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Today is January 15, 2021, and I'm here interviewing Pastor Ted Law from Access on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. I'm Helen Pu, and I will be interviewing him with Vivian Zheng.

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So first, we can start with the chi- your childhood. So where and when were you born? I was born in California in Long Beach in 1970. So I grew up in Southern California.

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Yeah. Great. And do you have any other siblings? Yeah, I have a younger brother, Dennis, who's two years younger than me. And then I also have a

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stepbrother, who's about 10 years younger than me, and also a half-brother named Michael, who's about—I think he's like 13 or 14 years younger than me. Great. And where were they born?

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Um, let's see. I think Andrew, my stepbrother, was born in Seattle, Washington. My half brother Michael was born in LA, along with my- my brother, Dennis who's two years younger than me

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too. So they're, yeah, all West Coast. I see. And were your parents also born in the US? My parents were born overseas.

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So my mom was born in Hong Kong. She was—grew up there. And my dad was born in Canton, China, but moved to Hong Kong pretty early on when he was young.

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And when did they move to the States? They both moved over for college. So my mom was 18. See with my dad, my dad's a little bit—was a little

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bit older. Yeah. So they—did they go to California immediately? Yeah, they went straight to California. And that's where they landed. They went to schools in Southern

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California. So my dad went to UCLA. And my mom went to USC. Ok, great. And how would you describe the home that you grew up in in terms of like the family structure,

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the culture? Yeah. Um yeah, we had a... So growing up, it was just the four of us: Mom, Dad, me, and my brother Dennis. And

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in terms of family structure, my—both my parents worked. And so my dad was a chemist, and my mom, eventually she went on to do some entrepreneurial stuff, she had a travel agency. And yeah, both my

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brother and I attended public school in Southern California. Great. And so what were some important lessons from your parents that they kind of emphasized during your upbringing? I think ingrained really deeply in

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us was a sense of hard work, definitely. Working hard was... "Work hard before you play" was pretty much the motto. And we surely had lots of time to play.

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But- but school, piano practice, the- the kind of things that Asian Americans are with. Yeah, those were pretty

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ingrained deeply in us. I think also, the importance of family was- was there. I come from a pretty large extended family. And I think, you know, definitely respect

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for my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, my cousins was definitely emphasized. So we would go to family parties. Not all of them lived in the States, but when we had annual get togethers, that was like, high priority for us.

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Yeah. And so given that your parents were immigrants, were there any traditions or celebrations or holidays that they brought over? Very little, in fact. I spoke a little bit of Cantonese growing up, and then I

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lost it pretty quickly when I went to school. And I think when you—if you listen to my mom on the phone, most people don't even realize that she's Asian. You can't tell from her name that she's

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necessarily Asian. But um, but yeah, in terms of holidays, and big celebrations. I think the biggest was Chinese New Year. But beyond that, we were socialized to be pretty,

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pretty integrated into American mainstream. Yeah, definitely. And then did your family attend a church when you were a little? Yeah, they— we attended a church in Monterey Park in California. And we did that for quite a few years.

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My parents helped start that church and then eventually, my parents had a falling out. So they were divorced when I was in grade school, which is why I have a stepbrother and half brother.

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And yeah, so we, I ended up bouncing around to different churches and became kind of disillusioned with that whole thing. But- but we did go to church pretty early on, and that was very tied in with my dad's side of the family, like my

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dad's extended family all went to the same church, my—a lot of aunts and uncles. So after the church service, we would go out to eat lunch with a lot of friends and family members.

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Yeah, so they were Christians in Hong Kong already. Um, yeah, they were Christians in Hong Kong. Okay, great. And so, wa- was the church that your parents founded predominantly Chinese, or was it more of

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a ? Yes it was a Chinese immigrant church. Okay, I see. And then, when you started going to different churches or bouncing around the different churches, were they both also Chinese churches? No, they were—Mom took me to a couple of different churches

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that were, I think, predominantly Caucasian, but you know, we just tried visiting different places. Yeah. So how was—what was like, kind of the major differences between those two churches? And I guess

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which one did you feel more comfortable in, if any? Well, this—the funny thing is I really didn't feel comfortable in any of them. I think after—when my parents got divorced, I think there was a— you know, there's definitely the shame factor

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for Asians and stuff. And back then it wasn't like a whole lot of people had that experience. And so, there was quite a falling out at the church between my parents and the church and- and myself.

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I think there was an awkwardness around like, how my cousins should treat me and who to kind of look to for, you know, Mom or Dad. And so that- that was kind of awkward.

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And then going to the Caucasian churches, I think, I- I didn't feel an immediate connection. I had a hard time building friendships there. So I just kind of sat with my- with my mom a lot.

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And Yeah, yeah. And so I guess, with all of this taking into account, what ethnicity would you personally identify yourself as? Would it be, you know, just American, Chinese

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American, Cantonese American? Yeah, I... it's interesting, I- I used to identify more as Asian American when I was in California. And then when I moved out here to Texas, I noticed that that name wasn't

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used as much. I noticed people usually identify either as Chinese American or, you know, Korean American. And so I started identifying as

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Chinese American. But these days, I am going back to Asian American. I don't know, I kind of flip flop depending on who's asking the question. Yeah, definitely.

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Interesting. Um, and so would you view your Christian identity as separate from your ethnic identity? Or do you think in some way they're kind of working together? In terms of like the church you

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went to? Yeah, there's-there's most certainly an Asian influence in how I- I've seen my- my faith journey. Because after that whole thing with my parents, my friend at high school invited me to—there was another Chinese church

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in the area . And that's where I came to faith in Christ. So it was still another Chinese church. But it was because I had friends from high school that went there that I felt comfortable, and I could hear the messages

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and stuff. But in terms of my faith journey, I definitely do see that as intertwined. How to separate out some of those things, I guess we could tease out but yeah.

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Yeah, that makes sense. And so how would you say religion impacted your childhood as a whole? Was it a very crucial part of your childhood growing up? Or was it just kind of on the sidelines?

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It was pretty integral to the way I saw life, just because our- our family went to church very regularly like every week. And even through my parents separating, I was still going to churches and youth groups. It just wasn't the same one.

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And I think I had seen it mostly in a social context. I didn't really understand more about God until I was in high school. And so I think that...

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Yeah, I don't know, I lost my train of thought, sorry. Yeah, that's great. So just moving on a little bit, earlier you mentioned how your parents like values kind of impacted your academic.

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So how would you say specifically, they just influenced your studies as a whole? Yes, so I can share some specific stories. When I was in high school, you know, I worked my butt

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off to try and do really well in school. And I remember coming back with my first set of straight A's, you know, I wasn't a straight A student all the time, but I finally got it at one point. And my, my best friend was like, "Wow,

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Ted you know, your parents are gonna be so happy. Your mom will, you know, be just ecstatic over this." And I go "No, I know what my mom's gonna say. She's gonna say, 'Why didn't you get this last time?'"

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Because it was that same kind of push. There's always a push, not as much appreciation. And so sure enough, I went home that day, I showed her the report card.

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And it was the same words that came out of her mouth. It was like, "Why didn't you get that last semester?" And I was like, "Mom, you're never satisfied." So I think she—in her mind, she was always pushed me to do better.

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We can laugh about it now; I can joke about it with her now in hindsight. I think at the time, it did make me pretty frustrated. My mom has definitely eased off now that I'm an adult, and we can look back at those

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times as, "Yes, you were trying to drill it into my mind." Yeah, so that- academics was pretty, pretty, pretty high. Would you say you ever faced any type of discrimination at school? Um, yeah, a few

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times. I think when I was younger, more of it came when my parents would send me off to like summer camps. So I would go to these summer camps with the YMCA during my junior high days.

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And, yeah, that was very... I guess there's a lot of racial bigotry in people. We would ride the bus about 45 minutes to this big YMCA camp like every day.

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And there was a group of us Asian Americans that sat in the middle of the bus, both Chinese and Japanese. And- and the kids that sat in the way back would, you know, would continue- continuously call us names every day.

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So they would usually call us "Japs'' because they didn't really understand any of the differences between ethnicity, but yeah, that was pretty hard, you know, just because, you know, you're otherwi- otherized, very early on.

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And I think the YMCA was pretty diverse overall, you know, where I went, but, you know, certain kids felt very threatened by that or something. And then later on in- in high school, because our

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neighborhood where we grew up was predominantly white, and quickly becoming Asian and, and more minorities. The neighborhood was changing pretty quickly. There was a—it was a small group of kids, maybe like

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three or four, who-who started some kind of anti-Asian club; it was ridiculous. And so one day, they wrote in a—in the bathroom, the boys bathroom in the hallway, "Asians go home" or something like that.

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So it was very disturbing. They got a—they got like either expelled or some like long term detention. It didn't represent the majority of the kids there for sure.

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But boy, did it- did it raise tensions like really high, so in the school. Do you know, like, what percentage of your school or your high school at least was Asian? Just because I know California does have a lot of Asians, but I don't know if it was the

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same way back then. Yeah that's a great question. I guess off the top of my head, it would be closer to like 10% at the time.

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But yeah, I don't have actual stats to— Yeah, yeah. How did you end up overcoming like these experiences that you mentioned, like the things in the bathroom or the things, the people at camp?

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Um, that stuff used to really get under my skin. I used to get so upset. And I think going to—I went to school at Berkeley, and I think some of that kind of solidified for me, I think...

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in the sense that there—like I had at Berkeley, it was more of a place where I could both explore my ethnic heritage and appreciate it for what it was. But also learn a little bit about, you know, racism and how things worked.

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Surprisingly, as progressive as a place like Berkeley is, there was also a lot of racism too. So I don't know, I don't know how much you want to get into it, but.

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Yeah, so you mentioned you went to UC Berkeley. What made you decide to go there after high school? I took a campus trip with my mom. So we kind of explored it together.

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And I really enjoyed walking through the streets, seeing the... just a really offbeat campus, really unusual people, walks of all life, and just felt like a lot

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of fun, in addition to the school being, you know, pretty academically rigorous, but... You know, I had also toured UCLA, where my dad went, and all that stuff, and a lot of my friends went there, but I felt like the kind of

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funkiness that was around UC Berkeley was really appealing to me. And that helped. And did your parents approve of you going there? Yeah, they liked it.

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Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So would you say the environment at Berkeley was pretty different from the environment you grew up in? Yeah, it was extremely diverse at the time; it still is.

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And I think this is where I took a number of ethnic studies courses, Asian American courses, and it helped me to, to learn more about it. I think one of the things that

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really helped me to understand my Asian Americanness was on the same dorm floor, there were some kids, some students that were from Taiwan, and from China. And I— at first we're—I hung out with them because we have

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the same major and stuff. And then one day, we had this conversation about how I was not like them at all, and they're trying to make a distinction. I was like, "Wait what are you talking about?" And he's like, "No, you were

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born here, and you don't even speak Chinese very well." And he went off on this whole thing. I was like, "Hm, I'm being," "I'm being really separated from these guys" "in this conversation." So that was really interesting.

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And then that's also when the time I met a lot more Asian Americans like myself, who were born in California or around the area and, and we lived more in between; our identity was that kind of in-between-ness and- and that helped give me a better sense of being Asian

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American. Yeah. And what did you end up studying in college? Well, I entered in as a mechanical engineer, and then I graduated as a sociology major.

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So yeah. And how did you end up deciding to major in sociology? I had the worst—mechanical engineering was a lot of my parents' dream for me. It was okay, but I— the further along I got in it, I really disliked it.

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And I didn't fit in well with the engineering students. And, and I really, at that time, I always sensed a call to pastoral ministry, or some kind of ministry, and, and sociology

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seemed to fit a lot more with where I was going in that, so. Yeah, yeah. And outside of the classroom, were you involved in any other communities like extracurriculars that kind of defined your four years at college?

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Yeah, I was part of InterVarsity, which is a Christian group on campus, and I was pretty involved with them. I also was around a group called Asian American Christian Fellowship. Because a lot of my friends went there,

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and I would, you know, join some of their meetings as well. There was a— I was part of a, there was this group, I was part of a Filipino organization for a little bit. I'm not Filipino, but the Filipinos were—there were a

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lot of Filipinos in my Asian American studies classes that said, "Oh, you should just come and join our meetings." And, and so I did, and I looked kind of Filipino, I guess, so. Anyhow, that was kind of funny, because I wasn't,

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it wasn't my ethnic identity, but they really embraced me, so I- I joined for a while. And would you say your identity and your religion and your faith was more solidified in college? Oh, yeah, most- most definitely.

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I think in those years, that's when I really solidified my, my decision to go into ministry, to working with the church. And it's also the place where I was saying, you know, I- I felt like my

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Asian American identity was formed, you know? And that's where it's really interesting: I feel like in California, there's a lot of conversations around being Asian American, and a lot of my friends identify themselves as Asian

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Americans. When I ended up moving out here to, to Texas. Yeah, most people didn't say it; they would say they were Chinese, or they're Korean. And they wouldn't always add the "American" part of it.

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Nowadays they do. But it was, it was fascinating to me. So I ended up dropping that for a while, just- just because it made more sense. I was in a Chinese community, I was part of West Houston Chinese Church and I would just

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say, "Yeah, I'm Chinese." But, yeah. Do you have any other highlights of your college experience that you remember? Mhm… I'm trying to see what fits

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It's okay if you don't have anything else you'd like to share about that. Okay, so what did you do after you graduated from Berkeley? Um, I- I moved to West LA, and I lived

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with a couple of friends. And I was on their couch for a bit trying to figure out my next steps. Because I wanted to go into working with the church.

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At the time, this is before my parents approved of it, so they weren't really happy about it, because it's not a—it's not a great source of income, it's not like a a very prestigious type of- line of

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work, at least among my, my—My mom's family was largely Buddhist at the time; a lot of them became Christians over the years. Back then, they were like, "Why- why is he doing this? He went to Berkeley and now he wants to do church work.

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Is it going to waste his degree?" And those types of questions. So I moved in with some friends so that I could be a—so I could be an intern at the church, and eventually go to seminary.

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And I worked a couple part time jobs to kind of make ends meet. Yeah. So how many years or like, how long did you stay there before you decided to pursue seminary? Um, just a year, actually.

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So that year was a bunch of figuring things out. I think I was arguing with my mom, just about every week on the phone about how I wanted to do this. And I felt like God was calling me to ministry and she was like—I mean, even though

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she had a Christian background, she thought it was a really crazy idea for me to do this. And my- my aunts were pressuring her. I found this out later, saying, "Don't let him do this.

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This is kind of a foolish choice." So she was facing family pressure for me not to do this too, yeah. How did you eventually convince your mom or your parents to let you go to seminary? It was actually, it was funny, I wasn't able to make the—

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convince her directly. But she went to—my younger brother went to a Bible College for undergrad; he went to Biola. And so she attended a- an event there

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with him. And then she sat down with some other parents from Biola and she was comparing notes about kids, and somebody asked her "So what does your older son do?" And she says, "Well, he's living in West LA, and he's

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thinking about going to- to- to work for the church and stuff." And the other person said, "Oh, you must be so proud." And, and she—it took her aback because she wasn't proud. And she was like—she came home and she

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was like, "Man." It really made her think. So she called me the next day and said, you know, "I think I've been, you know, on the wrong track on this." And so she, she actually apologized and said, "If you want to go to seminary, I'm with you 100%.

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So you can, you can go, I am proud of you" and stuff. So it was kind of a cool turning moment for her, yeah. Yeah. And where did you end up ultimately going to seminary?

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It's called Talbot Seminary. It's in Southern California. It's part of Biola. Yeah. And then after that, how did you hear about the opportunity at West Houston Chinese Church? Yeah, my, my pastor at the time that I was working

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under was a friend of Pastor David Hsu here in Houston. And he was also—he used to serve in Austin Chinese Church. So his name is Dan Lowe. And he... So Pastor

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Dave called Dan, said, "Hey, is there anybody that you have on staff that could come out and do, you know, some youth speaking?" And this was for Camp Impact, you're aware of, back in 1998.

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And so I got a call from Pastor David Hsu and he said, "Hey, would you come out and speak at this camp?" I turned him down the first time. And I said, you know, I wasn't really, you know, wanting to

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travel out to Texas to speak. I was getting invitations from other California churches to speak and maybe consider, you know, taking a job at those churches, and I...

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so I had this conversation with him, and then after we hung up, he called me back like 10 minutes later, which is really unusual, right? And he, and he says, "You know, I really hope you could reconsider," you know, he really put on the, the, the pressure.

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And I said, "Okay, okay, I'll give it a shot. I'll try it out." And so, I said yes to Camp Impact in '98 and I, I really enjoyed it. You may know Pastor David Hsu; he's a great guy.

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And he won't shy away from giving a challenge for sure. So that was my first interaction with Pastor David Hsu. And it was kind of funny.

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I look back and laugh at it, because it got me out here. Yeah, yeah. So when- what year did you officially join WHCC? Um, yeah so, it's kind of a long— I don't know

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how, you know, how much storytelling I can give here. That's okay, you can go ahead. So I came out for Camp Impact in '98. And I came out first. My, my wife Amy stayed behind for a little bit,

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and she was gonna join me at the end of the camp. But I came and I knew that there was a- another kind of angle at me speaking at the camp, because they were trying to recruit

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me to join the church and be on staff at the same time I was speaking. And I told them I'm already interviewing at other churches in California, so I'd rather just speak. And "We can talk about this later, you know, you can just

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give me a call later" or whatever. And so I had a great time, I connected well with the counselors, and with the kids, and I felt like it was a real strong God

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moment, I felt like God was really at the camp, and I felt really drawn to it. And I told my wife Amy when she- she flew out for the last couple days of camp, "This is so weird, but I really feel like this is a great place to serve

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and to minister." And she was like, you know, it was like 114 degrees or something. And we were all running like crazy walking between the, where we stayed at night and to speak in the mornings.

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But she really enjoyed it too. And she made some friends quickly. And then on the way home, this was funny: Pastor David Hsu drove me from camp to West Houston Chinese

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Church, and then to the airport. But he drove on the freeway like really slow. I mean, this is like the interstate where everyone's going like 70 and he's going like 55.

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And because he wanted to talk to me about ministry, right? About recruiting me. And was like, "Okay, sure." And so sure enough, we got to West Houston Chinese Church, and they had this party set up.

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And some of the elders were there. There's a fruit table set up and food and people to greet me. So they put it on the whole Southern hospitality.

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And I was very flattered. I was very, you know, touched by it all. But yeah, so I had a really good impression of it. Fast forward a little bit. I

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was still interviewing and I, and I had some, some churches to kind of finish interviewing in California. And the process takes a while. So when those didn't go through, Pastor Dave called me again,

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and job interview and all that stuff. And the rest is history. Yeah. So what year was that exactly? Um, that was, that was '98 and

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'99. I ended up joining staff at West Houston in like February of 1999. Okay. And what was your first position at the West Houston Chinese church? I was a youth minister.

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Yeah. And how long were you a youth pastor or youth minister for? Um, yeah. So I was a youth minister for y—for four, for four years. I became a pastor like a year into it, or

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two years into it. And then I- I switched from youth ministry to the adult ministry. Pastor Dave became the senior pastor, and then I took his former position as English pastor.

00:30:19.350 - 00:30:33.090

And what do you remember, like what did you like about your time as a youth pastor? I've really enjoyed the relationships. I love connecting people with God. So that's still what we talk about at

00:30:33.150 - 00:30:49.800

Access, and, you know, helping kids find a connection with God, building a personal relationship with God is really, you know, gets- gets me really excited. So having that opportunity to do so for those years was great.

00:30:50.240 - 00:31:03.330

I also got a lot of autonomy. At first, it was a little too much. I mean, there was a youth like service that I was asked to run. And when I got there, the volunteers all like

00:31:03.500 - 00:31:12.770

resigned. "Oh, we got a- we have a staff member now. We can all go back to the adult service. And I was, you know, in charge of like

00:31:12.790 - 00:31:27.320

100 kids on Sunday by myself. It was, it was pretty insane. I would literally get- get up play guitar with some of the kids, put it down, I would preach, and then I would you know, do

00:31:27.320 - 00:31:36.820

Sunday school the same morning and then go off to, to try and train counselors, and yeah. You probably know what it's like in a Chinese church setting.

00:31:38.050 - 00:31:51.690

Yeah. So after your transition to being an English pastor, what did you specifically like? Or what was valuable about that time? Um, yeah.

00:31:51.850 - 00:32:06.660

I think there was a lot of freedom to be entrepreneurial as a pastor. And I really enjoyed some of that work. So we started a number of new projects, that included serving the neighborhood,

00:32:08.860 - 00:32:21.710

you know, different things, from health fairs, to just going door to door to assess needs. We tried to, you know, bridge a lot of those relationships with the immediate Spring Branch area.

00:32:22.100 - 00:32:34.640

And that was really fun. Um, I also really enjoyed, you know, at the- at the time, I was preaching quite a bit, too. So I spoke a lot on Sundays. And leadership development was part of it, too.

00:32:35.540 - 00:32:48.960

So, I think the church allowed for a lot of leadership developments; it's part of Pastor Dave's, you know, legacy of really developing leaders, but I really caught that as well. And I wanted to do

00:32:48.960 - 00:33:03.830

that with a lot of folks there. Yeah, so is there—sorry. So, um, moving on to like the other organizations that you are a part of. So you kind of mentioned how you guys sort of starting those neighborhood community

00:33:03.830 - 00:33:16.930

projects. So I saw that you started found, I mean, founded Vox Culture, was that one of them? Or was that... Yeah, that came later; that came when I launched out of the plan to Access, and then a year into that we also

00:33:16.930 - 00:33:28.450

launched Vox Culture. So it's been—but that heart to be a, you know, to bridge with the church and faith community with the larger city has always been there for me.

00:33:29.250 - 00:33:44.160

Yeah. And so um, kind of what inspired you to find- found it? Or can you first explain a little bit of what it is? And then what kind of prompted you to start it? Yeah, so um, Vox Culture is-

00:33:44.300 - 00:33:58.030

is kind of, you know, a neutral platform that's non-religious that helps different members of the community come together to work for social causes. So, you know, our vision is to promote social causes in creative ways.

00:33:58.030 - 00:34:15.180

And we use things like art shows and dance and different creative, like po- poetry readings and stuff to, to help people speak up for causes that they might not be aware of. And I think, in terms of

00:34:17.380 - 00:34:34.900

where that all came from, part of it probably back in my days in Berkeley, in my formation under InterVarsity and stuff, I think we had a lot more of a vision to, to be that. I think the immigrant church can sometimes be a little bit

00:34:35.640 - 00:34:49.630

enclosed in terms of its outlook. And, you know, I think necessarily so because it's an immigrant haven, you know, a lot of folks come in, and they need that kind of safety. But I think working with Asian Americans and

00:34:49.660 - 00:35:03.170

second generation folks, I think there's a strong desire to, to be part of a larger conversation and to make an impact beyond that. And so, those things kind of all stream together for me.

00:35:04.280 - 00:35:16.490

Seminary and college were influential on that. And then I had a chance to work on that in real life in Houston, so. Yeah. So was this organization local to Houston?

00:35:17.890 - 00:35:30.970

Okay. And then was it a specific area of Houston that you focused on or just in general? Yeah, there's—um, you know, when we first started, there was a lot of folks that moved to Houston from

00:35:30.970 - 00:35:48.060

Louisiana because of Katrina, and one of our first projects was doing a fundraiser for local schools that needed uniforms for, for folks that had come over that didn't have a whole lot because Katrina wiped their finances out.

00:35:48.670 - 00:36:02.190

And so it was a fun project to do that. And then we were trying to raise volunteers for their after school programs. And so a few of the volunteers from Vox were able to- to get involved with that. And, yeah, I would say that...

00:36:04.410 - 00:36:17.810

yeah, there was that part of the influence. I was also influenced by a number of different creatives and entrepreneurs in terms of church planting and stuff that helped me

00:36:18.840 - 00:36:35.850

to see how Vox could be more creatively bent. I think there's a lot of people in the nonprofit world that sometimes forget about the creative side of things and so they come across a little bit too, too need-wise.

00:36:37.170 - 00:36:54.480

I think people are sometimes fatigued and tired of thinking about news all the time. And creativity, spending creativity and melding creativity with social causes can be more life- giving and can help people see new ways of tackling old problems, so.

00:36:56.400 - 00:37:11.650

Yeah, so what are some examples of how you use those creativities to address those social causes? Yep, um, one of the things that we worked on in the early years was raising awareness around human

00:37:11.650 - 00:37:24.720

trafficking. And so, I know that it's a big hop-on these days, and I think when we were doing it 10 years ago, I was pretty new to this whole conversation and realizing that this was happening underneath our noses here in

00:37:24.740 - 00:37:38.270

Houston, it was pretty upsetting. And the more I- I got to know some of the folks that were working against trafficking, you know, in the nonprofit world, and people in

00:37:38.540 - 00:37:53.020

various community organizations, it's very, very dark. And literally, I went on this tour with someone who worked for one of the anti-trafficking organizations, we just went on a car- car ride around Houston.

00:37:53.020 - 00:38:09.200

And he kind of pointed things out to me what was going on and signs to look for. I- I seriously, I came out of that car ride so depressed and I was like "This is- this is really awful." And so we came up with an idea around

00:38:09.200 - 00:38:27.130

doing things that were more hopeful for combating anti-trafficking, because I didn't want people to- to come to an event and learn about trafficking and go away feeling like, "Oh, we're never gonna be able to solve this." I mean, so we- we tried to be more hopeful and creative.

00:38:27.130 - 00:38:41.440

We added art to it, videos and skits, we had letter writing campaigns for legislators. But at the same time, we had a— we tried to fill it with, with hope that- that there are

00:38:41.440 - 00:38:54.360

solutions that people can get-get behind and, and not feel stuck. Um, we- we've done less of that over the years. I think there—that mental has been taken up very well by a lot of great organizations.

00:38:55.590 - 00:39:14.810

But, you know, as far as what Vox does, we try and come around different needs in the- in the community that are kind of neglected in our perspective, and bring some light to it. You know, more recently, we've done stuff around refugees, which has become,

00:39:14.970 - 00:39:30.570

you know, very negatively politicized. But, you know, we're not— try not to be very political about it. But saying that these are real people with real needs. And if you get to know their story and their—and what's going on, we really do think

00:39:30.570 - 00:39:41.890

people will change their minds about- about what it means. Yeah, that's great. And so I also saw that you're a board member of Plant With a Purpose. So can you also

00:39:41.890 - 00:39:55.560

talk a little bit about what that is? Oh sure, yeah. So yeah, Plant with Purpose is an environmental restoration organization. They help to fight against global poverty by working on three things in

00:39:55.560 - 00:40:11.580

particular: environmental restoration, economic stewardship, and Christian discipleship. And so they teach farmers in—around the globe who are at really the bottom of the

00:40:11.580 - 00:40:27.340

economic scale globally—how to stay put, how to work their land, and how to renew it, because one of the quickest ways to get cash for some of the global farmers is to burn their trees, sell it as charcoal in the city

00:40:27.340 - 00:40:42.810

markets, but burning trees really does—even though it's quick cash it, it destroys the land and their opportunities for sustainability. But through taking care of their own land, they're able

00:40:42.810 - 00:40:59.040

to find a sustainable business model, and, and save money. And then they—Plant with Purpose encourages them to work together with churches and locally to build savings programs so that they can kind of lift themselves out of that

00:40:59.100 - 00:41:13.290

poverty. So it's a great organization. And I have been happy to be a board member with them for the last about five years. So yeah. Yeah, so what were your some—or what are some of your responsibilities as a board member?

00:41:14.980 - 00:41:29.470

Um, I work with governance, so I help with leadership and identifying new leaders and then helping the- the board run smoothly, just with some of my board experiences in other areas, so. It's still a learning journey for me,

00:41:30.710 - 00:41:43.160

you know, in terms of the leaders that I get to be around with Plant with Purpose. They're- they're great folks, and I really enjoy it. But what I try to bring to the table is a mixture of that, plus my pastoral

00:41:43.160 - 00:41:56.930

experience. So I'm able to help bring the- the spiritual conversation to certain things. Even though it's a Christian organization, and everyone on the board follows Christ, I'm able to help, you know,

00:41:56.930 - 00:42:08.100

discern some of those questions for the- for the board. That's great. And where is, where's like the Plant with a Purpose organization kind of located?

00:42:09.030 - 00:42:21.710

Their headquarters are in San Diego, but they work in about seven different countries. And so each country has their own board, and so it's localized. So it's more like a network to empower people from those countries.

00:42:22.260 - 00:42:36.160

I see. And so given that it's kind of Christian-oriented, is there—do you guys believe there's some way of alleviating poverty through Christian values? Or is that just kind of like a side thing?

00:42:36.490 - 00:42:55.070

Oh, it's- it's pretty deeply integrated, because I think part of it is really helping people find their own dignity, Christ, that… One of the programs that has worked pretty well in, in the African nations specifically is,

00:42:56.540 - 00:43:08.750

is the value of work. And they had this whole work, “Your work matters to God,” you know, “God created and God gave us work.” And it's been corrupted by the fall in a sense, but God created us to do

00:43:08.750 - 00:43:24.240

good works. And I think listening to testimonies from folks, from farmers in Africa, it really feels like they've received dignity for what they do. They get a sense that, you know, “When I work the land, I'm doing it with God,

00:43:24.510 - 00:43:38.550

and it's my calling to follow God.” So it's- it's very deeply integrated in that sense. Yeah. That's really interesting. So is there anything else you want to add about like, your childhood or anything

00:43:38.550 - 00:43:58.440

before we move on to talking about Access? Or any of the organizations? Yeah. I didn't know if I mentioned this, but my- my stepfather is white. My, my mom is, you know, Chinese.

00:43:58.530 - 00:44:11.140

So I grew up in a, like a multiethnic, multiracial kind of environment. Start—my parents got remarried, my mom got remarried when I was in sixth grade.

00:44:11.790 - 00:44:28.640

So my stepbrother is, is white. So anyhow, I don't know if that is relevant to the conversation. But yeah. No, yeah. I guess- I guess like, follow up question: How did that kind of affect

00:44:28.640 - 00:44:41.880

your upbringing as well, having that like, immediate shift? Yeah, I think having that kind of aware—it made me more aware of my own identity. And my stepfather was

00:44:41.950 - 00:44:55.870

really good about, you know, trying to ask questions and understand things and he wasn't very insistent on his own way only. But it definitely diversified the foods that we had at the table, on

00:44:56.100 - 00:45:07.580

the weekends or at night, and then it also—yes, meeting some of his side of the family definitely diversified the conversations too, so. Yeah, that's great.

00:45:08.160 - 00:45:21.420

Okay, I guess we can move on to Access. So you mentioned that W planted Access. Were you involved in that planning? Yeah, so it- it's a mixture of- of how that, that planting

00:45:21.420 - 00:45:36.340

process worked. So, it was in 2005 and 2006, I started having some conversations with the elders and with Pastor Dave about doing something that was more multiethnic and multiracial at West Houston.

00:45:36.730 - 00:45:54.970

And it was kind of our collective conversation and discernment with God that it'd be better to plant a church rather than do something in-house at West Houston Chinese Church. So that multiethnic, multiracial kind of part of the equation was

00:45:55.040 - 00:46:08.810

deeply part of what Access was going to be. And so in order for, you know, a Chinese church to try and plant a multiethnic kind of church, they didn't feel confident doing that solely.

00:46:09.100 - 00:46:21.830

Because they've planted a lot of Chinese churches; the Chinese churches have a great network, you know, a planting system for themselves. So we linked arms with the Evangelical Covenant Church. And so it was a joint venture in that sense.

00:46:21.830 - 00:46:36.920

It was the- that denomination, along with West Houston Chinese Church that planted Access. They brought in the expertise of- of, you know, racial righteousness and different conversations that need to happen there.

00:46:37.250 - 00:46:47.600

And they, they also gave the- the bulk of the financing. And the—a lot of the people support came from West Houston. Yeah. And where is Access located?

00:46:49.300 - 00:47:03.030

Yeah, right now the— we’re all on Zoom right now cause of- But um, we- we have a church building that's along Beltway just North of I-10 by about a couple miles.

00:47:03.550 - 00:47:14.510

It's not too far from West Houston Chinese Church. But you know, our demographics and our- the folks that we, you know, we talk to are a little different. I see.

00:47:14.850 - 00:47:30.480

And is it more of a community church or a commuter church? It's definitely commuter. Okay, I see. And so was it difficult to staff the new church? Um, difficult

00:47:30.480 - 00:47:46.460

with… maybe, in what sense, like financially or? Yeah, like finding people—finding staff to work at the church. Oh, okay. Yeah, finding staff hasn't been too difficult, I think because I had a

00:47:46.460 - 00:47:59.640

denomination to work with at that time. So it's a little different than the independent Chinese churches. There’s a—I felt like my network expanded exponentially after I joined a denomination, you know.

00:48:00.180 - 00:48:14.010

As well, I mean, the Chinese churches are very well-networked here, so that's for sure. But- but being part of a denomination, like the Evangelical Covenant Church is, it’s very connected.

00:48:14.010 - 00:48:26.470

So yeah. I see, yeah. So what's kind of—what are the differences between like—so I assume W was nondenominational. And then what's the difference between that and evangelical denomination?

00:48:27.580 - 00:48:42.400

Um, yeah. In terms of, like day to day practice, and in relationships, you know, the people that I would have called upon at West Houston, were just, you know, the local area Houston pastors.

00:48:42.680 - 00:48:56.380

And they were pretty well- networked, so it was like we'd have lunch together maybe once a month or, or meet together another way. I think with the evangelical covenant church, we do that as well,

00:48:56.520 - 00:49:09.720

but the network is very diverse. I mean, my colleagues are now, you know… they lead African American churches, Latino churches,

00:49:12.300 - 00:49:23.880

you know, mixed race churches so there's- there's a lot of ethnic and racial diversity. I see, yeah. And how big was the congregation at Access at the beginning of its founding?

00:49:24.770 - 00:49:39.390

Yeah, we started—I think our launch team was around 40 people. Yeah, a little bit over 30 joined us from West Houston, and then we got a handful from the community. Okay. And how did you reach out to the community?

00:49:40.780 - 00:49:51.090

How did they hear about Access? Um yeah, in the very beginning, when we were launching, it was all through word of mouth, it was through friendships. You know, one person would tell another person and different members of the core team would tell

00:49:51.380 - 00:50:03.970

other members and , yeah. And then I would hold, I would hold meetings at La Madeleine, sort of a free conference room, trying to find cheap places to meet. And they were really

00:50:03.970 - 00:50:18.860

accommodating, so. Yeah. Okay, and what is the- most of the age range that was- or part of the congregants? Yeah in the very beginning, everybody was I would say

00:50:18.860 - 00:50:32.810

35 and under, because I was among the oldest. I was like 36 or something? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't recommend that for any church

00:50:32.870 - 00:50:44.970

planners. I mean, I think having a wider range of- of leaders is critical. But you know, young and foolish: that's what I was in that sense. And then we- we started with a very young group.

00:50:45.680 - 00:50:57.060

I mean, I think most people were in their 20s at the time. I see. Um, and so this is like post graduation, post undergrad age range, right? Okay.

00:50:57.120 - 00:51:15.700

And then were there any youth members at the time? I see. So what were some of the like, the advantages and challenges of having a very young population. Uh, having a young congregation really helped in terms of being

00:51:15.700 - 00:51:28.070

able to move quickly and make decisions quickly, people would consent to things quickly, say "Hey, let's, let's get to work in this next week” or something. Whereas if I were to compare it to my previous setting, West Houston, I would have

00:51:28.130 - 00:51:42.420

to bring it up before the, you know, the leaders and we pray about it. And it would, it would take… I don’t know negative. But it would take like so long to get a new initiative rolling, it

00:51:42.420 - 00:51:57.070

would take forever. Um, and I think that the agility, and that nimbleness really helped with outreach and with building kind of quickness and mobility. Another thing was the amount of volunteer energy.

00:51:58.260 - 00:52:12.400

I think having folks in their early stages of work life. I mean, yeah, they were working hard, but they would also be available to do things. I think, in the middle years for Access, when a lot of them got married and started

00:52:12.400 - 00:52:27.010

having young kids, that's a really difficult time to church plan because, you know, all their, all their free time was, was used up. And so yeah. Yeah. And so after, you know, those congregants got married and had children, is

00:52:27.010 - 00:52:39.860

that when the youth group started forming? Yeah, when the, when the kids got older, so like my kids, and a few of the others that were older, it’s been a handful of them, you know.

00:52:40.080 - 00:52:56.270

We started having kind of youth group meetings and stuff like that. But, you know, for a youth group meeting versus what I used to do at West Houston, and we're talking like, a- one small group, you know, like five kids versus, you know, I’m doing youth services for like 100.

00:52:58.190 - 00:53:16.050

Yeah. And so how big is the congregation now? Um yeah, we have about 70 kids, about 120 adults, or something like that, you know. It's hard to know these days, because we haven't met for a year, nothing in person.

00:53:16.050 - 00:53:28.360

But- but that's- that's roughly around where we are: just around 200. Yeah, and what's like the ethnic composition of your congregation? Um, we are—well that's a great question.

00:53:28.360 - 00:53:44.480

I just did this breakdown; I wish I could—I had the numbers right in front of me, but I'd say we're still around 60% Chinese American. Maybe around 20% mixed Asian American

00:53:44.480 - 00:54:02.930

like Korean, Vietnamese, Thai. And then 20% or 21% around, a mixture of Latino and white congregants. So I

00:54:03.530 - 00:54:18.590

was joking with a staff that, you know, we've officially crossed that 80/20%, you know, threshold to say that we are multiethnic, so we have 21% non-Asian-American. But, you know, it's, it's just a few numbers.

00:54:19.010 - 00:54:31.000

It's really, you know— It's about our heart in our- in all of it. So, yeah. Yeah. So you guys only have English service, right? Correct. Yeah. Okay, cool.

00:54:31.100 - 00:54:47.840

And then I guess how- how multiethnic do you expect Access to be or do you hope for Access to become? Um, yeah. I think that—I don't—this is funny: I don't really have a-

00:54:48.100 - 00:55:03.640

a numerical anymore. I used to have more of those percentage things like top of mind. But really, think what's more important is that folks are discipled to being loving of all people, and being

00:55:03.640 - 00:55:19.610

able to be bridge-builders who can help cross those ethnic divides. Our discipleship goals are much more about building peacemakers and people who can be those bridge- builders than looking at the numbers.

00:55:19.610 - 00:55:34.470

So we don't typically talk about the ethnic breakdown in terms of percentages as much, yeah. Yeah. And so does Access have any outreach initiatives right now? Um, we have some partnerships that are, are important

00:55:34.920 - 00:55:49.690

for us. Immediately, with the pandemic, we are probably more on the cautious side than other churches. So we haven't done as much as I maybe desire, but we're

00:55:49.690 - 00:56:05.250

working at it. But some of those partnerships include Plant with Purpose like we talked about, Houston Welcomes Refugees, with some of the organizations in Spring Branch, and some- some missionary organizations.

00:56:06.900 - 00:56:23.540

So, so there's different partnerships that we have, I think the local ones, this past year, we—there's an elementary call— school called Shadow Oaks that's nearby the church building. And we, we did a gift drive for their teachers and

00:56:23.740 - 00:56:37.840

administrators to encourage them because they were going to be teaching during this COVID time, and we wanted just to bless them in that way, so. Yeah that's great. And so given that Access is multiethnic, and I assume you guys kind of advertise that way,

00:56:39.410 - 00:56:54.280

why do you think most of the congregation is still Chinese American? Yeah, I think with our base, we started off with, it was like 100% Chinese American, well, 99%, there was like a few people who were not Chinese.

00:56:54.740 - 00:57:09.960

And that definitely shaped those early years. And then trying to, to bring about that multiethnic conversation was—it was actually pretty difficult, surprisingly. Um, there was some

00:57:09.960 - 00:57:24.050

pushback among some of the Chinese Americans who felt like, you know, they can't really be Chinese Americans in their workplaces. Like they- they feel like they have to hide some of their ethnic identity just to make it

00:57:24.170 - 00:57:38.000

in a predominantly white kind of a work setting. And so then, when we come to, when it comes to their faith environment, they're saying, “Are you asking us to downplay our Chinese Americanness? Or how does that

00:57:38.000 - 00:57:50.580

work?” And so those were really important conversations to have. We value the Asian American journey, and we try to provide space for people to explore their ethnic identity, as well as their faith journey, because those are

00:57:51.120 - 00:58:05.040

very intertwined for them. At the same time, we want to give space for, for more journeys, and from more ethnic exploration. And so, so it's one of those, you

00:58:06.550 - 00:58:22.620

know, hard things because I feel like in Houston as a- as a broad whole, there aren't too many places where an Asian American go- can go for a faith experience. Like you can go to something that's ethnic-specific, like Chinese churches or

00:58:22.620 - 00:58:38.080

Korean churches. But if you identify as maybe Asian American, or maybe wanted- wanted some more of that experience, there's not a whole lot of churches at this point. We don't advertise it as an Asian American church, although we do have

00:58:39.390 - 00:58:51.930

small groups that are specifically designed for Asian Americans to study their heritage, know about the ethnic journey, and know about how their faith kind of fits in with all of that, so.

00:58:52.650 - 00:59:07.520

Yeah, that's great. And do you think any of those conversations would come up again, once like the church grows in more non-Chinese-American? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we still have that; we- we have that now. We have some small groups that are about

00:59:07.590 - 00:59:18.810

that. And I think it'll need to be a protected part of our journey. It's kind of our history. And we make sure that people can explore that side of themselves too.

00:59:20.240 - 00:59:34.700

Just because there's not a lot, like I say, there's not a lot of places to explore your, your ethnic identity in a faith setting, yeah. Yeah, that's great. And then so do any of the members switch between going to Access and W?

00:59:35.940 - 00:59:51.720

Um, not too many. We've had, maybe in the course of like... what, so we started in 2007. Less than a handful, less than five, I would say, yeah.

00:59:51.920 - 01:00:03.830

We had some of our launch team that went back to West Houston because it, you know, church planting wasn't for them. And then we’ve had a couple in the last couple of years at, you know, were swapping back and forth, but very, very little.

01:00:04.490 - 01:00:16.270

Yeah. And then so does Access associate itself with that Chinese church network? Or does it kind of separate from itself? Yeah, not- not much at all.

01:00:16.740 - 01:00:34.370

Yeah, not at all. Yeah, okay. And so how else have you seen the church change throughout your time at Access? Um... our church in particular or, or looking at West Houston?

01:00:34.670 - 01:00:52.980

Yeah, Access. Yeah, Access Church and then maybe like, the biggest change maybe you've seen? Yeah, I think having—what's really been cool is having, you know, families with completely non—with no

01:00:52.980 - 01:01:06.450

Asian background whatsoever, join in and join because they see the spiritual value of what Access can offer them, and they want to be a part of the vision that we have. And that- that ethnic journey, even though they

01:01:06.670 - 01:01:22.170

acknowledge it, you know, it's not going to be, you know, they're- they aren't- they aren't seeing Access as like a place for Asians only. So back when I was at West Houston Chinese Church, this sometimes happen, like with my

01:01:22.170 - 01:01:33.540

neighbors, I would tell them, “Oh, I'm a pastor at West Houston Chinese Church,” and I've actually had neighbors who said, "Oh, is that a—is that a Buddhist church?" And like they—cause the- the name itself doesn't have a

01:01:33.540 - 01:01:49.380

Christian, you know, designation. And, you know, I—maybe it was because the person just assumed because I was Asian that I was Buddhist. They made some- some, you know, some logical leaps

01:01:49.660 - 01:02:04.710

there. But anyhow, they- they- they would say that. It's- it's- it's a lot different these days with, with Access and being able to articulate that vision and having people join, who have found us to

01:02:07.470 - 01:02:21.660

be—that have found that multiethnic vision, you know, appealing. Another thing is our staff team is, you know, mixed race too, and that's, that's been a really fun thing. And so we get to talk about that all the time.

01:02:21.950 - 01:02:30.860

I mean, that's not our main focus. But it comes up here and there, and we get—we have a—I feel like we have a really good partnership. Yeah, that's great.

01:02:30.910 - 01:02:47.230

And what are some major challenges that the church is facing right now? Um, currently, I think for sure COVID has been a huge challenge. And I think if I were to compare myself

01:02:47.230 - 01:03:01.480

with some of my peers in the covenant church to our nation, I think we're slower to do opening and to try some things because there's a lot of intergenerational relationships that happen in the Asian American environment.

01:03:01.550 - 01:03:17.520

Like so people see their parents quite frequently and grandparents, they see them like a lot. So to be exposed, and then to bring it back to someone who's more at risk is really tricky. And some of the other churches may not deal

01:03:17.520 - 01:03:30.580

with that kind of environment as much. And then I think there's, there has also been—this is- this is not our- our top challenge, for sure. But there has been that Asian American backlash that has co-come along with

01:03:30.580 - 01:03:42.550

people calling it that the, you know, the “Chinese virus” or whatever, so. But that's not like a major problem for us, but it is a problem. That's interesting.

01:03:42.980 - 01:04:00.730

And so I saw that in your resume, you referred to the millennial and Gen X generations as the “missing generations.” So can you talk a bit about what you mean by that? Um, yeah, sure. So, when we planted Access, there was a several Pew

01:04:00.730 - 01:04:18.780

studies and a study by like the Gallup organization, I think, as well as by Barna and some others about those, those demographics, not participating in church life as much as their- the older generations.

01:04:20.020 - 01:04:38.690

And so even anecdotally, talking with- with peers in the city of Houston, that seemed to be like a generation that wasn't being reached out to when there had to be a downturn in economy and budget cuts and stuff like in the late 2000s, you know,

01:04:38.780 - 01:04:56.720

2008-2009. Some of the churches even in the area decided to pull their funding for young adult ministries, which is really interesting. So I think there was several factors going on there and we really wanted to see that

01:04:56.720 - 01:05:11.190

generation come to know faith, you know, come to know Christ. Another thing that factors into that is my experience with youth ministry, you know, cause I work with millennials and Gen X for so many

01:05:11.190 - 01:05:24.770

years as a youth minister, so it just made sense evolving into that. And definitely part of Access, there's a good base of Access that- that were some of my former youth. So those relationships continue.

01:05:24.770 - 01:05:36.570

And that—maybe that's another part of why the Chinese American equation is still part of it, you know, they've been along with—we've been together for many, many years. Right, yeah. And so I know there's a lot of like,

01:05:39.050 - 01:05:58.730

I guess disagreements on what Gen- “Gen X” is and then who belongs in “millennial,” so kind of what is your definition of those two generations? Yeah, I think for—the quickest way to do it is, you know, those two decades for Gen X, you know, from

01:05:58.730 - 01:06:11.780

1960 to 1980. And then 1980 to 2000, you see the millennial generation. So we see people in those generations. Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:12.030 - 01:06:24.770

And would you say—what about like, Gen Z? Would you say they're also missing in the sense? Yeah, I think from the demographic information that looked at this, it's—the same trend is continuing.

01:06:26.290 - 01:06:43.400

You know, for sure, that's- that's there. Yeah. Yeah. And what are some ways that you or Access has tried to reach out to these missing generations? Yeah, so a huge part of that is community and the

01:06:43.820 - 01:06:56.520

emphasis on community. I feel like a community is… this- this was a saying. I think I—I can't remember who said it, or where I heard it from. Hopefully, I'm not making this

01:06:56.520 - 01:07:09.500

up. But “Community is the new apologetic.” People who want to belong before they believe. And so we've really emphasized that sense of belonging for people and helping them feel like they can have a place to explore the

01:07:09.500 - 01:07:23.720

faith. So the way I used to phrase it, you know, “If you come on a Sunday morning, you know, we want to welcome you as, as part of this, you know, journey, and you can feel free to ask questions, and you don't have to

01:07:24.140 - 01:07:38.600

have all your beliefs lined up. In fact, questions and doubts are all a part of our spiritual journey.” And I think giving space for doubt and questioning and still including people in community is really important for- for the

01:07:38.600 - 01:07:51.620

younger generation. I feel like belief comes before belonging in some of the older conversations around church life, and that's one big difference.

01:07:52.400 - 01:08:05.060

Yeah, definitely. And I guess, amidst all the political tensions that has been going on, so what is your take on the stereotype of Christians being more conservative? I had like some of these conversations with Pastor David

01:08:05.060 - 01:08:21.850

Hsu, and I thought they were really interesting. Yeah, no, I think our- I think because our, our demographic is more young, and most of them are more progressive. You know, I haven't done a hard poll, but I'd say the majority

01:08:21.850 - 01:08:38.930

are pretty Democratic, or leaning. A small minority are more conservative in terms of their political affiliation. But in terms of voting, you know, it's gonna be a mixed ballot for a lot of people, because that's what they're trying to do.

01:08:39.130 - 01:08:52.970

You know, there are things that are part of each party that kind of resonate with how we see the kingdom of God, as Jesus lays it out. And neither party captures the entire picture and neither will.

01:08:54.040 - 01:09:08.170

And so it's- it's really upon the individual to make a personal discernment journey and think about, you know, work what God is calling them to do. And so we try to emphasize that, but for sure, our

01:09:08.170 - 01:09:22.910

congregation doesn't align as conservatively as a lot of the churches here in Houston. Yeah, and that's definitely something I've noticed as well, even within like HCC, you can see the youth being

01:09:23.280 - 01:09:35.740

more liberal-leaning, whereas their parents might be more conservative-leaning. So that was like an interesting trend to see. But I guess, how has your church kind of addressed these political tensions or have they?

01:09:37.690 - 01:09:50.780

That is one of the more difficult conversations to have because I feel like it's been so anxiety- ridden and people tend to get triggered pretty quickly when they hear one way or the other. And, and those

01:09:50.780 - 01:10:04.590

conversations get cut short so that you- you’re not given the space to kind of explain your thinking process or maybe how you're discerning things. And so people, I feel like, need a space to be able to talk and process

01:10:04.590 - 01:10:20.340

things pretty safely, and even explore ideas. And if they're wrong, that's okay, but we're trying to figure out life, right? And so I think with political stuff, it's important to be able to provide some neutral ground for people to be able to

01:10:20.340 - 01:10:33.720

come and say, “Hey, I'm exploring these ideas or that idea” and- and not immediately write off your brother or your sister because they disagree. Now, that's ideally speaking.

01:10:33.900 - 01:10:49.460

I think, these days, it's- it's a very difficult part of discipleship to talk about politics and where you line up just because the national scene is so, so tense. Yeah, definitely.

01:10:50.050 - 01:11:07.030

And this is just as out of curiosity, but where do you think that stereotype of Christians being more conservative- conservative came from? I guess you mentioned like scripture doesn't really capture both sides of the political spectrum, but why do many people associate Christians being

01:11:07.030 - 01:11:19.980

more conservative? Hm. I want to say that there are some historical roots that- that have, you know, led to the church being- to land where it has been.

01:11:21.020 - 01:11:38.490

You know, and this- this happens with denominations as well as ethnic churches. So, you know, where the Presbyterians just landed or where the Baptists have landed, and part of that is, you know, there's been a history there of how that's worked out.

01:11:40.050 - 01:11:55.920

But I think in previous generations and conversations, I think the- the question around abortion loomed really large and I think that, you know, that was pretty influential for a lot of evangelicals.

01:11:57.840 - 01:12:15.210

I think, you know, looking at outcomes and stuff, it's a lot more difficult to decide if one party actually captures that equation or has the intended outcome that people desire. So I think

01:12:15.210 - 01:12:30.040

there's more room for conversation around, well, how does this play out? And then there's- there's more things to consider around immigration and refugees and other things too that, that I think minorities are very concerned

01:12:30.040 - 01:12:43.740

about because that's our family you’re in too. So it's like, yeah, that's important for us. Yeah, definitely. And do you think it's changed within the church or change on like the political platform that

01:12:43.740 - 01:13:00.120

has caused more young Christians to be more liberal? Yeah, that's- that’s a great question. I really don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure what has led to that or how that's

01:13:00.120 - 01:13:17.410

evolved. I’m- I'm still doing my own studies for that, but that's a good question. Yeah. Yeah. And so what change do you hope to see in- at Access in the future? I really do hope that more of our folks can become, like

01:13:18.270 - 01:13:32.320

I said, bridge-builders and peacemakers and learning to disciple them through that journey so that we can be a force for good in that way, in the name of Christ. So where there's conflict, and where people can't see a way of coming together, I really

01:13:32.320 - 01:13:46.520

do hope and long for our people to be able to hold their, their faith in such a way that it welcomes a variety of people and allows them to talk and even be—you can disagree

01:13:46.690 - 01:14:02.080

peacefully and- and have a greater unity in Christ and all those other things. Yeah. So just to wrap up a little bit, I know you talked about a lot of things during this interview today. But what

01:14:02.080 - 01:14:15.330

are like some words of encouragement that you’d just like to give to either your community or Houston as we go through this period of time where just everything seems a little crazy, just coming from your position and your experiences in life?

01:14:17.280 - 01:14:31.380

Yeah, I would say that, you know, here in Houston, we have a very special population because there's people from so many different walks of life. I feel like it's—not only is it a diverse town, there is a

01:14:31.540 - 01:14:45.680

friendliness and an ability to cross those barriers that's unlike other places. So I grew up in LA, I was at Berkeley for a while and other places that even though they were racially and ethnically diverse,

01:14:46.520 - 01:14:59.480

they were also very segmented and sometimes tribalized and people are in their own, you know, groups. And I feel like here in Houston, there's a friendliness and a curiosity that goes beyond it.

01:15:00.420 - 01:15:15.460

Some of that you can see even in our food choices, people are willing to try different things and go out. You know, when you have something that's more- more friendly and neutral like a meal to share that's different food,

01:15:15.710 - 01:15:32.840

it forms a bridge for people to be able to cross other barriers that may be more difficult, like political ones or ideology. But yeah, I would encourage people in Houston. We have a lot that's awesome in this city, and the roots are there for greater

01:15:32.920 - 01:15:43.530

unity. I see it already. And it's all the more for our city to shine in this moment when the rest of the nation is so divided. Our city can be a real beacon of light I

01:15:43.790 - 01:15:55.280

think. But not the same way as Christ but yeah. Yeah, but you know, I think, you know, a lot of people in Houston can show a different way to do it. Yeah, that's great.

01:15:55.740 - 01:16:11.810

Is there anything else you'd like to add that we didn't get to cover or anything that you thought of that we didn't ask about? That's about it. I need a drink of water, I feel like it was a lot. Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much by the way.

01:16:13.310 - 01:16:17.270

This is really inspiring and very crucial to our archive.