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So today is October 17, 2020. And I'm Helen Pu here with Pastor Fred Tow from Houston Chinese Church. And I'll be interviewing him on behalf of Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University.

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So first, let's start–start off with your childhood. So where were you born, about when, and yeah. I was born in Hong Kong in

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1954, that's a long time ago. And that–that–that was where things started. My–my parents really had elementary school education.

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And during those early years, they were looking for opportunity for their–their children to do better. And that was the

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main reason why we immigrated into the United States when I was eight years old in–in–in the cul-in–in the Bay Area, in Oakland specifically. Mhm, yeah. And do you have any siblings?

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I have an older sister, and then I have a younger brother and younger sister. Okay, awesome. And so do you remember anything from your childhood in Hong Kong, specifically? Well, we–we lived

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on–on the, on the third floor, on a flat. And I–I remember that my school was across the street, directly across the street from where I live, which is, you know, pretty cool. And I–I remember when first time I saw

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jello, like man, what is that, you know, like, you know, we–we really didn't have refrigerators back in tho-those early years in a way, and things like that. I–I remember, you

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know, that it was just a, you know, a close knit family. Commitment to family was important as–as–as in the Chinese culture. Mhm, yeah. And did you go to church in Hong Kong when you were a child?

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No, no, di-didn't–didn't–didn't get that opportunity until I came to the States. Okay. And so when does—when exactly did you move to the US? When I was eight years old? My family mov-moved to Oakland.

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Okay. And did your parents have any other plan when they moved other than just, you know, more opportunities? That was the main–main thing. My grandfather was already here.

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My grandfather immigrated when he was in his late teens and worked in the restaurant. And, you know, we came over, my parents didn't have that much skill.

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So he followed footstep, my grandfather, worked in the restaurant very long hours. My–my mom worked as a seamstress, very long hours also. So we–we were by ourselves most of the time.

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But we understand, you know, that they–they–they made a lot of sacrifices for–for us so that we might be able to have that opportunity in the future. Yeah. And so you guys moved to Oak-Oakland, right?

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Oakland, California. Okay, great. And when did you guys start going to church? When you were- I started going to church when I was 10. My next door neighbor invited me to church and

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my parents thought it was a good idea that I, and I suppose my siblings, would be able to connect with some good people so called, some moral people, and that they might be able to have some

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positive influence on us. So that–that was the beginning. Right. And when did—so–so your parents didn't go to church with you guys? Or- No, no, my parents did not go to

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church. They–they worked very long hours. They–they worked almost–almost every day. So no, they're, they–they approved, of us going but no, they didn't join us.

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They were not Christians. Yeah. Okay. And so what was kind of the neighborhood in Oakland like for you, the ones that you kind of settled in? Well I–I, we–we lived in Oakland Chinatown.

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So ag-again, a little different than most people. It's immigrants. We were within our Chinese community. And so most of the people

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around were, you know, Chinese. Went to school, which was a couple of blocks from where I lived, Lincoln Elementary School. I would say maybe forty, fifty percent of the

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population were– were Chinese, I mean we were in Chinatown, the shops and all of, all of that. Yeah. And so were—did you guys have like a close relationship with your neighbors?

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Um, the rec, or–or landlord so call it, we—they had a boy the same age as myself and introduce–introduce me to, to go to church with so we–we–we had a pretty good relationship

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there. Besides that or other neighbors, we–we play around our neighborhood, but I don't know too much of the other–other neighbors. Mhm, yeah. And so how would you kind of describe the home that you grew up in? In the sense of what were some like values that your parents emphasized?

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Yeah. Well we, when we first came to the United States, we were relatively pretty poor. I mean, we didn't have much of anything I grew up needing to just be creative, go to backyard, find

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something and play, and we didn't, we didn't have that many toys. I never owned a bike. So valuing what you have, or learning to be frugal, learning to be responsible.

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I, again, we—parents were not around very much. So we had to kind of take care of ourselves. I guess we–we value

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them and–and their intentions, and, or–or, I guess, you know, we have great respect for our, for our parents, although they weren't around that much. Yeah. And so how has that kind of affected your relationship with your parents, just

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them kind of working long hours? Um, I–I have a very good relationship with my parents, I–I–I communicate with them weekly. Um, we–we have very good relationship, although in the earlier years, I–I–I

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sure wish I had more time w-with dad or mom. But I understood why, even though I was very young, I understood, and it wasn't something that I complained about.

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But I–I tried, you know, I was a fairly obedient child, you know, and respectful for them. And we–we have a very good relationship at this time.

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That's great. And so what were kind of like some–some entertainment, sources of entertainment for you and your siblings? There—you know, we watch TV kind of thing. But there's the school and there's a

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playground, that's a couple blocks from our home. And I–I was pretty involved with different sports. So I play a lot of different sports and go–go to the park or that

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playground there, engaging there in different sports activity. And just being creative. We didn't have too much entertainment. You have no such thing as YouTube or–or–or anything like that,

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Facebook. TV was the biggest thing. So we had, you know, a couple of channels, not like hundreds of channels right now. Yeah, that's true. And so what was kind of the demographic of the schools that you went

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to in Oakland? Um, you know, when I–I grew up, you know, in–in Chinatown area, so my elementary school, it was, you know, a good–good percentage of the students were Asians, so it was diverse.

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Um, then went–went to junior high. I wasn't that far away, less than a smaller percentage of Asians, but it was still–still pretty–pretty diverse. When I went to high school, uh, I

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was in a, in a, in a v-very diverse, prob-probably more African American high school that I attended. Asians,

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maybe five to ten percent. It was a smaller number of Asians in high school. Yeah, uh-huh. And have you ever kind of faced discrimination as an Asian student?

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Well you know in elementary school there were many of us are Asian. In middle school is li-little less but n-not too much. When I was in high school, some–some discrimination.

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They make fun of us, calling us different names. N-not a lot, just a little bit, I–I–I noticed. They–they respected Asians, Asian students. We–we were pretty good students.

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Mhm, right. And so kind of in high school, were you more academically focused? Or do you think you weren't that- Yeah, I–I was very academically focused, like, most

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Asians even today, but back in those days, again, you know, it was opportunity. My–my parents didn't receive much education whatsoever, and I believe I was the first to receive

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a college degree. So I was very–very focused academically during my high school, college, and so forth. Yeah. And so–so do you think your parents kind of had an influence, maybe

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an indirect influence, on your studies? Well I was pretty, I was pretty self-motivated. Um, you know, I, again, I understood the situation, and I–I was a pretty obedient child

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overall. I did hit books pretty hard. I, you know, I did, I did fairly well, in high school, I finished third in my class, and then went on, you know, to– to college and p-pretty focused with studies as well.

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Didn't get involved too much with other activities. You know, I was involved with sports and so forth when I was in high school. When I was in middle school, I ran track and did pretty

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well. And then when I was in high school, I played tennis. I did pretty well there too. But then when I started college, my parents said, no, you know, y-you need to totally focus on your study.

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So that–that–that was a change. Yeah. And so what college did you go to? I–I went to University of California, Berkeley, I went to Berkeley. Berkeley was just next to

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Oakland, where I was living. Right, and what kind of made you decide to go there? Well, it was one of the best universities in–in the state, but also in–in the nation. And that's

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where all the Asians went, so called. And it was close by to home. Actually, that was the only school I applied. I didn't apply to any other schools.

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If I didn't get in then I would've been in trouble. Yeah, and so did—was that kind of your parents' top choice for you too, or did they have something else in mind,

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You know, I–I–I appreciate my parents and again, I–I understood where they were coming from, and I, they never really pushed me to–to–to, to major in anything particular. They trusted me, and enc—of course

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encourage us to go to college, it didn't take too much encouragement, and, you know, just kinda like a given, concerned about school. It was one–one of the top universities in the area, so—and–and–and they didn't push me,

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like you, you should, you should do this, you should do that, and so forth. Although, like a good Asian, back in those days, and even today, um, you know, I went as a pre-med like, yeah, you know, you got to be doctor

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somehow, you know, some sort of field of doctor. And I–I–I was thinking, w-what is the easiest way to get, be-become a doctor, you know, and–and at that time, I did a lot of research and found out that you could be an optometrist in six years.

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You know. And I headed toward that direction, actually. Um, and, but yeah, the–the Lord, the Lord had–had other plans for me.

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Um, although I was very, I was very disciplined student. I worked very hard. That was a major focus of mine. But as I took different science classes, I didn't do as

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well as I need to. And that was just a way that God just redirected me. It-it was like taking exam, and misreading questions

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and so forth. But I did that regularly, you know, I couldn't stay in them. Um, I–I–I went back to something that I always enjoy, that–that was mathematics, and that–that was what I majored in, my grade

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shot up shortly after I made that change. Okay, I see. And so what about socially? How was that adjustment into college coming from, you know, your family background and then entering into that?

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You know, I grew up pretty, pretty sheltered. And I lived in North Oakland, which Berkeley is north of Oakland. So I was just, I was-I was pretty close to Berkeley.

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So it was a commuting college experience for me. So I didn't live on campus, I didn't really have a–a so called regular

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campus life, like most college students. I hit the books pretty hard. I–I went to school for classes and once done, I came home, you know, I, it–it—I–I

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wasn't that engaged in a lot of activities. In college, I was involved with a couple of Bible studies. Our church had a group on–on campus. And then there was another Christian group that I joined.

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So I kind of stay within that circle more than anything else during my college years. Right. Right. So–so were you just part of one minis—kind of ministry group?

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Was it like- I was more involved with one, and I was kind of participants in another. Oh, okay. I see. And kind of going back to the church that you went to an Oakland, was it

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predominantly like a Chinese church or? Yeah. Yeah, it–it was a, it was a Chinese church called Chinese Independent Baptist Church it was in Chinatown. It was, a-again, walk-walking distance.

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Um, it was a little bit different than most Chinese churches, it was a predominantly second-generation Chinese church, which started— well, at this time, they exist over 100 years.

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They started a long time ago. So they have many generations of Chinese, particularly in the Bay Area, where it's different, versus in Houston, per se. So multiple generations, and the predominant

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members are second generation Chinese. So they're English speaking, and the Chinese speaking were more of a minority in relation to most of the Chinese churches today.

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Right, uh-huh. And actually, I–I forgot to ask you this, but how was your kind of experience of learning English when you moved to the US? Or did you like kind of know English in Hong Kong? Nah, I didn't know anything.

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I–I was a pretty shy person. I was a very insecure person. Actually, that created different behavior of my,

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as I grew up, I tend to be very quiet, insecure, and sometimes to just demonstrate that–that–that I'm important, I–I–I tend to

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talk down to the other people or belittle people and—I mean, tho-tho-those are not very good things that I have, basically, because I was insecure, did not know language very well. But I picked it up.

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You know, as a young person, you could pick up languages pretty–pretty quickly, so that, I did that. Yeah, that's great. And so going back to college, were there any highlights of your college experience?

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Um, highlights, I–I was fairly involved. Although I wasn't very involved with school and extracurricular activity. I was fairly involved with the church that was in.

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I was saved when I was a teenager when I was fifteen. You know, I, as I mentioned earlier, I–I was a pretty good kid, and I thought that, hey, I go to church, I'm good kid, you know, God's gonna accept me.

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But it wasn't until I was fifteen that I realized that hey, you know, that being good is not gonna be able to enable me to go to heaven.

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And it's my personal faith in Jesus Christ that made a difference. And it was because of that I saw God changing me inside out. You know, I had some insecurity issues, has some issue, some loose tongue, and sometime

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some–some temper issue. And God has changed me inside out during my teenager years. I slowly become to open up myself, and in

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interacting with others, and–and so forth. And when I was in high school, we didn't have a high school group or fellowship. So actually, the pastors-two of the pastor's kids,

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and myself, we started high school ministry and–and from there it–it–it flourish. So when I went into college, I was fairly involved with ministering to other people,

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because God is changing so much that I–I wanted to pass this good news to other people. So I worked with, for period of time, I work with middle schoolers, and then later on, I became a high school counselor, and

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I–I just, you know, re- really enjoy working with people, teaching them the word of God and helping them to know the Lord personally.

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Yeah, and so is that what you did after graduation, a high school counselor? Um, I, you know, I–I was, initially, I was gonna be a doctor, and that–that didn't quite work out. Then as–as I serve the Lord

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during my college years, I was fairly involved in many different ways. I was in—you know, I was involved with our college fellowship on campus, as well as at church. And again, I saw God using me

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to propagate the gospel, to see life change, I–I–I saw really-tugging my heart, feeling that–that that might possibly be something that the–the Lord

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want me to go into full time vocation service. So I mean, those were different steps that were taken when I was in high school, I appreciate somebody taking me and some other young people

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aside, to–to train me and to invest in my lives. And they—ac-actually it was a, it was a Texan, it was someone from Texas A&M. He was a, he was a nuclear engineer.

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That worked for Bechtel, that, you know, was in my church, and he–he took a few teenagers under his wings, to–to care for us, to teach us, and to train us and so forth.

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So that made a big difference. And as–as I served the Lord, I–I begin to have a great passion to serve Him more. Later on, some of the leaders in

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the church, waved at me by saying, hey, you know, ha-have you thought about maybe going into ministry. And it was, it was these internal confirmations plus external confirmation that help me to think about ministry, as–as a

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whole. After I graduate from college, I, after I got my degree in mathematics, I–I went, I went ahead to– to get a teacher credential as–as

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a possibility of teaching. That's more of a thinking down the road, th-that's, in case things doesn't work out, you know, I need to talk to my parents about it, you know, then there's something that I could

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fall–fall back on. So that was—that part of that process of–of understanding well, this is maybe something where God would want me to go, um,

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I–I did approach my parents concerned about going to seminary, when I was, when I was in my teacher credential program. And they, you know, and I pray, I pray that God would speak

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through my parents, al-although they were not Christians, but I wanted their blessings. And they–they didn't, they didn't permit me to go. I–I was ready to defend myself and all this. But I–I remember that I pray specifically that God would speak

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to-through my parents. And they said no, and I–I couldn't understand why. But–but yet I was wanting to submit to my parents. I–I had a chance to share the good news with my parents

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that–that–that evening for the very first time, didn't believe whatsoever, but I went back to my room and I was just kind of confused, where– what God want me to do, you know, I had a passion to do ministry, and yet that–that door was

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closed, and I–I–I turned to the Lord, so well You–You don't want me to go into seminar that's– that's–that's okay, you know, I–I could serve You as a teacher or whatever. But I still have this

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burden in my heart that I want to serve You full time. And maybe this might not be the right time. But I–I–I—and I–I remember praying to God and asking for clarity. I said, well I–I could

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reevaluate in–in a couple years. And–and I asked for three things specifically, that You answer and show me that this is what He wanted me to do. And one was that, He will give me a greater

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burden, a greater passion to serve Him, and secondly, that–that God give me more opportunity for me to serve Him. And thirdly, that as I serve him, that I could see a lot of fruits that a

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lot of the results that He–He could use me in–in the long term. An-and I, and I told the Lord at that time, just, if–if–if You answer these three things, in the next couple of years, I will go to

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seminary and serve You, in spite of what my parents would say. And that was a very major decision and request to the Lord. Yeah, definitely.

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And so–so when–when did you end up being—when did you end up, like, deciding to go into seminary and ministry? Well, I–I, a-after graduation, I taught school. Actually, I taught school in my old high

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school, that was, that was kinda weird, I mean, you know, most of my teachers were still there, and–and now I'm on the other side of the fence. And I–I–I love teaching. It–it gave me great joy

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to teach and see students learn and get excited about and–and–and realizing that they–they–they can learn this stuff. I was very devoted in–in–in teaching, probably one of the first teachers to–to

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be in school and one of the last to-to leave. But once I'm done with school, then my time was– was devoted to serve God, and serve young people in–in–in different, in different ways.

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And again, as I mentioned, earlier, that I asked God for answering those three requests in those next couple years, and indeed in those next couple years, God answered all three of those–those

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requests. I had a greater passion, I had more opportunities, and–and I–I was just very fruitful for Him. And–and I told the Lord, you know, if that's, you know, if You answer those three things that I will go, regardless of what my parents would say, and

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you know, kind of looking back, initially, I thought, well, this is a waste, you know, waste of time, I–I could be in seminar, could be serving you, but then I'm stuck here teaching, but in reality, those–those–those few years of

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teaching was part of my training. Looking back, I–I learned so much. I–I learned to be, I learned to be tough, you know, working with students, and all, learn to have

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thick skin, and so forth. And–and, you know, that was something that was all important to me down–down the road. It was, it was time for me to

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approach my parents' concern about–about seminary, you know—and what, actually before that, I had to apply for seminary, and I–I–I'm kind of obsessive compulsive. So I–I–I got everything in

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very, very early, about fifteen months before the fo—the following year, and the only thing that I needed to do was to take the GRE, and that was until November of that year.

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I, although I had everything turned in in July already. And I–I was scared to death to be honest with you about taking GRE because it tests your verbal as well as math. Math wasn't going to be any problem,

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but the verbal I was scared to death about, and reading and—reading and writing was-wasn't my favorite thing to do. I could handle numbers. But I remember God making it very clear, says you

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know, I–I'll teach you to read and write and speak and all of that, because I call you to the ministry. And as I was waiting for the time to take my GRE in October, one month before the

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exam, I got a letter from–from seminary, Dallas Seminary, that's where I went to seminary. I–I got an acceptance letter, waiving my GRE. That was, I didn't, I didn't question or complain or

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anything. Like that was just an act of God. He was just assuring me that He would take care of me and so forth. So it was time for me to–to talk to my parents about seminary.

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I took them aside in the living room, I still remember vividly, and they–they knew there was a big announcement coming up, they think, they thought that I was gonna announce my engagement, or something like that. But

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no, I share with them about my desire to go to seminary and how God's changed my life, and I wanted to be able to tell others about the good news. And my–my–my dad exploded, he–he

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was so mad at me. Because he–he just had a very distorted view, what the right path is all about. Matter of fact, he went as, he went and said, he says, you know, you shamed the family, you

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shamed the family. He, there were, there were just high expectations for me, because I was the oldest son, I was the first to have graduate from college, you–you know, as parents, they–they–

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they want to be have bragging rights of their kids and their accomplishments, and so on and so forth, you know, and in–in their–their view of–of being a pastor, he–he says, you–you can't even

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get a real job, you know, you have to trick people to give you money. So that was their perception. And–and not only that, but he said, you're no

00:31:49.700 - 00:32:03.800

better than a prostitute that trick people to give you money. You know, that–that was his view. And he went, then he said, I would kill myself, before letting you go.

00:32:03.900 - 00:32:16.440

And he meant that because of shame, you know, the Chinese shame, and my–my mom said the same thing. Afterward, I–I was scared to death. And yet I remember, I–I told the Lord that I will go,

00:32:17.020 - 00:32:31.350

regardless of what my parents say. But I got accepted one year in advance, you know, I was living at home and you know, and yet God, there, before I went to seminary, slowly changed the

00:32:31.420 - 00:32:43.720

hearts of my parents. And eventually he did, they did let me go, but they didn't wanna tell anybody that I went to seminary. “Oh Fred went to Texas to go to school.” But didn't tell them as

00:32:43.720 - 00:32:55.270

to what I'm studying or anything like that. But again, God was working, God was—every step of the way. I could see God working. And then I went to seminary after teaching for a

00:32:55.340 - 00:33:08.540

couple years in Dallas. That was back in the late '70s. Cool, that's great. And so after seminary, is that when you went to HCC, or did you do

00:33:08.600 - 00:33:24.360

something in between? It's—Houston Chinese Church was the first church that I serve. Been here, this is my 37th year. I thank the Lord, to allow me to be in one

00:33:24.710 - 00:33:38.230

place for all this time. It’s just been exciting to see people grow from one stage to another. And–and being part of th-that, walking alongside

00:33:40.260 - 00:33:55.430

many people through this journey. So yes, Houston Chinese Church was the first church and I'm still here. Yeah, and so when did you meet your wife? Well, I met my wife at church, back

00:33:57.970 - 00:34:07.870

in Oakland. And we–we–we went, we went to rival schools. So she went to Stanford, and I went to Berkeley and we were

00:34:07.870 - 00:34:23.550

rival schools, and we always, you know, kind of, we make fun of one another. But I'm–I'm thankful to the Lord and–and just preparing her for me, and just a real wonderful match.

00:34:25.270 - 00:34:39.150

And we–we knew each other, i-ironically, you know, we knew each other probably eight to ten years, but I didn't have any romantic interest toward her or anything, we were just friends and so forth un-until, you know, much later in–in our relationship.

00:34:40.880 - 00:34:53.700

But God knew that too. You know, God, I–I wasn't ready, and she wasn't ready, and until–until that time. And e-even though through our

00:34:53.700 - 00:35:08.380

dating relationship, her parents, you know, had high expectation for her too, you know, go to a–a great university, and what she can do and so forth, and–and being a pastor's wife, you know,

00:35:08.380 - 00:35:21.430

possibly, you know, and then my wife asked permission from her parents, so we're, whether we can continue dating and her–her parents gave the okay.

00:35:21.430 - 00:35:35.100

And if her parents say no, she would have dropped that relation—I mean, it was just God's working through it all. And, um, we–we got married in between my third and fourth year in graduate

00:35:35.100 - 00:35:50.170

school in seminary. So actually I took the year off between my third and fourth year, got marry, and then I did a couple internship, and, uh, before returning back to Dallas, for my last year of

00:35:50.390 - 00:36:01.250

seminary. Yeah. So you guys started dating in Oakland, right? Or was it after? Well, we–we knew each other, yeah, way back in Oakland.

00:36:03.020 - 00:36:13.950

But–but we didn't start dating until I was in seminary. Oh, okay. And so was she still living in Oakland when you were in seminary? Yes, it was a long-distance relationship.

00:36:13.950 - 00:36:23.250

That was, that was kind of tricky. Back in those days, again, there was no email or anything like that. But we wrote letter, the old-fashioned way,

00:36:24.300 - 00:36:36.730

through sn-snail mail kind of thing. I, I'm not much of a writer, I–I–I wrote one letter a week, and I was very proud of myself. That–that was a lot of writing for me.

00:36:37.260 - 00:36:48.470

But my wife, Ellie, she wrote me every day. I mean, every day, but she would send out a letter every other day. So I–I know that if I didn't get a letter today, I'm gonna get one tomorrow.

00:36:48.470 - 00:36:59.510

It was like clockwork, you know, something that I–I look forward to. And since I was a poor seminarian, you didn't really even talk on the phone until later on in our relationship.

00:37:00.190 - 00:37:13.990

And then we–we talked on the phone once a week, on Sunday night at 11:01, because after 11 o'clock, that's when you have cheaper rates. So

00:37:13.990 - 00:37:33.970

that, that's–that's, that was a journey that we had together. Oh, fun. And so how did you kind of convince her to move to Dallas from Oakland? Oh, well, I mean, you know, we were married at that time. And during–during that last year,

00:37:34.560 - 00:37:46.390

she–she got pregnant also. So just following my footsteps as to where God might be leading me to–to serve.

00:37:47.360 - 00:38:01.950

I ac-actually be honest with you, I–I didn't have any intention of going to Houston Chinese Church. I did, I did a couple of internships out in the East Coast. One in New York, as

00:38:01.950 - 00:38:19.640

well as one in Boston, and it was—I just felt there was a much greater need in the East Coast. And, but nothing develop. There was no go job op-opening at that time. And in Houston, there

00:38:19.640 - 00:38:35.400

was a position that opened up and I initial—I–I went down there, I was a cocky young man, I thought I c-could win, you know, win, win Christ for the world and do everything and so forth.

00:38:35.480 - 00:38:51.360

I–I said to myself, you know, Houston Chinese Church, at that time, it was a good size church already. And I said, hey, you don't need me, you know, I–I want to go to the hard place up in the front line. And out in East Coast was much–much more challenging, per

00:38:51.360 - 00:39:00.910

se, but nothing opened up there. And God really had to humble me, and God says, see, you think you're smart. You think you know everything, but you don't know anything, you know. You–you still need a lot of

00:39:00.910 - 00:39:16.080

training. You need to sit–sit under some people that–that you can be trained by and to learn from, that there's some–some good veteran pastors at Houston Chinese Church that you need to sit

00:39:16.170 - 00:39:31.960

under and learn. And that–that was a big lesson that I had to be humble to learn, and I accepted that position. Uh huh, yeah. That's great. And so how did you kind of hear about the opportunity at HCC?

00:39:32.870 - 00:39:51.340

Well, when I was in Dallas Seminary, one of my dorm mate, actually two of my dorm mate, were members from Houston Chinese Church. So I–I built and develop relationships with them

00:39:52.660 - 00:40:04.890

and–and since they were not very far away from Dallas, I–I went down to Houston to visit the church and so forth. Now, things were very different back in those days than today, matter of

00:40:04.890 - 00:40:20.030

fact, there were very few English speaking pastors in Chinese churches back–back in the day, that–that's—that was kind of a new development. And yeah, there–there weren't many back in

00:40:20.030 - 00:40:34.520

those days. We're–we're young people, we're growing up and developing and so forth and. So I–I went down and visited, build some relationships with some of the members, and they remember

00:40:34.590 - 00:40:50.520

me, and they kept an eye on me, the leadership here in Houston Chinese Church. They invited me to–to be a retreat speaker, when I was a third year student in Dallas Seminary.

00:40:51.680 - 00:41:03.910

So again, that– that was when I built more relationships with the church and so forth. So by the time that I graduated, and they–they were keeping an eye, they were waiting for me to graduate.

00:41:05.290 - 00:41:19.760

Took care of me and to invite me, so–so that was the story behind that. Yeah. Great, and so I'm thinking you had a pretty strong passion for, like, kind of guiding young children, teaching young children.

00:41:19.760 - 00:41:33.910

So maybe, like, why didn't you go into youth ministry? Or was that not a thing back then? Oh, when—okay, when I first started at Houston Chinese Church, there weren't an English

00:41:33.930 - 00:41:45.820

ministry really, back in those days. It was mainly youth ministry. There were at that time about fifty youth or so, and then there were maybe twenty

00:41:47.620 - 00:41:59.710

so called students or young adults, you know. But there weren't any real adult-adult ministry. There are a few here and there. My–my main ministry was to be youth when I first started.

00:42:00.450 - 00:42:18.180

But at that time, this pastor had a vision that the church would develop into—will have an adult English ministry. Actually, he gave me a different title, actually, w-what my, what my actual work was, I

00:42:18.860 - 00:42:34.550

worked with the youth. But he didn't want—he didn't give me the youth–youth pastor title. Instead, he gave me the title, English pastor, because he anticipated me to be an–an English pastor and have an adult

00:42:34.550 - 00:42:46.980

ministry down the road. So he didn't want people to pigeon me, pigeonhole me to be a youth pastor. And I–I appreciate it. I mean, so he had the foresight of–of what will happen down the road,

00:42:47.570 - 00:43:04.900

so—and– and which did take place down the road. Yeah, yeah. And so what would be, like, what would you say is the biggest change these past almost forty years since you've been at HCC? That's a big question. Uh, there's,

00:43:06.120 - 00:43:18.340

there's a lot changes that's happened, you know, dur- during the last thirty six years. Um, I–I would say the demographics have changed a lot during–

00:43:18.740 - 00:43:31.400

during this period of time. When I first started there, the immigrants here were mainly from Hong Kong and Taiwan.

00:43:32.450 - 00:43:50.140

Those are the two main places where they came, and–and those that– that immigrated here, they were probably—they–they were not affluent or what-whatsoever. I mean, they–they were, you know, they didn't probably, they–they had just average

00:43:50.180 - 00:43:59.580

means. So it's a very different demographics. Back in those days, they came for schooling, they went to U of H and Rice and so forth.

00:44:00.580 - 00:44:18.090

So, so tha-that was back in those days. But as time moved along, oh, I will say, that's almost probably last fifteen, twenty years, the number of immigrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan has–has

00:44:19.770 - 00:44:32.010

really shrunk dramatically, where– where there's very few immigrants from–from those two places, where it was predominantly where the immigrants came from.

00:44:33.350 - 00:44:52.660

But during the last fifteen, twenty years, we see this, the–the immigrants from those two places shrunk drastically, and–and we see Chinese immigrants from Mainland China that started coming to Houston,

00:44:53.120 - 00:45:06.400

and not only Houston too, America in general, that just true across the board. In the old days, the-these students, they came as students for college, and then many of them

00:45:06.400 - 00:45:22.410

stay. So we see different demographics, and–and also different culture. When we look at China, although they are Chi—so called Chinese, China is a little different culture

00:45:22.980 - 00:45:35.780

than from Taiwan, which is different from Hong Kong. And then you have a–a fourth so called culture, which is the second generation Chinese. So we call it the–the ABCs, or the American Born Chinese.

00:45:36.670 - 00:45:51.470

They're– they're more Westernized and all that. So–so, although there's a church, but, and they're all kind of predominantly Chinese, they're from all very different culture, and–and how we administer

00:45:51.470 - 00:46:08.550

and so forth. So th-that–that's a big change. Another change probably is looking–looking at the second generation Chinese, you know, when I came thirty-six, over thirty-six years ago, you know, all–all

00:46:08.550 - 00:46:23.940

the, all the English speaking were– were young people, you know. And, yeah, they're, you know, youth and you take care of them. Also, they don't bother me, we don't bother you, kind of thing.

00:46:23.940 - 00:46:37.280

And the ABCs, to a certain degree, were more second–second class, so called, they're not as important, you know, the adults, the Chinese speaking, you know, they're more important, kind of thing.

00:46:38.150 - 00:46:56.610

But as time moved along, that's changed drastically, because the second generation has grown up, they have, you know, they have their families, they got into professions, many–many of the second generation

00:46:56.660 - 00:47:10.300

Chinese have done very well educationally, because of the sacrifice of their–their parents, and so forth. And they have very good professions, and so forth, that–that–that have come.

00:47:11.050 - 00:47:26.080

So we–we see those changes that happen—well, how–how do you, how do you work with the second generation-the first and second generation, per se? I–I–I'm pleased to say that many–

00:47:26.490 - 00:47:42.850

many of the Chinese churches understand that it’s a-attention. To–to–to see the value of the-their kids and so forth, and–and incorporating them into the leadership of the church, how to do that.

00:47:43.850 - 00:48:01.790

So through time, that was a major adjustment, and–and many churches have taken steps to include the–the ABCs more in the leadership ministry as time moved along.

00:48:01.790 - 00:48:19.610

So I mean, that– that's just been a major–major process that's taken place through–through the years. We–we–we see also the immigrants that comes are little bit different. During the earlier thirty plus years ago,

00:48:19.710 - 00:48:38.400

most of the immigrants were more middle, or–or–or lower-middle class. But yet we see a number of people that are coming from China now, they are—they're–they're a little bit,

00:48:38.500 - 00:48:53.170

little bit better to do financially. So that means different demographics, different culture, how you minister, and–and so forth through time. Yeah, mhm.

00:48:53.520 - 00:49:05.920

And so that kind of reminds me of that doc—the dissertation that you kind of wrote, can you kind of speak on that? Or maybe how have you seen, I guess your dissertation come to life in HCC?

00:49:08.030 - 00:49:28.720

Well, I was o-one of the earlier English speaking pastors that served in Chinese churches. And I–I thank the Lord for giving me opportunity to serve for all–all these years, and definitely I

00:49:28.890 - 00:49:44.700

made my share of mistakes. And I–I developed a passion to train the next generation of pastors. So I wrote a dissertation on how to, how to train

00:49:46.720 - 00:50:06.930

young, English speaking pastors in a Chinese church. I–I–I do feel there's a place for Chinese churches. That doesn't mean that, you know, that we see the younger generation, they–they go to different churches and, you know,

00:50:07.440 - 00:50:23.010

Caucasian churches and–and whatnot, and they–they speak English. But I do believe that there is a place, even for just second generation Chinese, there just a certain affinity connection to similar

00:50:23.140 - 00:50:38.680

background, per se. And there's a different culture that one needs to develop and to work with— how do you work with Chinese speaking pastors, and so forth. So that was my commitment to–to

00:50:38.850 - 00:50:54.550

train young pastors, I've had opportunity—and even right now I'm–I'm training three young pastors from our church, and I've had opportunity to train others, and walking through not only

00:50:55.200 - 00:51:14.040

what's involved in ministry, but understand some of the cultural differences in working together with the Chinese speaking. Yeah, and do you kind of know, the purpose of founding HCC? The, uh, I'll tell you a little history.

00:51:17.090 - 00:51:32.460

Back–back in 1975, that was the beginning of Houston Chinese Church. I–I came in 1984, so nine years after it–it started.

00:51:33.500 - 00:51:45.940

Back in those days there– there was just like, there was like, maybe, I–I don't know all the history, but there might have been just one Chinese church, that was Chinese Baptist Church.

00:51:46.850 - 00:52:00.650

Right now which is located in the Memorial area. They–they target, the Cantonese ministry, and–and the, and the

00:52:01.360 - 00:52:14.900

second generation Chinese. So it was, it was a Cantonese and English speaking church. So there were some Mandarin speaking in that church.

00:52:16.160 - 00:52:29.610

And—but there weren't, there weren't any ministry to the Mandarin speaking back in those days. So some—there were some Mandarin speaking students that went to U of H and so forth, and they

00:52:29.610 - 00:52:42.530

started a fellowship there. Then slowly through that Ministry of the Mandarin speaking students, that was the foundation of Houston

00:52:42.530 - 00:53:00.070

Chinese Church, how it started back in 1975. That's great. And where are the founders now? We–we have, we have some still around, and–and others have moved away.

00:53:00.720 - 00:53:17.950

There are some that passed away, went–went home to be with the Lord. So there–there still are some here, some of them also went to other church plants that we have had through the years.

00:53:18.930 - 00:53:35.360

Yeah, mhm. And so were there any like interactions between HCC and CBC in the earlier years? Other than the founders kind of coming from them? I–I don't know too much of that detail in the very beginning.

00:53:36.360 - 00:53:49.280

But def-definitely the roots started in Chinese Baptist Church, some, you know, some–some key members there. I see. Yeah, mhm.

00:53:49.820 - 00:54:02.290

And so kind of going back to the demographic changes of HCC over the years, how has the church, how has HCC kind of changed around that, maybe in terms of its values or mission?

00:54:02.470 - 00:54:22.750

Or how has it maybe affected, yeah, the purpose of HCC? Well, I mean, I—there's certain things that don't change, that is, you know, the teaching, the belief, and all that, but definitely, there–there needs to

00:54:22.750 - 00:54:37.410

be some changes with the methodology, how you minister, who, you know, how do you do, ministry and so forth. So, we—definitely there, there's different changes, different things that we've done.

00:54:38.450 - 00:54:51.490

One–one thing that we're probably a little bit known for is church planting, in other words, we–we saw the–the—one of the best way of reaching more people is to, is to plant a new

00:54:51.490 - 00:55:08.560

church, and because we–we do believe you want to reach a particular locality. In the earlier years, we–we were more of a metropolitan church, that mean people came from everywhere. I mean, we have people from Clear Lake—we-we're, I mean, and we

00:55:08.560 - 00:55:23.070

located, there was a reason why we're located where we are, we–we are centrally located. In the, sort of in the middle of–of–of Houston. Back in those days, nobody live where we are located.

00:55:24.040 - 00:55:35.560

They–they live everywhere else, but they didn't—we–we pick where we are, because it was close to the freeway, and it was centrally located. So we have people from Clear Lake that came, we have people from

00:55:35.600 - 00:55:49.260

Kingwood that came, we had people from Katy that came, we had people from Sugarland—I mean so, everywhere, they came from everywhere. It was just pretty centralized. And we–we felt it was, it was better if there were

00:55:50.340 - 00:56:05.270

churches, in the suburb area, you know, we–we have planted a church in the Clear Lake area, we planted a church on the west side of–of Houston, and one in this, in Fort Bend, southwest side of town, and

00:56:05.270 - 00:56:20.130

we–we have planted a few other churches. We–we have planted a church in Pearland, and–and—we've also, you know, done something pretty unusual, we also planted church on the other side of the world, in–in Kazakhstan, in Almaty, Kazakhstan, which is

00:56:23.060 - 00:56:35.530

when–when–when Soviet Union broke up into different states, Kazakhstan was one of them. And, you know, we went in and saw there was a need and we were able to plant a church there.

00:56:35.740 - 00:56:54.590

We also plant a church out in Port Lavaca, which is about two hours southwest on 59. There's a big old Taiwanese plastic company down there. Big, large Chinese population, and–and we planted a church there.

00:56:54.590 - 00:57:08.280

And so that was one big kind of a change, and not tryna build a super mega-church, but to, how we might be able to reach more people, to decentralize too, so that people

00:57:08.620 - 00:57:21.590

don't have to travel as much to their local churches. So that–that was one big strategy. And we've seen some of our, so-called daughter

00:57:23.400 - 00:57:39.260

churches, that they also planted other churches and so forth to reach more people. So that–that– that definitely was one–one big area. Another area that we, and as we got bigger, we feel it

00:57:39.260 - 00:57:51.210

is important to–to–to minister to people in a smaller context. We get too big, you get lost, you know. So we–we started small group

00:57:51.210 - 00:58:05.650

ministry, to have a smaller gathering, to have more accountability, a little more intimacy, a little more, you know, personal touch, when–when it's little smaller than–than when you have a bigger

00:58:05.790 - 00:58:20.890

group, per se. So you know, that–that, you know, that–that–that's also very important to the church and some of the changes that we made. An-another–another thing I–I feel is important to

00:58:20.930 - 00:58:40.270

our church, for many years, we're pretty focused on ourselves, didn't really to our community, to people that live around us, and we–we–we didn't do too much. It was in probably about, oh,

00:58:40.270 - 00:58:55.710

about ten years ago, our senior pastor introduced, hey, we need to try to be more intentional reaching the poor and the needy in our community and so forth. And we–we rally our church

00:58:55.710 - 00:59:11.080

members to participate in caring for the homeless, and minister, and being–being taught and be more aware of things like human trafficking. Houston is one of the hubs here, and what can we

00:59:11.080 - 00:59:28.550

do, and connecting with different organizations locally to help–help–help that–that area as well as o-other community services. We ha-have set up an initiative to care

00:59:28.610 - 00:59:40.860

for some of the needy people that are in our–our neighborhood. How–how can we reach out to those homeless people that are close, you know, down the street from us and so forth.

00:59:41.400 - 00:59:52.130

So I think that again, that was something that–that's important. We–we–we make different adjustments at—through–through time. Mhm, I see.

00:59:52.130 - 01:00:09.310

Yeah. And so I'm kind of wondering, like, what is the purpose of planting specifically Chinese churches, why not just, you know, Houston Church or something? Well I think, I think that's

01:00:09.430 - 01:00:27.250

also going to change too, personally. You know, we–we started our first church plant back in 1979, a long time ago, then later on one in '91 and one in the mid '90s, and so forth. Um, but as time has moved on, you know,

01:00:27.410 - 01:00:43.350

the—when we talk about the–the second generation Chinese, you know, they have choices, you know, and we do see a number of young people when they go to college, and after they go to college, you know, they–they

01:00:43.520 - 01:01:00.120

choose, not to go to Chinese church and that's fine. And–and–and unfortunately, some of them have had some negative experience in their upbringing, because they might have felt like more of a second class citizen, and–and so forth, and–and they

01:01:00.120 - 01:01:10.100

don't choose to come back. But yet, we–we do feel that there is a niche, so called, you know, how can we better reach, even second generation

01:01:10.100 - 01:01:23.570

Chinese, I mean, there–there are various–various individuals that feels it’s more comfortable with–with second generation Chinese, and–and so forth. So there is a niche, and then as long as

01:01:23.570 - 01:01:35.900

there's immigration, there's always gonna be first generation that come, and how can we minister to them better. So just this homogeneous principle. But as you mentioned, I think that as–as time

01:01:36.140 - 01:01:55.990

moves along, I think, I think there needs to be some adjustments there as well. I do see in the future, as we do church—and we do plan to view future church plants, that some of those church plants might be more multi-ethnic, not

01:01:57.610 - 01:02:08.090

just–just reaching to the Chinese per se. Because, you know, the second generation Chinese, their–their English is perfect. They're–they're pretty

01:02:08.090 - 01:02:20.750

Westernized in thinking and so forth. And it's really, when talking about worship, and all the different—I mean, it's not that much different from a Caucasian church, per se. Yeah, mhm. Right.

01:02:21.260 - 01:02:36.160

And so are there any other interactions between like our Chinese churches and other Asian churches that aren't Chinese, like Korean churches or Vietnamese churches? Well, there's–there's–there's some, we–we

01:02:36.920 - 01:02:51.250

probably have more interaction with–with some of the other Chinese churches. Or the Chinese pastors, as only the–the–the Chinese pastors do have a fellowship with other Chinese

01:02:52.060 - 01:03:06.020

pastors. They meet every–every other month, to connect, and how–how they can collaborate and so forth. Concerning about connection with other Asian churches, um, some, but not–not too much.

01:03:07.480 - 01:03:24.050

We were, we kind of isolate ourself a little bit more. There–there is some interaction where we have youth re-retreats, where we collaborate with

01:03:24.130 - 01:03:42.250

other Chinese churches in town, and we realize some of the smaller churches might not have the ability or the mass to have a good youth retreat. So we join hands with a number of other

01:03:43.450 - 01:03:56.660

Chinese churches in town to put together, our-our-our middle school youth retreat, as well as a high school retreat, and things like that. So we do-do certain things with other–other–other

01:03:57.880 - 01:04:11.540

churches. Right. And would the same go for, like, non-Asian churches, maybe not that many interactions? Uh, we don't have that much interaction. We—I know a couple of our

01:04:12.180 - 01:04:30.280

pastors go to what is called a Houston church planting network. It is a, uh, inter-denominational and multi-ethnic, learning how to do church planting, and so forth.

01:04:31.450 - 01:04:48.290

So o-one–one of our recent church plant pastor, Yao Hui Lu, went to that training, and so forth. So it–it–it's learning from others that have gone

01:04:49.210 - 01:05:04.740

before us that are not Chinese. Mhm, yeah. And so kind of moving more towards, like, COVID, do you think—so what, maybe what have been some changes to your role as senior pastor

01:05:06.010 - 01:05:24.970

once COVID kind of hit? Well, I–I'm–I'm the Executive Pastor here, so we don't have a senior pastor here. Um, you know, I thi—I think we all went online, and that–that make things challenging.

01:05:25.800 - 01:05:44.670

Although we see each other, but we don't, I mean we're still kinda seeing each other on the screen, and–and didn't really being in person, per se, so that—we–we had to do our services online, and–and we have our small groups online, everything's online, meetings

01:05:44.670 - 01:05:58.810

online. So it's– it's a little more challenging w-when–when you don't have the personal, real personal touch with one another or–or caring and shepherding others that’s–that’s challenging,

01:05:59.870 - 01:06:14.290

and people staying at home, it's challenging, cabin fever until—and then particularly I–I guess, those that have young children, you know, who have kids, they don't go to school, they're

01:06:14.290 - 01:06:23.350

online, and then they have to work, they work at home, they try to juggle watching their kids, working. And you know, it's

01:06:23.350 - 01:06:39.050

been a very—it's a very stressful time for–for everybody, and particularly those that have family, and particularly those that have young children. So, many–many challenges because of COVID. Right, yeah. And have you seen it?

01:06:39.050 - 01:06:51.650

Have you like heard of any–any specific needs from the church members in terms of—maybe for like stresses, or mental health is a big thing?

01:06:52.730 - 01:07:08.780

Oh, I–I think, you know, it–it affects everybody. People that go to church, but i-if you're stuck at home for a long period of time, it catches-it just catches up to you. So, you know, tho- those, all those things are also true for our members, just

01:07:09.320 - 01:07:20.370

more challenging to keep–keep up with everybody, you don't see everybody. So it–it takes extra effort for myself, like I–I made a commitment to just call everybody, every–every

01:07:22.070 - 01:07:37.790

member of the English congregation, or who— just the–the directory, just see how they're doing here for, you know, praying for them, things like that. So we–we need to use other means of communication and understanding the needs of

01:07:38.390 - 01:07:54.690

our members and how we can better meet their needs. Yeah. And have there any—have there been any lessons that you've learned from the pandemic so far? Well, um, you know, I think, I think it's easy for us to complain, you know.

01:07:54.690 - 01:08:06.760

It's–it's natural, you know, we're stuck, we can't do this, we have to go wear mask, if you—you know, that kind of thing. But I'm a kind of optimistic kind of person, there, there's positive things that comes

01:08:06.900 - 01:08:20.670

along the way too, you know. We have opportunity to be, to spend more time with our family. It's just what we're gonna do with–with that extra time. Do we see it as a, as an opportunity?

01:08:20.670 - 01:08:33.420

Or do we see it as, you know, a–a greater burden, per se, you know, or do we take advantage of–of those things. And so I mean, those–those are good things, we–we don't have to travel. So we're

01:08:33.420 - 01:08:51.730

saving time to go to work or to go to meetings, and go, you know, to do di-different things. So technically, you have more time in your hand, you have more time with your family, have more time to–to reflect and–and so forth.

01:08:51.730 - 01:09:11.020

So I mean, if–if you want to take advantage of seeing some of the–the positive things, you know, they try to make best use of the–the cards that are given to you. So we're trying to do the best of that.

01:09:11.480 - 01:09:23.780

There's things that are out of our control. We can't do too much about, but what–what–what is within our control, and–and how–how can you make this use of the situation you're in.

01:09:24.530 - 01:09:38.790

Mhm, yeah. And so, now moving towards your organizations—the organizations that you're a part of. So I saw a video on Facebook of you, I think you're with another two pastors or

01:09:38.790 - 01:09:52.690

something, for PAACT—speaking for PAACT. So what is kind of your role in PAACT? Well PAACT stands for Partnership of Asian American Churches in Texas.

01:09:53.240 - 01:10:07.250

So what–what– what that basically means is a partnership with other churches, Chinese churches in Texas. There–there–there's about seventeen churches that we partner together. Basically, what can we

01:10:07.250 - 01:10:24.060

do together where we cannot do on our own, you know, we partner together, we could do some things that we can't do by ourselves. It–it actually started before I arrived, over

01:10:26.770 - 01:10:43.640

thirty-six years ago, there was just only three churches back in that time, we were the fourth church that join in. But it was a opportunity for us to build relationship one another. Understanding that we-we're all

01:10:43.750 - 01:10:58.270

in the same ministry together, we’re-we're working with the ABCs. And there's different challenges that we have, and how we could share our understanding of one another, as well as

01:10:58.530 - 01:11:11.720

partner together to–to do some projects and ministry said we cannot do by ourselves. So it-it's been a very unique and special

01:11:13.470 - 01:11:31.830

association that we've had through the many decades, probably about forty years is in–in existence. And we've been able to, one, build relationship with other English speaking pastors throughout Texas.

01:11:33.790 - 01:11:46.620

We–we probably, boast a little bit, might have the strongest network in Texas, in any other states in the United States. It's because of, because of

01:11:46.620 - 01:12:00.390

PAACT, this–this association, we've been intentional in building relationships, sharing and supporting one another. But we also been able to do a number of projects where we cannot do

01:12:00.920 - 01:12:17.710

by ourselves. Right, right at this very moment—we have retreat called RENDER, to help those that are considering full time vocational service, and how we can guide them along, w-what's that

01:12:17.710 - 01:12:31.200

involve, and–and so forth. Actually, that's going to take place in January. That, a-again, that–that cannot be done by one church, it was a–a joint effort to make that

01:12:31.550 - 01:12:46.260

possible. We've had, what we call Legacy, is–is— it is a, an open dialogue, encouraging the oversea-born Chinese and the American-born Chinese,

01:12:46.260 - 01:13:00.950

the first and second generation to get together to talk about issues between, you know, within Chinese churches, the different generations, different challenges. Not that we have all the solution, but we need to get–get in the same table, talk about

01:13:01.150 - 01:13:13.910

the issues, and to hear each other out, to understand each other, and try to resolve some of the challenges before us. So again that– that's something bigger than we can do just–just–just by

01:13:13.960 - 01:13:28.100

ourselves. So there–there are other initiatives that we have been able to–to accomplish, because we're able to work together. And in having this network also definitely develop

01:13:29.590 - 01:13:43.720

a strong support system that we have. Yeah, and what happened in some of those conversations within the Asian churches? What are some of the conversations? Yeah, like within the Asian churches that are kind

01:13:45.950 - 01:14:00.110

of—like concerned, I guess? Well, I mean, there–there—we have, we tackled issues like well, we see that, they–they– they call it the Silent Exodus.

01:14:00.360 - 01:14:12.930

I mean, we see the second generation Chinese, a number of them leaving the Chinese churches, and not coming back. So, why are they leaving?

01:14:13.230 - 01:14:26.180

And what–what can be done about that? So that–that–that was an issue, that's a major issue that has been present for–for past couple decades. We talked about, you know, working together as a team, you know,

01:14:26.570 - 01:14:40.970

between the Chinese-speaking, the English-speaking there's different mentality how you approach, how you, how–how we respect one another, and–and–and so forth. So I mean those are, you know, some–some–some bigger issues

01:14:42.100 - 01:14:59.640

that–that's present and–and how we can collaborate, how we have dialogue to–to–to resolve some of theses issues. Yeah. And so what are some future aspirations for PAACT, maybe your own future

01:15:00.030 - 01:15:15.800

aspirations? Well, you know, we, I–I–I've served in PAACT for almost thirty-six years. And th-there were some old timers that have served, we've served together for–for decades,

01:15:15.850 - 01:15:30.110

so called, and I was, we were, we the old-timer, we're excited. Last year, we–we–we passed the baton to–to the

01:15:30.160 - 01:15:48.660

younger generation to oversee PAACT and–and the future of PAACT. So all–all the–the–the officers, so-called, of PAACT have stepped

01:15:48.710 - 01:16:02.310

down after serving, you know, for a long, long time. We're just excited that a number of the younger pastors have stepped up to take on the leadership, and looking into the future, and so forth.

01:16:02.800 - 01:16:15.390

So what you might have seen in Facebook, that's–that's part of it. Going more digitally, how we might be able, you know, with the experience that we have, how we might be able to not

01:16:17.200 - 01:16:32.780

only minister to the churches here in Texas, but how–how can we be able to assist and help other Chinese heritage churches, and

01:16:33.030 - 01:16:50.060

they're facing a similar situation in other parts of the United States, or–or maybe even internationally as we go digitally. So that was one of the proposals of–of getting short, little podcasts or–or whatnot, and–and looking what are

01:16:50.060 - 01:17:05.510

some of the issues that we face, and–and having some dialogue about it, and then putting it online that–that we could help one another. Yeah, that's great. And so what is the Houston Area Christian Educators that you're part of?

01:17:06.940 - 01:17:23.790

Well, that was something that was started back in, like, in the early 1990s, okay. Back–back in that time, there—although Houston is the fourth

01:17:24.180 - 01:17:41.900

largest city in the United States, there was no, what is called Christian Education Conference. In other words, in all the major cities, there– there's, like a convention once a year, where they–they

01:17:42.610 - 01:17:59.010

rally pastors, lay–lay leaders together to learn. So it's Christian education, which means those that teaches God's word,

01:17:59.830 - 01:18:14.290

whether we're talking about those that teach the nursery, preschool, elementary years, adults, so I mean, of–of the whole gamut, different age group, and to provide

01:18:14.740 - 01:18:28.350

training for them to be teaching. It could be leavings, small groups, discussions or, I mean, basically, it's–it's–it's education, or training,

01:18:28.950 - 01:18:43.960

basically, provide training for those that teach the Word of God in different age level and in different contexts, per se. How–how you could help them to develop better,

01:18:44.570 - 01:18:57.560

training—to train them better, so that they can teach better. So it started there in a very small way. There–there was a group of some pastors, they–they were

01:18:57.560 - 01:19:15.780

not Chinese or anything, they were just, you know, they were different pastors in town. Se- several of them were graduates of Dallas Seminary, where–where I graduated, um, and so they gathered to get us, hey, you know, somebody that came with the vision, hey,

01:19:16.280 - 01:19:28.230

can–can we set up a convention, or where we can provide training for those that teach the Word of God, Christian education, in–in the Houston area.

01:19:29.200 - 01:19:48.780

So we started in a very humble way in the early '90s, 1990s. I remember, we had like 175 people, or so. Um, and then as time moved along, it started to grow, and we started expanding to reach a different group of

01:19:48.780 - 01:20:05.110

people, teaching different age groups and so forth. So I–I was involved with it for about ten years. It was all volunteer work, you know, none of us were paid anything, it is something that we did on the side, for the,

01:20:06.060 - 01:20:22.780

for the Kingdom's sake, for—to help others. So there were a lot of logistics, a lot of administration, so forth, we–we went, we started about 175 people to about 2,000 people, reaching about 2,000, maybe reaching

01:20:23.240 - 01:20:39.600

about 200 different churches in Houston area. We have like 200 workshops. So you–you can imagine that's a lot of coordination, to–to do that, connecting with 200 churches, and having

01:20:40.360 - 01:20:54.220

different churches send people that teach the Word of God and learn, in–in a very affordable way and coordinating teachers, trainers who come to teach, and so forth. So we did that once a year.

01:20:54.890 - 01:21:12.100

And when we first started, there were a lot of people that want to help and we're excited about it, and so forth, across–across the city, across denomination, across, you know, we are all working together. But when it came down to really doing the work, you know,

01:21:12.100 - 01:21:21.210

obviously, you really had to do the work, not that many people participated. There–there—you know, there–there was a group of people of–of us that worked on it.

01:21:21.210 - 01:21:36.690

And as time moved along, the–the conference got bigger and bigger. And then the core group got smaller and smaller. Where–where–where it came down to,

01:21:37.190 - 01:21:55.870

there were about five of us, as the key core leaders that ran one of these conventions. And we were, you know, we–we just couldn't handle, you know, it's time—you just got more and more

01:21:55.870 - 01:22:11.470

work. And it was just something that we did on the side, not, you know, we had to do our pastoring, or, though we connected with–with different pastors to do this. And it got more and more difficult. So we, it was very successful, but was

01:22:12.450 - 01:22:28.740

people running it, you know, got reduced. So we–we were looking for a partner that we might be able to hand off this to. And init-initially, we–we–we connected with the College–College–College

01:22:35.640 - 01:22:49.640

of Biblical Studies in town, which is, which is a Bible College in–in town. Since they're involved with training and teaching, we thought that might be, you know, appropriate to hand off to them, which we

01:22:49.710 - 01:23:03.970

did early part of 2000 or so. And they–they–they were doing it for several years, unfortunately, it was just, didn't

01:23:03.970 - 01:23:13.070

work out as well for them. And–and they had it dissolved. So we don't, we don't have any Christian Education Conferences here.

01:23:13.780 - 01:23:30.610

It–it went, it went for about ten years or so, my involvement, then we hand it off to College of Biblical Studies, and they did it for a few years. And–and–and it served its purpose during that time.

01:23:30.930 - 01:23:45.950

I–I had an opportunity to–to be the chair of organization several years when the conference went on, I–I feel blessed to have the opportunity to serve the Greater Houston churches during–during

01:23:47.360 - 01:24:00.950

that time. Yeah, that's great. And so kind of—last kind of section, speaking more on your personal identity, what are some key aspects that you think have helped you construct your own identity

01:24:00.990 - 01:24:16.210

and like how you identify as? You know, I, you know, I–I come from a Chinese heritage background, and I'm–I'm probably be a Chinese, you know, I still—although I came to the States when I

01:24:16.210 - 01:24:28.080

was eight, I–I still have a big part of me, my heritage, my culture, my way of thinking is still, I–I still think, you know, Eastern Chinese way.

01:24:28.700 - 01:24:45.260

But yeah, you know, I grew up here in–in the States, Western culture, and I mean, there's–there's a lot of good things of, from the different cultures from the East as well as the West, and I'm–I'm thankful that I can integrate both

01:24:45.820 - 01:24:55.570

the Chinese culture and the Western culture here. So that–that made who I am. But yet at the same time, probably more,

01:24:55.900 - 01:25:08.360

you know, I'm–I'm–I'm blessed to–to be an American, you know. I'm–I'm American, I'm a Chinese American, but I'm American. Um, and–and that's part of my identity.

01:25:08.670 - 01:25:23.670

I'm–I'm proud to be, to be associated as Ameri-American, and the things that our country uphold to, the freedom that we do have, and–and the liberty that–that–that

01:25:25.730 - 01:25:39.180

we are blessed with. So I'm–I'm American. But most important of all, my–my identity is rooted in Christ. I'm a Christian, I'm a follower of

01:25:39.370 - 01:25:55.180

Christ. I exist because God saved me, gave me new life. And–and–and it gives me security in

01:25:56.360 - 01:26:13.340

Him. I do feel an issue today, among all of us, is that we—just how we define success, yeah. Or even Chi—you know, many Chinese people, you know, they–they define success as the—you– you, if you're happy, you know, you're going to be successful.

01:26:13.820 - 01:26:26.230

That's what my dad said, my dad basically said, hey, if you–you get a good education, get a good job, a good amount of money, then you'd be happy.

01:26:26.470 - 01:26:39.010

What a simple for-formula, you know. But in reality, you know, that–that– that might sound good, but that's not, that's not true. Just—even, even so called, when you're so

01:26:39.010 - 01:26:51.630

called happy, is that, is that all succ—is that success? You know, and just because you have a lot education at that does not necessarily—and–and even if you have a good job, even you make a

01:26:51.630 - 01:27:04.040

lot of money, it does not necessarily mean that you're–you're happy. You know, there is a focus on external versus internal, I think a lot of us, we think we have a lot of stuff, a lot of material

01:27:04.510 - 01:27:19.050

stuff, and so forth, earth-earthly possessions, and then we're happy. We measure success or prestige, how–how many degrees we have—I mean, and those things are important to many Chinese.

01:27:19.050 - 01:27:34.930

And I'm not saying that–that they're not valuable, but sometimes we place too high of a priority in–in those things, because those things don't really last. You know, God's the one that created us, and we have an inner soul, a being

01:27:38.290 - 01:27:52.970

of–of–of—we're–we're only here for a limited period of time. And there is a life after, you know, there is a God, and there, you know, what– what's gonna happen to us afterward? You know, so those are different things that we need to look at.

01:27:54.300 - 01:28:10.360

Chinese people tend to focus on performance, more external things, doing instead of being, and inner character or soul, eternity versus temporal things.

01:28:10.940 - 01:28:23.950

So I–I'm in, I'm–I'm doing what I'm doing because I feel true success is– is really knowing God, personally, because there are a lot of things that are really out of our

01:28:23.950 - 01:28:39.590

control. And when you talk about inner peace and so forth, you get—or–or having true security. So my identity is in Christ. And I find my peace, joy, you know, what's the difference between

01:28:39.630 - 01:28:50.210

joy and happiness? Jo-joy is not dependent on circumstances. Happiness is dependent upon things going right. And when things are not going right, then you're not happy.

01:28:50.340 - 01:29:00.520

So like, okay, there are a lot of times that things are not going to go right. It is when things don't go right, at least you have joy. You still have peace.

01:29:00.660 - 01:29:14.840

You still, you know, that—and that's a big, big difference as–as to where we place our identity in. Yeah, that's great. And so did your parents ever become Christians?

01:29:17.070 - 01:29:36.590

Well, that is a good question. You know, I prayed for my parents for decades, you know, and my–my dad, when he was eighty-one, he went to his doctor, and his

01:29:36.590 - 01:29:48.030

doctor, his–his–his regular physician. His doctor said, your health is better than my health. And he con—he was

01:29:48.030 - 01:29:58.340

confused. My dad was confused. He was eighty-one, and–and the doctor was half–half his age, you know, like, me, you know? So, he, my dad asked–asked, what you mean by that?

01:29:59.610 - 01:30:13.640

And–and my, his doctor said, you know, I–I have a heart condition, I'm gonna need open heart surgery, soon. And he says, I'm not sure what's going to happen when they do that.

01:30:14.380 - 01:30:28.770

But one thing I know for certain, no matter what happened, you know, I know that I'll go to Heaven. Oh, you know, at eighty-one you do think a little bit about death? So my dad go, what do you mean by that?

01:30:29.250 - 01:30:44.630

You know for certain that you go to heaven. So they're in the doctor's office, his doctor shared the gospel with my dad, and my dad, trusted Christ there in the doctor's office, and I'm indebted to

01:30:44.630 - 01:30:58.940

the doctor ensuring that. So my dad's a Christian. And it was actually last year, my mom, when she was ninety-one last year, that

01:30:58.940 - 01:31:15.530

she placed her trust in Christ. Um, you know, we've been praying for them for–for years, and I–I–I feel a peace, you know, anything happened to my folks, that

01:31:15.550 - 01:31:29.560

they'll–they'll go to heaven, because they place their trust in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross to pay the penalty of our sins, and that if we do place our trust in Him, that He rose from the dead, overcoming death,

01:31:30.170 - 01:31:43.840

that we will be safe. So, my parents are–are safe, so I'm thankful to the Lord. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty great. And so you—do you have, you have children

01:31:43.840 - 01:32:01.050

too, right? I have two children. I have a daughter who–who is living in the Los Angeles area, and–and she has two kids, nine-and-a-half and eight, two

01:32:02.320 - 01:32:15.980

daughters. Then I have a son. He's in town, which we're–we're happy we have one of them. And he has three kids, they're five, three-and-a-

01:32:15.980 - 01:32:33.700

half, and almost two. Oh wow. Great, and how was it kind of raising them as like a pastor's kid, I guess? Well, you know, I–I really, I really didn't want

01:32:35.910 - 01:32:49.370

them to–to–to act any different than any, you know—I didn't want him, them to be different, per se. “Well, you're–you're a pastor's kid, so you

01:32:49.370 - 01:33:04.330

need to do this, this, and this.” So, I mean, it's, def-definitely there's different challenges as they went through their teenage years and all. But we–we have the greatest relationships.

01:33:04.880 - 01:33:24.660

And I'm thankful to–to God for–for that. And–and I–I–I believe in our generation today, Chinese people particularly, we need to really

01:33:28.300 - 01:33:39.380

make it a higher priority. Although, you know, most Chinese people will say, well family's important. But–but you really look at it, you know, how do

01:33:39.590 - 01:33:58.680

you define importance, per se. I–I find so many, so many families, so many parents regret, have so much regret, that after their kids move out to college, and many of

01:33:58.820 - 01:34:11.730

them depart from their faith, and–and their relationship with their children are not good. There's so many of them. And–and it's because

01:34:13.230 - 01:34:23.870

parents, many think that, well, you know, if I provide them with things then it will be good. But much more important than stuff

01:34:24.960 - 01:34:38.170

is–is–is time with them, and so forth. I–I think it's so important that we as–as parents, and grandparents as I'm, I have five grandkids, that–that we could partner together how

01:34:38.170 - 01:34:52.980

we could affect the next generation. And we need to be committed to training, and I–I think our younger generation is very different than–than when I, when I grew up. There, just in general,

01:34:53.060 - 01:35:13.000

you know, I–I , but I do sense there is more of, little–little more disrespect than in the past, more–more entitlement, not as responsible, and so forth. I mean, they're just, they've

01:35:13.000 - 01:35:26.400

learned some bad habits as they were growing up. And–and I–I believe the key, the real key is–is–is on the hands of the parents. I believe there

01:35:26.400 - 01:35:44.540

needs to be proper training that the parents need to give to their children to guide them properly. We need to listen to our–our–our young people, try to understand, allow them to make mistakes,

01:35:45.750 - 01:36:00.690

not to overprotect them. We–we need to guide them more. And I find many parents farm that out, outsource that through a church.

01:36:02.380 - 01:36:12.060

And that's not true. I mean, we–we can't do it, they–they– they, you know, they only come to church one to two hours a–a week, how are you gonna influence them, there's no way.

01:36:12.620 - 01:36:28.820

The church come along the side, and the parents, to help them to provide some training, provide resources, but they can, they can, you know, they can be doing the training. God's given that privilege and responsibility to the parents. And there's no substitute to time.

01:36:30.050 - 01:36:43.310

We have to communicate and there's–there's a gap between parents and their kids, because they don't make the effort to communicate, they break down communication. And in to-today with technology, with so much distraction,

01:36:44.940 - 01:36:59.910

many of young people accept problem. You know, community are having relationships that's—God's made us to have relationships. And there's–there's no shortcuts in relationship but to spend time and to

01:36:59.960 - 01:37:14.330

value one another, and to see where–where–where they are. So I–I really challenge parents and grandparents working together, to love our kids, to guide them, to be intentional, it doesn't

01:37:14.330 - 01:37:25.830

happen automatically. It makes some sacrifices, but we will not regret. One of the sweetest thing in life is having a close family relationship.

01:37:27.080 - 01:37:41.320

One of the saddest thing is to see people that are in their deathbed, and nobody come to visit them. The family are not connected at all, that's one of

01:37:41.470 - 01:37:53.460

the saddest thing. And we have to work in the front end, to continue to have that relationship with our children, as well as our grandchildren. And that needs to be a priority, and may God

01:37:53.460 - 01:38:07.450

help us to–to pursue that as a priority. Yeah, yeah, that was all great advice, thank you. So, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't covered maybe?

01:38:09.350 - 01:38:21.690

Something else to add? We say, we talked a lot of stuff already. Um, I–I just want to conclude by, you know, we could talk all we want, and wanna pursue the right thing.

01:38:22.340 - 01:38:32.920

But ultimately, we need, we need, we need to understand God's–God's one that created us. You know, we ask question, where–where do we come from? And what are we doing here?

01:38:33.490 - 01:38:44.290

And where are we going? I mean, three very basic questions. It really, really is connected with God. Unless we un-understand and answer those three questions well,

01:38:45.440 - 01:39:02.240

you know, we'd–we'd be pursuing an–an empty hole. And–and I–I just challenge all the listeners to understand that God’s the one that created us, and we're accountable to Him, and He–He–He does desire

01:39:02.240 - 01:39:15.640

to have a relationship with us. And–and that He has provided a way for us to have eternal life through Christ. And not only that, but He also promises that we can have a–a abundant life. And that

01:39:15.640 - 01:39:30.740

while we're here, He is provided guidelines, how we could have a relationship with not only God but also to have a horizontal relationship with one another. And He's given us guidelines, how we can live in our family, live with our neighbors, live with our

01:39:30.740 - 01:39:40.380

coworkers, and how we can enjoy life to its very fullest. So that's my challenge to the listener's. God's changed my life, can

01:39:40.380 - 01:39:44.770

change yours as well. Thank you so much once again.