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So today is February 26 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm the associate curator at the Houston Asian American archive. With me is Dr.

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Anne Chao, program manager of the archive and an adjunct faculty of Chao Center for Asian Studies. And today we're interviewing Mr. Robert Wayne Gee, who is dialling in from Washington D.C.

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How are you doing, Mr. Gee? I'm do– I'm doing fine. Great to– to start, can you share with us when and where were you born? I was born in Houston, Texas, on December 18, 1951.

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Great. Can you share with us the neighborhood you grew up in? The neighborhood we grew up in was in southeast Houston, which was a working class neighborhood. Literally, near a railroad track, believe it or not .

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And we were on the wrong side of the tracks actually. We remember very distinctly It was a very modest working class neighborhood. Very few people were white collar; it was mostly laborers, blue collar.

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But people were very—nobody was materially wealthy. But it was a very stable, safe neighborhood. And I remember having a very happy childhood, attending elementary school,

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middle school and high school, mostly high school in that area; and, and continue even though our family did move. In the middle of my high school years, I actually completed my high school at the original high school I began, which

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was in the old neighborhood. It– and, and now, it's in—the neighborhood is transformed. It went through, back in the 1960s, what we called white flight where many of the

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people left the neighborhood because more Black Houstonians were starting to move into the area and it was still a racially segregated society around that time. Can you tell us a little bit more in detail about the demographics of the neighborhood?

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Sure. I would probably say that uh—as I said, it was predominantly working class. It was overwhelmingly white. There were very few Asian, it wasn't even Asian

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families, Chinese families. The dominant Asian ethnicity in Houston at the time, were Chinese, predominantly Southern Chinese, from Guangdong Province.

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At that time, in the 1950s, there may have been probably nearly 50, early to mid 50s, probably only around 100 or so Chinese families living in Houston at that time.

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And we knew most of them through social activities, as well as church, which was the center of our social lives as children. There was a Chinese Baptist Church in Downtown Houston that we attended, and structured our social lives around all the way

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through high school, actually. And so we– we– we– we socialize with the, with kids that were our age that were growing up with us. But even then, if you went to

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school, there were only fewer than maybe six or seven Chinese students in the elementary schools that you would run into; there just weren't that many Chinese Americans in Houston at that time. As I said, the– the...

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Houston was very segregated at that time so there were no other ethnicities in our area. There were, there may have been a handful of Hispanic families, and in fact, my best friend in elementary school, was a Hispanic boy that I grew up with,

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who eventually grew up, became an engineer, and left Houston. But other than that, it was overwhelmingly white, a sprinkling of Chinese families and maybe some Latinos, but no African Americans. In fact, I didn't see a single African American in my

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school until my junior year of high school. Houston had begun desegregating over a period of years, since I would say the mid 60s. But they didn't get around

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to desegregating high schools until I was about to graduate from high school. So I went through an entire segregated school system, elementary and middle school while I grew up, there were no—there was no contact

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between African Americans and the rest of the community. They– they had their own separate schools, lived in different neighborhoods, and there was no commingling. Thank you for providing that very, very valuable information.

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And among the Chinese in that neighborhood, do you remember there were many Gees? There were Gees everywhere! Lots of Chinese we knew were Gees, and I continue to meet Gees,

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as I grew up, and we socialize, we had our own, obviously our own immediate family, my father's family. And I, you know, his– his two brothers, and their families, and we all socialized. We met a lot of other Gees, through again, through

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social events, the Gee Family Association, in particular, we had our annual picnic, which was the largest social event for all the Chinese Americans in Houston for many, many years. If I remember, it was at Milby Park, and

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they hired a caterer for the food; they brought it in. I remember, the—a lot of the members of the family were grocers. And so they had a connection with the wholesale grocery

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providers in the city. And the wholesale grocers would donate the food for our picnic. And so we got everything; it was all provided, I believe much of it was

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provided, complimentary by the wholesale grocery owners because the Gee family and many other Chinese American families had retail grocery stores, mom and pop stores, did a lot of trade for them. And so we were able

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to collectively leverage off of that, to get complimentary lunches for everybody for the picnic. And then they also had things like little rides and games for children. But it was a very big event.

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Everybody looked forward to that every year. Because you got to see everybody, all at once in the community. That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. And next, I'm wondering what your parents were doing

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for a living back then? My father was a restaurateur at the time. My mom was a—was a housewife, she didn't work. She raised me and my two brothers. And so my dad earned sufficient income so she didn't have to work and back then in the

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1950s, it would– would have been very unusual for the mother to be in, as part of the workforce if the—if the father had sufficient income. That was the exception, we, we only knew a handful of people that we knew

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socially, where the women actually did work. And so my father owned an interest in– in different restaurants. When I, when I was growing up, I do remember that he did start out.

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Before he got into the restaurant business. He was a salesman at an appliance store. The name of the appliance store was called "Standard Brands," and I remember going to the showroom, to look at the television sets that were

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being sold. This would have been probably around the mid 1950s. And back then, when you bought a television, it's not like a television you see today, which is a flat screen of different sizes.

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It was a huge piece of furniture, an enormous uh, round cathode ray tube that you would buy, that would have– that would have a wood platform

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and set in a wood, wood base. And so he sold those for a living and he was uh, he was basically a salesman on the showroom floor of this appliance store. And then sometime shortly after that, he did go into the restaurant business.

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I think he'd began by taking the city contract—my Uncle Albert, who was the pioneer in the restaurant business, who I know you've done a lot of research on, had the contract for the police cafeteria, the city contract to manage

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and operate the cafeteria for the city. And so every year, Uncle Albert would have to rebid the contract with the city. And then he decided, he...

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apparently he was starting up his own restaurants at the time. The best known one at that time was “Ding How”. He wanted to devote more time to developing his privately owned restaurant.

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So he asked my dad if he'd be interested in assuming the contract for the, for the city to manage the police cafeteria. This was the police cafeteria in Downtown Houston at the main police station on Riesner Street.

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I don't know if it's still there, but that was the original police headquarters. And so my father worked with the city government, assumed the contract for that, and as it turned out, we spent a lot of time in Downtown Houston, at the police

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station with him. I remember going down to visit him on weekends, we'd hang around the police station all day, we’d meet all the police officers that would come in, he would introduce us. And you know, and the police officers were very friendly, they literally play with

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us and, you know, take my little brother and play with him on on their laps and, and so it was a very good time very warm memories of visiting the police station, and I grew up as a child with a very positive impression of the police

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department. Because of that experience, because they were all friends of my dad. We felt very secure that our father had such good friends who all wore uniforms and drove these fancy motorcycles around town.

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Really a lot of fun as a kid, especially to be able to go downtown and see all that. Yeah, it's really heartwarming to hear your childhood memories. Can you also share with us some of the

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childhood games you played with your brother or your friends at childhood? Well, we did everything. I mean, we, we learned, you know, we learned to play checkers. And you know, my brother learned chess, I wasn't that good.

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There was no video games back then obviously; we entertained ourselves. We, we walked—we spent a lot of time outside, playing outdoors. We had a ditch in the back of our house. Again, it was a modest residential structure, we had a ditch, and

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we would go down into the ditch and fish for crawdads, crayfish basically is what they were, as what would kids would do, not realizing how dangerous it was actually to be, to be what was essentially in a drainage ditch.

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I mean, not not only unsafe from a standpoint of being of you know, being hurt by objects, but also, from a sanitation standpoint. In fact, I remember cutting my

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foot on a piece of glass while I was walking inside a ditch on one occasion, and it wasn't bad enough that it required stitches, but I remember my mother having to put a dressing on and telling me not to do that again. Fortunately, I didn't contract a disease.

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But today, if I had a child who did that, I would, I would be mortified. So we spent a lot of time playing, playing outside, playing with the neighborhood children. Again, it was a very safe, very wholesome environment.

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The children were all you know, children that we went to school with, we knew them in class or saw them in other classes. So we were very comfortable, just you know, playing with other kids. That's super sweet. And thank you for sharing that.

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Can you also tell us a little bit more about your name? We understand that you have a Chinese name. Can you share with us the meaning and the metaphors in your name? Yeah, you're gonna put me on the spot.

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I think it's, if I recall what my mom told me, it's, give me a second I'll just pull up the exact meaning. I know one is glory.

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It's– it's in Cantonese, or Toisan. Our family Gee Gen Vane. And Gen Vane is, I know one of the characters is glory. And I think the other one is, hold on just one second.

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See if I can pull this up. I know because I actually, I can't write it that well actually; I have it printed out. And I refer to that. And I've actually used it from time to time and business communications. But let me give you a moment and

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I’ll. So Gee, it's my– oh, it's Zhu in Mandarin, and Gee Gen Vane is health and glory. I believe it's in Mandarin it's Zhu Jian Rong. Wow, that's a lot of good meanings

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that your parents must have good wishes for you. I had a very interesting experience years later, when I went to China on behalf of the US government. I remember in Jinan, in– I

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can't remember which province this is– it's uh... Anyway, I went, I went to give a talk in China and met the Vice Minister for the provincial government of

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what is it? What province is Jinan? I can't remember. Anyway. What? Shandong!

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Yes, yes, yeah, Shandong Province. I met him. He spoke perfect English. I remember that and he actually had a much better suit that I had on. I don't know who his tailor was.

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But anyway, I shared with him my Chinese name, and he pronounced it, he said, you have a very beautiful name. And I didn't realize how it'd be, you know, not having gone to China that much

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at that time, this would have been the 1990s, I realized that my at that point, I realized that my parents had given me a very lovely name. But again, it wasn't until I had that experience, years later as an adult to appreciate it.

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Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. And I'm wondering, what are some of the family values that your parents emphasized in your upbringing? We were raised in a bicultural household.

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We were encouraged by my dad to be very American. My dad was a US citizen by birth, but had spent his childhood in China and never really mastered the English language.

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In terms of speaking, he spoke with an accent and somewhat garbled English his entire life, although you could, you could understand him when he spoke, he actually was a very good speech maker. And my mom also spoke with

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just a slight accent. She also was born in the United States, but spent her childhood in China. Both of them went back to China to live in the village during the Depression in the United States. And I tell people, you don't realize

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how bad things were in the US if you have to leave, you know, a city that has plumbing to go live in a village in southern China where there's no indoor plumbing, that's how bad things were. But so they, they encouraged us to,

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to assimilate. And my mom was speaking to us when we were very young, in our family dialect, and my dad encouraged her not to, because he wanted us to assimilate.

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But as a consequence, we grew up, as I said, in a bicultural household, so we were very American, in many respects. But also, we did observe traditional Chinese customs. My mother knew of, you know, of

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many Chinese superstitions, she would explain them to us, but she did not observe them. And in that time, she would scoff at them, but understood that many of our family members, practice them and would take time to explain them to us, because of

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practices and traditions that were being carried over from their days in China to, to live in the US. So we were very, we were acquainted with many of the superstitions, many of the folk practices, many of

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the, you know, sort of the mores. We practice filial piety. In our household, we were instructed whenever an elder walked into the room, we needed to greet them.

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And if they were to leave the room, we also needed to say something. Every time we would visit with relatives or even friends of our parents, who were Chinese, our parents would continue to prod us, remind us that we needed to

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acknowledge their, their presence when we, when—we, when we greeted them. So we—and I kind of still carry that, to this day. I remember those days.

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It's funny how things stick with you, as, as much as I consider myself Americanized, I still remember being required by my parents to observe those customs. Wow, that's a really interesting memory from like a time capsule.

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And I'm also wondering, since your parents were also born here, did they also tell you about how your grandparents’ experiences were first coming into the country? Yes, we heard a lot of stories.

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I heard it, not only from them, but through our other relatives. We heard it from my father's brothers, and my father, and their wives. And then we also heard from my mother's side of the

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family. My mother grew up in a family of nine brothers and sisters. And every time we got together with that big family with all the different cousins and aunts and uncles, we heard all these different stories about how things

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were in China, how life was growing up in the 1940s, that sort of thing, you know, sort of being part of the Chinese diaspora that came to the United States, so that was very much part of our own family history.

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And then also in 1958, my father's mother was finally brought to the United States from Mainland China. They had, she was already very elderly, in her 80s, and was suffering from

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dementia. But they were able to bribe the Chinese government, the mainland government to allow her to go to Hong Kong. And they brought her to live in the United States with us.

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Houston, and she rotated between the three families that were, that were in Houston to live with them for a while, until she grew too infirmed and had to be put into a nursing home. But I do remember that she came over when I was only seven years old at the time.

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And in fact, I don't know if you folks have a picture, there was a picture in the newspaper with her arrival at the airport. And I remember going to the airport.

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And I think Uncle Albert had brought a news—a news team from the, from the Houston Chronicle or the Houston Post, with him with a, with a photographer to capture the moment. I remember, you

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know, I was seven years old, I remember sitting there with all these people around us. And all the grandchildren were clustered around my, my grandmother, we all posed for a picture that wound up in the newspaper. And so

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that was also a very vivid experience. And if you don't, folks don't have that photo, I'm sure somebody can dig it out. Because you really should see the photo and the little write up that talked about it. And so, but I do remember

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that I remember going to this was, you know, 1958 I remember going to Hobby airport, which was the big airport in Houston at the time. It was called, you know, it wasn’t called Hobby back then, and,

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and so I remember I remember, you know, seeing all these people around us as a kid, with a lot of bright lights. That's all I remember. But and then, years later, I saw the picture and I said, “Oh, so that's what we were

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doing.” I'm also wondering if your parents or grandparents speak of any of the challenges that they faced? I heard a lot of hardship stories. Yes. My mom used to tell us about how they grew up in the village,

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the food they ate, you know, the things that we wouldn't dare touch here in the United States. I don't think that they were poor in China. But they were certainly not what I would consider to be wealthy. They lived in a village that you

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know, did not have indoor plumbing. We also were told that there was a sharp distinction between people who were from the rural parts of Guangzhou , which is where they were from, versus the “city” people.

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And I also distinctly remember that when my parents spoke Chinese, they both were fluent in Cantonese, and in the village dialect. And there were certain of their friends with whom they spoke Cantonese and others that

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they spoke village. And I asked my mother, “What's the difference?” And she said, she said, “Cantonese are the city people. They're the people that are educated.

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They're the more refined people.” She said, the village dialect is for rural people”. So I remember that I said, “Okay, we're not the refined peoples.” And no we're the, you know, “We're from the village. That's our people,” you know, we're not from the city.

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And so I carry that memory with me. So every time people ask me, “Which part of China are you from?” And this goes, even today, when I meet people, and even when I meet Chinese, I tell them that, you know, you know, “the villages that my forebears are

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from and, you know, in Guangdong, or outside of Guangzhou.” And I say, I tell Americans, “if you want to know what that means, it means that we were Cajun Chinese. And we spoke Cajun Chinese.

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We were village people. We were dirt, dirt farmers.” It's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that, humorously.

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And I'm also wondering, what kind of culture shock or did your parents have any kind of adapting to the new place in the US? You know, by the time we were kids, it's funny.

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We grew up steeped in, very steeped in American and Texas culture, as we grew up. We went to the rodeo every year, we you know, we, we dressed in western outfits at

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school. It was a big deal. It's a big deal in Houston, still, I understand. Haven't been to one in years. But, and we

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grew up watching American television, which had the imagery– imagery of you know, cowboys and Indians and, and we thought we heard these grand stories about the Alamo and Davy Crockett, and, and we went to school and

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you know, Texas schools are very, very oriented towards Texas history. We learned the history of Sam Houston. And so I tell people I grew up, I grew up the, you know, as a kid in Houston, I grew up more Texan than I even, more so than as an American.

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And so I understand Texas culture having been exposed to that at a very early age, because it's embedded in you, you have it pounded into your head as a school child, certainly back then in the 1950s.

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And so I didn't really experience any culture shock to speak of while I grew up in Houston, I had more culture shock when I left Texas to go to Washington DC as an adult, quite frankly. I know that sounds strange.

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But I really had a difficult time adjusting to Washington, because I, Texas was so different from the rest of the country. Wow, that's fascinating. And also moving to your, I guess, education experiences.

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Can you tell us a little bit about school, go to school back then? Yeah, it was. We went to a very large high school, excuse me, elementary school, I think it was the largest in

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the city at the time. And I do remember a couple of things. One was, it was at the outset of the baby boom, where all these couples would have children after World War II.

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And as a consequence, the school system was overwhelmed by the number of elementary school aged children, so they had to build shacks. Next to our school it was—it was Louisa May Alcott, elementary school in southeast Houston.

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And I remember spending some of my time going to school in these shacks; I mean the shacks were not bad. They did have, you know, lighting and electricity. And, you know, all you know, you know, all the conveniences of modern life,

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but it was definitely a struc—a wooden structure. And that stood out I didn't think anything unusual about it wasn't until years later, when people told me that we had to have shacks because the school system was overwhelmed by the number of

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kids that were attending at that time, around the mid 1950s. And so I had a distinct memory of that. And then I do remember that school was very, very fun. It was, it was a very enriched learning environment, the

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teachers were very friendly. They treated us very nicely, I didn't really have any negative experiences, any teachers, I, in fact, I, you know, I searched in my memory to see whether I might have been treated differently. I

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think of anything, my teachers actually treated me somewhat better, because I was more obedient than the average student. I don't, my impression was that Asian kids are taught, you know, not to be rambunctious.

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And I could see, you know, my white counterparts, you know, misbehaving or doing things that I wouldn't dare do. And I would sit there very well behaved.

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And so I remember getting report cards and the teachers would write on the report cards to my parents, “Robert is so well behaved, you know, he doesn't make noise, he doesn't speak out of turn.” So, you know, I think you know, that kind of, that mode of conduct of, you know, just kind

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of being a quiet, serious student, carried me and I did well, elementary school, I did okay, I did very well, in middle school, what we call junior high. When I graduated from junior high, which

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is only two years, yeah, it was three years, I'm sorry, three years in middle school in Houston. I was—I was the runner up for the highest award among my graduating class. And it was, the award was given by the teachers.

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I was very touched, and surprised that they thought so highly of me, when I when I got that award when I graduated from middle school, and pretty much, you know, I was a hard, hard working student all the way through high school, because I was endeavouring to try to

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get into, you know, to a major university at the time. And– and that was the other thing, our parents expected us to go to college. That was completely, never– never a matter of question.

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Neither of my parents have been able to go to college. My father's formal education stopped in the sixth grade in China. And my mother only had a high school education that she completed in Chicago after she had returned

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from China when she was 14 years old. And finally got her high school diploma in her late teens. And so for them, it was very important for us to go to college.

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And so the question then was, what college would we go to, not whether we would go to college. And so I was very focused on that, all through my high school years, and did all sorts of things extra, extracurricular, trying to determine whether

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I could excel at math and science. You know, took a look, a lot of science, took a lot of math courses, concluded that I was not good at either. But it

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also was very active in forensics, speech and debate, did a lot of debate competitions all around the city, traveled out of the city from time to time to attend debate competitions. So I did a lot of that.

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And that kind of set me up to, you know, to take on tasks that required public speaking, and eventually, obviously, served me well later in life when I began assuming jobs that required a lot more public presence.

00:30:06.160 - 00:30:20.950

So I was, at the time, I didn't know what I was self grooming, all the way back to high school. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. And I'm wondering, throughout your school experience to college,

00:30:21.000 - 00:30:35.450

what are some of the if any, were some of the stereotypes that you happen to struggle with, like for the racial identity? I'll tell you the only time I've really felt different was when I went to college. I went to University of Texas.

00:30:36.140 - 00:30:49.910

And it was a, it was a class system that I saw. It was a class system not necessarily divided by race, although there was that element that was developed by, it was stratified by income. The wealthy kids belonged to the fraternities

00:30:50.530 - 00:31:03.740

and sororities, and then it was everybody else. And I knew that—that there was a hierarchy that there, that seemed to be in place on the university campus. And then I was exceptional, because I was a very rare ethnic

00:31:03.740 - 00:31:21.040

minority, there just weren't that many African Americans or Latinos as well. In fact, there may well have been more Asians by the time I got to University of Texas than of any other ethnic group. And the Asians also, some of them did

00:31:21.040 - 00:31:36.230

assimilate. And I did as well, I joined a number of different clubs and that sort of thing. But we also ran around in packs, and we socialized both in Chinese groups, particularly with some of the foreign students from China,

00:31:36.730 - 00:31:50.500

predominantly, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, I don't think there was anybody from the mainland back then, this would have been in the 19—late 60s, early 70s. And then there was a group of us who hung around together who had gotten to know one

00:31:50.500 - 00:32:01.550

another in Houston. And we're all attending University of Texas, I socialize with that group. But then I slowly began to broaden my horizons as I reached graduation age and knew I was going to go to

00:32:01.550 - 00:32:17.190

law school, and began to peel my- myself away from that social network, and began developing other networks that were more relevant to my professional development. But at the time, when I was at University of Texas, I did, I

00:32:17.190 - 00:32:30.900

did note that there was a sharp difference between different classes by virtue of income and some sharp differences relative to ethnicity as well, but nothing that I was that, consciously aware of, was spent much time on.

00:32:33.040 - 00:32:44.890

I just became an ordinary college student that flowed with the culture of the University at the time, you know, which is you love football in the fall. And then in the spring, you love spring football .

00:32:44.980 - 00:33:00.600

University of Texas, they didn't have much of a basketball team then, so. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm also wondering, besides football, what are some of the hobbies or clubs and involvement with societies that you had during college?

00:33:01.090 - 00:33:17.740

Well, the– the biggest, the biggest club I joined was I joined the Pre-law Association, because I wanted to, I was thinking about going to law school. And I actually was elected President of that association. So I spent a lot of time organizing events where we would invite people in the legal

00:33:17.740 - 00:33:34.080

community, or faculty from the law school, to come talk to us both about the study of law and the practice of law. And I remember in one case, we brought in a prosecutor, who was very celebrated.

00:33:34.900 - 00:33:55.420

He was a local prosecutor from Austin, who had made his name, prosecuting a very notorious criminal in the 1960s named Billie Sol Estes, who had defrauded the United States government and the Department of Agriculture, that it was, it

00:33:55.630 - 00:34:07.520

was a case that had, that drew national headlines. Well, this prosecutor lived in Austin. So we invited him to give us a talk on what it was like to try that case. And so I did things like that.

00:34:07.520 - 00:34:22.220

I also, I think I worked on the yearbook, but it was just not much fun. It was just, it was primarily just to grow my network. But most of the time I spent time studying and then trying to improve my

00:34:22.220 - 00:34:35.890

grade point average because I wanted to get into law school. So and then, about that time, I would say, around the middle of that time, it was, there was a lot of ferment on campus over the Vietnam War.

00:34:37.110 - 00:34:55.150

I, like most of the students back then, became active in the Anti-War movement. Austin was a—one of the chief University epicenters of protest. And I began spending time attending anti-war protests, along with

00:34:55.150 - 00:35:12.970

many of the other students at that time; this would have been probably around, be around 1970, 1971, ‘72. The galvanizing moment I remember on campus was the murder of the students at Kent State University by the National Guard

00:35:12.970 - 00:35:30.130

during the Vietnam War protests. And those memories are still very vivid in my mind, because I see the people protesting today, and in certain respects, I can relate to that. They're young. They're very idealistic, as was I.

00:35:31.120 - 00:35:48.580

And I remember that was a period of internalization and searching for values, and trying to see whether the system could be changed at that time; we were all very idealistic. And then around my senior year, I got involved in my very

00:35:48.640 - 00:36:01.960

first presidential campaign. I remember that. That was the 1972 campaign for George McGovern running against Richard Nixon. And I vaguely remember attending the campaign headquarters and seeing

00:36:02.600 - 00:36:15.140

the– the director for the George McGovern campaign was brought in from out of state. He was a very tall, lean guy, who spoke very slowly. And I remember that guy, couldn't remember what his name was until years

00:36:15.140 - 00:36:28.340

later, that I remember who it was. And it was a guy named Bill Clinton, who you recall later became Governor of Arkansas and President of the United States, Bill Clinton was the head of the McGovern campaign in Austin,

00:36:28.340 - 00:36:37.570

Texas in 1972. I remember seeing him and hearing him speak. But I didn't put two and two together until years later when he was running for re-election — actually when he was running for president.

00:36:37.900 - 00:36:50.040

And he talked about his experience, and I realized it was him. And I spent a lot of time doing canvassing off time from taking time off from school, to doing neighborhood canvassing for the McGovern

00:36:50.400 - 00:37:04.890

campaign. That was a very painful lesson because McGovern lost by a landslide. I think he carried the District of Columbia, Massachusetts, in the 1972 race. Of course, Richard Nixon got his just desserts, d he, he was almost

00:37:04.890 - 00:37:19.020

impeached and had to resign from office years later. But that was a lesson learned from a very early— and that's when I started becoming very active in politics, my senior year in, in college, and got the political bug that,

00:37:20.670 - 00:37:37.300

you know, became more animated later in my career. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm wondering if you would call that your defining moment in your early life? That was—I think that had to be.

00:37:38.030 - 00:37:50.370

I think that was and I'll tell you why. It changed my value system. Up and up to that point, I was very, I would say, I grew up in a very conservative household politically, as well, as

00:37:52.810 - 00:38:03.280

you know, culturally, you know, Chinese Americans are very cautious, conservative people; I know that. That was the environment we grew up in. But for, but for the very first time, I learned to challenge

00:38:04.410 - 00:38:15.720

expectations, I learned to think for myself, I learned to challenge what was—what was expected of me in certain respects, I challenged my own values, I began to rethink my own values.

00:38:16.420 - 00:38:33.930

I saw friends of mine being drafted to fight the war in Vietnam, I saw—you would turn the television on in the evening, you'd see the death toll. And I also remember, as a freshman staying up late at night to hear the lottery numbers being drawn that would

00:38:33.930 - 00:38:46.210

determine who would be subject to the draft. Fortunately, I had a high number; it was 208. I remember that. So I was not subject to the draft. But I remember others that– that were and they would do it doing everything they

00:38:46.210 - 00:38:58.720

could to try to defer being inducted into the military. So it was, it was a very gut wrenching experience for me personally, because it changed my outlook, and I think it made me, it made me change my values.

00:38:59.460 - 00:39:12.410

I think that if, whereas I might have been more oriented to more of a conservative political philosophy, I actually think that that's what was transformative and making me much more progressive in political orientation.

00:39:13.610 - 00:39:28.560

Which is, which was a surprise to me. Because I would have thought that that would have been something that I would have outgrown as I'd gotten older, as I had, as have been with, in many of my peers, but actually, I've carried many of those

00:39:28.560 - 00:39:39.220

values, even to this day. And when I see people who are as idealistic as I was at that—at that age, I don't, I don't treat them with disrespect.

00:39:39.970 - 00:39:56.760

I treat them with, with respect and with a measure of admiration, that they too can be as idealistic as I once was. I'll tell you what happened. A more recent story. I mean there—when—during the 20, during the 2016

00:39:57.700 - 00:40:10.170

campaign, I went online, and I could see a number of Asian Americans that are wanting, were wanteing to go to the Democratic National Convention for Bernie Sanders. The—one woman was a Sanders delegate from Texas.

00:40:11.100 - 00:40:22.600

She was a Chinese American. She was a student in University of Texas. And she created a GoFundMe page to raise money. And I could see that she was only picking

00:40:22.600 - 00:40:34.520

up like, donations of like, $5, $10, whatever. She needed to raise about $500. So I never met the woman, I saw her, I saw her Facebook post.

00:40:35.220 - 00:40:47.330

So I went on her GoFundMe page, and I gave her $250. And I said, “You don't know me, you'll never meet me. But, you know, go do it.” And I wasn't even a Bernie Sanders supporter .

00:40:48.500 - 00:41:01.930

But I wanted to encourage somebody who was—who exuded the same degree of idealism I did at that same age; it reminded me of myself. That's really inspiring.

00:41:02.210 - 00:41:11.470

Thank you. And I guess on that note, I'll hand it over to Dr. Chao for the later-in-life questions. Thank you, Ann. Thank you, Bob.

00:41:11.470 - 00:41:24.970

This is fascinating background information. And I think with your extensive CV I wonder, would you like to move chronologically through your career, out of law school, to the law firms and in venturing into the public service arena?

00:41:25.960 - 00:41:38.690

So, the right after law school, did you have any trouble finding a job? Yeah, it was very strange. I knew that I wanted to go, I knew I didn't want to stay in Texas. And the reason why was I had already talked a lot of people.

00:41:39.340 - 00:41:53.310

And my father knew a lot of people in legal community. That's he, at that time, my father was spending a lot of time at the Harris County Courthouse; he was an expert witness as a

00:41:54.100 - 00:42:07.170

real estate appraiser. He had gone through a number of career changes himself; he left the restaurant business many years earlier, went into real estate, commercial property real estate, and then became an expert at valuation.

00:42:07.840 - 00:42:23.060

So it was through him that I actually met a lot of attorneys, as I was deciding to go to law school. And then as I was about to graduate, and then also, as I got admitted to the bar, so I, we actually

00:42:23.100 - 00:42:34.230

grew up knowing a lot of people in the legal community. But what I learned was that I had different options, I probably could have gone to work in a small firm in Houston, predominantly,

00:42:36.430 - 00:42:49.200

maybe an immigration practice. But my horizons were much broader. The subject matter didn't really interest me. What I was more interested in was federal administrative law.

00:42:50.350 - 00:43:03.950

I-I-I had a strong desire to go work on antitrust and consumer protection issues with the federal government. I got– I got bitten by that bug when I was at the University of Texas Law School. So my– I was actually trying to

00:43:03.950 - 00:43:16.380

land a job in Washington, whatever it was, rather than trying to apply— But rather than try to interview with a law firm in Houston. The other thing I was told, and this was, through some friends of my father, who were

00:43:16.380 - 00:43:29.190

with large law firms, they already told my dad that their firms would not hire me because of my color. Because they just didn't hire people who are not white. They were very candid with them. They said, “It's a shame that Bob is, you

00:43:29.190 - 00:43:42.140

know, is not, you know, Caucasian, because we'd love to, you know, we'd love to interview him, but we know he would never be hired.” And I heard that from my dad. So I decided not to go there.

00:43:42.140 - 00:43:54.590

Although, fast forward years later, guess what, I did wind up in a large law firm in Houston. I came into through the back door, but I'll save that for another part of the discussion. So what I did was I took the bar.

00:43:55.100 - 00:44:10.800

I stayed in Houston that summer. I remember spending all the time watching—Let me see. This would have been 1976. We, I spent a lot of time watching what was going

00:44:11.150 - 00:44:28.260

on. I don't know if Watergate was — No Watergate was earlier, 76, what was it? Anyway, I spent the summer in Houston not doing much. And then finally, I had already taken one trip to Washington, in that spring, flew up for a job

00:44:28.260 - 00:44:40.160

interview, for a couple of job interviews. Courtesy of our– our Congressman, Bob Casey, who, whose office set me up with a couple of interviews. One interview that spring is

00:44:40.160 - 00:44:56.190

very memorable. I still remember the agency, it was an agency that no longer exists in Washington. Civil Aeronautics Board. The guy interviewed me. And he basically told me that he said, “You know, you're a minority. And if– if we decide to hire you, we're gonna have to keep an

00:44:56.260 - 00:45:08.570

eye on you. Because we hired a minority woman, a black woman one time, and it didn't work out.”He actually told me that. And I love telling this story because of what happened later in my career. But anyway, so that happened.

00:45:08.910 - 00:45:18.260

I didn't– I didn't work out—those interviews didn't work out. I didn't get any offers, went back to Houston to live after I graduated from University of Texas. Finally, I just got tired of waiting.

00:45:18.690 - 00:45:36.140

So I hopped in my car, it was the week Jimmy Carter was elected president in November—first week in November, and I just drove to Washington, stayed with a classmate of mine who landed a job as a attorney with the US Postal Service, and then

00:45:36.940 - 00:45:47.390

start knocking on doors, interviewing as many people as I can, and I did land an offer. That December, I was very lucky. I certainly, took me about a month and a half, but I

00:45:47.390 - 00:46:00.260

landed a job, got an apartment, so I got set up in Washington in a fairly quick period of time. And I– my very first job was as a transportation lawyer, again, at a federal agency that long— no longer exists. But it got me in the

00:46:00.260 - 00:46:16.370

door. And that was my first opportunity to be part of the federal government in a career job. And then I stayed with that job for a couple of years. And I developed, I had very good relations with the people in that office.

00:46:16.860 - 00:46:29.990

And about that time, there was an opportunity to expand my horizons, the federal government was getting ready to deregulate transportation. And so we knew that this agency was not going to have longevity.

00:46:29.990 - 00:46:43.040

So everybody was looking around. And one of the agencies that people were looking at was an agency that– that regulated energy. It was called the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. One of my superiors had already gone there, was a senior

00:46:43.040 - 00:46:58.000

attorney. And he called me up to see if I would be interested in joining him and his boss as– as– as an attorney advisor. And so that's how I got into the energy– energy industry in 1979, working in the federal government.

00:47:00.060 - 00:47:13.660

So your first job was with the Interstate Commerce Commission? That's the one that—I see. So once you're—so basically, you've already stepped into the public service arena, sort of. Right. As a career federal attorney.

00:47:14.200 - 00:47:23.640

Yes, non-political. We're all subject to the Hatch Act. So actually, my political involvement was put into, pitted, put onto a shelf.

00:47:24.480 - 00:47:41.880

Literally, I was not a political participant at all in anything while I was a federal career employee. They did not prohibit you from engaging in political activity or expression, it's just that the things that you could do visibly at the workplace were

00:47:41.880 - 00:47:54.900

limited. And then you– we learned that you needed to be careful, because you didn't want to become subject to ethics investigations, and that sort of thing, as a federal career employee, so and, there's the Hatch

00:47:54.900 - 00:48:08.500

Act, which prohibited– prohibited certain political activity by federal employees. So– so I didn't really, I just– I just did not get that involved politically, even though I had a strong political interest, which drew me to Washington.

00:48:09.220 - 00:48:23.680

I didn't do much with that when– after I became a career employee for the eight or nine years that I was with the federal government at the time. So did you feel any discrimination as a minority in that commission?

00:48:23.880 - 00:48:35.550

Not really, no, the only– only difference was that, again, there were not that many Asian Americans anywhere in the federal government. It was a very small subset of the Federal workforce.

00:48:36.920 - 00:48:51.080

I knew everybody in my agency who was Asian, and there were only two or probably fewer than six or seven of us in a very large agency. And then the same, at the federal agency at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,

00:48:52.000 - 00:49:01.480

there was even fewer Asians, probably maybe three in the entire agency. So it's very small. And you really kind of kept to yourself in

00:49:01.480 - 00:49:11.440

your own professional network, and your own set of friends. And you kind of assimilated—there was very little ethnic awareness, I would say. I did belong.

00:49:12.420 - 00:49:31.690

I did socialize with some Asian American employee groups, though, and on a limited basis, but, and did go to events, local events that were put together by local Chinese

00:49:32.370 - 00:49:42.750

American community leaders. My parents were very good friends with a family that lived in suburban Maryland, who worked for the federal government.

00:49:43.310 - 00:49:55.920

And I actually stayed with them when I was doing my job search in the spring of ‘76. And they became very close to me, and they would invite me to social outings with the Asian American community.

00:49:56.810 - 00:50:10.740

And– and– and so through them, I was, you know, exposed to the local Asian American community and met other Asian Americans in the federal government. It seemed like everybody who worked in Washington

00:50:11.370 - 00:50:22.320

at that time worked, who was Asian worked in the federal government. I knew very few people who were in the private sector, who were Asian American in Washington at that time. And I met a number of people that worked

00:50:22.320 - 00:50:37.300

in a number of different agencies, all over the map. Again, there weren't that many of us, but I was able to meet them. And– and– and so I did meet the local community. But again, it wasn't—I didn't really get elevated or have any elevated

00:50:37.300 - 00:50:54.790

sense of awareness, or consciousness of my role in any Asian American community other than for social purposes. And in fact, I, at one time I applied to go back to law school at Georgetown University Law School to get my

00:50:54.790 - 00:51:08.380

Master's of Law degree. I didn't, eventually didn't complete it, I was going to get a master’s of law in tax, and realized I didn't really want to become a tax practitioner. But I remember that when I matriculated, they got my

00:51:08.380 - 00:51:19.130

name on a database. Somehow they found out I was Asian American. And they started sending me all sorts of mailings for the club, the Asian American Law Students Association at Georgetown Law School.

00:51:20.140 - 00:51:30.950

And I actually remember being quite offended, that they would expect me to join this group of Asian law students, because I didn't really feel like I had anything in common with this group. Not as that may seem, now.

00:51:31.780 - 00:51:43.510

I want– I felt like I had already successfully achieved on my own, I was a member of the Federal workforce, there was no need for me to, you know, get involved in any type of social networking with Asian American lawyers.

00:51:44.170 - 00:51:56.700

There was no Asian bar, yet at that time, in DC to speak up, I met a number of Asian American attorneys. In fact, some of them were friends of mine, in my agency, but there was

00:51:56.700 - 00:52:15.300

no— other than social purposes, there was no need for us to convene together. So my social advocacy, my social advocacy IQ, was very low at that time, let’s put it that way. I was much more career oriented, self oriented in

00:52:15.300 - 00:52:28.310

developing my own career, and really didn't think to give or spend much time with community activity other than for social purposes. And back then I was single was up to– to meet other– other– other women and, you know,

00:52:28.750 - 00:52:42.920

socialize with them, date some of them, that sort of thing. So there was a very selfish motivation for networking, right? Single young male, you know, in the– the family that were friends of my parents promised my mom and

00:52:42.920 - 00:52:54.850

dad, they would meet, introduce me to all the young women that they knew. It was that sort of thing. In fact, they went overboard, trying to connect me with so many women they met, it was just kind of embarrassing, but that's

00:52:54.850 - 00:53:07.310

another story for another time. We do want to get your romance story as well. Right, Right. So professionally was a Federal Energy Regulatory Commission job, your first exposure to the energy field?

00:53:07.700 - 00:53:21.940

Yes. That was the very beginning. And so you stay there for six years? Yes. And in 1985, you went to Tenneco. So how did that come? What happened was in 1983,

00:53:23.240 - 00:53:36.620

my father passed away, while I was still in Washington. And about that time, I had made a decision that eventually, I was going to leave the federal service and get a job in the private sector.

00:53:37.410 - 00:53:51.690

And in the job I did, I actually worked with a lot of Houston-based companies, most of the pipelines, we regulated pipelines at the FERC, as it was called, that's the acronym. And all those pipelines are headquartered in Houston.

00:53:52.880 - 00:54:06.110

So I was meeting a lot of people from law firms in Houston, executives in Houston, you know, partners and associates from Houston. It was– it was– it was a very strange experience for me, because here I was, I

00:54:06.110 - 00:54:17.310

traveled all the way to Washington to join the federal government. And guess what? I wound up spending a lot of time with all these people lived in Houston. So I said, okay, so I-I-I knew at the time, I joined

00:54:17.720 - 00:54:26.770

the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, that that might present an opportunity for me to get back to Houston because I knew that, you know, Houston was the energy capital.

00:54:27.900 - 00:54:36.950

A lot of the activity was centered in Houston. So, but I didn't fully realize that, that potential until I wound up meeting all these people. So what happened was, I began putting

00:54:36.950 - 00:54:53.190

out feelers and I, I met a gentleman while I was at the FERC. He was the general counsel, who was appointed by Ronald Reagan, a fellow by the name of Charlie Moore. He was a trial lawyer from Houston, who was only about

00:54:53.190 - 00:55:09.500

a year older than me, but he had been named general counsel to head the legal department of that agency. He was a cigar chomping, boot wearing, beer drinking, whiskey drinking Texan, almost like a stereotype.

00:55:09.500 - 00:55:25.490

But he was brilliant. Ex-football player from University of Houston, could talk your ears off, brilliant guy. He and I hit it off. He liked me because number one, I was from Texas. And you know, I kind of get along with most people.

00:55:26.230 - 00:55:38.980

We enjoyed each other's company. He, I always felt that Charlie never treated me any differently from anybody else, which I appreciated. And so what happened was, he had already left the federal government to go back to

00:55:38.980 - 00:55:51.440

Houston, he rejoined his old law firm. And so when I began putting feelers out, I called him up. And I said, “I'd like to come back to Houston, could you help me out?” And he gave me a good reference to join a client of his,

00:55:51.870 - 00:56:04.040

which was Tenneco Oil at the time. And so that's why I went to Tenneco, it was a– it was a client of Charlie's. They flew me down to Houston, interviewed me. They paid for all, you know, they hired me, they paid for all my

00:56:04.040 - 00:56:18.460

moving expenses, helped me buy out my– my condominium in Washington, which value-wise was static. So they did a lot of things to help facilitate my– my movement back, use it.

00:56:18.460 - 00:56:31.330

And so that's why I moved back to Houston for that and also to be reunited with my mom and my family at that time, which is two years after my dad had passed away. Thinking all along that, you know, this is what my long term plan was now,

00:56:31.790 - 00:56:43.660

which is come back to Houston, make Houston my home, after I had– had a taste of Washington, DC. And at that– at that time, I figured Washington was going to be in the rearview mirror for the rest of, rest of my career.

00:56:44.250 - 00:57:02.500

I was going to make Houston my home once again, and began building my own professional network in Houston, as well as my social network. Can I ask, what was your salary at the first at the Interstate Commerce Commission and then– then FERC and then Tenneco?

00:57:03.360 - 00:57:16.320

Sure, let me see. I think my very first salary in the federal government was about $11,000. A year? A year. And I thought that was a lot of money.

00:57:18.690 - 00:57:35.430

Nowadays, that's working poor, right? And then I remember eventually, when I left the federal government, I'm thinking it was probably– probably around $40,000 a year or something like that, but the time I left.

00:57:35.800 - 00:57:50.580

And then I'm in tenneco they didn't really pay me that much. They– they paid me slightly above what I was making. But they offered me a package of different, you know, different things, you know, a thrift plan, and then they would buy out my

00:57:50.640 - 00:58:01.060

house, and it helped pay down my points on my mortgage. And so cumulatively, it worked out. But I also knew, and then, but I also– but I also knew

00:58:01.060 - 00:58:11.680

that this was something I was just going to try out and see how well it worked, working for a company. And one thing– one thing that was different, this is really weird. When I was in the federal government, I worked seven

00:58:11.680 - 00:58:24.550

days a week, I was– I was a hard worker, even weekends, I remember going in on weekends. I was on the trial staff at the time. I would go in on a Saturday, and sometimes on Sunday to do work, not necessarily a full day.

00:58:25.160 - 00:58:38.530

But I would go in and try to catch up on what I had not been able to complete during the week and then read ahead of time to adjust my calendar for the following week. And by that time, I had assumed management responsibilities

00:58:39.540 - 00:58:50.410

with a team of lawyers. I supervised 10 lawyers, even though I was, you know, not that many years out of law school. So I worked every, almost every day of the week. A lot of that for no additional compensation.

00:58:51.580 - 00:59:02.530

Back then you could accrue what they call comp time, which you can then roll over into additional vacation time, or get paid out at the time of severance. And I didn't even do that. I didn't log it.

00:59:03.300 - 00:59:15.500

I just didn't even bother. And so when I went to go work for Tenneco, it was really weird. I started going into the office of weekends. And nobody was there. Nobody, either Saturday or Sunday, the place is vacant.

00:59:16.280 - 00:59:30.110

And I thought to myself, “What am I doing here? Nobody even notices I’m here.” So I said, Okay, so I started taking weekends off for the first time, after, you know, being in the private sector. And I kept thinking, you know, maybe I should have done this

00:59:30.110 - 00:59:42.890

earlier. It's a pretty easy lifestyle. Working as in house Counsel for a major oil company, you don't have to work weekends here. Wow. This is amazing, a good story.

00:59:43.300 - 00:59:57.060

But then you stayed at Tenneco only for two years, and then you went to a law firm, right? Yes. The story behind that was there was a woman that I had worked for when I was in the federal government who was my boss after—this is after Charlie had left,

00:59:57.230 - 01:00:09.410

and she also became a mentor of mine. Both she and Charlie were mentors of mine and I remember she was– she– she was a senior attorney, and I worked under her when I was a supervisory trial attorney.

01:00:10.560 - 01:00:24.790

And she had left to join the same law firm that Charlie was a partner in, and she was a partner there as well. And I kept in touch with her, and she very eagerly wanted me. And I socialized with her and her husband, who was also an attorney.

01:00:25.390 - 01:00:37.880

He had been with the Justice Department for a number of years and was, I think, also in a law firm at the time in Houston. So we– I socialized with them, and she desperately wanted me to join her and Charlie– Charlie's law firm.

01:00:38.660 - 01:00:50.890

So she talked to Charlie and they made room to bring me over laterally. From well, actually not lateral, they actually agreed to pay me for much more money. I mean, my– my– my compensation took a huge jump by

01:00:50.890 - 01:01:03.890

joining the law firm, but I had to work harder. That was a job where I did work weekends, and I worked holidays. So– so by going, it was actually something that I was more accustomed to because I'd already worked weekends when I was in the

01:01:03.890 - 01:01:16.000

federal government. So you know, working weekends, again, in a law firm wasn't that big a deal to me. So that's what I saw the opportunity. Back then the law firm, It was a– it was a law firm that was made up

01:01:16.570 - 01:01:27.570

of two law firms that were combined into one, held together by a senior partner, who was the former Governor of Texas, his name was Mark White. And there were two firms.

01:01:27.570 - 01:01:37.690

It was a Fort Worth firm and Houston firm. This was the Houston firm that White had come from, but he also wanted to join the Fort Worth firm. So they combine both firms.

01:01:38.430 - 01:01:50.800

And White was a senior partner, at his office was actually down the hall from me. So I remember distinctly coming to work, and seeing the former Governor of Texas, literally in the hallway, just a few doors

01:01:50.820 - 01:02:05.050

down from my office. I remember you walk into his office, he had a big picture, a painting of Sam Houston, on his wall, and a saddle, a real live, you know, cowboy saddle on a mount in the middle of

01:02:05.050 - 01:02:15.910

his office, with all sorts of memorabilia when he was Governor of Texas, you know, on his glory wall. So Mark would wander up and down the hall, talk to people, we would socialize with him.

01:02:16.520 - 01:02:30.860

You know, every– every Friday after work, we'd go to the– go to the lunchroom and head to happy hour, they'd bring in drinks for everybody. And he'd show up and we'd sit there and it was– it was a very informal environment after work, very hard working.

01:02:31.540 - 01:02:38.960

But we enjoyed ourselves. And so I felt figured that this was a good place for me to be at the time. It was helping me to develop my professional network.

01:02:39.310 - 01:02:53.640

I was becoming acquainted with people who were in political leadership. I could see, you know, who their network was, you know what was going on politically in Texas at the time. Mark eventually ran for governor again, and I

01:02:53.720 - 01:03:02.000

supported him obviously. And that was the year that Ann Richards also ran for governor. And she beat him in the Texas primary.

01:03:02.460 - 01:03:13.400

So he cost me a lot of money! But eventually, long story short, I wound up benefiting from that in the long run. But that was kind of the early stages of how I got involved politically.

01:03:13.400 - 01:03:26.650

But there was, there was actually a race before that. If you want me to talk a little bit about that, how I got involved in politics. Again, it was through my mentor, Charlie Moore, my– my– my put my professional mentor, he was the one who has

01:03:27.520 - 01:03:40.540

probably been the most instrumental in directing and redirecting– redirecting the trajectory of my career. I owe him a debt of gratitude. He passed away about two years

01:03:40.540 - 01:03:56.280

ago, unfortunately, died an untimely death from cancer. But he was the one who got me involved. What happened was, I started to get involved with the Asian American community in the 19, around 1988, ‘87,

01:03:56.300 - 01:04:10.760

‘88. And I think I-I-I wrote about it a little bit in that talk I gave you before in 1992, in Washington before the national Asian Pacific American Bar Association.

01:04:11.610 - 01:04:26.170

But what happened was, I started– I started to become very active in the– in the Asian American community, because the city council was starting to redraw districts. And there was a clamor,

01:04:26.200 - 01:04:39.340

there was —you have to understand there were no Asian American elected officials anywhere, either in Houston Harris County or the entire state of Texas, except for one individual who was a friend of our family, a state

01:04:39.370 - 01:04:54.750

legislator from San Antonio named Tom Lee, who was an old friend of our family. He was the only elected official, Chinese American, who we knew of growing up. And my– my parents, my father and his brothers were

01:04:54.780 - 01:05:08.590

all very politically active as we grew up. Okay. I-I-I became very politically aware as a child because my father was involved in a lot of political campaigns primarily for city

01:05:08.590 - 01:05:18.860

offices. But he was active, too, because he had a city contract. And he wanted to support people for Mayor that he knew at City Council. He also got involved in

01:05:19.170 - 01:05:31.890

raising money for statewide candidates, was very good friends with a guy named Ben Barnes, who was, who became lieutenant governor. And my Uncle Albert was very politically involved.

01:05:33.000 - 01:05:45.830

He was good close friends with John Connolly. I do remember that. And– and they all you know, knew the mayor of Houston, we knew who the mayor of Houston was. I remember meeting the mayor of Houston when I was a child.

01:05:46.350 - 01:05:57.440

And they knew who the succession of mayors were. And we also knew who they didn't like as mayor, as they grew up as well. And so they were on the outs at that time and they kind of bit their teeth because somebody became mayor they didn't

01:05:57.440 - 01:06:10.560

like. So we were– we were exposed to all that at an early age. So at this point in my life, when I was an adult back in Houston, of course, my father was no longer around. I still became aware politically of what was going on.

01:06:10.810 - 01:06:25.320

My two brothers were also very actively involved, my younger brother– my younger brother especially, began taking a much more active role than I, in raising money for Mayor, mayoral candidates, even before I did, and sponsoring

01:06:26.380 - 01:06:37.890

fundraising events, things like that. He assumed more of the leadership mantle for our family, as opposed to me, I didn't have the time. I was too busy practicing law.

01:06:38.480 - 01:06:49.290

And he was one that was much more community oriented at the time. So anyway, I-I-I did begin to get involved in the City Council redistricting process in Houston.

01:06:50.740 - 01:07:02.730

And about that time, a bipartisan organization in the Asian American community was formed. It was a– it was a just a hodgepodge of different ethnic, Asian ethnic

01:07:02.730 - 01:07:19.620

communities. It was Chinese American, a few, a handful of Korean Americans, some Vietnamese Americans, a few Pakistani Americans, and that was about it. And it was called the Asian American Coalition.

01:07:20.910 - 01:07:32.830

It was– it was bipartisan. Martha Wong was the chair, and I was the vice chair. So I worked very closely with Martha at the time. And, you know, Marty eventually ran for office herself.

01:07:33.520 - 01:07:47.020

But I didn't really have any designs of entering public service, quite frankly, my interest was basically trying to, in some fashion give back. And I mean that seriously, I just didn't know where this was all headed.

01:07:47.630 - 01:07:59.360

I knew that the community needed leadership, I knew there was a vacuum. I decided for the first time of my life to step out of my comfort zone, and utilize my background as a lawyer with somebody who had some credibility.

01:08:00.370 - 01:08:14.700

By that time. I had left the old law firm, what happened was that law firm fell apart. And Charlie and two or three other partners and me as a senior associate, started the Houston Office of Akin Gump.

01:08:15.530 - 01:08:31.120

And Akin Gump was a very politically prominent firm, headed by Bob Strauss, who was a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, very well known nationally. And so I became exposed to that law firm and its capabilities and met a lot of people,

01:08:31.700 - 01:08:42.660

not just in Houston, but in Dallas and in the Washington DC office. And by that time, I was spending a lot of time actually in Washington, flying to Washington trying cases and taking

01:08:43.910 - 01:09:00.100

literally, taking a corporate jets back and forth, the clients corporate jets back and forth between Houston and Washington. Doing trials I mean, one time I was living out of a hotel in Washington, flying back to Houston on weekends and

01:09:00.100 - 01:09:13.680

hopping back on a– on a Learjet, out of the private airport near Intercontinental on Sunday afternoon and starting all over again. So you know, wash, rinse, repeat. So that was the lifestyle I was living at the time.

01:09:14.170 - 01:09:29.170

It was just really a heady lifestyle, chauffeur driven limousine to and from airports, you know, living in nice hotels, spending time in trial war rooms, for the, for the law firm. We represented a pipeline client before the federal government at the

01:09:29.170 - 01:09:40.680

time. And so that was life seven. But what– what it told me was that I had a capability that I, that I knew few people had, and so I was putting it for use, so for the better of the community. People didn't know exactly what I

01:09:40.680 - 01:09:48.710

did in the Asian American community, all they knew was that I was with a large law firm. They figured this guy must know something; he could speak. He can give interviews to the news media.

01:09:49.580 - 01:09:59.840

He can talk on our behalf. When we testified before the city council on our proposal for an Asian impact district, they asked me to go speak in front of City Council.

01:10:00.500 - 01:10:14.650

So we had that and then, about that time in 1988, there was a young 15 year old Vietnamese boy who was killed by two skinheads. His name was, I still remember his name, Hung Truong was his name, the little– little boy.

01:10:15.480 - 01:10:33.360

And the community was in agony, and in despair because this young child was killed by two white supremacists. And so they asked me and Martha to go talk to the prosecutor, to make sure that—to the family— to make sure that the full force of the

01:10:33.360 - 01:10:49.690

county would be to prosecute the two alleged assailants in that case. I remember going to visit with the district attorney's office, I remember a very touching conversation we had with the father of the young boy.

01:10:50.500 - 01:11:05.960

And I wrote about that in that speech I gave. And that was to me was an epiphany, personally for the value I would bring to the community, and the importance of community activism for people who are needing

01:11:06.900 - 01:11:22.400

guidance, spiritual guidance, as well as community guidance on where to go, who– who were not, by virtue of language or culture, able to call upon the resources of the community. So that was, you know, it's not something that I sought.

01:11:22.970 - 01:11:37.570

It was thrust in my face, and I wound up becoming the spokesperson for this organization for the community out of– out of that traumatic event. And eventually use that—several years later, when I testified, for

01:11:37.770 - 01:11:50.350

the state enactment of a hate crime statute. This was after I joined state government when it came up, but I began the process, working with the Anti-Defamation League on behalf of the Asian community at that early stage.

01:11:50.350 - 01:12:04.710

And so that was around the late 1980s. And then after that, I got politically—I wasn't really that partisan involved; I was a Democrat, I began supporting some, you know, on a very limited basis, some candidates for office.

01:12:05.220 - 01:12:17.770

At that time, there was a city, there was a race for– for mayor. My mentor was very active in supporting a gentleman named Fred Hofheinz, who was trying

01:12:17.770 - 01:12:32.350

to stage a political comeback. Fred had served as mayor of Houston in the 1970s, when he was in his early 30s. And by this time, Fred was, I think, in his early 50s, and was trying to stage a comeback running against an

01:12:32.350 - 01:12:46.000

incumbent mayor, who at that time was Kathy Whitmire. And so I wound up becoming part of the finance team. Because Charlie was asking me for, to contribute money since I worked for him. Of course I would.

01:12:46.000 - 01:12:56.590

And so I got invited to finance committee, committee events, and political strategy events on running for mayor. And Fred had

01:12:56.770 - 01:13:13.340

hired a political campaign consultant that nobody had ever heard of, who was a guy who spoke in a– in a Louisiana accent, wore t-shirts, jeans, and tennis shoes. And his name was James Carville, who later—whose

01:13:15.660 - 01:13:28.790

claim to fame was helping engineer the victory of Bill Clinton to win the presidency of the United States in 1992. This was 1998, excuse me, 1988. About four years before that.

01:13:29.500 - 01:13:41.110

James had had some successful campaigns and a number of unsuccessful campaigns. So I still remember some of the things he would say at the campaign briefings, but I learned a lot just listening to him.

01:13:41.710 - 01:13:58.740

And that's when I really caught the political bug because I could see the inside out of a political campaign right then and there. And then, at that point, I—the mayor's race was– was, it's a nonpartisan race, but I—and so a lot of the Republicans that I met, were

01:13:58.740 - 01:14:11.200

wanting me to become more active in the Republican Party. They asked me to basically consider becoming, you know, becoming more active in the party, even maybe even running as a candidate. I got approached by an old friend of mine that I got to meet,

01:14:11.780 - 01:14:24.100

an old friend now, but back then I only knew him just very briefly—got to know him during that campaign; his name was Glenn Gondo. And you may know Glenn, very longtime community leader, Glenn came up to me, he's

01:14:24.100 - 01:14:36.300

a big Republican. Glenn said, “Bob,” he said, “You really should, you know, join the Republican Party, I would urge them to run you for office, whatever you want to do, you're the exact right person we need.” I said, “Glenn, I

01:14:36.300 - 01:14:48.470

don't want to disappoint you, but I think I'm a Democrat.” And then he said, “Okay,” he said, back then it was there was a Republican organization called the Texas Asian Republican Caucus, he wanted me to become active in that.

01:14:48.720 - 01:15:01.550

He said– he said, “Well, join the equivalent of TARC for Democrats.” I said, “Glenn, there is no equivalent for TARC, there is no Asian Democrats.” He said, “Well then form one.” I said, “Oh, really?” “Yeah,

01:15:02.070 - 01:15:17.750

form one.” I said, “Okay, well, let me– let me– let me think about that.” And so out of that experience, I talked to a lot of the other predominantly Chinese Americans that I knew. And some Vietnamese Americans who were closet Democrats, who were

01:15:17.750 - 01:15:28.560

interested in joining us, forming groups. We actually formed a group; we call ourselves the Harris County Asian American Democrats. And we became very active in 1990.

01:15:28.660 - 01:15:40.760

We were formed in the summer of 1990. And by that time, I had run for to become a state delegate. For the state Democratic Convention, I think they met, it was in San Antonio that year.

01:15:41.610 - 01:15:54.770

And after that, I met a lot of people there, I was the only—I think I was only one of two Asian American delegates at that state convention. But what happened was when I got back to Houston, I was

01:15:54.790 - 01:16:05.270

contacted by one of the people who I had met during the campaign, during the convention, who was a Harris County representative for a guy running for Attorney General named Dan Morales.

01:16:05.940 - 01:16:20.740

Dan was a Latino state representative from San Antonio, making his first run at State Office. So they asked me if I could do a lunch with Dan. So I took Dan out to lunch at my local

01:16:20.790 - 01:16:33.450

Athletic Club, it was called the Texas Club, downtown Houston. That's what I went to go work out and, you know, host people for business lunches there. So took Dan out to this nice lunch, modest lunch at the Texas Club, got to

01:16:33.450 - 01:16:47.280

meet him. He asked me to join this campaign. So now I was involved big time with the guy running for attorney general. And so we talked with him, and they wanted to do something with the Asian community to show their

01:16:47.280 - 01:17:00.190

support. I talked to my friends. Actually, by that time, I don't even think we ever actually had an organization or name. We were just a group of us who wanted to do a fundraiser for Dan. So that's when we formed this Harris

01:17:00.190 - 01:17:11.460

County Asian American Democrats. And we did a fundraiser for Dan, I remember. It was—we didn't raise that much money. We raised $5,000, which back then was you know, it was

01:17:11.460 - 01:17:22.950

okay. You know, not, you know, by today's standards, it's, you know, kind of a drop in the bucket. But what we did was, we tried to find a place that would make a big splash.

01:17:22.950 - 01:17:38.340

And this is what we learned that politics is smoke and mirrors, right? It's the optics. So we decided to have tried to find a place of venue that would really be the talk of the town. There was a guy named Larry Wong from Hong Kong, who

01:17:38.360 - 01:17:52.420

had purchased a mid level office building in southwest Houston right off the Southwest freeway that was sold at bankruptcy, and had once been owned by an oil man who went bust.

01:17:53.100 - 01:18:04.810

And Larry had owned the entire office building. And he had a penthouse on the top of the building that was constructed by the– by the oil man who went bust. Iit was —we wanted to go visit the

01:18:04.810 - 01:18:18.980

penthouse, it was really, really lavish. It had its own outdoor swimming pool, if you can believe that, on the top of this building, along with a winding staircase, an upper level, and a sunken conversation pit. And, you know, so we

01:18:18.980 - 01:18:30.880

said, this is the place we want to do our fundraisers. So we put out flyers and notices. And we advertised it. We're going to do a fundraiser for Dan Morales, the next Attorney General, in this penthouse.

01:18:33.470 - 01:18:49.130

And so we had a really great turnout. I remember we had not only Dan was there, gave a great talk. We had members of city council, who all showed up. I remember, Sheila Jackson Lee came up to me, she was on

01:18:49.130 - 01:18:58.740

city council at the time. And she came up to me and pulled me aside, I gotten to know Sheila at committee events and she said, “Bob,” she said, “I want you to do a fundraiser for me at this place, too.”

01:19:02.270 - 01:19:14.870

And so, the irony is that Dan's opponent was a guy, a Republican state senator, was actually my state senator named Buster Brown. And this was in the middle of his

01:19:14.910 - 01:19:30.220

district. Literally, Buster was a nice guy. Later on, Buster introduced me for my Senate confirmation when I got appointed the PUC. So there's, you know, no harsh feelings. But we– we did Dan's fundraiser in the middle of his

01:19:30.220 - 01:19:42.600

opponent's district. And we made a huge splash. And that's when we debuted this Asian American democratic organization that I'm proud to say that that organization has grown. Ever since I left Houston.

01:19:43.150 - 01:19:56.370

I have actually become I've– I've– I've done things with them over the course of the last 30 years. It's now 30 years old, and most recently really got to know the current leadership during the last campaign cycle and actually made some

01:19:56.370 - 01:20:03.510

contributions through them. So they can do a lot of grassroots work. And they– they're really up and running. Now they're all over the state.

01:20:03.890 - 01:20:14.820

They have chapters all over the state. Sometime after that, that election we changed our name to, from Harris County Asian American Democrats, I suggested that you want to think big, let's call

01:20:14.820 - 01:20:27.460

ourselves the Asian American Democrats of Texas. It goes by AADT. And that's the name that still, they still bear today. AADT is their moniker. And when I met the current leadership, I explained to them how they got the name.

01:20:28.190 - 01:20:41.420

And these young kids were just really blown over when I shared with them the history of how it all began. So that's kind of—they're– they're kind of like my baby now. I feel, I tell them, I'm kind of like the parent who was there at birth, that became

01:20:41.640 - 01:20:52.810

the– the– the parent who deserted them at birth. But now I've come– I've come back to be united to the family, with a family virtually. And I've gotten to know some of them in Houston as well as in Austin and in Dallas.

01:20:53.040 - 01:21:06.030

So it's been a—it's really been a hot been a warm feeling to be reunited with all these people that are now very active members. Some of them are elected officials. And all of them are very sophisticated grassroots activists who know– know

01:21:06.030 - 01:21:16.130

how to use social media, and IT communications to get, for messaging, and– and to raise the level of awareness. So that's kind of my that's

01:21:16.130 - 01:21:32.510

one of the legacies I want to leave behind in Texas, long after I'm gone. What a– What a great story, and I love your observation of politics is all smoke and mirror. I did support in the last round was just several Asian American candidates to Sri Kulkarni.

01:21:32.730 - 01:21:43.400

Sri Preston Kulkarni, _____ who's a personal friend, and Raj Salhotra for the city council. I know, candidates are– are just amazing people, and let's just hope they will win.

01:21:43.760 - 01:21:54.910

I'm afraid our time is up right now. But this is such a good— I spent all the time just sharing all these anecdotes, didn't really talk about my experience in Washington or

01:21:54.910 - 01:22:07.300

even my experience at the PSE. That'll be the next conversation then. Yeah. And then we want to know about your family and I don't know how you met your wife, your children. So Ann we'll come back with another schedule and I'll be

01:22:08.200 - 01:22:22.840

if you have time, we can schedule several sessions after this. Make sure you— Hi, everyone, Today is March 12 2021.

01:22:23.320 - 01:22:38.810

We have here Program Manager of Houston Asian American Archive, Dr. Anne Chao to continue interviewing Robert Gee. Thank you so much. Thank you, Bob, again for allowing us to interview for the second time.

01:22:38.860 - 01:22:48.550

And I know today we will talk about your work in Texas. And we finished the last interview with your involvement with the Asian American Democratic Texas.

01:22:49.090 - 01:23:05.020

We want to know now your involvement with the Utility Commission's where the first one you joined was a national association of regulatory utility commissioners. So would you like to talk to us more about these experiences? Sure, I'll be happy to let me just start off by saying that,

01:23:05.640 - 01:23:22.680

I think I explained to you already how I managed to become a candidate for appointment. When I was at my law firm, in my last interview, and what happened was, I

01:23:22.680 - 01:23:40.700

had already begun working with the Governor's Office, after she was elected— by she, I mean, Ann Richards, was elected governor— and was a trusted volunteer for her senior staff to help recruit Asian Americans to serve

01:23:40.700 - 01:23:55.610

in state government in a number of, of part time boards and commissions. And so as a consequence of that, I cultivated a pretty good relationship with her office.

01:23:55.890 - 01:24:11.810

And they knew me as a, as a trusted confidant to give them, and to help recruit a number of candidates. And so I had already been approached by my law firm, to see if I was interested in becoming appointed to the commission.

01:24:12.940 - 01:24:26.270

It wasn't anything that I had pursued originally. And I said yes. And so I began the process of positioning myself as a, as a potential candidate.

01:24:26.270 - 01:24:38.810

I helped to retire the governor's campaign debt right after she was elected. And what I was told was, that did not guarantee me an appointment because you don't buy an office.

01:24:39.430 - 01:24:55.060

But what it does is give you some visibility, which, which I was able to do, quite successfully with the, with the help of the Asian American community, they helped me raise a substantial sum of money to help retire a portion of the governor's outstanding

01:24:55.060 - 01:25:12.480

campaign debt. And so people within the political circles in Austin knew me both as a, as somebody who has played a role on the finance side as well as somebody who was with a major law firm, who could serve as a resource.

01:25:13.430 - 01:25:29.040

And over a period of months, I continued work at my law firm, but also was served as a volunteer to help the Governor's Office staff up what was called the New Texas, which is to bring people to state government who,

01:25:29.460 - 01:25:41.420

from communities that had never been represented, and the Asian American community was, was– was one of them. At that time, the Asian American community was, I think, from a statistical standpoint, we were probably

01:25:41.420 - 01:25:57.470

still less than 1% of the Texas population; there was an estimate that we could grow to 2% over the next decade. So that's where we were as a– as a community. And there just weren't that there was no there was no

01:25:57.710 - 01:26:10.660

representation by any Asian American above the level of county judge, a county— excuse me— county court at law judge in Harris County. And that person was Hannah Chow.

01:26:11.320 - 01:26:25.480

Hannah Chow was the highest elected statewide official of Asian ancestry in the state of Texas, as a county court at law judge in Harris County. And she was an old friend of mine.

01:26:26.390 - 01:26:38.990

And so it came in handy because when I eventually got appointed by the governor, I asked Hannah to swear me in at the swearing in ceremony— you can see the photograph of Hannah in her judicial robes

01:26:38.990 - 01:26:53.710

that day, swearing– swearing me in and the governor was standing off to the side. But in any event, there just wasn't any representation. There had been one state legislator who had served representing Sta— San Antonio and the early 60s.

01:26:55.440 - 01:27:03.660

State Representative Thomas J. Lee. We called him TJ or I called him Uncle Tom. My parents called him TJ.

01:27:03.750 - 01:27:18.800

He was a, he was a dear friend of our family, and he actually attended my swearing-in ceremony, and I introduced him to Governor Richards. And I don't know if that was among the photos that I sent you, but I certainly do have a photo of him, taken with

01:27:18.800 - 01:27:36.740

us that day. And in fact, in my, my, my speech that I gave, my remarks I gave on that occasion, I recognize State Representative Lee as being the only Asian American ever elected to the Texas Legislature in Texas

01:27:36.740 - 01:27:49.980

history. And I was happy to see him be with us on the day I was sworn into office. So anyway, so what happened was, I positioned myself with the Governor's Office, knowing that there would be a

01:27:49.980 - 01:28:04.850

vacancy that would open up on the State Utility Commission, after the end of August of 1991. And so I was looking forward to a time when, when that seat potentially opened up, there was an incumbent Democrat who

01:28:04.850 - 01:28:13.620

served in that seat. She actually had expressed interest in staying. But there was a rumor that the governor wanted really to bring in different people.

01:28:14.190 - 01:28:26.530

So I continued to keep myself viable for that appointment. And then, as the days went on, I, you know, paid attention to what was going on, trying to keep close to the rumor mill, these were

01:28:26.930 - 01:28:42.620

pre-internet days, we did have emails, but there was no such thing as, as a web browser, or a, or anybody — nobody really had access to what was called an internet. That didn't come along, that actually didn't come along

01:28:42.620 - 01:28:57.140

until I was on the Public Utility Commission. So much of our intelligence was gathered by phone. You know, just talking to people in Austin would call me periodically, me calling them... that sort of thing, all while, you know,

01:28:57.200 - 01:29:14.530

all from my law office in Houston. But anyway, one day, I got a phone call from the Governor's appointments' director, who called me to let me know that it was a very competitive process, and

01:29:14.830 - 01:29:30.870

not to get my hopes up, because the governor had a lot of friends who had been waiting to be appointed to major positions. And she feels very strongly about her friends. And though my, although my efforts were deeply appreciated, there was, you know, they

01:29:30.870 - 01:29:41.290

wanted me to not to have any elevated expectation that I was going to be appointed to, to that, to that position. Then I said, "Fine. I understand."

01:29:41.770 - 01:29:58.320

And I understand that there were a number of, of incumbent office holders who were seeking that position. There were some judges, I was told; one or two state representatives; a number of people from different communities

01:29:58.400 - 01:30:10.250

around the state. But one thing happened and I'll go ahead and share it to you. Well, I got a phone call from some State Senator Rodney Ellis, who heard that my name was in the mix.

01:30:11.170 - 01:30:25.500

And he called me up, and I had met Rodney during the campaign trail in 1990. And he said, he said, "Bob," he said, "I understand they're looking at you for appointment to the Public Utility Commission." I said, "Yes." He said, "I want

01:30:25.500 - 01:30:34.700

to help you." He said, "We need to get a person of color on that commission. We've never had one." He said, "There's nobody from our community, African American community who's got your background.

01:30:35.850 - 01:30:51.560

You are it. So we want to back you." And I said, "I appreciate that." He said, "So let me see what I can do to help you out." And so that was a start of a friendship that has endured even to this day, professionally, of many, many years.

01:30:51.970 - 01:31:01.690

And Senator Ellis is now serving in the Harris County Commissioners court, but he was vital. His support was instrumental. He was very close to Ann Richards.

01:31:02.360 - 01:31:16.730

He was probably the highest ranking state official in Harris County at the time she was elected, who was when, when within the inner circle for the campaign team, to so, so to have his support was, was, was key to my getting

01:31:16.730 - 01:31:28.710

appointed. But anyway, so I had been told by the Governor's Office that I should not have any elevated expectation, that's what, this is going to happen. And I said, "Fine. I'll just, you know, continue doing what I'm doing." I was

01:31:28.710 - 01:31:45.890

somewhat disappointed. But it's politics, nothing personal. Anyway, a few weeks went by, and I got another call again, from the Governor's Appointments Director and he said, he said, "What are you doing next Tuesday a week

01:31:46.230 - 01:32:01.840

from now?" I said, um, "I have no, no plans." He says, "Quietly buy a ticket to hop on a plane and come to visit us." He said, "You're going to, you're going to have a come-to-Jesus talk with Governor Richards." I said,

01:32:01.890 - 01:32:17.420

"Really?" He said, "Yes." He said, "Do not tell the news media. Do not tell anybody that this is happening. If you do, you're going to, you're through." And I said, "Hey, you know, no problem." So I bought a ticket, hopped on a

01:32:17.420 - 01:32:34.900

plane early that morning, went to the Governor's Office. I remember going into the, into her reception area. And there was somebody sitting at a desk where I had to wait to be led into her office. And this is the official office of

01:32:34.900 - 01:32:45.730

the governor that's inside the state capitol, I remember that. And was ushered in. And there just, there weren't that many people there. It was, I walked in, sat in a

01:32:45.730 - 01:33:01.550

chair next to the receptionist. And she finally said, “The governor will see you.” So I walked in. And she greeted me at the door, at the door, as I walked in and shook my hand, asked me how I was doing, I said, "I'm doing great." And she said, "Would you like, would

01:33:01.550 - 01:33:12.000

you, would you like anything to drink? Can I get you anything?" And I said, "Well, you know, maybe a glass of water might be nice." So she went back to the kitchen, actually brought out a glass of water for me. And I just kept thinking this is really

01:33:12.000 - 01:33:26.290

strange. I'm being waited on by the Governor of Texas, to have a conversation. So anyway, so we sat down, the only other person there; I don't think she was there at the time. She was asked to join later in the meeting.

01:33:26.290 - 01:33:40.940

But the other– other person that was eventually invited to join was the Governor's Chief of Staff, a woman who later became a very dear friend of mine. But anyway, so she began a

01:33:40.940 - 01:33:53.990

conversation, she sat down, she had a, had my, my file in front of her I remember sitting at a table next to her desk, she opened the file, looked at it, looked at my bio, looked at my, you know, support, and she looked up at

01:33:53.990 - 01:34:07.260

me. And at the time, the Public Utility Commission was a very troubled state agency. I hate to say it, but you know, almost reminiscent of what's going on today with the Texas power crisis. But it had a reputation of the

01:34:07.260 - 01:34:22.750

members having very acrimonious public disputes, with a lot of negative press, particularly between a couple of the commissioners, one Democrat and one Republican who were quite acrimonious, but even between the

01:34:22.750 - 01:34:39.150

Republicans, there were two Republicans there, they didn't get along, either. And so the governor looked up at me and said, she said, "Now tell me again, why do you want this job?" And I said, "You know, I, I've worked

01:34:39.150 - 01:34:52.420

my entire life in the private sector, except for serving in government once at the federal level. And I feel like it's something that I can do to give back to the community." And she said, "Well you know that, that place has got a

01:34:52.420 - 01:35:04.890

lot of problems." And I said, "I know, I'm familiar with that. I read the papers, too." She said, "It won't be easy." But I said, "No, no, I'm fully aware of that." And so then she called in her Chief of Staff, who sat down.

01:35:05.920 - 01:35:17.500

And her chief of staff was even more skeptical. She looked at my biography, and you know, she said, I remember her looking at me pointedly and saying, "You know, you work for a major law firm.

01:35:18.380 - 01:35:32.410

Okay, here we are, are what we're about here in– in the Governor's Office, and in the state of, leading the state of Texas is representing the people who are not powerful. The average citizen. You're

01:35:32.410 - 01:35:46.760

going to be, if we appoint you, if Governor Richards appoints you to the Public Utility Commission, what guarantee do we have that you will look after the–the–the welfare of the people of Texas who are not wealthy and

01:35:46.760 - 01:35:59.160

powerful?" And what I said to her, I just thought about it. And I said, "Well, you know, I know you're looking at my affiliation with this law firm, right?" I mean, Akin Gump, which is a very prominent law firm, and everybody

01:35:59.160 - 01:36:10.710

knew that, very powerful, very influential. And I just said, "You know, I, when I first graduated from law school, I could not work at that law firm; they wouldn't hire people like me. Not that particular law firm, but any large law

01:36:10.960 - 01:36:23.150

firm, it was really off limits to me. I've spent 16 years in the profession, I work– work hard to attain that stature of my professional achievement just to get to that law firm today.

01:36:23.900 - 01:36:37.260

So I really don't have any apologies for being with– with this law firm. The other thing is, if you look at my full work history, you will see that out of the 16

01:36:37.260 - 01:36:54.160

years or so that I've been in, been in law, 10 of that, almost 10 years, a decade, I've actually served in, in the government. I served at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, the Interstate Commerce Commission, I was

01:36:54.160 - 01:37:09.400

in public service for decades." And I said, "I can also tell you that when I was at, in the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, my role was to litigate against the major utilities, over

01:37:10.130 - 01:37:21.570

gas– gas rates to make sure that they were reasonable and affordable to the customers. So I've been in the role of, you know, acting as a safeguard to the public interest.

01:37:22.220 - 01:37:40.180

To me, that's what defines me; not the current job that I currently enjoy with this law firm." And so I must have said something correct. You know, the governor looked at me and looked at her Chief of Staff and she, I remember she, she looked at my, at my

01:37:40.300 - 01:37:52.520

portfolio and closed it looked up at me and said, she looked at it was just kind of surreal. She said, "Okay." She said, "You're going to get to come back to Austin.

01:37:53.000 - 01:38:07.100

You're looking forward to it?" I said, "Hey, you know, if I have to move back to Austin, I'm willing to do that." She said, "Okay. We're gonna be in touch. Have a great day." So I got up to leave, and I was kind of stunned.

01:38:07.100 - 01:38:18.900

I thought, well, you know, did she just make a decision right there? So I was ushered out, I was met at the door by the Governor, Governor's Appointments Director, he actually had been, been standing off to the side.

01:38:18.900 - 01:38:27.350

He wasn't seated with us at the table, I remember. But he was seated off in a chair in the room listening. And so he was by the door. And so he ushered me out.

01:38:27.350 - 01:38:43.490

And so I walked out of the door of the governor's office with him, and I said, "Did she just appoint me to the commission?" He said, "No." He said, "You thought– you thought you may have heard that. But that wasn't the case." I said, "Seriously?" He said, "No." He said, "She's

01:38:43.490 - 01:38:56.790

gonna– she's gonna make some other phone calls right now. We'll get back to you." And I said, "Okay." And he said, "Oh, by the way, you're not supposed to tell anybody you had this conversation, right?" I said, "Yeah, no, no

01:38:56.790 - 01:39:12.020

problem." So I remember going back home, and I told my wife what had just transpired, and she said, "Well, what happened?" I said, "Well, it's just sort of the kind of strange, I thought the Governor offered me the job. And then her staff told me no." So I don't know what to expect

01:39:12.020 - 01:39:26.840

at this point. And so I remember going back to the office, and then about a week later, I get a phone call. Again, again, it's from the governor's office. And then it was the

01:39:26.840 - 01:39:38.230

Appointments Director, and he said, he says, "Are you are you somewhere private? Can you close the door?" I said, "I'm right in my office, I'll close the door." He said, "Fine." So I close the door. He says, "Okay," he says, he

01:39:38.230 - 01:39:52.790

says, "You know, next Thursday, you and whoever you want to bring with you are going to hop on a plane. And you're going to be at the Governor’s office at 10am. And we're going to have a press conference." And he said,

01:39:52.790 - 01:40:04.650

"At the press conference, the governor is going to announce you." He says, "The next person you're going to get a phone call from is the governor's press secretary. You're going to talk to him.

01:40:05.220 - 01:40:17.470

He's going to give you all the details, and you're going to show up in Austin," he says, "You're not to tell anybody that we had this conversation." I said, "Sure." And he says, "Only share this with those people that

01:40:17.470 - 01:40:33.790

you need to share it with, like your immediate family or whatever. And keep this under wraps.” I said no problem. So what happened was I, when I told my wife that it was about to happen, I do remember that on the day we decided to take off, I did

01:40:33.790 - 01:40:47.560

bring with me besides my wife, there was a woman who did public– public affairs, public relations work that was a friend of mine. I got to know her on some of the political campaigns in Harris County and in Houston.

01:40:48.190 - 01:41:01.900

And I asked her to come to, come with me, because she was more expert at, at sort of coaching me in terms of what to expect at a press conference, you

01:41:01.900 - 01:41:13.800

know, what to say in my public marks. And I remember, on the plane to Austin, we drafted a statement, a member, it was a very short statement. And she timed it. She took out a stopwatch.

01:41:14.360 - 01:41:28.750

And it was a statement of acknowledging thanks to the governor for my appointment, you know, what I want to do for the state of Texas. It was very, you know, like three sentences. And we, she had me repeat it several times, while I was on the plane to Austin.

01:41:29.250 - 01:41:43.240

It came in good stead because, you know, what happened was we wound up at the, at the, at the governor's office, I remember the Press Secretary met me. And it was— excuse me, he was the Deputy Press Secretary at the time.

01:41:44.170 - 01:41:54.900

And he was going to take me to the governor's reception room. And I'm trying to remember exactly where it was. Was it the reception room? Anyway,

01:41:54.900 - 01:42:07.080

there was an area where they do press conferences. And suddenly, I saw the governor come up to me and I wanted to say hi, but she was too busy. She was actually angry at the Deputy Press Secretary because he didn't do a very

01:42:07.080 - 01:42:18.910

good job on a speech that she-he had been writing for her. So she started berating him right in front of me. So I'm just standing there, watching all this and I'm thinking, “I must be an insider now,

01:42:19.280 - 01:42:30.920

since she's letting me see all this stuff.” So I said hi to her. She said hi to me. She says, "I'll see you in 15 minutes, Bob." I said, "Okay. Thank you, Governor." So they told me in the back, they coached me a little bit about what

01:42:30.920 - 01:42:41.230

to expect, they told me, ”You know, be very careful what you say to the press, you're gonna make it make a statement, you have a statement in front of you.” I said, "Yes." They said, "Okay, the governor is going to get up, she's gonna say some great things

01:42:41.230 - 01:42:53.150

about you that she's going to, you know, turn the microphone over to you. And you're going to say a few words, and you're gonna take questions from the press. And it should be over at about, you know, no more than 15, 20

01:42:53.150 - 01:43:08.600

minutes tops." And I said, "Fine." And so that's what happened. It was probably one of the most surreal experiences of my life going there and getting announced. And I do remember, we had already planned that day,

01:43:09.320 - 01:43:21.290

not only to have the press conference that announced my appointment that morning, but there was a welcome reception at the governor's mansion that evening. And I shared with you the photographs of that.

01:43:21.370 - 01:43:30.190

And she invited all of her supporters from the Asian American community from throughout the state, who many of whom were actually very close friends of mine, to come to attend.

01:43:30.660 - 01:43:48.060

And this was the opportunity for her to announce to them and meet with them to hail my appointment, as representing the Asian American community. And so I remember what happened was after the press conference, we– we decided to go ahead and get a hotel room

01:43:48.300 - 01:44:05.720

for me to stay in. It was a hotel suite, next to, next, the University of Texas campus, near the state capitol. And so we retired back to my hotel suite, my wife, me, my friend,, who is the PR expert.

01:44:07.080 - 01:44:19.440

And we actually started getting calls. I remember, I, first of all, I was told by them to go back to the, to the bedroom, take a nap. Because it was going to be a long day, we'd gotten up very

01:44:19.440 - 01:44:27.410

early that day to hop on the plane. And they said, "You're gonna have a long day, Bob. So why don't you go go lay down, take a nap?" Which I tried to do, I laid down.

01:44:27.950 - 01:44:38.020

And then I remember them knocking on the door. And I said, "What?" And they said, "You've got a radio interview right now." I said, "You're kidding me?" They said, "No," I said, "I just got appointed.

01:44:38.650 - 01:44:48.700

I hadn't been sworn in yet. But I have an interview?" They said, "Yeah, there's a radio station that called the governor's Press Office, took an incoming request for an interview for you. And they

01:44:48.700 - 01:45:04.190

directed them to you, to, they got your number, they gave me, gave them your number. And you've got to, you got a live feed now to a radio interview. You got..." I said, "Do I have to do it?" "Yeah, you got to do it." So I went, I got up out of my bed, walked over to the telephone.

01:45:04.190 - 01:45:11.750

And I actually did a live interview right there. You know, I just been announced that day. It was that afternoon. So I did the interview.

01:45:12.350 - 01:45:23.160

And I remember they they started asking me questions about, "What are you going to do about high utility bills and that sort of thing?" And I tried to come up with something that was, you know, non committal, but politic, something

01:45:23.160 - 01:45:33.670

to that effect. But anyway, that was really fascinating. So anyway, what happened was later that evening, around five o'clock or so, we all went over to the governor's mansion. I remember it was a wonderful day.

01:45:33.830 - 01:45:46.310

It was... I'm trying to remember, it was October I think... 1991. So it was a fall day in Austin. And the weather was wonderful.

01:45:46.310 - 01:46:00.190

The sun was starting to set and the governor was there. Lena Guerrero, who was the chairman of the Texas Railroad Commission was there, and said hello to her. I did not really know her that well.

01:46:01.210 - 01:46:16.260

She was a state representative, who was a major supporter of Ann Richards’ campaign for governor. And there was a vacancy on our Texas Railroad Commission at the time, and Ann had just appointed her about a year earlier to fill out a

01:46:16.260 - 01:46:29.480

vacancy. The vacancy was created, I believe, when one of the incumbent, wound up being, filling the unexpired term of Lloyd Benson was serving the United States Senate.

01:46:30.220 - 01:46:42.290

So there was a vacancy that opened up in the Railroad Commission. She was designated the chair, so she was there. And so it was really, really nice to have both the incoming commissioner, and I didn't know I was going to be chair eventually.

01:46:42.290 - 01:46:51.840

But Governor, Governor Richards appointee to the Public Utility Commission, Governor Richard's appointee to the Railroad Commission, we were all there, along with the representatives of the Asian American community.

01:46:52.650 - 01:47:05.440

I do remember the Governor came up to me when I got to the reception. This is an interesting, this is how Ann Richards works. She always finds a way to make light of something you've shared with her publicly, at your

01:47:05.440 - 01:47:17.830

expense. And so she came up to me and said, "How are you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm doing fine." She says, "Are you feeling good?" I said, "I'm feeling great, governor." She said, "What do you do after– after I saw you this

01:47:17.830 - 01:47:33.190

morning?" I said, "Well," I said, "We got a hotel room here and I went to go take a nap." You know, big, big mistake, right? So she kind of laughed it off. And then so, when it came time for her to make remarks to the

01:47:33.190 - 01:47:48.000

group, I remember her getting up and saying, she said, "I want to tell you, we had a really great day for Texas, and for the Asian American community. As you all know, I just announced that I've appointed Bob Gee to– to be my

01:47:48.080 - 01:48:01.590

appointee to the Public Utility Commission of Texas. And I gotta tell you that after, after Bob and I did the press conference this morning, Bob, Bob went back to go take a nap. Bob, this is a tough job.

01:48:01.940 - 01:48:11.340

If you can't take 15 minutes of a press conference, it's gonna be a long term for you." And so .. everybody laughed at my

01:48:11.340 - 01:48:20.330

expense. I laughed, and I thought, "Okay, I get it. That's what this job's gonna be all about. I'm gonna have to sort of negotiate my relationship with this governor.

01:48:21.920 - 01:48:31.600

I'm up to it." So anyway, let me stop right there and see if you have any questions, Anne. I've gone on this, I don't want to turn this into a monologue and see if you have anything. Oh, this is fascinating.

01:48:32.300 - 01:48:51.000

We also have never had a chance to talk about your, your, your wife and your family. Can we talk a little bit of when, when you met her how and then... Thank you. I had met her about two years, let's see, about two years earlier, on a blind date,

01:48:52.940 - 01:49:07.070

set up by a college roommate, who was desperate to see me marry— more and more desperate than I was actually. And so he had gotten married early on after we got out of school,

01:49:07.750 - 01:49:22.070

and already had a family. So he wanted, he wanted me to meet a woman who he didn't know himself, but she was the sister-in-law of somebody that he knew. And so he said, he set me up with, with a blind date.

01:49:22.070 - 01:49:38.250

And by that at that point, I was taking a lot of blind dates, you know, so it's no big deal. And so, eventually, you know, it started off kind of rocky, but primarily because my wife thought that I, I

01:49:38.310 - 01:49:51.400

found out later, she said I talked too much. So anyway, so we got married. We actually got married the year that I got appointed to the commission.

01:49:52.170 - 01:50:05.760

We got married in August of 1991. And I got appointed to the commission in October. And so it was interesting because I was going to have to move to Austin,

01:50:06.020 - 01:50:19.100

but I just got married. So what I did was, I remember, for the first year and a half, I served on the commission, I actually kept my household in Houston.

01:50:19.390 - 01:50:29.460

She had an optometric practice in Lake Jackson, so she was still doing business there and driving. She was living at our house in Houston. She had a house in Lake Jackson.

01:50:30.240 - 01:50:42.510

But she had begun to put it on the market to sell it. But she was still commuting to her optometric office in Lake Jackson each way. I think it was around something like 50 miles each way.

01:50:42.510 - 01:50:56.690

It was just, incredible drive each way. But anyway, so I would get in my car, either on Sunday night or early Monday morning and drive to Austin, spend a week at an apartment

01:50:56.720 - 01:51:10.290

that I rented. And then on Friday afternoon drive back to Houston to spend the weekend with her. And I kept up that routine for a year and a half. So the first year and a half we were married, we actually had a marriage

01:51:10.370 - 01:51:24.560

by distance, separated by, you know, the 150, 160 miles between Houston and Austin. That I-I look back on that period as and really have to say that I was so blessed

01:51:25.080 - 01:51:39.440

by having somebody who was so supportive in the very early years of our marriage. I also remember that we– we actually had not been able to do a honeymoon at the time we got married, and actually had to do the honeymoon after I had been

01:51:39.440 - 01:51:49.040

appointed to the commission. And I remember flying out of Austin to go, to go to our honeymoon. We went to Hong Kong, and we flew from Austin to Hong

01:51:49.040 - 01:52:01.310

Kong at the time. But for the first year and a half, we, she and I commuted and then until we have, her house got sold, I actually put my house up in Houston on the market.

01:52:01.950 - 01:52:14.320

And then we did buy a house ultimately in Austin, and then I, and then she moved in to join me, set... joined a group practice, optometric practice in– in Austin. And we lived in Austin

01:52:14.360 - 01:52:27.060

for the period thereafter for the next four and a half years. So, our home life became much more stable, because now I didn't have to commute anymore. And called Austin my, my residence.

01:52:27.580 - 01:52:37.640

We bought a brand new house, if we remember, it was just a frame when we– when it was on the market. And so we were able to buy it buy brand new and have it customized, which is nice.

01:52:37.710 - 01:52:49.310

It was in a developing area of Austin at the time. Not so much today, it's pretty much within the, well within the city limits and everything has been vastly developed in that area since

01:52:49.310 - 01:53:04.040

then. So we, it was a very lovely opportunity for her to come to Austin. Austin was a lot slower than Houston. She really blended, blended well into the community. We made a lot of friends.

01:53:04.700 - 01:53:16.080

That's the other thing. As a state official, you don't need to go out and look for friends. You have more friends than you could ever count, right? So I had lots of people wanting to meet me, become my friend.

01:53:16.480 - 01:53:27.830

We had some old friends that we knew who, who also had been living in Austin. So that was nice. We actually met people in the Asian American community in Austin; it was very small back then.

01:53:28.850 - 01:53:41.590

My wife got to meet some of them. I met some people from the, who were active in the Asian bar, who lived in Austin. So you know, yeah, you know, everybody was gravitating to me because

01:53:41.590 - 01:53:51.740

I was so unique. Number one, I was a senior state official; number two, I was Asian American. And so if you were with me, within the Asian American community, this is something you've never seen before.

01:53:51.980 - 01:54:03.180

And there were people who lived in Austin, from the Asian American that I had never met. And they had been there for years, literally decades. And they were active

01:54:03.180 - 01:54:15.870

in the community, but I had never met them even while I was in Houston, and had very little interaction, suddenly, you know, they wanted to meet me, because here was somebody that they could rally around as a reference point,

01:54:16.430 - 01:54:28.760

and maybe help the community. So I was, I decided then and there that I was going to try to do what I can to, you know, spend some time with him as well, while I was in Austin because of my unique role. And I later learned

01:54:28.760 - 01:54:45.690

that it actually made me a figurehead not only just in Austin, but throughout the rest of the state. I was invited by some friends of mine in Dallas, the Dallas Asian Chamber, to come give a keynote speaker at speech at their gala,

01:54:45.820 - 01:55:00.010

their annual gala, where they invited all major corporate sponsors. And I remember going there and the person that I sat next to on the dais was Senator Phil Gramm, US senator from Texas.

01:55:00.010 - 01:55:10.790

And so he was very, very cordial. His wife, Wendy was there, and was also Asian American. But he got up to give remarks. I remember he said, he

01:55:10.790 - 01:55:20.630

says, "I'm here to say hello to you. But I know I really know why you're here. You're not here for me. You're here for Mr. Gee." So anyway, and so I

01:55:20.740 - 01:55:32.850

was able to reconnect with some friends, old friends of mine in Dallas as well, who I've known from years earlier, and then also meet a number of members of the Asian American community there. So it was an opportunity. But anyway, back to my wife.

01:55:33.820 - 01:55:45.700

My wife has been with me through thick and thin. I met her... She immigrated from Hong Kong when she was five years old. And had been living in Texas.

01:55:46.720 - 01:56:01.550

First she moved to I think she spent some time in Arkansas and in Memphis, with friends of her family that have eventually her family moved to Houston and had a very small modest grocery store in the black area of

01:56:01.550 - 01:56:16.390

town. She lived in behind the store. The custom back then among many Chinese families just still live in your, in your store. There were when I grew up, there were many, many Chinese families who had grocery stores in the

01:56:16.460 - 01:56:27.910

underserved areas of the city. And my wife's family was one of them. And so she grew up in a, in a predominantly black, African American neighborhood. She did very well in school.

01:56:27.950 - 01:56:43.970

She, she graduated, salutatorian in her high school and ultimately went to University of Houston, undergrad and optometric school. She told me she did not buy a single textbook, all

01:56:44.010 - 01:57:00.210

throughout college. And I said, "How could you do that and why?" She said, "Well," she said, "I couldn't afford it." She went to high school and college totally on scholarships or money that, that she had earned herself. Didn't get any help from her parents; and decided not to buy any textbooks,

01:57:00.210 - 01:57:12.540

because she said she'd go to the library to read them, which I thought was just something short of astonishing, seriously. But she's very very... she's the smart one in our family by the way, if you didn't know by now.

01:57:13.120 - 01:57:25.970

She, she excelled and in mathematics in her high school. She, she won the math award. She was voted "Miss Intelligent," "Most Intelligent" rather, I keep getting that mixed up. She hates it.

01:57:26.190 - 01:57:40.440

She's voted, voted "Most Intelligent" by her, her, her, her high school faculty and peers. And so she really could have, I mean, she– she just excelled tremendously with very little assistance.

01:57:40.440 - 01:57:55.580

Didn't speak any English when she first enrolled in elementary school. Not a word. She spoke her family dialect, Toisan, at home with her mother and father and, and siblings. And I said, "Well, how did you manage to learn English?" She

01:57:55.580 - 01:58:10.710

said, "I picked it up from my classmates," I said, "How long did that take?" She said, "Maybe about three or four years to become fluent." And I said, "Well, how did you do in school before?" She said, "Well, I made terrible grades." I said, "TYeah, you couldn't speak English." And she said, "Yeah,

01:58:10.830 - 01:58:21.090

but ultimately, around fourth grade, it all began to click. And so my C's started to turn into A's." And I just thought, "Wow." Just, you know, I

01:58:21.090 - 01:58:34.580

thought I came from a modest background, but not even close to her. She really just elevated herself. And so I really felt fortunate to have met her. And then she's been very patient with me and my career changes when I told

01:58:34.580 - 01:58:45.450

her that I had an opportunity. After we got married and spoke to her the news that I was being considered for an appointment that would require a move to Austin. She, she was very supportive.

01:58:46.360 - 01:58:59.380

And she said, "I'll move to Austin with you." And I also remember the day my appointment was made public, I remember going to her family. And her mom and dad could not speak much English.

01:58:59.990 - 01:59:10.590

They did speak a little bit English since they did run a grocery store. But I remember hearing as my wife tried to explain to my father-in-law, exactly what type of job I was going to be taking in Austin.

01:59:10.590 - 01:59:23.210

And I said, "This is gonna be interesting. How do you explain to him in Chinese what a utility regulator does?", But he understood, and so she went with me to Austin.

01:59:24.230 - 01:59:36.300

You know, not for the first year, but after a year and a half, she moved to join me. And then at the time, I thought that the arrangement that I had with my law firm was I was going to maybe stay

01:59:36.300 - 01:59:49.500

two or three years, serve, you know, in that office, and then leave and go back to private practice, and then make Austin our home. Well, as it turned out, it didn't work out that way. Ann Richards did not win re-election.

01:59:50.310 - 02:00:01.440

And, as a consequence, my plans, I had planned on resigning, actually from the commission after she won re-election, and going back to the practice of law; but she didn't win re-election.

02:00:02.340 - 02:00:13.550

And before I could make a decision about whether to resign, I did get a call. I think I mentioned this earlier, from the Speaker of the House, Pete Laney, who wanted me to stay another two years, which I did.

02:00:14.520 - 02:00:30.280

And then those two years, were actually some of the probably some of the most exciting years of my term in office in Texas, which ultimately led to my appointment for a position in Washington by President Clinton.

02:00:30.870 - 02:00:42.800

And when I broke the news to my wife that I wasn't going, I didn't, that I wasn't planning on going back to the private sector, but instead would perhaps take a federal appointment, asking her her thoughts, she again was very supportive.

02:00:44.330 - 02:00:56.200

And again, she was willing to move with me to Washington. This would be taking her completely out of her comfort zone. The only state she had lived in really, since five years old was Texas.

02:00:56.590 - 02:01:11.590

That's all she knew of, you know, first Houston, and then Austin for four and a half years, and I was gonna drag her and take with me to Washington. And I thought at the time that, you know, if we did move, it would only be for the Clinton administration term, which you know, would be

02:01:11.590 - 02:01:19.170

around four years. You know, maybe a little bit short of that. And then afterwards, you know, we would keep our house in Austin, and then come back and live in Austin.

02:01:19.170 - 02:01:30.330

So that was the deal at the time. But she very, very patiently moved with me to, to Washington as well, and then took a job; continuing to practice optometry.

02:01:30.330 - 02:01:41.680

She got licensed in the Common— by the Commonwealth of Virginia. Had to take an exam all over again, to qualify, to be, to be qualified for, for work as an optometrist, which to her was no

02:01:41.680 - 02:01:53.060

big deal. She's so smart. I remember, she took the exam, I remember, she had to fly to Chicago, for a day trip to go take an exam there because they weren't offering the exam locally in Virginia at the time.

02:01:53.670 - 02:02:06.330

But she managed to overcome that. And then she kept practicing optometry here in Virginia since then, to this day. We're- after we've made our home here for the last 20—

02:02:07.110 - 02:02:17.380

almost 25 years now here in Commonwealth of Virginia. But it sounds like we need to interview her as well. So will you... If you want I could ask her, Anne.

02:02:17.780 - 02:02:31.770

You know, she has, she has an interesting story herself. Yeah, we would love to interview her and put her story in our archive as well. So I think this is a great segue to for you going back to talk about your work with Public Utility Commission.

02:02:32.170 - 02:02:42.990

And you said a lot those two years after Ann Richards were some of the most exciting years. We'd love to hear more about that. Sure. But what happened was, I was busy on the

02:02:43.050 - 02:03:00.470

commissioners chair, we had a lot of issues that we had to deal with at the time, I won't go into in tremendous detail. I would say that, that what happened after she, she lost her office, and I stayed on that I served with six

02:03:00.560 - 02:03:11.600

other people on the commission. During my six years I, I was the second longest serving Commissioner in the state of Texas at the time, serving my full term. That was an

02:03:11.800 - 02:03:24.500

exception and not the rule. And I was fortunate that two of the people that were chosen by, appointed by Governor Bush, were two people who I got along very, very well with, even though they were Republican, I made a

02:03:24.500 - 02:03:36.310

decision at that time that I was not going to use my, the rest of my office. Well, let me put it this way. I decided decided early on, that even as a Democrat, I never

02:03:36.400 - 02:03:48.730

really saw this as a job that had a sharp partisan edge. And I kept it that way. I didn't want people to think that there was a, you know, one decision that would favor

02:03:48.730 - 02:04:00.410

Democrats versus Republicans. I don't think in those terms, anyway, to me, it's a public service job. I'm a state official, who's a Democrat. And obviously, there would be a potential political role for me to play which

02:04:00.410 - 02:04:13.700

I enthusiastically assumed, you know, you know, fundraising, to the extent it was legal, you know, campaigning for other candidates, you know, I endorsed candidates, they were able to use my name, that sort of thing.

02:04:14.210 - 02:04:28.360

But I never thought that my decisions would be, would be given a partisan coloration. So when she lost, I had to step down from my chairmanship. Well, what happened was, Governor Bush came into office, and he appointed...

02:04:29.480 - 02:04:44.780

But even so, I got along well with him. And then I remember the Governor's Office said his... energy liaison, a fellow that I actually became very good friend of mine. And he told me, he said, "Governor Bush

02:04:44.870 - 02:05:02.420

would like to keep you as the Chairman of this Commission for the next— for the time being, until the legislature adjourns. And then, and then he has an opportunity to appoint a new person to that office, because we had a

02:05:02.420 - 02:05:17.190

vacancy that was about to come up." And he said, "Until then, that'll give his appointees time to, to catch up, get up to speed. So if you would just stay on as Chairman for now. And we'll notify you at the appropriate time when,

02:05:17.660 - 02:05:30.820

you know, we want his appointee to take over the chairmanship." And I said, "I was fine with that." And so what happened was, this would have been the end of May of that year. And when the legislature adjourned

02:05:30.820 - 02:05:48.530

and we knew we had to lose one of our members who was, was not confirmed by the Senate. What happened was I decided not to wait for the Governor's Office to let me know that they wanted to install their appointee to be chair, I told my staff, I said, "You go ahead and leak to the

02:05:48.530 - 02:06:05.140

other office that they need to be prepared for a change of chairmanship at our next commission meeting." And I said, "But I can't tell the other Commissioner that because it would be a violation of the Open Meetings Act. But you staff can talk to each other.

02:06:06.030 - 02:06:21.590

And you can sort of, you know, kind of let them know that things are going to be different at the next commission meeting." And my Chief of Staff said, "Got it." So I remember showing up the commission meeting to take up the cases on the

02:06:21.590 - 02:06:34.180

docket. And when I walked in the commission meeting room, there was the appointed– the new appointees' family sitting on the front row. So I knew that he knew what was going to happen.

02:06:35.610 - 02:06:44.420

And I also saw the news media there. So I said, "I was fine with that." And so what I did was I said the first order of business is we're going to change, we're going to vote on the new chairmanship.

02:06:45.760 - 02:06:58.590

And I'm casting my vote for Pat Wood, Governor Bush's appoint- appointee to the commission. Pat take the gavel. And we call the recess at that point. And Pat, was

02:06:58.590 - 02:07:11.880

received by the news media, and thanked me. His parents came up and thanked me, and they're very gracious people. And it's really interesting, you know, small things like that count, I think Pat and both his parents

02:07:11.980 - 02:07:25.060

remember that day, because I saw them years later, and they treated me like a long lost son. Because they knew– they knew that, you know, I knew that this job was not for me, the job was for the State of Texas.

02:07:25.910 - 02:07:38.640

And I think they appreciated that and they appreciated the tip of the hat that I gave to Pat to give them that opportunity to go ahead and take the reins right then, and there without anybody– anybody had to having to tell me so. So warm memories

02:07:38.640 - 02:07:52.490

of that day. And so what that did, however, was that that really, in a way kind of made me independent. It's not that the governor tells you how to vote, that's not the case. But when you do have a governor in office, who appointed you,

02:07:52.490 - 02:08:07.320

you need to be, you know, circumspect. And understand that there is a constituency out there that's monitoring what's going on. And so at this point, since the governor of the State of Texas came from another party, I really, in

02:08:07.320 - 02:08:20.310

many respects, became independent of having any governor that I needed to just say, stay in touch with, although I do have to say that whenever the Governor's Representative came over to visit with the other commissioners that

02:08:20.310 - 02:08:35.140

were appointed by me. He did come by to visit with me as a courtesy, to let me know what was going on. And I appreciated that. So, but anyway, about that time I was becoming, I was starting to take a very active role in at the national level.

02:08:35.870 - 02:08:50.910

I had been very active since my early days, as a commissioner in the electricity committee of the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners. I started off as a subcommittee Chair and would attend these

02:08:50.910 - 02:09:02.620

meetings all around the country. We had three meetings a year, all around the country, we did one annual meeting in Washington; and two, that would be wherever they had planned to me that was convenient for the membership.

02:09:02.620 - 02:09:15.120

And they floated around the country, having these very large meetings of all the State Utility Commissioners around the country, all 50 states and territories, and all the utilities that are regulated by them, and all the special

02:09:15.120 - 02:09:28.410

interests that were affected by our decisions were all there. And so these are the massive gatherings of, you know, four or five days with, you know, 1500 people. And so I became very active in one of the committees.

02:09:29.470 - 02:09:46.450

And ultimately, you know, with people leaving office and transitioning to lead new leadership, I was, I was asked to assume the Chairmanship of the Committee on Electricity for this association, which was fairly significant at the

02:09:46.450 - 02:10:01.190

time, because there have been major legislation at the federal level that opened up competition between powerplant owners and operators throughout the country. And Texas was part of that evolution, the restructuring of the electric utility

02:10:01.270 - 02:10:14.960

industry— what was called the wholesale market level -- was occurring right at that time. And there was a need for the association representing state commissioners, to have a voice in Congress

02:10:16.150 - 02:10:30.270

to help influence the direction of legislation. And so what that did was that open an opportunity for me to go to Congress multiple times, and to be asked to provide testimony

02:10:30.590 - 02:10:41.890

in congressional hearings. And so I took several trips to Washington during those two years, testifying on Capitol Hill, getting national recognition for legislation

02:10:43.180 - 02:10:59.610

I was, or legislative amendments that I was proposing, getting my name mentioned in national news media. I was not thinking of ever going back to Washington at that time, I thought it was just a great, it was just a lot of fun to get out of Austin,

02:11:00.680 - 02:11:14.940

to, you know, sort of put out a new hat. I was no longer the Chair of my commission. But I was, you know, getting national recognition at the time. And the trade associations, especially the national trade associations, who were active

02:11:14.940 - 02:11:27.620

in Washington started noticing me, and started inviting me to come up to Washington to give keynote addresses at their events and, you know, things like that. So I was, I was being, I was very well known within the,

02:11:27.810 - 02:11:42.170

the private sector, as well as the regulatory sector; was a tremendous opportunity for visibility at that time. And so I did not think that my last two years of the commission were wasted just because I was no longer chair.

02:11:42.170 - 02:12:00.520

In fact, I had– had the benefit of turning it to my advantage. And then ultimately, when it when my term of office was about to expire, which coincided with the, with the– the changeover in the Clinton administration, President Clinton had been

02:12:00.520 - 02:12:11.570

elected to office, reelected rather in 1996 in 1997, when my term of office was about to expire, I did get a call from some friends of mine, who were serving

02:12:11.570 - 02:12:24.700

Clinton administration asking me if I was interested in coming back to Washington, as a political appointee. And one reason why was because they knew that I already had achieved national visibility. And I was not an unknown.

02:12:25.380 - 02:12:39.290

I was already well-known within the energy community by appearing multiple times in testimony on Capitol Hill. And the Clinton administration was also very interested in getting behind potential federal legislation that would

02:12:39.290 - 02:12:49.230

be sponsored by President Clinton. So they wanted somebody who had some working knowledge about what was going on at the state level. There's a, there's a whole long story about how I got appointed, I won't go into any

02:12:49.230 - 02:13:04.320

detail now. But what I told you, what I do tell people was that actually, it was much tougher to get appointed at the state level than it was the federal level. I know that as a fact, the shortlist at the federal level was a lot shorter than

02:13:04.320 - 02:13:18.340

it was at the state level. I know that as a fact. One, one story I do want to share before we, we adjourn, Anne, is how my appointment in Texas was finally taken

02:13:18.340 - 02:13:30.700

over the finish line. I do want to share that story. It was a debate within the Governor's Office and their staff over who– who should get the appointment. I did not know this until after I got the appointment.

02:13:31.790 - 02:13:42.690

I was told this because one of my friends who was an Asian American appointee, had talked to one of the people in the room who shared the conversation.

02:13:42.800 - 02:13:57.050

And what happened was, there was a debate within the Governor's Office, I’d gotten a phone call from the governor's deputy, one of the governor's deputy chiefs of staff telling me that, she said the staff was going to help push me for the appointment.

02:13:58.500 - 02:14:12.870

But she knew that there was going to be some internal opposition, but to sit tight. I knew that early on even when my– my name, my candidacy had its ups and downs. But what happened was, when they finally made came to the decision day to

02:14:12.870 - 02:14:21.150

tell the governor, you know who to recommend this was a meeting with the governor. There were certain people who went to the mat for me. And one

02:14:21.150 - 02:14:37.360

of them was an African American deputy Chief of Staff who had worked for Rodney Ellis, who went to the mat for me and told Governor Richards that she had to appoint me if she really wanted to make good on her promise

02:14:37.360 - 02:14:50.270

of the New Texas because I, because of my Asian American background, but not only because I was qualified— in fact, I was the most qualified on paper— but because of my, of who I was, and the community I represented.

02:14:50.910 - 02:15:05.800

And he was the one that helped me over the finish line. And I remember coming up to him. Even years later, I remember coming up to him at Governor Richards memorial service in 2007 when she passed away.

02:15:05.800 - 02:15:18.720

I went back to Austin for that. And I came up to him and I said, you know, "I've never told you this. But I knew you were the one who got me over the finish line." That he said,

02:15:18.910 - 02:15:28.980

I said, "I know it's true. Can you verify that?" And he said, "Yes." The irony, I gotta tell you, the irony is I'm actually doing some business with him right now on the Texas

02:15:29.020 - 02:15:38.120

power crisis. So I'm not gonna name his name. But he's been a very dear friend of mine over these many, many years, over 20 years ago. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that story.

02:15:39.290 - 02:15:54.600

And that's fascinating, absolutely fascinating, how you, you got appointed. And listening to your story. I mean, you're eminently prepared, I think at every juncture in your career move, you have worked really hard to

02:15:54.600 - 02:16:08.000

get there; but also you also recognize opportunities, and then you, you kind of, you can always turn an opportunity to your advantage. And that's why I think you'll progress so quickly and so successfully through these different

02:16:08.000 - 02:16:25.000

steps. So for younger audiences who may be watching the interview, what advice would you give them if they hope to aspire to the kind of success in career as you have? What I tell them is, this is what this is advice I give just to any

02:16:26.900 - 02:16:36.240

group of high school or college age students: become the master of your craft. That's the first thing you need to do. Whatever, whatever discipline you choose,

02:16:36.490 - 02:16:47.460

be the best at it, you have to establish that. There's no shortcuts on that. But also, when you see the opportunity, what you need to do is understand that, you know, the worst thing you can do

02:16:47.460 - 02:16:57.360

professionally is get pigeonholed and stay at a place too long. And one lesson I learned was that as soon as you wind up, you know, mastering your craft and becoming proficient.

02:16:58.060 - 02:17:13.100

You know, if you see yourself doing the same thing over and over again, perhaps you need to need to keep moving on and start looking for other opportunities. And in terms of public service, I do tell people I said, try to find a way, at some stage in your career to enter public

02:17:13.100 - 02:17:25.380

service. That doesn't mean you have to go run for office, which is really, really tough, I chose not to do that. But it does mean that you can serve on a board or commission or something more in a volunteer or part time capacity.

02:17:25.870 - 02:17:36.550

The job I had was actually full time, you couldn't, you couldn't do it by... you know, others have tried to do it by you know, flying to Austin for a meeting and then going back home to Houston or Dallas, that's been done.

02:17:37.030 - 02:17:50.250

I don't think they do the job that well. But you've got to be committed, you've got to be committed to be being mobile. That's the other thing. But I do say that, you know, you don't necessarily start out wanting to, to be an

02:17:50.250 - 02:18:04.140

officeholder. But once you start off doing is wanting to serve the community, you know, doing volunteer work in your community, becoming known in your community, working at the grassroots level, you know, certainly working on political campaigns, but doing it on

02:18:04.280 - 02:18:15.430

behalf of your community: the Asian American community. That was what I started doing. I got into community work, never dreaming that it would ever land me an appointment in

02:18:15.430 - 02:18:30.880

Austin, and then ultimately, back in Washington, that was it never really ever entered my thoughts. In fact, you know, the notion of me moving back to Austin, was just so foreign to me, when I started working, you know, getting

02:18:30.880 - 02:18:42.060

involved in the community in Houston, around in 1988. That was just so distant. I just didn't see that on my career horizon. And that, you know, and then moving back to Washington was not even thought about.

02:18:42.390 - 02:18:52.280

Although I did tell people privately, you know, the only thing that would ever take me back to Washington was a political appointment, I would never go back to work just as a civil servant. You know, I've been there and done that.

02:18:53.190 - 02:19:07.680

But I didn't know when that opportunity would arise. And I didn't know that the state office would position me to, to ultimately, serve this. There's another anecdote I want to share about my– my chair, my chairmanship at the

02:19:07.680 - 02:19:22.010

commission, how that happened in Texas, I don't want, I don't want to do that now. There's an interesting story behind that. I said only because I was elected chairman at the very first meeting, I attended, open meeting, that was very unusual.

02:19:22.010 - 02:19:36.960

It was unusual, because the two Republicans didn't get along. And one of them resigned his chairmanship and threw his vote to me. And so I went from, as one of my friends told me, I went from being an absolute nobody, perhaps a

02:19:36.960 - 02:19:49.690

year before to being one of the most powerful state officials in the state of Texas, within a year. That my rise was meteoric. I came from nowhere. And suddenly, I was the chair of a major state commission.

02:19:49.690 - 02:20:03.130

You know, back in the 90s, the PUC was known for bad news, they got bad headlines. And so I was there, my role was actually to take it off there. That's what Ann Richards told me, she said, "Get the get the PUC out of the newspapers." And so

02:20:03.450 - 02:20:18.580

I was actually appointed– appointed as a reformer to come back to bring some calm and rationality and, you know, give it a different tone, public tone, which is, I think I achieved that for the most part.

02:20:19.110 - 02:20:30.450

But it was a surprise to me that I was able to elevate myself so quickly, it didn't and... That's the other interesting thing. Later on when I got to Washington, this is I'll share with the store with you later.

02:20:31.440 - 02:20:44.010

I would in seven years, from the time before I served in commission to the time I did wind up in Washington, as an Assistant Secretary, certainly, it took seven years to wind up in the Situation Room of the White House, in a top

02:20:44.010 - 02:21:00.650

secret meeting with the members of the Cabinet. I tell people that I still pinch myself today to think that I got so far so quickly, given my background, and just you know, using my own wits actually, and a lot of

02:21:00.650 - 02:21:15.030

help from a lot of friends. I just felt so fortunate that I've been able to basically ascend to the power, to the corridors of power so quickly, with such... In my opinion, such minimal preparation, although people tell me, you know, you've

02:21:15.030 - 02:21:21.650

always had a had a reputation for hard work and mastering it. Yeah, I do do that. But I feel that a lot of luck went into it.

02:21:21.650 - 02:21:34.640

A lot of good timing. And in the case of the commission, of the state commission, I think a lot of– a lot of luck and timing played a role. Great. So maybe I can ask you more about the Public Utility Commission.

02:21:34.640 - 02:21:41.450

You mentioned that is one of the most powerful offices in the state. Yes. So bring you back to... Yes, well, two weeks ago, we had a big freeze.

02:21:42.380 - 02:21:52.690

Can you analyze that situation? And then how does the public utility work? We were... I don't think, I don't know anything, and I don't I'm not sure our audience understands that too much either.

02:21:52.690 - 02:22:03.350

Yeah, it's... I'll try to keep this simple. Uh, what happened? I used to tell people back when I served. You know, this is one of the most powerful jobs in the state.

02:22:03.640 - 02:22:14.410

So this, it's really so powerful. It's kind of intimidating. I said, I said, I said, you know, "This is a job that if you didn't know what you're doing, you could really screw things up." And we used to joke about that.

02:22:14.410 - 02:22:29.030

I told that to a lot of my friends who also served in, we have a small fraternity of us, who are former commissioners, and a lot of us have kept in touch with one another. In fact, I'm doing business with a couple of former commissioners right now, out of this

02:22:29.030 - 02:22:38.860

crisis. But you know, we kind of joke about, "Yeah, it's kind of the best kept secret in town, it's, you know, incredibly powerful. But what if you do your job, right, nobody knows that you're there.

02:22:39.630 - 02:22:56.700

And so but if you screw up, you know, everybody knows who you are." And that's where the commission finds itself right now, they are responsible for having made some decisions during the unprecedented cold snap, which unfortunately, led to

02:22:56.700 - 02:23:10.480

massive power outage throughout the state, not only the loss of power, but the loss of potable water, and available water, and created... and we're faced with a

02:23:10.480 - 02:23:24.750

humanitarian crisis, with people actually freezing to death, which is just... When I come to think of what I did on my commission, if that had ever happened on my watch, I would just be completely

02:23:24.750 - 02:23:38.020

devastated. And I know they, the people who were serving that job, person... at a personal level must feel the same way, given the crisis they've had to confront. What happened was

02:23:39.550 - 02:23:55.330

the responsibility for operating the grid went to a special quasi government firm, a great quasi government organization, I should say, called the Electric Reliability Council of Texas.

02:23:56.220 - 02:24:06.080

Its role is to act as what's the what we call as an independent system operator, to dispatch power and to keep the lights on. And it was given

02:24:06.080 - 02:24:21.290

that role when I was serving on the commission in 1996, we actually, me and my fellow Commissioners created ERCOT, and put it in the role that it plays today. And what happened was, they usually do that estimate of how

02:24:21.290 - 02:24:36.180

much power generation is going to be fed into the grid to be able to match the anticipated demand. And what happened was, they did, they were forewarned that there was going to be a huge temperature drop.

02:24:36.990 - 02:24:54.960

But there may have been steps that they did not take to adequately alert the... both the, the power plants as well as the consumers, the users of power, to be able to maintain the proper balance of supply and demand on the system.

02:24:55.450 - 02:25:08.490

The electric grid is very, very fragile. At any given point in time, you have to have the same amount of power in the grid, as you do, taking out the grid to keep it in balance. From an engineering standpoint.

02:25:08.490 - 02:25:20.880

If you lose that sufficient degree of voltage, then the system collapses. And what happened was, the temperature dropped to such a degree that a lot

02:25:20.950 - 02:25:37.270

of the generation plants that were supposed to be available, dropped off, because they froze up, because of either systems are frozen, because of inadequate winterization prep; or because they lost available fuel supply, which

02:25:37.270 - 02:25:51.000

was natural gas. And the natural gas wellheads began to freeze. And the natural gas equipment and pipelines also began to freeze because of inadequate weatherization. So there was a perfect storm, where plants were that were

02:25:51.000 - 02:26:03.660

being called upon were dropping off. And then demand was peaking because it was so cold in the middle of the night or about 1am in the morning, when almost everybody's asleep. And the heat has turned way up because the

02:26:03.660 - 02:26:20.010

cold is so severe. And ERCOT came within four minutes, I'm told, of completely having the system collapse, they began a series of what were called "controlled blackouts," where

02:26:20.720 - 02:26:34.710

they would take, they would begin to take users off the system gradually, perhaps maybe several minutes at a time, at most, maybe an hour. So if they had done this, right, most

02:26:34.750 - 02:26:45.700

people by the time they would awake in the morning wouldn't even have known that the power went out. They might look at their clocks, you know, some of their digital clocks might be flashing. If they use analog clocks, it

02:26:45.700 - 02:27:00.290

might, you know, have a few minutes missing. But ordinarily, when you do a coordinated, you know, a brownout, you know, it's usually either minutes or at most, maybe an hour, in some instances maybe a couple hours. Well,

02:27:00.290 - 02:27:12.760

what happened was they completely lost control that they were within four minutes of a collapse. So they just started doing complete blackouts, not even coordinating that anymore. And that's why the whole system took days

02:27:12.760 - 02:27:25.120

to restore. And then within that period of time because of the cold temperatures, water systems started to freeze up. Couldn't get water, pipes began to burst, you guys lived it, I'm sure. I know a lot of your homes didn't have

02:27:25.120 - 02:27:39.280

water or power for days, people in Houston, friends of mine, I know you... somehow had to go out and start, you know, breaking up your wooden fences to burn to keep warm. I mean, I've friends, lawyers, for attorneys, I know

02:27:39.280 - 02:27:52.000

that, you know, wound up having to destroy some of their fences just to burn, you know, for firewood to keep warm, it was just really just devastating. So there's some enormous financial repercussions that are coming out of that I

02:27:52.000 - 02:28:06.620

won't go into detail. I'm working on that right now. But it's– it's a huge mess right now. But there's a complete destruction of public confidence in, in state government, both at the commission by ERCOT

02:28:07.350 - 02:28:21.870

in now, even with the state legislature, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and both of whom are very active in trying to get involved to show that they want to implement significant reforms so that this doesn't happen again, we'll see what

02:28:21.870 - 02:28:39.490

happens. That's a great analysis what happened. So why is this office such a powerful office normally? It's, it's, in usual days, it's the office that determines what rates you pay for transmission

02:28:40.410 - 02:28:54.840

and distribution. Okay, which is part of your, part of the cost of receiving electric power. So if you know, if you want to get more renewables, more wind energy into, into the power

02:28:55.930 - 02:29:09.030

portfolio, they're the commission that decides where the transmission gets built, how much it costs, and how much ratepayers need to pay. Okay. And then if you receive

02:29:09.260 - 02:29:23.630

service from a retail electric provider, they have to certify that that retail provider is sufficiently well capitalized, to be able to provide you service, so they have to certify them. And they monitor their conduct.

02:29:24.290 - 02:29:40.420

And they take action in case there's misconduct by the retail electric providers. So that's just a small part of what they do. But it's a significant role in order to maintain the quality and affordability of electric power, which is vital not only to

02:29:40.420 - 02:29:54.750

residential customers, but also to industrial customers; there’s a significant volume of industrial customers who rely on affordable power for you know, for, for, for, manufacturing processes.

02:29:55.050 - 02:30:08.260

I mean, the petrochemical industry is part of that petrochemical industry provides grid supplied power themselves, but they also consume large amounts of power. So it's vital to maintain the competitive

02:30:08.260 - 02:30:21.110

industries and you know, in Texas as well as the United States, since Texas makes it, makes up such a huge portion of the US economy. It's indeed a best kept secret. I had no idea. ... Oh it really is.

02:30:22.020 - 02:30:34.710

So we have about 17 minutes left. And I know that there was one topic we may not have covered that you mentioned. There were three vignettes that you'd like to talk about.

02:30:34.710 - 02:30:46.850

One is your in Austin, in Austin. Well, you were being greeted, you're in any event. Oh, yeah. The other was in South Texas along the border. And that White House, I assumed that these two will be

02:30:46.850 - 02:30:57.740

covered this these two belong to your Texas... Yeah, I've got you. You want me to talk about them now? The two Texas. The Washington I can share later that it's– it's– it's one of these things where

02:30:59.260 - 02:31:14.710

you never realize just how important a role you serve. And I said before that I became an icon to the Asian American community. In many respects I was larger than life is something that I didn't realize as much before I took office, I did realize that when

02:31:14.710 - 02:31:28.190

I, when I began serving in office, I don't realize that years later, I actually had been meeting people over even decades later, who told me how unusual my appointment was and how noticed it was.

02:31:28.820 - 02:31:41.900

But I knew that people were enthusiastic because I was, I was the only Asian American who was visible in state office. Well, what happened was I had an opportunity I remember was that it was a, Governor Richards had an open house at the

02:31:41.900 - 02:31:53.660

governor's mansion one day, or one in one late afternoon, early evening, she invited— I'm trying to remember what it was— might it, might have been. Actually might have been just an entire afternoon like a Saturday

02:31:53.660 - 02:32:06.820

afternoon. She invited all of her supporters, her strongest supporters to come to the governor's mansion to have a... to have a picnic on the

02:32:06.820 - 02:32:17.410

grounds of the governor's mansion, so I was a state official, Ann said, "Bob, if you can make it, could you be there and kind of show the flag, meet all of the supporters. And these are people from the communities.

02:32:17.470 - 02:32:28.890

These weren't just, you know, large contributors." In fact, I don't even think there were any large, you know, contributors. It was really, primarily people at the grassroots level, people from community organizations, that sort of thing.

02:32:29.630 - 02:32:44.130

Very diverse, African American, Hispanic, as well, you know, Anglo, and then, you know, a sprinkling of Asian Americans. But I do remember that I was just walking around the, you know, the community leaders and saying, hello,

02:32:44.430 - 02:32:58.980

introducing myself. And a woman, I remember a very diminutive, middle aged, elderly African American woman comes up to me, and immediately recognizes me.

02:33:00.090 - 02:33:11.630

And, and I look at her and she says, "Mr. Gee. Commissioner," I said, "Oh, yes, hi." And she, she extends her hand to me. And I, you know, just accustomed usually just, you

02:33:11.630 - 02:33:21.810

know, kind of shake people's hands and, you know, do small talk. But this one was different. She, she grabbed my hand, and she held on to it.

02:33:21.810 - 02:33:36.710

And then she took her other hand, and placed it over, on top of my hands, so she was holding my single hand with two hands. And she looked up at me and said, "Mr. Gee," she said, "I just want to tell

02:33:36.710 - 02:33:52.560

you,” she said, “I am so happy. I am..." Even today, this kind of chokes me up. She said, "I'm so happy. I'm so happy for you.

02:33:53.640 - 02:34:08.800

And I'm so happy for your people." And I knew what she meant. She was African American, you know, there there have been, you know, you know, African Americans have been in state, state government, you

02:34:08.800 - 02:34:23.870

know, legislature, that sort of thing. I think some of Governor Richards appointees are also African American. I remember there was a very excellent chairman of the Texas Environmental Quality Commission.

02:34:25.070 - 02:34:36.510

John Hall was African American. But she looked up at me and said, "I'm happy, I'm happy for you. And I'm so happy for your people." And I just, it really touched me.

02:34:37.260 - 02:34:52.270

And I, then I began to realize that my appointment was more than just an icon to, to my own community; it was an icon to other underserved communities as well. That, you know, it's what Rodney Ellis told me says, "We need a person of color.

02:34:52.340 - 02:35:07.390

There's nobody who has your qualifications, in our community. You're it." I didn't begin to realize that until she came up to me, and I still remember that to this day. It was just, just one of the most moving moments of my entire

02:35:07.390 - 02:35:21.600

life. That is really moving. That is amazing. And then so your second vignette in South Texas border? It was a similar event, that similar type experience, but in a very different

02:35:21.600 - 02:35:37.740

context. What happened was one of my assistants who I inherited from my predecessor, was a woman, she was a very well known, almost legendary actually political figure from South Texas.

02:35:38.770 - 02:35:52.570

A woman by— I'll just tell her name, Nadine Eckhart was very well known in Texas political circles for many years. She was one of my assistants at the commission. And she had, she was well known because she she began her own

02:35:52.890 - 02:36:08.510

career as a, as an, as an aide to then Senator Lyndon Johnson in the US Congress, if you can believe that. She was, she was a former beauty queen, who grew up in South Texas was born and raised there, went to go work in Washington.

02:36:08.510 - 02:36:17.770

She later went on to marry a member of Congress as well. A member of Congress in Houston named Bob Eckhart. And she's got a whole story. She wrote

02:36:17.770 - 02:36:31.990

a book about her life. So I have no qualms sharing this about her. But anyway, Nadine told me, she said, you know, "Bob, you know, you're going to be serving in a very unique capacity. On behalf of Ann Richards, one of

02:36:31.990 - 02:36:44.210

the things you need to do is you need to go down to South Texas and spend some time." And I said, "Nadine, why would I do that?" She said, "Because it's very different from where, from the areas of Texas you're familiar with.

02:36:44.760 - 02:36:59.450

South Texas is, you know, very, very, very desperately poor." There were areas of South Texas called the Colonias, which were neighborhoods that were developed by let’s just say unscrupulous real estate developers that

02:36:59.450 - 02:37:10.850

were unfinished, that people were living in them, squatting there. And it was written up, was a very sad story written up by the New York Times and a lot of national news media. She said, "You need to go out and just go talk

02:37:11.110 - 02:37:24.870

to them and get to meet them, get to know them and have you know, understand, you know, how they see state government." And I said, "Fine. Okay, I'll spend some time." And so I talked to my– my press secretary for

02:37:24.930 - 02:37:36.180

the commission. He was, he was a Hispanic, spoke fluent Spanish. I said, "Okay, Guillermo, you and I are going to go down to South Texas." And so Nadine put together an itinerary from me.

02:37:36.330 - 02:37:47.650

We worked with some of the members of the legislature in that area, the state representatives and state senators. You know,I went down and you know, the state senator, Eddie Lucio was a marvelous host.

02:37:48.300 - 02:38:01.490

He drove me around the whole area in his own pickup truck. We did a lot of community meetings, we met with the business community in Brownsville, we also did a chamber of commerce

02:38:01.490 - 02:38:11.730

lunch. I remember we actually drove across the border, went into Mexico to have lunch and drove across and drove back into Texas. The border was really seamless at that time.

02:38:11.730 - 02:38:22.670

All you had to do is just, I'm not so sure you ever need to show a passport, maybe just a driver's license. I'm no... seriously, not the border controls we have today. But I do remember going down there.

02:38:22.670 - 02:38:35.020

But anyway, you know, I spent some time with the business community. But then they also also set up for me to meet with community leadership, the people who necessarily were not in the position of power, but were the people that were the community

02:38:35.020 - 02:38:47.550

leaders, the well known people in the community. And so I did go down to to meet with them as well. And I do remember meeting, you know, I met a, one woman with a, with a, with an infant child and she was living in the Colonies,

02:38:48.120 - 02:39:01.860

very poor, very destitute, and I had to speak with her through a translator. So it was those sorts of, you know, very intimate, you know, gatherings. And here I was the Chairman of the Commission, you know, what does this have

02:39:01.860 - 02:39:12.450

to do with utility rates, right? Well, nothing, you know why, but it's everything. These are the people who are affected by my decisions. But one of the people that they set me up with was, I remember very

02:39:12.450 - 02:39:27.690

distinctly, it was a community leader, a woman again, she was middle aged, probably in her 60s. That's probably older than middle aged, but I do remember, she was known as "The Woman" who the community rallied behind

02:39:27.690 - 02:39:40.340

to talk to the leadership, whether it's the City Council, the mayor, you know, the utility company, about community concerns, she didn't speak much English herself. But they told me I needed to talk to her.

02:39:40.340 - 02:39:55.720

She had a very modest house that was located on a, on a, on a, on a two lane highway next to a filling station. There was nothing around it, I remember that we went into our house, walked into a house. It was really just

02:39:55.720 - 02:40:10.890

immaculately kept, kept in order. She had a, you know, nice wallpaper on her walls. And she had a lot of religious icons on the walls and family pictures that were

02:40:11.020 - 02:40:26.860

everywhere. And so all they told her was that I was from the Public Utility Commission, this powerful state agency that I was going to, you know, talk to her about any concerns that she had about the, you know, the utility bills or, you know, any other

02:40:26.860 - 02:40:39.170

concerns you wanted to bring up since I was from Austin. So, she greeted me, we talked through a translator, I remember sitting down and, you know, starting the conversation, it's kind of stilted, you know, she was very measured, just kind of trying to feel

02:40:39.170 - 02:40:53.540

me out. And then I noticed that there was a, there was a photograph on, it was on the, a little small piano.. It was a young woman in a military uniform. And I asked her, I said, “Who's this?

02:40:53.910 - 02:41:08.260

You got your family member in the military.” She said, “Yeah, that's my daughter. My daughter is a lieutenant in the United States Army, serving in Panama.” I said, "That's just wonderful. You have a, you have a daughter, that's in the US military." She said,

02:41:08.260 - 02:41:22.850

"Yes. She is very, very ambitious. She wants to be the first Hispanic, female general in the US Army". I said, “That's just wonderful.” I said, "I hope she makes it.

02:41:22.850 - 02:41:38.660

I know she will." But it's wonderful that she has such aspirations. And so the conversation continued. And then finally, she just looked at me kind of, you know, squarely in the eye and said, "Now tell me again, why did your bosses ask you

02:41:38.660 - 02:41:52.130

to come visit with me today?" I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Why did your bosses at the Public Utility Commission ask you to come meet with me today?" I said, "Well, my boss is the governor. But you know, she's not really my boss.

02:41:52.470 - 02:42:04.020

She's the one who appointed me." Shesaid, "No. Who at the commission told you to come meet with me?" I said, "Well, actually nobody. I decided on my own." "Do you really?" I said, "Yeah." I said, "You know why?

02:42:04.230 - 02:42:16.360

I really don't have a boss." "So why don't you have a boss?" "Well, I'm the Chairman of the Commission." And so what happened was, I remember, I said this in English, and it was translated to her in Spanish as El Jefe.

02:42:16.360 - 02:42:29.900

And so she looked at me suddenly just said, "What?" She said, "El Jefe?!" She stood up in her chair, and she looked at me and said, "You're the head of the Commission?" I said, "Yes."

02:42:31.270 - 02:42:39.960

And she looked at me just kind of like, she couldn't believe I was sitting there. And we're in our– in our living room. I remember, she just sat down back in her chair,

02:42:40.200 - 02:42:53.490

and she had this wonderful smile on her face. And I tell people, I still share the story anecdotally, whenever I had a chance to give speeches to groups, I said, "I know she looked at me.

02:42:54.230 - 02:43:06.230

And what she was thinking was, he doesn't look like somebody who would be the chairman of this commission. As in, I'm not white. And I'm not portly with a bald head." Not that I have anything

02:43:06.230 - 02:43:18.350

against, you know, white guys with bald heads because I have lots of friends like that. But she knew and I knew that if I was the chairman of the Public Utility Commission, that this was going to be a new day for Texas.

02:43:18.730 - 02:43:31.600

So that's my story. That is a great story. So well, maybe one last question before we let you go. I mean, clearly, you have

02:43:31.650 - 02:43:45.720

embraced your Asian American identity throughout your career and growing up. And that you've, you've really done a lot to kind of help Asian American community. But you grew up during the time of Jim Crow laws, in

02:43:45.720 - 02:44:00.330

Houston. How do you deal with the injustice that you see, and you probably personally have experienced where it's not able to find a job after a lot education, how do you process that and not make it into something negative?

02:44:01.610 - 02:44:13.920

It's difficult. It's not easy. I have to tell you, I still struggle today, sometimes, even professionally, if I think that people treat me different, but it never goes away. I know that sounds astonishing.

02:44:14.570 - 02:44:25.310

But I tell people, no matter how high you get in life, or how much achievement you think you attain, you always feel like you have to be better to justify yourself in that room.

02:44:26.510 - 02:44:41.270

You have to be better than everybody else in the room, you have to show that you deserve to be there. That that's not something that you give up, that you stop feeling. I don't know whether it's a sense of ingrained insecurity or your life's

02:44:41.270 - 02:44:54.640

experiences where you've had some setbacks or people saying things. I mean, I can remember walking into a room and I could see people staring at me. This was long after I you know, after I'd gotten out of law school, I was in

02:44:54.640 - 02:45:10.410

Washington, I'd go to law, law law firm reception, there were people in the room who would look at me sideways, like "Who's he?" Seriously. I don't talk about that that much. But you notice it, you always notice how you're treated differently.

02:45:11.100 - 02:45:22.900

Because of your color or your heritage. It never, ever disappears. And I don't say this lightly. But you, you reveal that only when you think it's

02:45:23.220 - 02:45:33.030

necessary. You, you don't, you know, you don't go out and wear it on your forehead. As I tell people, you know, don't let it get the better of you.

02:45:33.740 - 02:45:47.430

You deal with it. And you try to turn it to your advantage. But you always remember that. And so, you know, in my own background, having seen how African Americans are treated while

02:45:47.430 - 02:46:05.540

growing up, I've come to the conclusion that this is something, this is a challenge that we're going to have for the rest of our lives, not just African American, Asian Americans as well. We're suffering, we're still suffering from some of the same acts of discrimination that I saw 30 years ago.

02:46:06.260 - 02:46:19.750

I think that it's and I don't want to get political. But I think that there's been a validation of that type of conduct by some of our national leadership over the last several years. That's given license to a lot of dangerous

02:46:20.040 - 02:46:31.380

thoughts and dangerous patterns of conduct. I was actually very gratified that I heard President Biden last night, call out anti-Asian violence. That's something that I was

02:46:31.380 - 02:46:48.300

dealing with it, with-with before I got appointed to my commission, over, you know, 25 years ago, in fact, and I just managed to find the testimony that I gave to the Texas legislature in favor of the hate crimes bill in 1993.

02:46:48.490 - 02:47:02.960

I can share with you an original copy of that testimony. And a lot of what I said in 1993, unfortunately, is still true today. Yeah, we'd love to have the document, and I'll put in your file as well. But that's great.

02:47:03.340 - 02:47:11.970

Well, our time is up. But this is an amazing conversation we— I’ve learned so much. Thank you for sharing all of your insights and experiences with us.

02:47:12.310 - 02:47:22.820

So I think we will stop here and then the next interview that Ann will schedule we will continue with a career and then maybe with some other follow up questions and... Well, thank you. Today

02:47:28.470 - 02:47:40.360

is March 26, 2021. Here we have Dr. Anne Chao, interviewing Mr. Robert W. Gee for the third chapter of his life in, in Washington, DC.

02:47:40.830 - 02:47:51.350

Thank you so much, both of you. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. We're continuing our discussion of Bob's career. And so we ended with your role as

02:47:51.410 - 02:48:02.540

Chairman of the Texas Public Utility Commission's in the last interview, would you like to tell us how then you transition from Texas to Washington, DC? Okay, I'll be happy to do that.

02:48:03.010 - 02:48:20.420

What happened was, I was coming up— I think I had mentioned that I had served a full term on the Texas Commission for six years; and that it was not consistent with the original plan I had, which was to leave before my term expired.

02:48:21.900 - 02:48:32.440

I was going to leave after Ann Richards was re-elected in 1994, and go back to practice law. But as it turned out, that didn't happen. She was not reelected.

02:48:33.460 - 02:48:46.080

She was elected by some guy named George Bush, who never I never heard of— right? So anyway, so I was asked to stay on for two more years by the Speaker of the House, Texas Speaker of the House, which I did. And I had a great

02:48:46.080 - 02:49:01.550

time in my final two years of the six-year term. And then, near the end of my term, I think it was— this would have been the summer, thereabouts, let's say early summer of, or late spring of

02:49:01.880 - 02:49:16.610

1997. My term was set to expire, I believe, at the end of September, if I recall. But anyway, I got a phone call. And it was from some friends of mine in Washington, DC, who were at the

02:49:16.610 - 02:49:30.640

US Department of Energy. And it was on behalf of Bill White, who had– had just completed, or was about to complete his term as the Deputy Secretary of Energy in the Clinton administration,

02:49:31.150 - 02:49:44.760

which is the— for people who don't know, that's the number two spot at the department. The only person above him was the Secretary of Energy. So Bill was the senior ranking official at the US Department of

02:49:44.760 - 02:49:54.200

Energy except for the Secretary that he served under. And Bill was‚ Bill's term was expiring. And he was coming back to Texas. And as we know now, he later

02:49:54.200 - 02:50:09.540

served as— very successful, Mayor of Houston. But anyway, so I got a I got a call from his office, they said, he said, "Bill would like for you to consider coming back to Washington as a political appointee." Because a number

02:50:09.540 - 02:50:24.490

of Bill, Bill’s, Bill's colleagues, along with him, were leaving Washington, after the end of the Clinton term— and Bill Clinton had just been reelected for another term. And they wanted to get people from Texas, who were,

02:50:24.840 - 02:50:40.490

number one, well qualified; and number two, wanting to take an appointment, get appointed by the President to serve at the department. And what they had in mind was for me to go out for an appointment to be

02:50:41.030 - 02:50:56.920

the Assistant Secretary for Policy and International Affairs. And so they asked me if I was interested. And I was intrigued, I —this was something that came out of the blue. I had, I had always, in the back of my mind thought, Well, if the opportunity ever

02:50:56.920 - 02:51:04.770

arose to be a political appointee, you know, I might consider going back to Washington. But I'd never really considered it. My plans at that time,

02:51:04.770 - 02:51:19.250

were simply to go back to the practice of law, perhaps stay in Austin indefinitely, and go back to the private sector. So I talked to my wife and asked her what I should do. And she said, "Well, if you think this makes sense,

02:51:19.640 - 02:51:30.730

from a career standpoint, I will go with you. You know, let's go, let's go to Washington." I said, "Well, it'll be a completely different experience." She'd never lived anywhere outside of Texas, since she arrived in Houston when

02:51:30.730 - 02:51:50.210

she was five years old. So I told my friends, yes, I am interested. So they advise me on how to put together my application for an appointment, all the credentials I needed. Congressional letters, the letters from, from state

02:51:50.210 - 02:52:03.290

government, elected officials, the usual portfolio that's required for political appointment. And then all of my background history, you know, I needed to prepare also just to put together an information packet for, for the

02:52:03.290 - 02:52:12.920

White House personnel office to do that; to see whether I would, in fact, get the appointment. There's nothing that's ever sure. So that was in the works.

02:52:13.800 - 02:52:30.980

And then, around the same time, perhaps even a month after that, I got a phone call from a person who I knew who was already in the Clinton administration also, who I've been working closely with. And that was the-then chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,

02:52:31.760 - 02:52:47.000

which is the agency that regulates natural gas and oil pipelines in the United States along with the electric grid, in wholesale markets. And I have worked with this woman, Betsy Moeller, over the last couple of years

02:52:47.000 - 02:53:00.120

very closely on energy policy matters as a representative of the states. Because I was very active in testifying on Capitol Hill, she followed what I was doing, I had many meetings with her, she spoke at a number of meetings with me,

02:53:00.580 - 02:53:17.300

throughout the country. She called me up and said to me, “Bob,” she says, "I am leaving for, I'm leaving the commission. And I would like to recommend your name to the White House, to take my seat, to take the seat on the commission." And I was

02:53:17.430 - 02:53:34.700

very flattered. And I said to her, "Well, I really appreciate that," I said, "but I understand having worked on the commission staff that the real power really is the Chairmanship of the Commission. What are my chances of getting your job as a Chair?" And she said, "Well..." That's beyond

02:53:34.700 - 02:53:47.710

for her to decide, that would be really a function of my political strength in the White House, who’d like to marshall, to support me. And so she advised me to cultivate that and find out.

02:53:47.960 - 02:54:05.050

But she wanted to know that she was sending my name over to the White House, to– to recommend that I be appointed to take at least that vacancy, that she would free up on the commission. And so, so what happened was my name was actually being vetted for two positions

02:54:05.660 - 02:54:17.190

by the White House at that time. I didn't say no. But, you know, I, I needed to ultimately make a decision at some point, because I couldn't be appointed to two different jobs, obviously.

02:54:17.870 - 02:54:35.680

And so as, as several weeks went by, and then finally, I did make some calls to determine my ability to take a chairmanship, to be appointed as Chair by the President of the of the Commission, and was told by political advisors that, that was probably out of, out

02:54:35.680 - 02:54:47.050

of, out of their reach. And so I accepted that. So it was, it was really a question whether I just want to be a commissioner, or, or to go to the Department of Energy to head an office that was very different from the

02:54:48.020 - 02:55:01.870

type functions I was accustomed to in Texas. And so, about that time, I got a phone call from the White House personnel office, it was a friend of mine, who I had met, she was an Asian American, Chinese American, who was a

02:55:02.430 - 02:55:15.700

friend of mine, who had been working White House personnel since the beginning of the Clinton Administration, or thereabouts. And she, I had known her, she was the chief aide to a US senator from Illinois.

02:55:15.910 - 02:55:30.660

"Bob," she said, "the White House is looking at your name right now for two appointments. We're vetting you for two different positions." She said, "We— you need to decide." She said, "We can't continue vetting you.

02:55:31.130 - 02:55:42.580

And you know, you're not going to get two appointments, you're only going to get one, which one do you want?" And at that point, I had to make a decision. I said, "Well," I said— and the woman's name was Nancy Chen, a dear friend of mine,

02:55:43.080 - 02:55:53.750

"Nancy, you know what, let me go for the appointment at the Department of Energy, it is so different from what I was accustomed to, because it did have the portfolio of international affairs.

02:55:54.420 - 02:56:09.880

And all of my work up to this point had been really domestically focused— both in the state of Texas and you know, at parts, parts of the United States, this would be a very different job from what I had previously performed, it would broaden my horizons. So I went out for the DOE appointment, and

02:56:09.880 - 02:56:23.110

declined to be considered for the appointment to the FERC." And so several weeks went by after that, and I completed my portfolio, my application. And then I would say

02:56:23.110 - 02:56:33.910

around, this would have been probably around mid summer or maybe early August. I got a phone call. And it was from Federico Pena.

02:56:34.220 - 02:56:47.120

I was sitting in my office at the commission at my day job. I think it was late in the afternoon, I was sitting there, my phone rang. And my staff usually screens my calls.

02:56:47.160 - 02:56:59.510

I can't remember whether they screened this, or whether it was a call that just went through because it was late in the day. But in any event, I picked up the phone. And the first voice I heard was a gentleman who said, "Bob," he said,

02:57:00.130 - 02:57:12.580

"Hi, this is Federico Pena." He says, "How are you doing?" And I said, "I'm doing fine, Mr. Secretary." It was, it was the, the Energy Secretary. He said, "Bob," he said, "I have decided to

02:57:12.610 - 02:57:27.710

recommend to the White House that you'd be appointed to be my secretary, my assistant secretary for Policy and International Affairs." And I said, "Mr. Secretary, I'm very flattered." I said, "I knew that I'd been

02:57:27.710 - 02:57:42.490

considered." I said, "So I, I guess this is your, your phone call to me and tell me I've got the job?" He said, "Yes." He said, "Consider it done." He said, "The next, the next people you'll be

02:57:42.560 - 02:57:57.450

in touch with is White House Personnel office, they will send you, they will mail you by express a packet of forms that you need to fill out for your vetting. You need to get an FBI background check." And you know, and the usual

02:57:57.450 - 02:58:11.080

vetting of the White House and said, "My recommendation is when you get this very, very thick packet, go lock yourself in a closet for the next three days and fill out those forms." He said, "I look forward to working with

02:58:11.080 - 02:58:21.870

you." He said, "I've got to go. But you know, I'm very happy. I hope you are. And I'll see you when you get to Washington." And what had happened before that, let me explain.

02:58:22.660 - 02:58:37.130

I had actually gone up to meet him, probably, maybe about two or three weeks earlier. I flew up and had an interview with him. But I didn't know what, what had become —I actually met him previously.

02:58:37.130 - 02:58:49.430

And he asked me a number of questions. So I hung up the phone, and I considered that to be a done deal. And then, minutes later, I got a phone call from my friend, Nancy Chen.

02:58:50.040 - 02:59:02.500

She said, "Bob, what are you doing?" I said, "I'm in my office." She says, "Can you, can you, can you take this phone call on a confidential basis?" I said, "Sure." And she said, "I want to let you know, I just ran

02:59:02.500 - 02:59:18.940

into Federico Pena at the White House. We saw each other at a going-away party for one of my colleagues. And I urged him, I urged him that he needed to choose you from the shortlist that he was considering to be appointed to that job." And I

02:59:18.940 - 02:59:30.540

said, "Nancy, I think he beat you to the punch. I just got a phone call from him. And he informed me that he made his decision to recommend my name to the White House." And she said, "Oh my god, really?" And I said, "Yeah," she

02:59:30.590 - 02:59:44.480

said, "Oh, I just saw him minutes ago." And she said, "You know what? He must have called you from his car after he left the White House going back to back to his office." She said, "That's terrific." I said, "Well, Nancy, I said, I want you to know, I

02:59:44.560 - 03:00:00.580

really appreciate the fact that you took me, you got me over the finish line; I'll never forget that." And so the lesson I take away from this, in addition to everything else I've said, which is that you got to work hard, to make sure that you're the master of your craft, you have to position yourself,

03:00:00.640 - 03:00:08.520

you have to be able to, you know, act when the timing is right. This is not an individual effort. This is— your success is going to be the

03:00:08.520 - 03:00:20.560

product of an ensemble. It'll be your network that will carry you forward. And what I learned was that I was lucky to have had a friend of the White House at the personnel office, who got me across the

03:00:20.610 - 03:00:31.830

finish line. Let me tell a small anecdote. Fast forward. This was about maybe a couple of years after that. I was already at the Department for a couple of years, was very active.

03:00:32.750 - 03:00:48.370

I had an opportunity to go to Chicago, by that time, Nancy had left Washington, she had gone back to her hometown of Chicago. If you recall, I have family in Chicago. And so I was invited to do a speaking event in Chicago that was

03:00:48.940 - 03:01:05.580

hosted by a community relations group; they're very well known in Chicago. And what happened was, my family who were very active in Chinatown in Chicago, worked to put together a community event to host me at a reception that evening.

03:01:06.600 - 03:01:17.000

And at the reception was Nancy Chen, my good friend. And so I had a, at the reception, they asked me to say a few words. And I did but before I got into

03:01:17.000 - 03:01:30.280

my remarks, I wanted everybody to know that their community leader Nancy Chen, was the one who got me over the finish line. And everybody was heartened by the fact that it was, it was, the event was, was a celebration—

03:01:30.280 - 03:01:46.310

celebration the fact that I was, in their mind really, in many respects, a son of Chicago. Because my family was from Chicago, and they were still there, my mother had left; but, you know, I was sort of a native of Chicago, at

03:01:46.310 - 03:01:59.150

least in part because I'd spent my summers there. But also I wanted them to know that one of their community leaders played a key role in my success. It it gave me an opportunity to shine the light on her at that occasion, and

03:01:59.620 - 03:02:13.480

to thank her publicly for having taken me over the finish line. And that's the same lesson I learned both in that appointment as well as my state appointment where I had a very good friend also take me across the finish line at

03:02:13.480 - 03:02:29.360

the time the decision was made. These acts don't occur simply because you happen to be qualified, you have to be that, plus, you have to have the ability to have a network in place for people who can vouch for you, who can get

03:02:29.360 - 03:02:43.360

you across the finish line. So that's how I wound up being appointed to the US Department of Energy. And then later that year, after my name, my name was ultimately announced by the White House publicly, in

03:02:43.890 - 03:02:57.320

around August. My term was about to expire about a month I remember. And so I was, I took a vacation. This is really, I took a vacation in early September with my wife, took some time

03:02:57.320 - 03:03:08.910

off, took two weeks on a European cruise, first big vacation ever, since I had been working in state government for six years. And while we, while

03:03:08.910 - 03:03:24.600

our ship had been docked in the north of France, we had just taken a tender from the shore back to the ship, got back to our cabin. And I saw a note on my, on my desk in the cabin.

03:03:25.250 - 03:03:39.560

And it said, "Call Washington DC immediately. — US Department of Energy." I looked at the phone number. And there I was, you know, in France, and my wife said, "What was it?" I said, "The people in Washington want me to make a call."

03:03:39.560 - 03:03:52.180

So I had a choice well gee, when I knew the rates calling from the ship, it was gonna be like, you know, I'd have to go out and take a loan to do ship-to-shore, a long distance. And I said, "You know what," I said, I told my wife and said, "We have

03:03:52.180 - 03:04:06.990

a few more hours here before the ship leaves. I got to go back on shore and find a payphone." I got back on the tender, it took me back to the, back to the, to the, to the, to the pier where we were the tenders of discharge, the

03:04:06.990 - 03:04:20.090

batch. I got off and looked for a payphone, literally found a payphone right there on the beach side, next to the pier; and, you know, managed to get through an international operator, I don't remember how I did that.

03:04:20.870 - 03:04:36.890

Told them, gave them, I think I gave them my credit card number to charge the call whatever was necessary. And I connected with the Department of Energy, it was a woman who was in charge of Congressional Affairs at the department. I managed to get her at the office before she left, even with the time

03:04:36.890 - 03:04:47.370

difference between France and United States. And I said, "What's– what's up?" A She said, “So first of all, where are you?" So I said, "I'm in France right now." She said, "When do you will return to United

03:04:47.370 - 03:05:01.400

States?" I said, "Well," I think it was like, I think it was like a Wednesday and so, "I think we're scheduled to have the ship to return back to our point of disembarkation by Friday.

03:05:01.400 - 03:05:15.620

We're supposed to catch a plane that will get us back into maybe the United States on, on, on Saturday." She said, "Okay. Can you come to... can you get to Washington on Monday?" I said, "Well, I got

03:05:15.620 - 03:05:28.710

to go back to Texas first. But I think I can manage to you know, schedule a flight once I get back to Texas, to Washington by Sunday night." She said, "Good." She said, "Here's the deal." She says, "Your congressional

03:05:28.800 - 03:05:40.690

hearing is scheduled for Thursday. You have to get to Washington by Monday. Because we have got to work, work on you to prepare you for your, your, your Senate hearing.

03:05:42.320 - 03:05:53.880

And you're going to be run through a battery of what we call— you'll have a whole stack of documents that we've already prepared for you to read. And you have to go through what we call a murder board process, which is basically we go through a

03:05:53.880 - 03:06:03.250

mock hearing with you and test you on questions we think the members of the Senate are going to ask you, so that you can go in, go in and look look like you, you know what you're doing."

03:06:04.400 - 03:06:15.520

So I said fine. So I hung up the phone, got back on the ship, told my wife and said, "Well," I said, "The good news is vacation is not gonna be interrupted. We're going to get back to the ship.

03:06:15.900 - 03:06:26.410

The ship is going to go back to wherever we disembark." I think at that time, we're supposed to leave from Rome or whatever. I don't know, can't even remember where we were at.

03:06:26.410 - 03:06:43.790

I said, "but I got to hop on a plane to Washington on Sunday. And I got to be in Washington for the rest of the week." Which she said was fine. So that's what happened. I got to Washington, early Monday morning, walked into the Department of Energy, there was a team of

03:06:43.790 - 03:06:53.810

people waiting for me. I walked into a room. Room was filled with probably about maybe eight or nine people. And all I remember were

03:06:53.870 - 03:07:09.550

like stacks of black binders, like more paper than I've ever seen in a single place in quite some time. And they said, they said to me, "You don't need to read everything that's in here. But you need to know at least, you know

03:07:09.610 - 03:07:21.120

the content of a little bit of something in each of these. And so we're going to walk you through this for the next several days, to... you got to take this back with you, back to your hotel.

03:07:21.620 - 03:07:32.390

And you got to study this and come back every day. So by the time your hearing comes up later in the week, you know you're going to be prepped." So that's what I did. And then ultimately, I did my hearing.

03:07:32.960 - 03:07:45.510

It was– it was not that cumbersome. I was on a panel with, I think three other nominees. I didn't get asked that many questions. And then I flew back to, back to Texas.

03:07:45.530 - 03:07:59.920

And what happened was, until my appointment was confirmed by the full Senate, I couldn't really work in my official capacity. But what they did was they, they did a contract with me and as they do with most appointees, I

03:07:59.920 - 03:08:13.420

did– I did a consulting agreement for them, for the department. And they had me fly up to Washington every week. I rotated, I, my official address was still in Texas, a contract provided for me to live in Texas.

03:08:13.890 - 03:08:25.870

But I needed to come to Washington every week. And so what I did was so the next several weeks, I remember flying back and forth between Washington and Austin, it was really kind of funny, I would hop on a plane on Sunday night, get to

03:08:25.870 - 03:08:41.330

Washington, be in the office until Thursday; Thursday evening, fly back to Austin; spend three days with my wife... and I would just rotate back and forth. And the irony is I wasn't really allowed to do anything

03:08:41.330 - 03:08:50.850

substantive. I couldn't hold a meeting. I, they said if you attend the meeting, you don't, you're not supposed to sit at the head of the table. You're only supposed to sit and monitor because we can't have you do anything official.

03:08:52.030 - 03:09:04.380

And what I did primarily was sit in an office and read a lot of news clips for the next several weeks, and got paid for it. It was just really kind of a strange, strange way to serve the government.

03:09:04.380 - 03:09:19.280

And then I remember I was... by that time, I'd already arranged to have my wife... I've rented an apartment, or I was negotiating a lease for the apartment. I, my wife did come up to– to join me and was

03:09:19.280 - 03:09:33.780

staying with me at– at the– at the short term apartment that I was– I was– I was renting. And then one evening, while we were preparing dinner, I got a phone call, out of the blue, I remember it was 7pm at night in the middle

03:09:33.780 - 03:09:48.390

of October. And it was the same woman that I've been working with in Congressional Affairs since the beginning. It was a very short phone call. And I said, "Hello." And then she says, she says, "Hi Bob.

03:09:48.390 - 03:09:56.150

This is so-and-so." I said, "Oh! How are you doing?" She said, "You were just confirmed by the Senate. Congratulations." I said, "Oh! Thank you!" She said, "Great.

03:09:56.470 - 03:10:11.120

Talk to you later. Bye bye." I was actually— the phone call lasted like 15 seconds. I’d just been confirmed by the full Senate. So I was good to go. So that meant I needed to show up the next day and meet my

03:10:11.120 - 03:10:20.370

staff and assume office. So I took the, took the metro to town that morning. And then at that point, it was a world of difference.

03:10:21.310 - 03:10:33.000

I finally got to meet my official staff, they were all ready again, they were waiting for me with briefing books, tons of briefing books, briefing meetings. I had multiple meetings with my staff.

03:10:33.610 - 03:10:49.320

I was, I had, in my immediate staff, more people than I had in Texas, I must have had at one point about six staff that reported directly to me. One woman was just in charge of my schedule. I had two, I had a Chief of Staff, an acting

03:10:49.320 - 03:11:00.240

Chief of Staff. I had a Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary who reported directly to me. And I had two Deputy Assistant Secretaries who reported to me. And so I

03:11:00.240 - 03:11:14.710

was off and running and it was nonstop from that time forward for the next— literally the next three and a half years. It was just a wild ride. It was one of the most, one of the most demanding jobs I've ever had in my life,

03:11:15.250 - 03:11:29.930

even in many respects, even more demanding as a State Utility Commissioner. The State Utility Commissioner, your work primarily is done behind the scenes, and you go attend meetings and vote on pending matters.

03:11:30.380 - 03:11:44.880

This job was substantially different. It required a lot more internal meetings with staff at the department, many meetings directly face to face with the Energy Secretary himself. I, at that point in that job, I must have been having

03:11:45.140 - 03:11:59.450

meetings with him. My whole— my office was down the hallway from him. He was at one end— we were on the top floor of our building, which is still the same building— Forrestal Building, at 1000 Independence Avenue SW,

03:11:59.490 - 03:12:12.440

Washington. His office was the best office of all. No surprise. A huge suite with a, with a picture window that looked out on the Capitol dome. Very much like the Capitol dome you see in the picture behind me.

03:12:13.300 - 03:12:27.980

My office was on the other end of the hallway, on the opposite end of the building, I did not have a Capitol dome view, but I could look down on the Washington Monument. It has a spectacular view on the highest floor of the

03:12:27.980 - 03:12:45.110

department. But what that meant was for me to see him, I had to walk all the way down the length of the building each time, which took probably, depending on my, on my pace, at least, literally five to seven minutes to walk that long

03:12:45.370 - 03:13:00.560

hallway. And I must have been walking down that hallway at sometimes maybe eight times a day round trip to go see him. He would, he would call me in, I would sit in on joint meetings with a number of other officials, where he's being

03:13:00.860 - 03:13:13.160

briefed on something and I would need to be there at the table to listen in or chime in; or sometimes he would do, want to do one-on-one meetings, or meetings with me and my staff. Because there were a lot of critical matters

03:13:13.160 - 03:13:26.090

that had international affairs impacts that he needed me to be at, to advise them on, with the trips that he had scheduled overseas. I needed to prep him on those overseas trips.

03:13:27.040 - 03:13:39.480

I would, my staff would give me a set of proposed talking points that we would develop as a draft, send to him; he would review them and then call me in on a meeting to go over his talking points.

03:13:40.380 - 03:13:55.850

We had a lot of meetings like that where we would prep him on on meetings, that he would have to engage him. At that point, the focus was on– on international affairs. But similarly, if there were domestic matters that came up, since my– my

03:13:55.850 - 03:14:09.910

portfolio did also pertain to domestic energy policy, I would have to prep them on that. But we spent a lot of time, spending meetings we would– we would prep him. And then I had to do my own External Affairs meetings, where I would meet

03:14:09.960 - 03:14:24.720

with senior officials from other countries, either here in Washington, they would come see me at the office, or I would meet them overseas. And my overseas travel, overseas travel commitments, really

03:14:25.170 - 03:14:38.950

started almost the month that I arrived at the department. I remember my very first trip that I had scheduled that was scheduled for me the month I arrived, I had to go to Moscow, as the head of a multi-agency

03:14:40.620 - 03:14:56.430

delegation to head up to set up the G7 Energy Ministerial Meeting that was going to be convened in Moscow in the spring. And with me, were representatives from the Commerce Department, State Department, CIA, and

03:14:58.490 - 03:15:13.480

as well as some senior officials from my own department. And it was a learning experience. I remember, we– we spent about maybe four days in Moscow, setting up that, setting up that ministerial meeting.

03:15:14.660 - 03:15:29.760

And then that was, it was a baptism under fire— just learning the job, totally unfamiliar with the issues, being addressed, with having to be briefed. I remember before my—I took the plane to

03:15:29.760 - 03:15:47.760

Moscow, one of my assistants walked into my room and said, "Would you like a counterintelligence briefing?" And I said, "What's that?" And they said, "Well, that's usually the type of briefing you undergo when you're going

03:15:47.760 - 03:16:04.190

to a country with which we don't have friendly relations. It's a briefing on what to expect in terms of what they try to do to basically steal information from you while you're there." I said, "Well, if you think it's important, yes." So

03:16:04.190 - 03:16:20.820

they said, "Okay, we'll set that up." And I remember, I had to sit on the counter intelligence briefing, this gentleman walked in my room. He introduced himself to me, he said, "I'm here with the, with your security office here at the Department." My name is so-and-so and we sat down.

03:16:20.820 - 03:16:34.310

And then he said, he said, "You should also know that I wear two hats." He reached into his coat and pulled out some credentials and flipped it open with his name. HeHe said, he said, "I'm also..." he said, "I actually am with the Central Intelligence

03:16:34.380 - 03:16:50.240

Agency. And I'm detailed to work here as a DOE advisor. So I'm not just on the DOE payroll," he said, "My actual employer is CIA." And so you know, what you're doing, this is, this is actually a briefing from

03:16:50.240 - 03:17:04.570

CIA. I said, "I'm perfectly fine with that." And so he advised me on the steps that are on the, on the, on the, on the things to watch out for while in Russia. The fact that I needed to not take any classified information with

03:17:04.570 - 03:17:19.800

me, that if I had a computer, that I you know, that if I left in the hotel, that I should expect that computer would be penetrated while I was gone, that they would download anything on that computer, that a camera would monitor

03:17:20.010 - 03:17:28.910

all of my actions. So I kept thinking, this is really a different world. So that, that was my very first trip overseas. And I do remember taking another trip back to Moscow.

03:17:30.810 - 03:17:40.610

Probably, let's see, there was another. I took at least two trips to Moscow that I did go back to Moscow with the Secretary later in the spring.

03:17:40.610 - 03:17:52.840

I do remember that. And that was also interesting. But I’m trying to remember whether, whether there might have been another meeting between them, and that one. But on the second trip I took the Moscow, which was with the Secretary.

03:17:53.800 - 03:18:08.880

That was very, that was fascinating. We were hosted by the US ambassador to Russia, at that time, went to the embassy. I met this, met the ambassador, he was very, very warm,

03:18:09.720 - 03:18:25.240

very, very knowledgeable about Russian affairs and spoke fluent Russian. And I remember we had a meeting with him. And I got, I got introduced to the world of counterintelligence in the US Embassy, where instead of having a

03:18:25.320 - 03:18:40.860

meeting, just in a regular office room at the embassy, they had a secure room and the... or, secure complex in the embassy, which meant that the meeting had to occur, it— literally deep underneath the embassy itself,

03:18:41.660 - 03:18:55.770

in a what they call a SCIF. A SCIF is an acronym for some type of secure apart— compartment, which is built by the US government. And then the other experience I remember from that trip is walking through the US Embassy

03:18:55.770 - 03:19:12.190

complex and meeting the diplomats who were based at the US Embassy. And one big takeaway I had in my international travels, I always had the support of a US Embassy, US embassy staff, as a senior official. They always gave me

03:19:12.190 - 03:19:22.530

tremendous support. I traveled with consular officials, the whole time I was there. They were responsible not only for arranging my meetings, but also my body security.

03:19:24.440 - 03:19:36.930

And when I was in Russia, I walked down the hallways and met with a lot of State Department and diplomatic officials posted in Russia. They were all very, very fluent in

03:19:36.970 - 03:19:51.260

Russia, Russian language, Russian affairs, maybe many of them had majored in Russian, Russian history and government, subject matter experts. And I saw on the wall— I remember it was, it was really interesting— I saw

03:19:51.260 - 03:20:05.020

on the wall, a set of decorations that were handed out to diplomatic, US diplomatic officials. During the period of the turmoil in the Soviet Union, when there was a putsch,

03:20:06.510 - 03:20:22.840

which was described as an effort to overthrow the government, there was a military putsch that was trying to oust Mikhail Govbachev in the early 90s. And at that point, the world was on edge.

03:20:22.890 - 03:20:35.370

And I remember I just only remember vaguely because I wasn't something that I focused on. But I remember vaguely that the world was on edge that the government of Russia was going to fail and be taken over by the military.

03:20:36.310 - 03:20:52.930

And the awards were for the US diplomatic officials who stayed at their posts during a period of not just days, but maybe a week or so, or multiple weeks, to monitor the situation and

03:20:52.930 - 03:21:12.150

report back to the US, to the, to the State Department in Washington, real time information, so that we would know, you know, what the, what the nature of the threat was, if the Russian government was to fail, and what it would mean. Because what it would mean is Russia had at its disposal,

03:21:12.790 - 03:21:26.240

even after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, a nuclear arsenal that was at risk. And we were afraid that if the Russian military, without government control, managed to

03:21:26.240 - 03:21:39.760

get a hold of nuclear weapons, the entire world, including the United States, could be at risk. And so the awards went to the diplomatic personnel who stayed at their posts literally, uninterrupted during that critical period.

03:21:39.760 - 03:21:52.380

And I saw that and I said, you know, "This is a story that most Americans don't know about. I've never seen anything quite like that." And frankly, I've never seen anything quite like that, like that in any other US Embassy.

03:21:52.380 - 03:22:05.670

And I traveled to many other embassies during the course of my tenure at the department. And I thought it was, what it told me was that we really take for granted, the diligence and bravery of our-of our men and women who serve in

03:22:05.710 - 03:22:20.580

the Diplomatic Corps in e, in these critical overseas posts. And as an American, I was quite proud. That's a fascinating view into the inner workings of how to the-the White House as a political appointees

03:22:21.530 - 03:22:34.600

move through the important transitions. This is just thank you for all sharing the details. I wonder if you could talk about some of your proudest achievement in the Energy, Department of Energy, you mentioned the PUNT accord

03:22:35.110 - 03:22:46.440

that you signed in China, for instance. Yes. I was the head of the International Affairs Office. At the time I wore, I wore two different hats. My first year was at an international...

03:22:46.650 - 03:22:59.640

Policy and International. And then, the next two and a half years, I was the Head of what was called the Fossil Energy Office, which is responsible for a research and development mission. But while I was Head of the International Affairs, I was a member of the Clinton

03:22:59.910 - 03:23:14.340

delegation, the presidential mission in, I believe, early summer... late spring, early summer of 1998. I remember that my role there was, I was told

03:23:14.620 - 03:23:28.790

beforehand, that my role was to participate in the signing of an agreement that I wasn't really apprised of all the details before the trip. I took with me, a very knowledgeable Deputy Assistant Secretary

03:23:29.270 - 03:23:42.020

who preceded me at the department. He knew all the details. And I remember literally sitting in my hotel room being briefed by him on what this agreement was all about, what it was attempting to achieve.

03:23:42.080 - 03:23:54.660

And it was called the "Peaceful Uses of Nuclear Technology Agreement" under the acronym, P-U-N-T, "PUNT," the PUNT agreement. And its purpose

03:23:54.660 - 03:24:13.770

was to establish a framework by which the United States would consent to the technology transfer of nuclear technology, proprietary nuclear—civilian nuclear technology to

03:24:13.770 - 03:24:25.350

the Chinese government, for civilian nuclear reactor purposes. And as part of that, that as part of that undertaking, which is similar or which is common now, with other countries.

03:24:25.940 - 03:24:45.430

We had China also signed a, an agreement, which is a binding agreement, to agree to nuclear non-proliferation, and to being open to a examination by the multilateral agency called the International

03:24:47.590 - 03:25:05.540

Atomic Energy Agency, who would send teams of inspectors into a signatory of that agreement to ensure compliance that this nuclear technology would not be diverted towards weapons uses; that it would be confined and, and siloed,

03:25:05.540 - 03:25:21.500

and safeguarded, limited only to the development of nuclear reactor, civilian reactor technology. And that's called the— it's called the PUNT agreement. It later became known as a what they call a 123 agreement, which, which

03:25:21.500 - 03:25:38.330

is Section 123 of the Atomic Energy Act, which is the protocols that the US government requires as a precondition for any country to be able to acquire civilian US nuclear technology.

03:25:38.860 - 03:25:52.710

We've done similar agreements with other countries since then, but it's my understanding that that was a pioneering agreement that we did with China and ultimately... You know, at the time, I didn't know what the consequence was, I knew what

03:25:52.710 - 03:26:03.080

the agreement was, was supposed to achieve. And I shared with you a photograph of the signing of that agreement, it was— that photograph was taken at the Great Hall of the People.

03:26:04.740 - 03:26:20.320

And it was my, I signed the agreement, and on behalf of the Chinese was a gentleman named Zhang Guobao, who at the time was the Vice Minister for the— what was called the ministry...

03:26:22.160 - 03:26:43.420

Let's see, the State Development Planning, Commission, which later, later became the National Development Reform Commission— well, it had a different acronym after that, but he was the Chief Signatory.

03:26:43.480 - 03:26:57.290

And he later, he, he actually became known as the equivalent of the Energy Secretary of China. And I saw him after he left his official post and came to the United States on different

03:26:57.530 - 03:27:11.420

diplomatic visits on behalf of the Chinese. And so that was a pioneer agreement that I took part in, in fact, you can actually see the agreement. As recently as five years ago, I saw the agreement posted on the DOE website.

03:27:11.720 - 03:27:23.440

I don't know if it's still there. And you can actually see my name, actually, I actually have a copy, a PDF copy of that agreement. I could send it for your records. And you can see my name to the agreement.

03:27:24.320 - 03:27:44.220

But that was probably the most significant international agreement that I signed on behalf of the US government while I was at the US Department of Energy. Do you think the fact that you're of Chinese descent had some effect on the Chinese official that you met?

03:27:44.280 - 03:28:01.720

Was there more room for negotiation or understanding because you're a Chinese? No, the agreement had already been negotiated before I showed up to sign. I can't tell you though, that being ethnic Chinese, really drew a lot of attention from the Chinese.

03:28:02.420 - 03:28:10.570

They didn't know who I was. They... I know that they asked a lot of questions; we were asking a lot of questions of them as well, I should add. But I think they, I

03:28:10.620 - 03:28:23.510

think all of us kind of shared some small irony, in the fact that if you look at the picture, you see, you know, two people sitting at the table, one Chinese and one ethnic Chinese, who's actually an American, with a, with an

03:28:23.510 - 03:28:38.740

American flag there, and with an American delegation standing behind him. I would like to think that my being ethnic Chinese, w- was really in many respects, a high point for our community here in the United States, to

03:28:39.520 - 03:28:56.080

demonstrate that we also can act on behalf of our own government. And that being ethnic Chinese, was not a barrier to my participating in that event. And hopefully might have been something as a bridge to demonstrate to

03:28:56.080 - 03:29:09.570

the Chinese that we wanted to work with them cooperatively. Now, having said that, I know that US-China relations are now really at this point, at a very low point. So that might have been probably, you know, 20 years

03:29:09.570 - 03:29:24.780

ago, you know, one of the high points in our relations. The thing that occurred to me, years later that I had not anticipated, was that, that did enable for the sale of Westinghouse's nuclear energy technology to China.

03:29:26.120 - 03:29:41.280

Westinghouse had a cutting edge nuclear power design called the AP-1000. And they sold that technology to the Chinese. And it enabled the building I think of around

03:29:43.280 - 03:30:02.960

four nuclear units in China, two of which I've actually visited on two subsequent trips to China, with a US hosted delegation. I remember going to China in 2008, meeting with Westinghouse, getting a briefing on the plant in

03:30:02.960 - 03:30:15.090

Shanghai. It was called the Sanmen plant. It was still under construction. And having a dinner hosted by Westinghouse, and they thanked me for signing the agreement 10 years early.

03:30:16.770 - 03:30:31.630

I, that was not something that I planned that was done in my private capacity. I was a contractor to the US Department of Energy and brought to China a team of state officials, state utility regulators actually to meet with the Chinese, and to meet with Westinghouse to educate them

03:30:31.630 - 03:30:40.810

on what– what was going on in terms of our cooperation with China on nuclear technology. But I did have a chance to meet with Westinghouse, they thanked me.

03:30:41.290 - 03:30:52.220

And then we did take a visit to the very first plant of that type that was sold to the Chinese to watch the plant under construction. In fact, I went back to Shanghai twice. I went to Shanghai the first

03:30:52.220 - 03:31:06.890

time to see it under construction. And I went back, I believe would probably about a year or two years later, back to Shanghai. And at that time the plant was about to be activated. So I got, I had the privilege of seeing,

03:31:07.530 - 03:31:21.240

essentially, the work that I had done on behalf of the US government 10 years early. It's amazing. You also mentioned that one of your favorite vignettes is your, you were in the West Wing of

03:31:21.240 - 03:31:33.750

the White House, would you like to share some of that story? Oh, this is, this is a story that I've shared in public. I always... it usually, it almost comes at the end of every talk that I've given to different groups.

03:31:34.400 - 03:31:50.450

Where I talk about my, my experience in the government, and in it, I use it as an example of somebody who found himself at a, at a, at an event that I could not have predicted

03:31:52.460 - 03:32:09.830

beyond my wildest imagination, while growing up in Houston. And then also, even while I was the State Commissioner, because I think if you recall, when I, when I, when I began state government service, it was 1991, I believe, when

03:32:10.470 - 03:32:27.040

I was appointed to the Public Utility Commission, my very first appointed job as a state official. And the event that I'm about to describe occurred about seven years later. And to think that I would go from being a virtual

03:32:27.500 - 03:32:44.600

unknown until October of 1997, until this event, and I think this was probably around fall of '97, or spring of '90... winter of '97, or spring of '98, I can't remember exactly when the meeting was.

03:32:45.310 - 03:32:59.780

Within a period of seven years, even, to me was a remarkable trajectory. And what happened was, I was working, what am I probably the biggest responsibility of my portfolio at the department was, was the

03:32:59.850 - 03:33:18.600

chair of what we call the Central Asia strategy, which was an effort by the US government to influence the building, and siting of pipelines, oil and gas pipelines, that would not be either

03:33:18.860 - 03:33:38.010

on Russian soil, or at least built in a fashion that would be beyond their influence, to–to beyond their influence to control the flow of gas or oil from that region, either from Russia, or by former members

03:33:38.540 - 03:33:54.240

of the Soviet Union, who had natural resources, but that were close to Russia, and relied on Russian routes of transit. And this is an issue today, actually, there is, even as we speak, the Biden administration is at odds with the

03:33:54.240 - 03:34:04.230

German government that's entered into an agreement for what's called a Nord Stream pipeline to bring Russian gas to, to Germany. So this is, this is still an issue 20 years later today.

03:34:04.830 - 03:34:14.890

It's not gone away. But at that time, Russia was, you know, had, had, had, had dissolved as a Soviet Union was an independent country, as were at least

03:34:14.890 - 03:34:26.820

nominally the— what we call— the newly independent states of the former Soviet Union. And so we worked with them to try to influence their decision making to help the building of pipelines that would...

03:34:27.150 - 03:34:42.620

And as part of that, also, we wanted to make sure that US companies had a role and join the opportunities for investment in infrastructure. And also they were also participants in producing that oil and gas, they had working interest in many of these countries.

03:34:42.620 - 03:34:57.480

So US companies would stand to gain, would stand to gain economically from the influence of US government. So that was what I had to do. The meeting was scheduled, a meeting was —I had attended many, many meetings with

03:34:57.590 - 03:35:10.450

other US government agencies up to that point at this at my level, working very closely with State Department specifically, met frequently with members of State Department, both in my own office as well as meetings at

03:35:10.450 - 03:35:22.650

State and participate in briefings with them. And then the Secretary himself got involved at a very senior level as well. I briefed him on what was going on.

03:35:23.360 - 03:35:39.080

I was the point person on the ground, both domestically as well as internationally. Made a number of trips, went to I remember going to Azerbaijan several times, Turkey,

03:35:40.240 - 03:35:51.020

Kazakhstan. And so I got it. I went to have a briefing with the secretary. And I was knowledgeable that there was a meeting that was being

03:35:51.020 - 03:36:03.500

scheduled in the White House. It was called a "meeting of the Principals," which meant these were typically the meetings at the sec- that the cabinet secretaries, typically, were the ones that were the leads for their departments.

03:36:05.020 - 03:36:21.380

And I was also told that, you know, usually, if you go to a meeting like that, the White House will send out a notice. And they'll ask, they'll say, "Principal plus one," which means the Secretary and a staffer, okay. But this meeting was Principals Only.

03:36:22.060 - 03:36:37.200

I knew that I was told by my staff, this is the meeting that the Secretary himself will be representing the department, you just need to go into his office and brief him. I said, "Fine." So I went in to brief him, gave him his talking points, you know, gave him a background and what to

03:36:37.200 - 03:36:50.050

expect, what the other, what we're hearing what the other offices would be, would be sharing, at least the best, to the best we knew. And that, you know, it was obviously top secret briefing, and a top secret meeting.

03:36:50.620 - 03:37:01.650

And so at the conclusion of the, of the briefing, Secretary Pena says to me, "You're joining me." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "You're coming with me to the meeting." And I said, "Mr.

03:37:01.650 - 03:37:13.480

Secretary, this is Principals Only. It's not Principals, plus one; I'm not, I've not been invited to attend." He said, "You're being invited by me to attend." "Okay, you say so.

03:37:13.480 - 03:37:24.960

I'm not gonna..." I said, "Okay." He said, "Join me down in the basement in about 30 minutes for the trip to the White House." I said fine. So I went back to my office to put my affairs in order. We, you know, I didn't know whether I

03:37:24.960 - 03:37:34.690

was gonna have an opportunity to come back to the office. I think I may, I may have come back afterwards, but told my staff where I was going. They said, "What's going on?" I said, "I'm going with the Secretary to the White

03:37:34.690 - 03:37:42.810

House in his meeting." He said, "No, no, you're not supposed to." I said, "Well, he just told me, I need to go with him." And they said, "Really?" I said, "Yeah." So I went down to the basement, got into his car.

03:37:44.400 - 03:37:53.650

The, you know, Secretary had, you know, he has a government limo, obviously, this is expected. And it's not that big a deal. I mean, when you're at a senior level, you have, you

03:37:53.650 - 03:38:08.110

have access to that— what's a carpool, you have a driver, and you've got a phone there and all that. It comes with the job. So I used it many times for myself, you know, for travel within the city. So we got in his car and went

03:38:08.110 - 03:38:22.180

over, and we went over his talking points. And I remember we got into the White House West Wing.. And I remember walking into this very small suite of offices, very dimly lit,

03:38:23.110 - 03:38:37.830

elegantly appointed, the very thick carpet. Sort of remember just people sitting at reception desk, you know, just you know, one reception desk after another a very small suite of office-offices, very quiet, kind of hush.

03:38:38.900 - 03:38:55.460

And I remember it was, that was "take your daughters to work" day. I remember that. And I remember the Secretary telling me that, that we were going to be met at the, at the White House by a woman who was, who had his two daughters.

03:38:55.460 - 03:39:09.600

He had two young elementary-school-age daughters. I think they were only probably about maybe six years old or nine years old. And they met him. We were greeted by this woman who had his two daughters there, that I

03:39:09.600 - 03:39:22.040

thought this was really neat. You know, Secretary Pena showing his daughters when he goes to work. It's like he was a very, very kind. I mean, just a very, very warm dad, talked about his daughters all the time.

03:39:22.530 - 03:39:35.340

So I said I'm here with the Secretary in the West Wing and we're here with his family, at least his– his two daughters. And so he said he told his daughters, "I'm gonna take this, daddy is going to take you to the room that

03:39:35.340 - 03:39:47.860

we're that he's going to have a meeting at. So let's go downstairs." So I followed him and his family down a stairwell. I remember, it was a stairwell. It was kind of a winding staircase at that point.

03:39:49.230 - 03:39:59.160

It just seemed like a very long walk all the way down to what was at a very deep level in the White House. And then I distinctly remember it was a stairwell, wasn't an elevator.

03:39:59.890 - 03:40:11.350

And so we got to the bottom. And when I got there, it was the White House Situation Room. I know I've been to the Sit Room multiple times. And so we got there and it was, it was before

03:40:11.620 - 03:40:25.580

the meeting was to commence. Not everybody had arrived yet. But the interesting thing was, he takes his daughters into the room with me. And he says to them, "This is the room that daddy is going to have

03:40:25.580 - 03:40:39.430

his meeting in." And, and I remember that, Madeleine Albright, Secretary of State was already in the room. She was seated on the opposite end of a very long table and said hello to Secretary Pena.

03:40:39.460 - 03:40:53.290

She said, "Hi Federico." "Hi, Madeline, how you doing?" And All I remember was at that point, he told his daughters, this is the room daddy's going to do the meeting. And then he hands off his daughters back to this, to this aide, who

03:40:53.290 - 03:41:05.910

then takes his daughters and takes them upstairs. And you know, then they were going to leave the White House at that time and, you know, probably be taken home. But anyway, so before that, he leaves he leaves the room with– with his

03:41:05.940 - 03:41:19.930

family. And I'm standing there by myself with Madeleine Albright being the only person in the room on the other end. And she glares at me like, you know, she had, she's kind of staring daggers, I mean, like, "Who the heck are you?" You know,

03:41:19.930 - 03:41:28.270

this a little like, and I knew that what was going through her mind was like, "You're not supposed to be here." 'Cause it was Principals Only right? No staff.

03:41:29.150 - 03:41:45.400

So I'm standing, I'm standing there kind of like sweating bullets or just what seemed like, you know, half hour, was only probably like maybe 30 seconds. So he came, my Secretary, my boss comes back. So as he comes back, and everybody has a pre-assigned seat, he

03:41:45.400 - 03:42:00.580

has a seat with his name or name already a little name tag, name plate there, he sits down, probably maybe three seats from the, from the head of the table. He sits down, he turns to me says, "Sit right behind me." And so behind the– the

03:42:00.580 - 03:42:10.810

Principals were a row of chairs. So I plop myself directly behind him. "And don't say a word. In fact, do not say a word for the rest of the meeting,

03:42:10.890 - 03:42:22.850

right?" I'm just sitting there trying to behave like I'm furniture. And by that time, all the rest of the Principals start to flood the room. And I... To this day, I still remember all the people that were in the room.

03:42:22.850 - 03:42:31.550

It was a meeting that was organized by Madeleine Albright by the State Department. She was accompanied by a gentleman who was very well known in the Clinton administration.

03:42:32.350 - 03:42:43.460

Actually, he was very well known in the Carter administration. His name was Stuart Eizenstat. He was Jimmy Carter's domestic affairs counselor. And later, on the Clinton administration, was the Undersecretary of Energy, who

03:42:43.460 - 03:42:55.460

reported directly to Secretary Albright. He was actually going to lead the meeting on this, on this issue, is a highly classified, top secret meeting. And the Chair of the meeting, though, was at the head of the table.

03:42:55.460 - 03:43:11.520

It was Sandy Berger, who was President Clinton's National Security Advisor. But I look around the room, and I still remember, on my side of the table right after Sandy Berger. And Sandy Berger had a staffer who sat right directly behind him.

03:43:11.600 - 03:43:23.290

And it was a note taker. Right. And other than the people seated at the table, the only two people who were staffing the meeting were her and me. Everybody else

03:43:23.290 - 03:43:35.400

had been invited to the meeting, or they were representing a Principal, at the meeting now, not everybody was the actual cabinet secretary, but they were probably the number two person. They were either Cabinet Members or

03:43:35.400 - 03:43:51.870

Deputies, and Deputy Secretaries. And so at my side of the table, I remember it was Bill Cohen, who's the Secretary of Defense; Major General Henry Shelton, who was the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; my

03:43:52.910 - 03:44:08.130

Secretary, Federico Pena, and I think to his right, I believe it was Larry Summers. Larry, at that, Larry Summers at the time was, I think Deputy Treasury Secretary. He, they later became, I think, Treasury Secretary later,

03:44:08.130 - 03:44:20.960

in the Clinton administration and later became a counselor to President Obama a number of years later. I remember John Podesta being there. John Podesta at that time was Deputy Chief of Staff to Bill Clinton, later became Chief

03:44:20.960 - 03:44:36.380

of Staff to, I think to President Obama. We, on the other end of the table, I just think remember there was Secretary Albright; there was Stuart Eizenstat. I'm trying to, I'm struggling, there might have been one or two other

03:44:38.080 - 03:44:50.530

Cabinet Secretaries or deputy secretaries. But anyway, I was sitting there watching this meeting, you know, trying to remember everything. All I remember was that, during the meeting, they handed out a one sheet of paper,

03:44:51.020 - 03:45:06.210

for each of the meeting participants that have a set of points that were going to be talked about, each sheet of paper was numbered. It was announced at the beginning that all all the papers were going to be numbered, because they needed to be

03:45:06.210 - 03:45:20.370

given back at the end of the meeting, to ensure that there were no leaks. So I just remember, I'm trying to remember what I actually took notes, I probably refrained from taking any notes where anybody can see what I was trying

03:45:20.370 - 03:45:33.500

to remember, everything was being said. And anyway, the reason why I mentioned this experience that I've gone into much more detail than I have publicly, obviously, this was my most memorable experience, while I served the federal

03:45:33.500 - 03:45:48.150

government and I kept thinking to myself: firstly, in my mind was, you know, if my– if my high school classmates could see me now. That was just sort of a... I remember actually thinking that right there sitting there in this

03:45:48.170 - 03:46:04.270

meeting thinking, you know, wow. And then I thought, you know, and this is what I've said, in public, I said, "To think that somebody like me, who, a Chinese kid, who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in Houston, Texas,

03:46:05.220 - 03:46:18.440

could wind up at a meeting like this, is just just an unbelievable experience." I keep... I still pinch myself to this day thinking, "How in the world did I wind up in this meeting?" And I just

03:46:18.440 - 03:46:29.520

think, you know, and I tell people, "Only in the United States of America could something like this have happened to somebody like me." I don't know whether I was good, or whether I was lucky.

03:46:30.730 - 03:46:42.690

You know, I'd like to think there was a lot, a lot more luck, probably, that it was right timing. I, I had to impress somebody at some point for being good. I don't know whether I’d made a favorable impression.

03:46:44.090 - 03:46:59.330

But very few people that I've ever met personally, or hope to meet personally, would they have ever had an experience like this. And I can remember after that experience, going to other events and sharing the story with people who I had met in prior lives, and the

03:46:59.330 - 03:47:14.390

reaction I got was just one of complete amazement as well. Not because they thought I was unqualified, but they just thought to actually be in the room and to be listening in on a meeting like that, and to seeing all of these,

03:47:15.210 - 03:47:26.920

these Principals, these Cabinet Secretaries, who are talking about a matter of importance to the country of this character was just, it's an experience that I think I'll never forget.

03:47:26.920 - 03:47:40.910

And I hope, as long as I live, will hope to continue to tell this story to others. Oh, it's a great story. And it's really true. I think, everything you said, your qualification and luck and good timing, all played into this.

03:47:41.170 - 03:47:52.730

But I remembered at your last interview, you said that you feel like you have to prove yourself to be the best. Right you prepared as long as you work the hardest, and you prove yourself to be worthy to be part of this, of this group.

03:47:53.110 - 03:48:05.330

And it probably all came true. So what about your trips with President Clinton to China or the other experience you had in DOE? Yeah, I'll tell you that was— the trip to China that the signing of the

03:48:05.330 - 03:48:21.600

PUNT agreement was only a very small part of that whole trip. I was, I didn't have a chance to talk to President Clinton while we're there. That was... he was surrounded by other people. And by aides, yeah, but I did travel with him, and

03:48:21.600 - 03:48:34.460

got to be with him at meetings. And it was just, just an incredible experience. I'm sitting there watching him, really kind of in the room while he's being briefed by his own staff, listening in.

03:48:35.430 - 03:48:51.140

And, and also I remember being at, it was, it was a major event in China, where he had what was styled as the debate with Jiang Zemin, who I think was the Premier of China at the time.

03:48:51.450 - 03:49:04.660

It really wasn't a debate, that was styled as a debate. But it was a forum. It was more like a seminar where each side would share thoughts. But it was the very first live broadcast domestically

03:49:05.440 - 03:49:19.800

in China, of this sort with the US President engaged live with the senior leader of China. And so it was a historic event. I remember being there watching it, it was in the Great Hall of the People

03:49:20.920 - 03:49:30.440

and being there on the sidelines, watching this live. And then watching President Clinton, take a break, come back and meet with his advisors. And

03:49:30.440 - 03:49:45.010

I'm in the room and he's talking, he's, you know, he's drinking, drinking water, being coached by his, by his immediate staff. And I'm standing there watching all this. And I remember turning to my own, I had a delegation

03:49:45.630 - 03:50:02.250

with me, because I'm a senior official, I don't travel alone. I had about maybe three or four other people who accompany me, who were my direct reports were brought with me from Washington, along with other departments who were traveling with me and other other officials.

03:50:02.250 - 03:50:16.690

So I turned to my, you know, my, one of my deputy assistant secretaries and I asked him, I said, "Can you believe that we're actually here watching this?" And he says, "No." He said, he said, "I had the same response as you." He said, "We're

03:50:16.690 - 03:50:29.010

watching history unfold before our eyes, and we have a front seat." And I said, "Yeah," I said, "This is just an incredible experience." And then we did, we did, we did travel.

03:50:29.010 - 03:50:42.600

What the other event I remember that, that during that trip was the welcoming ceremony. This was, you understand this is Beijing. 1998. Not the Beijing of 2021, which is just

03:50:42.680 - 03:50:53.160

congested by automobile traffic,. And the air quality actually that time was, was, was not great. But it was not as

03:50:53.200 - 03:51:08.340

polluted by automotive emissions as it is today. It was primarily coal fired power plants that polluted the air. But I do remember, because it was, it was, they had contained the air quality, at least in the city at that time. We were

03:51:08.340 - 03:51:24.250

able to go to the welcoming ceremony at Tiananmen Square that morning. And I remember, I remember we stayed at the— what was it— the Diaoyutai Guesthouse. That was where all the entire delegation stayed.

03:51:24.480 - 03:51:35.860

I remember being and we had a, we had a van for us. I remember seeing the President and First Family walk past me. I remember, Chelsea Clinton was on a trip too. I remember seeing her, you know, she was kind of a teenager

03:51:35.860 - 03:51:48.190

at the time, walking right past, past us. And so we traveled, our delegation traveled as a motorcade down the main thoroughfare to get to Tiananmen Square.

03:51:48.990 - 03:52:03.380

And as we were traveling, the Chinese government had suspended in-city travel for everybody, for that whole area, so you could not see any traffic at all. The motor

03:52:03.380 - 03:52:17.620

travel principally was by bicycle anyway. What you saw were street barricades, and what seemed like dozens of people who were standing or standing, standing next to their bicycles, waiting for the barricades to be lifted after

03:52:17.970 - 03:52:31.300

the– after the welcoming ceremony. And it was like what seemed to go on for like, miles going down this thoroughfare, you could see all these barricades go up. That had been gone up and you can see Chinese standing

03:52:31.300 - 03:52:48.860

next to their bicycles waiting to be allowed to pass to basically traverse the major thoroughfare. And then, then we got to the Tiananmen Square, the welcoming ceremony was, was in front of the Great Hall of the People.

03:52:49.470 - 03:53:03.640

There was a, riser. We stood on a platform with, with— we were not seated, I remember distinctly that we were all kind of situated.

03:53:04.000 - 03:53:19.730

You know, they had us in rows that were ascending, you know, one row after another. And the whole welcoming ceremony lasted probably— I'm trying to think maybe around 30 to 45 minutes. But what was interesting was that it was 10 am in the morning,

03:53:21.500 - 03:53:39.300

Saturday morning in Beijing, and you could not see a soul in Tiananmen Square. The only people you saw besides us and the Chinese delegation, were the members of the military who did the pass in review in front of the

03:53:39.350 - 03:53:50.290

two, the two presidents. And that was it. And then the news cameras. The news crew, Chinese and US. Lots of national news media were there.

03:53:50.290 - 03:54:02.090

I saw a lot of reporters that I recognized from from the national news media that were there with, you know, with cameras and you know, recording this historic event. But that was just being there and watching the welcoming ceremony

03:54:02.770 - 03:54:18.950

under those conditions where there was just there were no Chinese to be found other than the ones participants ceremony was just... Of course, I've been back to China and Beijing and Tiananmen Square many times since then, right. This was my very first trip to China to Beijing anyway, at

03:54:19.580 - 03:54:30.280

that time, I'd never been to Beijing before. And I told people, you know, you have never traveled unless you were part of the US delegation, a presidential delegation, to a foreign trip.

03:54:30.730 - 03:54:47.890

Everyone we went, we had a motorcade, you know, with sirens and everything's like, express transportation in China. Quite an experience. The other thing I remembered on that trip, too, we met with the congressional delegation that was also on the trip.

03:54:49.280 - 03:55:02.090

We traveled on the bus with them. And I think I shared with you some photographs of traveling what we call a CoDel—Congressional Delegation, and it included people like Senator Max Baucus, he was at that time Chairman

03:55:02.630 - 03:55:19.610

of Senate Foreign Affairs; Representative Ed Markey, now at the US Senate from Massachusetts. As you know, Max Baucus was appointed by President Obama to be a US ambassador to China. He succeeded Gary Locke.

03:55:20.860 - 03:55:36.710

And so he was there. Doris Matsui, who was at that time, the head of the White House Office of PublicEngagement. She later got elected to serve in Congress after her husband Bob Matsui, a dear

03:55:36.770 - 03:55:48.500

friend of mine died, and now serves California. Gene Sperling, who was on the White House Council of Economic Advisers; later became Chair of that for the Obama.

03:55:49.120 - 03:56:06.340

And I've remembered also that Janet Yellen was on the trip. She was the Chair of the Council at that time, spent some time talking to her during that trip. And now she serves as our Treasury Secretary in the Biden administration. And whenever I see Janet Yellen on the television news

03:56:06.340 - 03:56:22.690

programs, I remember the time that I was with her in Beijing. And so we had an opportunity to go to the Great Wall, and to see the Forbidden City. But one distinct recollection I have was sitting next to the great John Dingell, who spent years chairing

03:56:22.690 - 03:56:33.470

the House Committee on Commerce, very powerful member of Congress, for many years from Michigan, his wife, Deborah Dingell succeeded, him, now serves in Congress in that seat.

03:56:33.520 - 03:56:45.120

But I sat next to him while we were traveling through Beijing. And he, I knew that he was something of a China history expert. I vaguely remembered his background, he actually taught

03:56:45.120 - 03:56:59.020

history before he got elected to Congress, and was– was something of an expert on China. And what I did not know that he shared with me is that he traveled to China. I think he must have been about six years old, with his

03:56:59.020 - 03:57:11.790

father in the 1930s. This is pre-Sino-Japan War. And he remembers coming to Beijing, he said this, he had a very vivid, he had a very vivid memory of what he saw in Beijing at the time.

03:57:11.790 - 03:57:24.050

And I asked him, I said, "What was it like?" he said, he said, "First of all, hardly any automobiles." He said, "Most people walked." He did see some bicycles, but it was mostly people walking.

03:57:25.000 - 03:57:39.170

Very, very, very rustic, very rustic, very, very backward looking. He said it was really old world, you know, he saw the Hutong structures everywhere.

03:57:40.090 - 03:57:49.630

That was China. That was Beijing. They had the Forbidden City there. No Tiananmen Square that, you know, that didn't come on until, you know, the Communists took over, you know, in 1950, you know...

03:57:49.800 - 03:58:00.280

and they got the Hutongs cleared. So there wasn't anything like that to gather, you know, and he said it was all very old. It's the skies were gray. This is coal fired

03:58:00.370 - 03:58:13.670

coal plants, burnt coal, was the principal fuel. He said the air was, you know, quite dirty, he remembers that. And he said, "It was very," he said, he said, "You know, now, you know, 1990s," he said, "You know, not terrific in

03:58:13.670 - 03:58:26.680

China. Still kind of underdeveloped." But he says, he said this, "today, China's very modern, compared to the ChinaI remember in the 1930s." And so, I sat the whole... we took these trips, you know, we... I sat next to them on the van.

03:58:27.360 - 03:58:40.080

He talked in the van, that's a great thing about traveling with a CoDel. Nobody is a big shot, you know, everybody's a member of the Congress, or the remote, you know, White House senior staff. You're sitting next. And so John Dingle sat in the back of the bus by himself.

03:58:40.780 - 03:58:50.730

I remember it was kind of a side seat and he had a seat next to him. So when I walked in, I remember getting, getting on the bus late, because all the members of Congress are already there. We were late to come in.

03:58:50.730 - 03:59:07.190

And I saw a seat next to him, empty, he was in the back. So I plopped myself right next to him, introduced myself and spent the next hour and a half hearing his story about what China was like. We were traveling from our hotel to, I think we were going to the

03:59:07.190 - 03:59:20.270

Great Wall that day. So it was kind of a trek to go, you know, outside the city to get to that. And so I just remember one of my most memorable collec- collection of that trip was actually learning about, about

03:59:20.670 - 03:59:33.720

modern China from the steps of, literally, from the words of John Dingell. To me that was a bonus of the trip. That's amazing. So, before we transition out of your career at the

03:59:33.720 - 03:59:42.700

Department of Energy, do you have any other insights you'd like to give? And I'd like for you to talk about what you're doing today. Okay. I know that we only have limited time.

03:59:43.180 - 03:59:59.970

The only other thing that, the major activity that I, I later got appointed to be the Head of the Fossil Energy Office. And was, was in charge of overseeing the, let's just say, the oil and gas research program, as well as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

04:00:00.380 - 04:00:13.490

But the two biggest activities during my watch were the plunge in oil prices during that time, that caused by an oversupply by OPEC, that was threatening a lot of stripper well, domestic stripper oil capacity.

04:00:14.650 - 04:00:29.580

And I headed what was then called a Stripper Well Taskforce to try to save US production, and worked very closely with us oil and gas producers on that. And the other thing, which I did not expect, which was not in my job description, was the allegations of

04:00:29.580 - 04:00:43.570

espionage against Dr. Wen Ho Lee, at a, at the Los Alamos National Lab. And that became a huge issue with the Asian American community, because they thought he was being unjustly prosecuted, both by the Department of Energy

04:00:43.620 - 04:00:59.750

and the Department of Justice. And we're seeing a revisitation of that phenomenon, even today, with scrutiny that the Asian American feels is being rac-, which is, which we believe has been a subject of racial profiling by the research community,

04:01:00.300 - 04:01:15.320

not just in national labs, but also in educational institutions, in universities. And I was a served on a Racial Profiling Task Force, to advise the Secretary of Energy, what steps he needed to take;

04:01:15.940 - 04:01:26.940

and was basically acting as a bridge between him and the Asian American community during that period; and spent a lot of time on that issue on behalf of him and the department.

04:01:27.470 - 04:01:39.940

And I could, that could be the subject of another video, I'm not suggesting it should be. But that while that, but the big takeaway from that, Anne, is that, when you take these types of jobs, you're not wedded to your

04:01:39.940 - 04:01:54.300

job description. Often you get detailed to do things that are well beyond your immediate job description. And in this instance, the Secretary of Energy told me, he needed me for that job. Because I did have an affinity with that

04:01:54.300 - 04:02:06.920

group. I may not have known all of the people personally, but I was aware of many members of their group and they knew who I was. And as a consequence, I acted as a go-between, between the Energy Secretary and

04:02:06.920 - 04:02:22.330

that community. And so that was a huge, I should say a huge part of my portfolio while I was at the Department of Energy. I think we have to have another interview just on that subject. Because in our Archive, we're starting a small

04:02:22.650 - 04:02:34.760

collection of interviews of people who are now dealing with all of these anti-Asian racist issues. And I think your experience with dealing, especially if you were in the DOE when this happened will be valuable.

04:02:34.990 - 04:02:45.550

We'll schedule another interview just with this, thank you. Okay. And so finally, what am I doing today? You want to just sort of close out this chapter. I have, I, for the

04:02:45.550 - 04:03:01.160

last 18 years, I've had my own consulting practice, it's a boutique consultancy. I have domestic as well as foreign clients. I advise on energy policy and regulatory policy, with a focus on the electric utility sector.

04:03:02.410 - 04:03:18.980

I have represented, I've done consulting work on behalf of US domestic, electric, and gas, utilities, predominantly electric– electric utilities, investor owned utilities; although I've

04:03:19.410 - 04:03:36.300

also done some work with public power entities. I– I view myself as, I do analytics, examine the regulatory landscape and advise these companies on issues of importance that would affect their investment strategy.

04:03:36.850 - 04:03:50.440

I also do work for private equity investors, and also do work for foreign–foreign investors and foreign companies that do business here in the United States. On both the electric and gas side.

04:03:51.200 - 04:04:01.700

I've done work with Chinese companies, but I also have done work with Korean and Japanese companies. And I've also done work on behalf of the Japanese government. I advise them on their

04:04:01.750 - 04:04:15.810

internal restructuring policies to restructure their gas and electric markets, and have built relationships between Japanese, the Japanese government and Japanese companies, with US officials, both at the federal and state level.

04:04:16.980 - 04:04:34.000

And so a lot of my work has an international focus primarily on East Asia. I also have been a contractor to the US Department of Energy, until the pandemic hit. For the last eight years, I had been organizing and managing

04:04:34.290 - 04:04:54.480

delegation trips, taking State Utility Commissioners to China and Japan, or the US Department of Energy, organized energy policy and technology mission to both China and Japan to better understand clean coal

04:04:54.480 - 04:05:10.270

technology, as well as other clean energy technologies that are being researched and being brought to market in both China and Japan. And so I've utilized my sets of contacts with my client base in

04:05:10.270 - 04:05:25.070

both those countries to be able to provide a platform to educate US State Energy regulators. And I have, I'm known within the state regulatory committee, as the go-to guy if you want to go to China and Japan, I tell

04:05:25.070 - 04:05:37.920

people, I am not a travel agent. That's not my purpose. I organize educational missions that would hopefully benefit them and have a better understanding of what's going on in that part of the world, and hopefully,

04:05:38.860 - 04:05:54.440

assist both sides in forming up providing a platform for common understanding and information exchange. And that has taken up a lot of my time, as well. And that's something that I view as an opportunity, and as a–

04:05:55.350 - 04:06:07.840

as a project that I was able to develop out of my experience at DOE in the 1990s. Having worked with US embassy personnel, and being very comfortable with that, with that group.

04:06:07.840 - 04:06:22.790

And to this day, I have many, many friends in the diplomatic community, as a consequence of that work dating back to 1990s. Well, this is fascinating, and we will be talking again for with Dr. Wen Ho Lee's interview.

04:06:23.160 - 04:06:36.110

We wanted to clarify a few small questions. What is the name of the neighborhood you grew up in, in, in Houston? Was it Sunnyside or...? No. It was called... I would say at that point, it was-it was called a,

04:06:37.090 - 04:06:48.330

probably South Park. South Park in Houston, Southeast Houston. I'd have to go back, but I think we called it South Park.

04:06:49.340 - 04:07:04.390

And... Do you remember the names of your elementary school or high school? Oh yes, I do. Very distinct. In fact, I belong to Facebook groups for each of those schools and see pictures being posted from those years I was there.

04:07:04.860 - 04:07:18.890

My elementary school was– was Louisa May Alcott elementary school, named after the author of Little Women. And my high school was Jesse H. Jones High School, who was a well

04:07:18.890 - 04:07:32.580

known benefactor of the City of Houston. As you know, there's Jones Hall, performing Hall, it's named after him. And I have an interesting story about that. Because when I was in college, when I was at University of Texas, I

04:07:32.580 - 04:07:45.970

was, I was at the, I was the Head of the Pre-Law Association as an undergrad in my senior year. And I remember that, one of the people who joined the Pre-law Association, back then the only way you could pay your dues is to

04:07:45.970 - 04:07:58.210

write a check that you know, there's no such thing as a credit card charge anything like that, that. No internet, you know, it's all, it's all paper. So I got handed a check by this very, very, very, very nice

04:07:58.670 - 04:08:07.530

student. You know, very, very friendly, affable student that I met. He, I think he was probably a sophomore. At the time, he wanted to join, I

04:08:07.530 - 04:08:21.390

took his check. And I looked at his check. And it said, "Jesse H. Jones, Jones the Second." So then I looked at I thought, "Oh my goodness, he is a descendant of like, my school." I didn't tell him,

04:08:21.390 - 04:08:35.340

I just said, I said, "Thank you very much, Jesse for your check." And he said, "No, no, no." He said, "Please call me Jay." "Okay, Jay." And so I think later, he actually did go to the University of Texas Law School.

04:08:35.340 - 04:08:45.430

I think he might have been in the law school a couple of years after me. I remember running into him in the hallways and saying hi. I think, I think since then he's become a very successful business person in Houston.

04:08:45.480 - 04:08:56.450

You may actually know him. Yeah, actually I am a friend of Jay and he's actually the nephew of Jesse Jones. Have... You could share that story with him. I don't think I've ever mentioned that to him.

04:08:57.900 - 04:09:08.540

I doubt if he would even remember that. Well, his father, John Jones was the Head of the Houston Chronicle. And they have... Yeah, they're, they're really nice people.

04:09:09.870 - 04:09:18.910

I think, Ann, I don't know if you're still on the call. Ann may have some other questions for you that I did not cover? Ann, do you have any questions for Mr.

04:09:19.230 - 04:09:35.720

Gee? Oh, this has been an amazing set of interviews. And we learned so much. And I know that our public will just absolutely be astounded by the

04:09:35.930 - 04:09:48.540

accomplishments, and the challenges you faced and overcome. So I think we really want to hear your views on especially the rise of anti-Asian violence right now, and the experience of Wen Ho Lee's case would be

04:09:48.980 - 04:10:02.840

illuminating. And it could be the one of the most important interviews we do for our new collection on the anti-Asian violence. I'd be happy to. I, I still remember much of what transpired at that time that I've been, that I can share it, I

04:10:02.860 - 04:10:16.670

also want to thank you for the opportunity to share these thoughts with you. I have shared some of my story in, in segments with people in the past, but I don't ever recall having had the opportunity to basically provide you with

04:10:16.670 - 04:10:30.360

an uninterrupted narrative like this over these last three interviews. This is the first time I've ever done this. I'm happy to do so. And I'm hopeful that years from now after I'm long gone, there'll be people who will

04:10:30.360 - 04:10:49.140

look, look at this and, and find this to be informative. And I hope that, you know, people will draw from my experience and, and learn from it and be able to accomplish great things. But truly, you're one of the pioneers and it's you know, we're, we are

04:10:49.140 - 04:11:00.300

going to be learning from you. I hope that your wife will agree to an interview. Let me talk with her. I didn't even ask, do you have any children? Do you have a...?

04:11:00.470 - 04:11:19.200

I have one daughter. We adopted, we adopted a daughter from Changsha, Changsha in '90, in 2003. Changsha, Hunan. They call her a spicy girl, for Hunan food.

04:11:22.730 - 04:11:31.900

Changsha is the hometown of Mao Zedong, right? Yes. I tell people this is appropriate. We have a little princess in our household.

04:11:31.900 - 04:11:39.830

So actually, she was like that when she was small. She's actually very mature now. And probably she's a very, we're very

04:11:39.900 - 04:11:53.640

fortunate. She's– she's bright. She's now 18, has turned out to be a, just a wonderful, a wonderful person. We're very fortunate. So I— but don't let her, don't let her know that I said that.

04:11:55.720 - 04:12:02.120

She's not gonna watch this video interview so that I'm fine. Eventually, she'll... I'm sure she will. Well, maybe years later.