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Hello, today is October 1, 2020, and my name is Helen and I'm with Emily. And we will be interviewing Pastor Justin Wong from Chinese Baptist Church in Houston, Texas,

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on behalf of Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. So first let's start with your childhood. So where were you born?

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And maybe like, around when were you born? Okay, so I was born in Fort Worth, Texas when my parents were going to grad school, and I was born in 1982.

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Awesome, and do you have any siblings? I have a younger sister. Four years younger, and she's actually here in Houston. Okay, and was she also born in Fort Worth?

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No, she—once we, once they finished school, we moved to Beaumont. Beaumont, Texas, and then she was born there, and then shortly after we went from Beaumont to Houston. I see, and was Beaumont—is Beaumont the bluebell place?

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No, that's, that’s somewhere else, that's somewhere else on 290 or something? I don't remember. I know what you're talking about though. No, Beaumont, Beaumont’s like on the way to Louisiana for—if you're gonna drive to—from

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Houston to New Orleans. And when did you move to Houston? Like what age? ‘86 like–like right after my sister was born.

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Oh, okay. I see. And what area did you grow up in Houston? I grew up in Alief. So Chinatown, kind of Bellaire and Boone, that area, like in front of Hong Kong

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Market. Mhm, yeah. And how would you describe the neighborhood that you lived in? What were like the demographics? Oh, man.

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Okay, so the reason why we moved there: number one, it was cheap. So again, my dad was the only one working at that time. And so we had a one–one income family.

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And so at that time, Chinatown, Alief was already on the way down. And so real estate was fairly cheap at that moment. We got our house pretty inexpensive because I believe,

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my sister can correct me, but I believe the week or the month before we moved in, there was a police raid on like, 10 crack houses on our street, and so we got a pretty sweet deal on our house.

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So the demog—I mean, it was a really rough neighborhood that we grew up in, we would hear gunshots, gang fights, we've been robbed multiple times. And so the—Alief at that

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time, this is like 80s and 90s, it was already kind of getting pretty bad. And so we went—I went to a really rough middle school, and it was, it was a lot of that, so yeah. By that time, it was predominantly

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Hispanic, Chinese—not really Chinese at that time, we were moving more towards Sugar Land, or the Med Center. Katy wasn't a really big boom yet, but they were moving that way. And then it was a lot of

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Vietnamese and African American. Yeah. And did you have a close relationship with your neighbors at all? Or were you guys— Ye—the ones that were safe.

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Yeah, I mean, look, growing up, I mean like, we played in the streets, I mean, again, this is pre-computer. If you can believe that or—and definitely pre-cellphone. And so we

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really just played in the streets and stuff. We, we walked to elementary school, which was like, I don’t know, 20 minutes away. And so we–we knew our neighbors.

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Catty corner every once in a while, we didn’t have like block parties and stuff, it was just, you know, we kind of did our own thing with a couple of people, but that was about it.

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Right. And did you ever move anywhere else in Houston? No, we–we moved from one house in Alief, and then maybe three streets down from Alief. So I don't–I don’t really remember why we moved from house to house honestly.

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Yeah. Emily, do you have any? Yeah, so where were your parents born? My dad was born, in born in Toisan, right? And then my mom was born in Hong Kong.

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So—and then I think they met, they met at church in Hong Kong? Somewhere—or no, they–they met at school, in—I forgot the name. Fujian, whatever that is in English.

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One of the more popular ones, and then, then they kind of, you know, met and moved to America. Nice. When did they move to the US and what prompted them to move? Good question. They, so my

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dad's family moved to Philadelphia, and my mom's family moved to Florida. What prompted them was, that's a good question, I-I-I think originally it was for education, really

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to kind of—moving there, I think it was, I–I think it's overblown to say persecution. But I think there was a lot more freedoms here, especially around that time. And so I think they wanted to kind of, you know,

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they were—my dad comes from a family of four boys. And then my mom also has a pretty big family, so I think they decided to kind of immigrate here for, I mean, I guess opportunity. And when and why did they specifically

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choose Houston? That's a g—I think it was really based off of job–job availability, ‘cause I mean we–we were in Beaumont, right, of–of all places. And you don't see a lot of Asian Americans in Beaumont.

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And so I think from Beaumont, I think my dad got a, got offers from Houston, and Chinese Baptist Church, the–the place where I'm currently at, it's actually the oldest Chinese church here in Houston. It's the first one. And

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so I think by the time he came to Houston, it was probably what, 20 something years old at that time, and so 20, 30 years old, and then so he decided to kind of take that position. Okay. Could you describe the home you grew up in?

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Kind of, like family structure and culture? I mean, I think we were—okay, so I don't know what a typical Asian American family is anymore. I just, even–even in our context, I have–I have no clue what that means.

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For us, we've always grown up in a Christian household, right, my dad has always been a pastor. So that kind of flavored a lot of stuff, which, so I think at the time, his position was Chinese Associate.

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And so, my dad's characteristic kind of bled over to the rest of the family, and so it was very hospitable. And so he—his main role was to preach and teach, but he took care of a lot of the, I guess, Chinese

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exchange students who would come from Hong Kong or China, and they wouldn’t have enough money, or they couldn't go back for holidays and stuff, and so we just remembered growing up, it was always people at our house. And those—I mean, they– they—they're still, you know, really good family friends.

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You know, they, they own Oishi. So, like, it— we grew up with them, you know what I mean? And so it was, that's how we grew, we–we just knew,

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hey, we're always going to be taking care of people. And that's a good thing. We went on family vacations with them. And so growing up, that was the norm. I don't know if that built any resentment of just kind of

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“our family” type of thing, just because, you know, we just knew that that was kind of the mission of the home. And so that kind of really played a part into it, and so, I mean for the most part, my mom taught

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piano, really supported my dad and a lot of stuff. But, again, as far as the hovering and the generational parenting stuff, my parents were on the opposite end, where we felt like we had too much freedom.

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And there's a lot of crazy baggage that came from that, so you know, just stuff like studying at IHOP at like three in the morning when I was like a freshman in high school, stuff like that, it's just ridiculous—in

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Alief of all places. So… Could you also describe some like holidays and traditions that your family would celebrate? We celebrated pretty much all of them.

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I mean, all of the–the–the standard holidays that we did. I mean, July 4th was more with the general church congregation, right, we didn't really have a personal thing until high school where we just kind of went out and shot fireworks and stuff.

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But I mean, we celebrated probably Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving. That was, that was a lot of it, right? We–we didn't really, I don’t think my parents knew much about Memorial Day or Labor Day, right, as–as first gen

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immigrants. It wasn't really on their radar other than they got the day off. But you know, it was, it was pretty—we followed whatever the news told us to follow us. That's pretty much it. And were there—were any of those holidays and traditions like

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Chinese traditions? Oh yeah, I mean, Chinese New Year, Autumn—Mid-Autumn Festival, stuff like that, right? Birth— like red egg parties, birthdays, you know, just the—whatever

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Chinese tradition. And so we—again, we're–we’re coming from Cantonese perspective as well. So, yeah. Yeah. And were there any important lessons from your childhood that you still remember

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today? I'm gonna say yes. I mean, there's, I mean, everything from my childhood, it's–it’s pretty much imprinted on who I am now. I mean, again, we mentioned hospitality.

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I think that was, that's always been huge. Taking care of people, I mean, it's–it’s part of hospitality, but really kind of going out of our way to take care of people, right, my–my parents—my dad would typically bring me along on

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visitations and stuff. And now looking back, obviously, I see the importance of it, and, you know, I-I—growing up, I'm just like, you know, it's my dad, you know, he's—broken English, I don't know how he made it through

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America, there's all these things on him. And now you're just like, “oh my God, I don't know how you got a doctorate degree” and all this type of stuff. And I'm just like, it makes sense why so many people hold

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him in such high esteem. And I'm going, it's not because of how smart or how well to do he was, it was because he invested a bazillion hours and people. And so try to enforce that on to my family and also to

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the youth that I work with as well. Yeah. So was he a pastor, like also in Fort Worth and Beaumont? So everywhere he went? So Fort Worth, he was getting his education, I mean, so Beaumont, he–he was a pastor, and I think

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he was a pastor at a pretty predominant Caucasian church. May—I—there could have been a Chinese— there's probably a Chinese small little group, I think that's why he was hired on. That’s a—again, it's like,

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a billion years ago. But yeah, then come to Houston. So we were, for the most part, within a church thing, we were always most likely first gen Asian-American that we're dealing with, or overseas,

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right? Mhm, mhm, yeah. And so what school did you go to in Alief—elementary school? Elementary, I went to Chancellor. Do you know–do you know Chancellor?

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Yeah, so Chancellor Elementary, and then I went to Alief Middle School, which is the tough one. Got–got stories there. And then high school, I was actually dra—we were, there's a drafting system in Alief, and

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it was—at that time, it was either Hastings or Elsik. Those are the only two. And both of them had horrible reputations. And so at that time, Kerr High School was actually three years built.

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And so we actually—my friends and I dec-decided, hey, we're all gonna apply to go to Kerr High School. So I ended up going to Kerr, Kerr High School there. And then that was elementary, middle, high school.

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Yeah. And so what stories do you have from middle school? Middle school was rough. Like, you know how they keep talking about, like, kids getting beat up, and you know, whatever, like, that was me.

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Like, so my friends and I, we got–we got jumped, like—and it's not the “jumped” where you got pushed, I mean, like, you don't know where it's coming from, and people just knock you out from the back. And so that was really traumatic, sixth and seventh grade.

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So this is old school. Do you remember the shoe called the Kangaroos? They have pockets—so they designed shoes with—and–and not–not just for me, by the way. They have these shoes, and they

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have pockets on them, like a zipper or a Velcro, and they actually—you can—it’s supposed to hold your keys or your coins or whatever. So that like if you're running or just something you don't have to like carry them in your pockets. Anyways, I bought me a pair so I could keep my mon—my lunch

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money in there. So when I got jumped, they wouldn't steal my money, ‘cause I'm like, you get jumped, and then you lose your money, and that’s like double damage. But man, it was so bad where the gym teacher

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would—if he saw two people fight, he wouldn't want to get in trouble, right, so he actually put boxing gloves on the two people and he would lock you in the office until somebody got out, right? And so I was like, I have no chance.

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So I'd rather get beat up there than just, you know. So I-I-I would always dress out before gym class ‘cause it was the locker room that we would get, you know, jumped and stuff. So—and then by my eighth grade year,

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the school had already implemented drug dogs, they would wand us down as we were walking to the school—walking into the schools, we'd have to wear clear backpacks, we go through metal detectors. There would be search raids every week or whatever.

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I saw my first stabbing in—like next to my locker, introduced to drugs early on in like sixth grade, and then there's a nursery for pregnant teenagers at our middle school. So, by the way, this is like, early 90s.

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Which is insane, right? Yeah. So–so my–my upbringing is very different than the demographic that I'm working with right now, with teenagers. So… Yeah, and I guess we can get into that later.

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But did you—when you and your friends were like, jumped, or was that because you guys were like Asian? Or was there like a specific reason? Probably, I mean–I mean, pretty sure we were vulnerable.

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We looked vulnerable, I mean, we looked like small little Asian people. And, you know, I just, I–I think at that time, again, there's no social media, very influenced by prepubescent hormones and stuff, and so, you know,

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it's just how people coped. There's a lot of gangs in middle school. So a lot of that was that, you know, just trying to exert your dominance. So I think some of it was racial, some of it was just

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teenage boys, right? But it wasn't just the guys, it was, I mean, it was—harassment, bullying, all of that stuff was like, that’s just, to us that's just what you go through, you know, and because you are Asian, you know, at that point,

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you're just not, there's not a lot of big Asians playing sports in my middle school at that time, it was maybe like two, right, and then the rest of us are just scrawny and stuff. So… Right, and how did you cope with those like experiences?

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I mean, fortunately we were beat up together, so we–we coped as a group. It wasn't ever so bad to where I had anything broken, or came home with like bruises or black eyes and stuff, so we never really

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told our parents about this stuff. You know, it was just—to us, it was really kind of like, okay, this is what people go through, you know, we just take our poundings and then we just move on from it. And then by eighth grade, I–I wised up, I made friends with some of the big, the big

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guys who are also, you know, nice people. So they protected me. And so we–we kind of played the game that way, as well. So by eighth

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grade, again, you know, I was just—again, I wasn't big, but I knew how to make different friends who—I made sure to kind of cover myself that way. So, but it's a–it's a whole ‘nother strategy for surviving middle school ‘cause I had to make sure that I-I knew certain people in

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different groups or cliques or even gangs, to go, hey, don't mess with him, he's, you know, there's too much heat from his other people. So it was just very, very weird. It feels like a soap opera, or some kind of weird reality show.

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Yeah, and what about in high school? Dude, high school is completely different. ‘Cause it's–it’s—so Kerr was like, you had to take, like take tests to get in and stuff.

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And so we didn't have to worry about any of that. So I was like, oh, thank God. So Kerr was completely different. It was, it started off as a, it wasn’t a magnet school, it was

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public, but it was a–a testing school to where it was a college prep style, where they would give you a syllabus, they would have you a lot of kind of free asynchronistic learning. And then, you know, so

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socially, it was really easy for me. So I mean, I–I jumped in freshman year, made friends with the seniors and everyone else, our graduating class was 123. So that gives you a–a feel of how small the school was.

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So by the time I graduated, you know, I hadn't—I’ve–I've known most of up-upperclassmen. I knew most of my senior class, and I still–I still hang out with them today, I still know them. And so it's just, high school was very

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drastically different than middle school for that, yeah. Yeah. And were you more like academically focused in high school? Or a mix of both? I–I think I want to say I was a good mix of both.

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I mean, I was—so again, we had 123 in our class, I was number 12. I was like, there's no way, ‘cause top 10 was, like, 12 people. And so it was really hard to fight for the top five spot just because, you know, you just

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can't screw up at all, but they're all my friends anyways. And so, the way that school was structured, it was very academically focused. So I don't think that was a pressure whatsoever.

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I think if anything, it drove us to more competition because we were taking like 10 to 11 AP courses by junior, senior year. And then—but then socially it was easy just because, like, it's so small.

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And the structure of the school did— was–was you know, and then it was weird because we went to school for like nine to three. Or nine to four. So, you know, it's just that–that changed some of the dynamics, because whereas like

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Clements and Bellaire, at that time they're going from like seven to two or seven to three, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, makes sense. So outside of school, what kind of extra curriculars did you take part in? I got a job. I've been working since I was 12.

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Obviously, that was like, under the table. But I was grading for Kumon, right? That was my first—I was getting paid like a dollar an hour or

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something. So, my parents cut me off, I think around 14 years old or whatever. And so, after working at Kumon, I started to work at Papa's, Papa’s Seafood House as

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a bus—not a busser, as a host. And then a barback, and then all this other stuff, and then worked for the United States Census, and then did pharmacy for a little bit. So did that during high

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school, and then I was pretty involved in church stuff, camps and youth group and all that type of stuff. And then I think I tried the YLC and then the CACA

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stuff for a little bit, but never–never really got into it. So the whole, you know, Miss Chinatown Pageant and the whole Youth Leadership Camp conference thing, that—whatever they had at Rice at that time.

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So It wasn't–it wasn't much, it was just working, working in school, church. Did your parents ever have an influence on your studies? I mean, it was never like, you gotta get A's.

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I think it was more like, just do your best, right? And I don't know if that was because of pastors, right? Pastor’s upbringing? I think as long as they're like, look,

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you know, don't–don't go to jail, don't get a girl pregnant, and we'll be fine type of stuff. So I mean, they—my—they never really helped me with homework, either.

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It was just kind of like you—me and my sister just kind of figure out what you need. If you need TestMasters, or if you need a tutor, then we'll think about it and stuff like that, so it was kind of, there's no pressure

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there. Outside of like work and church was anything like more fun and lighthearted that you took part in? High school? Or— Middle school or high school.

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Middle school was, middle school is a blur. I think because of my past testimony, I'm just like, I'm pretty sure I've repressed that. I started dating in middle school, if that’s extracurricular,

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but—so I dated some—I dated a girl for two years from eighth grade to sophomore year of high school. So that took up a lot of time.

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And so that, I mean, that was fun, when you're just, you know, the dating and hanging out with her friends and stuff like that, ‘cause she went to—she went to Memorial. So it was a whole different crowd than the Alief crowd.

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She'd never really hung out with my friends. So, I mean, I–I did a lot of—I felt like, you know, high school is fun, just ‘cause, you know, again, small classes, went bowling a lot,

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studying was really—I mean, not the studying the actual content, but the studying together was really fun in high school. Again, we would go hang out at Barnes and Nobles, or IHOP, or House of Pies, Denny's

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and stuff like that, till crazy hours in the morning. Watched a ton of movies together, go to people's houses, that's pretty much a lot of the stuff. Oh, crabbing in Galveston.

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I know you mentioned before that you keep in contact with like a few of your friends from high school? Would you say that like you're still pretty close? Yeah. I mean, we were—actually right before this call, we were on a group, group chat

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talking about how do we plan our 20th high school reunion? So yeah, I mean, ‘cause I mean, every-everyone's all over the place, I mean, I got a friend in New York and I still have some in Houston. So we still keep in touch. So it's, I mean, after 20

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years, right? It's pretty amazing. But yeah, I would say we're fairly close. Every time we get together, typically Christmas or Thanksgiving, we try to meet together somewhere in Houston to have dinner with everyone's families.

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That's really nice. How was the college application process for you? The a–the application itself was pretty easy. I didn't—okay, so I, again, I'm not the most studious, my SAT scores were horrendous, I wasn't like the valedictorian or

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anything. But I ended up getting accepted to some pretty decent schools in the East Coast, West Coast. But for me, it was kind of like, well, I wanted to do pediatrics.

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That was, that was the goal. So I was looking at best med schools in America, first off, so, you know, obviously wanted to go East Coast for some of that stuff. But then I was like, I can't afford it. Because I think at that time, it was like 80, 90 grand a year or something

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stupid. I don't know how much I'll pay there. But, you know, I was like, looking around, especially in Texas, kind of like, where—what–what sets me, what sets me to a fairly decent path.

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And at that time, HBU was actually one of the top ranking pre-med programs, because they had the best transition rates. And so the reason why I ended up staying at HBU is because they required us to double

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major. And then I had a pretty decent scholarship to go into it. And then it was, it was close to home, right? So I wouldn't be living on campus.

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And then I really wanted to stay back ‘cause I have a little sister, she was just starting high school. And I–I knew the people that were gonna be around, and just kind of the, you know, just the—how we–how we grew up, and I was just like, hey, I want to, if I can, I want to be

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in Houston to kind of shield some of that. So the process was fairly easy. So… What were some of your other top choices? And did your parents like, have an influence, or a say

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on—say in them? Yeah, they—no, they just like, I mean, again, they said—they–they–they did not say that they're not gonna pay for me. But for, for my parents, they're like, hey, we’ll–we'll support you as much as we can,

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but you know our financial situation. I was like, noted. So I’m like, I gotta get a job. So, you know, we

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were looking at Stanford, Princeton, Brown, Yale, these type of things. And then, you know, just looking at the costs, cost and kind of where I wanted to go or like, is undergrad really worth me shelling out that

00:27:39.180 - 00:27:55.120

much, ‘cause I was like, there's no way I was going to get that much scholarships to go to those schools. And so, after the finances were out of the question, then we're thinking local, and, you know, trying to weigh not just the–the undergrad degree, but then also cost of living,

00:27:56.550 - 00:28:08.270

you know, these type of things. So I don't—and–and–and I think once I applied to HBU, it was a really quick response. And so I think at that

00:28:08.270 - 00:28:22.700

time, I was like, you know, I don't—there’s–there's—I-I just withdrew all my applications from all the other schools because I was like, I don't want to pay, I don't wanna pay the fees. So I was like, you know, let's just commit and then move, ‘cause all my friends actually, all my close friends in

00:28:22.700 - 00:28:38.750

high school went to, most of them went to UT some of them went to California, Bryce, I think, so… Nice. And what did you major in in college? I–I have a degree in biology.

00:28:39.920 - 00:28:55.400

And I have one in religious studies. Nice. Yeah. And what, like, what were some communities that you were part of in college? Were you part of any like, okay, like on campus clubs or—

00:28:55.400 - 00:29:06.340

So I-I commuted, right? So again, I'm not, I can't be too, too involved. I did—I pledged a fraternity, I

00:29:06.340 - 00:29:17.750

think freshman year, maybe for like a week. And then I was like, yeah, I'm not doing this. And then I joined–I joined the pre-med society or something, whatever I don’t really remember

00:29:17.750 - 00:29:33.140

what it was called. And then I joined a VSA, because that's where all my pre-med friends were, and I was like, alright, Vietnamese Students Association. So I joined–I joined–I joined maybe three or four, I really just kind of

00:29:33.140 - 00:29:47.720

hung out with a lot of the VSA students, just for, you know, because we're all studying together anyways, but that was the on campus stuff. Mhm, yeah. And so were you part of any ministry group, or were you just still involved in like CBC?

00:29:47.990 - 00:29:57.680

Yeah, not on—not at–not at church. I mean, sorry, not–not that—not on campus. At that time, they didn't have a youth pastor at CBC.

00:29:58.300 - 00:30:09.650

So me and maybe two or three of my buddies, we just kind of picked up the slack. And that's how I got involved in youth group man, that was just kind of like, hey, you're around. Why don't you do stuff?

00:30:09.980 - 00:30:22.800

And I was like, okay. Right. And what were some of like the highlights of your college experience? I know like you commuted, but was there anything— I mean, there’s–there's a lot I mean, highlights as far as like memorable?

00:30:22.800 - 00:30:34.310

Or highlights that I’m like, oh, this is like life cha—like character building. I guess both. So I mean, it was,

00:30:34.790 - 00:30:50.440

I mean, okay, so on the ministry side, obviously, working at CBC really shaped my, it-it-it changed my trajectory for–for my career, obviously, ‘cause I was–I was going pre-med. But somewhere around junior year,

00:30:52.530 - 00:31:04.050

as I was working more with the youth, I decided, I-I just sat back and I was like, hey, apparently I'm decent at this, I like it, I wish I got paid to do this, and then at that point, that's, that's, so that was–that was really formative.

00:31:06.500 - 00:31:23.700

But college was where I met a ton of different people. And I–and I–and I really enjoyed that about college. And it was actually spent more time with people outside of the church than I did with those inside, just because of how we studied and

00:31:23.700 - 00:31:36.230

stuff, ‘cause I mean, it's just the–the rigor of pre-med was so massive. We did a lot of that. But college is— I-I thought college was pretty, pretty fun.

00:31:38.260 - 00:31:55.970

You know, again, it had to revolve around, like, hanging out while we're studying. But I had a little core group and it was–it was–it was pretty fun. Yeah. Are you still friends with them now? Yeah, not really. I'm more—I'm–I’m closer with my high school friends than I am with my

00:31:56.000 - 00:32:10.030

undergrad friends. At least the ones that—the ones on campus. Mhm, right. And where did you go after you graduated from HBU? From undergrad? Yeah, undergrad. I went to Southwestern Theological Seminary, Southwestern

00:32:10.030 - 00:32:22.200

Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth. I did, yeah. No, I did the Masters of Divinity there. And it was actually the first time I've left the home.

00:32:24.550 - 00:32:36.610

And I went, I–I stayed on campus, I opted to go to campus rather than online. And I did that for about three and a half years. But what was also really life

00:32:36.610 - 00:32:51.210

changing was, my dad left the church in 2004. And that's when I just graduated undergrad. And so they forced my sister—I mean, I don't blame them, but they really accelerated the

00:32:51.210 - 00:33:03.120

maturity rates for my sister and I because, again, we would, we really have no home in Houston anymore. And this is kind of where we built our future—our–our–our life. My dad and my mom went to Atlanta, Georgia.

00:33:05.300 - 00:33:20.030

So when I decided to go to grad school, it was double hard, just because number one, I'm going by myself, and I've never lived by myself. But then number two, I can't—I'm not coming back to Houston for, you know, long weekends or holidays, because there's no home anymore.

00:33:20.230 - 00:33:32.410

And so when I did decide to do that, you know, I had to stay with my aunt, stay with some friends and stuff. So it was–it was, it's very, very life changing, the transition between undergrad and grad school.

00:33:32.980 - 00:33:44.290

Mhm, yeah. And what made you decide to pursue seminary rather than, like, pre-med? My dad told me I was an idiot, and I needed some education. He was like, hey, you think you're smart, but you're really stupid.

00:33:44.780 - 00:33:55.990

You probably—'cause I mean, I got offers right out of undergrad to do youth ministry. And I was like, I could–I could do this, right? Like, just get a book and repeat it.

00:33:56.100 - 00:34:09.510

And then he was like, you'll always have time to do that. Why don't you get a formal training and your master's degree will go longer than you think, further than you think. And so my dad really influenced me there.

00:34:10.230 - 00:34:24.050

I decided on the seminary I went to because it was a really good mix of theology, but also Christian counseling. So I wanted the practical with the academic. Mhm, yeah. And what made your dad leave the church?

00:34:25.540 - 00:34:42.090

Drama. He—I think after 18 years, it wasn't peaceful. I–I think they got to a point where he was like, I did everything I could, and yet people don't want to change, or it's just the wrong people in power.

00:34:43.050 - 00:34:54.470

And I can't fight this anymore. And so they decided, hey, it's time to go. Mhm, and this was at CBC, right? The CBC. Which makes for a funny story because of my

00:34:55.120 - 00:35:08.480

return to CBC. Right, we can talk about that later. And so what did you do after your seminary? So after three and a half years, what's funny was I was offered

00:35:08.480 - 00:35:23.770

the position at—so, during seminary, I served at Arlington Chinese Church, where I made a lot of good friends there. But—so they offered me the youth pastor position right after I graduated, but I told them, I've

00:35:23.770 - 00:35:34.820

already made a commitment to my dad's church to intern there for a year as the English—so ‘cause I–I, you know, he was like, hey, I need your help. And I was like, okay, once I'm finished, I'll give you a year. So I told Arlington, I'm like, if you

00:35:34.820 - 00:35:45.910

get hold off on a year, then I'll come back and I'll take the position. And they said no, can't wait that long. So the funny thing is they gave it to my friend, which is–which is good, it’s fine, I was–I was like, good

00:35:45.910 - 00:35:59.600

for them. So after seminary, I went to Georgia, and I did English Ministry Interim for a year under my dad. I see. Okay. And so your dad was like, the Chinese pastor?

00:35:59.950 - 00:36:14.800

Or English pastor? No, he was the Senior. Okay, cool. And so what, what kind of made you pursue like the pastoral route? You mean, in ministry versus like, itinerant speaking,

00:36:15.520 - 00:36:30.120

or authorship? Yeah, sure. Or if I don’t understand— Well, because—so I re—I really wanted to join a-a NGO, right? Before–before jumping into

00:36:30.120 - 00:36:45.190

ministry, because I just wanted to do the–the camp stuff, or the whatever. And just a lot of the nonprofit stuff. But I think something clicked when I'm just around people, and–and I talked to Jason

00:36:45.190 - 00:36:57.950

about this on a podcast, and I think he said the same thing. He said, you know, for you and I, we’re built more to take a small little group of people and move them from point A to point B, versus go to a group,

00:36:58.570 - 00:37:09.950

talk there, say some stuff, and then move on, while not having any clue what's gonna happen to these people afterwards. Right? And so for me, I was like, hey, I'm in–I'm in–I’m—I'd rather

00:37:10.530 - 00:37:22.870

invest plant roots, and really kind of toil with these people for an extended period of time rather than whatever else. And that was kind of the pastoral route, if anything.

00:37:23.210 - 00:37:41.200

Right. Yeah, what does like being a pastor mean to you? Right now, in this season, it's just crazy. But it—I think it–it really means, I mean, by definition it

00:37:41.200 - 00:37:57.030

means shepherding, right? Taking care of people, wanting more for them than they want for themselves at time, risking your relationship and your influence by loving them enough to sometimes call them out on

00:37:57.060 - 00:38:08.370

things that's gonna kill them. So it's a lot of that. I think at the beginning, I thought it was really about organization, structuring, programming and stuff.

00:38:09.360 - 00:38:23.740

While that is very important for a pastor, the administrative side, but it's really about the–the person to person, right? And I–and I would say, as a pastor, this is, this is the most insane job in the world.

00:38:24.010 - 00:38:34.210

I mean, because what you're dealing with isn't just preaching, or teaching, or doing all this type of stuff. I mean, it's cultural contextualization, it's counseling, right?

00:38:34.210 - 00:38:44.310

I mean, it's—you got to be certified. I mean, you almost have to be a certified counselor, you have to be a theologian and academic, right, because you can't just pastor out of your, out

00:38:44.310 - 00:38:58.420

of your own opinions. I mean, you gotta–you gotta be studied, you have to be a student of the culture, of where people are at. And so it's like, 10 jobs rolled into one with none of the benefits at times, and all of

00:38:58.480 - 00:39:14.230

the issues, because you're dealing with humans who think that, well, I pay your salary, so therefore you serve me. So it's–it's this misunderstood, just a lot, 99% of the time, just kind of like, what the—what am

00:39:14.230 - 00:39:28.930

I trying to do here? Right, and if it wasn't for some kind of eternal truth, or some kind of grounding, then I'm like, this job is, like, ridiculous, like, no one should ever apply for this kind of

00:39:29.350 - 00:39:43.240

mentality. Right, yeah. And do you think your father being a pastor influenced your decision to be a pastor? He— so when I told them I was dropping, because I was taking Organic II at the moment and Bio-

00:39:43.240 - 00:39:57.990

Biochem and I was like, you know, I don't really need this. And so I was like, I'm going to tell him that I'm dropping, I–I—'cause I was so far into Bio, I was still gonna keep the Bio degree but I was going to tell them, hey, I'm not gonna pursue pre-med anymore.

00:39:58.710 - 00:40:05.760

My mom and my dad, were like, I think they were just devastated. Like the look on their face that night at dinner. They're just like, oh my God, what did we

00:40:05.760 - 00:40:19.950

do wrong? And then I was like, no, no, no, but I think I want to pursue ministry. And they're like, no, like, it was like, why are you going to ministry when you, we want you to go to, you know, to be a doctor.

00:40:21.650 - 00:40:40.900

Because—and I think a lot of it was, don't, you know, we-we've gone through the worst of it as a pastor and a pastor's family, and my–my mom knew exactly what my future wife was gonna have to go through. And they were like, whatever you do, just don't go into ministry.

00:40:40.970 - 00:40:51.430

So they counseled me out of it, I had to pers—I had to persuade—and by the way, at the time, they were still pastoring. So I had to persuade my mom and my dad to allow me to pursue ministry.

00:40:54.040 - 00:41:08.140

But then, obviously, they saw that this was beyond their decision and my decision for–for the most part, and was like, okay, well, you know, because they–they– they heard the affirmation from other people, too. And it wasn't just me, you know.

00:41:08.730 - 00:41:26.320

Right, yeah. And so where’d you—what did do you do after Atlanta, in terms of pastoring? So, after Atlanta, I had already had my Master's, and then two, two Bachelor's degree, a lot of experience. And so churches were calling, I mean, I–I—pretty much wherever I wanted to

00:41:26.320 - 00:41:37.860

go, I was gonna go. And my parents were like, well, you kind of owe it to CBC because you're still a member there. And technically, they kind of supported you through some financial givings and stuff.

00:41:38.740 - 00:41:53.100

And I was like, like, why would you even bring that up? Like, of all people, why are you telling me to fly there? And so I was like, there's no way in the world that I want to go there. And so I was like, screw it.

00:41:53.300 - 00:42:02.580

I’m—I'll send my applica—and–and they asked me to, ‘cause they also knew that I was finishing, and I was like, and–and the person who was seeking me out, it was a good family friend, and I was like, look, to be honest, there's

00:42:03.020 - 00:42:15.670

no way you could convince me to come back to CBC because of the baggage, and–and then they're like, just–just apply, and let's just see. And I was like, okay, fine, whatever.

00:42:16.150 - 00:42:30.620

And so I applied, they-they're like, we like it, alright, why don't you go for the next step? And I'm like, okay, and so the next up was salary. And I think they offered me $12,800

00:42:31.270 - 00:42:42.200

starting, and I'm like, hold on, is that–is that, like, per month? Or is that like, what was going on there? They're like, no, no, that'll be like your starting salary.

00:42:42.200 - 00:42:55.290

And I'm like, you do realize I have, like, the credentials. I'm not like a 12 year old trying to apply for a job. Because I think at that time, I was making more as a part time, as a pharmacy technician, than—‘cause it was like,

00:42:55.440 - 00:43:06.460

right above minimum wage. And I'm like, what are you guys doing? I’m like, you do realize I don't wanna, you know, I–I don't wanna move up in the pastoral ladder.

00:43:06.460 - 00:43:19.690

I just—I wanted, I wanted the youth ministry for however long I want, like this salary, I can't–I can't have a kid or a wife. And I can't, you know, I'm gonna be like living off of people's generosity. So I'm like, this is ridiculous.

00:43:20.270 - 00:43:28.960

So I'm like, okay, why would I apply? And then they're like, okay, we’ll renegotiate your salary and stuff. I'm like, okay, better be like 10 times more.

00:43:30.680 - 00:43:44.860

And then I already have my qualms of going, but they’re like, let's bring you in for an interview. And I said okay, and my–my–my attitude was, I'm just going to disqualify myself at the interview. Because they're gonna ask me questions, and I'm going to be as blunt and

00:43:44.860 - 00:43:54.110

as honest as possible. And I'm like, look, you guys suck, like, you're—how you run things is stupid. Like, you know, that person needs to leave. And I'm just going to be as honest as possible.

00:43:54.410 - 00:44:02.840

Like, look, I tried, and they don't want me I'm out, so then I'm like, free. And then for whatever reason, they're like, oh hey, good points. I–I–I agree with that.

00:44:03.320 - 00:44:11.070

And I was like, what the heck? So I was like, crap, I actually might have to get this job. And so I came in for an interview.

00:44:11.730 - 00:44:25.380

And I sat down with a youth group at that time, and I'm like, look, I don't want to be here. I really don't want this job. But if you guys—and I–I was looking at more like the high schoolers, I was like, hey, if you guys are willing to do

00:44:25.380 - 00:44:36.170

this with me, like seriously do this and not play some kind of stupid game, and we're gonna, like, go as hard as possible or whatever. I mean, it was very like, okay, do or die. You be honest with me. And if you're not in for—into

00:44:36.730 - 00:44:47.680

this, I'm–I’m not applying. And they're like, yeah, we're in, we're in. And I was like, okay, I'll take the lowest paying job that came through my email, and I'll take

00:44:47.680 - 00:45:00.260

it. And 13 years later, I'm still here. Yeah, so like, you're talking about, like, your resentment towards CBC because of your dad's experience. How did you like kind of get over that?

00:45:02.520 - 00:45:17.290

Man, honestly a lot of it, it really not—I–I didn't get over it, because even when I first started my first couple years, those people were still around. And so there was so much bitterness going on. And I

00:45:17.290 - 00:45:29.850

had to see myself as—‘cause I mean, ‘cause I mean coming in, I was a very kind of, you know, unpolished, very green, kind of like, look, I got the, I got the master's degree, right, I got the experience,

00:45:30.050 - 00:45:41.410

all right, I'm on staff now. And I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you, all right, like, so I was fighting with them like any chance I got. And I realized, you know, this is not gonna, this isn't just hurting me,

00:45:41.550 - 00:45:49.500

like, this is hurting the people that are all around, and especially the youth, ‘cause I–I–I saw the youth pick up on a lot of this. And I'm like, I don't want to be that type of example.

00:45:49.960 - 00:46:01.630

Right? And so honestly, I don't know if I've really gotten over it. It–it–it is part of my testimony of why I'm here. And I mean, I’m

00:46:01.630 - 00:46:15.630

going to—of all things that makes the gospel to make sense, or the—even the pastor, it is because in spite of all this stuff, there's something that supersedes all of this, you know? And it's because of what this,

00:46:15.820 - 00:46:31.210

what this means, what the mission looks like, the importance of people and eternity and stuff. ‘Cause I mean, like, look, none of this is—would be worth it. Like, for—I–I wouldn't wish this on anybody. Right? Like it logically doesn't make sense to do, to do ministry, right, especially in

00:46:31.210 - 00:46:44.090

2020. But if and only if there is a transcendent truth that governs all of it, then I'm going well, then at this point, there's nothing else I would want to do, you know.

00:46:44.460 - 00:46:56.690

It's definitely not fun or easy. But there's a guiding principle that goes above and beyond kind of the baggage and the bitterness and resentment. Yeah. And so why did you choose youth ministry rather than like, being a normal

00:46:56.710 - 00:47:10.770

English pastor? Good question. ‘Cause I mean, I think the average age of youth pastors when I first started, was like, 18 and a half years old. Right out of high school, I think that was the predominant—and then

00:47:10.770 - 00:47:23.640

the tenure of a youth pastor at that time was three years across America, but in Asian American churches, it was a year and a half. And so I was like, uh, I'm trying to go against the entire—‘cause

00:47:23.640 - 00:47:38.730

I was like 24, 25 when I took the job, and I'm like, you know, I'm already like, what, sev-seven years older than the oldest senior? And so I was like, I don't know, half the terms you guys are using, you know,

00:47:38.730 - 00:47:51.790

just Urban Dictionary-ing all this stuff. And I'm just like, what are you guys talking about? So I already knew, but the reason why I wanted to stay with youth, partly, honestly, was because of my personal youth

00:47:51.980 - 00:48:06.900

experience. I think the people did the best they could. But man, I—it was just, it was fun, but that was it. Right? And I'm like, man, I just—I don't know how I made it out of youth ministry growing up there.

00:48:06.900 - 00:48:20.480

So I just—I–I never wanted the people under my watch to ever have to go through that, right? Second thing was, I always felt like the youth, not just in churches but in general, they always get the se—like the

00:48:20.580 - 00:48:29.450

sloppy seconds from everyone else, right? ‘Cause there's like the adults, right? Like, let's–let's take care of the adults, let's budget for them, let's–let's program for them, let's, you

00:48:29.450 - 00:48:41.880

know, always cater to them. And I'm just like, but why do you—and it's not just the budget and everything that you’d get sloppy seconds, but I’m like, the education, the training, because I'm like, no one is well, well qualified.

00:48:41.880 - 00:48:55.510

I’m not—and again, I'm—I know there's a lot of people who are doing a good job, and they can't do the education stuff. I'm just like, why are we giving these teenagers such like, second, third level crap, you know?

00:48:55.760 - 00:49:08.410

And I'm like, it doesn't make any sense. And it—what really kind of blew my paradigm and understanding was, if you think about this, right, 11 years old to 18 years old, it's the most formative

00:49:08.910 - 00:49:20.530

seven years of someone's life. I mean, you're going through puberty, right? Your prefrontal cortex is comp—starting to really like change and grow and physiologically is just changing.

00:49:22.110 - 00:49:35.400

But you go through, you go through some massive rites of passage, right? You–you get your license, you start to vote at 18, you start to–you start to build out these worldviews of sexuality, of

00:49:36.360 - 00:49:48.240

race, of identity. And I'm just like, why wouldn't you put the best of the best for youth ministry? Right, or for taking care of teenagers, for that matter, you know?

00:49:48.670 - 00:49:59.660

And so then I start to go like, it's not just youth ministry, but it's youth education, right? It's youth in communities. It's youth social services.

00:49:59.710 - 00:50:14.110

It's youth all of this stuff. And I was just like, I–I can't neglect this demographic, and especially on a, on a church level. But then what was even bigger was if youth ministry was already

00:50:14.110 - 00:50:30.890

behind in mass, then the youth ministries in an Asian American church was even worse. Right? Especially for second generation. Because not only were they not given the tools and the–the–the things that they

00:50:30.920 - 00:50:43.430

need, but it's almost relegated to kind of a babysitting program in a lot of Asian American ministries when–when we were jumping in, right? And so I was like, if I can, if I can set down some parameters to

00:50:43.430 - 00:50:56.110

change a lot of this stuff, then I want to–I want to–I want to drive that conversation. Right? I want to break the mold of the year and a half. And if we can help not just change the Asian American churches,

00:50:56.110 - 00:51:14.480

but Asian American culture in general, but then also youth culture, I'm just like, yeah, there-there's so much, there's so much potential, but then there's so much neglect in this demographic that I’m going, you know, it's–it's–it's almost a shame, right, that we've been kind of blinding ourselves to

00:51:14.480 - 00:51:27.740

kind of such a big thing. But yeah, I mean, again, you–you look at social science, the strategy is always the same. You get into the minds of the students, then you win, you win everything, right?

00:51:27.740 - 00:51:39.010

You cha—you shift culture by changing the worldviews of adolescents. Right? And that is the strategy, right? And you can take that for complete insanity.

00:51:39.970 - 00:51:52.990

Or you can take that for really big social changes. Right. And so what would—what were some like differences between Asian American youth culture versus like, maybe a predominantly Caucasian church?

00:51:54.480 - 00:52:08.660

Well number—I mean, easy thing was resources. Right? So just–just because of the timeline, so the oldest church in Houston right now is us, some—60 something years old, right? Most, most youth groups

00:52:09.350 - 00:52:19.510

were what, 75, 100. So they–they not only have the resources, but they have the seats at the table. You know what I mean? Like it's, these are these camps.

00:52:20.130 - 00:52:32.480

These are what—the ideas that we're doing. And so what made me very aware of this is when I started taking the job at CBC and I would go to these youth conferences, and I would look around, I'm like, Good Lord, I'm the only

00:52:32.700 - 00:52:41.720

Asian American at this place. There's maybe three minorities in like, 1000 Caucasian guys. And I'm just like—and–and

00:52:41.720 - 00:52:50.750

again, I had nothing against the Caucasian guys. But two things ran through my head. I'm like, number one, I'm going where–where are the people who look like me, right? That–that was the first, that was my

00:52:50.750 - 00:53:01.470

first thought, I was like, how come they're not coming to these things? Right? Are they not invited? Did they not know? And what I realized is, most of the church—Chinese churches don't have youth pastors. Right?

00:53:01.470 - 00:53:14.830

They got an auntie or an uncle who has the time, maybe likes kids, and they're serving, and I was just like, where the world are all the people who are in their 20s who have to do this. That was—so that was the first one.

00:53:15.260 - 00:53:24.270

And then as I'm getting older, I'm like, dude, half your books that you write for us, I can't contextualize that. I don't have a million dollar budget, right?

00:53:24.340 - 00:53:36.790

I don't have, you know, I–I don't have a youth building. And so all of the resources that were geared towards Asian Americ—or geared towards youth stuff, I'm like, dude, that's–that's all

00:53:38.140 - 00:53:53.280

monolithic culture that I can't translate to necessarily. Like the principles, maybe. And again, I–I–I have no, I have no ill feelings toward that. I'm just going, you know,

00:53:53.840 - 00:54:03.290

we need a voice. Right? And again, we need a voice for our people, not so much we need a voice to drown out everyone else. If that makes any sense.

00:54:04.500 - 00:54:17.630

‘Cause–‘cause I'm going like, I don't know where the next 20 years is gonna look like for the Asian American church. And Jason and I talked about kind of, man, what happens after second generation, you know?

00:54:19.080 - 00:54:32.340

And–and Asian churches have to think through this, so—I don't know if that answers your original question, though. No, yeah, I think so. And so my—so Dr. Chao kind of brought up that in the old days CBC—since

00:54:33.490 - 00:54:49.730

CBC was like the oldest church, it was more like of a community for people, a place for people to like– like fellowship and stuff. And so back when Jim Crow policies were in place, CBC did like social dances, English lessons, just like to try to attract

00:54:50.740 - 00:55:04.860

congregants and just to help them out. Have there been any things that you've implemented similarly, like specifically for the youth, to attract more youth? To attract youth? Yeah, or help them.

00:55:06.160 - 00:55:20.450

Honestly, I'm–I’m–I’m on the, I’m on the different philosophy. If anything, I'm trying not to do anything on campus as much. And that-that's more of a theological, philosophical understanding ‘cause

00:55:20.510 - 00:55:34.430

I'm going, look, to call it a church, right, to call it a—what biblical defined church is, it's a group of Christians for the sake of fellowship, right? Christian community, Christian worship, Christian education,

00:55:34.430 - 00:55:45.570

and equipping, right? And so I–I see it as hate. If we're gonna call ourself a church, we're gonna do the best we can inside here, so that you guys can go out there to go change the world.

00:55:46.300 - 00:55:55.550

I–I–I don't want—I–I tell the youth all the time, I'm like, I'm not really looking forward to having you invite your friends to come to the CBC. Like if they come, awesome, right?

00:55:55.940 - 00:56:08.650

They're always welcome, whoever they are. But in reality, my job is really to kind of get you to understand your role as a Christian, so that you can meet people where they're at outside, ‘cause I'm like, why in the world would they feel

00:56:08.650 - 00:56:19.270

comfortable—it's–it’s already weird bringing them into a—e-even if they're, even if they are Chinese, right? I'm like, we have three, three identifiers, right?

00:56:19.270 - 00:56:29.290

We're Chinese, Baptist, and a church. And that's already three obstacles. And I'm going, why not just cut to the chase and have you go out there? So what we've done is we've

00:56:29.360 - 00:56:40.920

done all of our initiatives outside of—usually outside of the walls of CBC. And we enjoy that. I mean, the only thing that we kind of do internally is Java Jam, that we've been doing for about 12, 13

00:56:40.920 - 00:56:53.760

years. And that's more of kind of like a post camp, but you know, multi-generational kind of hangouts, right? But it's–it's once a year, it's–it's—you know, it's fun, I like it, it does a lot of good, but we try to do

00:56:53.760 - 00:57:06.670

everything outside. So what we try to do really is get involved with the school systems. Talk with the superintendents of the schools that our kids are going to, try to get on, try to meet with—I-I-I've had—try

00:57:06.670 - 00:57:23.080

to have meetings with school counselors to go, hey, where can the church partner with you? Because I know that your teachers are busy teaching academics, but in reality with students, right, what's similar is

00:57:23.630 - 00:57:34.340

it's really dependent on parents. And it's really dependent on a lot of this health thing, which, again, a counselor, you know, they're overwhelmed with this. And so we say, hey, where can we step in?

00:57:34.480 - 00:57:48.200

Where can we do the research for you guys? And so—and then also because we are Chinese, how can we, how can we bridge the gap to your Chinese American demographics in your school systems? And their parents

00:57:48.200 - 00:58:01.650

and stuff, like how can we do that? So you know, when they get foreign exchange students from China, so Fort Bend does this every year, and we connect them with different Chinese organizations, we–we–we

00:58:02.020 - 00:58:13.280

were able to kind of do this, not because we're doing it from a church, but coming more from a cultural standpoint. So we do a lot of our initiatives outside of the walls, or at least for the youth ministry, that

00:58:13.280 - 00:58:29.540

way. Yeah. And what have been some other impacts that you, or like you and the youth, have made on specifically the school systems in Houston? I mean, easy, like really low hanging fruit, has just

00:58:29.720 - 00:58:43.730

been just caring for the friends of the students. So we try to pick some really big campuses—Clements, Bellaire, you know, Cinco, I don't know. But— Langham Creek.

00:58:44.450 - 00:58:59.340

So what we do is we always kind of do some kind of school initiative where we go, hey, members of CBC, we just want to make sure that your friends know that there's a church that takes care of them, right? And that–that–that was basically the premise.

00:58:59.670 - 00:59:08.720

And the goal was, hey, after school, invite your friends to the nearest Chick-fil-A, or boba, or whatever else like that. And we'll pick up the tab. No, no bait and switch. Right?

00:59:08.720 - 00:59:22.820

No, no sign up for something, no give us your email or social security. It was just, hey, I represent this youth group, and we just want to care of you. And if you ever—right, and for us, it was I–I–I didn't even want to be there.

00:59:22.920 - 00:59:39.140

Right? I just get my credit card and I’m like hey, just charge within reason. And ‘cause what I want to do is like I want to go, hey, that kid, what this—what these things do is it allows my youth to have a

00:59:39.630 - 00:59:53.490

generous face to face interaction with their peers. And when their peers asked, hey, why in the world are you guys doing this, right? Are you all selling something? Like–like that's what everyone asked, like, okay, so do I need to attend some kind

00:59:53.490 - 00:59:59.450

of meeting or something? I'm like, no, no, no it's free. And they're like, wait what? Like I don’t have to pay? And it like, it freaks them

00:59:59.480 - 01:00:14.390

out because, you know, like, apparently no one is generous in high school anymore. But I want–I want my–my youth to number one, be the face of generosity, right? And I–I don't even care if it ties back to the

01:00:14.390 - 01:00:28.630

church, I just want them to be the face of generosity. But then also just to go, hey, church isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, they just seem like normal human beings that care. And I think that's the big

01:00:28.630 - 01:00:41.780

thing that we want the youth to do, is to go, look man, like, I'm not trying to sell some kind of wacky cultic idea, it’s just be you. Like, if you're, if you're cool, be cool, right? If you're, if you're this type of

01:00:41.850 - 01:00:52.640

person, then–then lean into it, but you have a different worldview. And, you know, it doesn't mean that you can't still be who you are, it's just—you know? So I just want them to know that.

01:00:52.640 - 01:01:06.270

So that-that's a small initiative with the schools. And so we always talk with the, the managers and the operators of the restaurants. And so we try to work with the schools and the community.

01:01:06.770 - 01:01:20.990

So one thing that our youth group does pretty well is we-we’re pretty connected with the food industry of Houston, because of how we interact. So when Harvey hit, our youth were the first ones to ask managers and

01:01:21.140 - 01:01:33.840

bussers and servers if we can collect anything as a church, to pool resources so that we can give to you. ‘Cause again, we–we frequent them, we know who they are, we keep–we keep telling our people, hey, keep going to this

01:01:34.220 - 01:01:45.130

specific charity, or this–this House of Pies on Westheimer or whatever, and always get to know them. So they know who we are. And they know we're not trying to sell anything, because we've been doing this for years.

01:01:46.100 - 01:02:01.230

But they also know that we are Christian, and we're not ashamed of talking about it, but we're not going to shove it down your throat either. Right. Yeah. That's awesome. So moving into like more of CBC as a whole, do you know much

01:02:01.230 - 01:02:17.330

about the history of CBC? To an extent, yeah. Fairly. I mean I know the last 30 years. I mean, the–the–the origins of it, it's spotty, but I’ll

01:02:17.330 - 01:02:33.740

try my best. Yeah. Do you want to share? Like, how it began and stuff? Yeah, I guess like it—whatever you know about it. Okay. So we are a—we're the first Chinese church planted

01:02:33.800 - 01:02:49.390

from First Baptist Church, Houston. Right? So I10 and Wirt, right, so kind of in front of the marquee and stuff, I10 and 610, alright, First Baptist. And so they wanted to plant because I think the Asian population was growing,

01:02:49.590 - 01:03:04.330

right, in the 60s. And so they wanted to have something for the Asian-Americans, right, especially A-Asian-American immigrants. And so we were actually back at, we were in South Maine. That's where we–where we started first.

01:03:04.900 - 01:03:20.790

And then I think we bought lands where we're at right now, which turned out to be a goldmine ‘cause it’s Memorial. So we–we bought lands at our current location in Memorial. And I mean,

01:03:20.790 - 01:03:34.970

it–it–it really was kind of a, a beacon for the Asian-Americans of Houston. And from CBC, there was a Bible study that–that launched and that's where HCC

01:03:36.560 - 01:03:51.110

was formed, right, as a–as a Bible study group. And it was mainly more for like the Mandarin congregation, I believe, because CBC was predominantly Toisan and Cantonese. And so I think they wanted to kind of form HCC in that manner.

01:03:51.760 - 01:04:04.110

But we have a lot of immigrants from Mississippi, a lot of the first gen Chinese from Mississippi. So if you ever watched that documentary, I don't know if it's on Netflix, it was on

01:04:04.400 - 01:04:13.940

either PBS or something, it was about the Mississippi Delta Asians. Did y'all watch that one? Like, that's our people. And so we just

01:04:13.940 - 01:04:26.930

celebrated—I mean, Houston Chronicle just put a story about the–the Flying Tigers and our veterans who served in a lot of the world wars. Not—wait, hold on, they didn't serve in World War One.

01:04:27.670 - 01:04:41.070

But like the– the–the Korean War, these–these type of things. And so a lot of our original members, our founding members, were actually, you know, they're–they’re really active. And they were the movers and shakers

01:04:41.310 - 01:04:55.960

of Houston. And so a lot of our people, you know, really were integral in the Medical Center, in the medical–medical field, Dr. Joyce Fan, she wrote one of the, you know, one of the major chemistry

01:04:55.960 - 01:05:13.960

textbooks, and so she taught there for numerous decades and stuff. So, we have a lot of polit—I mean, so CBC, because it's so old, we have a lot of politicians, right? City council people, we have a lot of those

01:05:13.960 - 01:05:28.480

guys. And so a lot of our grandmas were actually born here in the States. And so I remember Tina's first story when she came to visit CBC. One of the ma—one of the old grandmas went up the stage and she

01:05:28.480 - 01:05:44.640

had this thick Southern accent and she was like, what in the world? So that-that's really what CBC has its history. I mean, we're predominantly Cantonese, a lot of people from Hong Kong, attract a lot of students.

01:05:46.900 - 01:06:04.090

But we've kind of cloistered ourselves in that–in that little bubble for so long now. So— Yeah. Yeah, ‘cause our archive contains like Jane Gee–Jane Gee–Jane Gee,? Gee? Jane Gee? And like Linda Wu, that whole family.

01:06:05.180 - 01:06:20.340

And it was only recently that I realized that family's like, huge, like Connor’s part of that family. It’s huge. And the thing is, they still have a lot of influence on the Asian American communities. Because I mean, again, they’re–they're part of CACA, right, the

01:06:21.360 - 01:06:34.110

homeless Chinatown organizations and stuff like that. The—I know, they do a lot of family scholarships. So the Gee’s are huge. Right? They’re– they’re—that's a big family.

01:06:34.110 - 01:06:46.340

The Zhou’s are really big. The Chan's. And, you know, there's just—all— there's really—we call them clans at CBC. Because they're—it's–it’s not just, it's like, hundreds, and you

01:06:46.340 - 01:06:57.270

know, it-it-it's just massive. Right. And so CBC is like, you know, a Baptist Church. So what does that really mean? And how does it differ from like, other denominations?

01:06:58.770 - 01:07:11.440

I talked to Jason about this, yeah. Wait, J—you asked Jason about CBC and the Baptist denomination? Yeah, just like, what's the difference between HCC being nondenominational, and CBC being Baptist?

01:07:11.440 - 01:07:28.310

So the–the reason why CBC is Baptist is because of our Mother Church, First Baptist. So I mean, that-that's just by legacy. We-we're–we're under the—so, Baptist is–is a denomination, a

01:07:28.310 - 01:07:45.080

lot of it has to do more so with theological secondary issues, right? I think if you–if you look at Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptist, right, it's pretty similar as far as the theological understandings on the–

01:07:45.140 - 01:07:59.180

on the big stuff, on the secondary things, more the nuance things, they kind of dis—start , start to disagree. The difference with Baptist from everyone else is it's actually the autonomy of the local church.

01:07:59.740 - 01:08:12.240

So we are not—there's no governing body that oversees a Baptist Church. So we are completely autonomous. So we're not like the Methodists, to where if the–the Synod or the councils decide, hey,

01:08:12.240 - 01:08:22.110

we're gonna close down this church, then the church is gone, right? There's–there's no—the people can’t have a say. So we're completely self-governing. And that was one of the hallmarks of it.

01:08:24.150 - 01:08:40.490

Historically, the reason why we're called Southern Baptists really is over the issue of slavery. So that–that was, that's a huge stain on our denomination, and it was openly repudiated many a times, but formally, I think within

01:08:40.490 - 01:08:54.200

the last 20 years, a lot of the conventional leaders really kind of stood up and kind of denounced, you know, ca—not only apologized, but denounced the whole, you know, slavery history, but then racism and all these other things as well.

01:08:54.200 - 01:09:07.530

And so a lot of people who don't know the difference between a Baptist and whatever nondenominational, that's–that's usually really jarring news, especially–especially youth, they're

01:09:07.530 - 01:09:16.390

like, wait, what? Like, why—we’re Southern Baptists because of slavery? And I'm like, it's part of our history. So, yeah… Yeah. So what–what is that history exactly?

01:09:18.070 - 01:09:38.140

So it–it–it broke off into clergy owning slaves, and a lot of the Southern pastors and congregants, you know, it–it–it's—a lot of it was theological too, right? They weren't, they weren't abus—some of

01:09:38.220 - 01:09:51.570

them really kind of took the Bible and just went crazy town. But those who really believed that they were, they were doing the right job, it was a theological thing, too. It was kind of like, well, you know, we see

01:09:51.570 - 01:10:06.350

this, there's no straight prohibitions against slavery, right? Because they're like, well, how do we justify certain letters and stuff and they were thinking economics as well, obviously. Whereas the North-

01:10:06.450 - 01:10:20.050

Northern Baptists, they were pushing down, they're like, hey, look, this is—this was a—it was not a condoned thing to have, it was permissible at that time, but with massive regulations, which is very

01:10:20.280 - 01:10:35.680

different. And so this is where, I guess, you know, definitely during the Civil War, this was hugely debated, and even debated within denominations and stuff, so, but again, like I said, the Southern Baptist

01:10:35.680 - 01:10:49.240

Convention eventually came around to kind of say, hey, we were wrong. This is definitely not right. And they repudiated the whole thing. Yeah. And so do you think the Chinese aspect of like CBC influenced the

01:10:49.240 - 01:10:59.890

meaning of “Baptist” to the Church at all? No. Honestly, I mean, I think if you ask 99% of them, they have no clue what a Baptist is.

01:11:01.250 - 01:11:15.010

They—so the caricatures, the misnomers, they're gonna be like, well, we baptized by immersion, which I'm like, okay, you're not wrong. You don't dance, you don't drink, you don't smoke, or whatever.

01:11:15.010 - 01:11:28.870

And I'm just like, where did you guys get that? And I'm like, you know, so it's all these caricatures of what a Baptist is, and I'm like, yeah, I've already broken half of those, you know, so, so it-it's–it's—again, it’s—when you

01:11:28.870 - 01:11:42.610

talk about Baptist denominations, it's more of the polity and small theological differences. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So how large is the congregation, the English congregation and

01:11:42.610 - 01:12:00.470

Mandarin? On roll or in reality? In reality. Okay. Pre-COVID, I would say English congregation was about 150 to 200 people.

01:12:02.240 - 01:12:18.700

Mandarin was about 30. Cantonese was about 30, 40. On paper, on paper, English is about 450, 500 numbers.

01:12:19.440 - 01:12:34.650

And then Cantonese and Mandarin sit about what, 150, 200 or something like that. Mhm, interesting. Is there also a Russian congregation? There was a Russian congregation that was part of us,

01:12:34.880 - 01:12:46.150

and that—they are no longer there. They—we have a Thai church that meets at it—at CBC, but they're not officially part of our membership. I see. And how did that Russian congregation start?

01:12:46.240 - 01:13:01.430

And why did they leave? Good question. I don't know, I'm not privy to a lot of that information. It was, it–it—I believe it was initiative from our senior pastor at that time.

01:13:02.500 - 01:13:17.670

And he had close connections to Ukraine and Russia. And I think one of his friends was—asked to kind of, hey, can we–can we meet here? And I think they did some kind of agreement. And then I-I'm not

01:13:17.730 - 01:13:31.500

very clear on why they left, that type of thing. So— Yeah. Pastor—is it Pastor Oleg? Oleg, okay. He's from, like, isn't he from Kazakhstan?

01:13:31.850 - 01:13:42.050

Kazakhstan or something? So he came here—what—is he English side or Mandarin? He is, his–his–his title is Pastor of College and Young

01:13:42.050 - 01:13:53.520

Adults. Oh, I see. Okay. Cool, I heard he was like, he went to the church that HCC planted in Kazakhstan. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

01:13:53.670 - 01:14:09.980

It’s pretty cool, yeah. So, are there any other like, ethnic groups that CBC kind of attracts? You mean inside the congregation? Yeah. Maybe non-Asian or other types of Asians?

01:14:11.220 - 01:14:28.280

There's—so at this current moment, right, there's no strategic plan to attract any specific group. And I'll even say Asians, at least the–the English congregation, we're just like, hey, we're just kind of going

01:14:28.280 - 01:14:43.120

about it. And so there's really no definite strategies for specific target audience, it’s just kind of if you want to show up, show up. Obviously, the Mandarin or Cantonese are more flavored towards their

01:14:43.120 - 01:14:55.940

congregation. So, you know. But in Houston, I think there's only—it's us and Southwest CBC that are the Cantonese dominant churches, whereas everyone else is Mandarin. Yeah.

01:14:56.540 - 01:15:09.220

And so like kind of speaking on all the Asian churches in America or in Houston, are the congregations more like self-selected on which church they specifically go to, do you think? Or—

01:15:09.740 - 01:15:19.890

You mean–you mean in–in Houston? Like, whether—what church they want to attend? Right, yeah. So specifically like Asian-Americans. So do you think one church caters more to like,

01:15:20.080 - 01:15:33.670

ABCs, Taiwan— Yeah. I mean, that's–that's–that's such a hard question right now. I mean, I think the benefit of where HCC is located is because they're so close to the Medical Center.

01:15:33.670 - 01:15:45.630

And I think that was strategic. Obviously, they draw from the schools there, right, so Rice, the Med Center, St. Thomas, even, I don't know.

01:15:45.630 - 01:15:57.530

But just, you know, geographically, and then Fort Bend obviously attracts all Sugar Lands, and they are the most, they're the largest Chinese church. They're actually one—they're considered a—I

01:15:57.930 - 01:16:06.800

think they’re considered a mega church. More than 2000 people. And so most of the other ones are location driven.

01:16:06.800 - 01:16:25.000

So Katy, Katy Christian Community Church is obviously geared towards Katy. The North Houston one caters to Spring and The Woodlands and Humble. But churches like West Houston Chinese Church and CBC, we’re

01:16:25.280 - 01:16:43.340

more so commuter churches, and people are coming from all over the city. And that's typically because of family or friends that draw them there. And I think the unique thing with CBC is, we are the only church that is English

01:16:43.720 - 01:16:57.700

ministry dominant. Like, our–our biggest congregation is English. Yeah, that makes sense. ‘Cause we're—‘cause we’ve been there so long. Right, yeah. And kind of along those lines, the English congregation has grown so large,

01:16:57.800 - 01:17:11.190

but how has that affected CBC’s initial mission, I guess? Or maybe it didn’t affect it at all? That-that's a good question. I mean, at this current moment, I mean, I don't—it's not a

01:17:11.190 - 01:17:24.380

secret. I–I think we're–we're trying to figure out what that is, actually. And so I mean–I mean, obviously, the–the Christian mission has always been the same. But the goals and the, the trajectory of CBC, I think that's

01:17:24.480 - 01:17:36.130

currently in progress. Mhm, yeah. And what do you think CBC will look like in the future? In terms of like, congregation? Good question. I–I—to be very honest, I think if

01:17:36.820 - 01:17:51.200

we don't start asking really hard questions right now, in my–my personal opinion, and I-I-I'm, at the moment, I'm the most tenured on staff, which is, which is odd, right, being a youth pastor.

01:17:52.760 - 01:18:09.880

But my honest assessment is, if we don't start asking some really, really hard questions about who we are, who we're—who's our target audience, how we're gonna do this for multiple generations, without those questions being asked and

01:18:09.960 - 01:18:23.130

answered relatively soon, I think CBC has a timeline. Mhm, yeah. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, I'm saying we—these are, these are things where I think every ethnic church

01:18:23.150 - 01:18:38.080

has to be able to do 20 years, every 20, 15, 20 years, because the culture is changing so quickly, and you can't just assume, well, my kids will come back, right? The–the young—the kids coming back from

01:18:38.080 - 01:18:52.440

college are coming back. And I'm going, like, we—of all things, we see the opposite trend, right? They're–they’re–they’re not coming back. And that-that's–that's a huge issue, ‘cause, you know, our, our demographic are the boomers at this point.

01:18:53.550 - 01:19:06.630

And they're, again, I mean, like, just–just by sheer age, they have 20 years, 20 years left, you know? And so if you don't start thinking about Gen X and millennials,

01:19:06.630 - 01:19:18.070

then you are setting yourself up for failure. Right. And do you see like, like, personally, do you see the Asian-American aspect of CBC kind of decaying over time?

01:19:19.050 - 01:19:31.150

Right? You–you mean Asian-Am—Asian-American identity? Or the Asian-American people going to CBC? I guess not necess—yeah, I guess more like identity and that kind of like flavor that was there in the beginning?

01:19:31.440 - 01:19:43.130

To answer that, I–I would actually say no, right? I–I don't think it's as obvious or–or it's as explicit to be like, oh, hey, you know, we're going here because we're Asian-American. Right? I–I think the newer

01:19:43.130 - 01:19:57.250

generations, especially millennials, Gen Z's, hopefully, they're going to this church because of what the church stands for, more so than the Asian-American-ness of it, right? I-I-I'm of the opinion that like, hey,

01:19:58.340 - 01:20:09.860

I don't think you need to be ashamed of being Asian-American. I think there are definite, you know, advantages, especially towards missions and contextualizations and stuff, that, you know, hey, we are–we are who we are for a reason.

01:20:10.320 - 01:20:25.030

But that doesn't def—that's not our first identifier. So, but again, you're gonna have very different generational conversations with that, depending on who you ask. Yeah. And so does CBC engage in any, like, planting?

01:20:26.780 - 01:20:43.380

Church planting initiatives? Man, good question. Explicitly, no. Partnering, I would say yeah, I mean, the Costa Rica, that was part of a church planning effort, and I—you know, it's still ongoing, with Luis

01:20:43.380 - 01:20:53.840

and L. A. Ranch. So there- there's small efforts here and there. It's not strategic. Mhm, right. And how did CBC come to partner up with like, HCC, FBCC?

01:20:53.840 - 01:21:06.160

Because they all were kind of like planted by HCC. Yeah, it depends. I think depends who’s on–who's on staff, is that person decides

01:21:06.160 - 01:21:19.120

how, how tied they are with other churches. So my—again, philosophy of ministry is for the youth ministry, the moment I showed up was, I wanted to do a monthly visitation

01:21:19.650 - 01:21:32.870

with the rest of the Asian-American youth pastors in Houston, because–because we do camp together, but also because our friends—our–our people know each other. So we want to make sure that we're sharing resources and stuff. But then also, I drew a circle

01:21:32.870 - 01:21:48.000

around CBC on Google. And I was like, alright, find me all the churches within a five mile radius, or 10 mile radius. And I said, hey, I want to–I want to know what they're doing. It's—I want to partner with them. And then I go, hey, where–where are my largest

01:21:48.000 - 01:21:56.650

constituents of students? Right? It's Sugar Land, Cy-Fair, and so I'm going, okay, what churches are their friends going to? So, start to reach out to their

01:21:56.650 - 01:22:08.030

youth pastors to be like, hey, what do you guys see over there, what's happening over there? You know, how are you all dealing with prom and all this type of stuff, so we–we it–it–it depends on the person, on

01:22:08.350 - 01:22:24.860

how much and how close they are tied with all the other churches. Yeah. And do you have any connections with like Korean churches? I mean, it's—so Pete Chung of KCPC and Katy, we try to meet up every once in a while,

01:22:25.210 - 01:22:41.180

and we do that. Seoul Baptist or New Life up in Cy-Fair, we connected quite a bit because the youth pastor there was my wedding officiant and my mentor, but he–he–he left not too long ago.

01:22:41.180 - 01:22:55.040

So I haven’t really caught up with him. The Korean churches are a little bit different than the Chinese churches in terms of networking, right, specifically, and we-we've talked about this with Pete and we're just like,

01:22:55.040 - 01:23:09.290

hey, we need to do better partnering with Asian American churches. Right, yeah. And are you part of PAACT? I? Or CBC? I mean, like, so we, I–I used

01:23:09.290 - 01:23:26.400

to, the only reason why I'm not is just because of timing, alright, it’s just where–where CBC is at is just, we don't have resources to–to devote to it. But again, I-I-I've been to some PAACT meetings, I–I–I do render, I do all that type of stuff.

01:23:26.450 - 01:23:40.900

So I–I mean, I–I want, I want to be in conversation with Jason and those guys on PAACT. But also extend that to California and to–to Boston, to Chicago. Just really connecting with Asian churches all around the US.

01:23:41.360 - 01:23:52.170

Yeah. And going kind of back to youth ministry, what's your, like, main vision for youth ministry? That’s a good question. Like, if I could dream?

01:23:52.660 - 01:24:08.440

Oh okay, like a dream. So here's–here's–here’s my, I call this my golden unicorn. All right? So my dream, this is a crazy dream, is what if, right, what if I get a kid and their

01:24:08.580 - 01:24:20.780

parents starting sixth grade, okay, like they–they jump in, and they're bought in. They're just like, whatever you want to do, let's just do it, alright? So that's already a big what if. What if I get a kid from sixth grade and we train them

01:24:22.300 - 01:24:38.350

all the way to junior year, okay, like, I mean—and train them: theology, doctrine, leadership, counseling. It's a well-rounded worldview with all of the tools—and again, this is what adolescence is, to allow them to go into

01:24:38.380 - 01:24:49.870

independence so they–they can flourish as a–as a individual, right? So what if we did that within a Christian worldview, sixth to junior year along with their parents.

01:24:50.730 - 01:25:05.960

By senior year, start to go—start to pray and identify what are some colleges around the world that have zero to little no Christian influence on their college campus, right?

01:25:07.070 - 01:25:18.930

What if, like—and so we’re like, hey, there's a place in Brussels, right? Or there's a place in middle of Ohio or Wisconsin, right?

01:25:18.930 - 01:25:31.680

They have nothing. There's like, thousand people on their college campus. And I go, what if that senior is mature enough to go, hey, I'm going to get my degree, right, in engineering or

01:25:31.680 - 01:25:45.500

accounting or teaching or whatever, right, or like psychology. But I'm–I’m–I’m going to be the Christian presence on that campus. And what I would love to do is to have four or five youth ministries who are

01:25:45.550 - 01:26:00.840

thinking this way, and go—oh, sorry, my battery just went nuts. Sorry. What–what if, what if my, my students connected with four or five other youth groups and said, okay, there's a

01:26:00.840 - 01:26:16.080

college in the middle of Wisconsin, and we are going to apply there together, right, the five, six of us, and we're going to be purposeful day one, when we jump into campus, right, as a Christian presence.

01:26:16.350 - 01:26:23.770

I'm like, mind blowing. ‘Cause I'm like, everyone wants to do missions, right? Like overseas missions. And there's nothing wrong with that.

01:26:23.770 - 01:26:33.000

But I'm like, why not double it up, because you're still getting the college education. But now you have a purpose on campus. And I'm not saying people who go to campus don’t have a purpose.

01:26:33.430 - 01:26:46.320

But I'm going, like, man, like, UT, there's a gazillion of really good Christian ministries there. Right? A&M, right, U of H, Rice, like, there's tons of it. But I'm going like if–if I can get a kid to start really thinking

01:26:46.320 - 01:26:58.570

about the gravity of what they're buying into with this faith, then, man, why do they have to wait till they're 20 something or 30 something to start doing something real with their faith? I'm going, it's already

01:26:58.570 - 01:27:09.810

a natural progression to go to college campuses anyways, or to go to college for most kids. Why not put down an eternal and a significant weight on this, you know what I mean?

01:27:09.810 - 01:27:21.490

So that's my golden unicorn. I— it's a hard sell. It’s because—and–and I’ve told, I’ve told my church, I'm going, hey, as long as you have me on staff, that's what I'm really driving for.

01:27:22.470 - 01:27:37.830

And so I've already started to talk to the fifth grade parents to be like, hey, this is what your kid, if your kid is coming to the youth group, this is what, this is what we're—all of the programming is supposed to lead them to this golden unicorn. So we're kind of on year

01:27:37.890 - 01:27:51.360

three of taking it seriously. Mhm, I see, and so like what have been, like, some specific programs? So I mean, yeah, so if–if the goal is to send them out, then I'm going, okay, what–what age range

01:27:51.360 - 01:28:05.940

should I start thinking about stuff? So theologically, you know, small building blocks as a middle schooler, developmental stuff more as a sophomore, junior, leadership principles in high school,

01:28:06.460 - 01:28:18.740

counseling techniques in high school—upper, upper classmen type of years, right? Building the heart for this stuff, probably eighth grade, ninth grade type of thing. Social development, right?

01:28:19.130 - 01:28:34.330

Personal and interpersonal connections and holding conversations, that is sixth grade, man. I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get that person—‘cause I'm like, you can't lead a small group unless you can actually hold a conversation. And so we're trying to train a lot of our Gen

01:28:34.330 - 01:28:51.710

Z middle schoolers to talk, right? And so, I mean, it's a lot of deconstruction early, and then trying to reconstruct that. Again, it's, it's pretty difficult, right? But again, when I first started, the–the pattern

01:28:51.710 - 01:29:04.430

for youth ministry was entertain my kids, teach them a couple of good moral lessons, and make sure nothing's set on fire. And you've done your job. And I'm like, you don't–you don't need any type of training to do that.

01:29:04.590 - 01:29:19.270

Right? And I'm like, and–and I think, I–I think, I think it's, I think it's insulting to students too, right? To give them second grade, third grade Sunday school, or some kind of, you know, some kind of second grade stuff

01:29:19.270 - 01:29:32.860

while they're taking AP, AP US history and calculus, and I'm like, but you're feeding them like second grade material, come on, like that—I'd be insulted. And so, so I–I–I vowed to change how

01:29:32.860 - 01:29:47.400

youth ministry was ran for at least whatever I can handle. Mhm, yeah. And so how have you like, what have been some of your strategies to create an environment where the youth at CBC can socialize among each other and

01:29:47.490 - 01:29:59.050

create like lasting relationships outside of church? Well, that's, that's a little bit more difficult because I–I–I tell them, I'm like, look, just because you're

01:29:59.050 - 01:30:11.030

part of the youth group, I don't expect you guys to be best friends, right? ‘Cause what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to kill this misnomer that like, hey, you're part of a youth group, you guys all got to know each other and, you know, make these relationships.

01:30:11.070 - 01:30:25.630

And hopefully they do, right? ‘Cause I'm doing a wedding for two of my youth who met in youth group, right? I'm doing their wedding next—two weeks from now. And that happens, but I'm just going like, hey, biblical community

01:30:25.910 - 01:30:38.540

isn't about a group of people who look like you, think like you, act like you, and you're—is around your same age, that's not community. Community in a church is those who are centered around the gospel. And you should—because what

01:30:38.540 - 01:30:51.170

happens is they drop out, and they don't want to find a church post college, because it doesn't mimic what they experienced in college. Right? And I'm going, like, their definition for community is people who

01:30:52.170 - 01:31:03.250

have been around for 24/7, and we've just small grouped it up. And I'm like, well, that doesn't really happen inside of a generational church. So what we've tried to do as a strategy to prevent that, number

01:31:03.250 - 01:31:15.240

one is really to kind of do church membership, to help them understand what Biblical church membership is. And then number two, surround them with adults, right? Have grandparents who serve with the youth

01:31:15.240 - 01:31:28.000

ministry, that type of stuff, ‘cause I'm like, they don't want their parents in, but I'm like, you need them. You know? If you can't–you can't handle talking to an adult, then I'm like, you're screwed for interviews,

01:31:28.170 - 01:31:39.440

right? Like, you-you-you're—it's–it’s ignorance pooling ignorance, when everyone around you is one year apart from you and they all agree with you, right? Let's just, there's no growth in that.

01:31:40.290 - 01:31:51.520

So we, we force the issue, we try to at least. Mhm, yeah, that's true. And I guess speaking more like COVID, how has that impacted the youth?

01:31:53.120 - 01:32:08.950

Yeah. Man, it's, it sucks. I mean, taken this generation of, again—and you gotta think of when COVID hit. You had George Floyd, you had some massive Supreme Court cases,

01:32:09.630 - 01:32:24.750

you have such a—you have a lot of mental health issues on the rise. And it's not just on the rise, but it was made more evident and obvious these last couple years. And so COVID hit almost at the perfect storm,

01:32:25.490 - 01:32:42.220

right? When all of these issues were happening, COVID shows up and pretty much forces people to face kind of their worst fears. And so we were dealing with

01:32:42.220 - 01:32:55.270

that by really making sure that our people were checked up on, you know? And so luckily, we built up the structure to where we had a hand, we–we had oversight for every single youth in our youth group.

01:32:55.770 - 01:33:03.910

So at any moment, I can be like, hey, what's so and so doing? And how are they, how are they mentally doing? Or how they physically doing? Or, you know, what do they need?

01:33:04.120 - 01:33:16.740

And so we had–we had structures built up for that. In that case, it was good. I think for the most part, maybe a third of them enjoyed COVID, just because they are more introverted, and they

01:33:16.740 - 01:33:29.960

thrived by ind— being independent. The other third, they adapted, right? They're just like, hey, look, this sucks and it's inconvenient, but you know, I can–I can get through it, I–I think they're more antsy and

01:33:30.250 - 01:33:48.350

anxious about that. Another third is really—that's–that's the one I'm worried about. They got a lot of their social stimulation from a break from an abusive household, they didn't have the processing or even the–the

01:33:48.740 - 01:34:02.490

guardrails of–of thinking and pulling them out of depression and anxiety without school and stuff. And so those are the ones that we worried about the most when this whole thing happened. And also, we knew

01:34:02.490 - 01:34:14.430

that there was a, there's a, about a—about 40% of our youth that we knew that we were going to lose connections, because of the trajectory prior to COVID. Where we’re like, we're seeing you very

01:34:14.430 - 01:34:25.950

sporadically, and then all of a sudden, COVID just pushed them over the edge. And we're like, we can't even get ahold of them anymore. Right. Yeah. And what about in terms of like, spiritual health? I don't know if you like have any

01:34:25.950 - 01:34:40.420

observations, but what are you like, most worried about there? No, I mean, I-I've been telling parents, and I've been telling other youth pastors, I'm like, this is really a front row seat of how your kid's going to do spiritually in college.

01:34:40.850 - 01:34:49.850

Right? When no one's forcing them to spiritually grow. How are they going to do, right? And so, I–I try to identify, well, those who call

01:34:50.080 - 01:35:04.680

themselves Christian, those are the ones who are gonna have to own it first, right? And I'm like, honestly, it's 50%, right, are gonna maybe continue. The other–other 50% is most likely going

01:35:04.830 - 01:35:15.860

to fizzle out into nominalism. Right? So it's just, this was just a litmus test. I mean, we–we–we kind of saw the writing on

01:35:16.020 - 01:35:30.300

the wall. And we realized, you know, this is–this is not gonna scare us, this is just gonna reveal what's always been there. And now we're just like, parents, man, it's not our—like, you can't blame us anymore. You know what I mean? I think that was, that was a huge revelation for a lot of parents.

01:35:30.400 - 01:35:44.470

They're like, hey, my kids not growing, I'm like, dude, you're at home with them, like help them, you know? ‘Cause and– and–and that, and that's a huge, that was a huge—Asian American parents, that was a kick in the pants for them. Because they're realizing, I don't know how to talk

01:35:44.470 - 01:35:53.640

to my kids, right? I don't know how my kid is feeling. I don't know how to disciple my kid. And I'm just like, because they–they–they leaned on the

01:35:53.640 - 01:36:08.560

church and the youth leader so much, that they don't know how to do this. And I'm like, hey, we've been trying to give you the tools. But now, like, we can't do much more than virtual stuff every once in a while, you know? Yeah, that makes sense.

01:36:10.220 - 01:36:21.420

So I guess moving away from CBC and going into your podcast with the other— My hundred subscribers? Yeah, we’re blown–we’re blown away.

01:36:22.170 - 01:36:33.040

So what is your podcast? You can tell the audience. Is–is this, is this a plug? Nice. So we are called Collab Houston, look us up.

01:36:33.640 - 01:36:50.480

Very popular. Honestly, we, we've been meeting as a group of youth pastors for the Asian churches for the last 10 years, 10, 11 years. And this was a survival tactic more so than a strategy, because we were like, we're

01:36:50.480 - 01:37:00.070

dying here. We need to meet up once a month. And we just need a, we need a place to vent, right? It's just, it’s–it's like, you know, we would meet at Hong Kong Cafe in Chinatown. And we would just—a lot

01:37:00.070 - 01:37:12.490

of it was like, dear God, how are you surviving? Don't quit yet. You know, who–who's dating who in whose youth group? It's homecoming season, why is my boy asking like four of your girls out?

01:37:12.490 - 01:37:25.310

And so it's just, it-it-it’s real—like this what we do, actually do, so we've been, we've been always saying, hey, we should record our conversations, and for a lot of it was—record—and we're like, I don't care if no one

01:37:25.310 - 01:37:39.660

watches, I want to record this so that at least I have a reference point of what I was thinking on this topic, right? Or this–this type of thing. Because for me, it was mainly to go, if another Asian

01:37:39.660 - 01:37:50.510

American youth pastor started today. Right? I don't want them to start from scratch. Because, like, inevitably, like it's just

01:37:50.540 - 01:38:02.670

the stats are against them. And I'm like, I'm trying to build that guy or that girl up as best as I can. And if they have the resources that we've already built out, then that's for them. So that's what Collab Houston really lays down.

01:38:03.010 - 01:38:20.170

We really want to start hitting a lot of issues like the future of Asian American church, cross generational parenting, how does that work, right? Dealing with mental health, working with sexuality inside the Asian American church, all of these topics is, we want, like, we–we

01:38:20.170 - 01:38:32.550

think, okay, well, we have the experience, and we have kind of the–the research. So how can we say this on an Asian American youth ministry’s level? Because there's nothing like this out there.

01:38:33.110 - 01:38:45.920

Mhm, right, yeah. And so what pastors, what youth pastors do you partner with? What churches? All of them. All of them. So I mean, there's Katy, HCC, Fort Bend,

01:38:49.240 - 01:39:05.630

CLCC, Clear Lake Chinese Church, we do West Houston Vietnamese Church at times. So it was just, you know, it's–it’s—and it’s, honestly, it's just us friends, it’s just people that, that we've grown up with, right?

01:39:05.800 - 01:39:18.360

So… Yeah, and so do you guys do anything else other than podcasts or recording yourselves? We…we, we do camps.

01:39:18.420 - 01:39:31.930

We do trainings together at times? Yeah, we–we–we try, we try, we try to pool resources to do ecu—not ecumenical, but we do more kind of conferences together and trainings, just so that it's not just one group.

01:39:32.700 - 01:39:44.590

But what–what we've tried to do when we—it's a normal year is we try to counter plan to where we go, hey, CBC is gonna partner with HCC this month. HCC is gonna partner with West Houston, or West Houston’s gonna partner with Katy this other month, so

01:39:44.590 - 01:39:57.700

we're always trying to intermingle our students so that they're not just siloed in their own little bubble. Right, and so when did like Collab Houston formally start? Were you guys always called Collab

01:39:57.770 - 01:40:09.480

Houston or was that just kind of like— Pretty new, man, I think it happened during quarantine. Right, yeah. I see, and speaking about camp, do you want to

01:40:09.560 - 01:40:23.840

speak about Discovery and Impact? So how— sorry, yeah. So Discovery and Impact was an initiative made by Houston Chinese Church and West Houston Chinese Church like 20 years ago, something

01:40:25.500 - 01:40:35.890

like that. No, more than 20 years ago. And the–the goal was to have a Christian camp, a church camp for the Chinese churches. And the reason why was mainly

01:40:36.040 - 01:40:51.770

because of demographics and because of finances, right? We charge way less than most youth camps across the spread. And so they started there, it's served a lot of people. Our Discovery camp is our middle

01:40:51.770 - 01:41:06.150

school camp, and we, we serve the incoming sixth graders all the way to the outgoing eighth graders, and then Impact is ninth graders to graduating seniors. We rely heavily on counselors, and a lot of them are

01:41:06.430 - 01:41:23.700

college students who come back and feel like youth are important, and they want to serve students. And so we have camp typically at the end of July or the beginning of August. But for us, the reason why we,

01:41:24.150 - 01:41:40.820

CBC, that we partner with this is really to kind of pull together kind of this ethnic identity, but also Christian identity once a year and go, hey, we–we–we can learn, we can fellowship, and we can kind of get to know each other so that, you know, it's a once a

01:41:40.820 - 01:41:52.130

year type of thing where, you know, you can see your other churches and stuff together. Right, yeah. And so how have you seen these camps change throughout your time as a youth pastor?

01:41:53.180 - 01:42:06.100

I mean, philosophy. We–we–we tweak programming all the time, we always start with vision, what- what's the purpose? We have, you know, a-and we're trying to balance the, the

01:42:06.100 - 01:42:19.310

content, but then also the fun, right? We–we–we talk about needs of certain years, right? So again, if the hot topic right now, or what everyone's going through is, you know, sexuality, or mental health, suicide,

01:42:19.310 - 01:42:34.820

depression, these type of things, then we try to highlight it more, give, give more airspace to that. So it really depends, I mean, every year is a little bit different. But under my watch, you know, we're trying to go, you

01:42:34.820 - 01:42:46.930

know, we–we want content to be as best as we can make it. Right? ‘Cause, you know, now we're held accountable for the quality of the content, so we want to make sure that it's there.

01:42:47.610 - 01:43:01.240

Yeah. And how have you seen the—these camps influence students? Because they do go for like, seven years of their life. I mean, honestly, for a lot of students, this is a, this is a breath of fresh and air just because, you

01:43:01.240 - 01:43:12.990

know, like, school has been hard, right? They–they may not be a social butterfly at their schools. And, you know, this–this—it–it gives them something. And, you know, all summer, most of our kids are, you

01:43:12.990 - 01:43:23.120

know, in camps, other camps, they're studying, they’re summer school, they're working and stuff, and this is a chance for them just to be a kid again. And really not—and for a lot of the kids it's—and

01:43:23.860 - 01:43:38.070

they are active in churches, and they're serving, but it gives them a chance to kind of just be a student, right, be fed. And this is a really good time where they can kind of exhale. And, and also, I would also

01:43:38.070 - 01:43:53.740

say, even be inspired by the college, college and adult counselors to go, hey, I can't talk to my parents at my house, I don't feel like—I have no one at church I can really open up to, but you're a camp counselor, I don't really know you.

01:43:53.740 - 01:44:10.550

But I got some really big baggage that I need to kind of, you know, walk through. And camp is, sometimes for some of these kids, it's once a year kind of a lifeline. Right, yeah. And how has like directing the camps, going through the process and being at the camp

01:44:10.590 - 01:44:22.890

for you changed, influenced your life for yourself? That—it’s–it’s–it’s, now I-I-I’m married with two kids. And so it's like, you know, and–and plus I

01:44:22.890 - 01:44:34.510

had to—there's a stretch where I had to go through my doctoral classes doing camp, and so it's just, it–it gets, physically it gets harder as I get older. Right? I mean, love camp.

01:44:34.510 - 01:44:43.600

I love the purpose of camp, but just physically, I—it's hard man, like my back hurts. Like I can't do some of the games. I'm just like, I'm getting old.

01:44:45.650 - 01:44:56.220

So—and–and again, I, you know, I think every youth pastor has that crisis of going, like, is it my time? Am I–am I aging out of this? And so for me, it's almost existential sometimes.

01:44:57.850 - 01:45:11.960

But honestly, for me, I–I—the reason why I personally love camp is because it puts me on the ground with my kids. Right? Because throughout the year I’m–I'm leading, I'm teaching them, it’s very high level. But at camp, they

01:45:11.960 - 01:45:27.240

get to see Justin as the goofy one, like, oh, he can still have fun with us. Oh, he's semi-athletic, right? Like he can, he can run, you know, like, you know, he can hang out with us, he can make jokes and oh, he

01:45:27.240 - 01:45:42.740

actually cares about other people, right, like other churches, like, you know, like, so it's–it’s also for me kind of to go, hey, we have a pretty good reputation with all the other churches, and so don't—and–and it's not just about me, but even our CBC counselors, it’s like, hey, don't, don't take

01:45:42.740 - 01:45:56.740

advantage of who you guys have back at home. Right? And I think that's—it's another lesson of going, hey, just, you guys have a lot of good stuff going on at church, but you can't see it because it's, you know, it's expected, it’s–it's part of your routine.

01:45:57.170 - 01:46:09.710

But when you get outside of that bubble, you're like, oh okay, I could—our people aren't so bad, right? Like, you know. Right. Yeah, I think after unseeing for three days, I felt that pain, I

01:46:09.790 - 01:46:25.790

felt like I needed more time. So I guess, like, what have been some key factors that help you construct your own identity? And not only just ethnic identity, or spiritual identity, but just like,

01:46:26.550 - 01:46:42.640

who you identify as. I mean, obviously, past experiences always le-lead into that, you know. I mean, you know, I'm a product of my successes, my failures, but also my mentors.

01:46:44.150 - 01:46:55.170

So that-that's a key thing. Like to me, at the end of the day, I–I–I want to enjoy life, right? I want to, I'm the type that's like, hey, you give me

01:46:55.170 - 01:47:06.290

something to do, I want–I want to do the best I can. And for me, I'm just like, hey, I, I want to be, you know, a–a good neighbor. Right? I want to, I want to have fun, I want to eat good food, I want to do the

01:47:06.290 - 01:47:21.670

things that like, hey, I just, I just enjoy doing. And so, you know, and–and–and what I want to teach the youth is, I'm—me at church should be the same as me eating at Chinatown, or me going to the movies,

01:47:22.210 - 01:47:33.630

like, hopefully, I'm not any different, where, you know, like, no matter where you see me, it's just, you know, I just—I might wear different clothes, but you know, who I am, my personality, how I talk to you, you know, I'm just the same.

01:47:33.860 - 01:47:47.860

So if I'm, if I'm talking to a–a 40 something year old, I'm saying the same stuff, right? So, you know, I–I want to, I want to keep my, I want to keep a good pulse on culture. I want to be a student of culture.

01:47:49.820 - 01:48:02.270

Mainly for myself, right, just to be informed. But also for the students, like, I– I–I have to know a lot of different cultural markers. And I need to, I need to be a student, so I'm always

01:48:02.270 - 01:48:19.560

studying. And so I’m–I'm back in school again. So I know that there's, there's aspects even of my own life and my ministry where it's very incomplete. And I could have stopped a long time ago, but I just know

01:48:19.560 - 01:48:33.870

that I just have to keep learning. So whether that's edX courses or Coursera, right, or whatever, or going back to get a formal degree, you know, I just need to make sure that I'm always learning

01:48:33.870 - 01:48:47.340

somehow, and reading, and reading people I disagree with, for sure. And having a lot of those, and–and really connecting with people outside of my sphere and my own ethnicity. I think that's—that to me, that's huge.

01:48:48.100 - 01:48:58.780

Right? And again, I–I don't want to—and again, and hopefully, if my youth hear this, like if they can see this, it’s just like, hey, like, I'm meeting people because they're people. I'm not doing this because I'm

01:48:58.780 - 01:49:10.820

trying to virtual—virtue signaling, you know? And so it's just part of who I am. I just don't—I, you know, that's–that's, I never want to be accused of virtue sig—virtue signaling.

01:49:11.230 - 01:49:19.250

And ‘cause I'm like, that's just, if I'm talking to these people, I'm talking to these people. I'm not, you know, they're my friends. And so— and whether they're Christian or not.

01:49:20.370 - 01:49:32.720

Right, yeah. So focusing on your personal life more, you mentioned you were married with two kids. Would you say that parenthood had changed your iden-identity?

01:49:33.020 - 01:49:46.340

Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Marriage is the fast track to growth or maturity. And then you throw in two kids, and you're just like, yeah, no, I got—I–I don't know what I'm doing. Because my–my

01:49:46.340 - 01:50:01.450

kids are—so we got married later in life, whatever that means. We got–we got married when we were 30. And so we knew that we wanted to have kids as soon as possible, right? Because we, I mean, we were

01:50:01.450 - 01:50:14.350

pretty independent, and we're both very alpha in our personality profiles. So, you know, we–we live very independently and then putting us together, put two alphas together in the same household, it's, you know,

01:50:14.900 - 01:50:31.510

it makes for very fun, easy decision making, but then it can just, it can go nuts. And then our first child, Ella, is, she–she—it was two years after we were married. And then Mia was 18 months after Ella.

01:50:31.510 - 01:50:46.310

So the—we never really had a time to breathe between Ella and Mia, and it's almost like, it's almost like reading the manual as you're having the product. Not saying my kids are products, but yeah.

01:50:47.670 - 01:51:03.170

So yes, parenting changes everything, especially how I pastor. Like, I am way more sympathetic to parents than I am five years ago. So… What are some parenting goals that you set for yourself?

01:51:04.660 - 01:51:19.450

For myself? Sa-same thing I was saying earlier, it's just like, I–I–I want, I want my kids to really enjoy life, right? Like, really, really enjoy—and–and to who they are, who they're going to

01:51:19.450 - 01:51:30.100

be, you know? And to, to, to have really good fun experiences that I can, that I don't have to manufacture, but that I can kind of usher them into.

01:51:30.100 - 01:51:44.910

So it's like, I can't wait for the days where I can take my kids to the youth-like stuff, right? Like cheer them on, on like a baseball game or soccer game or whatever else like that, bring them to mission trips, and it's—it—these are like the perks of the job

01:51:44.910 - 01:51:57.030

that I can't wait to allow my—'cause, again, I experience things because of my profession that no other people get to do, you know what I mean? And I'm like, I can't wait for my kids to enjoy some of that stuff.

01:51:57.910 - 01:52:12.490

And so it-it-it's so hard being a pastor's kid. But it comes with so much, like it—they're going to be so scrutinized by so many people, that's not their fault, it’s just because of who dad is.

01:52:12.960 - 01:52:26.680

But they're going to be loved by more people than most kids get to, you know, just because of the, ‘cause, ‘cause of where I'm at, you know? And so already, we just seen like, you know, Ella's gonna turn six, and I’m she, she

01:52:26.680 - 01:52:40.010

has so many people loving her and taking care of her, and she has so many aunties and uncles, and like my four—so I'm trying to train my youth to see me as a legitimate dad, but also to—for them to love my kids, because I'm like, hey,

01:52:40.510 - 01:52:53.990

you're not just my youth, you're–you’re–you’re setting the stage for my kids. And I need you to be the most mature version of you, because I need you to take care of my kids. Like, that's, I'm training you up

01:52:53.990 - 01:53:08.250

to do that, too. So I can't wait for like, that's, like, you know, those are fun. I–I worry, right? As a dad of two girls, obviously, ‘cause I know the idiots like myself who

01:53:08.250 - 01:53:23.490

are out there in–in teenage, adolescent world, so that terrifies me to no end. Especially growing up in this day and age. But I'm like, you know, I can't wait to talk to her about dating and all of the

01:53:23.490 - 01:53:38.040

experience that I've had as a youth pastor, I'm just like, I can't wait to—I obviously know it's gonna be different with my own kids, right? But I can't wait to start real—like it's, I get to disciple two girls.

01:53:38.190 - 01:53:50.890

And it’s–it's my job and my privilege to really invest all I, all of my knowledge, all of my experience, to pour into these two little human beings. And they get the front row seat to all of that.

01:53:51.090 - 01:54:04.530

So that's—that–that gets me really excited. Nice, did you and your wife have any like different aspirations for your children? Or were you pretty much like united? I mean, they're–they're five

01:54:04.530 - 01:54:19.230

and four. At this point, it's like stay alive, flush toilets. So our aspirations are like, you know, hey, just don't kill yourself at this moment. We’re–we’re pretty similar as far as styles

01:54:19.400 - 01:54:35.160

of going, like, let's just see what they’re, let's see what they want to do, right, kind of expose them to everything and hey, you–you decide, right? So if you want to play the ukulele, then that's fine. And if you want to—I–I mean, I, we joke, you know, we

01:54:35.160 - 01:54:47.050

have our, kind of our personal goals. I want their instruments to be a guitar because it's cheap and portable. Plus, it's–it’s–it's more long—not saying piano

01:54:47.430 - 01:55:00.220

and violin are not long lasting, but it's–it's more versatile down the road than anything. So I want them to do guitar. For their fine arts, I would like them to culinary, right, feel that's–that's very, very practical.

01:55:00.350 - 01:55:14.810

And it feeds us, right, we are the recipients of that. And then I would like their sport to be Krav Maga or some kind of MMA type of thing. Something where it's really, really practical and beneficial to my two

01:55:14.810 - 01:55:25.950

girls. Right? Because if they can put someone in a chokehold that shouldn't be touching them, then I–I–I could go to sleep pretty safe, or if they can, if they know some Krav Maga, then that’d

01:55:25.990 - 01:55:38.800

be sweet. Those are some very good plans. Right, right, right? So we're gonna—right now, the plan is to incept them with these–these goals.

01:55:39.360 - 01:55:53.320

Like just, like, oh man, so we're just—it—we’re–we’re doing this purposefully, but they really love watching YouTube cooking channels. So who knows, I just got gotta show them some Krav Maga

01:55:53.440 - 01:56:11.020

stuff. What type of people do you hope your children will become? I mean, I hope they, I hope they find their identity in, in Jesus. Right? I-I feel like if–if–if the root

01:56:11.250 - 01:56:25.510

issue, if the core thing is resolved, then at that point, I'm like, hey, hopefully they'll–they’ll—the choices then flow out of, you know, the core and the roots. So that's–that's really, that's really the prayer that

01:56:25.510 - 01:56:39.940

we've been having since day one, right? That if their hearts change, then everything will work out, right? But I want—I mean, again, I want them to be reputable. I want them to be known as people who are really

01:56:40.190 - 01:56:59.110

fun, who are independent women. Right? I mean, they think for themselves, they're strong, I want them to be extremely strong, and not–not like not, not–not–not like fighting or like jerks, but I want them to be

01:56:59.110 - 01:57:17.350

strong. I want them to be confident in who, who they are as girls and as Asian-Americans. But I want them to really, you know, have a–a grounding in family and you know, just these, these structures that, that are, that–that contribute to human flourishing, right?

01:57:17.350 - 01:57:28.250

I want them to be generous, and I want them to be funny. I want them to have a really good sense of humor about–about the world, but about themselves too, and not taking themselves so seriously.

01:57:29.040 - 01:57:41.630

Yeah, I can train them. Just kidding. I guess I just had some like concluding questions. What have been like your proudest accomplishments, do you think, looking back?

01:57:42.610 - 01:57:55.380

I know, scary question. Finishing my first doctorate was mind blowing. I don't know. Just because I started, I started and I was single with no kids, with no house.

01:57:55.930 - 01:58:11.610

And I finished with a mortgage payment, a wife, and two kids. And I have no clue how I finished that, I—like, like looking back, I'm like, I'm pretty sure my dissertation is trash. But for whatever reason I defended it and got it published.

01:58:11.610 - 01:58:24.250

So that-that-that's a huge one for me. I just, I don't know why I'm going back for number two. So that's huge. Another thing is being able to

01:58:24.250 - 01:58:38.360

speak on certain stages. Those are some pretty big, memorable things where I'm going, I'm just looking back kind of through past speaking engagements. And I'm just like, yeah, that’s just wild, all right, like,

01:58:39.250 - 01:58:51.880

how did that come about? And, you know, being able to go fly to Malaysia and speak to a group that didn't even know me from the beginning, and taking a shot and just still having relationships with them

01:58:51.880 - 01:59:04.880

now, like, that’s–that's pretty crazy. Those are some, those are some really key highlights. And then making it past year 10 in youth ministry, I just, I–I knew, I knew my goal was seven years, ‘cause that-

01:59:04.980 - 01:59:19.840

that's a whole transitional phase, right? And I'm just like, that–that was already a stretch, but then making it to year 10, I was just like, this is uncharted, this is uncharted territory, and then being able to kind of speak into realms where we

01:59:19.840 - 01:59:32.010

don't get to play as Asian-Americans typically. So writing for certain journals, speaking at certain conferences, being on, getting invited to have a seat at the table, and being

01:59:32.910 - 01:59:50.250

influential. If I can, I was like, if I could start paving the way for other Asian-American youth ministers to have that voice, then I'm like, that's, that was huge. So but yeah, those are some,

01:59:50.300 - 02:00:04.280

those are some bigger ones. Publishing a children's book, that was also pretty big. Oh right, wait what was it about again? So the book, the book is called A Simple Reminder. And I was looking at like children's books

02:00:04.280 - 02:00:16.090

because I–I wanted to, like, read to the girls when they were young. And I was like, man, kid, kid Christian books, they're either really, really shallow or they're really, really intense. And I'm like, isn't

02:00:16.090 - 02:00:29.530

there like a picture book that's like, theologically deep, but also, like, easy? And I couldn't find it. So I was driving to work one day, and I'm like, I'm gonna write one. And so on my commute, I wrote a book.

02:00:30.070 - 02:00:43.240

And then I had my best friend in New York, he's a illustrator. And so he illustrated and got it published. I’m like, all right, apparently that’s how you get a book sold. That's pretty cool. I can read it to my child—my children.

02:00:45.350 - 02:00:57.930

Yeah, it’s sold out right now on Amazon. Oh wow, okay, sorry. Because there's only like 10 copies in publication. So I guess last thing, like, what advice would you give to the youth that are

02:00:57.930 - 02:01:07.740

living through this pandemic? And coming out of this pandemic? Like, what are some, yeah, what would be some advice you would give them to handle this situation?

02:01:07.740 - 02:01:21.920

Yeah, I think the first one is, and–and I got this from my mentor. It-it's–it’s, it is okay to not be okay. Right? But it's not okay to stay there. Right? It's okay to be, it's–it’s okay to not be okay.

02:01:22.390 - 02:01:33.250

But it's not okay to stay there. Meaning if you're struggling, you got to be honest with it, you got to be honest with yourself, right? But then you got to be honest with other people, you got to seek help.

02:01:33.960 - 02:01:41.730

So there's no shame in seeking help, and asking, and asking for help. And I'm like, and I–and I don’t know if that's a self- preservation thing, or an Asian thing, or whatever.

02:01:42.180 - 02:01:53.290

I think it's just a pride thing. Right? And so, man, if you–if you need help, go get help. Ask for people. And it's, and–and maybe, maybe it's small to you,

02:01:53.510 - 02:02:07.660

right? But you don't know what the—you don't know what the next thing might do. Right? ‘Cause you don't know if you're at the edge of the cliff, or you're at the, you're the middle, right? You're on like solid, the plateau or whatever, but you just don't know, like, ‘cause it–it could scaff—it can

02:02:07.660 - 02:02:20.890

fall really quickly. And so be humble, ask for help. That's the first big thing. Number two, learn to embrace the time that

02:02:20.890 - 02:02:30.370

we're in. Right? I think so many kids are just waiting to get back to normal. And I'm like, that-that's not a bad thing to ask for.

02:02:31.300 - 02:02:42.840

But you're still living in right now. So they're still good lessons, and there's still time that you're allotted to, ‘cause you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. Right? Like, you–you–you

02:02:42.890 - 02:02:51.660

have what you have now. And so stop, yes, it-it's okay to dream about the future. But don't miss out on what today has for you.

02:02:51.660 - 02:03:03.170

Right? The lessons, the people you can influence, right? The–the people who need you as a friend, like you still have that time. So don't, don't waste it. Right? So that-that'd–that’d be

02:03:03.170 - 02:03:21.150

number two. I guess number—the piggyback off number two is just spend your time wisely during, during these days, right? And I’m like, take advantage of what, what the good things that give you right?

02:03:21.150 - 02:03:35.980

Like, like, hey, a lot of people are stuck with their families. And maybe that's a, that's a great thing, to–to get to know who mom and dad are and start to develop some, to develop these things. So, you know, it,

02:03:36.110 - 02:03:48.370

use this time to study for the sake of learning, and not so much for the sake of a grade, right? I mean, like, honestly, because, you know, they're doing asynchronistic for like, half of the time anyways. So why not

02:03:48.400 - 02:03:59.440

learn things that you want to learn? And, you know, learn at this—for high schoolers and middle schoolers, while it's free, you know? Like one thing I wish I told my high school, middle

02:03:59.640 - 02:04:13.270

school self is, dude, like, call it undergrad or grad school, doctoral programs, like it's expensive. Right? I wish I would have learned things when, you know, it–it was accessible on the books I don’t have to pay for.

02:04:13.870 - 02:04:26.600

Yeah, that's true. Well, that's all I have. Emily, unless you have anything else? Nope, yeah, that's all I have too. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about, Justin?

02:04:28.430 - 02:04:42.100

I–I, I don’t know, I mean, is there anything else that you two want to ask? I mean— I think it was pretty solid. I think we covered a lot of territory. Yeah, okay, well thank you so much again.