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Today is April 29, 2021. My name is Ann Shi, I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive. I'm so honored to be documenting Renqian Yang's oral history today. Thank you so much, Renqian, for

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joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. To start, can you tell us when and where were you born? So I was born in Xiangtan city, Hunan province in China, southern—central and southern part of China.

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So, yeah, I was born in October 28, 1987. Can you share with us a little bit about your childhood memories and the household you grew up in? Yeah, it's actually, it-it's actually very, um,

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I—when I remember, as I remember when I was a child, I–I always think it is kind of connected with where–where we were living in the suburb area, so it's not very close to the city area.

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So it's always nice. I grew up in a house where my dad actually built himself. So it's kind of very, very nice in the countryside, and we have little gardens, so I think it's always just

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nice to be able to kind of participate in–in a lot of family activity. We do a lot of ping pong outdoor, and then badminton. So that's sort of, kind of, you know, it makes me think about is

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that–that—actually it was luxury, now that I thinking about the spaces that we had. Yeah, and then—also, I always have to walk back home, so that was very different, like about, like, twenty minutes, thirty minutes, I kind of remember myself walking

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back home by myself, so that's sort of like a memory. And, yeah, in terms of art, too, like I–I—before, before we renovate the house, actually my mom

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really just indulge me, so she had just let me play with drawings. I do remember I just use like ball pen, anything I had find, I would draw all around the house just like crazy. So yeah, I'm–I'm really you know that she never

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stopped me. Later, I know we're, because we're doing renovations, so she didn't even care, but–but that's a, sort of like a memory that I had when I was really early about, you know, drawing. Wow, it's so impressive and very hard to imagine nowadays, especially

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that you can, yeah, build a house by yourself. So did your father's kind of craftsmanship also influence how you would like to use your hand to–to make things? He–he–he is actually, he's actually in the architecture

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business, like con-, um, contractors, that you always have people working for him, and then—so–so sort of like that, that is–is the whole process. It–it's not like

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where–where people re-renovate or build a house from scratch? So I think he did, of course he had people helping him, but yeah, I–I do remember he definitely had a very good design mind, in mind, like what we, what the house

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needs to look like, and then the design needs to look like. So I always remember him just like working late at night and draw, draw, so that is, that is a sort of, like, my memory, I think.

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And what are some of the childhood games you used to play? We do a lot of, um, so my dad, he played chess, Chinese chess that... Chinese chess, I never be able to beat

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him. He's just so good. It's like he always thinks, like, five step ahead of me. So that I–I was felt, like, frustrated with it all. But is it hard game that I really wanted to learn. But I always with my mom, my mom, like, will–will

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play the, uh, like a different game, it's called the “Tiao Zi Qi”, . So you just like, it's very simple. So it's like a glass ball, and then you just move it from one triangle square to another one. So I remember

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playing that a lot with my family. And again, like, like ping pong, badminton, we do a lot of those activities. So yeah, that-that's sort of like the–the–the very simple game. It's not like we get to play video games.

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I remember they were never like, they don't, they don't want me to buy video games. They're really against it. Such a funny memory. And I'm curious, what, what kind of family history did your

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parents also share with you during your upbringing? And what kind of family values did they tried to instill with you during your upbringing? Oh, yeah, that's a great question.

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Yeah, I, 'cause they, I, they—my mom was a, she was a teacher before she had me, so she's always, she's a educator. And she always wanted me to become a teacher I guess, part of me is, like, fulfilling what she, what her–her, in her idea, like, what I needed to be doing.

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So I think she's happy about that. Um, yeah, she, um, she actually she, I think she's a very creative mom. So, a lot of times, I'll see she'll, she'll

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bring in creativity in life, even just with little things. And she likes to do things herself, so that always told me, like, be independent, don't rely on people, you just do it yourself and then be responsible. And yeah, in–in–in the

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traditional sense, I think she, she really values some–some of the traditional, traditional values that we–we emphasize a lot, like, be respectful, right? And then be a good kid in general.

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But I think one thing he, one thing I remember she will really pushes me to challenge myself. She encouraged me to do like competitions, public speech, speech, kind of, like, type–type of activity, and then she just encouraged me

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to engage, not just, not just, you know, be a good student, the traditional sense, but you, you do need to kind of, like, take leadership so like, be–be part of the bigger classrooms.

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And yeah, she's, she's really about that. And I–I think my dad again, very hardworking, you know, down to earth, very much about be able to really—again, humble, he's very humble guy,

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and then, but again, a very, have a lot, a lot of friends, that's, I'm always a-amazed how many people come to our household, on a, on a you know, every month probably will have a lot of people come in.

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Um, my mom always cook for like, ten people. So it just feels like my memory is just like big gathering, a lot of, like, friends. So that's sort of, like, how I felt like that, that definitely influenced me. I really enjoyed meeting people having a lot of

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friends around. So that's sort of always important. That's really warm and lovely to hear that. And how about your grandparents and the, like, the kind of Yang family last name.

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Like, have you heard any of the stories about your earlier generations that you would like to share? Um, yeah, a little bit. I think—because both of them growing up in big families. So my mom will have four

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siblings, my dad has–has two. And then, they are—the older generations, I think my grandparents, they all, they all a little bit, li-little bit far, but not too far.

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So I do have good memories of going to spend time with my grandparents in the countryside during holidays. So there, they will have farming going on right in front of the house. We're–we're right next to the river.

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So I have really good memories about rivers. Um, yeah, I'm more traditional. I think they, they will—I remember they'll punish me if I'm not doing something, if I'm not behaved,

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they're definitely not–not those type parents will be really talk to you about, you know—they–they have their own way of educating you. I think that's–that's what I remember. Yeah. And then, um, and my mom's side is a little

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bit more distant, because I–I guess again, we, my mom is the youngest kid, so, from–from—so I always remember having–having more cousins and my aunt and uncle's. But yeah, my–my grandpa passed away when I was

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young, so I already remember memories about maybe just, like, the traditional funerals, well those those were like the earliest memories I had when I was younger, when I was a kid, so, yeah. Great, thank you. And how about your name?

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Renqian, like, is it kind of metaphorical? Oh, gosh, yeah, it's–it's, it's a long story, because I actually changed my name. So is this sort of, like, family–family decision in a way to.

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And also I–I, um, my–my—so when I, when I, when I was born, my name is Yang, so the family name, family comes first: 楊思妮 . 思 means like missing or thinking; 妮 is like the, a girl.

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So sorta like, it–it–it it's an interesting name, but for some reason, we—first of all, someone–someone has the same name as me when I was at high, high school, middle school, middle school, probably. And then I think he, there were some sort of like,

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cheat-cheating, like, in an exam. So then this person got–got announced, like, oh, this person is, uh, you know, cheating. So everyone thought it was me. I was, like, no it's not me! And then I really hate my names, I was, like, oh no, I really don't like my

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name. And then that time, we were also, they were sort of, like, superstitious. Like, they had a, like, fortune teller come in, like, they were changing all our kids name in our family.

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So, oh, so we'll have better fortune. So um, a lot, a couple of my cousin's, they were like, no, no, no, no, no. But I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's good opportunity to change my

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name. So it's not as—but I thought it's really unique, because it's–it's–it's,人 , is very, sort of like, you don't really have a lot of names has this character in it. So it was, like, people, I–I like how universal that is.

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I–I always say, you know, my name, my–my name right now means, you know, human, and then people, and then倩 , sort of, like, in the ancient Chinese is a good word, like beautiful, like good.

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So it's like good humans, I think in general, I like that. I'll take that. That's beautiful. And can you share with us some of the, like, cu-, like the Chinese cuisine that you, back

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home in your hometown that, or it's like any special, like recipe that you would like to tell us about? Oh, wow, wow. How much time do you have?

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Well, yeah, again, Hunan Province. So it–it–it's known for its spicy food and then hot cuisines. It's just—yeah, I grew up, you know, eating hot peppers, I think.

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My mom cook-cooking is really great, so. We do, we do a lot of different dishes. But fish, I remember eating a lot of fresh fish, because we are around lakes and then my dad is

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very interested in fishing. So that's his to go activity whenever he had time. So we always have fresh, you know, fresh fish–fish boiled.

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So my mom's recipes, you always fry a little bit, until it's like this golden brown color on both sides. And then you add fresh garlic, fresh pepper, and there's always the–the key from a lot of the Hunan

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cooking is you do have to have fresh, fresh stuff, so. And then you just cook, add those in the hot water, and then you just boil–boil fish soup until it's becoming like this creamy white color.

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It's just, it's very good. Yeah. And then we–we also—now, she's, my ma still, they–they still live at the same house. They have big garden area, they grow all the vegetables.

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During, especially during pandemic, they were like, oh, we just, we didn't even need to go buy any vegetables, we're just, like, eat from our garden. Yeah, nice. So yeah. And then fresh, fresh green–green vegetables.

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And then always balanced cuisines. You always have to have a vegetable, some soup, and some meat, and then rice. So yeah, I think that–that in general, like very traditional, but a very,

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very important—I mean the–the dinner time or the lunch. So we always have to have family sitting in the dining table. It's not in the living room where the TV is, you can't really do that. I just have to be sitting in the dining table having conversations about

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how your day is. So I–I think that actually is a very important family time, even though it's just, just a simple like having meals together.

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That's what I miss the most, I think. Yeah, sounds delicious, and very mouthwatering. So it's—are your parents here in the US or in China?

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Um, yeah. So actually, yeah, none, no-none of my family members are here. So all of, everybody's in China, in Hunan. And I have a younger sister, she's, she's thirteen

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years younger than me. So she–she was born 2000's, and now–now she's, she's a, she's a junior in college. So it's, wow, it's really fast.

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So yeah, everyone still lives in–in where I grew up in China. So I always go visit them if I can, if I have time, like in the summer. So I'm also curious in

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your upbringing, besides the family values, did your parents bring you up with any spirituality? Mhm, um, yeah, I do think so. In a very small way, we are—she, she is, my mom is

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very, she's a Buddhist, and, so she really believes in the spiritual aspects of that. And also we do have a lot of worship for like ancestors. So we will do rituals in the family where we'll invite ancestor come back to have

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meals with us, sort of like they do this, like, ceremony, when, especially when my mom's side, when my grandparents are still–still there, we will usually go to their house, and then we'll–we'll–we'll really do this big

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event. And, you know, you–you–you burn things to–to the ancestor and then pray they will protect us. Usually big meals as well. And you just wait until

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they eat, and then you go eat. So sort of a interesting family ritual, I think we would—I still remember that. And then we were still doing that a little bit. But–but–but in general, I think they–they just, um, my mom really

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encouraged me to read a lot. I–I do remember reading a lot of different books growing up. So I was very interested in religions, and then in Daoism. I was really interested in Daoism.

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So all those, uh, I did, I do think there's a connection between all the different religions and their spiritual values, I feel like that–that–that sort of really helped–helped me especially, especially—I–I

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grew up also practice calligraphy, calligraphy and traditional Chinese paintings. I think that–that–that, when I'm interested in those, I feel there are traditional values kind of, kind of, like, already existing there.

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So yeah, I think in general, they, they just, they just tell me the importance of, I guess, there are things that are bigger than ourselves, just our existence. So I think in that sense, that's good.

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I'm not, like I can't say I'm 100% like Buddhism, but I feel like I do believe in the universe itself is already has this mystical power, I think, I think you can name in any form. It can be art, right?

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It can be just life in general. So I think, yeah. That's very inspiring. And following that, I'm curious, what was your earliest point of

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contact, or kind of your earliest inspiration with art? I mean, besides you mentioning your, you kind of painted your own house and your canvas? Yeah, I think that sort of is a—I don't

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know where it come from. Maybe it's just looking at my dad always, like, desperately drawing or do something. So that could be inspired memory that I had. And, earliest I think is

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definitely start drawing, and then she will send me to different–different interest class, like classes, like so one of them will be traditional Chinese painting. And then she always think it's important that you, you have a good

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handwriting. So and that–that's a very important thing. So then that–that bring, bring her to, okay, then you're going to practice calligraphy. So I hate it, I was like, I don't wanna do it, but–but it's–it's sort of like, again,

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building my daily ritual, that I have to do it, so. I–I do have some fun going, going to those classes. And then in high school, and then she started thinking, okay, maybe–maybe like, ar-artists, something that I

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interest-interesting, she can see that I actually draw every day. So she's pretty impressed, like, I–I will just draw comic books, and then I'll just–just draw it every day. And then I overheard she talking to this with her friend.

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She's like, oh, she's thinking, I don't know, that she's drawing every day. She told me no, 'cause I would be at home at home. Like, I'm not doing homework. I was just draw. So she definitely, you know, saw that, like, that's

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my interest. So she–she really encouraged me. So later–later, I actually get some official, like, training to–to take the art exam, to go to art school. So that was pretty, that was pretty fun for me.

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So I–I started going to study with a teacher that actually train—you had to do like traditional sketching, sketches, and then—so all the Western way of training you how to be an artist.

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I think that's the, I started from there. That's super fascinating. And so in school, what–what were you good at, good at? Like what subjects were

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your favorites? And was there any kind of very influential moments or defining moments that kind of led you to who you are today? Oh, yeah. Probably traveling back time, yeah.

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I think, yeah, it is definitely, um—so elementary school, I'm very good at everything. I think, I think I was those kids, I was like, 'cause we only have like two classes. So I was really interested in all subjects.

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And middle school, middle school, high school, I'm really good English, I'm really good at English. I guess I was really interest, like, Backstreet Boys and watching American drama influenced me. And then we have a small group of kids, we, like some of my friends

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were really interesting in learning English. And we have a wonderful English teacher. She will, she was like direct a play, like we will have to do a little play like English play, like so that really got–got us interested in the language side of

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it. And then Chinese, I was really good at Chi-, at Chinese. I do, I write like short novels, I really like writings. And yeah, those were the two that I

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really like. Well the other, the opposite is what I'm not good at, um, and—math I'm t-terrible, terrible. Oh my god. I'm terrible at math. And all the, all the ones that are like

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physics and chemistry, but I a-actually learn more chemistry now, because I'm in ceramics. And the—I'm really good at politics, so–so it's a subject right? So policies, but–but we

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do learn, like, philosophy, there is a very strong philosophy aspect of the politics side. So I, at one point I felt like the only time that I had like full score is in a politic exams, did well.

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So yeah politics is because I interested in philosophy, I think like Marxism in general is just like about how universal values and things like that. Yeah, defining moments is hard, I think.

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Probably, probably like, when I went, like, I remember I was telling, I was joining those like storytelling competition. So I will remember I will be on the, on the playground, I will, I will do

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a speech, like telling a story where they had the flag, where–where the flag is. So I would remember watching so many, so many students that I was like, oh, I was still nervous.

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So I–I remember like, oh, I–I did it, I–I felt like I achieved something. So that was a defining moment, I felt like in like, very younger age. And then, of–of course, I was doing a lot of art competitions.

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So those were, those were always good. So I felt like, definitely in the arts I, um, I felt like that's what I'm good at. That's like, I'm known for the art kid and then never go to school since, like,

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the third year, where everyone is still studying intensely for the, for the high, for the college entrance exam, I'm already–already, like, going to another city and then do my art training, so. So your parents have been very supportive in your

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artistic journey? I think so, yeah. Initially, they were like, what are you gonna do? And you want to be an art teacher, like locally, like—and then–then they–they–they see me keep pushing to the

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next step, and next step, and next step. So I–I think now they're, they're, yeah, they–they know what I'm actually doing. So I–I think they're support-supportive, and then my sister is actually in the graphic design

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field, so I felt like we're going to the arts somehow in the family. Very artistic family, that is impressing. And why did you choose ceramics for your first, un-undergrad?

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Oh, yeah. This, again, it's sort of interesting 'cause, um, in the beginning, I don't know what that is, I think most our students will, when we—I, initially I wanted to do design, again I–I wasn't, or painting, 'cause I really

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love paintings, 'cause that's our first training is to do a lot of sketching and–and do a lot of drawing, drawing from observation, you have models right in front of you and draw. So I did a l-lot of those trainings.

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And then I was still wanted to, you know, up my game, like be better and better and better. So ceramics was just like accident, again, is you–you have to choose, right, you have to choose your first wish.

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And then your second one, so my second one is ceramics, just because it-it-it's interesting, I thought, like, okay, I can, I can do something functional, right? I can make cups, and then, like, you know, bowls, like things that I can use, that'll be

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fun. So I—and then you have to obey the university's arrangement. So it is not your decision. So–so if you, they are just like, kind of, like,

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continuing with how many students they're hiring and then they, okay, then—so actually, I remember I was, when I got to Sichuan Fine Arts Institute, that's where my undergrad is, we have thirty some students, I think majority

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of, 90, 95% we were, most of them are, we assigned to this class, know what–what ceramic was. But then I–I–I really, four years got me really interested in it, because it's super complicated.

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And then, yeah, and then I–I–I tried to give up on ceramics, I'm not going to do this, too ridiculous. So, so, so, so hard to predict the result, I felt like I'm, I don't, I lose a lot of control when I'm creating the works.

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I don't really like that. And, but later, I really understand how the material really teaches me a lot. So I–I feel like I–I sort of like become more peaceful with the whole process.

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And then also, you know, just–just how com-complicated it–it can be, that I, that's really drawn, drawn me to like continuing practice ceramics, I guess? Yeah, that's interesting, 'cause since–since your earlier kind of experience, before undergrad, didn't have that

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much kind of sculptural experiences. Oh, no, yeah. Not at all, not at all. But that's the thing, they say once you, once your training started going to three-dimensional, it's really hard to kind of just go back to two-dimensional, and–and

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because you see the world in a three-dimensional way, and then, 'cause the object in front of you. There's that extra dimension is always interested in me, and then you can also do the fourth dimension, right?

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You can talk about time and the word. So it's–it's always kind of expanded I feel like, so. And–and–and then clay itself, it's, it's this sorta like a love hate relationship I felt like, if I just really love it, I feel like I'm not going to do it

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so long, it would be my hobby or something. So yeah, I think it's challenging enough so–so that it keeps me kind of wondering what's, w-what's the next step? What can I do in different formats?

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So... Could you share with us some of the memories about your undergrad at the Sichuan Academy of Art? Yeah, yeah. So, again, a very well known art school in China.

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And this is one of the, one of the most important ones also in the southwest China, 'cause in other regions of China, you, you have different art schools. But that area, it's just, Sichuan Fine Arts is just really

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really where it is. I think the vision is really interesting, when I was moved, when–when, uh, I went there, 2005, between 2005 and 2009.

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So they–they, we are the first class where we're going to move into this college town, there's nothing there. This is where the new Sichuan Fine Arts Institute is right now.

00:26:10.020 - 00:26:21.240

So the old town they had another one, a different area in Huang Juping. So then this is like in the Huxi, in a new area, so where you have to take a one hour, two hour bus to go to the new one. And

00:26:21.240 - 00:26:35.400

then, they will, they will actually—the–the idea was they're bringing farmers in this, at school, so they're actually having people leave in the, in campus where they will grow crops, like corn, like corns, and then, you know,

00:26:36.140 - 00:26:48.300

potatoes, so then you don't really need to draw from nature, you don't really need to go out elsewhere. You just, you can just be there, and then you'll see just beautiful nature. It's, the design is amazing, because how you can

00:26:48.600 - 00:27:00.700

really, it's in the mountain, they didn't even, they didn't even do something to it. Like, like the school across from–from us, I think they just flattened the whole area. 'Cause Chongqing is known for its mountain areas it's

00:27:00.770 - 00:27:16.090

really humid, really beautiful. So they really try to preserve what the local history has to offer, and then even include some of the villages, like, like the old houses, so–so–so even though it is a little mimic nature, in a, in a

00:27:16.090 - 00:27:30.940

sense, but they will, but I–I remember it's sort of a you're in a natural environment, they will have, like, warning don't go to the mountains like after 8PM or something. So it's–it's actually really, really like a utopian place I will

00:27:30.940 - 00:27:45.280

say for artists for art students, it's amazing. Yeah, and then memories, there are, there are a lot of good memories of course, we had a lot of friends of mine, we're still really, really good, close friends until now.

00:27:45.530 - 00:28:00.570

One of the memories also, it also early started my earlier work is the Sichuan, Sichuan, the big Sichuan earthquake actually, 2008, I think May 2008, the 12th. So it's like

00:28:00.570 - 00:28:13.050

2pm, I really remember, it-it's really, you know, we were all actually just in the classroom, and then just so everybody said, like, there-there's a big earthquake, we don't know what happened. So we had whole week, we

00:28:13.050 - 00:28:22.730

were just, like, crying. They–they–they told us don't–don't go back to the campus, so we were all living in the, in the playground, actually. So me and a couple of friends.

00:28:22.830 - 00:28:37.530

I remember I was just really in the building, and I saw like a lot of friends or they're taking naps, and then they just, like, wear their pajamas and, like, left the building. I–I remember like the building was shaking, I can see the building, like, shaking a lot.

00:28:37.530 - 00:28:50.640

And so I call my friends, and then, like, we were living in the same dorm. So we're gonna run downstairs, so even though we don't know what's going on. So, yeah, so those are really–really, like,

00:28:50.640 - 00:29:01.880

first disasters, I felt like I've experienced. And now the pandemic of course. So it's just sort of, sort of like m-makes me really thinking about work, and how–how can I, how can I capturing some of those emotions.

00:29:02.510 - 00:29:12.040

I was just so sad, I couldn't make work. So then I had, I had to make work while I'm watching news and then I cry. So I–I had those memories, and I'll make, like, little pieces

00:29:12.040 - 00:29:24.200

representing people's emotions before the earthquake, during the earthquake, and afterwards. Like I remember calling my mom, and then she was like, yeah, what ever happened, what about school? You know, I, we had like

00:29:24.290 - 00:29:33.510

disconnection, like the–the phone signals, she was worried about me but um, but then she also thinks you know it, you know, what can you do? Like, just–just do what everyone else is doing.

00:29:33.980 - 00:29:48.070

So we were trying to deal with this. So, yeah, and then we–we were just, like, really afraid of aftershocks after that. So that was definitely a moment that I felt like, what can I do, I can do nothing, but I can make work.

00:29:48.070 - 00:30:02.340

So I felt like that was the really strong connection with me and the work, and it also helped my emotions and the, my experience. I felt like those all kind of connected. Wow,

00:30:02.540 - 00:30:19.650

that must be very traumatic experience and I'm also, um, curious how far is Chongqing from Wenchuan, which is, like, the center of the earth-earthquake? Right it's, I think it's couple hours it's, uh, so it's Sichuan Fine Arts

00:30:19.650 - 00:30:33.070

Institute in Chongqing. And then, so Wenchuan, yeah, it's–it's close, it's in that region, we do have a lot of friends that are, you know, have families around. So you can feel it, but it's not as bad as where of course the

00:30:33.070 - 00:30:43.340

center of the earthquake. So we just, we just see building cracks, and then, and then we just heard a lot of, like, rumors about, like, people's parents.

00:30:43.340 - 00:30:55.090

So, so a lot of my friends, they were worry sick about their family. So I was, I was happy that my family was not, you know, that close. So, so that was, that was what it is.

00:30:55.330 - 00:31:14.020

Yeah. So what did you feel back then? Like, as you were talking about your emotions as an artist making work? And how does, like, trauma influence your work? Well, I, I think it's, is a, is a realization,

00:31:15.700 - 00:31:31.490

it's a realization 'cause before I–I am really interested in social commentary work, I felt like my work needs to do something. Again, that's a very, again, like a, when we were training at our school, we felt like we–we, our work is a criticism, sometimes, most of

00:31:31.490 - 00:31:44.000

time it's a weapon somehow. Um, but–but that moment is I realized, you know, it is important that I feel like, it's more important for me to make the work than make the comment.

00:31:44.000 - 00:31:56.060

I feel like I don't have a lot to say, I feel like I wanna just express that, express what I'm going through, you know, internally, like, and then connecting it with the, with what everyone else is going through.

00:31:56.060 - 00:32:11.400

So sort of like helping people can understand that we were actually just going through this together. In–in–in the past, I feel like when you're either social commentary reviews, so you're like critic, critic is also, so you're–you're looking at the world, also at people, or

00:32:11.400 - 00:32:24.150

also at a society in a very critical manner. So again, this is out of love, this is because you wanted to make changes, I think this has a lot to do with what, you know, artists right now

00:32:24.150 - 00:32:36.740

struggling with, it's just how do you, how do you do both? So I feel the–the realization for me is, first of all very thankful that I have this form that I can express myself.

00:32:37.040 - 00:32:46.460

So, and then also realize it's, it's helpless in a way, like I feel like it doesn't really change enough. Like, I feel like I always found wanting to really make changes, right?

00:32:46.460 - 00:32:54.230

I feel like I will have to do something else. And then—so it's also that very clear role about what is the artist? What is a activist?

00:32:54.280 - 00:33:07.620

And then this is again, what influenced me on, like, later works that I made, and I'm having conversations with people that are, that are creating similar in a similar work about do you feel it is—again, if you want it to be

00:33:07.720 - 00:33:23.580

doing social changes you will be doing, I always feel like the artists' role is–is not as important as maybe like an like hospital, like doctor or nurses, and they actually helping people, but–but like, same thing with the writers, I felt like there are other ways to

00:33:23.580 - 00:33:39.390

influence people in a different way. So that's again, you really realize the–the power of the work you're, you-you're doing for you, but then also, if collectively everyone is doing it, doing that, you're already having a social change,

00:33:39.620 - 00:33:47.670

even without having a very clear, like, slogan, we gotta do this. So I–I think is a very subtle way of changing. So that's how I see it.

00:33:50.230 - 00:34:03.560

Yeah, definitely. I felt like the aesthetics and the–the way that art connects to so much like emotions and spirituality. It's most healing, especially in–in times like that and as of now, too.

00:34:03.930 - 00:34:21.140

And I'm also curious, what–what are some of the mentors in your earlier career? Mhm, yeah, definitely–definitely my professors. Um, I, we, I remember we are—at Sichuan Fine Arts

00:34:21.260 - 00:34:35.700

Institute, we have different professors, they're from different backgrounds, some of them trained in–in England, some of them trained, like they, some of them are really interesting, again, the spiritual way of creating work and

00:34:35.700 - 00:34:46.830

influenced by Japanese cultural. So I–I–I definitely can see a lot of them, or—they–they had a different way of approaching teaching. I felt that influenced me as well.

00:34:47.090 - 00:35:03.960

So some of them are really good at sharing, sharing examples, or, like, giving us really great feedback on, I–I–I think in–in general, those are, those are important. And then when I came to Syracuse University, I studied with a couple

00:35:03.960 - 00:35:18.930

artists that are also important artists in our field and, um, Peter Beasecker, Margie Hughto, and Errol Willett. So they're, they're all really great artists in–in ceramics. Some of them are, like Margie, she's doing public art.

00:35:19.020 - 00:35:33.360

So she's doing, like, large artwork in the public, like New York subways, and then, and then my other mentors like Peter, they–they are all studio potters, and then and Errol, they're all working a lot on the potter's wheel.

00:35:33.360 - 00:35:45.840

But then they also kind of really challenging us to think very broadly about our work. And I do remember all the painters that I've studied with when I was a student, 'cause I was also very interested in

00:35:45.840 - 00:36:02.880

paintings. So I feel, yeah, a lot of people definitely I feel like without—like, I also see that they, they, they–they are, they really encourage you to discover, discover within what was already within you instead of like, like a

00:36:02.880 - 00:36:13.460

traditional masters will feel like a traditional teacher that I had in China, mostly will be like, you should do what I'm doing in a way, right. But, but, but I think they–they never want you to do that.

00:36:13.460 - 00:36:26.620

They want you to really continue looking for your own voices. And then, yeah, it really pushes you it really challenges you I think. That's all about, that's all my mentors, my teachers that they've been doing that to me, so. And I'm doing the same to my

00:36:26.620 - 00:36:38.260

students. And I, we–we, I just had a critique with a student today, she was complaining about another professor, right, like, ah, like, seems to always disagree with me, he was like, well, so I kind of said, yeah, that's what your

00:36:38.260 - 00:36:56.780

professor is supposed to do is challenging you. So to make you think differently, you know, so I, that I feel like I really influenced me, like as a, as a teacher and also as an artist. So while you were in Syracuse, what were some of the kind of

00:36:57.260 - 00:37:09.590

challenges that you have faced when you first moved to the US? Was it like your first time out of the country, an-and out of China? Yeah. It is.

00:37:10.620 - 00:37:24.510

After like, 24 hours, flying really in different airports. I mean, I'm landing in this places. I–I guess most people don't think this is representing US, 'cause Syracuse is its own, its own city.

00:37:24.510 - 00:37:37.250

It's very different. And then it's very cold, right, a Chinese student called snow cities, it's really, really cold. I'm from southern China, I mean Hunan Province super hot, you can see the huge kind

00:37:38.380 - 00:37:53.240

of changes, o-of course, I do spend some time in Beijing, like living Beijing and northern part of China. But this is again, this is like northern than– than– than , if you didn't think about in the geographic people in China it's just like,

00:37:54.030 - 00:38:07.630

really, really cold, so. Of course, weather is the first thing, I think, very hard, hard to, hard to get used to. And then also, food its–its definitely interesting, it's definitely train yourself to be a good chef yourself.

00:38:08.510 - 00:38:24.590

Instead of just having to eat food that you're not growing up with or not familiar with. So I think culturally, culturally it's very diverse. Because again, University, and then I do the early memories, it's all

00:38:24.590 - 00:38:36.290

like Chinese students, you–you are around a lot of Chinese student, but I will find—I have a roommate, actually, she's a pianist. So both of us we are in the arts, we're like so weird. We're going to church, people were asking us well, what was your, what's your

00:38:36.290 - 00:38:49.540

major? What do you do? And then we tell them, oh, I'm in ceramics and she's in, she's doing piano. It's like, who are, you guys, so weird. Most people that we met, you know, accounting, like, finance and then things are more like practical and things

00:38:49.540 - 00:39:03.590

are more like, gonna–gonna make you, you know, be, you know, successful in, in, in the society. I was like, I feel like it's very odd. But I—and I also, biggest thing for me is 'cause, uh, like Sichuan Fine Arts

00:39:03.590 - 00:39:13.750

Institute, and I also, I grow up, I feel like that four years of training, you know, I'm around, people around me that are artists or designers, I feel like everyone is design, everyone is very creative.

00:39:14.260 - 00:39:28.230

So I don't–don't need different–different than, than what I experienced as, uh, now you're in a uni-university that is very complex, that has people that are in different field, which–which I never had that experience that you-you're around people that are in–in

00:39:28.230 - 00:39:41.650

performance art, or in like, I do have a lot of friends was in accounting, actually really in psychology. So I–I–I feel like it-it's really broadened my view about a little bit more about like, what actual shou- should be as

00:39:41.700 - 00:39:56.220

you're engaging with different, different people. I feel like I'm very lucky that I grew up with very, like, serious art training, but then you're also in a narrow path that you don't really get to experience so much with like different type of viewpoints,

00:39:56.220 - 00:40:12.090

I guess. Um, yeah, and then in–in general it's–it's, again, overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly busy. You're in grad school. So, 'cause I was also a graduate assistant, so I do—my

00:40:12.090 - 00:40:26.080

second year I already start teaching by myself. I was like, seriously, I–I was really not ready. I feel, but–but somehow I felt like they all, like, my mentors that felt like they–they definitely had confidence, they said like, yea, we're not putting you in

00:40:26.080 - 00:40:38.840

this position if you, we don't know you can do it. So I just say, oh wow, okay. I guess so. So, yeah, it–it definitely you, not only you have to be performing, you have to make your own artwork, you have to take classes, you have

00:40:38.840 - 00:40:50.250

to help with the department. So I always feel like I, you know, I–I have to work super hard. And then that–that–that definitely for a time periods is–is–is, um , is a struggle.

00:40:50.250 - 00:41:05.840

So I feel like for everybody who go into a grad school, like, go through MFA program, which, which is what it is, 'cause this is the–the terminal degree for the arts. So you don't really go to—you can do a doctorate degree in Europe, but not in US. So that was the end of it.

00:41:05.840 - 00:41:18.470

So I-I'm–I'm happy I did it like a three year program instead of two years. So like that, really, I need that time to–to process everything. Yeah. And I'm also,

00:41:19.230 - 00:41:32.670

kind of bringing back my own memory with Fou Gallery, when I first visited, I was mesmerized by the dumpling ceramics that was made by you, right? Oh, no, that-that's actually not by me.

00:41:32.670 - 00:41:41.140

But I know, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, so Fan Xiaoyun actually made those. Yeah. No, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. But–but I was, yeah, it was,

00:41:41.190 - 00:41:56.440

again, right about ceramics, and then–then how can clay as object become something else? So that was cool. What, when did you, when did you visit there? Oh, first, I think 2016, I think when

00:41:56.480 - 00:42:11.550

Fou Gallery is relatively new and still growing. Right, right. That was, yeah, that was a while ago, that was—when sh-she had a different location, Echo had a different location. I remember visiting them a really long time ago.

00:42:11.550 - 00:42:25.320

Yeah, that was... Yeah when, yeah when she's talking about, like, making your own food, that was, bringing... Oh, yeah, and, uh, speaking of your teaching did, did you enjoy teaching?

00:42:25.320 - 00:42:41.590

And did you, like, did teaching also help form some of your own inspirations? Yeah, I think definitely, you know, in a sense, I feel it's, I, it's a—I–I enjoying teaching, of course, but then

00:42:41.590 - 00:42:53.660

dilemma is it take so much of your time that you have to sort of cut yourself in half, sometimes two, two-thirds, in the beginning of your career, you're–you're gonna have to be just a devoted teacher. Yeah, I–I sometimes jealous

00:42:53.660 - 00:43:03.850

my student have all this time to make work. And I was like, oh, why don't you try harder? And then go that and then—so I–I do enjoy teaching, of course, because it's that conversation, it's–it's you, y-you know when you

00:43:03.980 - 00:43:16.590

inspire someone, you can feel that. If you even, even inspire a group of people, you can feel the air, a little change, a little bit. Maybe they don't feel like that, but you'll feel it, so you feel like it's, it's such–such a great teaching

00:43:16.590 - 00:43:30.520

moment, that's, I think teachers will say. And then in general, it just keeps me, I guess it keeps–keeps me kind of, like, go back to, go back to what I learned. And then like, double check, and so I–I do like that as well.

00:43:30.520 - 00:43:43.880

Like, it really keeps me kind of connected with my material as much as possible, 'cause you always have to think about, especially I still teaching intro classes, not just like upper level students, I am still introduce this media to

00:43:44.110 - 00:43:57.450

students, I feel like they–they, they can feel my enthusiastic about the material, then they were really influenced by that, I hope. So yeah, I–I–I, of course, I do enjoy that aspect, that, there are

00:43:57.560 - 00:44:08.410

other aspects about teaching, you're not going to enjoy, I think this is the same with the old works, right? You're gonna have to do paperwork, you're gonna have to do–do grading, and then you have to have a lot of, you know, meetings and committees

00:44:08.410 - 00:44:19.090

stuff. But it, but it come-comes with it. I felt like, again, I've been trying to balance my–my art career, like my, finding–finding time to make my own work and the teaching.

00:44:19.320 - 00:44:31.190

So I'm not necessarily seeing as competition like, either do this or that, or try to kind of bring a little bit more, especially this semester, I've been starting, doing a little bit more about bringing that to the classroom right?

00:44:31.190 - 00:44:46.250

I–I will show my students my expressions, and then talk to them a little bit about what I do or share my talk with them. So I can see that it's help building that kind of, like, a gap. Sometimes they don't, they don't see you in other characters, they see you as teachers in

00:44:46.250 - 00:45:00.120

a classroom. That's, that's what they think you do. So it's kind of interesting to them, oh yeah, you're doing something else. Cool, great. So. That sounds really fun, I-I'm sure your class is, is one of the most engaging

00:45:00.200 - 00:45:15.330

one. And also, yeah, curious, since you're, you're teaching ceramics, but also, you–you call yourself a ceramics artist, but I do see a lot of your earlier works, especially, is very much multimedia.

00:45:16.920 - 00:45:30.090

It's like ceramics and thread, and, and yeah, and also paintings. So I'm–I'm curious, who are some of your influences? Like some of the artists that might have inspired you?

00:45:30.200 - 00:45:48.870

And also, how did you kind of engage with different media and your choice? Oh, great question. Yeah, I, and–and thank you for, you know, seeing that, that changes through the, through the pieces, too. So I–I've, I generally, like,

00:45:49.190 - 00:46:07.370

accept that I'm ceramic artist, but I'm, I feel like it's not a, it's not how I, how, like, it's not very important. 'Cause I'm teaching ceramics, and then I can just, I can just in, in–in an artist also is this like a title in a way that–that–that seems like it has so much

00:46:07.370 - 00:46:16.850

different meaning nowadays. It's not like traditional sense that you're, you're a master of something, you are an artist, but now I feel like it's, it's really opened up the meaning of it, too.

00:46:17.240 - 00:46:29.580

So what I really like is, I feel like I'm more define myself as a maker, that I create things, I do stuff, I create stuff. So, and then not necessary any media, 'cause I'm, like the earlier memory

00:46:29.580 - 00:46:44.820

that I had, of course, is in training, as well as in paintings in drawing. So I feel that is always a core, and then I feel very safe go back to those, and then materials—and then coming to ceramics, it's, I feel like I'm always continuing learning, and then learning and learning.

00:46:45.650 - 00:47:00.620

And because it's such a complex material, like I said before, and not just, it's not just the expressive side, there is a very strong technical side about it, and the scientific like experimenting, sort of like data, and tho-those are important as well.

00:47:00.620 - 00:47:13.290

So, and then, and then there are also su-such a diverse like possibilities, you can do sculptures, you can do functional pieces, you can do wall pieces, so, so I–I do really enjoy that part.

00:47:13.470 - 00:47:26.120

That's where am I spending the most of time is–is–is with clay. But when, when I have opportunity to do other materials, of course, I will, I'm–I'm always very curious about different media, so.

00:47:26.590 - 00:47:43.530

The reason why I came to US is because I can explore, I felt like—well in–in China it's not like y-you can't, but it's more limited, I feel, in the way if you are in this field, you have your ceramic grad student, I guess you can, you can probably do other stuff that much.

00:47:44.160 - 00:47:54.970

So I feel that there are diversity that I can bring in, like I can, 'cause I do really love painting. And I don't feel like I need a degree to do it. So even though I

00:47:54.970 - 00:48:10.130

did a lot of classes and trainings, and, and, uh, thread—I felt like i-in a way is we are thinking about clay as a way to express, express ourselves. So it's not limited by the traditional like, by the history, where we

00:48:10.180 - 00:48:25.090

were in China, we definitely learn more about like the history of it, right, like the different dynasty, and then the different, the different way of firing and, and different aesthetics. So tho-those are, those are also very influential types of work

00:48:25.130 - 00:48:39.130

that you feel like you have to somehow you know, respect that. But, but when you actually can get out from–from a culture where it is defined what ceramic is, I think the possibilities opens up. So tha-that's, that's why I feel like

00:48:39.130 - 00:48:54.020

it's interesting actually to bring in other materials with clay, like, like, I've collaborate with people doing video art or in films, so I feel like they are languages actually can also add it to my languages and we can create some mo-,

00:48:54.050 - 00:49:08.870

something more unique. So that's what I'm trying to do, as well as just continuing to–to–to bring in different materials. Like if you think about you using you, you're eating rice for the rest of your life, right, like, and then

00:49:08.870 - 00:49:21.300

what about like adding some other–other–other types of rice in there too, like, it could be fun, right? So–so I just think, you know, it give-gives you, gives, keep me interested in it, and then keeps and also

00:49:21.300 - 00:49:30.820

keeps–keeps the language more diverse, you know? That's, that's why I feel like in–in sculpture, all right. So you'll never have the questioning, like why clay, why do you choose this material in your work?

00:49:31.170 - 00:49:41.370

So definitely the–the feel, like, if I'm in the ceramics, I feel like I don't have to do the justification. I'm just, I'm clay, I'm doing clay, so. So I think that's an interesting kind of, like,

00:49:42.530 - 00:49:54.800

notion of thinking about, what–what my material actually is, like, to the, to the basics, so. And then same thing with other materials, like I was using the thread because it's such like a invisible, invisible material.

00:49:54.840 - 00:50:05.860

It is always there, but it's not there. And it's sort of like kind of like representing social pressure, like old structures or like, the traditional values that feel like those things are that are still there, they're not

00:50:05.860 - 00:50:21.390

there. So there are symbolism in if I, if you wanted to connect it with them. So yeah, I–I think is just, in general a very interesting way of exploring like other possibilities instead of like trapped by your own past, and then

00:50:21.390 - 00:50:36.630

your own experience. Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I-I'm sure will be definitely really intriguing to see how you experiment and explore materials in the future as well.

00:50:37.120 - 00:50:50.100

And... Interesting, that too is, yeah, it's–it's not easy. But I think I'm trying, and then, yeah, if there are opportunities that I can be–be working with artists in different field, I feel, I feel that will be really beneficial to me as well, so.

00:50:51.800 - 00:51:07.760

Thank you. And, like, I–I read about that you're really interested in binaries, not just in like, the material itself, but colors and the concepts of, like, concepts of contradiction and di-dichotomies.

00:51:08.300 - 00:51:23.750

And you also mentioned that you're very, you-you read, and you studied a lot of politics in earl-early in your, in your school–school years. So, I'm curious about how you find and how you navigate

00:51:24.110 - 00:51:40.300

contradictions, and how you connect by, like, kind of getting ideas out into your work. And, yeah. But yeah, again, very interesting, because—so actually my thesis is about this.

00:51:40.300 - 00:51:52.640

So that's why like, I felt like I–I talk a lot about that dichotomy and then, and then things that are oppositions, 'cause in–in the beginning I already started realizing that I'm very contradicting person myself.

00:51:53.880 - 00:52:00.910

You're–you're never just like one side, you always have different sides, right? This is probably true for everybody. You always, if you–you, 'cause always

00:52:00.910 - 00:52:13.450

there's two sides. So I–I think in the beginning, when I, when I started to learn English and how–how the whole culture I feel is very black and white, you either this side or that side, you have to take sides. So, but it is the one

00:52:13.450 - 00:52:26.890

difference between that with the traditional I felt Chinese value is there is, there is a gray area, like there is a, there is a neutral–neutral point, there is a kind of like point of view will bring in the difference together, like unify it.

00:52:27.190 - 00:52:42.560

So that's actually, so–so fundamentally, I feel like that's the essence of like, the Daoism idea, right about, about like binaries. So I—and–and then when I think about this, this is I feel like is a universal law, for me, at least like a my

00:52:42.660 - 00:52:53.570

life experience, or anything that I think of I don't, I can't think of something like an extreme, there–there is always one point of view, then there are going to be the opposite point of view. So it-it's true.

00:52:53.570 - 00:53:05.820

So if I feel like if I'm reminding, I keep reminding my-myself not going to want extremes. So if I think about one way, so what about the other way? So I can still make evidence, it's sort of like a big debate, right?

00:53:05.820 - 00:53:17.590

You always have this big, big debate going on. So, and how can you, how can you unify the different viewpoints, and then kind of, like, come–come to a conclusion where it will, it will

00:53:18.510 - 00:53:30.220

sort of like unify both? So I feel like that balance is always there. It's just about how–how–how are you finding that balance. So one of the things I realized in–in grad school is,

00:53:31.080 - 00:53:43.790

especially that are my mentor, my–my friends that are in grad school, they were really pushing me to take sides. They–they want you to, they want you to either do this or do that, like so, so—but I wanted to say, you know, I'm–I'm doing both.

00:53:44.150 - 00:53:54.120

So I have work that I will, I will it's about most, it's about tragedy; it's also about comedy. It is both, like, happy, it's both sad. So I feel it's those moments in

00:53:54.120 - 00:54:04.500

between is what, is what's beautiful. It's just if you think about somebody cry, right, but then sometimes it's–it's because she's, he or she is very happy. So that could happen as well.

00:54:04.950 - 00:54:19.900

So I–I always feel like everything, when it comes to a point where you're thinking deeply about this, and then you will always see both viewpoints. And then you realize they are the same viewpoint at some, at some point, 'cause, and

00:54:19.900 - 00:54:31.130

then if you find the core of it, you'll find it is actually be able to unify both. So it is sort of like it's big, I feel is a power actually, it's a power that you can actually equalize everything.

00:54:31.760 - 00:54:44.150

Maybe that's art. So that definitely influenced my work. I–I can see myself in, specifically, in a piece of work that I been working on, I will feel like I've been always going to the two extremes.

00:54:44.150 - 00:54:57.130

It will be complete chaos, and then I need complete order. And then, and then chaos again, and then order, so it's sort of like how, how do you play with this game, and how do you find a happy place where you can have both in

00:54:57.130 - 00:55:08.300

the same sense, and then they are also balancing each other out. There are also contradicting each other. One could be overpower the other one, but then the other one will always be there. So I feel like it's a necessary, I feel

00:55:08.300 - 00:55:20.140

like it's a pair, so this is the thing—and you can't really just look at things from one angle, I feel like you definitely have to embrace the opposite side. And then also thinking about, think about it as a whole.

00:55:20.920 - 00:55:35.000

So that definitely influenced all my decision making I find, whether I like it or not, somehow, if I, for some point, at some time in my life, I will maybe go towards it one way or the other. And then that-that's definitely not

00:55:35.000 - 00:55:47.940

something that I invented, at all. It's definitely related to a lot of different artists, and also a lot of different philosophy, and then like, with, like, the drums, like the like, they talks about how, yeah—or in a very fancy way,

00:55:48.050 - 00:55:57.010

or in a very ambiguous way, right? I find it impossible to translate in English. But–but there–there are, there are things that I can't, cannot be sad, sad, in a way.

00:55:57.350 - 00:56:09.440

I feel that those are, those where our truth are so. So I really embrace that. And then I—my struggle is how do you actually express something that cannot be expressed in a word, and then, and then I accept that, you know, it's okay.

00:56:09.950 - 00:56:26.240

It's okay not to be completely expressing it. As long as it's, as long as you know it's there, waiting for people to discover. I think that's good enough, in a sense. And then artist, I feel there are, of course, a lot of

00:56:26.240 - 00:56:37.480

different artists that I enjoy. And then one of the artists that I remember he's from—William Kentridge is his name, William Kentridge, so very, very great artist.

00:56:37.930 - 00:56:49.900

Um, so I think he talks about in one of the interviews, he talked about how—'cause in the beginning, I was struggling about, like, cultural, and then how do I, like they will ask me, what, who's your audience?

00:56:50.010 - 00:56:56.840

And then I will think about, okay, who is my audience? Do I talk, make work for Chinese audience? Do I make work for, for US audience?

00:56:56.840 - 00:57:07.880

Is there a difference? So–so, you know, there's just like, always that question about, about the audience. And then, and I also feel like I have to always tell my story before I tell my work, my struggle is, my

00:57:07.880 - 00:57:16.160

story is better than my work. How is that gonna make sense, right? I want the work to speak for itself. Of course, I'm part of it.

00:57:16.390 - 00:57:28.710

So I think he had a really great comment about, I remember, it's probably one of the Art21, like, interview, maybe he did. It's about how, one's cultural—I don't, I don't remember specifics, but it's

00:57:28.710 - 00:57:44.240

pretty much about like, if–if you think about your culture as part of you, not like something, it will always be there. Your culture, your, uh, it's not just about like referencing it, it's just about, it's about how it naturally will float in–in the

00:57:44.240 - 00:57:54.480

work. So how do you, how do you let it be, in the way. I feel that's how I, that's how I perceive it, so. There are a lot of, few other artists, but, and,

00:57:58.020 - 00:58:15.060

but I feel like my mentor is really probably playing–playing a bigger role when I, when I was thinking about it. And I, of course, I do enjoy painters that I do love a lot of painters, like Matisse, I

00:58:15.090 - 00:58:28.460

like colors, I really love colors, mhm. And Mark Rothko, I really love his work as well, because how he really talks about, he, it's e-emotions influence the work, and then he want people to cry in front of his work.

00:58:28.460 - 00:58:37.830

So I find that absolutely powerful. For, from–from, yeah, from a point of view where, like, an–an artist, I feel like that's the ultimate goal, like you want work to be

00:58:37.830 - 00:58:54.200

influential. So I can definitely see that in his, in his work. Yeah, thank you for sharing the–the inspirations. And especially revealing the philosophical side of that

00:58:54.200 - 00:59:12.670

conversation, the "either or," which I felt like in the past year, in the rise of the racial justice conversations and kind of election year, and the amount of bigotry we've been seeing in–in the country we live in, even as diasporic

00:59:14.230 - 00:59:29.600

population. So, I'm curious, what are some of the experiences you've had during the pandemic, and how have you been coping with it? Right, right. Yeah, I think definitely, it's been, it's–it's been, seems

00:59:29.600 - 00:59:43.750

like a huge part of our—I, there are, there are points I feel like in 20-, 2020, I feel like, I just want to erase this whole year it should not existed. I mean, in the, in the main history, or somehow, there's just too much going

00:59:44.250 - 00:59:53.130

on? Yeah, I–I definitely think, it's definitely challenging. From like, isolation, right? I feel like there are so much time that you have to sort of

00:59:54.240 - 01:00:07.990

contemplating and thinking about it and then there's so much fear as well, and in—I also find this dilemma, like where I feel like safe and then at home, and then I can make work. But in the, in the, in the other way, like if you

01:00:07.990 - 01:00:19.110

thinking about what are the chaotic going all around me in the world, you feel like you–you—I've never interested in so much in the news; now I–I feel like I have to watch the news, I have to watch news every day, and then see what happens.

01:00:19.110 - 01:00:32.180

And you just go into this, like, huge anxiety, and then this huge emotions. So I feel like the–the work that I created during–during this time definitely helped me to cope with that. And then also, I can see

01:00:32.180 - 01:00:45.080

that–that my emotions, and then my, my experience kind of like reflected on the, on the works itself as well. So I was talking about how, how, like, the subtle emotions, and we're trying to identify, like the things that I, that I

01:00:45.190 - 01:00:58.460

experienced, like given names, right. So to kind of be able to really recognize those emotions. Yeah, I–I think it's definitely hard. The hard part is, as a, as a educator, I feel like I have to—so

01:00:59.890 - 01:01:09.250

teaching is still a huge part, like I–I still have to teach, even though we are, we're teaching in different modality. There are a time period, I was teaching completely online.

01:01:09.250 - 01:01:21.390

That's very hard in the material that I'm working with. I get, I like, I already feel like challenged. And then not, not to mention students, and then they also have so much emotional problems, a lot of

01:01:21.390 - 01:01:36.120

them had, has had, they had family problems, they have to, you know, learn in a envi-environment where all their family is there. So it's–it's a, I feel like I definitely feel my student. I feel like, like, I feel like at some point, I'm

01:01:36.120 - 01:01:48.510

not just a teacher, I feel like I also have to help them emotionally and then you know, tell them it's gonna be okay, so that really pushes me to be like a stronger character. I feel like I–I don't have that much time, you really, you

01:01:48.510 - 01:02:02.870

really, you know, ugh. Of–of course there are like fears I had like you, we'll hear about like, oh, yeah, there are hate crimes. And then, and I can see like we have student actually, you know, also an Asian American student,

01:02:03.310 - 01:02:12.830

making pieces that are about what they're experiencing. We have students, and we actually have a lot of student actually live in New York City, so pandemic that would be in the city, so that you can just hear the siren

01:02:12.830 - 01:02:24.740

when–when we are in class. So it was just, it's just such a different world I feel. So, it's definitely difficult for everybody, and then, and then how–how do you, how do I help them cope with it,

01:02:24.740 - 01:02:39.370

even just helping with one person, I feel like that's already, that's already, like, helped me as well, I feel like. And, and I-I've been also doing a lot of conferences, and there are a lot of artists making work about social justice,

01:02:39.370 - 01:02:51.170

about, about that. I feel like, but in general, I feel like this is such a, this is something like we experience so much that you don't really just all of the sudden, during this time, you make work about it.

01:02:51.170 - 01:03:03.050

So I–I don't want to shift my, my, my art theme because of what happened. All of a sudden, I am obligated to, like, respond to what happened. I feel like it naturally will, will influence the work.

01:03:03.820 - 01:03:16.280

I did use the, you know, a lot of newspaper, I–I had Times, I had the magazine and cut all those like comments. And then, I feel like all those just like surrounded by me. So then I start to use them in artwork, and I cover them up.

01:03:16.410 - 01:03:28.480

And it's just like, in a way really like—so you'll see the background of the pieces actually have all those newspaper as a background, almost, so. But I really think, you

01:03:28.480 - 01:03:40.230

know, it's–it's what, well, I always feel like you, when you ask people like how are you doing? Right? I–I feel like, like sometimes I know it's just a guy saying hi. But I always feel like I need to tell you how I feel.

01:03:42.230 - 01:03:58.750

But–but there are times I feel like I can, like I feel like I, I–I think that's probably what was true for everybody. Yeah, so in a sense, I think it's, it's important for–for–for us to really remember

01:04:00.780 - 01:04:11.100

this time I think. So i-it one thing very interesting about ceramics is you, you really fail so much, 'cause every time you fire something, things can

01:04:11.100 - 01:04:23.580

go wrong, things can crack and explode in the kiln. Even if you've finally made it through the kiln, like the–the moment you put some colors on, and then after fire, it can be running, I guess things can be completely different.

01:04:23.580 - 01:04:35.000

So I really had a really high, like, respect for failure, or for things not going the right way. So I feel like that's, like I embrace that. I feel like that's part of it.

01:04:35.360 - 01:04:48.280

So in a, in a sense I feel like this is somehow like as a, as a, as a world I feel like that's what we are going through. It's just like, this is, because things doesn't have, this–this things, something's wrong, something's not working, that's why all–all of this happened.

01:04:48.280 - 01:04:59.840

So I think it's more important to see how, what do we learn from this experience? What–what are we going to take from this experience, and then move on, and then thinking–thinking about it, not forgetting about it, but thinking about

01:04:59.840 - 01:05:13.080

what–what can we, what can we learn? So that was really what I was k-kind of, kind of try to keep that in mind, and then really reflect. I feel in a, in a lot of ways, not just your personal history, like your own life, but

01:05:13.080 - 01:05:27.860

also, like, how it all related to the world. So, yeah, I think that's how, that's how I feel. Like it really makes you really aware of, aware, aware of the–the world around you so much that you feel you're really tiny, like you're

01:05:27.860 - 01:05:39.740

like part, like a very—it is very fragile, like in–in–in the, all the work that I'm making, I–I feel like it–it becomes fragiler and fragiler. So it's just how, I feel like how life is, you know, too.

01:05:42.420 - 01:05:56.850

Yeah, and it's also really fascinating to hear that you felt so much, and been kind of interjecting that into your work. And I will also like to, since we–we were talking about the earthquake in 2008, that you felt that you were

01:05:56.930 - 01:06:10.090

also creating works, and the earthquake was probably something that's really kind of overwhelming, and you're in the body of this earthquake, whereas the pandemic, something is invisible, but the fear and–and the anxiety is also

01:06:10.090 - 01:06:24.590

in the, in the air. And I'm curious how the two different, like, kind of traumas kind of influenced the work that you've been doing? And how–how–how would you, yourself compared the two

01:06:24.590 - 01:06:35.270

bodies of work that you created during the two events? Well, yeah, I think is, is actually makes me m-more related to the work that I made before, more so than ever.

01:06:35.570 - 01:06:48.220

I feel like I started to look at the work again, and then re-, kind of find the connections. The language is, stays the same really, is, the l-language was not changing. So when I think about, I feel like a circle, I feel like it's

01:06:48.250 - 01:07:01.050

somehow–somehow all, like, connected in a way. 'Cause in the beginning, I was very literal, especially into how, to like a, when I start making the work, I started with drawings. I was like, okay, so–so let's talk about sad, like,

01:07:01.050 - 01:07:14.780

how many different ways that I can talk about sadness, like, so–so do I do a figure, like, in a sad position, so that I try that as–as–as well, I do that. And then, so then later, I felt like the drawing, like, if you, if I want you to draw

01:07:14.780 - 01:07:28.450

right now, or if I want everybody to draw, what do you, like, sad as a feeling? How do you express it? So I think we all are just gonna have, like, scribbles, like lines. So i-if you actually have everybody draw it, it's actually

01:07:28.450 - 01:07:41.780

going to have some similarities, it's–it's going to be very abstract, it's not going to have a very concrete form. So I really embrace that, like, so the language in the beginning, I was really study the emotions. And then I was using

01:07:42.700 - 01:07:54.970

very general categories, you know, in–in the beginning, like when I thinking about, you-you-you're happy, you're happy. So like, you're smiling, you have like positive forms, or bright colors, or warm colors.

01:07:55.180 - 01:08:10.940

If you're sad, it's gonna be the opposite. But the–the pandemic, like especially this time, I really feel, you can't really just simply using languages or like categories, like sad, sad, or like, happy, or, like,

01:08:11.240 - 01:08:24.680

those–those are too general, those are too bold, like, they're too vague, they don't express anything at some point. So it's just that how–how languages, all languages not evolved enough to really express that thought or emotions.

01:08:25.510 - 01:08:41.440

You can be sitting at your home all day, and feeling completely safe doing nothing, but watch the news all day, news, and feel so sad. And that sadness is different than when you, when you lose a family member, when you really are, you know, witness something

01:08:41.440 - 01:08:51.100

tragic, but it's, it's a sadness I feel like is–is very different. You can feel connected emotionally with everybody else going through the same thing, but you also feel incredibly disconnected.

01:08:52.300 - 01:09:02.840

'Cause you-you're actually not face to face in front of that, right, 'cause we are all behind screens. So I think that's, that's very different. So it's very subtle, so I really think the

01:09:02.840 - 01:09:19.810

work, this time, kind of going to a little bit more subtle changes, and then also trying to really look into the, like, the things that cannot be written, or things cannot be expressed, especially emotion that cannot be named, that was

01:09:19.810 - 01:09:30.510

one of the thing as well, 'cause I was starting using material that also cannot be named like there are material that I find in the studio that I supposed to get rid of. I was like okay, I'm gonna use that I don't know what that is.

01:09:30.760 - 01:09:44.140

So that was also kind of part of it, I feel like it bring-brings that to the work as well. And I'm trying to make–make things that cannot be defined as well like, like in the past, I feel like they–they represent something, they represent something.

01:09:44.490 - 01:09:59.600

I had, I, I been having a habit of adding a lot of symbolism in the work. So I'm trying to do less of that, and then just really embrace the material, and what, how the material is speaking to me, and then also how my emotions speaking to me, so–so I feel like, yeah,

01:09:59.640 - 01:10:12.150

that–that was part of it. But again, really, you–you really cannot compare experience in a way because of how your age, right, your–your environment, and it's all gonna be different.

01:10:12.150 - 01:10:28.640

But in the end, they're all going to be part of you, I feel, so. And–and then I think the Sichuan earthquake definitely is ve-very emotional for me, because, again, I was very young, I was feel like, you've never seen so much death in a way like that, that it's

01:10:28.640 - 01:10:42.320

not even, it's not that close. You also just in watching news, but this time, it's, I feel like y-you, or you're also kind of in the middle of it. And then you have a lot of fear, because there's, l-like we talked about, it's

01:10:42.400 - 01:10:56.070

everywhere. It's not, you-you're going to be exposed to it. So I feel like that, that's something that I think everyone is–is–is going through right now, it's not ending as well, I feel like that-that's always gonna be here.

01:10:56.520 - 01:11:09.360

But I've been teaching in person and online for a, for a while now–now. So I feel like I'm trying to really deal with it better now than–than before. And then I feel like people around me as well. There's so much fear.

01:11:10.730 - 01:11:22.520

There are a lot of loss, I feel, so it's–it's still sort of like a big, big time that I feel like we all need a little bit more like healing time, definitely longer. Um, yeah.

01:11:24.370 - 01:11:38.570

Yeah, it's hard to imagine how life will re-begin after all this ends. And next, also, I really want to touch on how to kind of position you as an artist in a diaspora.

01:11:38.820 - 01:11:50.410

So coming from China and kind of being a-an Asian American, in–in the US right now, and as an artist, do you think it's okay to be called an Asian, Asian American artists as an–an artist, kind of as many of the, I guess many of us kind of put that

01:11:50.410 - 01:12:06.850

prefix in front of artists' names? Yeah, of course, I think that's a, again, this is about labeling. In a way, so in a way, like I said, in the beginning, how artists as a terms really expanded, right,

01:12:07.530 - 01:12:21.980

but I feel like I am Asian, I am an artist, I am a woman. So like, you–you can't, you can definitely kind of keep naming, naming. I am a ceramic artist. I do painting, you can call me a painter, I don't mind.

01:12:21.980 - 01:12:36.680

You can call me installation artist, I did a lot of work before I, I make functional work. You can call me potter. So I feel like it's such, again, it's about name like I–I, it's just how people call you in a way. So I feel that has to be different than how you identify yourself.

01:12:36.920 - 01:12:45.130

So like, for–for–for me, like I don't mind people call me anything. You can call me anything. Like, yeah, but, again, in my mind, I–I definitely

01:12:45.820 - 01:12:58.550

needed to put artist in front of, in front of everything else, 'cause that seems–seems like that's–that's my life quest. I feel like that's what I, that I, in–in the, in the end, in the end of the day, I'm making work to try to communicate

01:12:58.550 - 01:13:12.130

with the world, or communicate with myself. So that needs to be, that needs to be in the, in the front. But–but for artists that are dealing with identity, like with social justice as the theme in a way, or they're

01:13:12.130 - 01:13:28.770

experiencing that life, that–that–that part of their life, I feel like that could sometimes become more important to identify that as a, as important issue in the work. So I feel like e-everyone ha-have a hierarchy in a way.

01:13:28.770 - 01:13:42.970

So I really, I really feel like I don't have to say that I say that, I don't have to say I'm an Asian artist, 'cause you can see it. You can see in the work as well, 'cause I've been told by my friends on my like, here we walk into this gallery,

01:13:42.970 - 01:13:56.220

we know it, that's your work, that's like just–just speaks to–to me like about China, like it can speak Asian to me. I was like, really? I didn't even see that, like, see, so I felt like that-that's, again, like we talked about how–how it's

01:13:56.220 - 01:14:08.740

part of who we are, like where we were growing up, and then where we are, who we are, I feel like it is always going to be part of you, and what you're making is also going to be who you are. It's–it's all your babies, have

01:14:08.740 - 01:14:23.290

your DNA in it, you can't escape from it. So I think it's really important to, to really have honest conversation about yourself with this. So I never feel, I never feel like I have to, I

01:14:23.290 - 01:14:38.330

have to justify, like—I–I used to do that, like I feel like I have to, I have to tell the whole history, like, about, like, where this idea come from and then all that, so. But I–I at some point right now I feel in my career I'm more relaxed about

01:14:38.330 - 01:14:51.330

it, because I know there are something, some, there are a lot of other things define who I am, who I am not just my nationality, not just my gender, not just my looks or my age.

01:14:51.350 - 01:15:04.430

So I think there are—humans are very complex, I feel like you look at everybody, they are also so complex, you–you can't just simply say you are what, because that, you are what, that doesn't mean anything in the end of the day.

01:15:05.270 - 01:15:20.450

Again, it's–it's a convenience of the society to categorize things to, to make things easier. So I really feel as individual it's very important to really search a spiritual journey, or sp-spiritual, and, or,

01:15:20.520 - 01:15:37.740

or identity in a way that–that really, you know, make sense, I think, or speak true about your feelings or your own experience. And then I feel like people need to embrace, embrace, embrace a little bit more, in-instead of—even

01:15:37.740 - 01:15:49.970

if, even embrace it means that you have questions about it, you can talk about that question. I feel like a lot, a lot of times people are jumping to conclusions too fast, in a way, so. I feel like if—that answered your question, you

01:15:50.050 - 01:16:03.330

know, I feel like I, like, really like to kind of expanding it, the topics. I–I, it's, like, the way that I think is sort of like a connected, interconnected, so. Yeah, definitely, and thank you for elaborating on that.

01:16:04.180 - 01:16:23.700

And as, yeah, this topic is, I guess, for many of us, our minds. And I'm also curious, in terms of, sorry... So in terms of Asian American artists in–in the US, what are

01:16:23.850 - 01:16:44.350

some of the most misunderstood aspects of Asian American artists in your mind? Or misrepresented? I think, um, I wanna say, I feel it's, again, not misrepresented, I feel it–it, it's not

01:16:44.350 - 01:16:54.650

represented enough, of course, it get, definitely need to represent it more in a way. I definitely want to see more work. And then, and I–I

01:16:54.860 - 01:17:07.490

think the common thing I've seen is symbolism, is using a lot of symbolism, 'cause it's–it's how–how a lot of Asian cultures are. 'Cause–'cause within the vast history, already, there are so many existing

01:17:07.490 - 01:17:22.800

languages, and then you're using a symbol as a way of, like, expressing it. At some point I feel is overused in a way, like, there's l-, there's just too many symbols that are too recognizable. So, so I–I definitely wanted to see more, definitely

01:17:23.640 - 01:17:40.040

wanted to see more, but also wanted to see more different approaches as well. And I–I–I can only speak for how I'm observing, like the–the work that I've seen, but I've seen very conceptual work, I re-, which I really enjoy.

01:17:40.690 - 01:17:58.220

There are a lot of great, great artists that I've, that I've met that they really, you know, the work not just having a strong concept, but also have a lot of ar-artistic skills. I feel like we–we—like that, my training too, like, I feel we

01:17:58.270 - 01:18:13.110

really value artistic skills, like, like, it has to look good. And then it has to represent something, right? So I feel like we covered all aspects of it. And then I think sometimes it's just sometimes you

01:18:13.110 - 01:18:21.970

see—I want to, I want my work to be more realized, that's just like me, like I want my work to be more like freeform, I don't care about too much out whether it looks good or not.

01:18:22.010 - 01:18:34.840

I feel like I wanted to have a little bit of more balance there. But–but th-that's not a negative thing, too. I think, I think that's just very individual like depends on

01:18:36.040 - 01:18:49.270

how–how–how we can have like represent the work. So–so I–I feel like all artists is gonna be misunderstood in a way, because with specific messages I think

01:18:49.310 - 01:19:06.610

that–that–that people trying to convey–convey there art, again, I feel there are two–two different, like we talked about the art-artists role and then the social activist, so that is, that's two different roles, I feel like.

01:19:06.730 - 01:19:21.050

So as an artist, right, as an activist, I feel like there are, there are, there are goals is for results, right, there are if you are a activist, you want it to see results. But as an artist it's always different, 'cause it–it can be inspiring people to

01:19:21.050 - 01:19:32.680

seek results. It can be also just in a way that communicating people, 'cause then the idea I feel travels faster than, than the actual thing. So that can be very influential, I guess.

01:19:33.290 - 01:19:47.970

So I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of work about search. I feel like that's a big topic, about like searching identity, searching meaning, which is great. I think it's good, but it can also be bad.

01:19:48.070 - 01:20:02.950

So–so like, we, I was in this panel on some artists'–artists' talk about, like, sometimes they get an invitation just because it's black month, just because their color skin like, like just because of, oh, this is, oh, we want you to do something, because you are this color.

01:20:03.320 - 01:20:16.090

That–that–that, if I'm the artist, I will be a little offended, I feel like it can, it can be a good thing, but i-it can be offended, you know, as a way like, oh, you only think of me because–because–because of my color, not just because my work.

01:20:16.480 - 01:20:25.970

So like it felt like it needs to happen more, like year round, rather, you–you really needed to think about it as a way like, how–how can we, how can we promote?

01:20:26.760 - 01:20:40.950

How can we promote that? So we're just not just going to represent it as, as that's small time period, in–in–in all times, so, a-again, I feel, again, I'm–I'm definitely it's a time to reflect.

01:20:41.470 - 01:20:52.350

So and I–I hope definitely to see more. I feel like I've not seen enough, I feel. Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for,

01:20:53.670 - 01:21:05.920

like, advocating for Asian American artists in that aspect. I think it's very, very universal the way that you put it. Yeah, I–I–I really think of it as–as, as a, as a

01:21:09.400 - 01:21:22.980

important voice. I feel like it's just, I feel like it–it needs to be—and–and that's the thing, i-it's also, i-it's also hard, too, I think it's very hard, it's very hard to really, to kind of

01:21:22.980 - 01:21:37.680

really, you know, it's already hard enough for, for individual to really look for, look for sort of like an answer. I feel like there's–there's sometimes it's just—not everything has the answer, it's the frustrating part. So I feel like if

01:21:37.680 - 01:21:53.470

we're closer, it-it's already good, so. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm–I'm curious also your connection to ceramics as a traditional media, as I–I noticed that you have

01:21:53.470 - 01:22:07.370

also held exhibitions at Jingdezhen, the kind of city of and origin of porcelain and–and ceramics. So, like how connected to kind of traditional craftsmanship and

01:22:08.040 - 01:22:24.000

ceramics are you? Respect. I think it's definitely, definitely, yeah, huge. But I–I wouldn't say, I feel like in the training, of course, and then you—the first time ever visit Jingdezhen is actually when

01:22:24.000 - 01:22:34.940

I was an undergrad, we do this field trips, I did my BFA work. So my third year, I was preparing my–my show, then I actually spend a couple months in Jingdezhen making work.

01:22:35.310 - 01:22:49.790

So this is the first time I felt frustrated, I feel like I'm always pretty good at what I'm doing. But then, when, till you see the artisan there, you are, like, you don't know what you're doing, pretty much. So, yeah, it's just everybody, like we–we saw so many great artists and they

01:22:49.790 - 01:23:00.670

just they can throw a cop like in, like a couple seconds. Done. So fast, so beautiful. And everything is—it's just that amount of craftsmanship, I think, to

01:23:00.710 - 01:23:14.050

a point where–where you feel you're–you're never going to be like, you're never gonna get there. You gotta look for something else, I feel like. So that was really, like what I feel like, there-there's so much about

01:23:14.050 - 01:23:28.080

tradition, like my training as well, we did a lot of like traditional ceramics like, like learning like the Qing Hua, learning like how to do, like, the traditional techniques.

01:23:28.080 - 01:23:38.100

They–they are very very time consuming. And the traditional ceramic, especially in Jingdezhen, they are, they are not just one artist, you are all, all the different tasks, all the

01:23:38.100 - 01:23:51.450

seventy-two steps to make ceramics is all been so refined into individual tasks. So–so people are thrower, they gonna be throwing so good; people are doing, you know, glaze, glazing, a lot of

01:23:51.450 - 01:24:01.950

them are woman, they're painters, they-they're gonna paint so beautifully, so fast, so professional. So and then it-it's really very different. So as an artist, you have to do everything you have to do all of that, right.

01:24:01.950 - 01:24:15.570

So it's kind of hard actually. So like you have to accept that you're not going to be like a-an master at one area. So like in terms of craftsmanship, so. But I think there are great moments when you, when you can do things that are

01:24:15.570 - 01:24:28.460

so beautifully so well crafted at a point where you can liberate yourself from the craft, it's–it's a true spiritual experience. But that's, that's not all

01:24:28.580 - 01:24:41.310

craftsmen, I feel like, will be able to experience, 'cause you do have to really, in that moment. So, th-this is kinda like influential by, like, a lot of, like, Japanese artists, I think that traditional potters they have that in there,

01:24:41.700 - 01:24:53.630

they–they started to play, you know, they're not just making the same thing over and over again, they start to play, they really enjoy that, that like freedom, they–they kind of like sort of already have a big—but–but that is builded

01:24:53.680 - 01:25:05.340

beca-because of they had all that experience. So I feel it's definitely a, a subject that I have to revisit over and over again. But y-you really don't see that–that obvious

01:25:07.780 - 01:25:17.570

of a connection with some of my sculptural work, or some my paintings with that. But if you look at my traditional, like, look at my ceramic work, I feel like I'm still on a long,

01:25:17.570 - 01:25:32.120

long, long path to–to better my craftsman, to make, to make it just a little bit better teacup, a little bit better cups, or bowl, like. And then I'm also teaching that as well, I feel like that part of that teaching comes–comes–comes very naturally.

01:25:32.120 - 01:25:41.780

It's just because when you really pay attention to how things are made, and then you really appreciate who makes the object behind this object. And that–that changes the whole world.

01:25:41.780 - 01:25:53.940

So, so yeah, I really, I really still think that's very important. So yeah, the Jingdezhen expedition I had actually, it's not—it's–it's funny, because I was actually doing a residency, so, as an international artist.

01:25:54.860 - 01:26:08.880

So–so I'm actually, you know, not, even though I speak Chinese, people think, oh, you are, you look like a foreigner. So it's sort of a very interesting environment. And then my, the feedback that I got, actually, when I was making the work there, I

01:26:08.880 - 01:26:19.600

was really using local resources, as I actually collaborate with like, local artists, and then I have them make some part of the work, and I will recreate some of the aspects of it.

01:26:19.860 - 01:26:34.610

And I use traditional “Qing Hua” , like decor papers, so those are all very local, very traditional, but about when I, but when I had exhibition of, and then the feedback said, oh, this is totally like Western artists, like doesn't look Chinese at all.

01:26:35.390 - 01:26:48.140

But all the American artists, I think, at the same time, or other arti-, international artists that were visiting the show, they will think this is very Chinese, yeah, great. So you-you'll see it's actually beautiful, because you're in a

01:26:48.220 - 01:26:59.240

very interesting time where you can be both, you know, I feel like it, again, back to the topic, we can be both, we don't have to be limited by our nationality, we can embrace all different cultures, I feel.

01:26:59.760 - 01:27:11.170

So it's–it's actually, I feel it's a luxury to be able to do that. So I really looking at it in a way that will we can really bring–bring the more thoughts in both sides, right?

01:27:11.170 - 01:27:24.740

'Cause, uh, I think that–that one side, they can think okay, traditional material can be different, you can really play with in a different sense, that, not just on a traditional va-vase, or tea cup. That same thing, like there are, there are so much value

01:27:25.940 - 01:27:40.040

behind–behind all this tradition, it's big treasure, I feel like it's just too, too much that you can't really have enough. But, again, you can't really let your tradition trap you. If you, if I have to honor a tradition that I, that I

01:27:40.040 - 01:27:53.880

probably will have so much rules that I can't really, I feel like I have to still break from that tradition in a way, that, to make, to–to, in a way, so I can better connect with it, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's so true.

01:27:53.880 - 01:28:09.110

Like you said, it's a luxury, as well as, it could be a little bit of a burden as well. And also, it's so much fun to, to hear that there's a dichotomy in the work yourself that it's like both Western and Eastern.

01:28:10.240 - 01:28:23.930

And I'm also curious, like kind of you working along that kind of better your craftsmanship from the traditional lineage, as well as some, as a contemporary artist, you kind of need to subvert something from the tradition and

01:28:23.930 - 01:28:38.640

break out from it. Like what-what do you subvert, and w-what are you trying to break out from? I think it's, I feel it's sort of like a mold you're creating, if you, if it makes sense. Every time you make something, you're already creating a mold.

01:28:39.010 - 01:28:54.800

So I think your job is to keep breaking that mold. So you define yourself, and then you got to break yourself, and then redefine yourself. I think it's never ending journey, so–so in–in my—I feel like the challenge that I am trying to really, you know, use

01:28:54.800 - 01:29:07.180

myself as refer-reference point instead of looking at my society or people around me as referen- reference point. I used to do that, I feel it gives me tremendous anxiety I feel like I'm never, I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough.

01:29:07.180 - 01:29:19.030

So it's to think all those things that get to you, so–so now I'm really thinking you know, you really you know, your own enemy is yourself. So I feel I'm constantly at a point where like, I feel like

01:29:19.720 - 01:29:36.300

I will establish a ritual, I will establish a way of working, and then I will, I will create things, and I will try, and okay, now what? Right? You gotta break it. So I–I think is same as values as things that we believe, I feel w-when we were

01:29:36.300 - 01:29:51.520

asked to write a sort of manifesto look at art, like, like, how do you define it like, sort of thing, I–I think I wrote something really interesting is about, you have to change the definition every year or something, you have to keep evolving, you

01:29:51.520 - 01:30:02.080

have to redefine who you are, redefine the meaning of it, in a way. So I think that's, that's what really important. That's what I felt like it keeps

01:30:02.110 - 01:30:17.260

me going. It's–it's just like, no, no, my own kind of like limi-limitations, right? Acknowledge that. So–so all those questions I already thought about is, you know, you have, so if I'm making work in

01:30:17.260 - 01:30:27.500

China, do I have to worry so much about craftsmanship? But, but again, it's part of the languages, it's already part of who you are. So don't break it, you know, sometimes—you know, and then you kind of go back and forth,

01:30:27.730 - 01:30:38.880

and it's okay, maybe it's a little too much, then you break it. So I think that process of breaking in and rebuilding is more interesting than, than this is who I am, like, period.

01:30:39.080 - 01:30:52.880

So event is a, is a, is a, is a continuing dialogue. It is a ongoing dialogue. And it's an ever evolving dialogue, instead of like a set thing, right? 'Cause, 'cause everything moves around, right?

01:30:53.440 - 01:31:08.670

Time flows. So you have to let yourself flow with the time and evolve with the time as well. Wow, thank you so much for giving us so much background and context. And also next, I'm trying to kind of

01:31:08.740 - 01:31:22.860

get to know more about you as a person. And what do you do outside of your work? Oh! Wow, that's a, I feel like there are time periods, like I don't have a life, I just have work, it's just so sad.

01:31:23.630 - 01:31:36.200

So yeah, no, I feel like again, I–I guess it's because of pandemic too, I feel like I know, I'm really, you know, be able to embrace a little bit more. So I live in upstate New York, actually, I also live at the shore of the

01:31:36.790 - 01:31:47.200

Lake Ontario and then Oswego River. So, actually, I'm around very, very beautiful, natural things. So like, in the past, I felt like I've been neglecting, I was just focusing on what I'm doing.

01:31:48.010 - 01:31:59.890

I feel like I don't have enough time. But now I feel really, it's important actually to take–take that time, and then to–to just do hiking, like, so I do a lot of hiking, and then I–I recently interested in fishing.

01:32:01.370 - 01:32:13.850

I just got my fishing license today. So yeah, it's just a lot of, you know, more–more things I feel like I can explore. Uh, so just in, just lost myself in–in the nature, and I–I felt

01:32:13.850 - 01:32:25.910

like that really helped me also looking at my work in a different way to go back to my work, oh, no. So yeah, it's just about things that are in general, like, I feel like I'm more connected with, with the landscape here.

01:32:26.450 - 01:32:38.640

So in the past, I've never actually spent any summer in–in the US, or, like, very rarely. I will do a little bit of here most of the time I will travel back to Hunan, to China, or just I–I feel like there's so much,

01:32:39.080 - 01:32:50.950

there's so many places in China I haven't been to, I'd never visit, but I've, but–but I've been to a lot of places here in the US, and then I had opportunity to show my mom and my sister around as well, like, to–to–to let them see

01:32:50.950 - 01:33:02.100

the diverse landscape here in the US. I feel like that's, that's always something that, that's important. Like, feel like if they've never been here, they don't know what kind of life that I'm leading, they'll be worried sick.

01:33:02.120 - 01:33:14.560

They were like, why? Because they've been really trying to push me to go back to China a lot in the, in the past. And then because of the maybe two years ago, I actually invite them over, and then let them see what are the environment

01:33:14.560 - 01:33:27.290

that I'm living in, and then, I feel they feel a little bit better about, about things, so. So yeah, that's good. So yeah, I think it's just more connected with like, feel more connected with the world around me now.

01:33:27.570 - 01:33:36.730

And cooking, did–did more cooking study, study better recipes. So–so tho-tho-those are important as well. So I think, I think that definitely helps me

01:33:36.730 - 01:33:50.610

as well. And yeah, and I-I-I wanted to do more exercise or yoga and stuff, but it-it's–it's hard. And then in the past, because I–I do have very, a pain, I have a lot of pain of, the,

01:33:50.610 - 01:34:02.900

my hand I had like tendinitis and nerve pinch because I overworked. So like I also sort of like give me a wake up call, like your body is like telling you, you can't be like, you–you need to respect your body.

01:34:02.900 - 01:34:14.240

You can't really just, you know, abuse it, like let it overwork. I was like okay, okay. So I'm just really trying to rebalance a life that I feel like I can listen, listen to myself a little bit more

01:34:14.240 - 01:34:26.380

and then not—and then experiencing the environment and the people around me a little bit more, not just, you know, living in a art bubble. Sometimes I do, so. Yeah, that's fascinating.

01:34:28.050 - 01:34:42.560

And I'm also curious have, like a lot of artists kind of let their personal life become the kind of inspiration for their artistic creativity? Do you happen to kind of let your like family,

01:34:43.490 - 01:35:01.420

friends, or personal relationship, like romantic relationship, kind of become a source of your work? Um, I try not to. I think I've seen a lot actually, especially, especially in the—I will see that especially in my

01:35:01.420 - 01:35:13.120

students' work a lot. I feel there are time period you–you go through, you are, every work is autobiography. I actually, we have assignment is called autobiography, you talk about your own family

01:35:13.340 - 01:35:23.060

or yourself in a, in a way that you really connected. I think that's how naturally that's how people start to be creative. So what I really like, I

01:35:23.060 - 01:35:33.770

don't, I don't remember where I heard this, but I think is maybe one of the Japanese writer, and then he talks about everybody can be a writer, and then it's your third book. So you will know if you're actually going to be a writer,

01:35:33.770 - 01:35:41.720

'cause the first one is always going to be autobiographies, there's always some stories you wanted to share. And you know, like how you grew up. So this is like, everybody has a story, of course.

01:35:42.540 - 01:35:52.630

So that could be, that-that's definitely a one, already interesting book. But then the sort of like the second and then the third is actually where you actually talk about something that you will try to connect it with the wider

01:35:52.810 - 01:36:01.680

audience, and then think about what they're, how–how do you connect with that audience, and maybe—or just that you really be able to establish yourself, like, look at something other than yourself.

01:36:02.150 - 01:36:14.790

I feel like I'm already super obsessed with myself, by myself anyways, I just don't feel like I needed to do that in my work. And I think it will be exhausting. And then, it's like just—again, like I said, like, it-it's–it's about like contradictions,

01:36:14.790 - 01:36:27.340

it's about things that are, things that–that are, that doesn't make sense. I feel like m-my, so my–my mechanism is I use my work to make sense of the world. So like, if I just obsess about myself, it's just not gonna work.

01:36:27.890 - 01:36:42.860

And relationship, of course, definitely influencing, I think everybody, right? Like, I–I feel , if I'm in a healthy, good relationship, if I'm calm, like I can be more productive, I feel like I'm supported, I feel like I will be actually

01:36:43.060 - 01:36:51.460

make better works. So that definitely helps. But the opposite is the opposite. So definitely don't, I don't think that's a good, good way.

01:36:52.160 - 01:37:06.590

But, and, of course, also, if you, if you think about using your personal story in the work I feel it is, so-sometimes I really enjoy works like that if there's, if it's done really, really well, and if it has a universal

01:37:07.520 - 01:37:21.970

meaning behind it, and I feel like it connected with it, I think definitely. But not all the, but not all–all the work, I will be able to connect it, I feel sometimes they just, like, they're too many. I think in the beginning is a good

01:37:21.970 - 01:37:37.050

thing. But towards the end, I feel like we have to, we have to kind of think about some-something else that you wanted to share. And then, and then again, photography, pho-photos, I feel that's very, or video, and then I feel

01:37:37.050 - 01:37:49.820

like a lot of the other media, they will be able to do that relatively easier, 'cause you're using real imageries, and then you're really using real life resources. I feel like that–that in a way, it's very easy to connect it.

01:37:50.890 - 01:38:04.960

So I don't really see—maybe it's because of my material, because we have such a strong connection with object. So I'm more connected with things around me. I feel I will really go into restaurant, or like a Vietnamese restaurant, say,

01:38:05.100 - 01:38:18.500

ah, look at that tea–tea, like that tea cup is so unique or different, like that–that bowl is different. I will, I flip the bag and then see where it's made, so. So yeah, I feel like I'm more connected with objects, I think, more than, like,

01:38:18.500 - 01:38:32.180

in the, in the work, in the work, I feel. Wow, that's super interesting. So I guess we're approaching the–the kind of end of the interview, and we also

01:38:32.180 - 01:38:50.570

want to be mindful of your time. So to–to conclude, I guess, what do you think you'll be doing the next five, ten years? Ah, wow, great question! Yeah, I think the, I don't really, yeah, I hope, I hope

01:38:50.570 - 01:39:02.790

I can definitely continue doing what I'm doin, 'cause my biggest wish is that when I'm, like, all of a sudden, if I'm, if I, like, if I die one day, I feel like I'm looking back, I have no regrets.

01:39:03.090 - 01:39:13.630

Like I feel like in general, like, that's how I feel about all my past experience that don't feel like have any regrets. I feel every step is sort of like, like I thought about it, I decided then, okay, embrace it.

01:39:13.900 - 01:39:26.260

So I think that's what in general what it is. So I really hoping I can continuing expand my work, I–I started have fine, there are some really interesting conversation that I had with my work in the past

01:39:26.450 - 01:39:39.910

couple months. So I really wanted to kind of continue with that dialogue, like really bring my work to the next level, whatever that means to me. And then, so I definitely wanted to show more, and then use opportunity to

01:39:39.910 - 01:39:55.660

kind of be able to connect my work with more people, I think that's important. Um, and I'm looking forward to my sabbatical, 'cause that–that will, that means I will have a year off that I can really devote my time to, to my work,

01:39:56.220 - 01:40:12.990

which I feel like I've been lost a little bit of because of teaching. So I-I'm definitely looking forward to that. Also, I wanted to be able to spend more time in China to, I feel like I haven't seen my family since the pandemics, so it's

01:40:12.990 - 01:40:25.790

just been very hard. I feel like definitely need a couple good, time, to spend time with family and reconnected with things, friends, and then people that I have met in China.

01:40:25.790 - 01:40:40.570

So–so I think that's important. Yeah, in general, and like, five, ten years, like ten years, I hope, hopefully, I will be, like, have family and kids, and–and also great artists. So yeah, I think that's always my goal, I feel like I'm always

01:40:40.620 - 01:40:56.430

on, always on my, on my way to, to–to do, to do all that, so. Yeah. Sounds good. And I guess I will also like to invite you to kind of leave a time capsule for us, for you,

01:40:57.160 - 01:41:13.660

yourself in the future, or for kind of, like, for anthropology reasons or for, like, when–when we discover this archive from like, many years and years later by an alien or something. Yeah, I think that's definitely going to be what happens.

01:41:13.660 - 01:41:32.080

So what would you like to leave in the time capsule? Do I say that now? Or–or later if you want to, I can... So you–you mean like, leave like a time capsule just to the people in the

01:41:32.120 - 01:41:49.800

future? Wow, that's pretty cool! Yeah, I think, I think definitely—I want, I want you people in the future, and to really look at my work,

01:41:49.800 - 01:41:58.570

right, and then think of what the heck is that? Oh, my God. So I think that's fun, yes? I, 'cause I–I don't want, I

01:41:58.650 - 01:42:15.920

think it's–it's, I'm hoping, like, you're happy, you know, you're–you're–you're, like I feel like how old, like twenty, thirty, fifty years of, of later, like, I wanted to still be able to kind of like, if it's to myself, like, I feel like I'm, I

01:42:16.520 - 01:42:30.240

want, wanted to say that I'm like, pretty proud of the things that I made, yeah. And I'm by, but I think you know, that a lot of things that it doesn't have to have explanation. So even if you don't know what it is, it doesn't, doesn't,

01:42:30.470 - 01:42:40.090

it's not important. So I feel like it's just like, again, time is irrelevant, if you thinking about the time in the future, 'cause we can change it. I can change, I can change that much.

01:42:40.110 - 01:42:47.160

I can't change things that are not happening yet. I also cannot change the past. So why do I worry about that, right? So I should just focusing on this moment.

01:42:47.700 - 01:42:59.760

And then you know, that's all it matters. So, yeah. That was really well said. And I–I guess that's a wonderful ending and a very futuristic one

01:43:00.810 - 01:43:14.530

for our interview. I should do a little bit more like sci-fi, I guess, a little bit more of a... Next chapter! Great. Thank you, Renqian. Thank you. Very nice talking to you.