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Okay, so Today is November 20, and I'm here with Pastor David Hsu from West Houston Chinese church, and I will be interviewing him on behalf of Houston Asian American Archive from Rice University. So to first

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start off, we're going to kind of learn about your childhood. Can you tell us about where and when were you were born? Yeah, um, I was born in Taipei, Taiwan, in 1965.

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And, yeah, and and our family later on, I immigrated to the US when I was 14. Perfect. And do you have any siblings? Yeah, I have a sister and a brother.

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And I'm the oldest. And so three kids. And yeah, we-we actually, after we immigrated to the US, we grew up in the Boston area.

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Okay. And were they also born in Taiwan? Yes. We were all born overseas, and all grew up and—I went to high school here and my siblings that you know, they were younger. Yeah. Okay.

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Okay. Do you remember anything from your childhood in Taiwan specifically? I do, what would you want to know? Yeah, I mean, any, like childhood memories that you had? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

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I-I do have a number of childhood memory because um growing up in Taiwan, I, you know, I-I-I grew up in the church, my parents are believers. So my earliest memories were in the church. Um, and, you know, I was a pretty mediocre student.

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I like playing basketball. I um, I collected bugs. As a kid, I used to go with some friends. And we were collecting butterfly and dragonfly samples.

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And, um, yeah. You know, I was pretty blessed as a child. I didn't really remember many bad things other than until, like, right before we're about to immigrate, when my father, my father passed away when I

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was 12. And then, grandparents who lived with us also passed away. So-so I guess that the last couple of years there became harder. And it was after

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my father passed away where, I did not even know, my mom had been talking to my uncle about us immigrating as a family to, to the US. And we did that when I was 14.

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Okay, and then so your uncle was already in the US? So he was your—Okay. Cool. And so what year did you move to the US?

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So 19- Okay. Okay. And then you moved to Boston first. Right. We were originally in New York City, a little bit.

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That was a little scary in the beginning. And then we—my other uncle, one of my uncles worked in New York City. And then-so we were with him for a little while. And then later on, we moved to Boston, we lived in the suburb.

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Yeah. Okay. And was there any other reason for your family to move to the US? Uh, I think it's probably very similar to many Chinese families. After my father passed away, I think even

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before then, my mom and dad actually talked about the possibility of our family immigrating, but I think my-my mom would not leave without my dad. And after my dad passed away, I think they-they really immigrated

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because of the decision is really for our sake thinking that there will be a better future for us. I think in a way also for my mom, she felt like maybe just kind of a new start of life. That there's-I think there's some sad memories

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definitely with dad, grandparents passing there. So we came over, yeah in 1979. Yeah. And did your—did you and your family know in English, when you guys moved? Um, my mom very little, all of us very little.

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But-but I had, you know, in junior high, I started taking English. But my English was bad. It was bad. Yeah, we had to learn-we had to learn cause I-that first two years in-in US,

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in New York and in Boston, I walked—I walked around with a dictionary. Literally I carried a little dictionary with me. Before phone days and stuff, like electronic dictionary. So yeah, I-I

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worked hard wanting to learn the language well. Mm hmm yeah. And what do you think helped you most to learn English right after you moved to the US? Um, you know, apart from the grace of God, I will

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say, um, when I was in New York City, I didn't learn very much, because there were just so many Chinese-speaking kids there. Like, yeah, like I was right away introduced to like, in my junior high, there's like half the

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cafeteria, it was, they were speaking Chinese. And then- but when we moved to Boston, we were in the suburb, and there was no one.

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Okay, so now you have to kind of sink or swim. And I felt like a big part of that learning had to do with just a very different environment.

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And I had a very sweet, elderly Jewish ESL teacher, Mrs. Aronson, who I love very much and who cared for me very much. And my first two years of being in ESL classes

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with her, I thought she was a terrific teacher. And yeah, that was, that was really a blessing for me. Yeah, that's great. And how about, like, overall, how was your integration process into like, the American

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culture, getting used to the lifestyle? I think, I think, um, probably, you know, the high school and college years were the years where I, you know, I really kind of-kind of assimilated.

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High school a little bit, but because, you know, I was living at home and stuff, I wouldn't say totally. But I will say the first two years in college, being away from home, being with-

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living in the dorms with friends. I felt like that that's when I really kind of, kind of fit in. Because in high school, there were some hard times too, right.

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Getting picked on things like that. Yeah, so when you like, kind of got picked on in high school, do you think that was kind of directed towards you because-as an Asian American, or as an Asian student, I guess, or was that just more

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normal? Yeah, I think it's probably a combination of these things. I think I was probably it was probably, you know, nerdy kid that maybe that's part of it. I think, the Asian part-probably-probably there were very few

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Asian kids in my school. I was being challenged, to Kung Fu matches often. I didn't even know Kung Fu but they always

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wanted to fight with me. So and there's some there's some kids from Hong Kong who actually knew some Kung Fu, and got into a fight with them. And, and they ganged up on him beat him up.

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And so I, I always just, okay, I didn't know Kung Fu and I try to stay away. But yeah, there was some, there was definitely I mean, we didn't use those terms and there was not that level of awareness about bullying and stuff like that.

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But there was a lot of that going on, yeah. I see, I see. And was that kind of, I guess, accepted as normal back then? Cause I know, like, you know, in recent years—

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Yeah. I, I think—I think I accepted as normal. I saw, it never occurred to me, that I should report the kids who were doing that, to me, are always, it always felt

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like if I had reported them, I always feared that things may get worse for me. So it was usually just kind of take it on the chin and walk away. Walk away. Yeah.

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Um, and, and, you know, especially those first two years in high school in Western Massachusetts, where I just felt like, I need to learn the language, I still, I still don't know my way around. Just really learning other things, I just felt like, I just need to figure this thing

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out. And I think as I became a better student. And maybe, just gradually, things got better as I became Junior and Senior year, I was in a de—I was-I

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had gotten back into kind of classes with my peers because before that I was usually placed in like regular classes and not like the accelerated classes, sort of college-bound classes. So I got bullied a lot.

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And I think later on when I was in my AP classes and things like that, that just-that reduced quite a bit more thing. That's interesting. Do you think you were like, really academically focused in high

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school? I was, I was a total nerd. You know, you know, I just wanted to, I always felt like if I-if I do better, maybe I can pull myself out of some of that-that kind of ridicule or that

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kind of disrespect. Yeah, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. And did you participate in any extracurriculars? Oh a-a few, only at the insistence of my teacher for my own sake. Because, you know, just very self-

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conscious. Feeling like, you know, my English wasn't very good. I was my first two years, I really didn't do anything, I just want to just trying to fit in and get into school. And then the Junior, Senior year my teacher

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became aware that I wasn't, you know, doing that and pushed me. So I joined some clubs and things like that. But they felt like, at that stage, they felt like, they felt like things that I just had to do.

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It wasn't more like, like, I love to do it, because I wanted to do something I love. Like, like, so when-when my kids are in high school, and joined clubs or sports and things like that, I envied them, because, you know, they were

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doing things that they really loved. And at that time, for me, it was really just, I just felt like I was just trying to, it was really kind of a survival mindset. I would say until-until I went to college.

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I really felt like, I survived high school. Yeah, that's funny. And so like, what specific extracurriculars did you take part in? Or any sports? Oh, I think it was in some sort of, like, the

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Key Club, some sort of club that helps the community. Some language club, just-just a few things to try to, just to make sure that has something to put on my applications. And it wasn't enough.

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Yeah, okay. Interesting. And did your mom ever have like influences on your academics or maybe the extracurriculars as well, that you were a part of? Not really. My mom-my mom has always been a housewife.

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My dad-after my dad passed away, my mom only had a high school education. Um, and, you know, I think by the grace of God, like myself, my siblings, we

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were all kind of just self-starters in that area. Like, mom usually didn't have to push us about school. And I think I said, maybe when dad was alive, they actually did some, but I would say, after my dad

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left, passed away, um, we, you know, I think my mom was more-cared more about us just loving each other and love God. And I never really

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recall being pushed. Although I did push myself. I did push myself and my aspiration was trying to get into an Ivy League school. Yeah, like, many, like many yes.

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Yes, right. Exactly. Yeah. And so I guess, how was-what was like kind of the culture within your family kind of like the dynamics?

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Was it like very close? Were you very close to their siblings and your parents and such? Yeah, I would say, I would say, you know, we were close. We were not like, very, very close, but we were

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close. And, and I think, you know, not having our dad kind of also kind of resulted in that, that we-and we didn't have tons of friends outside, especially those early years. And so we played with each other, or just made a little

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bit with neighbors, but even not that much. So, um, so even until today, you know, I would say we're close. And my siblings, we have-we have a good relationship. My mom, I think one thing my mom always tried to talk to us

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about is just how important it is to love each other. Yeah. Some of the horror memory, I recall, when my grandfather was dying, and my mom's siblings were there and they were arguing about, you know, who was paying for what or caring for this.

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And there was some harsh memory of that. And I think that was on the back. One might have seen that, you know, when a family is not caring about each other. That that just didn't, that just didn't look that great at all.

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Yeah, so and so I felt like I was very fortunate. Even though I lost my-my dad early. I felt like we as a family we’re, we’re pretty close. And, you know, I was close to

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my mom being the oldest too. Yeah, that's great. And so, like, after moving from Taiwan, were there any-did you guys still celebrate those traditional like, holidays and such?

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Oh, no, we're now we, we, we we-for a long time, because we lived far from Chinatown, and where we where we were you know, the stuff you know like, H-Mart or 99 Ranch, uh, we didn't even know what day

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Chinese New Year was. So-so-so it was until like much later, where there were just more Chinese people were at the town that we were at, and we got more in the Chinese church—my mom was part of the people that helped

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started a Chinese church in our town and started like a Bible study. And so we're just more aware of that. But no, I would say, we first-we gave up most Chinese holidays and things.

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You know, and being- after my father passed away, when we moved over here, my mom worked, you know, taking care of other people's kids. And then later on, she worked on kind of an assembly line for like a

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PC-PC board constructions and things like that for four years, until I started working. And so-so you know, our finances were always, you know, we were not like, destitute or anything. But we had, we lived a pretty simple life.

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We hardly ate out and things like that. So, we didn't even give red envelopes. We didn't even know what day Chinese New Year was.

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That's funny. Okay. And so when you guys moved to the US, did you guys immediately start like going to a church or how did that kind of happen? Yes, we did. That was-that was the most important thing, my mom thought that was the

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most important thing where we just we need to grow up in church. And the big deal every week, when I was in high school, was our mom driving us to church because the Chinese church that we went to-the closest one was still like, 45

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minutes away. And so and my mom is a kind of a timid driver. So, so I still remember going out to church, Ma wanted to go early. And, and yeah, that was uh, that was something about my mom would-would not compromise

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was that we had to go to church. Yeah. And how is that kind of like growing up, just being in a Chinese church in America specifically? Um, there were different stages.

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You know, when we were in high school first—before we had our own church in our own town, I would say going to the larger Chinese church in Boston, which is a church kind of like HCC, it was large, we were really just kind of attending.

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And a lot of time after church, my mom just grabbed the church lunch, and we just quickly get going because—And so, so we we knew people, we knew some people, but we didn't have many friends.

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But when-but when we but when we started the-their own fellowship in town, eventually started Sunday service at the Framingham, this was the town that we were at. And we first started in an

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elementary school that was right across the street from where we lived. So our families were always one of the first families to get there. And my first thing during those days was

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to line up the chairs. We would go there early to line up the chairs, and we leave-we would be the last ones to leave to put away the chairs. So in chur-in later church planting and things like that, that really, that that really brought back memories.

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Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so what part, I guess when did you start having that idea of becoming a pastor or like going into ministry?

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Oh, later. Later. I-high school, you know, I was an electrical engineering major. I—at a certain point, I began to have certain ambition, I thought maybe-maybe I could invent something or have my

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own company one day or something like that. That was the kind of dream that I have for myself. Until probably about senior year in college, where I think the transition point was I attended one of the I think the second

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CMC conference, out in DC. And, and it was for the first time I was challenged with the idea that God may want to do something different with my life.

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And I-I-I answered, I answered the altar call to-to pray about what God may want. And I would remember I was quite frightened by the fact that I raised my hand. And then about two years later, when I was working and attended

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Urbana, and that was again an affirmation where I felt like I felt like—it was that point, I felt like my future was not in engineering. And God wanted me to do something different.

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Although at first I thought maybe I could be a tentmaker and maybe teach university someplace or China or someplace like that. Um, but sometime after that, I

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became convinced that I-I wanted to be more equipped in the Word of God. And when I went to seminary, that's when the pastoral ministry was in need. And when I think back about what the local church life had meant to me,

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uh, that became-that became something I became interested and sensed a call to. Yeah. And so what college did you go to again? I went to a school called Tufts, Tufts University in Boston.

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Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. And then what kind of made you decide to go there? Oh, scholarship. Uh, my-my-my big thing for people who know my story was that my dream

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school was MIT. But I was waitlisted there. But, but I got accepted at Tufts and got a very nice scholarship. And that was a very, very important thing for us.

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So actually, when I decided to go to Tufts, I decided to go there sight unseen. It was just, you know, I applied to just a couple places. It seemed like, okay, we'll

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go there. We'll see what that looks like. Yeah, interesting. That's funny, and so you study electrical engineering, right? And what kind of made you decide to go into that major? Um, not sure.

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I-I-I didn't, I was I was a electrical engineering and physics major. I was interested in physics, but I wasn't sure there were jobs in physics at the time. But, uh, but but but then, um, I,

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you know, I was in engineering, school of engineering, I felt like I wasn't as good at mechanical engineering, I felt the chemical engineering might be kind of dangerous. And, um, I didn't think about this other later on, you know, bio,

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medical or the other fancy stuff. So I just thought electrical engineering just seems like a natural place to be because, you know, I was a little geeky, I liked playing video games, played computer stuff. And that's just

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seemed like the natural place to go. So that was, that was what happened. Uh huh. Yeah. And what communities were you part of, in college? Any like other clubs you were a part of?

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Yeah, my first—my first two years in college, um, I wasn't in a lot of community-I was just in the dorm with a lot of people, in a all-guys dorm.

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And in a not very God honoring lifestyle either. Because I was really, I was really a little unhappy with God. I was a little unhappy with the fact that I wasn't at MIT.

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And I really felt like my first two years that I had something to prove. So I studied really hard. I hung out with the people that seemed

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cool in the dorm. I-I particularly stayed away from Asian American and Asian American groups. I think it's about a part of me coming out of high school being picked on

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and all that I just really, really wanted to fit in with the cool people. And so I still remember I was invited to these Asian functions and stuff like that.

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I usually just like totally dismiss them, I never even bothered. And I wasn't even involved with any campus Christian organization things. I went to church, because I felt that it was an obligation. I'm a Christian, I need to go to church.

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But, uh, at my church, it was a big church in Boston. Um, there were a lot of MIT people there. And that didn't that didn't sit well with me at all. So, um, so I wasn't very

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involved. My first two years, any community I was involved in was all academic. Academic or just some fun things with friends. I played a lot of frisbee golf, some-some sports things, some different stuff.

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But I had, I was distant from God. And I was maybe even a little bit upset. Right. Yeah. And so was there any point where you kind of started drifting

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toward those Asian American communities again? Yeah, I will say-I would say the-the my journey shifted starting my junior year, I think toward the end of

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Febru-end of my sophomore year. When you know, we were in an all-guys dorm. There were a lot of pornography, a lot of um, a lot of

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times, sometimes people get drunk, pull the fire alarm, and all guys dorm, you see like just tons of girls came out. And so, um, toward the end of my sophomore year, I became convicted,

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that I wasn't living, like who Jesus want me to. And that-and that doubt, that was not who I was supposed to be. So I restarted reading the Bible, and I became convicted that I need a change of pace.

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And so junior year, I roomed together with-with a group of guys who were a little different. And in, you know, I was really, you know, a fairly shy, introverted person.

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And, um, but for some reason, I, I saw a flyer for an Asian Bi-American Bible study. And I just went, uninvited. And, and I met some, some of my best friends from college

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there. It was a very small group. I mean compared to like, Rice or UT. I mean, we're talking about, you know, when we have seven people, that's a great fellowship.

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You know, yeah, usually about four or five people. That's just how small it was. But, but starting my-starting my junior year, um, you know, I started studying the Bible again.

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I started really having a Christian community and fellowship again. And it's because some of the guys went to a different church. And I went with them to this church in Chinatown together. And I got involved in the church college fellowship

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as well. Got involved in the leadership team there. And that's how I actually started getting back, connected with the Asian American community. I would say that it was-it started by going back to my faith and that's how I

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went back into the Asian community. It wasn't so much just what I was looking forward to get back to. But I think that there may have been be a-a-a desire or a hunger inside that I wasn't aware of.

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That’s interesting. Yeah, interesting. Okay, cool. And then so after you graduated, where did you go again? After I graduated, I worked. I worked as a, uh, in a semiconductor company called

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Analog Devices in Boston. I actually had wanted to go to grad school. I applied for MIT again, I got waitlisted again. I was most un-

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unhappy. Although I was very blessed, I actually had received a fellowship, a full paid fellowship for my masters. So my professor had asked me if I-if I'll just go and take that fellowship offer to school, they'll-they'll let me in.

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But I was, I was my pride was too-have too much pride at that point. I said, that's it. I'll never go to MIT. I'm gonna work for a couple of years.

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And I'm going West Coast in a couple years. And so I asked the fellowship, I requested a deferment on my fellowship. And I decided to get a little bit of work experience first.

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But there was another-another reason another reason in that is family. Because at that time, my brother also went out to, to college. So my mom was by herself at home. And she didn't—her English was just never really that good.

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And, you know, we talked about it. And I just felt like, it's not a good idea for mom to live by herself. So I decided that I will move back home to live with mom and I'll work a couple years, and then I will go to grad school again.

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So, so that was, so I started working as a product engineer at Analog Devices. Okay, cool. And then did you ever end up going to grad school or did you go to seminary? No, after two years, I quit and went to seminary.

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That's funny. And so, I think I-from what I remember, you mentioned like when you first started thinking about going to seminary and going into ministry, that was like late college, I think you said? Or was that while

00:29:28.820 - 00:29:37.570

you were working? Yes, yes, yes. Senior year in senior year in college, I started considering the possibility that God may have something different for me to do.

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But when I started working and that, um uh, it became more clear to me that you know, this is uh-I don't want to this for the rest of my life. I was not happy-I felt—it's a really dumb thing. I felt I was too smart for the job.

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I didn't do, I was too good for that. And my boss could tell about that. And they moved me. So I got moved after a year from product engineering into design engineering.

00:30:06.350 - 00:30:18.800

So I started learning about computer chip design work. So I was given a mentor to work under the mentor for chip design work and I was given my first project re-a redesign project. And at that time, I was really seriously

00:30:18.800 - 00:30:34.690

considering seminary. But-but the question in my mind was that, do I just need a new job? Or am I really called to ministry? And it's just not that clear to me. And so I was praying, and I felt it-it-when I was given that job to go

00:30:34.690 - 00:30:47.370

the design, I felt like there was an answer to prayer, I felt I really just want to see will I love this job, and will— and and it was really interesting, because I had to work really, really hard during that time. My first year as

00:30:47.430 - 00:31:00.410

product engineer, I felt like I just coasted, there's really not much to do. Everything was so simple. But I was doing the design engineering work, there was a lot of things I didn't know, because I'd never taken a master level

00:31:00.640 - 00:31:13.370

training in in the VR set design or any of those things. So I had to learn, learn a lot of things on the run. And I found that I really loved it. I really loved to work, a lot more.

00:31:14.200 - 00:31:29.100

But I felt like God also showed me that even though I enjoy the work, it was still not what I wanted to do. That that I wanted to do something else. And so I felt that God gave me that opportunity to confirm for me

00:31:30.200 - 00:31:42.100

that that I indeed had a sense of calling. And I want to go and do something different. Yeah, that's great. And then so you quit and then went to seminary in Dallas,

00:31:42.260 - 00:31:56.530

right? Right. Okay. And then I guess so did you-did you move to Dallas—so you moved to Dallas, and then went to seminary there, what about like your siblings and your mom?

00:31:57.070 - 00:32:06.610

Yeah. So when I—two years later, my sister graduated from college. And she moved back home. And I talked to my sister.

00:32:07.150 - 00:32:17.390

And this is another thing where I was just so blessed, like our siblings, my siblings, just so supportive of each other. And my sister just right away, say, you know, you go, you know, I'll take care of mom, and don't worry.

00:32:18.060 - 00:32:29.640

And so and, and my mom was also very gracious and supportive. Once she heard about I had an interest in going to seminary, and she just started praying for me. She just said, you know, go, don't worry about me.

00:32:30.380 - 00:32:43.430

And so when I hear, you know, a lot of time for Asian Americans, if you want to go into ministry, it's a real struggle with their families. And I I have a very blessed story because my family-my parents-my family are just very supportive.

00:32:44.360 - 00:32:59.040

So my sister moved back home and I went-I moved to Dallas. And then, I guess, starting out in seminary, did you have any specific ministry that you wanted to work in at that time? Or were you just kind of there?

00:32:59.040 - 00:33:13.870

I didn't know, I had no idea. I just, I just, I just realized that I needed to have a lot of growing to do. And, you know, there wasn't much to do. The-the need, there was a lot of needs in youth ministry.

00:33:14.440 - 00:33:27.810

So I just jumped right into youth ministry there. I actually had done a little bit of that back in Boston. But during-during that two years I was working, I was sort of helping out-I had moved after

00:33:27.870 - 00:33:42.710

Urbana that was there, I moved back home to our home church in Framingham, the small church. Because-because I wanted to be Boston because everybody my same age. My peers are all there and at the suburban

00:33:43.270 - 00:33:58.230

church, where I grew up in, there's no one my age, they're all families, you know, and it's just kids. But after Urbana I was really convicted, I felt like okay, I cannot speak of wanting to do any ministry, if I can't go back to my home church to help.

00:33:58.780 - 00:34:13.640

So I made a decision, on Friday night, I would go after work into the city to have fellowship with my peers. On Sunday and Saturday, I would serve in my home church, in the suburb.

00:34:14.220 - 00:34:28.530

So I actually became a deacon, I helped with-would help with youth ministry, I translated sermons. And-and when I went to seminary, I continued to do some of that-of that work and was continued to be involved in youth ministry at that time.

00:34:28.570 - 00:34:43.650

So-so actually, I was using mostly English and doing English ministry. Yeah, so in Dallas, did you also attend like a Chinese or Asian American church? Yes, yes I did. I-I went to the Dallas Chinese Bible Church, the DCBC.

00:34:44.090 - 00:34:56.990

I was there for all four years, and um, just really blessed. At that church, was involved with learn, did a youth ministry internship under

00:34:57.050 - 00:35:11.630

Pastor Ed Lee, who was at Fort Bend and then later on went to The Mosaic Church. And so and then um, so and then over there, I also-I also got involved with some

00:35:13.380 - 00:35:24.370

evangelistic Bible study at the medical school at Southwestern Medical School. Where another seminarian and I will go in there and do Bible study with some of the mainland Chinese there.

00:35:24.760 - 00:35:42.130

So that was the first place I started using Chinese again in ministry. Because up to this point, I have pretty much kind of dropped Chinese. You know, pretty much in an English-speaking world. But but that means we start—and also because I was doing some translation.

00:35:42.810 - 00:35:54.930

And I used to do mostly is that in my home church was that the Chinese speaker will come and the youth, we didn't have an English speaker, so I would translate that Chinese message into English.

00:35:55.490 - 00:36:11.190

But when I was at DCBC, they actually asked me sometimes to translate from English to Chinese. So that kind of forced me to kind of start working on that. And-and, you know, in retrospect, you know, God kind of had a purpose in all of that

00:36:11.950 - 00:36:28.330

too, so that I didn't lose all of this. Right? Yeah. And so, I'm curious to hear like, when you went to Dallas and then you kind of like had your own-you had your own independence in choosing what church to go to,

00:36:28.330 - 00:36:40.420

why did you choose specifically a Chinese church rather than like, a non-Chinese church? Yeah, it's a-it's a great question. Um, um, my pastor, while I

00:36:40.420 - 00:36:54.920

was in Boston, doing the last two years in college in Chinatown, Pastor Steven Chin, um, he had-after I graduated from college, he had went back to DTS to finish his studies.

00:36:55.460 - 00:37:08.000

Because apparently he, he didn't finish all his study. So when I went to Dallas, he just finished his study, and he was coming back, going back to Boston. So-so I got reconnected with Pastor Steve, and-and—so

00:37:10.380 - 00:37:28.640

he introduced me to some of the other Chinese students and that. And for some reason, yeah, it just, it never occurred to me to kind of go to say, a—there are many great churches in the Dallas area, like Tony Evans' church,

00:37:28.640 - 00:37:43.500

a church that I would really love to learn more about. But somehow, I just felt like, there was a lot of needs in the Chinese church. And during those days, especially those who doing youth and English ministry, are very few and

00:37:43.500 - 00:37:57.050

far in between. Most churches don't have that. Even if you want to hire somebody, you can't find somebody. So somehow, I just felt like, okay, that seemed like an area that I can serve. And so I just, I just plugged in right

00:37:57.080 - 00:38:12.050

there. And-and I'll just say, you know, I've really grown to—I think the-those are the years where I kind of started to really developing my love for the Chinese church, seeing all the warts and the problems as well as the good,

00:38:12.050 - 00:38:22.010

um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And was there anyone or like any moment, any events that kind of inspired you to become a

00:38:22.010 - 00:38:43.620

pastor? Um, I'm not sure if there was a single moment that did that. But I think the time there was people, um, and I do know that I enjoy uh, working on preaching.

00:38:45.390 - 00:39:01.160

I and I, and I felt like a enjoy being with people. And, and, and it seemed like, there were not enough pastors. And, and so it just feel like—it almost didn't feel like a

00:39:01.210 - 00:39:16.690

conscious decision, where I just choose pastoring over something else. And somehow, when I started doing it, I also thought that maybe I wouldn't do it for the rest of my life. That I may still go back to do missions or something overseas

00:39:16.690 - 00:39:27.040

or in Asia someplace. Um, but, um, but it just, it just happened. I enjoyed being with people. I enjoyed teaching

00:39:27.040 - 00:39:44.610

and preaching. And I learned um—I didn't know about leadership, but I felt like I've learned about that. And-and- and uh, it just felt like a good fit. And over the years as I look back, I felt like yeah, it is a good fit.

00:39:45.110 - 00:39:59.550

But but back then. I didn't really think that way. It just seemed to me like, yeah, that seemed like a natural thing to do. Yeah, so I guess, I guess it wasn't like a hard decision either. Kind of easy. It wasn't.

00:39:59.550 - 00:40:08.990

It wasn't a hard decision. Kind of-interesting. Okay. And so after you graduated from seminary, where did you go? Did you go to WHCC?

00:40:09.810 - 00:40:29.910

Yeah, actually, um, my old church in Boston, the small church I was in, um growing up there was always a lot of like, stories, drama, issues and things. And so you hear a lot of, and when you're in school, you hear

00:40:29.910 - 00:40:46.850

a lot about, like horror stories about church, especially Chinese church. People conflict, church splits, all this other stuff. So honest truth in the circle that we're in, I mean, Chinese church doesn't have the best reputation.

00:40:47.840 - 00:41:06.470

And I was in-I was at DTS, and one of my best friend there, Greg Wong, he was a former missionary supported by HCC. And he had always talked about HCC, Houston Chinese Church, about how great

00:41:06.470 - 00:41:15.580

it is. And I was just puzzled. Because I never really hear people say great things about the Chinese church. And I said you know, I've got to take a look at this.

00:41:16.250 - 00:41:31.460

So-so I actually wrote a letter to HCC, and asked if I could intern one summer, at Houston Chinese Church. Well, they, they wrote me back and said, well there was no

00:41:31.460 - 00:41:39.250

room for internship. But they're starting a new church called West Houston. They said how about if you go there and intern. And I was

00:41:39.250 - 00:41:48.120

like, hey, I want to go to HCC. I don't know what this WHCC is. I'm not interested in that. So-so I just said, well no thanks.

00:41:49.440 - 00:42:07.380

So-so my last, my last year in seminary, I actually went back home to Boston, and helped at my, my home church there. But, um, I was invited to, by WHCC, to speak at a church retreat, their church

00:42:07.680 - 00:42:21.880

retreat as the English youth speaker. So um, so it was right at the, you know, I was at DTS for four years. So it was my in the beginning of my fourth year, I was—I spoke there over Labor Day weekend.

00:42:22.730 - 00:42:35.240

And um, and it was just such a-there were just so many great people there. And they just asked me to say, hey, you know, um you want to come down during the regular school year and help us out?

00:42:35.610 - 00:42:45.230

We have a lot of youth, we need a lot help. And this was when WHCC just got started. So they asked me if I would go back-go down there weekly. And I said I

00:42:45.230 - 00:42:58.610

can't go weekly. Uh, you know, that'd kill me. And so they were very, they were very persistent. They were like, well, how about like, every other week? I said every other week? That's, that's still pretty hard too.

00:42:59.150 - 00:43:08.000

And then they were like, oh, okay. And they said how about if you come once a month. Well I said you know that that sounds a little more reasonable. But I said, you know, I don't even have a car.

00:43:08.520 - 00:43:21.380

And so and so they said, oh, no, you don't need a car. We'll just fly you down. So-so my last year at Dallas Seminary, W flew me down.

00:43:21.450 - 00:43:36.560

I flew on Southwest they booked early, get the cheap um, back in those days, the cheap roundtrip fare. And I would fly down and pick up a rental car, drive to WHCC, help with Friday night fellowship, Saturday getting involved

00:43:36.560 - 00:43:51.660

visiting kids and doing discipleship. Sunday morning teach Sunday school, uh speak, Sunday afternoon doing meetings, and then fly back to Da-to Dallas on Sunday afternoon. So, after a year of that, I never

00:43:51.710 - 00:44:01.760

interviewed anywhere. Once again, I didn't really get interview or things. It just felt like you know, I've really grown to love those people.

00:44:02.030 - 00:44:11.720

And the kids there, they're just really great. Are they said hey how about you just come down and be our youth or English pastor. And I said, yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

00:44:13.010 - 00:44:21.220

So you didn't have to like apply or anything? They just kind of— Well I did apply, I did apply. I didn't apply like elsewhere. Like my wife asked me, "How

00:44:21.220 - 00:44:30.000

come you didn't-how come you didn't apply elsewhere? How come you didn't consider other-how didn't you think about California?" It just never really occurred to me. Yeah, that's funny.

00:44:30.520 - 00:44:48.070

Okay, so you've been there—so how long has been like WHCC been formed when you started there? I-I went—I got there the second year at WHCC Okay. Yeah. So you know, I was-so actually I started full time at WHCC

00:44:49.220 - 00:45:01.440

in '93 and WHCC and WHCC was planted in '91. So by-by-by '92 I was already interning there the whole the whole— Right.

00:45:02.470 - 00:45:15.540

Okay. And so WHCC was HCC's first church plant, right? Oh. The first church plant will be Clear Lake. And WHCC will be the second one.

00:45:15.720 - 00:45:29.640

And then Fort Bend will be the third one. I see. Okay. And then what about-do you know anything about like the one in Kazakhstan? I don't know like, was that later? Yes, yes. Uh, that actually happened, I think in

00:45:32.100 - 00:45:46.870

between right around the time W was planted to and right before that, where I don't know the exact year. But but but I would, I would become more aware of that, because Pastor Chu who was involved with that, later on would become

00:45:47.360 - 00:46:04.490

one of our staff. And so so and yeah, so yes, Kazakhstan is also the Peace Church that that that uh, HCC had planted, yes. Okay, cool. And then um, I guess what was the purpose of HCC,

00:46:04.600 - 00:46:18.910

planting WHCC in that area? You know, I think a big part of that DNA was just that, you know, Houston was becoming a bigger, bigger enclave for Chinese Americans and Asian Americans.

00:46:20.330 - 00:46:31.920

And, you know, from the early days of where, you know, all around medical center area, or the old Chinatown, and then and then has developed into, you know, the city was developing westward.

00:46:32.880 - 00:46:48.930

And so, as more more family move out there, so there was this aspiration, let's plant churches out there. And so so so HCC has always kind of had a DNA. And that was one of the thing also, that attracted me to come here because I felt like it was a very forward thinking about, you

00:46:48.930 - 00:46:58.750

know, planting churches and starting new work. And so I still remember, when I first got to WHCC, we were at a rental place, in an office

00:46:58.780 - 00:47:14.230

building. And we didn't have enough classrooms. So Sunday morning for discipleships, I'll get there early. And we would bring chairs outside-out to the hallway to outside, to the hallway. So it's kind of a, you know, kind of,

00:47:14.230 - 00:47:26.450

there's just a little bit of cover to the garage-to the parking lot. And so we will put-lined up chairs in a circle. And we would do discipleship out there. So, again, that that that brought back memories of when I was in high school,

00:47:27.010 - 00:47:42.040

lining up chairs for church. They are very sweet memories, because those were the days where we didn't have an office. We didn't have a gym. We didn't have multiple staff.

00:47:43.550 - 00:47:56.620

We had very little. But there was some really great people there. And so yeah, so so in that church planting DNA in a way I felt became important part at W too,

00:47:57.270 - 00:48:07.840

subsequently for us. Where I felt our people from the very beginning have always said, Okay, one day, we're going to plant churches too. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

00:48:07.840 - 00:48:21.320

And so when did W get their like own building? Um, I think I think when I was there, maybe about a year or two years into it, they bought a piece of property near that office park.

00:48:21.920 - 00:48:35.100

And about five years into it. I think we built our first building. So we started we started ministry there. Yeah, so um, you know, I think I

00:48:35.100 - 00:48:48.130

think there's more than a spiritual dynamic for this movement to plant churches. Because I think for many immigrants there's a dual interest there's an interest

00:48:48.130 - 00:49:03.690

wanting to see God's name honored and they have a place of where—a place to continue to do to grow in their faith. But also think that it it's also become kind of a cultural enclave where in a way it become a home away from

00:49:03.920 - 00:49:18.940

home. So I felt like there's a there's a real synergy that draw these early waves of church planting movement among Asians, among Chinese Americans. Yeah, yeah. Wanting to plant new churches.

00:49:19.350 - 00:49:33.640

And, and, and there's also a real sense of accomplishment. I don't think we can underestimate that people feel like they accomplished something. As immigrants far away from home, on their building something of their own or something, they can take pride in something

00:49:33.640 - 00:49:48.630

they feel like mattered for eternity. And all these factors help drive I think the-the passion for church planting. Yeah, so what were the interactions between like, WHCC and I know CBC has

00:49:48.630 - 00:50:03.400

been there too, so like, what were the interactions between W and the other Chinese churches including like HCC and such? Yeah, there's there's this always a there's there's a fellowship called HCCMF which is like Houston

00:50:03.400 - 00:50:12.810

Ministerial, uh, Houston Chinese Christian Ministerial fellowship. Okay. So the pact is kind of local Chinese pastors fellowship.

00:50:13.430 - 00:50:26.880

And so there's that level of connection there. But I would say they're more cordial. And I think that fellowship has grown over the years, I think now it's-I feel has matured more. But those early

00:50:26.880 - 00:50:40.960

days, I would have felt it was a more cordial, almost like a professionals gathering of pastors and just, you know, they catch up with each other about what they're doing and things like that. Right. Um, but, um, but on the English side of ministry, though, I

00:50:40.960 - 00:50:58.770

felt that we actually had a little bit more. So when I first came, I right away visited the English pastor at CBC, I visited Pastor Fred, and but during those days Pastor Paul Ep, who was also at Houston Chinese Church, the youth

00:50:58.890 - 00:51:14.470

pastor, and we just became great friends. And I will say, you know, Fred and Paul, had just been not just personal friends and friends with-our wives became friends, but but become like personal like mentors to

00:51:15.190 - 00:51:26.810

me. So so we get together for accountability, to pray, to catch up. It was just much more than another pastor friend that you find at a church. It never really felt

00:51:27.170 - 00:51:37.850

like we're competing. It felt like we are, we're all working towards the same goal. And we’re sharing about what we're learning, and I really would say, I felt when people asked me

00:51:38.260 - 00:51:51.480

about the years I've spent here, and that there's a degree of longevity here. And I felt like that level of fellowship, that that level of friendship that we shared, really is another factor that helped sustain.

00:51:52.220 - 00:52:05.470

That that there was just something very special that we share, and gra- gradually that grew going to a fellowship. And you know we started meeting up with other pastors, so CBC pastors were part of it and they'd—And actually,

00:52:06.360 - 00:52:19.490

for a long time, there was a group called uh, called CMT called Chinese Ministry of Texas. It's a English pastors gathering in Texas.

00:52:20.010 - 00:52:33.380

Some people from-all pastors for Austin, Dallas, and Houston will get together. And back in those days, it was mainly like Austin Chinese Church, DCBC, and HCC. And that's all, just the big churches.

00:52:34.320 - 00:52:46.420

But then later on when I came, it marked a second wave of newer, younger guys. And we just all just hit it off, and just really, we just really enjoy being together.

00:52:47.320 - 00:53:00.390

And then some years later, we re-we adapt, we change, we changed the name from CMT to PAACT, which is Partnership of Asian American Churches in Texas. So PACCT is now much larger now.

00:53:00.390 - 00:53:15.610

They represent about 12 or 13 Chinese churches, I don't remember exactly now. And so that fellowship has become something very special to me personally, and I think to a lot of the pastors. So, so and

00:53:15.610 - 00:53:29.600

we ended up doing a lot of different things. So in some sense PAACT, as a fellowship, I think has deeper relational, uh, ties than say the Chinese-speaking

00:53:30.280 - 00:53:44.970

counterparts. Okay. But but but meaning the pastors between these different cities, the Chinese pastors between these different cities, they are connected, but very loosely. Right, right. But they don't have something like PAACT and PAACT, among the

00:53:45.030 - 00:53:57.000

English-speaking pastors and the youth pastors, they're just, it just formed a bond that where we just are actually when we do something together, it's almost an excuse to get together.

00:53:57.070 - 00:54:09.190

It's just really great to be together. And I felt like that, um, that was something that God had been very merciful with us and was really instrumental for all the developments.

00:54:09.470 - 00:54:22.520

I think it helped. Yeah, like everybody to kind of help each other growing in support of each other till this day, yeah. So why do you kind of think that is like, why do you think the Chinese-speaking pastor at Chinese churches

00:54:22.900 - 00:54:38.360

are more loosely rel-loosely close to each other, whereas the English-speaking pastors at Chinese churches are like, more tight knit? Do you think there's like a cultural kind of factor in it? Might be, it's really a tough call.

00:54:38.720 - 00:54:56.300

It's really a tough call. Uh, I, you know, um, you go to places-because I've heard people telling me, like places like California or Chicago or New York, where Chinese churches have-runs a much longer history, but they don't have similar phenomenon.

00:54:57.570 - 00:55:12.490

There, so I felt like it really is a-I really see it in a way as a special grace of God. Where a special group of people, uh, coming together and we just really admire and respect each other and just become fast friends.

00:55:12.980 - 00:55:24.690

And so nowadays, you know, it would be like Pastor Gaylord in Austin, or that's also the younger group now like Pastor David Tan and DCBC. Or even seem like younger guys like Jason-Jason Tarn.

00:55:25.460 - 00:55:42.100

Just like, um yeah, it's just, it just has been really a life-giving fellowship. But I will-but I will say, though, I think the Chinese-speaking fellowship is also growing. But but but, but also because a lot of times, there's more turnovers.

00:55:43.270 - 00:55:58.730

I see. I think the turnovers affect the fellowship. And the heart of PAACT, some of the key people involved, these are people who all have stayed a long time. Look at Pastor Fred, you know, I think I’ve been here a

00:55:58.730 - 00:56:09.620

long time, Pastor Fred, you know puts me to shame. So so so that longevity, I think also make those friendships more special. Interesting.

00:56:09.700 - 00:56:22.470

Yeah. That's interesting. And so, were you like the first English pastor at W or? First one, okay. And so did that kind of start the English ministry, entire English

00:56:22.510 - 00:56:38.720

ministry, or? Yeah, when I came there was a youth ministry. So you know, we call it English ministry, so we started on that. Yeah, but you know, we learned so much from our sister churches, HCC, and that. There was just a lot of

00:56:38.800 - 00:56:52.960

great things happening there. Yeah. And so what is like W's ultimate mission? Do they have like a mission statement? Yeah. We have updated several, several versions

00:56:53.410 - 00:57:05.210

of it. I think a earlier version that we used was "Sharing the journey of life transformation in Christ." And I will say that, you know, life transformation has always been at the heart of our mission.

00:57:06.470 - 00:57:23.520

So, and-and even though right now, we're having different versions of it, in fact, we're actually redoing another version for our 30th anniversary coming up next year. But the whole idea life transformation has always been at the heart of, I think, our mission, we felt

00:57:24.090 - 00:57:38.490

like, we want to see as we minister to both Chinese Americans and everybody, our neighbors here that we want to see people's lives changed because of Jesus Christ. Uh, yeah.

00:57:39.310 - 00:57:54.630

I always, yeah. I was just gonna say that a conviction I've kind of always kind of had, and this kind of dawned on me some years, a number of years ago. You know, I'm actually quite interested in history and Chinese

00:57:54.630 - 00:58:09.140

history as a kid. And, and, you know, Chinese boasts a very long history. And I was just thinking, I said, you know, if Chinese boasts 5000 years of history, and there were many golden

00:58:10.030 - 00:58:27.660

eras, you know, the Han Dynasty, Tang dynasty. But I was seeing that, as it may not have felt like, for the Chinese Americans here, so so I just thought, I thought, is it reasonable to

00:58:28.530 - 00:58:45.040

propose or postulate that this generation of Chinese Americans here was the material blessing, and the opportunity and the freedom and the prosperity, the availability to us?

00:58:45.890 - 00:59:05.690

Could it be that this generation of Chinese Americans, actually might be some of the most blessed or most abundantly provided for of all the generations in 5000 years, even in the golden year of the Chinese history, they would

00:59:05.690 - 00:59:23.650

not have the kind of diversity, the kind of opportunity or the kind of-so I would just-I would argue that I'm not sure I can prove the case, but I do think that it is a not an unreasonable speculation to say that, you know, we will be among you know

00:59:23.730 - 00:59:38.510

5000 years, you know, countless trillions of humanity in China, that has birthed, that we will be some of the most blessed with opportunity. And if that's so, what does God want to do with us?

00:59:39.040 - 00:59:55.590

And if to whom much is given, much is required. That that will make a great sense for us trying to do great things with this generation, because we're so blessed with resources, learning, opportunity to do great things for God.

00:59:56.550 - 01:00:11.850

Yeah, that's interesting. And so what is kind of like your goal, your personal goal as the senior pastor at W? Oh, that's a good question. I think I think I think what I just shared is definitely connected to a

01:00:11.920 - 01:00:29.910

part of it. I felt-I do feel like, you know, it's very easy for us to become a comfortable, inward-focused community. Because most of, you know, whether it be your parents, or I myself being first

01:00:29.910 - 01:00:46.540

generation, in that sense, to—or one and a half, depends on how you measure it—most came here for so-called a better life. But I like to think that in God's

01:00:46.650 - 01:01:02.070

plan, we're not here for a better life, we're-we're here for, there's a greater purpose to serve. And, and, and so I feel my job, at the end of the day, is to help and I

01:01:02.250 - 01:01:18.490

felt like as a community that, you know, we're a community of our own right, in a in a being a force in our community, that how can we play the role and fulfill the destiny that God

01:01:18.810 - 01:01:33.430

called us here for. Whether it be becoming a sending base for the sake of the gospel around the world, which is something we aspire to continue to be a sending church, which I feel like HCC was

01:01:33.430 - 01:01:48.770

that way too. Whether it be continue to multiply with the work of multiplication locally, in terms of planting more churches that would be outwardly thinking, that will be a blessing to our community, that will

01:01:48.770 - 01:02:06.680

be that will bring transformation. I just think that my purpose would be trying to make sure that we don't become inward focused, but we that we can fulfill the diverse possibility that God has invested in

01:02:07.040 - 01:02:24.870

this community here to do great things for God. A story that I like to share often is when-when Jamie Taylor, which is Hudson Taylor's great-grandson. He has spoken at HCC before he is a very popular speaker.

01:02:24.950 - 01:02:43.050

So anyway, so he was sharing with me-us about, yeah, I think was when, when he went back to England, where the town where Hudson Taylor grew up in, and he went to church there. That's where Hudson Taylor had gone to church as a child.

01:02:43.050 - 01:02:57.780

And, and and the uh, and Hudson and the, and when they shared, they made a quick presentation about what God has done, through Hudson-through Jamie Taylor and Hudson Taylor, just all the Taylor family in China, all that. And he said that he said that the

01:02:57.960 - 01:03:13.250

elder of the church said, you know, it was so great to hear about all these great things have been done. And he said, you know, you know, we're so glad that some of England had helped so many in China to know Jesus.

01:03:13.930 - 01:03:28.850

He said, but but I need to tell you that today, we're not in the same shape anymore. He said that we're praying that maybe a son of China will help will help reverse the tie, where they are right now.

01:03:29.250 - 01:03:45.830

So I just thought, I just thought that I think Asian American, as we take increasing leadership in various fields, you know, it used to be mainly in technology or trends, but now it's increasingly in tech-in uh, in education, in

01:03:45.890 - 01:04:02.830

politics, in nonprofit leadership. You know, recently I was, I was musing with someone about how several key leaders of non—key Christian nonprofits in the city of Houston, are led by, you know, young Asian American

01:04:03.220 - 01:04:16.510

women who are just doing great things. I'll just say, you know, what a great thing to see. So I just feel like that, you know, we have to, we're not here to receive a blessing, we're

01:04:16.510 - 01:04:27.930

here to be a blessing. And for me, I think whatever that may be, I hope I can lead our church to facilitate that process. So that locally,

01:04:28.430 - 01:04:41.360

internationally, cross-culturally, that our church can help make a difference in terms of transforming our world with the gospel. Yeah.

01:04:41.680 - 01:04:57.050

That's great. And does W, does W like, do any, I think I guess what you kind of what you mentioned, cross-cultural outreach, as in trying to bring in more non-Chinese Americans or non-Asian Americans into

01:04:59.610 - 01:05:11.390

the church? It's limited. We-I will say that that represents some of the challenges facing like churches for our kind. I feel

01:05:11.390 - 01:05:27.940

something is happening already in the sense of, just through our intercultural marriages, that we are seeing people come together. But I also think that um, and this is this is part of the struggle too.

01:05:30.600 - 01:05:45.630

I think God is raising up our some of our young people with an aspiration to lead multicultural congregations and churches. And we already see that so both my church and HCC, Houston Chinese Church, have people,

01:05:45.630 - 01:06:02.710

uh, people, young guys that I respect a great deal that's today serving as leaders of multicultural churches around the country. But at the same time, I do feel that I'm not quite ready

01:06:02.710 - 01:06:21.860

to turn WHCC, try to move it into a fully multicultural for a couple of reasons. One of them would be that, um, the percentage of reached people in this city, say

01:06:21.990 - 01:06:37.320

in terms of Chinese Americans, you know, just all generations, it's less than 10%, it's less than 10%. But whether you want to talk about white Americans, black Americans, Latino Americans in terms of their

01:06:37.550 - 01:06:53.180

gospel penetrations in any of those ethnic groups, I will say there are multiple times where we have. So I felt like that the needs among Chinese Americans remain substantial. So that's one thing. Okay.

01:06:53.680 - 01:07:08.690

But more than that, I feel but I do feel that the place of where we can maybe do more is how do we leverage the immigrant experience in a heritage that we carry, and to help even

01:07:08.910 - 01:07:24.800

other immigrant community to, to be successful and sharing our resources, and that. So in a—so for instance, so we uh, before the pandemic, we were hosting a Vietnamese church and a Russian church at W.

01:07:25.790 - 01:07:39.840

And we were really interested to see, okay, how can we maybe more than just providing space, but to begin to go to the next step to start thinking about how can we help, so that ministry among these other, you know, diverse groups

01:07:40.980 - 01:07:57.330

of the gospel can flourish. And so yeah, I do think that ethnic, congregational, ethnic churches, or nowadays, I think we're trying to come up with new terminology,

01:07:57.710 - 01:08:08.930

which is the Chinese heritage church. If you talk to Jason, he will talk about that language. And I like that heritage language. I think, um,

01:08:10.120 - 01:08:25.150

I think there's a rich heritage, that's not just meant for us to be successful in doing business or thrive where we go, and being good students or whatever, but that how can we bring that to help, again,

01:08:27.020 - 01:08:35.700

to live up God's intention for this immigrant community that started as an immigrant community, but now, you know, is much more than an immigrant community. Right. Yeah, interesting.

01:08:35.920 - 01:08:50.940

And so what is the current composition of the congregation at W right now, the English and Chinese? Um, yeah, I would say, you know, um, our Chinese congregation is definitely still larger.

01:08:51.480 - 01:09:03.490

Uh, you know, a mandarin congregation, um, I would say is probably represent 60-65% of the total. We have about, we have

01:09:03.490 - 01:09:20.560

maybe about maybe I say 15, uh 15%, maybe Cantonese, maybe 20-25% uh 20-25% English speaking. I will say another issue in English-speaking, is that I think most of the English-speaking congregation, being an English

01:09:20.790 - 01:09:38.420

pastor, former English pastor myself, uh, if you talk to most English-speaking pastors, that evangelism work for English-speaking ministry in Chinese churches are notoriously difficult. And this is been something that we

01:09:38.530 - 01:09:55.150

haven't really solved. It is particularly disheartening because when the English-speaking pastors compare their ministry to say the Chinese-speaking counterparts, but the Chinese side is baptizing you know, 20 people at a time

01:09:55.490 - 01:10:12.110

and English-speaking maybe baptizing you know, seven or eight, with five youth. You know, so, but again, I think that dynamic has come in to play, that the Chinese side has some advantage in reaching out to fellow

01:10:12.270 - 01:10:30.370

immigrants, who often seem to have maybe a slightly more receptive heart to help from the gospel or from church. English-speaking, next generation, just have

01:10:30.370 - 01:10:43.430

that much more options that they don't necessarily need to go through a Chinese church English-speaking ministry. Yeah, yeah. So that naturally makes the-your evangelism

01:10:44.850 - 01:10:56.660

outreach work more challenging. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, I also feel like because I mean, immigrants from China and Taiwan,

01:10:56.660 - 01:11:11.200

they haven't been coming to America for, you know, like that long, just maybe like, five, six generations. I like don't know anyone in the sixth generation. So I guess the English congregation is relatively younger.

01:11:11.680 - 01:11:25.610

And you know, like most of them come from the youth. And there's definitely like a difference in culture between the youth and like the Chinese-speaking adults. I don't know if that has kind of some sort of play into that as well.

01:11:26.390 - 01:11:40.720

That definitely, I think the youth definitely play that way. But I think I think we have, for the most part, at least in our more sizable churches, I like to think we are moving away from seeing English-speaking ministry as

01:11:40.720 - 01:11:57.550

just a glorified youth ministry. But to have them same, to share the same level of respect. And to see that the English-speaking, our congregation and generation can play a very active leadership role in the overall

01:11:57.600 - 01:12:19.020

Chinese church. Ultimately, I truly believe the future belongs to that group. And ultimately, I do believe that we need to actively prepare for that, to empower that into be very open to how we can think outside the box

01:12:20.060 - 01:12:35.040

in the way we do ministry, the way we engage the next generation, uh, to-with the gospel. Yeah. And so how have you kind of seen the size of the Chinese and Cantonese

01:12:35.040 - 01:12:48.960

congregations change since you started at W versus the English congregation? Um, it's a hard thing to say because because we each have-when we church plant, we send away people.

01:12:50.510 - 01:13:06.400

But but definitely, we definitely are still seeing stronger growth in the Chinese congregations. And okay, okay, but but the but I feel the English-speaking congregation is making

01:13:06.500 - 01:13:22.220

inroads in in a deeper desire to grow in our evangelistic fervor. And if we-I can give you an example, like I would hear this kind of story regularly,

01:13:22.610 - 01:13:36.370

like in the Chinese side, I somebody went to get a haircut and the next person getting haircut some new person is talking and next year they invite that person to come to church was invited into this small group. You just don't here this kind

01:13:36.370 - 01:13:52.450

of story pretty often, from the English-speaking. You just don't hear that, you know! You know? So so um, but but I feel like the pandemic and our current situation actually has a-I think it remains to be seen

01:13:52.550 - 01:14:05.350

an interesting effect of forcing us to think more about our neighborhood you know, because you know how we are just kind of going to church you know, out of our neighborhood nobody's-neither our church is totally community

01:14:05.410 - 01:14:23.150

church. You know, maybe Fort Ben is more of a community church, Katy may be more of a community church. Maybe we under-we downplay neighborhood because we we commute to our church, we commute to our work, with all that. But I think the pandemic has an effect of kind of

01:14:23.150 - 01:14:39.860

forcing us to think more again, on why community matters and neighborhoods matter and how we can be an impact on that. And Houston being the most diverse city in America, our neighborhood is a microcosm of so many different

01:14:39.860 - 01:14:54.350

people groups, and and how our English- speaking could take lead in in that way, to connect and to befriend, especially in this day and age with the tension

01:14:55.830 - 01:15:10.810

in the political field. I think-I hope, you know our people can be kind of the, the person of peace in a neighborhood that could that could help facilitate a

01:15:11.160 - 01:15:26.060

conversation that could help neighbors to know and love each other and to-and to see why Jesus come to to help us to love God and love neighbors. Right, yeah. And actually one of my, one of my supervisors, she was

01:15:26.090 - 01:15:40.920

like, going through your interviews, and I think she found the one where you spoke with Houston Responds in April. She wanted me to like ask about, or I think in the interview, you touched on how people are like, now more

01:15:40.920 - 01:15:53.100

receptive than ever to these kind of spiritual conversations in this like, kind of political-very tense, kind of situation. And then, I think you also

01:15:53.100 - 01:16:05.790

mentioned how W started launching, like different small groups around Houston or was that- Well, we, we, we started some new small groups in communities where we didn't have small groups before.

01:16:06.760 - 01:16:21.900

Because, and and, I wish we could do more, but it's not as easy. We're excited-and particularly some of that that's happening more. We have some English small groups starting too, but more happening is more is

01:16:21.930 - 01:16:38.000

with our Chinese-speaking groups out in Cypress, where where, where a lot of people are moving down out there, as kind of like that maybe the future is Sugar Land or Katy, you know, 10 years, in 10 years.

01:16:38.470 - 01:16:48.570

So brand new groups has started out there. We're just really excited because some of those groups started just at the beginning of the pandemic. And most recently, you know, we have baptism for people.

01:16:48.570 - 01:16:56.420

I was in at a-we did kind of these swimming pool baptisms. So we were at people's home and we did that there. And it was just really moving, I was

01:16:56.420 - 01:17:08.140

really excited to see that. So most of our church plant work that we have done start with the cell group basis, where just starting with one small group, multiplying to two groups, you know, to four

01:17:08.140 - 01:17:20.090

groups, and when you reach a certain number of small groups, then we can really talk about how a church can actually be birthed out of that. So so that's definitely a part of that.

01:17:21.050 - 01:17:36.250

Now, the-the, the I feel since the Houston Respond interview things have changed so much again. With, with the with the environment has become so much more toxic.

01:17:38.640 - 01:17:48.440

You know, I almost feel like that interview always feel like eons ago now. Because that was at the more at the beginning of the pandemic, where I felt there was a lot of

01:17:48.440 - 01:17:59.010

talk about you know we're in it together. You know, talking about that. I just hear people said we're in it together. I'm here people like you don't say like, you know, people take each other, you're missing

01:17:59.230 - 01:18:12.480

the fake news. Um, so um, yeah, I do feel we have a place in that we're still struggling trying to figure out what we did some Town Hall

01:18:12.480 - 01:18:27.190

kind of online town hall to talk about this. We invited an African American pastor to join us into a talk about and conversation about that. But we really need to figure out at some of the next step to continue the conversation.

01:18:28.450 - 01:18:43.330

But but I feel, um, I do feel the pressure and attention where some of that divisiveness is even seeping into the church. Yeah.

01:18:44.230 - 01:19:03.620

And and I feel that the problem I don't see the problem was just, you know, whether you your politics is more conservative or more liberal. I feel like we're not

01:19:04.380 - 01:19:24.980

really listening to each other. I feel like we are not reflecting more deeply about our own blind spots. Um, and and I feel

01:19:26.130 - 01:19:41.030

like the, the, the there's a lack of humility that we have with our neighbors. So so so the discussion I felt like we're um, we're letting what's

01:19:41.030 - 01:19:55.100

happening in the political realm taking lead even in the way we do relationships, our neighbors or our friends. I know people who've got mad with their friends because they they see things differently and in they started

01:19:55.100 - 01:20:12.060

arguing and debating and and that you know, and even in the social media sphere, people even calling names at each other. And, um, so yeah, again, I think I feel like, you know, Jesus came to reconcile the world to Himself.

01:20:12.750 - 01:20:24.150

You know we're given a ministry of reconciliation. So I like to think the church should have a place here and that the Chinese church can play an important role here.

01:20:24.960 - 01:20:36.120

But we're still trying to figure out and how that should look like, how that should look like. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any like, brainstormed ideas yet?

01:20:36.120 - 01:20:50.720

Or-it's a tough it's a tough thing. But but you know. But you know, I feel like, you know, as with the gospel, you know, Jesus doesn't do gospel um, like instant conversion of millions of people.

01:20:51.270 - 01:21:06.700

Right, mm hmm. Although God can do that, but-but Jesus saves people one at a time, as each person come to know His love, and experience the gospel. So and it seems kind of slow and ineffective, inefficient,

01:21:07.410 - 01:21:21.000

but it's actually a very powerful thing. And I like to think maybe at the end of the day, it’s still just us loving our neighbors, who may hold two very different belief.

01:21:21.520 - 01:21:36.400

And because of Jesus, and that and that we're showing the fact that, you know, we're not gonna let that kind of thing divide us. And that we recognize that some may give much more credence

01:21:36.400 - 01:21:53.300

to law and order, because of the way they were raised, and the world view they have, because sometimes we don't see things as they really are. Sometimes we really see things as we want to see them.

01:21:54.210 - 01:22:08.480

And so and so I think if we bear each other's burden more and speak with more humility, and just love each and love our neighbors, I think maybe at a grassroot level, we can try to tie that

01:22:10.070 - 01:22:23.970

that that is conjuring all the, you know, the poisonous stuff that's going on in the news, I think we need to watch a little less news. That's funny, that's true.

01:22:25.200 - 01:22:39.830

Okay, how have you like-or I guess, have you kind of tried to integrate, like the current situation, the current political tension, conversations into your own preaching?

01:22:41.050 - 01:22:57.350

We'll do a little bit but I have to say, you know, we're no, we're just we're learning how to do some of these things. It is uh, it is-we have talked about that we most recently did a reopening service and that's what we talked

01:22:57.350 - 01:23:15.080

about. To-which we really urging people to recognize that, for believers, there is no change in the sense of the leadership, God has not changed.

01:23:15.540 - 01:23:30.090

That that the political leaders landscape may change. And that not to put too much hope too much of our hope in political system. I think we it's fair to have convictions.

01:23:30.760 - 01:23:42.620

But but knowing that no human leadership will ultimately sat—bring the satisfaction that we're longing for. But I will say it is

01:23:42.620 - 01:23:57.360

challenging, especially because a good a good part of evangelical church is right in the thick of this. And that

01:23:57.360 - 01:24:11.320

makes the conversation harder, because people read and watch and listen to override your sources. I also think we're not praying enough. I don't think we're praying for our country enough.

01:24:12.270 - 01:24:28.370

I don't think we're praying for ourselves enough, you know, I don't think we are, and I don't think we're loving our enemies, you know. Yeah, I think we're becoming emotionally charged too easily, far too easily. Yeah.

01:24:29.250 - 01:24:42.910

And something I've been like talking about with my friends is how I've noticed there's been a pretty general shift of, I guess, mostly the youth in Chinese American churches toward the more left leaning kind of

01:24:43.650 - 01:24:56.670

ideology. Whereas, you know, traditionally, just Christians or Chinese churches are more conservative. I guess, like, do you have any thoughts on that as well? And maybe how that can play into-

01:24:56.780 - 01:25:07.550

Yeah, you know, certainly depends on who you're talking to. Because some people will say, my kids are thinking that way because the teachers in their schools are liberal, and they've been brainwashing my kids.

01:25:08.940 - 01:25:25.200

Um, you know, I wouldn't, you know, rule out 100% you know, there's no shreds of truth in the more progressive thinking in the academic community, but I don't think that's the whole

01:25:25.200 - 01:25:38.960

story. I just think I do think that, you know, um, there's always a pendulum swing, swing in, in history, you know, where you go to one side enough it's going to, it's going to self-correct or come back.

01:25:39.680 - 01:25:54.970

And I just feel like, you know, evangelicalism over the years, we are, we we value life, we, you know, and so, you know, we're pro-life, you know, and we want to support our government, we're pro-law and order.

01:25:55.790 - 01:26:14.450

You know, um, you know, and and and that lead to a number of position with things like that, um, but I feel like but when you look at the Bible, and what the gospel teaches, it isn't all just

01:26:14.700 - 01:26:25.640

about that. There is very much a sign about loving the poor, and Jesus being with the poor. There is very much a

01:26:25.640 - 01:26:40.360

call for social justice and justice. And I like to think that it's kind of similar to, um, you know, Jesus talking to the Pharisees and say that, you know, um, it's not

01:26:40.720 - 01:26:53.060

choosing one or the other, but you have to have both. And I feel like our younger generation and part of what they're clamoring for what they're talking about, is a part of the, maybe

01:26:53.080 - 01:27:13.310

the, our previous focal point in evangelical church, pro-life and all that, or morality, you know, which is which is still important, you know, in terms of sexuality, understand about that. But but I think what what is moving the other way, is seeing that that there's an

01:27:13.310 - 01:27:28.490

aspect of grace, there's an aspect of social justice, justice, there's that aspect of loving the poor, that we need both. So again, that's how we were encouraging our families, you know, let's have conversation about this, that's

01:27:28.520 - 01:27:43.190

not jump the gun to shut the other side down about, you know, nothing. But we really need to learn to just listen and understand and I encourage our young people to ask their parents, or

01:27:43.370 - 01:28:03.020

grandparents about their experiences of maybe discrimination, of facing lawlessness, or seeing what happened maybe in, you know, like, my, my mom, remembers, when she was a child fleeing as part of

01:28:03.020 - 01:28:18.530

refugees, out of China. And when you have lived through, like that kind of world, when there's lawlessness and things, it's gonna profoundly shaped the way you think about what matters what is

01:28:18.760 - 01:28:34.510

important. So I feel like, we need to do deeper listening, when we're just just listening to the superficial rhetoric and getting mad about it. So really listening to you know where you've been, our interest really had to be more

01:28:34.530 - 01:28:50.890

than just what people believe, but also who they are. And I think read Gospel in this next phase, next generation, um, you know, I grew up doing the four spiritual laws and things like that, and I wouldn't you find that, you know, sometimes just

01:28:50.890 - 01:29:04.740

sharing those in holidays, people just like, what are you talking about, you know. And feel like people, nowadays, you have to we have to rethink about how can we-how can we incarnate the Gospel for

01:29:04.970 - 01:29:15.720

people, for people to see that, okay. Okay, you're listening to me. And now, you know, I'm opening to hear what you have to say. And I'm beginning to understand what I-and I

01:29:15.720 - 01:29:28.460

can respect even though you don't, I mean, I don't agree with you, but I can respect that you have your view, you know understand what does that mean. Even if that person's life or the belief may be very, very

01:29:28.890 - 01:29:37.700

opposite to what we believe is right, we may need to first just be able to have that basis first. And I think that's how Jesus did it too.

01:29:38.500 - 01:29:56.110

So he will befriend and talk to adulterous women and Samaritan women and-and tax collectors who we will probably outright condemn as, you know, hopeless, infidels. Yeah.

01:29:57.100 - 01:30:11.670

Yeah, that's interesting. And do you think there are any like opportunities for specifically Chinese Americans, or I guess, people from Chinese American churches to kind of engage in these political conversations

01:30:11.670 - 01:30:29.370

that maybe non-Chinese churches don't? Needs a lot of wisdom. Because, you know, something like, Chinese church in general, you know, and the culture-our culture is just think, you know, the first generations of

01:30:29.650 - 01:30:40.590

immigrants here, you know, they try to survive, they have survival mindset. So therefore, there's a strong mindset to, not to rock the boat, not to make too much

01:30:40.670 - 01:30:55.400

noise, don't draw, don't draw undue attention onto yourself, be careful. I think we're moving, gradually moving out of that shadow. You see, Asian American leaders not, you know, they're avoid like gaining voices in the

01:30:55.400 - 01:31:10.000

world. And that, so that's an exciting development. But I think for churches to have these discussions, say between generations, or between the different language conversations, it really needs a lot of wisdom.

01:31:10.720 - 01:31:21.490

Because so quickly you could step on the red line, or step on a landmine, and just blow everybody up. Because people so easily jump in it.

01:31:21.980 - 01:31:36.520

Especially if you look at there's so many complexities, now you've got the tension between US and China that's going on, you get the situation in Taiwan, and you get to think about, people talk about, you

01:31:36.520 - 01:31:52.980

know, COVID, you know, where's, you know, being, you know, blaming on China. There, there are so many complex threads of storyline that's at work. So I will say, treading carefully but intentionally,

01:31:54.780 - 01:32:09.230

wisely is important. So but but I do think that I do think it is possible. And I would love to see, you know, our churches, kind of growing in those in those area for people just

01:32:09.230 - 01:32:28.690

to learn, to, to share, to share our work where people are coming from why they think things a certain way, and to and to beginning to move, shifting out of that adversarial dialogue into one where we're

01:32:29.240 - 01:32:44.790

increasingly finding common ground, and finding that Jesus is in that place. You know, because I think you could just see Pharisee, if you want to imagine Jesus today, you could just see Republicans and Democrats

01:32:44.790 - 01:32:55.570

want to force him to take a side in that conversation, right? You can just see that they sort of trick him and sort of force him to say, to choose one side over the other.

01:32:56.350 - 01:33:11.580

And you can just see Jesus who was able to dodge, you know, you know, whether giving to Caesar is the right thing or not. You could just see Jesus very wisely treading in a way

01:33:11.620 - 01:33:24.730

and not letting any side to think they own him. Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's interesting. And I guess another thing that I've been curious about is

01:33:24.880 - 01:33:39.230

like for the youth of maybe specifically WHCC, or Chinese American churches, once they go off into college, and then go start working, have you seen them like come back to Chinese churches or do you see them mostly going to more

01:33:39.230 - 01:33:52.240

like non-Chinese churches? A few. Most of them do come back. I will say, Well, first of all, many do not come back to Houston.

01:33:52.240 - 01:34:07.480

Once once they see Austin, once they see some other place, they say oh, man, this is as good a place that's not as humid. So, um, so Yeah, and I think that's, I mean, that's, that's, I think that's just how it is. But I do think Houston offers

01:34:08.000 - 01:34:25.520

some unique things. And, um, and, and I think it's more important that we make sure that our students graduating will value their local church involvement, and that they will not

01:34:25.520 - 01:34:37.920

just participate, but they will help to be leaders wherever they go, and that they will be influenced for the gospel. But some do come back, which we're very grateful for.

01:34:37.990 - 01:34:57.530

But another interesting thing I find is that, um, you know, after doing ministry for a number of years, you know, we tend to see things in a very short timeline. But I think we need to see everything in large, longer

01:34:57.530 - 01:35:13.230

timeline and what God is doing. So I have this-I share the story sometime, I ran into a guy and this was in Boston someplace, I talked to this new guy. And he was new at that Chinese church I'm

01:35:13.750 - 01:35:24.510

just getting to know him a little bit. So he shared with me his background, and he was born in America. He grew up in this really awesome American church with a really famous pastor.

01:35:24.510 - 01:35:33.960

I was like, wow, that's so awesome. I say, you grew up listening to him preach. He said oh yeah, it was so great. And then I was like, what you doing here?

01:35:34.300 - 01:35:48.030

You know, but why-why are you here? Why are you here? And so this is a man in his, like, late 40s. Right. And he said, he said, you know, Pastor David,

01:35:48.740 - 01:36:03.670

I um, I've been, I'm very comfortable, very at home, in my old church environment. But as I got older, and I raise kids, I said, there's something is I felt that there is still

01:36:03.670 - 01:36:15.120

something missing. And he said that you can say that I'm here, partly because of that. I'm still I'm looking for something connected to my roots.

01:36:16.190 - 01:36:29.090

And, and, and I've seen some needs here, I'm seeing something. And he, he didn't have an answer. But he just told me that. He said, I'm searching for something here. And, and I think, I

01:36:29.090 - 01:36:46.860

think, you know, two of the most challenging things going to the future, I think, for us in theology is is in our sexuality and ethnicity. Most of our studies are anthropology, because we're at the church has debate about

01:36:46.860 - 01:37:01.210

what God is like, or church is like, or salvation is like, all these things. But the one area of the church hasn't done a lot of work historically, is particularly in the area of thinking about what human sexuality really means and genders.

01:37:01.590 - 01:37:16.450

And as well as this issue of ethnicity to think more deeply, instead of just thinking about nations as your rivals and the rivalry between nations, and or, you know, as Chinese people, I mean, we have a pretty high level of

01:37:16.450 - 01:37:29.280

cultural snobbishness, you can call it pride, you know, we think, that's just pretty awesome. Not to mention, we think our food is pretty awesome. So so, um, so I so I think, I think ethnicity

01:37:30.470 - 01:37:47.040

roots, there is much more to it, than I think we still we have, we have not really understood it yet. And therefore, I feel that I don't think just playing a

01:37:47.310 - 01:38:01.780

multicultural or multiethnic Church has answered the whole question yet. Because a lot of times in the way we do these multiethnic congregation is really whitewashing

01:38:02.970 - 01:38:15.140

everything into American culture. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But I really think at the end of the day, it kind of have to be something that's actually broader than that, that's more diverse than that.

01:38:15.140 - 01:38:31.720

Where there's actually a celebration of the multiple culture for the Kingdom of God. So so, so, so, so I think, um, I think there's a lot, there's a lot we need to learn, I think I think that's going to be a

01:38:31.800 - 01:38:49.600

big part about reaching the next generation to these-our next generation like yourself, like you all grew up more open minded, and more, with more ability to engage in diverse culture and thinking than any generations before.

01:38:49.780 - 01:39:01.910

Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Interesting. Um, I guess what are kind of your future outlooks for Chinese American churches in Houston, specifically, how do you think they'll change?

01:39:03.170 - 01:39:19.190

Um, I'm very hopeful. Um, I like to think of, I like to think some very exciting things will be coming up. The reason is, even though I think it will be hard. I think things will be hard for the church.

01:39:20.170 - 01:39:31.540

I don't think it will get easier regardless of the outcome of elections or politics, it's just hard right now. But I'm hopeful because the

01:39:31.730 - 01:39:46.120

people I know, when I see some of the younger pastors in our church, in our church, when I see people like Jason at your church, when I see some of these guys, I love them so much and respect them so much. When I see some

01:39:46.120 - 01:40:01.800

of the young leaders or even like yourself Helen, I feel extremely hopeful because I feel like our next generation leaders how God's going to use to lead us through a lot of these nebulous times. Even though we may not have the

01:40:01.940 - 01:40:21.550

answer today. And I think that the easy answer, the quick three-point answer that solves everything in your life and probably in the world, I think that has kind of that's dissipating was the previous era is this is more a more

01:40:21.550 - 01:40:36.420

complex and requires a more holistic kind of thinking and listening. But I feel hopeful for our churches moving forward, because I think I see the people and I believe in the people, but I think it will be challenging. And it would not

01:40:36.420 - 01:40:54.300

surprise me also that that the um, you know, that it's very hard a hard season for churches in general, even coming on a pandemic, may be in store for us, even as

01:40:54.450 - 01:41:12.510

we struggle to, to figure out in person and online, and all these complexities, and even as we struggle with how busy we are, you know, we're all just, like, overly busy. Yeah, but I think, I think God is at work in our churches.

01:41:12.920 - 01:41:27.890

And therefore, I believe that good things to come. Yeah, that's great. And do you have any, like, advice for the leadership of Chinese American churches, in terms of, you know, living through this era?

01:41:29.360 - 01:41:44.850

I don't have advice, I just think, I just think, um, you know, we, I I-the the two thing I myself try to stay with is, I feel like, stay hungry, stay humble.

01:41:46.180 - 01:42:03.690

Stay hungry and keep learning, because I don't know everything. And there's lots of things to learn in this new world we're in. And stay humble and realizing that if God can teach prophet with a donkey, and speak to a prophet

01:42:03.690 - 01:42:16.070

with donkey, I think we can learn a lot from our neighbors and from each other. Being hungry and humble, I have found that has helped, has helped navigating through a lot of

01:42:16.070 - 01:42:32.690

kind of tricky, tricky times. So I just feel like if we stay hungry, humble before God, and with each other, I think there's sufficient grace. And I and I look forward to see in general, you know, we had sent out some people into

01:42:32.890 - 01:42:45.660

global fields and things. I'm just so proud of them and see like the kind of work they're doing. I know they're young people who have great aspiration. I know people want to see-the joining of their career with

01:42:46.100 - 01:42:59.060

faith, how to live out their faith and career in a special way. Yeah, I think it's going to be it's going to be awesome to see how God is gonna unfold that storyline. Yeah, that's great. Well, that's all the questions I have.

01:42:59.270 - 01:43:06.210

Is there anything else that you would like to add that maybe we didn't touch on? It was very comprehensive- That's that's a lot. That's a lot.

01:43:06.610 - 01:43:17.590

You were asking a ton of question, when you sent me the list a question I was looking at, I was like oh, man, we could be here all day. Yeah but thank you so much again. Everything was so inspirational.