair speaking language, right? Not mixing the hair in Spanish and, and and English, right? And with all the different hair there you have everybody's black hair speaking Taiwanese or Chinese or English. Even just that it was amazing, amazing learning experience for me.

00:38:58.550 - 00:39:14.120

Um Whenever you came back and started incorporating some of like the philosophy of what you learned in Taiwan, what do you think was like the Western response? And has that Western response changed since then? What's the response? Meaning? What? That's also a good question? What, what's

00:39:14.129 - 00:39:43.399

the response you mean audience or um both kind of audience and the people you were working with in the orchestra? Ah hm I would say um OK, I see what you're saying. I think that I think that um it is true, maybe a little more difficult

00:39:43.409 - 00:39:59.120

for people to understand that because if you're used to progressive of way of thinking and then this thing just sit there for a long time and I was like OK. Come on, I'm ready for changing. Some people loved it. For example, eventually I wrote a piece

00:39:59.129 - 00:40:18.760

that based on, um, a tune. Some people thought that was so amazing because they never thought, never experienced something like that. And some people were like, ok, you know, um, but mostly I think they're the positive ex, uh, if you were talking about and we're not

00:40:18.770 - 00:40:38.659

talking about popular music, right? Because, because my music is not popular music. Um But most people have experience feeling like, OK, that's interesting. I never seen that before. That's fresh, that's different, you know, and, and that's, that's my, my experience and still it's not gonna be

00:40:38.669 - 00:40:57.899

popular, right? Because for people to do that, it's not easy. For example, also, I'm using the traditional, um this piece I use as a traditional musician who does not read, read it that the western music, right? And so, or uh a concert and that's the instruments

00:40:57.909 - 00:41:11.870

from, you know, you have to have a performer to do that, right? So for people to program that it's not easy, right? Um But the other side of that is I feel like a, a composer for me as a composer is like a researcher, you know,

00:41:12.000 - 00:41:31.820

number one researcher and number two is expressive expression for me um expression. This is what I feel, this is what I think this is what I think music can be should be. And um for 21st century, it's no longer, only west or longer east. It's something

00:41:31.830 - 00:41:48.620

that's my, it's also not just bigger one but small one locally. It's me. That's what it represents me. You listen to the piece of music? Ah, I know this, somebody probably have Asian background and that's different than people who only understand Beethoven or something, you know.

00:41:48.899 - 00:42:10.399

So it represents more me, which is more fulfilled, much more fulfilling for me. Um, and then secondly, uh what was I gonna say? It represent uh expression. Oh Research. Research. Yes. Because for me, every time I write something I think about what can I do? That's

00:42:10.409 - 00:42:26.129

different than before, even myself, right? This piece I have done it before. I'm gonna do something different. Now, this time was a little bit more, you know, I don't know what, each time I, so for me it's just like a uh you know, like a scientist

00:42:26.139 - 00:42:42.520

there or, or they research what um what it can be. And for me it's not interesting because there are some people, they have a formula or they, they are successful in one piece and one style and they just keep doing the same thing over again for

00:42:42.530 - 00:43:00.479

me as a composer. That would be really and we did as a composer. So each piece I would be trying to, to do something different. So I, that's how I keep myself um interested in this process. Um Do you think that there's kind of like a

00:43:00.489 - 00:43:21.689

message that you're trying to convey through each piece is what a message and is each message individual or is it all just about like kind of self expression? Um I think that it depends, right? Um Some abstract music is definitely you, you have to this abstractly,

00:43:22.399 - 00:43:41.209

but there are a couple of pieces I actually incorporate uh uh some kind of cultural background in there. For example, the indigenous people's music in Taiwan, I have a film I incorporate with the filmmaker. And so in there, they talk about um the stories of the

00:43:41.219 - 00:44:03.459

legends, you know, of the, the people's uh the story. Um And then also there's a piece about a voice, speaking of a the voice uh helping the the voice of indigenous people to get out, right? And most recently, it's actually, um this is actually my idea

00:44:03.469 - 00:44:19.310

I want to do since 2013 and 14 is I had an encounter with the indigenous people as a, a doctor. This and, and then from that I talk, I, I sort of do my text as a story all about myself and about him, about the social

00:44:19.320 - 00:44:44.520

injustice of, of uh indigenous people and, and also the maybe minority in the United States like Asian Asian Asian community in here, you know, so it's kind of interesting that um the bottom line, I feel this work, it's about empathy about migration, you know, empathy about

00:44:45.419 - 00:45:03.219

uh understand the other people's point of view, you know, for example, when I was in Taiwan, when I met him, he thinks he thought I'm like, oh, you know, coming back on the States, you know, I'm like, so important. Right? And so I'm like a major,

00:45:03.290 - 00:45:20.000

I mean, I'm, I established, um, group but when I come back to the United United States, I am not a status quo. Right? I mean, I, I, if I'm a shepherd school, I'm safe but if I go out of shepherd school, people look at me like,

00:45:20.010 - 00:45:36.729

well where you come from, go back to your own home or something like that, despite the fact, I've been living in this country for 30 some years, more than 30 30 some years. But, and they still see me um as non American, right? So being a

00:45:36.739 - 00:45:54.580

minority and majority in the same time, it's really interesting that you sort of shifted who you are and what you are, right? And so I can see both points of view, both world and so eventually you just need to um empathy, understanding what the other people's

00:45:54.590 - 00:46:16.629

um their, their place, respect their space and understand, you know, we are all the same, we actually have more similarity than this similarity between all of us human being, right? Um And then, um I also step out of this uh um a musician role, right ups

00:46:16.699 - 00:46:36.379

music is really hard to talk about social injustice, right? But, but this sort of theater piece, you know, you can, you, you can sort of incorporate to, to talk about social injustice or our understanding of uh of uh migration and empathy. And so that's my most

00:46:36.389 - 00:46:58.030

recent, most recent um work. And I must say this very, very, very challenging for me because I am again, I'm an abstract composer mostly. And to talk about my story publicly is very, very uncomfortable. I don't want to tell people what I think it's sort of

00:46:58.040 - 00:47:15.639

typical Asian, right? I mean, it's uh um but when you didn't, I grew up in under martial law where um you look at the police, you walk the other way, right? You don't go into the politics situation right now, Taiwan is totally different. They are so

00:47:15.649 - 00:47:39.379

democratic and it was, I was so amazing to see that. Um And uh but um, yeah, to, to, to actually stand there, um using your music to tell people what you think. Um For me, it takes a lot of courage I feel maybe for some people,

00:47:39.389 - 00:47:58.770

I mean, again, also my generation, we are not a social media people, right? My daughter is so like and all this, all the time is not even three, right? Is that right? Um So, um um so that's a, a big step for me. But, and yet

00:47:58.780 - 00:48:16.889

I thought it was, it's a, it's, it's a necessary, it's necessary step. As I said, I always, I look, I look forward to my adventures not repeating myself I look forward to, to working with other people, the theater people or, you know, all the multimedia and

00:48:16.899 - 00:48:31.820

all this thing. And that's exciting for me. So um how did you kind of get into kind of like making films and documentaries as a form of social advocacy? Like how did that all come about? What was your inspiration? Oh, actually, that was the opportunity like

00:48:31.830 - 00:48:52.080

inspiration because uh I have 21 is about Cultural Revolution actually. And the second one is this uh um the injustice of the uh indigenous people returning souls, whether they go home to find their own, their um to right there. You know, the, it's all the filmmaker

00:48:52.090 - 00:49:07.560

come ask me to write, you know, to write for them. That's the situation. The, the second, the, the returning souls. That's because I was uh um I was, when I went to Taiwan, it was a full, I was uh um at the came