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All right. Today is June 28, 2021. My name is Sonia He, and today I'm interviewing Mr. Perry Yung for the Houston Asian-- Houston Asian American Archive. Thank you so much for being here today with us, Mr.

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Yung. And I guess my first question is, when and where were you born? I was born in Oakland, California in 1964. Okay, and how would you kind of describe the household you grew up in and your family life as a child? Well, I think it was a very typical

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Chinatown, first generation, immigrant-parent, family household apartment complex. We lived on the second floor and yeah, in Chinatown, so I would say that my community was all

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bilingual: Cantonese from the Khoisan region, dialect, and yeah, working parents in the traditional Japanese--sorry, Chinese jobs, which is cooks, laundrymen, you know, seamstresses.

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And yeah, we went to a school in Chinatown that was 90% Chinese person first and recent immigrants. And all my friends were mostly

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Chinese Americans until we moved out of Chinatown around the age of when I was around 11 into the Oakland Hills. And so then my-my friends suddenly became a more sort of like a diverse rainbow coalition of Oakland.

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That's nice. So how would you describe the kind of two neighborhoods you kind of said the Chinatown with mostly Chinese and then how would you describe the differences or maybe the challenges and living there when you were 11? To Oakland?

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Yeah. Well, you know, it's, it's, I think of it as a very rare experience for Chinese in America to be to grow up in an environment that was where you’re the majority. So within those, like maybe eight city blocks, square city

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blocks, we were mostly the majority. And even in my school, it was, you know, like I said, 90% Chinese Americans. And we saw the black, you know, Mexican, white kids as the other, you know, as a minority that- that

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we got along with, you know, but we saw them as definitely the minority. And Chinatown has, so we, you know, we roamed freely throughout Chinatown. Everybody knew each other. This was the 60’s and 70’s.

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I-all the people I saw on the streets were parents of my friends or friends or cousins, and yeah, but yeah, my cousins, my friends’ cousins, it's like everybody knew each other. You know, it was probably, I would say that the Chinatown denizens

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at that point, maybe we're only like, 1000 people at the most, probably not, not even that much. But we know, we knew most of the people and every restaurant, we went into every shop we went into, we were very familiar with

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the owners and the owners, although they might not know us by name, knew who we were, you know, we were the kids that would come every day after school. You know, there were our favorite little, you know, like preserved fruit shops, you know, very Chinese snacks.

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Like they saw us every day. And it was such a beautiful community. And I think that it was something that's, you know, I'm lucky to have had growing up when I heard about other Chinese Americans or Asian or immigrants, not

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immigrants, people of color, who don't, who couldn't identify with the culture, they grew up necessarily what they stuck out, or they were the other. So I was lucky to have that. And-but I also recognize that Chinatown was very insular in that it was

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surrounded by more impoverished black neighborhoods, like we were in downtown Oakland. So, you know, there was Broadway, which was the border of Chinatown in West Oakland, which was one of the most impoverished neighborhoods in

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Oakland, it was quite dangerous. So we would, when we would wander off into Broadway, because that's where the movies were, we were kids, you know, we would watch these downtown movies, what these, what are known as Grindhouse

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Theaters, where you would see you know, like three movies for a dollar, you know, in the 70’s, you would see like horror movies, gay movies and kung fu movies. So we would go to these places and spend a lot of our childhood

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in a summer as many summers were spent there. And we would recognize that, you know, it would be a little dangerous. Because we were just this, you know, little group of Chinese kids, and we would see, you know, there

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were, you know, it's like it was-it was like what-what an urban environment and the downtown black city was like in the 70s. You know, it was dangerous. But we were able to navigate it and sometimes we get our lunch of money

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taken or something like that. But yeah, you know, and that-that was what we saw like my first Bruce Lee movies and we saw a culture of change. When-right when Bruce Lee's movies were coming out, we really saw how

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representation can impact the culture of positivity. And not just our culture, but the larger American culture because blacks became big fans of martial arts and Bruce Lee, and I saw like, our world changed because suddenly we weren't

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picked on anymore. We were like the cool kids because we might have known some Kung Fu, you know. So, um, so we had that experience of knowing that also, things could be dangerous right outside of Chinatown,

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outside of Chinatown, and that there will work inequities, you know, because, like, there were when my family moved to the Oakland Hills, in a more middle class neighborhood that was more, you know, mixed in terms of black, white,

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Chinese, I saw that we didn't have the same kind of tension on the streets. You know, the streets were cleaner, more spacious trees, you know, and you're like, wow, this is a very different neighborhood, a very different way

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of living. And then I would visit my friends in Chinatown. And notice, yeah, this is a-this is an impoverished neighborhood. You know, people are stacked up on top of each other.

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And Chinatown was not as clean as, you know, where we moved. So up in the Oakland Hills, I got to-got to get a taste of the larger American society.

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What would you say are some of the values your parents emphasized in your upbringing? And do you think this was influenced kind of by the different environments that you grew up in? Well, my parents were very traditional Chinese. Cantonese, from Guang Zhou in Hong Kong.

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My mother, my father's from Toisann Guang Zhou, which is where most Chinese immigrants came from, historically, and my mother's from New Territories, Hong Kong. So they-- It was kind of like a country bumpkin meets a city girl, I

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think. Or at least she moved to the city and I think that maybe her father was a country bumpkin. So I think that there-there was very traditional Confucianist, patriarchal kind of Buddhist,

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you know, culture. So the families were very important. And how you committed or aligned yourself with your work, and how it pertains to supporting the family was very important.

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There was always a status that, you know, you always had to honor the elders, respect the elders, and there was a li-- you know, a line, a hierarchy, obviously, you know, in learning how your uncles and aunts were named, number one, or number two, or number three,

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and then your cousin number one, because number two cousin on your father's side number one, so it was kind of ridiculous, you know, but it was a way that that society sort of, had to be organized, and have a kind of respect, in order of respect.

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So I didn't really realize all that growing up, obviously, but I did know the numbers, you know, how to call my aunts and uncles, and regard them as the big uncle and that kind of stuff.

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So I realized there was some hierarchy, but I didn't really learn about it till later on in life. So I would say that I was imparted a lot of those traditional values of respecting-respecting your parents.

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Trying to be sure that you don't embarrass or shame your-your parents in doing you know, bad things. Because that seems to be more important is the shaming, you know, dishonoring your parents and it's kind of funny, when I see that in

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Milan or something, you know, don't dishonor your parents. It's like, actually, that's true. You know, that's-that comes from an Asian, at least to Chinese culture, that I know of. Yeah, so I think that was passed on it.

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And, you know, trying to, I think that my parents were a little less lenient towards career than some of my friends, I think, had, was more pressured into, you know,

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like, finding a job that was lucrative or well-paying, or respectable, more respectable. But-so whether it's a doctor or lawyer or engineer, and those things, I think that some of my friends--

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I saw some of my friends pressured into that with- with schooling. And my parents were more just, I think that they imparted a stronger work ethic towards me, and more, be happy, earn a good living, and respect people

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around you and be a good human being as opposed to get the most out of the dollar, you know, than I think some, some of the immigrants my Chinese friends were exposed to. What were your parents, or like, what were your parents’ careers

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when you were younger? My parents are very-- they had the very typical quintessential Chinese-American jobs. When they came, they were-my father was a laundry man, a chef, my mother was a seamstress, a babysitter.

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And then, and then she worked in a factory paper factory where she was basically you know, boxing paper that was being cut in-in sort of like a mill. And my father continued to drive out, you know,

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still be involved with laundry but work outside of the actual laundry by driving a delivery truck. So he would drive all over Oakland, picking up big orders from you know, hotels and things like that's what that his laundry can do all you know that

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commercial laundry. And then when we were teenagers, and my father bought the quintessential Chinese restaurant in the middle of nowhere, and that was Texarkana, Texas. So we became that Chinese family in the middle of nowhere.

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And I guess, what were some of the things that interested you as a kid, you mentioned, you went to the movie theaters a lot, did that kind of influence what you wanted to do in the future? I think so. I mean, I, you know, I was the youngest of three boys, so, and my parents

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were immigrants. And I think that they were preoccupied with making a living like most immigrants, and but all I could remember was, I was babysat by the television a lot.

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I think I was left alone a lot. And when I wasn't alone, I was tagging along with my older brothers, and basically just thinking, “Oh, yeah, I think my older brothers just have to take care of

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me, because there's no one else around.” But you know, so I was heavily influenced by television. And at a certain age, when I was able to really be by myself and other kids, I think we were probably around maybe 10 or 11,

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when we were able to wander through the streets of Oakland by ourselves and go to these theaters, I think, yeah, so it was it was a lot of film. I think a lot of TV, television, and film was the major form

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that influenced me growing up and there was music also, I think my father liked to blast Cantonese opera in the house, you know, but he was also very quick to assimilate.

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So I remember also Elvis Presley being played loudly, you know, on our like, Hi-fi stereo set that by, so my father was definitely in-into pop culture and assimilating and he would dress more Western, quickly, as I look back at photos.

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So I would say that mostly it was-it was film. Yeah, film, television, and popular music actually. Okay, um, did your parents really kind of try to bring you up with the traditional Chinese culture besides the

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Confucian values, or did they-they try to encourage you to assimilate? I think that by osmosis, they-they encouraged us to, to be good people and work hard. Like, I don't think that

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they knew what assimilation really meant. You know, like, I think that-that because they-their community was definitely in Chinatown, and they didn't really think about moving out until we moved to Texas. I think they just

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thought about trying to, I think, you know, at their level, I think being an American and working hard and being able to buy a car and have a decent apartment that can house three kids was already a luxury that they never had.

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So I don't know if they had-- they never imparted any sort of philosophy or, or encouragement to get more out of us. Like they never said you have to get better than this. So um, yeah, we went to Chinese school.

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So after the English school, and I'm not sure if they actually wanted us to learn Chinese or it was just more babysitting. You know, like, for immigrant parents, that's like, “Oh, yeah, this will keep the kids busier, for the next, you know, three hours after school until we get

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off work.” And so it's good that they should, you know, maybe, maybe if they learn to read a few Chinese characters, it’s a good thing. So I just remember going to Chinese school.

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And it being very strict. The teachers were very strict, you know, there was there was not, not as fun as Western white American, you know, education. So, I think that that part of the, I

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never asked them, but, you know, it was either that they wanted us to continue to learn a little bit about, you know, Chinese culture and reading and stories through that education. Or just, it was just more babysitting.

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Yeah. When did your family move to the United States? And did your parents ever tell you why they decided to move? Well, I-I was born in 1964.

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So and they had been here a year; they had immigrated the year before. And that was basically when the most of the quotas from the Chinese Exclusion Act was finally lifted in 1963. So they were really able to immigrate then.

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But my great grandfather was the first as far as I know, to immigrate from Toisan. So I know that around the turn before the turn of the century, my great-great grandfather came and most likely worked on the railroads and then made its way through to Chicago at the end of the

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railroads and opened up a laundry. So we're like I'm like generations of very typical Chinese American labor. My-Because my great grandfather sent money back to China, his son was able to go to school and

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become a Chinese medical doctor. And so he didn't have to immigrate or feel the need to immigrate. But by the time my father was born, the story is that they were escaping communism by-by leaving China.

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So like many Chinese friends that I had growing up in Chinatown, all our stories are very similar. Like they, everybody can say that their parents or their uncles, and everyone swam across the Delta in, you know, from China to Hong Kong, and they

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made their way to America. And that's sort of like, what it was like everybody's story, you know, it wasn't just mine. So it was really interesting how we all had a shared history.

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So I—only way I could, it was never really told to me, because, you know, my father died when I was 15. But my mother would tell me that story, it's like, oh, your father and his uncle, and your uncle swam across the river, you know, to-to Hong Kong and to escape

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communism. And so yeah, so I felt like maybe, maybe my grandfather, you know, he also escaped communism by going to Hong Kong, but he didn't feel the need to go further to America.

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So I have a feeling just like everybody else, you know, the reputation of America at the time was so strong as a gold mountain. And that's the place to make it. So following

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in the footsteps of his footsteps of his grandfather. I’m sure, that's probably why he emigrated. Okay, yeah. And did your parents ever talk to you about the difficulties of immigrating like any culture

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shocks, or how just one year after the Chinese Exclusion Act was lifted like, were there any, like difficulties adjusting to new legislation, new legislation and all that? Yeah, my parents are, you know, both, I—have probably

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did not finish, you know, junior high school at that level. So there, I was there on educated, you know, kind of peasant labor force people, like most people from southern China. So I have a feeling, they didn't really understand the laws at all of what was

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happening in America, they probably realized, “Hey, we can actually immigrate right now they're allowing people in.” So um, and my parents being very typical level, especially my father of a lot of Chinese American fathers, they don't talk,

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you know, they just, they're just there as a patriarchy, patriarchal figure, to, you know, I think he showed he showed a lot of love and care in terms of raising and nurturing. But there wasn't a lot of dissemination of

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information. And I don't think that that was, you know, in, in his culture, or at least his level of class of people. He was not of the educated class. So he didn't talk a lot about philosophy or art or politics, you know, it was more

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like, you know, playing mahjong, you know, and, you know, maybe trying to understand what America was like and fit in. And my mother was also had a very similar situation where she had to drop out of school to work for the family, I think.

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So, they didn't have a lot of that kind of information to pass on. And I basically had to go to college to learn about the history of Chinese in America. Um, I, when I would ask my mother about it, as I got older and more

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curious about 16, 17. This was after my father passed away. My mother would say, “Oh, it was just so hard. I don't think you want to know about that.

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It was difficult, you know, we were so poor.” And, and, you know, and then she would give me every time I would ask them say, “Oh, you don't want to know about that. But, you know, your, your grandfather on her side, you know, her mother, her father was a carpenter, you know, and it was like, he would always

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have work to do. So sometimes he didn't even have materials. But when people would hire him to build the house, he would have to like fashion bricks out of mud, you know, and carry the mud, you know, the bricks hand by hand.” So she would tell these stories, and I'm like, wow, there's so many stories in

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there. But she wouldn't tell it all at once. It was just like, I'll give you a little bit now. Because it's just like, scaffolding the information, because it might be too intense for this 17 year old kid, or 16 year old kid asking you this stuff, you know, it,

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you know, I would hear little bits like, “Oh, yeah, no wonder when I was a kid, you know, people would have to run and hide, because people will say the Japanese are coming, you know, run and hide,” you know? And so I'm like, oh, wow, this was World War

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Two, you know, the Japanese were invading, you know. And so there were a lot of stories that they didn't feel like we had to know. And, you know, it's unfortunate, because those are some seriously authentic stories

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that define who we are. And actually, it's probably why I'm kind of inquisitive now in-in the history of my family and Chinese Americans. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of like trauma and just hardship that a lot of immigrants just don't like to impart

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on their children. Just kind of live a new life. I think. Definitely, definitely they just want to move on. I mean, so many immigrants just want to move on. Yeah. So could you tell me a little bit about your education?

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Like, where do you want to maybe elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and what did you enjoy in school? Well, I went to Lincoln Elementary School in Oakland, California, again, like I say, it's predominantly, you

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know, Chinese Americans of the first and second generation or maybe and immigrants. A lot of people would just like me bilingual speaking English and Cantonese. And it was fun.

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You know, it was it was really fun. I had a great fun childhood there. We did everything that I think, you know, if you read about white American middle class schools, they did, we had plays, dances, we had field trips

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to, you know, science centers, planetariums, we did all of that. Um, you know, and it was only until recently that a friend of mine told me that Lincoln School Lincoln Elementary in Oakland is one of the, the

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specialized schools in Oakland, where it's like, you know, higher learning, you know, so it's interesting. And then we went to, when my family moved out of Chinatown into the more, right at the base of the hills, we went to a middle class

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neighborhood that had quite a mixed group of student body it was, I think it was predominantly black, but a lot of white Mexican, and other Asian you know diaspora in a Japanese, Cambodian, and,

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yeah, and it was, it was then suddenly, like, a kind of a wild awakening of like, “Oh, my God, this is, this is this is a real Oakland,” you know, like, we were just in our little enclave for

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so many years. And I knew that another Oakland existed, but there was no other reason to really go that far out. And, and, you know, like, live in, you know, I would touch other neighborhoods, and just see it, but to actually

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live in the whole of the neighborhood and to make friends. I quickly made friends with a lot of non-Chinese, you know, because, you know, I went from a school of 90%, to maybe a school of 10, 10-15%, Chinese and Asians.

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And so it was like, oh, wow, this is very different. But it was also—there was an opportunity for me to diversify my friends. And in hanging out after school, in my immediate neighborhood were blacks and like,

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you know, Mexicans that rode the bikes around, and I joined them quickly with my bikes, my bike and became really good friends with the people who were not Chinese. And that was new, to like, relate and hang out to people who didn't

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speak Cantonese and have the same shared history. It was exciting, it was a great time, it was kind of a flourishing of identity for a, you know, 12 or 13 year old. And then my parents moved to Texas, so and I spent that

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first day in my new junior high in Texarkana, Texas, was a quite another kind of awakening as I walked into the school and realized, like, I'm the only Chinese. I'm the only Asian in this whole school.

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And, you know, walking it, you know, walking down the hallway from the office of getting checked in to go into my first class. I mean, the hallway sort of parted like, like, as if I was Moses, and that was a Great Sea, you know, I mean, it was just like, people parted ways for this, like

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alien. They've never seen a Chinese person before him. This was 1979. Right? And Texarkana, Texas, what I heard and

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saw was, there was the next day, there was one other Asian, he was Vietnamese. So after they relocated from after the war, to more down towards Galveston, Texas, and probably his family made his way up to Texarkana.

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But I just saw him one day, and then I heard there was another one, and then he was gone, like he, his family moved. But so it was weird. Because after the first day or two, I realized that their education level

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was really below that of California. It's like, kids in my grade level couldn't really read well at all. And when the teachers asked me to read a paragraph from a history book, and I realized, man, these kids are listening to me

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speak English and read better than them and it’s so odd, because I have this yellow face. That's so alien to them. So that further alienated me from making friends,

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you know. Um, but, um, so that was my first first, you know, week in junior high in Texas. But I quickly fell in with, you know, this was late 70s, early 80s.

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And there was really only three or four kinds of people in Texas, or they were like, you know, they were like the Aggies, you know, for families of farmers. I don't have to explain to you. Then there were the you know, I kind of forgot what we call

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the jocks, you know, and then the, the, the nerds, you know, and then the freaks, the ones that get high, you know, and I didn't fit into any of them well, but but the freaks were the most open, most open to accept me, you know, because

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they just also didn't fit in, you know, to the, to the nerds, or the jocks, or the Aggies. So I became, I became friends with a lot of, I became a freak, had long hair, smoked pot, and all that stuff and went to rock concerts,

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and got into that's where I actually learned how to play guitar and realized, developed a love for rock and roll. Because I think, you know, like I said earlier, I did enjoy music a lot.

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But I didn't actually didn't start playing-- Oh, actually, I did. I played the trumpet in elementary school that, you know, in Chinatown, and I got pretty good at it. But I never pursued it more formally,

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no formal lessons. So when I got into Texas, and picked up the guitar, and it fit in with the culture, I just really gravitated towards, you know, rock and roll and that sort of culture. Yeah, music, playing in a band.

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And then I guess, after, then I worked in the restaurant after school, but then my dad contracted cancer, and it got bad, we sold the restaurant, moved back to the Bay Area. And I went back to highs then went back to I went to

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high school in Oakland, and I realized that was another culture shock now, so because that high school was, you know, had a lot of Asian American, had Chinese, white, it was more up in the hills. Now. It's a little more affluent

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area of Oakland, called Skyline that was the high school, and in Texas, I developed a sort of like a rock star persona, looked at, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't racist, but it was a curiosity. Who's this kid, he's Asian, and

00:26:59.660 - 00:27:10.380

he speaks English. So everywhere I went, but when I went to Oakland, it was like, I was anonymous and visible. And I was like, I started to get another kind of, you know, like, wait, I'm here. Hello, you know.

00:27:12.020 - 00:27:29.450

Now I'm invisible. And it's another culture shock. So that was kind of odd, in finishing high school that way. And I came back with awith a southern drawl. So I spoke with a little Texarkana accent, and everywhere when I say, “Hey,

00:27:29.450 - 00:27:38.570

how you doing, you know, which often to do?” And it was just really, like, people were like, what are you, you know, so I didn't fit in back in Oakland, until a friend finally said, you know, you got to Southern accent, that's

00:27:38.570 - 00:27:48.090

really weird, you know? And I'm like, “Oh, yeah, but to get rid of that,” you know, so I worked for a year or two to get rid of it. And so that was my high school.

00:27:48.180 - 00:28:05.150

And then, by that time, my mother was a single mother, my dad had passed away, and my two older brothers were out on their own doing stuff, you know, in Cali-in Oakland, and, you know, I realized that wow, you know, like, I realized a difficult this is when I

00:28:05.150 - 00:28:14.940

started to see my mother as a, as a, as an individual, and not the caring person, you know, the nurturing person, your mother is until you as the kid. And I

00:28:19.470 - 00:28:33.460

started to wonder about, you know, all the laws and culture and things that affected her, right, because she was isolated in Chinatown. She never had to learn English because of her community.

00:28:33.460 - 00:28:46.180

And when, when she moved to Texas, she basically worked again, isolated in the Chinese restaurant, never had to learn English and coming back, and thinking about the opportunities that were available to her as an immigrant who didn't speak English, we're

00:28:46.180 - 00:29:00.180

still going to be relegated to Chinatown. Sorry, I just have to look at this message, because it looks like it's from my family, that it's, it's okay. All right. So that's when I really

00:29:00.180 - 00:29:16.240

started to go, you know, I don't really know much about American history, you know, especially having just come from Texas, which I feel like the education and history was, you know, it was very

00:29:16.890 - 00:29:27.750

limited. Limiting. And then, and even, even in California, it was a little better. You know, in California, I think, I at least heard about the Japanese relocation

00:29:28.050 - 00:29:40.070

camps during World War Two in high school. And, and that was another things like, wait, that's all I get, you know, is this one little chapter or mentioned? No, it wasn't even a chapter with a mention about Japanese

00:29:40.070 - 00:29:51.460

American relocation camps and what happened during World War Two and there was no like, what but why, you know, there was none of that it was just the information. So as I started to ask these questions, it was like, you

00:29:51.460 - 00:30:05.840

know, like, what is my future here? You know, and again, my parents didn't push me like some other Asian Americans, you know, like, we are definitely not the model minority. You know, in my family, you know?

00:30:05.950 - 00:30:22.910

So-So I took it upon myself to just to live a little bit of life, you know, like I got into music and played in bands and got into art in my own way until I finally realized I couldn't do it without, with a limited education.

00:30:24.900 - 00:30:38.970

And then thanks to my middle brother, Paul, who, who, who was a high school dropout in Texas, you know, at that age, he was approaching as being a senior, and he just dropped out, you know, I totally understand why. But when he came

00:30:38.970 - 00:30:55.170

back, also, he realized he's got to get educated. So he took a GED, went to junior college, got a, got a Bachelor's from UC Berkeley, and then went and got a Master's from UCLA. But while he was doing that, he was basically, you know, trying to tell me that

00:30:55.170 - 00:31:06.750

I should go to school and it worked. You know, so I went to school, SF State, and my first day in the Asian American history class, it was like, that's the moment I became woke.

00:31:07.500 - 00:31:21.500

You know, that's when you start learning about laws that oppress people of color. And, and I thought, this is not critical race theory we're talking about, this is, these are just facts in history that's being taught, you know?

00:31:22.680 - 00:31:32.760

And, and I started to get so interested in Asian American history, because like, Where was I all this time? Where was this information? And I started to minor-I decided to minor in Asian

00:31:33.030 - 00:31:43.840

American history. But at the same time, I was doing an art degree because I thought in that that's what I really am passionate about is art. And music, you know, really wanted to play rock and roll, but rock and roll was

00:31:43.840 - 00:31:59.260

something that you don't study in college, you know, it's just the lifestyle. And, but art was something that you had to study, I think at the time at least. So, um, yeah, and, and thanks, you know, I recommend to everybody to go to

00:31:59.260 - 00:32:11.360

college unless you know what you're doing unless you have a better choice, you know, because college will basically expose you to all of this other pathways that you would not normally never be exposed to. And then you can decide what you want to do.

00:32:11.440 - 00:32:26.830

And in that all the different exposures, I learned about dance, modern dance and theatre, and which brought me to my career today, which is still very interdisciplinary in terms of music, theatre, acting, and activism.

00:32:28.880 - 00:32:38.640

Yeah, definitely. I'm wondering where your parents were, were your parents and your siblings supportive of your decision to pursue art? You kind of mentioned that they were kind of hands off in terms of what you wanted

00:32:38.640 - 00:32:47.200

to do, but I know-- Yeah. Yeah. My mother, my mother, you know, she was very supportive. I mean, she was just the best mother

00:32:47.260 - 00:32:57.280

ever, in terms of, are you happy? Are you working hard? You know, well, here, eat up. So you know, like, she was so nurturing, she was just the best Chinese mother.

00:32:57.670 - 00:33:07.780

I mean, you know, you know, the best mother, best uneducated mother, because she was she didn't, she wasn't able to share guidance in terms of like, what, what are you studying? You know, and what are you?

00:33:07.860 - 00:33:16.090

What's your GPA? And what are you doing? Do you know, are you going to go on to study to get a terminal degree or, you know, like, there was none of that in her world at all.

00:33:16.490 - 00:33:28.950

Right, she knew how to be a really good mother in terms of cooking and taking care of, and so I valued that and the love that she imparted. So she was so encouraging. And I would say it's the foundation of everything I do is that kind of

00:33:29.060 - 00:33:42.210

love, you know, because it's empathy. It's compassion that you have other people that you share with others. So regardless of whether it's something that helps in the career or not, it informs all aspects of one's life is, you know,

00:33:42.250 - 00:33:56.550

the parenting, right, the support and parenting that you get, that comes from love, simply just love and nurturing. But as I mentioned, from my middle brother, Paul, I got a lot of encouragement from him in terms of like, you

00:33:56.550 - 00:34:05.970

know, you should study art, you should study the philosophy of art, you know, when you go to an art gallery, what are these people talking about? Can you talk at their level? Can you talk about art history?

00:34:05.970 - 00:34:18.330

Can you talk about philosophy? Can you talk about forms, you know, all of this stuff in theory, and then was like, “Oh, yeah, I know nothing about that,” you know, you know, you know, I knew how to draw and paint what I like, but I don't know, I

00:34:18.330 - 00:34:29.370

didn't know where it came from, how I was influenced the systems I wanted to be involved with, where I was going to take it. So it was like, yeah, I need to be educated, you know. And if you don't find a mentor, you know, I

00:34:29.670 - 00:34:44.050

think why don’t you go to school for it, so I had a lot of good direction encouragement from my brother, middle brother, Paul, from my older brother. You know, Peter, also a lot of love a lot of you know, big brother energy, you know, what do you need? You know, what do you want me to get for you?

00:34:44.050 - 00:34:57.130

What do you need, you know, it's like, it's all great, you know, but he, he didn't go to college, he graduated from high school and he went into the civil servant, civil service, became a firefighter. So he became a firefighter.

00:34:57.200 - 00:35:11.890

Yeah, it was his life's career until he retired and a lot of good energy from him in terms of being that traditional big brother, that I think you know that Confucianism taught him to take care of your younger brothers, you know, so I got that

00:35:12.000 - 00:35:22.670

from him, you know, and a lot of love also. So from the family, I would say that I was extremely lucky just to have gotten that fundamental

00:35:22.670 - 00:35:38.360

support of familial love. Yeah, that's really important, especially for I feel like anybody pursuing a career in art, it's so difficult I feel. I feel completely complete, nope, nobody supports it.

00:35:38.460 - 00:35:51.720

Unless your parents are artists, I think then they understand that. Like, for example, my, I have a teenager now who's also an artist just graduated from high school this year going to an art school.

00:35:52.320 - 00:36:08.860

And I actually was trying to talk him out of it. You know, I was like, are you sure you want to, you know, do art because it's not going to be a place where you're ever going to feel financial support, really, you know, and, you know, most of society will never really

00:36:08.900 - 00:36:23.280

understand what you're doing, you know, but I could tell you, from my experience, you shouldn't look to, you know, the monetary gains as a way of measuring your success, you know, to you as an artist, it’s what you're saying, your process. And

00:36:23.280 - 00:36:34.450

whether you're helping the world, you know, there are many other philosophies to do art, of course, but if you're going to do it with that way, a lot of society, society will not understand you. And so, you know, you're always

00:36:34.490 - 00:36:47.650

gonna have to defend yourself and what you do. Are you ready for life of that, but you know I realize he's 17. And I did a lot of growing up and learning and changing by the time I was 17, and 18, 19, when I graduated, and even,

00:36:48.250 - 00:37:02.860

even throughout my career, that my philosophy about what I do has changed. So yeah. Yeah, definitely. What were some of the challenges you faced, in college or in your career with

00:37:02.860 - 00:37:23.000

regards to your decision to become an artist? I think that the main challenge was that the education system, the university system did not prepare me to understand the work that lays

00:37:23.000 - 00:37:35.600

before you when you graduate, of being an artist. I think if you're in business, or you know, engineering and medicine, there are pathways and you continue on. It’s pretty clear, it's pretty clear

00:37:35.600 - 00:37:49.230

how you can continue on as a doctor or lawyer and things like that. But as an artist, there's really no pathway to what, what is, because there's no one goal of what success is. I mean you could look at many different kinds of

00:37:49.230 - 00:38:03.310

artists and within what their definition of success is going to be different. And it's not really some, some is based on money is whether they become self-supporting, financially stable, and that's one way of measuring success, but

00:38:03.310 - 00:38:19.510

it's not really, it's certainly not the only way. And it shouldn't be the only way that you may measure successes as an artist. So I felt like those professors in my art department, although they were great artists, and great teachers, also

00:38:19.510 - 00:38:31.600

didn't understand how to prepare me for all the unknowns that face an artist and well they themselves are teachers in the university system now. So that's where they ended up and that's how they make a living.

00:38:32.010 - 00:38:44.930

But there are so many other ways and since I graduated, there are more, more ways to make a living as, being successful and ways of being an artist with you know, social media, Instagram, TikTok and people making money off

00:38:44.970 - 00:38:56.350

that. All these young artists are eschewing a formal education and arts because they can make more money being a Tik-Tok artists, whatever that means, you know, and gain more notoriety,

00:38:56.350 - 00:39:11.010

reputation, effect more of the culture than ever before through the platform on TikTok and Instagram, more than ever before then a gallery artists in the 80’s or 90’s, showing and galleries and getting the books, getting their works printed in books.

00:39:11.530 - 00:39:25.400

So these young artists have already surpassed that criteria in terms of exposure and notoriety or reputation, and even probably making money. So-so it's taking apart that older system of the

00:39:26.140 - 00:39:37.960

hierarchy of how art is made. So I think the obstacle was basically not enough information. And I don't know if that's something that you have, you can hold the one institution

00:39:38.020 - 00:39:52.330

responsible for because I think when you look at society now there are so many ways to get information and that we you know, whether it's from your parents, mentors, a peer group, friends, co-workers, a boss, TikTok

00:39:52.410 - 00:40:06.870

Instagram, social media, there's so many ways to grow and get informed and educated and decide what's good for you in your path. We can't really lay it all on let’s say for example the

00:40:06.870 - 00:40:21.290

institution or your parents, and blame it on them and say they didn't teach me properly, it's like, because they're limited, you know, everybody's limited. Everybody can only share what they think is important at the moment. In that particular culture, you know, five

00:40:21.290 - 00:40:34.830

years down the road is going to be different. And so some of those who are lucky, and I think I was one of them, where I had my foot in Asian American study, so I understood history and activism. And then I had my foot in the

00:40:34.890 - 00:40:49.320

fine arts, which really understood a kind of a non, a more abstract language and understanding of the world, and music, which is also abstract. And then theater, you know, which is a very community based, so I have my foot in

00:40:49.320 - 00:41:01.620

a lot of different forms, and then those things informed me of my world, which, you know, is a conglomeration of all these different forms that are usually very disparate for, for other people. And that allowed me to sort of look at

00:41:01.620 - 00:41:15.730

and question which, which system did I want to engage in and become successful in? And then that allowed me to also question what is success, if it's only success in one system?

00:41:16.910 - 00:41:33.840

But it's eschewed from another system? You know, so it's, it's really like, just, I think, I think education, the obstacle towards education is all around us, and that we should not, we should, I guess it's just very limited.

00:41:33.840 - 00:41:44.030

And it's like, how does one know that they should look all over the place and take information from everywhere, everywhere as part of education, and not just from your parents and the university system.

00:41:45.930 - 00:41:57.330

Yeah, definitely, with the advancements of like, the internet and technology a lot, there's a lot more information available to everybody wants to pursue something different from like the mainstream I guess. How you choose to live your life.

00:41:57.720 - 00:42:09.780

You know, all those models, like, you know, how do you choose who you choose to love, how you choose to live your life, what is success? Where do you live your life? And what kind of home, two car garage that you know, that two car garage, white picket

00:42:09.840 - 00:42:21.980

fence is so far removed out from what is reality or the goal for Americans? You know, the American dream? I think it's something else now. Yeah, definitely. Um, I'm curious, what is your definition of success?

00:42:22.110 - 00:42:29.780

Because you’ve brought it up a couple times, what do you consider to be successful, and if it's like, towards a certain career, or like the involvement of different systems you mentioned?

00:42:31.750 - 00:42:47.350

I think my, my idea of success is being free. Being free from pressures of conforming to a job, or

00:42:48.560 - 00:43:01.500

practice that you personally have never questioned. So success is when you're able to understand enough about philosophy and life and be able to survive at some level of comfort, that

00:43:02.200 - 00:43:20.520

does not hurt anyone, that does not enslave or oppress another. So I think I mean, I think that that kind of success is an everyday question. Well, I hope it does.

00:43:21.620 - 00:43:33.990

Because I, you know, like, I questioned that a lot. Because it's like, well, you know, when my kids get out of, out of the home, I mean, they're on their own, you know, I hope that I gave them enough tools to understand how to be happy.

00:43:34.250 - 00:43:48.940

I mean, I'll always be their father and always impress philo-- give them share philosophy when they asked, but, but I'm, but I don't feel like I'm the person that needs to go into a 30 year, you know, loan to, to own a house

00:43:48.940 - 00:44:03.250

so that they can always come home, so that I'm enslaved to that kind of, you know, until I'm 85, or whatever. So it's like, that's not success to me-success to me. So it's like, that could be really weird to someone else who has sort of taken

00:44:03.250 - 00:44:15.690

that and been indoctrinated into the American dream. You know, it's like, wait, you don't want to provide a home for your family? It's like, well, you know, I do but home is not a place where I'm, you know, took out a 30 year loan, you know, home is

00:44:15.690 - 00:44:28.010

something else. Yeah, definitely. Um, so I kind of want to touch on your like different careers or different involvements in the community and kind of started with acting. Pursuing an acting career is like, very difficult.

00:44:28.410 - 00:44:41.370

From what I understand. I feel like, especially for an Asian American, even one who grew up in the United States can kind of describe how you started in, like, how you got your next role every time and how would you? Like would you

00:44:41.730 - 00:44:55.120

describe your success to luck or mentorship or like kind of, how do you how did you become such a successful actor? I could write a book, actually, I could write a book about all of that. So I'm not trying to fit it into something

00:44:55.120 - 00:45:12.250

succinct. I well, you know, like, as I just said, I was studying visual arts. But-But while in school at San Francisco State I saw a play by Philip Congleton called “Yankee Dawg You Die.” And it was about Asian stereotypes in

00:45:12.250 - 00:45:30.410

Hollywood. And you know, I was sitting in the theater, and it was the Asian American Repertory Theatre Company in San Francisco, 1986, or 7. And Sab Shimono was one of the actors and Kelvin Han Yee, he was one of the actors, I remember sitting in the audience going, that looks pretty cool, what

00:45:30.410 - 00:45:40.190

these guys are doing, you know, I'm just in a theater, in a studio with paint on a canvas. And, you know, I'm discovering what it's like to dance actually, I'd been taking dance classes in this.

00:45:40.570 - 00:45:52.050

And so being social is actually quite cool, working on the dance with other people and collaborating and feeling the energy, you know, being on the same boat with people, you know, is actually quite cool.

00:45:52.050 - 00:46:04.350

And then when I saw that play, I went, I want to do what they're doing, because they're telling a story about Chinese Americans and Asian Americans that's, that's important. You know, and, and they're affecting me in this audience.

00:46:04.350 - 00:46:15.970

They're talking to me, you know, will my paintings ever do that? Well, I do the kind of paintings that's going to show in a gallery or theater that's going to reach people and say,“See, this is cool, right? What I'm doing is cool!”

00:46:16.270 - 00:46:33.790

I say, I don't know, paintings are gonna do that for me, you know, so I went, that was one of those lightbulb moments and one of those, you know, woke moments. And yeah, but the same time, I saw a play by one of my mentors, Fred Ho, jazz musician, who, who was an

00:46:34.180 - 00:46:50.060

activist, and who did activism through his music, and he had a band called the Afro-Asian art ensemble, and it was about uniting blacks and Asians. This was the 80’s, right way before his time, you know, and, and Fred, unfortunately, passed away of cancer

00:46:50.060 - 00:47:00.180

about 10 years ago, but I you know, these days, I've been asking where is Fred? We need someone like Fred now, you know, because he was with this black Asian solidarity.

00:47:00.180 - 00:47:14.680

You know, the time when the Gracie Bogs, and Yuri Kochiyama was also, you know, he was up that generation, or shortly after, and I was like, man, these people were doing it before, you know, before, before now, and we need them as ancestors

00:47:17.090 - 00:47:30.530

whose shoulders we stand on. So I saw Fred Ho’s “Not a Chinaman's Chance” about the building of the railroads. And then the musicians were black and Chinese playing jazz instruments, you know, saxophones and

00:47:30.530 - 00:47:42.430

clarinets, with the Chinese erhu, you know, and the, the guzheng. You know, chimed in, I was like, man, that is so cool, right performance, performing, putting your body in front of people representing with your body.

00:47:43.470 - 00:47:55.410

That's what I wanted to. So, um, that was around ‘86 or ‘87. And seeing Fred, you know, Asian American Theatre Company, and then Jenny Lim poet in

00:47:55.410 - 00:48:08.200

San Francisco, also talking, you know, using her poetry and, and then seeing Wayne Wang's early films that were just coming out, Chan Is Missing. And one of the films that

00:48:09.860 - 00:48:23.610

Dimsum-Dimsum was starring my teacher at SF State, Lorraine Chu, Lorraine, to she was an actress in Dim Sum. And then she was a teacher in our Chinese American Communities class.

00:48:23.720 - 00:48:31.010

And she was so cool, right. And she was also an activist. And she was like, you know, you know, we got a story to tell. And we have to be vocal about this, right.

00:48:31.540 - 00:48:48.000

And about that time, I started to see like what the Chinese students had done, or not just Chinese, but the Chinese, African-African black students in the third world, I think was called the third world liberation students did to

00:48:48.000 - 00:49:02.110

demonstrate and fight and picket it to make the ethnic studies department at SF State in the late 60’s. So they picketed for months, they got beat up by cops, they struck. And finally, the Asian American Studies major within

00:49:02.810 - 00:49:14.090

the Ethnic Studies Department was declared, as I learned about all the struggles of people of color, and the solidarity that was necessary to make things happen, you know, because we can't do this alone, right? We need all

00:49:14.090 - 00:49:27.480

of us in agreement, with a shared goal. And that goal is to get educated, you know, to get proper education. And if we're paying the universities for it, then you guys have to give us teachers who can actually teach us to give us

00:49:27.540 - 00:49:38.800

this impart this education. So I think I was, you know, lucky that that I chose SF State instead of art school because I had a chance to go to art school. And that's when I was like, discouraging my son to go to art school.

00:49:38.820 - 00:49:49.640

So what are you gonna be limited in the kind of classes you can take, I wandered off into Asian American Studies, changed my world, you know, but I think that he's actually in a place where he can actually take school classes from another

00:49:49.640 - 00:50:04.580

college that's like a sister college. So umI'm going to strongly encourage him to take classes outside of this discipline. And again, it goes back to being, being around the right people around the right vocal people.

00:50:05.280 - 00:50:22.240

And so, so that kind of fire from activism and understanding that my, my history comes from being oppressed. And the fact that my mother never was forced to learn English, not forced, but never had the opportunity to learn English

00:50:22.240 - 00:50:32.400

was because she was forced into Chinatown and people were all forced to live in Chinatown. And, hey, it's comfortable in Chinatown, you don't have to leave, just keep speaking Chinese and, and then your jobs will be

00:50:32.400 - 00:50:42.780

limited, limited and your, you know, economic growth will be limited, and you'll be stuck next to a very impoverished black community. That's okay, you guys stay where you are, you know, and so you start to realize how the

00:50:42.780 - 00:50:54.500

government appeases you in certain ways, and it gives you gives your community a little bit to sustain itself and say, you guys are doing well, where you are, you don't need to reach out, you know. So you start to see things like that, you know, that's very

00:50:54.500 - 00:51:08.720

kind of like, you know, microaggression, or not microaggression, that's not the right term, but it's just confusing. You know, it confuses the community in terms of like, you’re good where you are with support you where you are, you know, and you're the modern the minority.

00:51:08.720 - 00:51:21.440

Anyway, you know, everybody wants to be like you anyway. So don't worry, you know, you're doing fine. So, so what, right when it when I graduated from college, and went to set, I realized that by that time, I wanted to

00:51:21.480 - 00:51:37.470

be a musician, I wanted to be an actor, I wanted to do visual arts, and I want, and I wanted to be an activist, it's like, San Francisco just was a little too small for me. And so I moved to New York City to see like, where the big kids played, you know, wanted to see what the ocean was like, because I was just swimming

00:51:37.470 - 00:51:49.530

in a pond. Not that I was a big deal in the pond at all, you know, I was just curious, you know, just really curious about, you know, if I was to challenge myself on being educated, I need to get out of my comfort

00:51:49.530 - 00:52:03.560

zone and be where there's way more information. And yeah, when I got to New York City, it was just, you know, I was overloaded by them, you're, you know, you know, there's a lot of European thought and influencing Arts in New York City that wasn't regional

00:52:03.560 - 00:52:16.240

like California. And, you know, Asia, also, where California with Asian American, New York City with Asia. You know, you had Japanese artists, Chinese artists, Taiwanese artists, you know, Thai artists, Cambodian artists, and

00:52:16.240 - 00:52:29.980

these people who were like, part of the Diaspora and not necessarily not Asian American, like they were in California, California is Asian American identity was pretty solid, in a sense that we understand our shared history

00:52:30.210 - 00:52:43.360

as oppressed Asians in America, that's our identity. And if you adopt that identity, you were politically aware, that label or understanding of the label did not exist in New York City. Asian Americans could be anything.

00:52:43.680 - 00:52:58.030

And even in California, you could be anything. But in New York City, Asian Americans could be just, if you're living in Asia, in America, and you're Asian, that major Asian American, whereas, you know, in my older definition, not

00:52:58.030 - 00:53:09.700

unless you identify with a political movement, are you Asian American, you know, but I understand that it's quite open. And I'm not the gatekeeper for that. So anybody who considers themselves Asian Americans areAsian

00:53:09.700 - 00:53:22.250

Americans, and even those who don't consider themselves Asian Americans are Asian Americans, you know. So, um, so it's, so when I got to New York City, I just wanted to dance and do music. And I tried to get an Artist's

00:53:22.250 - 00:53:37.210

Loft going, and I was auditioning, you know, to be in bands, and I was auditioning to be in dance, and because I was, you know, really into modern dance and ballet at the time. And I realized, man, I just can't do it all and work

00:53:37.660 - 00:53:54.250

and pay the rent. You know, like, it's very quickly, I realize everybody's working to pay their rent in New York City. So I am, I was lucky that I saw an ad that was looking for-- This was after six months of auditioning, I was

00:53:54.250 - 00:54:07.810

like, man, I must really suck because I didn't get anything. You know. There was an ad in the Village Voice looking for Chinese American performers. You know, plus, if you speak Chinese, modern dance, theater, music,

00:54:07.960 - 00:54:20.860

you know, come and audition, I went, “Wow, that's-that’sfor me. If I don't get that I must really suck,” you know. And so I auditioned, and I got a part. And not only did I get a part, I got a big part, you know, they wanted me to

00:54:20.900 - 00:54:32.670

read, they wanted me to act. And I was like, you know, I've not you know, I haven't really acted professionally. I spoke on stage in California, but I wouldn't call that like professional acting. And, you know, of course, I didn't

00:54:32.670 - 00:54:43.820

tell them that, you know, they just cast me, I'm going to do it. You know, I've got to start. I've got to learn how to act quickly. So anyway, as we rehearsed, you know, I'm reading the script, and you know, and the writer was like, “Oh, wait,

00:54:44.410 - 00:54:54.140

are you an actor?” I went, well, you know, to performance art. I did some acting. They went, “Oh, okay, I get it. All right. You got here on your raw talent. I get it. You're not really formally trained.

00:54:54.620 - 00:55:08.050

So let's see what we can do with that.” So luckily for him, Joel Bassin and that he was a he knew how to work with me to get natural media. And so that was my first speaking professional role in New York City in

00:55:08.050 - 00:55:18.160

Atlanta. And it opened one year that day I moved to New York, which was amazing. So but you know, so it took me a year, I opened a show in downtown New York, I was like one of the leads.

00:55:18.960 - 00:55:32.520

And then people saw me that, you know, other theatre companies like Pan-Asian Rep, Ping Chong, that was lucky that Fred Ho, I mean, it's amazing, Fred Ho, the composer I mentioned earlier, composed the score for this production.

00:55:32.540 - 00:55:43.330

So I met Fred and said, “Oh, my God, I heard you your production, “Not a Chinaman’s Chance,” it changed my life. And actually, I'm here and I'm working with you. It's amazing. And he's like, “Don't worry about it, you know, we'll do a lot of work

00:55:43.360 - 00:55:56.030

together.” You know, and, and it was he took me under his wings. So Fred put me in, in his other operas, and his other plays, and he took me on tour. And he mentored me, in terms of like, what it takes to be an artist, it's a

00:55:56.030 - 00:56:06.690

lot of hard work, you know, you have to be so dedicated to, to your intention is your, you know, to what, what are you saying, you know, make sure you're clear in what you're saying, with your art.

00:56:07.510 - 00:56:19.760

You know, because you're going to spend all this time stressing and you're gonna get attacked with about your art, you're going to make sure you believe in your art, because people are going to rip you apart. You know. And I learned a lot from watching Fred and Pan Asian Rep and Ping Chong.

00:56:19.920 - 00:56:31.790

Yeah, there are very critical reviews coming out in the New York Times, you know about your work. And if you aren't really solid about what you're doing and saying, you know, it can end you, you know, can make or break you.

00:56:32.670 - 00:56:43.760

So, I would say that Tisa Chang , you know, was it was the second production I got, and that historical, you know, Theatre Company, the oldest Asian American Theatre Company in New York City.

00:56:44.690 - 00:56:54.480

I was, again, fortunate. And you know, when you went earlier, you asked if I was lucky, or to get into these roles, I think, I think luck has a part of it.

00:56:54.680 - 00:57:09.660

But also, the other part of it is preparation, and perseverance, and determination. So I knew that I was going to give it all I got to New York City, I didn't know how long I was going to stay.

00:57:10.330 - 00:57:21.310

That was 30 years ago, I'm still here. So it was like, I didn't know I was just, I just, you know, I just had to give it all I got. And I was like, oh, wow, Tisa Chang from

00:57:22.310 - 00:57:34.200

PanAsian Rep, invited me to audition for next show. Right after that, that means that's big. I've read about that in my history class as big. And so you know, I went from working with Fred Ho, to Tisa Chang and then Ping

00:57:34.200 - 00:57:48.640

Chong, you know, who came comes from a very experimental background who was a collaborator with Meredith Monk, and three now, I would say five years ago received the purple Medal of Honor from President Obama, you

00:57:48.640 - 00:58:06.360

know, for being this this amazing cultural artifact, you know, not artifact, artist, for America, like, so, his was a third production I worked with, and I thought I was extremely lucky. I thought I was extremely lucky to have put myself right there to be seen, and

00:58:06.360 - 00:58:18.690

to have people invite me into the work. But then I hear about people afterwards, now, in hindsight, when they say, “Oh, when we saw you, you-you stuck out,” you know, so it's okay, so it's not just luck

00:58:18.860 - 00:58:31.580

is preparation at work, you really have to put yourself on the front line and say, “I’m the one you want, I'm the one that's going to make this play, this play,” you know, I don't know that that was really, I even really had that much experience, but it was more like

00:58:31.690 - 00:58:42.540

just, you know, ignorance, and probably like, tenacity, you know, like, I just came from San Francisco, I'm gonna make it or break it, you know. So it was probably that tenacity that got me in the door.

00:58:42.880 - 00:58:55.630

More than talent, I would say definitely more than talent, because I learned along the way that I knew very little compared to other people. And that so as I learned how to act, as I learned how to dance and do performance art, I saw that, wow,

00:58:55.800 - 00:59:06.380

this is a constant learning experience in life. Because just because I graduated from college doesn't mean I know anything at all, it's just the beginning. It's like the Japanese when you get your black belt, it's

00:59:06.380 - 00:59:18.110

just the beginning of your study. And then you have 10 years and 10 other levels of black belt. So I would say that even now as I'm, as I got-got into my foot into the theater, and I started learning more.

00:59:19.130 - 00:59:32.080

You know, I learned you know, quickly that I don't have that many skills, there's a lot a lot to learn. Because there are different styles of theater, different styles of film, different styles of acting. So what is it you want to do?

00:59:32.660 - 00:59:42.110

You know, I'm not-I'm never going to be a Shakespearean actor, because that's not what I want to do. I don't want to be trained that way either. Those are not the stories I want to tell. I mean, I learned that pretty quickly early on, you

00:59:42.110 - 00:59:53.030

know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's not for me. I'm not gonna you know, but I do want to know, still want to know what Kelvin Han Yee and Sab Shimono was on in that play.

00:59:53.820 - 01:00:04.590

You know what they were doing Philip Congleton on the stage. And then when I saw you know, the Joy Luck Club came after-after I moved to New York and I said I want to know what Wei Wang is doing. Want to know what those actors are doing?

01:00:04.590 - 01:00:17.060

What isRussell Wong doing? You know? What is Daniel-- Dennis Dun doing in- in Big Trouble in Little China? You know, like, he made the super

01:00:17.180 - 01:00:32.160

amazing film, you know. And he was a great character, great actors like, like, I didn't have that kind of training. You know, like, I couldn't bring the stage experience to that very different technique. But eventually, I learned and

01:00:32.160 - 01:00:44.460

I got into, you know, I had kids, I dropped out, I dropped out, you know, dropped out of acting to raise the kids at home. And then when they were a little old enough, and I wanted to come back into acting, I went, I want to now

01:00:44.620 - 01:00:58.160

my time to pursue film and television, because if I'm going to go back to the stage, or do acting, I need to bring in some income, because I have two, like, I have a family now. And so I, I pursued film and television and learn the

01:00:58.160 - 01:01:12.460

craft of that and started auditioning for that. And maybe it was luck. But I got hired on jobs, you know, and I, and once people saw me and I got hired on other jobs, and I think I was just, you know,

01:01:13.060 - 01:01:26.900

yeah, it, I would say, you know, just, just to make this segment, which could be a book is, a lot of it is about timing, luck, but you have to be ready when that timing and luck strikes.

01:01:27.880 - 01:01:45.470

Yeah, exactly. So kind of, as an actor, or as an Asian American actor, I feel like there's a lot of stereotypical roles that are typically cast in like TV and movies and films. And you're often cast as like a bad Asian father, like,

01:01:45.720 - 01:01:56.080

can you kind of share some of your thoughts about playing such a character? And like, how do you feel it kind of plays into stereotypes and maybe the activism in you, how do you feel about kind of those characters and stereotypes?

01:01:57.410 - 01:02:12.810

Right. So you know, when I was trying to get into theater, and even earlier on, I heard a talk it after a film screening, I think it's San Francisco Film Festival, and Kelvin Han Yee was one of the

01:02:12.810 - 01:02:23.830

speakers and Dennis Dun, I think, was one of the speakers, a lot of people from the Asian American Theatre Company, were speaking about those things, you know, like, what happens when you get, as an Asian American

01:02:23.830 - 01:02:34.130

actor, what happens when you get a stereotypical role? What do you do with it? Do you do the job? Because it's so important for us to get a job. If you don't get the job, you can't move on, you know?

01:02:34.650 - 01:02:50.080

And if you get a job, that's stereotypical, what do you do with it? And at that time, one of the actors I wish I could remember who said, well, it's, it's our job to make those characters better. So if you take the job, then you have to make that

01:02:50.080 - 01:03:04.480

character better, and you have to fight in the room. And, you know, I remember that, that stayed with me, because it's not easy to fight in the room when there's money. Those people have money, and they're the ones giving you the job.

01:03:04.480 - 01:03:14.270

It's like fighting your employer to hire you. You know, like, “No, we just need you to wash the dishes.” It's like, “No, but I need this kind of scrubber. I need this bleach I need—“ They're like, no, there's a lot of people that's going to do

01:03:14.270 - 01:03:24.210

the job without all the things you need, you know, and they're, they're not going to hire you, you know. So it's like figuring out how, how once your foot is in the door, how do you talk to these people?

01:03:24.590 - 01:03:34.700

How do you get them on your side? How do you say that role actually will be better for your story? If you played it out this way? You know, it'd be funnier for us and

01:03:34.700 - 01:03:46.650

them, if you played it out this way, as opposed to just funny on us. You know what, so that we're not the joke. But, you know, like Big Trouble in Little China, for example, some people can say that film has stereotypes.

01:03:47.590 - 01:04:00.470

Other people will see beyond the tropes, go man, they just ripped apart those stereotypes because now I see the actor, I see those characters, I see the stories. I see the humanity in that actor, you know, because somehow that,

01:04:00.470 - 01:04:13.190

that film did it right. You know, the white director, and they made the-the lead crew know, what is his name? Yeah, his name escapes my, they made him the butt of all the jokes.

01:04:13.480 - 01:04:27.270

And that made the Asians more intelligent, and the you know, and so that word, they realize, Wow, that's a really good film, and it's still, you know, still stands up to the test of time in terms of how they sort of flipped the stereotypes in their

01:04:27.270 - 01:04:42.010

narratives with the trope. And so, what you just said about how does it feel to play like a stereotype of a bad dad? I would say that, um, is it a stereotype, you

01:04:42.170 - 01:04:54.720

know, that I'm playing? Or is it a trope that I take apart? You know, because it's a stereotype if it states in one place, right? That only serves one storyline. And this there's a storyline of the the narrator-narrator.

01:04:56.850 - 01:05:10.580

But some some bad father like in-in “Warrior” is fighting white supremacy. Killing white people. What does that say about the stereotype? You know, I, you know, a lot of people I

01:05:10.580 - 01:05:26.130

agree sees the trope, and they can't see farther than that. So others go, “oh my god, you know, you're such a badass and you just changed—” I had, you know, the best compliment was that I had Chinese guys and non-Chinese guys come

01:05:26.130 - 01:05:36.620

up to me and says, watching you talk to your son, Yong Joon, it's like watching my father talk to me. I've never had that on TV. So I would say that, yes, I took a trope.

01:05:36.990 - 01:05:52.790

And-and I would say that also the credit goes to the writers because the writers didn't write a trope, write a stereotype; they used a trope, but we use that trope to dismantle the stereotype, because at the end, that trope was-is much bigger.

01:05:53.280 - 01:06:10.120

I mean, the character of Father Jun, we're talking about worried it's much bigger than what the stereotype or trope was. And we deconstructed it, you know, in theoretically, so we could say, “See that we took that apart, but we got you, you know, we got you in that we

01:06:10.120 - 01:06:22.990

hooked you.” And it was to address that continuing on into another father, you know, which Boogie it's, it's, you know, you can ask whether Eddie Huang wrote a stereotype, you know, or not.

01:06:24.160 - 01:06:38.490

I would say he didn't, because he based it on his father and his father was a badass. His father, you know, his complaint about, you know, I'm not gonna say anything bad about, you know, Fresh Off the Boat or any of the actors, but Eddie's complaint was that they

01:06:38.490 - 01:06:51.130

made his family like a joke, a comedy, you know, so he didn't want his father, his father was not bad. Father was not a clown, you know, his father was tough. You know, so like, this is our chance to show a

01:06:51.610 - 01:07:04.110

tough Asian dad, you know, so if that best fit into what people think of as a stereotype, I will say that you guys missed the point, the whole film, you know, the film is not taught by white people using an Asian family stereotypes.

01:07:04.630 - 01:07:20.130

This is a, you know, a Taiwanese story whose writer had-had a badass dad. And, yeah, so I guess, you know, if you're talking about those two films, I would say that, you know, we, we, they

01:07:20.130 - 01:07:33.770

can we can, while some may see a stereotype, they can exist in a different universe, for example, there's a lot of bad dads in movies in China, and Hong Kong and Taiwan, you know, and you can't say those are stereotypes,

01:07:34.410 - 01:07:48.430

because they just are those roles. And those are the those people and, and the stories are quite dimensional. There's an arc. There's a catharsis, there's a movement of emotions, they went

01:07:48.450 - 01:08:00.440

from one place to another in the story. Narratively and emotionally. So stereotypes sit flat. So um, yeah, so I don't know if I clarified that comment.

01:08:00.560 - 01:08:16.220

But um, yeah, I played fathers and badass fathers and other things. Because, because I can't play a wimpy father. Because I can't play the joke father, the father that people are going to laugh at.

01:08:16.220 - 01:08:30.600

And it's because growing up and seeing the stereotypes and seeing the emasculated Chinese man in Hollywood, you're either you know, and that's true of every ethnic stereotyping from Hollywood, is that you're going to have the

01:08:30.680 - 01:08:46.380

villain and you're gonna have the servant. So you have the, in African American, Black culture, you have the Sambos, the fetchit, the Butler, or you have the slave escaped slave, you know, that's threatening to white women.

01:08:46.990 - 01:08:56.370

And same with Latino culture, you know, the indigenous people, you know, they have Geronimo, you know, or they have the Tonto, you know, who serves the Lone Ranger.

01:08:57.180 - 01:09:11.020

In Chinese culture, you had Fu Manchu, or you have Hop Sing, serves the Cartwrights, you know, the white family. So, so what that's telling people of color, is that do you, as an ethnic

01:09:11.020 - 01:09:29.140

person, want to be seen as a bad guy in our culture? Or would you serve us, you know, as a servant? And that's, that's something that's represent— Hollywood representation does, shapes our sensibilities and our ideas and

01:09:29.720 - 01:09:44.480

our ideas of who we are without us knowing. You know, and that's the power of Hollywood and the insidiousness of Hollywood. And so, if I was to fall into one of the two, I do not want to perpetuate the weaker Chinese emasculated

01:09:45.170 - 01:09:57.550

stereotype, and I'm going to be the one that's going to be threatening, you know, at least that one, that one is empowered. Yeah, you know, I would rather the Asian stereotype if I was going to be stuck in a stereotype, they

01:09:57.550 - 01:10:11.570

would be the empowered one. But when I'm seeing when I look at these roles, I see them not as stereotypes, I see them as just tropes that are still trying to figure out how to change. Because these writers today are writing much

01:10:11.570 - 01:10:24.810

better, much better than before. So it's-it would be the actors’ inability to get out of the stereotype these days more than it is the writers I think, because I think the writers give us a lot more room,

01:10:25.150 - 01:10:37.760

although they still are tight. I think that the actors really have to, like, see it as an opportunity to break out of the stereotypes and go, “Oh, I see you wrote it, kind of like a trope and stereotype because that's just the ghost of

01:10:37.800 - 01:10:49.810

Hollywood. But it's like this, isn't it? It's more like this.” And I had to do that in several shows. And, and the directors were, “Oh, yeah.” You know, and they realize, “Oh, we shot it the way it's written.

01:10:49.810 - 01:10:56.320

It could be kind of bad on us. We could look bad. We don't want to look bad, right? The director doesn't want to look bad.

01:10:56.320 - 01:11:06.650

The director didn't write it.” But you're talking to the director on the set. And he's the one directing you, you know, so so it's, we have we have agency; actors have

01:11:06.720 - 01:11:17.460

agency. It's our face up there. We have power. And I think that it's up to us to understand and not be afraid to use it. Yes, that's really inspiring.

01:11:19.370 - 01:11:33.700

Yeah, before we move on to your career in music, I guess, would you mind if we take like a two minute break? All right, just to get some water, and then we'll be right back. I’ll pause the recording. Yeah, I just kind of really wanted to

01:11:34.780 - 01:11:48.460

appreciate the fact that you mentioned that there might be tropes that still exist in Asian Americans in acting and like in different characters, but kind of up to the actor or actress to kind of fight for a more diverse and more

01:11:48.940 - 01:12:02.670

multi-layered, dimensional character to empower more Asian Americans. And to kind of fight against the stereotypes, like you mentioned, and not just be a flat character. So yeah, really inspiring.

01:12:04.100 - 01:12:17.520

Thanks. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're just trailing African and Black Americans, you know, Black Americans dealt with this in the 60s and 70s. And they created their own, you know, industry, and, you know, and they can because they have the numbers.

01:12:17.520 - 01:12:33.080

So Asian Americans are quite small, percentage wise and, and, but I don't think that we should be afraid of not selling tickets like Hollywood, I think of Asian American film festivals, and our Asian American stars, AAPI stars on YouTube,

01:12:35.250 - 01:12:51.310

and TikTok are actually making a dent in changing our, our views in society. And, yeah, we should just do more of it. Because, you know, I think, especially today, we're

01:12:51.310 - 01:13:03.200

seeing how much Hollywood understands and hears us, we're no longer actually silent. And we've never been signed that we just weren't given the microphone, or we were muzzled. You know, muffled and muzzled. So a lot

01:13:03.200 - 01:13:17.150

of writers are seeing that they can't write like that anymore. You know, and some-some of those who aren't seeing it are fully on board as soon as you tell them. Yeah, yeah, that's really, it's really good to hear.

01:13:18.000 - 01:13:30.720

And I guess, kind of moving on to your music career. You mentioned that when you're in Texas, you got into rock and roll. And you kind of continued with music into college. But I know now you're interested in flute making?

01:13:31.110 - 01:13:48.430

And I'm kind of curious, like, how did that kind of transition from rock and roll and go into like, kind of a traditional instrument? Well, I, you know, I was born and I was, I would say I was born or indoctrinated into Western popular music,

01:13:48.860 - 01:14:03.570

you know, rock and roll, pop music, Top 40 music as a kid, I remember the 70’s soul groups on Top 40, I mean, were like some of the music I still love, you know. And so it was easy to see the black influence of

01:14:04.210 - 01:14:19.410

popular culture, soul into rock and roll and blues, you know, from blues into rock and roll. And so a lot of my love of rock and roll was actually at the roots of rock and roll, which is Black music. And I still love that and when I started

01:14:19.410 - 01:14:35.650

my theater group in New York City, I knew that I wanted to be exciting, like when you go to a rock concert, because there's, you know, rock concerts are so exciting, you know, music concerts, and so I, you know, the members that I chose had to be able to play music live.

01:14:36.140 - 01:14:50.650

And so we were like a garage, rock band theatre company, they have the three of us we play music and do you know, scenes, and it was the funniest thing ever, you know, and so, so in in that theater world, I realized

01:14:51.360 - 01:15:06.600

that that as we're telling our stories, but I was also at the process of being decol--decolonizing myself right after the activism SF State, moving to New York and not wanting to do plays like Shakespeare, it's like, how do we tell our stories?

01:15:06.660 - 01:15:17.840

And so my theatre group was called SLANT, Three Asian American Men, telling our stories that nobody else would tell, you know, only we could tell our story. So we wrote the songs, we wrote our stories.

01:15:18.380 - 01:15:31.560

And afterward, right, it was like, we also need to define our music in a certain way. So it's not white music or black music, you know, what is this music since we'll call SLANT, you know, what is this music?

01:15:32.120 - 01:15:46.650

And so we, you know, we decided our first show, we did a song called “Buddha Blues.” And it's like, you know, it's got to have a bamboo flute, right? Just got a. You know, that's, that's Asia, right there, bamboo flute. And then what else is the half you know what it's got, got, it's gotta feel

01:15:46.650 - 01:15:58.120

organic and loose and bluesy like the blues, you know, but it's got this bamboo flute. And so we just started, you know, improvising on stage. Not on stage, but for the rehearsals.

01:15:59.100 - 01:16:12.130

And then, you know, we're talking, and I said to the singer, who was, you know, Rick Ebihara, fifth generation Japanese American, great, great singer, who's our lead singer of the band, I said, you know, can you improvise something like, you know, when I heard when I

01:16:12.190 - 01:16:23.160

was a kid, my dad's Peking opera, Cantonese opera in the household with Elvis, you know. And it was like, “Whoa!” You know, so with the bamboo flute, and some guitar and drama, he would just do these, you know,

01:16:23.230 - 01:16:29.820

operatic voices, you know, it was so beautiful. We're like, whoa, we're onto something, you know. So it's like a process.

01:16:30.090 - 01:16:43.200

It's a process of discovering what the three of us could do and dig into our DNA, you know, into both intellectually and physically. It's like, what's, what's in there that we can make and, and authentically, not just theoretically, but in our bodies.

01:16:43.650 - 01:16:54.970

And so Rick's voice was just influencing the sound of the bamboo flute and we'd have these interweaving melodies and then we had to wove it with the song, you know, the lyrics from Elvis, you know, Heartbreak Hotel, and it was such a unique thing.

01:16:54.990 - 01:17:11.470

We loved it. It was like Heartbreak Hotel meets Cantonese opera, you know, with bamboo flutes. And so it was in that production in, in that piece called “Buddha Blues” that I discovered a love for the bamboo flute. And it was the Chinese side blown at the time, dizi.

01:17:11.840 - 01:17:23.100

And then from that, I started exploring more bamboo flutes, and then in a show us performing with La MaMa that was not associated with slant, but supported by La MaMa, the mother Theatre Company of slant.

01:17:24.080 - 01:17:35.070

One of the pit musicians in a show I was cast and experiment to opera called Oedipus the King. There was a Japanese musician, Yukio Osuji , playing the shakuhachi, the Japanese flute.

01:17:35.070 - 01:17:50.230

And when I heard that, I was like, “Oh, my God, that food is so incredibly expressive, you know, and different, right.” And it turns out that Yukio, he has this Japanese soul that goes, you know, I just heard something from 2000 years ago, when he played that flute, I was like,

01:17:50.290 - 01:17:59.900

that's what I want, right there. And then he showed me the flute, and it was just like, I, you know, I couldn't afford it, you know, and he says, well, even if you could afford it, you couldn't be able to, you wouldn't be able to

01:17:59.900 - 01:18:07.740

find a good one because he had to go to Japan. And this was pre-internet. This was 1993. You know, I mean, there was no way I was gonna find the shakuhachi.

01:18:08.580 - 01:18:25.130

Anyway, so long story short, I learned how to make them, I copied Yukio’s flutes, I studied music with him. They're how to play it how to make the sound early, and studied some of the early Zen instruments, or zen music, and I found the teacher in New York that taught the zen music, eventually went to

01:18:25.130 - 01:18:38.670

Japan to study with a Japanese teacher, then came back and, and that's when my children were born, coming back from Japan. And with that, okay, now, after we have to change our trajectory, you know, it's like,

01:18:38.670 - 01:18:52.250

I can't play around on stage anymore, I have to start bringing in some income and insurance, you know. And then I'm lucky at that time that the internet was born. And that the shakuhachi was still an unknown

01:18:52.700 - 01:19:10.220

instrument, and I built a website to make and sell shakuhachi, and I became popular, and it was just enough to support my family. And so I spent 10 years making, repairing shakuhachi from shakuhachi players all over the world, continuing to study with

01:19:10.640 - 01:19:23.670

a-an American, great American teacher named Ralph Samuelson, one of the first American teachers who went to Japan to study shakuhachi. So I learned a very special lineage at the kinkelyu, a very special, sublime,

01:19:24.690 - 01:19:36.620

deep music and still study with Ralph, and also my teacher in Japan, Kinya Sagawa . And then continue to work with professional players worldwide who come to me because I speak English.

01:19:37.210 - 01:19:45.890

You know, they don't speak Japanese. So they can't really get an instrument made, or their shakuhachi outside of Japan, and they can't get it repaired. Because they can't, you know, translate.

01:19:46.290 - 01:19:59.840

You know, well, you can but they you know, this is difficult, but they come to me and so I found a second career and that allowed me to stay at home, to raise the kids, to be at the stay at home dad and also stay involved with

01:19:59.910 - 01:20:15.340

making shakuhachi and be an activist with shakuhachi, too. So it all, you know, again, I was maybe that was luck? Or maybe I was at the right place at the right time. Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting kind of niche instrument of a niche

01:20:15.630 - 01:20:26.640

career that has like a large influence all over the world. And I was kind of wondering what goes on to the process of like making a flute? How long does it take you, do you need special materials and tools?

01:20:26.640 - 01:20:37.030

Like, could you kind of describe the process? Right. Yeah, yeah. So there are two main kinds of two main differences, two main different kinds of instruments. So one is called the jinashi.

01:20:37.030 - 01:20:51.810

Ji is a plaster nashi in Japanese, it's without, so the jinashi means a very simple bamboo without the plaster inside to tune. So those are, you know, all that requires is a saw measuring tool and the drill, you know, then you can actually make the flute quite well.

01:20:53.730 - 01:21:05.930

The other one is extremely complex, complicated, nuanced, and it's guided by your understanding of music playing, and the different styles of playing and how people play differently so that you can get different sounds.

01:21:06.310 - 01:21:14.480

And you want instruments to react to different styles. And that's similar for any instrument, whether it's guitar, violin, you know, a cello or, you know, you know, band instruments.

01:21:14.830 - 01:21:31.050

You want an instrument that's good for the style of music you play. So if you're making a jiari the other style, in Japanese is translated as there is plaster, those contemporary instruments are very, very complex, time consuming, and it's difficult to get a good one.

01:21:31.300 - 01:21:46.310

And so when we go back to my friend Yukio started, it's difficult to get a good one, it's still true today. The difficulty is in being able to assess it, because you can have two, you know, or three non-working instruments in

01:21:46.350 - 01:21:57.050

front of you, and one of them will be great. But to beginner, they're all the same, you know, you can't make a sound; they're all the same. But a good person will try all the different fingerings, esoteric fingerings, elegant

01:21:57.050 - 01:22:09.060

fingerings, cross fingerings, different blowing techniques, different tunings, sound qualities, dynamic range; there's all these things that are going to judge an instrument that you won't be able to do unless you have a certain

01:22:09.110 - 01:22:22.360

amount of playing in the years, or you have a good teacher you trust that can help you choose an instrument that you can grow with. So the simple ones, I teach in Zen monasteries and private workshops around the country,

01:22:22.850 - 01:22:36.960

because anybody who can you know, measure drill holes and cut with a very simple saw can make a flute. And so I’ve been able to do workshops with you know, 10, 20 participants. And I think it's one of the best ways to share

01:22:36.960 - 01:22:50.210

the shakuhachi it’s a natural way, the bare organic beginning way. And then when you get serious, you become a musician, you can get a bit more involved into the jiari, you know, contemporary instrument. And again, that one

01:22:50.210 - 01:23:05.550

requires a lot more fabricating skills, measuring skills, different uses of paints, tools. Yeah, very, very complex. Yeah, it sounds really so much more involved than I guess the regular like, metallic band flute.

01:23:06.590 - 01:23:19.550

Right. Well the metallic band flute is a machine. So once the person designed the machine, they're not going to be very different. The bamboo shakuhachi, what makes it unique and special is, it's handmade. And, and if you

01:23:19.550 - 01:23:33.330

study with the right lineage, and the old school, in the olden days, shakuhachi was not an instrument that could be sold or purchased, you had to get it from your teacher, and the teachers are amazing players, because that's all they did was teach and make flutes.

01:23:33.580 - 01:23:48.360

So anybody with a flute back then, played the flute that their teacher made. And you know, in Japan, you will play like your teacher, you will eventually sound like your teacher. And that's a very unique-unique experience, you know, if you go back to

01:23:49.980 - 01:24:03.500

educating yourself in terms of what you want to do out of different systems, playing the silver flute and playing the shakuhachi are two very different activities, you know, ideologically, physically, you know, and with the with the intention, you know, the

01:24:03.500 - 01:24:16.230

shakuhachi came from some meditation and empathy and compassion for the world. And you're just chanting a sound of breathing, you know, deeply. The silver flute, you have to match yourself with other musicians to play a

01:24:16.280 - 01:24:27.780

piece of music written by somebody who was, you know, composed it and somebody orchestrates the writing it. And then there's monies involved and unions involved. You know, it's a very different two different worlds.

01:24:27.780 - 01:24:38.010

And it's like, yeah, you could say there's the same in some ways, because it's a similar wind instrument, but the approach and system that they're in is totally, radically different.

01:24:39.000 - 01:24:57.740

Yeah. You mentioned that you teach in Zen temples about how to make flutes and how to play the instrument. Would you describe yourself as a spiritual person? Or do you think that there's just a connection between the flute and Zen and nature that is just inherent with becoming the master of the instrument?

01:24:59.410 - 01:25:13.160

Yeah, I think both those things are true what you just said. I think that I'm very spiritual, but not aligned with any particular doctrine or spirituality. You know, I will say that I was introduced to Christianity as a child

01:25:13.260 - 01:25:27.890

introduced, you know, have a Confucian, Buddhist, Daoist upbringing through my parents, I explored Daoism. In college I explored Buddhism still still still do. And a mixture of Daoism and Buddhism, and other ways of

01:25:27.890 - 01:25:43.930

thinking and more contemporary philosophies, and that are rooted in spirituality and understanding the human experience in its most organic way. So I think, I think that's the kind of spirituality that I have.

01:25:44.890 - 01:26:02.290

But I also think that the shakuhachi in its breathing is aligned with like, all the traditional yogic and meditation practices that are discovered. Deep breathing as a way to find a connect with certain parts of

01:26:02.290 - 01:26:15.280

yourself that is, that can open yourself and make yourself available to the world. I think that you know, the yogic and Zen masters discovered that and

01:26:15.400 - 01:26:31.040

Buddhism, Buddhist teachers discovered meditation, deep breathing, you know, 1000s of years ago, and it's there, you know, that is available in shakuhachi. And those who practice shakuhachi, for the sound just to play it and

01:26:31.040 - 01:26:47.190

chill, without wanting to become like a, you know, a Zen master will reap those rewards, without trying to, and I think that's what happened to me, after a year of playing shakuhachi for the music, you know, I realized I was a

01:26:47.190 - 01:26:59.970

much happier and chill person, you know, and I was happy and chill before I played, so it was like, “Whoa, what happened,” you know, and it was really, it just came down to all the oxygen you give your brain to expand your

01:26:59.990 - 01:27:15.940

brain, and to relax the nervous system, and just to open yourself up, and all these other new neural pathways that being open being an open individual that, that lives in the present moment. All the joy and stuff that you can find

01:27:15.940 - 01:27:33.270

by living in the present moment. Really, you know, I think cultivates a kind of spiritual intelligence, without knowing it. So without that as your goal, it will just happen. Yeah, I feel like sometimes certain instruments and certain types of music really

01:27:33.270 - 01:27:50.500

can bring out like a more spiritual and kind of a new depth to the human experience. Definitely, music-music will definitely do that. And I guess kind of moving on to your role and activism, you mentioned a lot already in

01:27:50.500 - 01:27:59.560

terms of your acting career, your theater career, and your constant pursuit to empower the AAPI community. I was wondering kind of

01:27:59.650 - 01:28:16.890

what the past two years and the way that the pandemic has progressed, the way politics has progressed with the country? Like, could you kind of like, tell me a little bit how you think that the AAPI community can work to fight the AAPI hate and just anti-Asian sentiments in the country?

01:28:19.710 - 01:28:33.930

Right. So that's a, that's really a great question. And that's what a lot of people are grappling with. Right? Everybody, especially AAPI. Because because more the younger woke, people are saying that, how do I talk to

01:28:33.930 - 01:28:46.520

my parents? How do I talk to my siblings? Who are, you know, kind of right-leaning, you know, and not understanding what BLM is, and sees the black community as the ones that are attacking Asians? Right now,

01:28:46.520 - 01:29:03.540

right? So, you know, we don't really know what the numbers are; we know what we see on TV, we see black people attacking Asians on TV, and video. And part of the reason is, is because, you know, in, we

01:29:03.540 - 01:29:17.450

have those videos, because those video, video recordings are more likely to be used in lower income areas in front of bodegas in New York City, you know, garages in bad neighborhoods.

01:29:18.650 - 01:29:31.610

And so when you have these two impoverished neighborhoods next to each other, who have been historically getting crumbs, you know, like in cage-caged together, getting crumbs, we're gonna fight for the scraps. And I would say that a lot of these crimes are more

01:29:31.610 - 01:29:46.100

crimes of opportunity more than crimes of racism, you know, when you see black people attacking Asians, it's like, yeah, you know, like, we're, you know, you know, I'm not saying that black, you know, nobody gets off the hook here, you know, we should all be we should all realize that committing crimes are

01:29:46.920 - 01:29:58.640

is just the dark side of humanity. But if you're impoverished, coming from generations of abuse and oppression, you might not have another way to go, you know, and, and I'm not, I'm not like, making

01:29:59.750 - 01:30:15.460

this you know, I'm not, again, I'm not such I want to say that black people should not be held accountable for the attacks, I'm trying to say that the reason I see black people attacking Asians is because there's a certain kind of trauma that is

01:30:16.010 - 01:30:32.110

worked out more, because the-the oppression and violence against black people have been so much greater and longer in American history than it has been against Asian Americans or Asians, AAPI, because we only started immigrating to this

01:30:32.110 - 01:30:45.580

country in the 18, early 1800’s, more around the 1850’s. And then, by that time, African Americans have already been enslaved and lynched for over 200 years, you know, they've already been suffering for

01:30:45.580 - 01:30:56.860

generations of that sort of oppressive, violent trauma. So what do they do with that, you know, they can only sing so many gospels, you know, and eventually, it's going to erupt in different ways.

01:30:57.220 - 01:31:08.300

You know, like, eventually, they're gonna realize Jesus is not going to help us on this, you know. And so now, when they're put together next to a Asian community that was brought

01:31:08.420 - 01:31:24.760

in, at the very end of the Emancipation Proclamation, let's bring in cheap Asian labor, let's make them the new slaves. You know, because those, that 1% that was controlling the economy that was controlling the building of

01:31:24.760 - 01:31:38.190

the labor, railroads, you know, screw the North, you know, we lost our slaves, and we're not going to hire black people. Let's get indentured servants over here. Let's get those cheap Asian laborers over here, you know, we're

01:31:38.190 - 01:31:48.870

going to tell them that they can pay off their debt, you know, there are poor, illiterate lab-laborers who can't read, let's just have them sign a contract and say you pay this off in a year. Little did those indentured servants, though,

01:31:49.300 - 01:32:01.880

that they weren't going to pay those contracts off for many, many, many years, and many died before they did, right, building the railroads with bombs and stuff like that. So if we don't recognize that kind of, you know,

01:32:02.330 - 01:32:17.760

machinations from white supremacy and capitalism, and we can't really address these violences today, when you look and see that, you know, and Warrior spelled that out quite well, on the first episode, Episode One, Season one, Scene one, but, uh, Sam gets off

01:32:17.800 - 01:32:27.570

the boat to the character. And he's see science is white people saying Chinese go home, chanted; they spit on him, right. Like, that's what, that's what they came into.

01:32:27.830 - 01:32:37.850

That's how the Chinese in America started. And that's because of, you know, political demagogues. Okay, now here we have more people taking your jobs. It's not only the blacks, but it's these agents

01:32:38.480 - 01:32:52.720

taking your jobs and you won’t hire me, I'll take care of it. Right. That's what these people were saying, the capitalism. And, you know, it's so insidious, because it's like, they're putting their own people, you know, the white, the Irish, against the Chinese, but at the same

01:32:52.720 - 01:33:06.390

time, it is all spelled out in Warrior, it's like, but we're gonna use them to a certain point, and they will give you the jobs. You know, it's all these under backroom dealings, you know, in how people of color are manipulated, and our lives are on the

01:33:06.420 - 01:33:21.480

line. And you saw how, I mean, in one episode, I don't know if you saw but or it's, you know, I'm gonna… What is that called? I don't want to give too much away. A spoiler but, you know, we see a lynching, Chinese

01:33:21.610 - 01:33:37.610

lynching in Warrior and that story is not told often, but when American Chinese first versus coming, there were a lot of lynchings, just as many as African Africans, African slaves being lynched black slaves being lynched, and Chinese were

01:33:37.610 - 01:33:47.600

lynched. Our numbers are so much smaller, but there were just as many lynchings. So it made the lynchings of Chinese proportionally even greater, but it's not reported in mass media.

01:33:48.000 - 01:34:01.210

So when you have that kind of history, you know, and then you see how they can use the numbers, the small numbers of Chinese at the time, which was 1 or 2 percent of America, and you have African ex-slaves at 20 to 30 percent.

01:34:02.390 - 01:34:15.210

You know, you can see how they would like, they can say, let's give a little bit more, to the Asians to appease them and divide and conquer, you know, so that they can all ask for affirmative action.

01:34:15.790 - 01:34:26.400

If Asians are doing better, you know. Like, look, just do a little better. Look at the Asians, they're doing a little better, and they're not asking for, you know, equal opportunity jobs and all that stuff.

01:34:26.700 - 01:34:40.140

You know, they're getting out there through education. Why don't you guys do the same you know, why don't you guys become the model minority? So you see how insidious that stereotype is also, how at the end it’s all used to manipulate and

01:34:40.140 - 01:34:58.480

oppress us and you know, getting back to what we can do about it is to get educated, you know, if you see, you know, and also we don't really know if the black people in numbers are greater, we see that in video there are reports and

01:34:58.480 - 01:35:14.250

studies, one coming out of the University of Michigan, saying there are more violent incidences towards Asians from white people, by far, than black people, we just don't have those on video to show you, you know, because they could be

01:35:14.250 - 01:35:26.690

happening in suburbs, you know, and I have friends who are attacked by white people, people I know were attacked, you know Asians were attacked by white people. It's not on video, you know, and they're in the suburbs with, you know,

01:35:26.780 - 01:35:38.770

and in the suburbs, you don't see cameras around catching this stuff. So we have to question where the videos come from, why aren't there more videos? And what are the real numbers, because if they're not being reported, we don't

01:35:38.770 - 01:35:50.970

know what the real numbers are. And we, but we do know, historically, that the media has always wanted to and purposefully portrayed blacks as the violent criminals, you know, there's

01:35:51.070 - 01:36:09.510

way more news, media on black on black crime, using the term black on black crime, and blacks as being violent, and blacks more blacks in jail than whites, to scare people to say that blacks are more violent, when in reality, white on white crime is much, much

01:36:09.690 - 01:36:21.560

bigger, way more white on white crime, but there's not a term of theirs, that that's not, not floating around in our culture, to say, what about white on white crime, you know, so we do know that the media is slanted, you know,

01:36:21.660 - 01:36:34.270

pardon the pun, against black people. And we see that happening now. And we just have to, we have to take, we have to understand that that reality is not what we think it is, no matter

01:36:34.270 - 01:36:46.530

what, there's, it's going to be a different reality, because we don't know what the numbers are. And we also don't know, for example, a lot of the attacks from black people on Asians in New York City, were from the homeless

01:36:46.530 - 01:37:00.100

that needed, that had more, they had that needed more mental support. They were in homeless shelters, and we realized that, you know, they actually were people who needed mental support, you know, mental disabilities, and

01:37:00.100 - 01:37:11.690

then put it in with the homeless, and now they're wandering the streets, and they attack people. And so it's not a racist thing. But it's an issue of just like, you know, mental health. So, you know, we can look at, you know, class,

01:37:12.930 - 01:37:29.880

mental health, impoverished neighborhoods, you know, manufactured poverty, putting two, you know, ghettos next to each other, crimes of opportunity, there's so much more, it's such a bigger picture of interpolate, say, look

01:37:29.880 - 01:37:42.070

at the black people attacking Asians now, you know, that's a very simple way to look at it. And if you can tell people that, hey, you know, there's a lot more information out there that that's not given us, that's going to take a lot of effort actually to learn.

01:37:42.070 - 01:37:55.960

And then that no one is going to tell you this, because you know, the structured racism in this country wants you to be ignorant. And wants you to see, continuously see black people as a problem.

01:37:56.840 - 01:38:10.870

Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of-there's a lot of like bias in the media against black people in America with the rise of AAPI hate. But there's also a lot of solidarity, black activists and Asian American

01:38:10.870 - 01:38:25.160

activists in different rallies. Support organization, so I feel like there's not a there's definitely not equal representation of what-- If anything, that's right, if anything that's a silver lining right now.

01:38:25.160 - 01:38:36.840

So it's just a sort of follow up on your questions. Right. So the great thing now is that we see a galvanizing of Asian American community, youths and older people and across all aspects of society, from students, to workers, to

01:38:37.540 - 01:38:48.270

actors, and activists, and musicians and corporations coming together to form organizations that are going to educate against this. So that's the silver lining around this.

01:38:48.290 - 01:39:02.730

And I think that, you know, I also used to say that the black people were so tight, because of the oppression was so great. And now the oppression is actually quite great on AAPI, you know, communities. And that's why now are galvanizing and coming together, it's

01:39:02.730 - 01:39:16.040

actually so great. And I'm excited to see like the Asian American Foundation formed, it's called TAAF, T-A-A-F. And, you know, they raised a billion dollars in like, less than two weeks, and that shows the power of the Asian American

01:39:16.040 - 01:39:29.050

Pacific Islander Native Hawaiian community now is that we have, we have money, you know, in our organization, we have people, if we band together, there's a good, you know, there's a good, there's gonna be a good voting

01:39:29.050 - 01:39:40.390

percentage that we can actually get people out. So and I'm excited to see that today. And I think it's a second wave from what happened with Vincent Chin, you know, in the 80’s.

01:39:40.980 - 01:39:57.510

So, it's heartening. Yeah, definitely. And then you kind of mentioned this briefly, but how do you think art, media, and performance can affect the social climate in the United States? Well, you know, everyone knows, AAPI communities, we're

01:39:57.510 - 01:40:12.680

faced with a double pandemic, right. We had the Coronavirus to deal with and we had hate and violence to deal with that. So, with the, with the Coronavirus, you know, you can see that the government and everybody coming together, asking

01:40:12.680 - 01:40:23.100

everybody to mask up, get vaccinated. You know, like, this is common sense, people, let's do it. Of course you had people not doing it, you know, and that's their problem right there.

01:40:23.300 - 01:40:34.090

Anti-maskers are the problem. They're also, you know, the, they're also there they are the problem. Yes, they are the red states that, you know, believes in

01:40:34.410 - 01:40:47.960

conspiracy theories and-and attacked our Capitol, you know, they are the problem. So, with that pandemic, we also need our communities to come together in the same way we need those civic leaders, we need the teachers, we need

01:40:48.100 - 01:41:02.440

our co-workers, we need our family to fight racism in the same way and to point to hate as a virus and where does it stem from? You know, it stems from a structural systemic, white supremacy embedded into our Constitution, and our voting

01:41:02.440 - 01:41:12.770

systems. You know, if you look at what's happening in Georgia, and across, you know, Texas and Arizona and The New Jim Crow laws and voter suppression, it's like, it's happening right now in front of you. And you always,

01:41:13.100 - 01:41:27.880

people have asked, how did this happen back then? Where were that they were, were we, you know, it's happening now! And what are you doing now, you know, so how represent artists and musicians can help is that we are the

01:41:27.980 - 01:41:40.160

voice of the people. You know, we are the soul of the people. I mean, we take we do need everybody, we need the people who pay money to buy a ticket to see a show, whether it's a movie or theater

01:41:40.160 - 01:41:54.260

show or concert, you need to spend that money on somebody on the right side of the-of this effort. Do not spend your money watching a film that's made on the wrong side of this fight? Because it is a fight, right?

01:41:54.360 - 01:42:04.020

Is that good versus evil here? You know, and we're finding people who are attacking us. So spend your money on Asian American film festivals, if you want to see films, plenty of great stories out there,

01:42:04.120 - 01:42:19.880

right. Minari you know, The Farewell. You know, all of these things are empowering the storytellers who are giving the AAPI communities voice, who are allowing our soul to be seen and felt in

01:42:19.880 - 01:42:32.590

society for other people who don't know, API's people to say, “Oh, actually, I can relate to them.” You know, Minari’s just like my family, you know, whether you're black or white minority is like to happen to us.

01:42:32.960 - 01:42:45.870

You know, I know who they are. “Oh, my God,” you know? Yeah. Again, it's like, if we're only 6% of the population that with, with half of it being immigrant, like, how is anyone gonna know who we are, unless you work with us?

01:42:46.220 - 01:43:00.470

You know, and unless, unless you watch a TV show about us, unless you see Boogie, Warrior, FOB, you know Fresh Off the Boat, or some of these other movies out there now that really is telling authentically our

01:43:00.470 - 01:43:15.510

story, not a story made up by white person to tell their story where we serve, you know, their agenda. But what is but our voices being centered, you know, so spend your money where we're on shows that centering our

01:43:15.630 - 01:43:26.800

authentic voice, and that will help. You know, I was around when Bruce Lee changed my culture, Bruce Lee changed our culture; I was around to experience getting picked on to

01:43:26.800 - 01:43:38.890

being cool, because of Bruce Lee. So that's the power of representation. Yeah, I feel like it's definitely what you were when you were saying in the beginning, like music and

01:43:38.890 - 01:43:54.250

performers and artists are the soul of the people, I feel like that's very true, and really works to help change the climate that we're currently living in. And also writers, writers, designers, costumers, everybody who's working

01:43:54.250 - 01:44:09.670

creatively to give a voice, you know, that that can be sort of, to give our community an authentic voice. I mean, it's chefs, you know, you know, chefs who are starting restaurants that are popular and can actually speak, you know, of

01:44:09.710 - 01:44:22.280

a certain culture. I mean, I think it's really powerfully also. Yeah. And I guess kind of close in closing, like, kind of questions about your identity and what you hope for

01:44:22.280 - 01:44:39.990

the future like, how do you identify yourself? Just kind of generally, first of all, like do you consider yourself Chinese American, Asian American, AAPI, how would you identify yourself? Um, I identify myself as an American

01:44:41.710 - 01:44:55.260

first, and then as a citizen of the world. You know, a lot of Chinese Americans say they don't belong either in America or when they go back to China. I think when they go to China for the first time, like me, like I don't, I didn't belong

01:44:55.260 - 01:45:07.390

there either. Right? So you spend your whole life thinking I don't belong anywhere. But there's a certain moment when you realize you’re woke. What does that mean? You're finally born, born of what you know.

01:45:07.880 - 01:45:21.430

And then I could say I was born not-not 1964. But I was born, the moment I became consciousness of, of all the ancestors who I stand on to share their voices to make this a better

01:45:21.550 - 01:45:37.760

world. I'm talking about Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, you know, and Frederick Douglass, you know, they're my ancestors. So, so I was born from that, and who am I then? You know, obviously, I'm, I'm an American, because

01:45:37.760 - 01:45:49.790

they were Americans. But you know, in terms of what I'm sorry, what was the second part of your question? Oh, it was just, like, it wasn't like, how do you identify yourself? What do you consider your identity?

01:45:51.960 - 01:46:09.110

Then that's it. Great. So, and then kind of what are your hopes for the AAPI community in the United States? Do you hope to see us in the future? My hopes for the AAPI and Hawaiian Natives are that we should

01:46:09.470 - 01:46:23.530

recognize that we have power in unity. And that any sort of division comes from structural racism. And we have a shared goal, we have a shared common

01:46:23.890 - 01:46:39.260

goal, to be free, and to, to be free and to be recipients of what the Constitution in America offers everyone, life, you know, freedom to pursue life and liberty and happiness; we deserve that.

01:46:39.350 - 01:46:56.360

And, and if we unify with-within ourselves, within, you know, I'm talking about cause you're an American, now. I'm not talking about if you're Taiwanese, and Chinese, you know, and you have your ties back then you can’t, you know, become solid here.

01:46:56.590 - 01:47:07.940

Because of that, I would say that you're an American now. And that in America, we need to be together because we need to fight systemic white supremacy, that's killing us. And so that we need to join in solidarity within

01:47:08.530 - 01:47:25.540

ourselves first, and then with our brothers and sisters of Latinx and Black people and, and know that the black people are still suffering much more, much greater oppression and violence today, even though we had a black

01:47:25.580 - 01:47:37.820

president, we have a black, you know, entertainers that are superstars. And we have black athletes to say, hey, look how good black people are doing. You know, you don't need, you know, equal housing or better education.

01:47:38.220 - 01:47:52.290

You know, you know, so same thing with the model minority myth. You know, it's all like a little tease, to say that, to appease you for the moment, you know, but in reality, most of us are struggling. And in order for most of us to get

01:47:52.410 - 01:48:05.620

out of the cages that we’re put in, we need to stick together. And when we stick together and bond a solidarity, we're just going to rip open that cage and realize that that pie is available for everyone to share. We're not just

01:48:05.620 - 01:48:21.950

getting crumbs. So solidarity, recognize our differences, celebrate our differences towards the common goal of freedom and love. I really hope that resonates and something that we can hope to achieve in the near

01:48:21.950 - 01:48:36.270

future. And I guess the last question I have for you is like, would you like to leave a message kind of a time capsule for your future generations, future generation of Asian American actors or just your possible grandchildren or great-great

01:48:36.480 - 01:49:01.530

grandchildren? Being an activist is a lifelong struggle. Learn to love it. That's amazing. Thank you so much for spending time with me today and answering

01:49:01.530 - 01:49:15.420

all my questions. I really appreciated everything that you’ve shared about your life story and how you started your acting career in music career and all that and your dedication to activism, which I really feel that a lot of people can learn from.

01:49:16.190 - 01:49:26.090

Thank you, Sonia. It was a pleasure to be here. And thank you for providing this platform. Because, you know, like we said earlier, the representation works but we also need people to help us be seen and you're doing

01:49:26.090 - 01:49:38.410

your job here and thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for spending time with the interview today. I really appreciate it. Hope you have a good rest of your day. And stay out of the heat.

01:49:40.220 - 01:49:42.470

Thank you, you too. Bye bye.