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Today is July 25, 2021. My name is Ann Shi, I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today we are documenting the oral history of a first generation Indian and Pakistani artist, Ruhee Maknojia.

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Thank you so much, Ruhee, for joining us today. Thank you for inviting me for the interview. I'm really excited about it. Thank you. So, to start, we're starting from the very beginning.

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When and where were you born? So I was born in Houston, Texas, on, I guess, March 20, 1993. And I was living...

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Well, I, my early childhood was in North Houston. So kind of the area of like Greenspoint Mall, which is today no longer really, as active as it was

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back in the 80s and 90s. Yeah, thank you for sharing. And can you take us through, say, a journey through your neighborhood? And take us through your memories?

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Yeah, sure. So like, I guess North Houston at the time was the area where early immigrants used to go, and it was also the Black neighborhood of like, Houston, or at least maybe that area.

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So when I was in pre-K, kindergarten, that was the area. And the most of the community members there were either East Asian, South Asian, Black Americans who have been here since the time of like, the Civil War,

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slavery, and Black Americans who were early immigrants as well. So those who are coming from North Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, and, or like East Africa.

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so East Africa, North Africa. Can you share with us some of the stories of the neighborhood? Like who are your childhood friends? And what

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were some of your activities back then in the neighborhood? So what's crazy is I actually remember the names of my childhood friends. So one was Robert, who was East Asian. And he was also a first-generation American.

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And my other friend, her name was Muniza, who was also a first-generation American. So the neighborhood was very much full of first-generation children. And I remember

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we used to go to the public pool, and back then, like, I feel like kids ran around a lot more. So it's like, you know, my brother and I, we would ride our bikes in our neighborhood.

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And our parents would just be like, "Okay, as long as you're back by a certain time." They weren't too worried about it. Whereas today, like parents would never let their kids go to like, neighborhood playground on their

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own, at least, especially not in kindergarten, pre-K. So it was a little bit of a different, I guess—vibe? Like, all parents had, like this different type of mentality. And the

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pool was definitely something that we were very excited about. It felt like a type of richness. And I don't even know how to explain it, because we were born into that community. And we were living in that—that lifestyle.

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But we always felt like the pool was a place of, you know, luxury. So as you were talking about the pool, like the swimming pool, do you remember whether some of the, kind of rules at the back of people's head, like regarding races,

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and different races in there, kind of allow—Are they allowed to be in the pool at the same time? Yeah, so like, we never had any issues with racism—at least not in that community.

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Simply because there weren't that many, like white children in the area. It wasn't until my family moved to a different area that like racism came into play.

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And even then, like I didn't fully recognize kind of this idea of silent racism until much later. But growing up in the 90s, it was very much like, oh, like maybe racism existed, but then as a child, I just never

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viewed it. And I think this will definitely come along as I kind of reflect back onto certain moments in life and the things that my parents would say, that made me realize that they probably experienced racism in the 80s and they

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were trying to like protect me and my brother from experiencing a type of racism that they might have. I see. Would you mind sharing some of the stories from your parents? If that's okay.

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Yeah, sure. So like my parents immigrated to the US in the early 80s. So my dad came in 1982, I believe, and my mom came in 1986.

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And I could have some of the years kind of mixed up. But they definitely came after the Civil Rights happened in the US. So the racism they experienced was at sometimes

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direct, and sometimes indirect. And they never fully expressed that when my brother and I were growing up, but they always had in their mind that if our kids are born in the US, then—and they speak perfect English, then

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they can fully assimilate into what is the American Dream. And so they never fully, I guess, believed that they were experiencing racism, but then they also didn't want to—I guess like they recognize it,

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but also didn't want to acknowledge at the same time, in this hopes that everything they've sacrificed to come to a new country and start a new life wasn't for nothing; like it was for something. So it, there is kind of that moment of it.

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Did they share some of the stories, in case accents was part of their process of assimilation or other stories regarding assimilation? Yeah, so I guess, like one story that my dad had told me,

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was that early on when he came to the US. He, like, not just themselves, but other early immigrants who were like him, were trying to earn money, trying to fit into

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America and American life, and they would always be under paid for everything, and they would be overworked for everything. So even when they were citizens of the USA—like they immigrated, they became citizens, they're

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always underpaid, and they always felt like they couldn't speak up about it. Or, you know, you can't exactly hire a lawyer, because they felt like it was in a way an attack against the country that they've worked so hard to become

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part of. And, like their stories were, my dad would work, like, almost 20 hours continuously, come home, barely sleep, go back to work. And it was very labor intensive, like there were—he did multiple different types of

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jobs. So he worked in a gas station, but then he also did any type of odd jobs that he could get. So it was that mentality of if you work hard enough, then you'll have a good life kind of idea.

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But also, you know, if you're working that hard, you should at least be paid minimum wage for it. So that's, that's like one example of a form of discrimination. And then my mom also gave an example

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of—she went to a conference, and I'm not sure exactly what type of conference it was, but in the culture that she grew up in, if you have, if you're like eating something, it's not polite to just eat, you have to offer it to everybody at the table.

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So she offered food to everybody around her. And they were like, "Oh, like, we don't want it." Like, "We're going to take care of ourselves, you take care of yourself." And so it was a very direct reply that someone gave to her.

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And she found that to be very shocking, she would assume somebody would be like, "Oh, no, thank you. I don't want—I'm not that hungry." But it was a very direct reply. And when she told me that story, I also

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I-I felt like it was kind of a form of discrimination that she faced without it being necessarily how she looks; but a silent form of someone being harsh with her, because of how she looks without being as direct.

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Thank you for sharing their stories. Can you talk a little bit more about the family values, bring—being brought up in a Indian and Pakistani family background? Yes, sure. So my, like dad,

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he's from India. My mom grew up in Pakistan. And they tend to have similar family values, but there are some differences in the manner in how they

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speak about things, that you really get to see that they're coming from two different cultures. But some of the values that my brother and I grew up with was, you know, you work hard, and it's only through hard work that

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you can achieve things. So it's like, and that might not necessarily be true. It's like, there are many factors that lead to someone being successful and not just

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working hard. But that was something that they really felt strongly about. And they felt like it through education, you can get ahead in life; and they felt like through hard work, you can get ahead in life.

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And so those were kind of the values that they put in. And then it was also about being a good person, not stealing, not lying, because those are

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also, like things that are, like,—what do you call it—ethically and morally wrong. And I think a lot of cultures have that belief.

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It's not just Indian and Pakistani, but many cultures are like, yeah, "Don't steal, don't lie, don't like, hurt others." And so those are kind of the basic ideas. But I think this idea of education and hard work were kind of the,

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very important things. And then also, religion played an important role, too. So they were like, to have faith, to have, to

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remain a believer in one God. So that was something that was important to them. And I think their perception on this idea of religion

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has expanded quite a bit over the years, because they aren't as stringent about this idea that they're more about like, you know, there are many ways of believing in things, and they can all kind of lead to something great, or a type of

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enlightenment. So that—their idea has changed. And before that used to be a lot more strict about it. So those are some of the values and ethics that we grew up with. I'm also wondering if your parents have spoke about their American Dream,

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and whether that has been part of your upbringing as well? Yes, so they haven't directly spoken about the American Dream, but I've always had an understanding of what my

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dad viewed the American Dream as. So for him, it was very much you know, have your own home, be able to pay for your own bills, cars. You know, be able to pay for not only your own kids, but his parents

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as well. So for him, it was also important to take care of my grandparents, to take care of us, like the kids. So that was definitely his

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American Dream. For my mom, it was, I think, a little bit different. So for her, it was also, you know, you, she wanted a stable life. So early on, when my parents were married, my dad had to work all the time, it was a very stressful time.

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Like, we were in a household of eight people. So it was like my grandparents, my aunt, my older brother, me, my mom, dad, and my great grandmother, all living in one place. And so like, it's quite a stressful time.

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So my mom would also work full time, my dad would be working full time, and then they're trying to raise a family. So for her, her American Dream was, you know, having a more stable life, having time

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to enjoy some of her hobbies, having time to pursue an education to learn, and to expand her kind of knowledge base. I'm also wondering, since India and Pakistan have

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very kind of a tricky relationship politically, I'm wondering if their marriage were kind of a little bit provocative in terms of their culture? Yeah, so I mean, it might have some funny stories about it, too.

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So it's not common to have one parent be from India, one parent be from Pakistan. I have a few friends whose parents are like that, but it's very rare. And my

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mom's parents did not have any problems with her getting married to my dad and my dad's parents had no problem with him getting married to my mom, so it was a bit easier for them to get married.

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But, and they actually got married in the US, so they got engaged when my mom was in Pakistan, and then they got married in Houston. And that, there were other Indian and Pakistani

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families who found their relationship to be a bit of a surprise. They'd be like, oh, like, this isn't normal. And my mom told me one story of, when they were—when my brother and I were very young, my dad had to work late.

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And she was home alone with both of us. And they had a neighbors across the street who were Pakistani. And I guess they stopped by to drop off food, or just to say hello, I

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don't know why. But when they stopped by and the Pakistani husband asked, like, "Oh, where's your husband?" And my mom was like, "Oh, he's working." He got very upset. And he was like, "How can your husband leave

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you alone?" And like, "with two young kids," and he just became very upset. And he was like, "all Indians are like this." Like, "you can't trust them." So like, there,

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there was kind of this internal community strife. But I guess like, for Americans, it's not that different that we like, oh, both parents are Indian-looking. So they don't

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really see the difference between my parents. My brother, and I see it all the time, because of their mannerisms of how they talk, and how they communicate with others is quite different. Yeah, that's a very interesting story.

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And also for South Asian women, mostly are presumed—assumed to be stay-home moms, and your mom works full time, right? Isn't that unusual? Well, she worked full time when we were younger.

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Today, she doesn't work full time anymore. Today, she's a stay-at-home mom. But like, when we were younger, I don't think she had much of a choice. She had to work because money was always tight.

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And my parents had worked really hard to show my brother and I that everything is fine. So my brother and I never grew up learning that money was difficult to come by. We always

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just grew up feeling like this is a normal life. But like, and it wasn't until my brother and I were a little bit older that my mom was like, okay, we can, I can finally, like, I've achieved my American Dream.

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Wow, that's fascinating, and also really admiring. And can we also talk a little bit about your name? Yeah, if it has any metaphor behind it, and we'd love to... Yeah, so like, my name it comes from, it's like,

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Pakistani, Iranian, Indian, then it also has meanings in Arabic as well. So it's quite diverse. And it has its, like place, quite like sprinkled through Asia. So like in Urdu, "Ruhee"

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can mean like “soul of higher spiritual value.” And in Arabic, it means like “my soul.” And in Farsi, it's also connects back to the soul and its stage of like being elevated.

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So yeah, it, it also kind of connects back to that religious moment that I talked about, or spirituality and the important role it plays in growing up. So yeah. Yeah, that's

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fascinating. And also you grew up speaking English and French and five other South Asian languages... languages? Yeah, so um, I actually grew up speaking English, Urdu and Hindi at

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home. So my grandparents, they will speak in Gujrati. My mom will speak in Urdu. And my, like, and Urdu and Hindi are kind of the same language. But they're very subtle differences throughout or like some that

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vocabulary differences; and they're both written differently. And then of course, I grew up speaking En- speaking in English, because that was the language of academia. And then, French I learned in undergrad.

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That's fascinating. And can you also share with us some recipes or any of the foods that you remember eating a lot during your upbringing? Yeah, so like, one food that we

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oftentimes at night, or like if you're feeling kind of sick or under the weather, is this food called "kitri". And kitri is like made of lentil beans and different types of beans put together and they're

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like, cooked in a slow cooker pot. And I mean, I'll definitely add the recipe itself for you in the email. And because I know you guys talked about starting, like having an archive for that.

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And another recipe that I like, one food I absolutely love eating is "nihari", which is like this beef or goat stew, so it could either be made from goat or beef. And it's this stew that's full of like different spices

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and if you eat it with this bread called "naan". So those are probably my two favorite dishes. Oh, that's so much appreciated. We'd love to archive more recipes.

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Yeah, those are two that I will definitely send because I love both of them. And I think it's really something that could be beneficial for all people too. Because really, it's like a superfood.

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Like, if you're feeling a little bit under the weather, you eat it, and the next day, you'll feel great. And next, when you talk about you grew up speaking English, did you start speaking English with your parents?

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Or was that from school? It was from speaking with my older brother. So my older brother, when he went to school, he did not know English at all.

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So he had to kind of learn in school. Whereas for me, my older brother would always speak to me in English. So he and I still only speak to each other in English; whereas my parents, we never speak in English.

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We only speak in Urdu or Hindi. And same with my grandparents like we'll never speak in English, it would just be a mess if we try . And what were some of the childhood games that you play with your brother

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or...? So like with my brother, like I remember—I don't even know if we would call it a game, but we would always fight for the remote control, and whoever had the remote control controls the channel that you can watch.

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And then we would have like, my brother was a big fan of like, video games. So he would always give me a fake controller to play and he would play on the real controller. But it was like Nintendo, Mario Kart.

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There's like Mortal Kombat. So these are kind of like the games we were playing when we were growing up. So that's like a pretty American childhood? It's, uh, yeah, quite quite an American childhood.

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But with my parents and grandparents, we played different games. So we played this game called "Carrom Board". And it's like a square shaped board. And the surface is

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quite smooth. And you have these like, counters that you can flick with your finger to get it into like these corner holes. And that's like an Indian Pakistani game. And we would also play “Snakes and Ladders” with my parents

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and "Parcheesi", which is an Indian British game. And I'm not sure if Parcheesi came from India or if it came from like the British Empire, eventually coming into India. But those are kind of like three games we play with

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my parents. That's really interesting. If you have a picture of the game we'd love to see that, archive it as well. Yeah, I will definitely send you, like pictures of it as well. Because I think, like they actually sell Snakes and

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Ladders at like Walmart now. And Parcheesi is a game that you can find but not everyone plays it. But I'll definitely send like the carrom board, a picture of the carrom board and all of that as well. Thank you.

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And after going to school, I guess, from a very kind of South Asian family, did you come back from school and kind of interact with your parents differently? Do you remember? I do think I

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like once I started going to school, my interactions with my parents slowly started to change. So when I was younger pre-K, kindergarten, first grade, I was very much thinking

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similar to how my parents would think. But as I got older, I would like, I often wouldn’t invite friends over to my home, because like most of my friends

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who were white, white, wouldn't fully understand this idea of like, eight people living in one very small house, and like living on top of each other. So I felt like, it—I

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don't know if it was, like, for what reason fully, that it was like, I don't feel comfortable inviting my friends over. But they could also be because, I wouldn't even have my own room, like we'd be sharing rooms as well.

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So there was this kind of idea of like privacy, like having, being able to be fully free to say what I want and do what I want. That concept i-it fully exist, it was very much about the unit, not necessarily about the individual.

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So there was that difference. And whereas when I was in first grade, kindergarten, that's not something that would come into my mind. But when my family moved from North Houston to the

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Spring area, so like out, further out north, on the outskirts of Houston. That, like we moved into a very white neighborhood where every family was kind of the same. It's always, you know, one mom, one dad, two

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kids, and that's like, the unit that I would keep coming across in all of my friendships. And my family was a bit different. So there was a little bit of like, change

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in how I perceived life. After the move to a more white neighborhood, is it different interacting with your friends? Like did you remember

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any of the encounters? So I think like, I began to, began to notice that I like was different from my friends around third or fourth grade. So like my parents, we moved to a different neighborhood when that was in the first

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grade. And their whole reasoning for moving further out North was because they wanted to provide my brother and I with a better education. So they looked up, like which schools were better.

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And they moved and made that move for that reason, which is quite, like, quite amazing on their part, as well, because they were making a longer commute to,

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to go to work. And so they're making quite a sacrifice by making that move. And it was like, maybe three or four years after we moved, when I was maybe in the fourth grade, I know,

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like remember washing my hands after going to the playground. And I look up in the mirror and I'm like, "Oh, I look darker skin than my classmates do."

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And that was like the first realization I had that I looked different from them. Before then, like I knew, in the back of my head that I'm Indian and Pakistani, like my family is different. But it was, that was like the moment where I

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recognized the color of my skin was also different. And slowly steering towards your current role as an artist, I'm curious what's your first moment of making art? Oh, that's actually a tough one.

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Like, I mean, first moment of making our probably goes all the way back to like pre-K, where we would have art classes. And I remember we did a—like a

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small clay pot exercise. All in pre-K, and it was such it's so exciting and being able to work with that my hand. Yeah, so that's probably like the earliest

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memory I have of like making something. And what has your relationship with art been since then, and like till now? What have...

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Oh, yeah, so I guess my relationship has changed quite a bit. So I've always enjoyed art, making art. Like throughout, like, even in middle school, I took art as an elective; in high school, I

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took art as an elective. And it was something that I felt like I fit into. So I didn't really see myself as being all that great with science or math. And so that's kind of like my mindset.

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I was like, "This is just something I'm good at." So I like kind of being participating in it. But I never really fully expected to become an artist as a professional, as a profession, or as that

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becoming my career, which is I think like... Sometimes I think about I, myself, become surprised that I became an artist. So yeah. And what– how has your education experience been?

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Like you went on to study studio art and Middle Eastern Studies at the UT Austin, and then at Columbia University for your MFA. Were there any kind of

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critical decision making moments for you to pursue that path? Yeah, so like, after I, like, once I was in the 12th grade, I think a lot of American students can have come across this, like, "What do we do next?" kind of thing.

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And everyone is kind of like, you know, "Do I want to become, like, pursue my career as an engineer?" "Do I want to pursue, to become a doctor?" And I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. So I was like, "Hey, art is this thing that I enjoy.

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Let me just apply for, to be an artist." Like, "Let me apply into studio arts." And when I was accepted to UT Austin, as a visual arts major, I was like, "Okay, I'm in this thing now." And it was almost like I was still trying to

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figure out if I want-wanted to be in that career path. And I was like, "Well, if I don't enjoy it, I can always switch majors. And we'll see how it goes along." And in that kind of route, I also found an interest in history.

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So I added Middle Eastern Studies as a second major. And then I also had this interest in language. So I was like, "Okay, let me just take French classes." Because I took it for four

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years in high school, and I want to just learn the language, because I wanted those four years to have a purpose and a meaning. So I was like, I don't want to just go through a high school class that I worked really hard in just to

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give up on the language. And so I took French as a foreign language in like at UT. And it was kind of like I was spreading out into many different things, just trying to find myself and trying to

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figure out, like where I belong. And in that kind of moment of taking one class in a different class, it began to shape and form the way I view the world. And I began to view history differently.

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So that was where I first learned about the Civil War. So like, when I was in high school, we learned about the Civil War as a war, like

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American Civil War about States rights. And when I went to college, the American Civil War was presented as an issue of slavery, and, like an issue of how we understand human rights.

00:33:18.670 - 00:33:36.320

And so my perspective of how history was presented to me that changed, my perspective of how I viewed my own heritage was changing. And I don't think that would have happened if I just stuck to the visual arts and all of those things kind

00:33:36.320 - 00:33:56.360

of moved into my art practice, which really helped me shape and form—helped shape and form me into the career path I'm in now. I'm wondering if your parents were supportive of you pursuing art

00:33:57.000 - 00:34:09.040

and Middle Eastern Studies? Because I understand as probably Asian parents, they are very driven for their kids to study probably medicine, become doctors or lawyers.

00:34:10.550 - 00:34:26.900

So yeah, like I mean, that's actually quite true. It's like a lot of Asian parents in general, like whether we're South Asian, Southeast Asian, like any kind of Asian world, like, there is this kind of desire that your kids

00:34:26.900 - 00:34:38.240

become doctors and dentists. And what's crazy, is I think I was much more harsh on myself to get a good education than I think my parents were.

00:34:38.730 - 00:34:51.770

So like, from a young age, my parents would be like, "You will get a good, good education, because that's the way you achieve the American dream." But they never fully clarified that, they don't care what education we get, as long as it's a good one.

00:34:52.490 - 00:35:09.470

So I would always tell my mom, it was like, "Oh, I'm pursuing the arts and like, how am I going to make money in this career? Like I'm never gonna be like, how am I gonna support myself?" My family and my mom was like, "Who cares, you just have to

00:35:09.500 - 00:35:25.250

be like, you just have to enjoy what you're learning and be the best that-that you can be." And that's, that's kind of like, that was kind of a surprise for me because I didn't expect my parents to be so

00:35:25.250 - 00:35:38.290

supportive, but they've always been very supportive. They're like, as long as I'm trying my best and trying to achieve the best that I can. And they've always been excited about it.

00:35:38.290 - 00:35:56.280

Yeah, that's fascinating. And what are some of the extracurricular activities that you're a part of in college? Okay, um, not very many.

00:35:56.540 - 00:36:12.000

So, like, the, I was very much the type of person that was like, go to class, go home study, go to class. But I always enjoyed kind of jumping into things.

00:36:12.840 - 00:36:27.470

So whenever I would be like, walking from, like, one class to another, and I saw something going on, I would always ask like, "Hey, what's going on over here?" And they'll be like, "Oh, there's, there's like, dance competition, that's gonna

00:36:27.470 - 00:36:38.330

be happening. And so we're signing up people for that." I'll be like, "Oh, let me see, like, what's going on here." And let me see if I want to like participate. I never participated in the dance competition.

00:36:38.360 - 00:36:55.110

But I did participate in a talent show, where, like, so when I was studying Middle Eastern Studies, my class, like some of my classmates, and I participated in a singing and dancing competition where we sung a song in

00:36:55.500 - 00:37:08.310

Arabic; which is, like, a bit crazy now that I think about it. Because none of us were that great in like the language itself. It was like our first semester studying it.

00:37:08.590 - 00:37:23.600

So I was definitely the person that would kind of just jump in rather than participate it as in any type of club or group, it was very much like, oh, there's this like, thing that's happening, I can sign up for let me like, join.

00:37:26.730 - 00:37:41.820

Thank you for sharing. And, and then you move to New York for your studies at Columbia. Was, was that the first experience leaving Houston for you? No, not my first experience.

00:37:41.930 - 00:37:57.730

So when after I finished, well, in between my studies at UT Austin, I actually left UT Austin and moved to France. And so that's where I ended up really learning French, and I lived in the south of

00:37:57.840 - 00:38:13.490

France and Aix-en-Provence. And that was my first experience of really leaving my bubble around my family, my community, and even the environment and world that I knew.

00:38:14.770 - 00:38:30.000

So that was around 2013 through 2014. So I really stayed there for a full year, and tried to immerse myself into the culture. And then I returned back to Austin, I

00:38:30.000 - 00:38:47.720

enrolled back into UT and all of my different career paths that I was trying to still figure out. And I think that's when I became much more serious about making art, and about using the

00:38:47.720 - 00:39:06.910

experiences I was going through to try and tell a story, to try and kind of, I guess, build a narrative of my experiences, and also the things that I've learned. Yeah, that's

00:39:06.910 - 00:39:23.140

fascinating. Can you talk a little bit more about your period of life in France? Yeah, so like, one thing I always found interesting when I was—when I traveled to France, is that there was

00:39:23.310 - 00:39:37.870

always a fascination that people had. They were like, "You're American, and you're Indian." And it was kind of like, a lot of people in Provence were-had always experienced white Americans traveling to France; but they had

00:39:37.870 - 00:39:53.140

never experienced like, in, South—like South Asian American traveling to France—and they had also experienced like Asian Americans traveling to France. Like, by Asian Americans I mean, like East Asian, but

00:39:53.140 - 00:40:06.230

never South Asian. So there was kind of this special fascination; they were like, "Oh, like we've never seen an Indian, like, American before." And so, and I don't think it

00:40:06.230 - 00:40:23.900

came from a place of racism, I think it came from a place of curiosity, of like surprise, of, like you know, "We-we knew that you existed, but it's still a surprise that you do." So that was kind of a fun

00:40:24.490 - 00:40:39.760

little experience for me. That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about your life in New York and how New York has impacted you as both an artist and then a person?

00:40:40.820 - 00:40:58.760

Yeah, so I think New York was probably the most surprising culture shock that I went through, which is unexpected. Because I went all the way to France, and that culture wasn't as shocking to me as New York City

00:40:59.160 - 00:41:16.410

was. Like the, like politics of New York City is very different from the politics I'd grown up with in Texas. And I think—or like, at least in Houston and Austin, I think things were a bit more nuanced, when it came to how

00:41:16.410 - 00:41:29.810

people talked about race, how people talked about different cultures and heritage and things that they're uncomfortable with. Whereas in New York—New York City, people were much more direct

00:41:30.480 - 00:41:41.840

in how they talk about race, culture and heritage. And that was very surprising. I felt like I didn't have to work hard to assimilate and be more American.

00:41:42.240 - 00:41:58.580

I felt like it, quote unquote, what is American—but like, I didn't have to, I felt like I'd have to work as hard to make friends or get people to understand me. It almost felt like New York, New Yorkers

00:41:58.580 - 00:42:15.010

were very used to, like who Indian Americans are and what their culture is like. Whereas in Houston, I felt like I had to spend a lot of time explaining myself or who, what my family life might look like, what my, like the music

00:42:15.130 - 00:42:32.760

that I listen to might sound like, whereas—so there was kind of that, like, it was a quite a big shift for me to experience. That's really interesting. And what are some of the community that you associate yourself with during

00:42:33.070 - 00:42:48.500

college at Columbia? So, like, what, while I was doing my MFA, I feel like I really built—I didn't necessarily build it, but I was like,

00:42:48.500 - 00:43:04.520

kind of put into a community of other artists and a diverse cohort of artists. And the way that like MFA students were selected was very much with this idea of diversity in

00:43:04.560 - 00:43:16.900

mind, of artists who work in the diverse art practice but also who are racially diverse or culturally-culturally diverse or religiously diverse. And we were all kind of put

00:43:16.900 - 00:43:28.580

into this one program of like 26 students. And so that was really my community at that time. And it-it was a big bubble. It was like we're living in a bubble of-of,

00:43:31.010 - 00:43:48.330

if you could put the best, like if you could put the most diverse people together, that was that bubble. Like it was like someone hand-picked and chose, like, how can we get the most different types of people, put them together in a room and what will

00:43:48.330 - 00:44:04.150

happen? And that's kind of like the world that we were, that I was experiencing. And I'm curious, how has you started to build your artistic style and language?

00:44:04.630 - 00:44:19.090

And as you were speaking of the diversity of culture and heritage in your student groups, did you kind of, kind of pick up any style, or get inspired, in terms of styles from other students?

00:44:20.080 - 00:44:35.070

Oh, definitely. So you know, like, whenever, like, I think one of the things I really began to question a lot was this idea of appropriation or cultural appropriation.

00:44:36.600 - 00:44:50.010

And, like, I've always kind of believed that, it's a good thing when someone sees something that in the culture I've grown up with, and they find it beautiful, and they want to like

00:44:50.010 - 00:45:06.670

utilize it to kind of honor that tradition. And then I've also come across like, you know, people who want to utilize it and steal an idea. And so that's like something that I had to really like grapple

00:45:06.670 - 00:45:19.070

with, especially when you're in a community that's very diverse, that's very vocal, that's very, like, very aware of tradition, aesthetics, and how to

00:45:19.140 - 00:45:32.500

use those aesthetics. And sorry, I like, forgot a little bit about the question as well, or like, the direction I was going with, what I was trying to say.

00:45:33.830 - 00:45:45.890

No worries at all. I think we were just talking about how, like, you and your student peers blend? And, or the heritage... Oh, yes.

00:45:45.890 - 00:46:00.610

But I guess like, what I was trying to get at was, I became very inspired by my classmates. And sometimes I would want to utilize certain color, like, looks that come from certain parts of the world.

00:46:00.610 - 00:46:17.810

So for example, I feel very inspired by like, the aesthetics that come out of Nigeria, the aesthetics that come out of Kenya, the aesthetics that come out of Tanzania, and there's also this huge Indian community that also lives in

00:46:17.810 - 00:46:29.900

those parts of the world. And so I became very inspired by this idea of wanting to blend like Indian and North and East African traditions together.

00:46:30.150 - 00:46:46.740

And I always kind of was left with, "I don't know if that's okay to do." Like, I don't know if that's the best, or most respectful thing to do. But yeah, so like, I think like, the more—and I think

00:46:46.740 - 00:47:03.690

that if I was an undergrad student, I would have got–got like, without a doubt, I would have tried to blend these three things together. But as a graduate students, and being like, part of in a cohort that thinks about many

00:47:03.690 - 00:47:19.750

different things and what it means, I felt like it was much more respectful to not try to blend these things together, but rather learn from them, and utilize philosophical ideas

00:47:20.280 - 00:47:39.730

with the aesthetics that I've grown up with. Yeah, as we were speaking of cultural appropriation, do you think the idea of respect might also sometimes deter some creativity?

00:47:40.900 - 00:47:57.110

Oh, yeah, definitely. Like, without a doubt, like, I do think that sometimes people become very fearful of wanting to stay respectful of a certain culture, that they won't utilize certain

00:47:57.110 - 00:48:10.550

aesthetic choices for themselves. Because they'll be like, "Oh, I don't want to get stuck in that backlash, like, I don't want a public backlash for the things I do." And I'm guilty of this as well.

00:48:10.800 - 00:48:26.430

Like, there are things that I won't, like, try in my own practice, or I'll try it on my own by myself, and then be like, "I don't think this is that respectful so I don't want anyone to see this." And I

00:48:26.430 - 00:48:45.810

won't like share it with anyone. But sometimes I do wish that, like, I do wish that people would be willing to be a little more daring. And I, sometimes I do wish that people would be

00:48:45.910 - 00:48:57.780

willing to be a little more accepting also. So it's like a give-and-take kind of situation. Like, for example, there was a time where I would see what like, you know, people who are not

00:48:57.840 - 00:49:11.090

Indian having henna on their hands. And I'll be like, oh, like, "That's such an appropriation of taking henna and putting out their hands." But then I thought about it, I felt like, "Well, this is actually quite beautiful to have

00:49:11.090 - 00:49:26.480

someone take a piece of my culture and utilize it because they think it's beautiful." I feel like there's something really nice about that. So, yeah, I think, I think it's a lot more complex than “Should

00:49:26.480 - 00:49:39.550

appropriation happen or not happen?” I think sometimes it would be good if we allow—like, actually a good example would be the song Menon that was very famous.

00:49:39.550 - 00:49:54.330

Like the music video, where the music video takes place in like India. And that's like one example where it's like, I really enjoyed the song, and the video itself is like a form of

00:49:54.330 - 00:50:09.790

appropriation. But I don't know if I necessarily hate the appropriation. I felt like they utilize, like, looked at something beautiful and went to utilize it. Yeah, that's fascinating.

00:50:10.450 - 00:50:25.770

And also, when speaking of artistic influences, I'm not sure if we covered this, but your parents weren't, like, influenced in art, right? Like, yeah.

00:50:26.390 - 00:50:43.120

So my parents weren't as influenced in the arts. My mom is much more interested in culture, but in a different way. So my dad is very much into movies, songs,

00:50:43.170 - 00:50:57.970

films; whereas my mom is much more into literature, and po-like poetry. And I went towards the visual . Yeah, so how did that—since your work is deeply rooted

00:50:58.030 - 00:51:16.690

from the Indian and Pakistani culture, how did that kind of attach-attachment to culture and heritage came from? I think it actually came from my like education and the classes I took, when I was in undergrad.

00:51:16.910 - 00:51:31.360

So it really came from my professors at UT Austin, who were teaching history and culture, and who really opened up my eyes about how I could think about history and the sacrifices people

00:51:31.360 - 00:51:46.060

make in the past, in order to get to where they are today. So like, you know, I had like growing up in the US, I had my own biases, and even forms of discriminations within myself.

00:51:46.060 - 00:51:59.920

So like, I would look at other Indian Pakistani kids who might not have been born in the US. And they might have talked a little bit differently, and lool-like dressed a little bit differently, and I

00:51:59.920 - 00:52:16.010

would feel a sense of like superiority to that. And then it wasn't until I was, like, be, like, learned about history and this idea of immigration, I realized, like, if I look at the, like other

00:52:16.010 - 00:52:31.020

students as, as if I am better, then other people looked at my parents in the same way that they are better than my parents. And so like, and that really began to change, like made me realize that I myself and being

00:52:31.600 - 00:52:48.210

like discriminatory towards others, like and-I'm part of the system that wants me to look down on different people who are different than me. And, like, really having teachers to kind of open my eyes to-up to that

00:52:49.340 - 00:53:07.270

system that's been created around me, and that culture that's been created around me, really made me want to work in a field that can really encourage people to have difficult

00:53:07.270 - 00:53:20.030

conversations. And I feel like visual arts can do that, where someone might look at an image and be like, "Oh, that looks beautiful." And they might start talking about the work or they might share the work with someone else.

00:53:20.030 - 00:53:35.140

And someone might say, like, "Oh, yeah, this symbolism is actually a violent symbol. And this is why because this is the history that came out of it." Or somebody would be like, yeah, this flower has this very deep meaning.

00:53:35.690 - 00:53:44.830

And this is the reason it has that meaning, and then they're able to kind of jump into this new culture. And the visual arts can kind of bring that about.

00:53:44.830 - 00:54:01.690

And so I think it was when professors kind of opened up my eyes that encouraged me to go into the visual arts and try and use that form to open up other people's eyes.

00:54:05.250 - 00:54:22.620

And what in your mind, is a painting that is, that you're satisfied with? That is a good painting? Oh, that's such a hard question. I think. Like, I think it's this

00:54:22.620 - 00:54:38.900

idea of like, when I'm working on something, and I get to a point where I'm just like, there's a satisfaction feeling that comes from completing something. So it's like—maybe you've had it too where you've worked on something for a

00:54:38.900 - 00:54:52.590

long time, like maybe it's a paper that you're writing or a project that you're working on. Then you finally complete it, and you kind of feel like, "Yes, like it's done." And it's kind of that way in the arts, like you're working on something,

00:54:52.590 - 00:55:05.600

you're working on something and then you kind of get this feeling of like, and you'll be like, "Okay, I'm done." Like it doesn't need anymore. And that's, that's kind of where the, that's when I know like, "Okay.

00:55:06.240 - 00:55:23.170

It's-it's at a place where it can go out into the world." And what is the, your opinion on the contemporary South Asian arts, and its relationship with, say, the

00:55:23.170 - 00:55:41.780

traditional Southern Asian art? I think that there's just so much happening in contemporary South Asian arts that's extremely exciting. And I think that there's also a lot of crossover

00:55:42.550 - 00:55:57.700

happening where people who are not South Asian are taking an interest in contemporary South Asian art, which I feel like, wasn't really a conversation happening in the 90s, or maybe even early 2000s.

00:55:58.150 - 00:56:15.070

But since like the mid 2000s, and then, like, in the mid 2000s, I mean, like, somewhere around 2008, to like, today, there's been a lot more conversation about not just South Asian arts, but South Asian art, but like

00:56:15.070 - 00:56:33.560

just arts that include diverse voices. And so I feel very hopeful about, you know, contemporary art and the direction that's going in. I remember seeing it on your profile that

00:56:34.970 - 00:56:49.300

you dealt with death at a relatively young age, has art been part of the process to help you deal with it? I-I do think so.

00:56:49.300 - 00:57:04.930

So like, you know, I think that all people can kind of relate to this concept and idea of death. Like, you know, whether it's like a friend, a parent or grandparent, like everyone has someone they love, and

00:57:05.050 - 00:57:26.320

everyone goes through this process of like birth and death. So I think art does play an important role in that too, because I think it was a big driver for me to keep making work. So it's like, yeah, like, what encourages you to keep

00:57:26.930 - 00:57:43.620

producing art is also a very important factor as well. And it's not just about making one work of art, but it's also about a body of works. And like many works of arts and a body and a collection of art, that are speaking

00:57:43.620 - 00:58:04.000

to each other and building off of each other to create a narrative. And so, yeah, I think like the concept of death has—have pushed me to keep producing work. Fascinating. And I also learned that you deal with a

00:58:04.000 - 00:58:18.280

lot of kind of contraries in your work. For example, external and the internal, and trying to balance the kind of the binaries. And you also mentioned, you're trying to deal with

00:58:18.280 - 00:58:37.160

the esoteric and exoteric sides. And can you speak a little bit about how, like the kind of the opposites and the contradictory sides in your life, including dealing with life and death, has been an inspiration for you?

00:58:38.070 - 00:58:52.070

Yeah, sure. So like, a lot of times when I'm talking about my work, it's very much about the, like you said, the binaries like the internal, external, the esoteric

00:58:53.450 - 00:59:08.120

and exoteric, and the whole idea behind it is about trying to, like, find a balance between the two, or existing in a threshold space between two worlds. And also kind of

00:59:09.430 - 00:59:29.330

acknowledging that just because I believe in one thing doesn't make it the right thing at the same time. So it's like, I might, you know, be angry at a person and say one thing, but that doesn't mean

00:59:29.400 - 00:59:42.220

I believe in that same thing at the same time. So I might be like, you know, don't steal from this person, but at the same time out of anger, I might say, like, "Oh, this person deserves to be robbed." But it goes against my

00:59:42.720 - 00:59:58.250

ethics and values to steal. So it's kind of this idea of, you know, like, there's this idea of like, religious belief does not always fit in

00:59:58.370 - 01:00:13.520

reality. Like in logic, in science. And then science and logic and reality might not fit into, like religious stories that are, that appear to be magical and made up.

01:00:13.980 - 01:00:29.260

And so trying to balance between these two spaces and respecting spirituality, and at the same time respecting science and logic. And there's this idea that you can respect both, even if they don't

01:00:29.950 - 01:00:49.450

logically fit together, or even if they don't agree with each other. And what do you intend to speak to the audience? And how would you want to make them feel after seeing your work? I would really hope that,

01:00:50.470 - 01:01:09.470

like when somebody goes through and sees the work, they can feel kind of stuck on the fringes, not necessarily knowing exactly what to believe, but kind of being presented with a

01:01:11.850 - 01:01:21.870

idea, and not really knowing between what is right and what is wrong, or what is the exact thing that's meant to be said. So sometimes

01:01:21.910 - 01:01:35.580

I'll paint like a figure that looks like it's dancing. And it’ll have like a mask on. And like, you know, and I'm not really trying to tell my audience like, "Hey, wear a mask." I'm just showing a

01:01:35.580 - 01:01:48.080

figure that's dancing that-that has—that has a mask on. And it's really left for the audience to interpret why a figure might be dancing through a pandemic-type setting, why they might be wearing a mask.

01:01:48.410 - 01:02:02.410

Or are they like, what they're trying to say? So it's very much like I want an audience to kind of go through, see something, and feel like they aren't being told to think of a certain way, but presented an idea, and left to interpret that

01:02:02.410 - 01:02:19.500

idea. Speaking of the pandemic and the masks, I'm-I’m also curious as you had series of works during the pandemic dealing with the COVID, like this, yeah, the human

01:02:20.280 - 01:02:32.680

conditions during COVID and the election year. And I can't help realizing that people were with their eyes closed and smiling, in whatever conditions they're in, like along

01:02:32.680 - 01:02:44.640

with your other series of work. What were you trying to say, with the facial emotions of closed eyes, and people in like a Zen or very peaceful, in various conditions?

01:02:46.160 - 01:03:01.470

So I'm actually surprised you noticed that the eyes were closed because you're the first person to ever notice that. I actually make all of my figures with their eyes closed. I can't remember, I think there was only once where I had a

01:03:01.580 - 01:03:16.370

figure with their eyes open. And it's always this idea that when we're living our life, and going through any type of adversity-adversary, that like we've never faced

01:03:16.880 - 01:03:34.930

before, it's kind of like everyone's eyes are closed. What I mean, nobody really knows how to navigate an uncertain space, and everyone's trying to just do their best to get through it. And that was kind of my understanding of how I looked at

01:03:34.930 - 01:03:49.960

COVID, and how I looked at the election year. It was kind of like everyone was faced with this new phenomenon, like pandemics have happened before in human history, and elections have happened before in American history.

01:03:50.380 - 01:04:05.080

But this particular pandemic, and this particular election felt different, at least to me. And so it was kind of these characters dancing through this space, that felt

01:04:05.230 - 01:04:21.220

foreign, that felt uncertain, and they were making choices. And they just don't know what the end result will be; and I as an artist didn't know what the end result was going to be. So I didn't know who was going to be elected,

01:04:23.210 - 01:04:36.910

or what the end result of the election would be or what the end result of this pandemic will be like, we're still living in a pandemic. So in many ways, it's still like these characters in my

01:04:36.910 - 01:04:53.470

mind navigating completely blind to where they're going or what they should be doing. And what are the mindset or the conditions that you're usually in when you're making work?

01:04:54.460 - 01:05:04.680

Like in various mediums, like what are you seeing? What are you like listening to? And what kind of vibe in the room that in your studio that you tried to create?

01:05:05.600 - 01:05:21.540

Yeah, so like, I don't know if many people realize this, but making art can be quite lonely. So it's like when you're working in your studio, you're kind of there by yourself, unless you're maybe sharing your

01:05:21.540 - 01:05:35.690

studio, then you might eventually get angry at your studio mate because they're making too much noise or whatever it may be. But like, you know, the process of making art can be a very, like, you're

01:05:35.690 - 01:05:52.170

stuck in your head, and you're just listening to your own thoughts. And so, I do try to kind of play music in the background, or I'll even turn on old TV shows that I've already seen, that are like fun and comedic, while

01:05:53.100 - 01:06:09.070

making art. Because art can sometimes be this very serious thing, or you might be trying to depict a very serious idea. And so it's not always, like I personally believe it's not always healthy to be serious all the time.

01:06:09.070 - 01:06:23.320

So I personally like playing like old cartoons or old TV shows that I grew up kind of watching as a child. And having that play in the background while I'm making my

01:06:23.640 - 01:06:41.680

paintings. And with the mediums you have experimented—various mediums, like drawing, painting, installations, including video art—and also with motif, it's

01:06:41.840 - 01:06:57.170

also a vast ranging, including ones as you were talking about the Mughal Gardens, and the mythical South Asian stories as well.

01:06:58.410 - 01:07:13.200

Can you talk a little bit about your trajectory as an artist and how you're navigating and trying to find your own artistic language and style? Yeah, yeah. So I feel like

01:07:16.700 - 01:07:29.290

I don't know if I would consider myself having a particular style quite yet. I'm just sometimes like it, a lot of my art is a reaction to the world I'm living in.

01:07:29.910 - 01:07:43.280

And I'm kind of trying to view that under this landscape of the Mughal Garden, and, like, existing in this Zen like perfect space. And then something has

01:07:43.340 - 01:07:56.500

infiltrated into the space that's unknown, uncertain, and I'm responding to that uncertainty. And it's kind of the art is very much about responding to that uncertainty.

01:07:57.150 - 01:08:11.770

So sometimes I feel like the best way to respond to, is through installation. Sometimes I feel like the best way to respond to this is by-through painting, through printmaking, or through video. And

01:08:14.520 - 01:08:27.340

it's kind of like, if I feel like something needs to be addressed immediately, then painting is kind of my go-to form. If I feel like this is something that has entered into my

01:08:27.340 - 01:08:43.200

Zen-like space that can be responded to with time, then installation and video tends to be the direction I go with. And next, I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about your

01:08:43.930 - 01:09:01.230

identity as an artist and as an Asian American. Do you deal with such motifs in terms of dealing with and realizing your own identity as an Asian American, and especially as someone who was born here in the US?

01:09:03.510 - 01:09:21.310

So I think like I often identify as, or like see myself as American first. And then like, which it feels a bit ironic to say, because so much of my art practice is about the

01:09:21.370 - 01:09:39.180

Indian-Pakistani heritage, and the American in that hyphen that comes into the American-Indian, American-Pakistani words, but when I kind of think about myself, and by life, I always see myself as like American first.

01:09:39.180 - 01:09:54.500

And then I see myself as an artist who appreciates what I've been given through my parents and through my grandparents, and the stories that they've told me. And then as an

01:09:54.500 - 01:10:11.890

individual who was introduced to literature and the arts and culture at an, at an undergrad level. So, sometimes I also feel like I'm appropriating Indian and Pakistani culture into my work,

01:10:12.560 - 01:10:29.920

because, and I feel like I am the person who is the appropriator or I am the colonizer, because I have been raised from a very Western point-of-view and now I'm kind of taking what my, like what I've kind of just been

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gifted, and presenting it, a certain aesthetic and a look. But at the same time, it's coming from a very deep place of love, and a place of like gratitude, to be born into

01:10:50.380 - 01:11:10.550

a certain home to be raised in a certain way that where I was gifted a language, a second language to speak, music, a certain type of dance, a certain type of, like, storytelling.

01:11:10.550 - 01:11:26.750

So like the type of stories my grandparents and parents would tell me. So all of these things were gift—like, gifted into my life, or like kind of—I don't even know how to quite say it—but I think that, that's how I kind of view it.

01:11:26.750 - 01:11:40.220

It's like, American, then within that hyphen, there–there's a lot more that came along and so that I'm also Indian, and also Pakistani, and all of these other dashes in between.

01:11:43.680 - 01:12:00.230

Yeah, that's fascinating to hear that you've been so appreciative of your, your heritage, even—and feeling as a little bit like an outsider, a colonial—colonialism. That's the first time I've also heard someone saying that, which

01:12:00.230 - 01:12:14.640

is really interesting. And in terms of, in terms of contemporarity as an artist, like how do you deal with contemporarity in your work?

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As I remember, you also were saying that you've been reactive to the outside world. Yeah, so like, when it comes to, I guess, having the art be contemporary, or, you know, like, relevant,

01:12:38.400 - 01:12:54.460

relatable to the present, relatable to other artworks that are happening in the contemporary space. I personally feel like today's contemporary art is so diverse, that I've been very

01:12:54.710 - 01:13:09.020

lucky to be making art in the time that I do because it almost feels like anything goes. Like as artists, we're allowed to kind of try any medium, try-like push at any subject.

01:13:09.140 - 01:13:24.620

And, you know, there's also this openness to how we can talk about work, how we can write about work, how we can present artwork, and so it really is quite a

01:13:26.020 - 01:13:43.050

special time to be making art. And talking about Asian American, I felt like, these days, a lot of the artists are kind of given this prefix of their

01:13:43.540 - 01:13:57.210

ethnicity or their cultural style. Do you think it's okay to be addressed as a South Asian American artist? And to what extent is it okay, and to what extent is it not okay?

01:14:00.600 - 01:14:18.450

In one direction, I feel like it's such a hard question to answer, because I know how I personally feel about it. But at the same time I understand the holes and problems of saying, like saying that I wish, like everyone who

01:14:18.450 - 01:14:34.690

was an American artist would be labeled as "this is an American artist" rather than, you know, "this is an Asian American artist" or an "Indian American" or "Pakistani American," but just being labeled, you know, "American artist" who

01:14:34.690 - 01:14:52.940

is American and being presented to the world as that. But I also see the problems by saying that because there's, there are some artists who are very much about the heritage. For example, in my own work, it's very much about a

01:14:52.940 - 01:15:06.210

very specific type of cultural aesthetic that is being used to talk about contemporary life. And then there are some artists who are very much kind of separated from that, who

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don't want to be associated with the label of being, you know, an ethnicity, hyphen American. And so, I think sometimes it would just be nice to be asked, like, you know, like, if a curator was like, "How do you want me to label like, present

01:15:25.110 - 01:15:39.700

you to the world?" Or if somebody could be like, "Okay, how do you want to be written about in this article, or in this interview? How do you want to be presented?" Sometimes it would be nice if someone just asked,

01:15:39.700 - 01:15:54.400

because then that confusion wouldn't be there. But obviously, that's not always possible. And so I think my response to this would be very much, sometimes, you

01:15:54.400 - 01:16:08.720

just have to live with it. Like, you know, like I—even though I work very closely with this idea of heritage and culture, and traditional aesthetics, I would love to be called just an American artist.

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Because then in many ways, I would feel like I have been accepted by the larger American context. But, but at the same time, there's a lot of information that gets lost if I was just presented as an American artist.

01:16:28.590 - 01:16:46.400

Thank you for sharing. And what do you think, are the roles of the artists today in the society? Well, I think the role of artists today in society would be—that's actually

01:16:46.690 - 01:16:58.100

a very, very hard question too because, like, artists are many things. Sometimes artists make work that an audience just finds beautiful.

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And that's the intent is to make something that would beautify a home or a space or, like, elevate a space to look nicer. And then there are artists who are making art to make a statement, to talk about policies and politics and

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human rights or either, you know, climate change, and there are very important topics that they are bringing awareness to. So there are artists that are working to, like, bring awareness.

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And then there are artists that are also working to create—like, I would say, civil disobedience.

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So like, you know, artists who—and I think people would say that this doesn't make them an artist—but artists who make hate-hate symbols, who make hate-hateful imagery. And people say like, "Oh, but that means that they're not real artists." But I feel

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like, actually they are because they're making very powerful emotional work, that brings out a very violent reaction to things. And so those, there are

01:18:19.790 - 01:18:31.820

artists like that as well. And then there are artists who advocate for peace and civil society and culture and heritage. And so yeah, I think the role of an artist is

01:18:32.160 - 01:18:50.650

to look at what's happening in the world and to look at the present, the past, the future and respond to it. That's a such a wonderful way to, to, yeah, to

01:18:50.890 - 01:19:05.430

inspire many of the people who are working in the arts out there, especially the younger generations. And do you see yourself having, like, pursued art being kind of informed

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more about your own culture and heritage? Yeah, I do think like, by going into the arts, it definitely inform, like, informed my culture and heritage. So I feel like if I had pursued like medicine, or if

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I pursued, you know, engineering or some other field, then I might not have been as encouraged or inclined to take history, like history courses, or to take, you

01:19:41.340 - 01:19:54.210

know, cour-like courses on different types of religions and language courses. I would have maybe stuck to courses that were more towards the math and sciences.

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And so I am a little bit aware that my, certain courses I chose to take were thanks to professors encouraging me, to expand the way I think about the world, and the way I think about life in order to

01:20:12.940 - 01:20:27.470

enrich my art practice. And so I think art played a big role in that. Do you—I guess, you're still a young artist—but so far, have

01:20:27.470 - 01:20:46.930

you felt like as an Asian American artist, you have experienced more difficulty in your career? That is, that is actually a really tough question to answer, because I feel like the art, the art field in general, is quite

01:20:48.800 - 01:21:04.720

a difficult field to go into. And then once you're there, it's there, like, in some places, many doors open up. And some-many places, the doors are closed.

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And you just have to kind of navigate that space. And it's very hard to tell when, some doors are closed because of being Asian, or if it's because of being a woman, or if it's because of

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your age, if it's because of like your, like the certain place you're at your career, or if it's because your work just isn't what the person is looking for. So it's—I don't think it's all that clear to me at

01:21:34.760 - 01:21:49.380

this moment. Maybe, you know, 50 years later, if you asked me this question, I might have a different response. But at this point, I just, I'm not too sure. And I guess as an artist,

01:21:49.770 - 01:22:09.470

how—who have kind of experienced both the Houston art scene and the New York art scene, how do you compare the two? So it's a little difficult to compare the two, simply because I haven't been as engaged in the Houston art scene as I

01:22:09.470 - 01:22:25.950

would like. Like, I moved my art practice to Houston shortly after COVID happened and everything shut down. So, and then now, like, I've slowly started to try and visit galleries, and try and visit communities

01:22:27.540 - 01:22:45.860

and. like also, like non-like nonprofit groups just to see what the art scene in Houston is like. But one thing I have noticed is that art in Houston is much more slower paced

01:22:46.000 - 01:22:59.930

than art in New York City. Like in New York City, at any given time, there'll be some art opening happening, some show happening, some new thing that artists are talking about, or

01:22:59.930 - 01:23:15.150

some new controversy that's happening. Whereas in Houston, I feel like the, there aren't as many like topics that are, you know that like students would get together and be like, "I

01:23:15.190 - 01:23:27.990

can't believe this artist made this and I can't believe that it was shown that, the museum like, Houston Museum of Fine Arts.” Like, I don't think I've ever heard that quote, like conversation, happen.

01:23:28.350 - 01:23:44.170

Whereas in New York, like, students would be like, "I can't believe they showed that Whitney, it was so, like, inappropriate, or not, like okay to do.” So the conversation is a little bit like, it's not as urgent, it's not as fast paced.

01:23:44.500 - 01:24:03.400

But at the same time, I think there's a positive to that. With the Houston art scene is that, there's a lot more time that's given to the academic portion that artists puts to-towards. So it's like, whenever there's a show at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, I feel like

01:24:03.400 - 01:24:16.520

there's a lot more time that's given to the process or the thought that artists put in their work, or kind of the history behind it, or what led to an

01:24:16.570 - 01:24:32.160

artist getting to a certain point. Whereas I feel like in New York, it's kind of like, you want to be a little bit controversial, so people will talk about the work, so you can stay a little bit relevant. Yeah, that's really interesting you brought that up.

01:24:33.470 - 01:24:46.500

And I'm also curious, as a younger generation artist, do you make art with the audience in mind, or do you try to make it for yourself?

01:24:49.130 - 01:25:06.730

So what's interesting is like when I was an MFA student, I didn't think as much about the audience in mind, it was very much about, like, the, “what narrative I want to tell the audience, but not necessarily “will the audience like

01:25:07.210 - 01:25:23.090

this color choice," or “like the way this looks.” Because I wasn't really thinking about my art practice in a way of like, how to sell it to an audience. But it was like, you know, trying to tell a story to an audience.

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Whereas after I graduated, and then after I moved my art practice to Houston, I feel like, here in Houston, it's a lot more about, you know, will this person buy it or not?

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Because at the same time, you're not only an artist, but you also want to make a living. And so, I started to put a lot more thought into not just the narrative, but also like, “is this something that somebody would want to put in their home or in their office?” Or

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is it something that can be received by the public in such a way that they feel comfortable living with it? Whereas I think that, that wasn't

01:26:08.940 - 01:26:25.750

something I thought about or questioned, when I'm making work that's being shown in New York. Yeah, that's a perfect segue to my next question actually. So what is your relationship with the commercial art

01:26:25.750 - 01:26:41.090

world like? Yeah, like, yeah, that is actually a perfect segue into it. So like, I think that it's, as an artist, we're supposed to hate on the commercial art world.

01:26:41.290 - 01:26:57.880

But the same time, I personally feel like it's important. Like, you know, yeah, as an artist, you want to make a living, you want to be self-sufficient, or like, self-reliant, you don't—it's, and that also

01:26:57.880 - 01:27:12.880

kind of goes into a certain ethic that I believe in. Like, I don't want to always be dependent on someone else, I want to make work that allows me to continue to make work, if that makes sense.

01:27:13.530 - 01:27:31.150

So in one way, like sometimes the commercial art space can be a little bit frustrating because you'll see some artwork sell for millions, and then you'll see another work of art by another artist that you think is very amazing,

01:27:31.150 - 01:27:49.310

remarkable, very talented, and they're struggling to get seen by a gallery simply because of, you know, because, like, there's too many people making that type of work, or they're too young and, or

01:27:49.310 - 01:28:04.500

they haven't necessarily found that academic voice quite yet. So they won't, they're not getting the support that they could, that somebody could be giving them. And so like that, in that sense, it can be a little bit frustrating when it comes to the

01:28:04.500 - 01:28:13.120

commercial art space. But I do acknowledge and see the, the necessity or importance of it as well.

01:28:17.710 - 01:28:36.850

And have you—I'm not sure if I've covered this—but have you been part of any art fairs or the gallery world? So I haven't done any art fairs. But I did recently join, like, the Visual

01:28:37.480 - 01:28:49.800

Arts Alliance in Houston. And so I've been kind of trying to get to know more artists that way in Houston. And then you know like I've shown in different art

01:28:49.830 - 01:29:09.050

galleries before in New York, but—and I showed at the Lawndale Art Center—but not necessarily an art fair. So what do you think the commercial art fair and the art gallery world had influenced the artists, especially the

01:29:09.050 - 01:29:23.000

younger generation artists? Yeah. So I do think that, like, commercial art galleries have a lot of power. So for example, when big art galleries,

01:29:23.180 - 01:29:42.120

well-known art galleries, start showing work by a certain artist, younger artists might think like, "Hey, the way to be seen, or the way to be heard, is by making art in this style." So for example, like

01:29:42.580 - 01:29:55.050

Hunter Biden showing work in like a big New York City gallery, someone might see that and say, like, "Hey, if I want to be seen at this big New York City gallery, I need to make work like this" without realizing that not all

01:29:55.090 - 01:30:10.660

work that big galleries show are always because of the art itself, sometimes it's because of who the artists is. Like, just because an artwork is being shown a big gallery doesn't make it always good art.

01:30:10.800 - 01:30:26.910

Sometimes, it could be—and I've also seen artists who've shown at a big commercial gallery, and then after that, struggle to show work again. And so it's, like, so in

01:30:26.910 - 01:30:38.300

that sense, commercial galleries have a lot of influence, like they can prop an artist up very quickly, and also bring an artist down very quickly. And as an artist, it's more about being consistent.

01:30:39.340 - 01:30:53.830

And, and again, again, it goes back to the idea of it's not just about making one great work of art, but a body of art that speaks to one another. So that if you are shown at a big commercial gallery, you have

01:30:54.790 - 01:31:09.750

a history behind you that kind of supports the work that's being shown, and also, like, helps the artists themselves kind of keep pushing forward.

01:31:09.990 - 01:31:22.160

This, so like I've, I remember meeting an artist who said that they hadn't shown in a gallery for like 10 years, and then suddenly they were showing everywhere. And that happens like in art.

01:31:22.160 - 01:31:34.010

It's like, sometimes you'll be shown once and then you might not be shown for a while. And then, like a big commercial gallery would be like, "Oh, this artist has a lot of,

01:31:34.820 - 01:31:52.540

like, work that can be shown over a long period of time." So yeah. Yeah, that's super interesting. And next, I guess we will pivot into your, your personal life. So what do you do outside of your life as an artist?

01:31:53.290 - 01:32:06.450

And how do you manage your work life balance? Okay. So I, recently, I've got into a really nice rhythm, where it's like, I'll wake up early in the morning, go to the

01:32:06.450 - 01:32:21.840

gym, and then, and then I've been having a lot of fun doing that, like just going on a treadmill, walking for a bit. And then, like, I enjoy, like, swimming, going for a walk outside.

01:32:22.220 - 01:32:38.180

And then making art itself is such a big passion of mine. Sometimes I feel like I don't need any other hobby. But I also find it important to try and keep up on

01:32:38.250 - 01:32:52.870

reading as well, because I think it's through reading that we-we can stay open minded about things. So, and in undergrad, so much easier to do when you're being assigned a bunch of different books

01:32:52.940 - 01:33:08.060

that are well vetted. So like recently, I've been reading the book "World as Family." And I'm not sure how to pronounce the author's name, and I would have to like check on the author's name again.

01:33:08.480 - 01:33:21.940

But it's kind of like, and I always try to like read one hour before bed. So that's kind of like my routine, very simple. Go to the gym every morning, read one hour

01:33:21.940 - 01:33:41.110

before bed. And that's like the things I do outside of art. Yeah, thank you for sharing. And I guess that as we are approaching the end of the interview, I will love to ask you about your future body of work that you're working on, and what you plan to

01:33:41.110 - 01:33:57.380

do for your next steps as an artist? Yeah, so like, I guess, the current body of work that I'm working on is on this concept of the dots. And it's a little

01:33:57.380 - 01:34:11.030

bit like different from what I, like the "Pandemic" series and the "Election year" series. So it's this idea of everything starting at a point and expanding from

01:34:11.410 - 01:34:29.540

that. And it's a much more philosophical base that, and much more based on pattern making and traditional aesthetics and utilizing that. So in, like, Arabic and

01:34:29.540 - 01:34:44.230

also the Urdu language, there's this idea that the Quran was written starting with a dot, and then the whole thing starts. And so and in science, there's this idea of everything beginning at a

01:34:44.370 - 01:34:57.930

point. And then there's like the Big Bang, that happens, and universe is created. And so I really liked that idea of how a point can be so powerful in this idea of

01:34:57.930 - 01:35:14.340

like, even when we put a pen down on paper, and we lift it back up, it's—we're left with the dot in a point. And from that point, a whole story can be written, a whole history can be written, a painting can begin.

01:35:15.500 - 01:35:25.590

And so that's kind of the series that I'm now working on. And it's this idea of points and the dots. It seems though, very

01:35:27.590 - 01:35:39.860

elemental, very simple, but I'm excited by it. So that's where I'm at right now. Yeah, that's fascinating.

01:35:42.000 - 01:35:57.060

And next, I would love to invite you to do a time capsule with us to... if you would like to leave a message for the future of mankind. I would love to do that.

01:35:57.100 - 01:36:10.420

Like I think that's very exciting. Yeah, whenever you're ready, you can start. Okay, so for the time capsule, do I just leave a message and that's it?

01:36:11.200 - 01:36:23.040

Yeah. Leave a message as part of the interview. Yeah. Okay, for the time capsule, I would like to say that “We only get one life. So try to live it as

01:36:26.430 - 01:36:40.080

fully and richly as we can.” And that's it. Thank you so much, Ruhee for spending one hour and half with me and I've really felt inspired

01:36:40.080 - 01:36:50.920

and empowered by your work and your life stories. Thank you. That's really nice of you to say, I wish—I wish I could have asked you some of these questions as well.