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Okay, so I'll start off. Today is Tuesday, October 12, 2021. My name is Kelsey Sham, and I'm interviewing Mr. Oscar Wong on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive.

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Mr. Wong, thank you so much for joining me today. We'll start off at the beginning of your life. Where are you born? And what was your childhood like?

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What memories do you have of your hometown? Oh, I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. The West Indies in 1940, prior to the onset of World War Two.

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My family had a grocery store: a small 10 by 20 square foot about, and raised five children. I'm the second of five.

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And we initially slept upstairs, one big bedroom, all of us until we bought the house next door on one side, and then the house next door on the other side over time.

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And so we kept going and went to high school from - I see grade school around the corner - and then another grade school, high school, before I went off to college.

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I had an idyllic childhood, you might say. Great, great. How does your family end up in Jamaica when you have Chinese ancestry? And do you know

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where, or which province in China that your family is from? Yes. Both are from China, in the southern part near Guangdong. We’re not Cantonese, we are Hakka.

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Have you heard of the term? I have, yes. Okay. Well, I'm Hakka. And I guess, starting in the 1850s, the immigration-

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emigration began. And those Chinese went through Hong Kong, which is British. So the Hakka eventually ended up in five distinct locations. And those are Singapore, Uganda, West

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Indies, Vancouver, and England. And my branch started, I don't know when really, but by that time, some people, cousins so forth, were in Jamaica, that's where we ended up.

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So I was born. And I grew up there, but they both came from China. I see. Very cool, awesome. Are you and your family in contact with other Hakka people from your

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hometown still? Um, a very - very few there are. I've come across one who was a classmate in college - in high school. We reconnected on a surprise connection in Scotland, on one of

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our trips, he and another friend were there, and I was from here. So it turns out, they came from a similar village. I think it's called Tong Lak Hee. Um, and, but there

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are no other real connections, practically my both grandmothers were brought over while I was in high school. And while I was in college, in junior year, my family moved from Jamaica and went to London, because of the

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political situation in Jamaica, - because they were concerned and so was the rest of the middle class: Black, white, Asian, all that. Can you talk a little bit more about that political situation and how it maybe has

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affected you or your family during that time? It was at the time British, and they were becoming independent in 1990- no, 1962.

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That independence, caused some concern because the government at the time, were getting very comfortable and friendly with Castro, and the local

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middle class felt they were not comfortable with those socialist types of businesses Sorry, could you repeat that? Well, my wife is just doing some folding and it's getting into my - just - we're alright - okay.

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That's totally fine, don't worry. But what I need to be able to hear - what I myself - talking. Sure. She just is very organized. ... organizing me all the time.

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I love that. So going on, is there a Hakka community in Asheville or Chinese community in Asheville that you have found community with? No, as a matter of fact, I arrived here in 1959 in the US,

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and I would think that I have come across, possibly, oh, 12 to 15 Hakka people. Each time has been a huge surprise and all that, but I have not come across many

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Hakka. And I've been here since 1959. That's 60 plus years. So there's no community - there's a - there are a lot of Asians I've come across, but normally they speak Cantonese or Mandarin or,

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and they're just different. So we're this - hm, I don't know - kind of, we're dispersed? Very few. Yeah, I see.

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How does Hakka culture differ from Jamaican and American culture? Did you attend any Hakka events, or have a Hakka community as you grew up? Maybe not now, but during your childhood?

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Absolutely. In the grade school and high school days, we had a very active group. They're all Hakka, of course, because of the fact that they're there in Jamaica. We had, the building

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society would grubstake my father, there was a group that had a beach, Zhong san, Chong San which was just for Chinese. We invited guests, but it's

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effectively a private club. It wasn't fancy by any stretch. It's just a little fenced in swimming area. We had festivals, garden parties and stuff.

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They're all-all Hakka related. And I had a, it was a kind of an idyllic childhood, really, your weddings would run two or three days, you know, we'd say, "Why are we going back there?" I said,

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"Well, the wedding's continuing." They said, "Oh, oh my gosh, okay." But as kids, you just run around, enjoy it anyway. As far as the specific - it just gives us who was there?

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We didn't think of us. We knew we were called Hakka. We're also "kurja", which means guest people. But we came from the north. We say we were the civil

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servants class and a separate nation. And when the Genghis Khan and these, his grandsons came through, we were decimated and the balance ended up in South China.

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And we were accepted, but not assimilated. I see. Very cool. Yeah, that's, that's such an interesting part of history. Um, so for growing up as a Hakka

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person in Jamaica, did you experience any - any, like, did you feel like you had to choose between Hakka culture and Jamaican culture? It was, was somewhat of a blend, we did.

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The Asian group, the Hakka group, was heavily Catholic, and within the Catholic Church, there was Black Jamaican, white Jamaican all mixed in.

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And I think it was, was rather, what should I say, we were somewhat segregated to a degree, socially. But I would say, not a lot.

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There's a lot of co-mingling in high school, high school parties. There was- there was a lot of mixture there. More among my generation as opposed to my parents’ generation, they were a little bit

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more isolated. To my mind - because they didn't speak a lot of English. That was part of the problem.

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Whereas my generation we were born and raised there we spoke. As far as the culture is concerned, there was always a harkening back to Chinese culture.

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And in fact, my father planned to send us back to China. But when the Communists took over, he thought, okay, that's - that ends that idea and shifted his focus to the Western world.

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And his dream was to have us go to college, which two of us did, and the rest went over to England because they were younger. I see, I see. How important is it for Hakka Chinese to stay united, like in communities and across the globe?

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And in what ways have they been able to help out each other throughout the years? Do you have any experience with that? I think in Jamaica, it was very well shown by the fact that succeeding generations who would emigrate

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over to Jamaica would get grubstake to start a business. That's just what they did. Because they weren't, they wouldn't qualify for a standard bank loan.

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So Hakka community would actually welcome and get them started. And it was very successful because my-my guess is that with 0.7% of the population of Jamaica, I

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would- I would guess that we probably controlled a good quarter of the economy through - there, a lot of it was due to foodstuffs, wholesale retail,

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dry cleaning services, manufacturing, and, in fact, the extending the food services, I remember one of the guys came back from coming to the US and brought sliced bread.

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I mean, we didn't have sliced bread before he showed up. And he was Chinese, and it became the-the rage element on it so... Yeah. So you already spoke a little bit to this and about the co-mingling

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especially like in the Catholic Church. But as a Chinese person growing up in Jamaica, how did you feel you were generally perceived by the public? Did you feel like an outsider at all, did you feel like there was any racial

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tension towards Asians? Oh, there were some, occasionally, mostly from the less educated... would be more, it maybe was a matter of

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jealousy. Because one of these hallmarks, I believe, and it's being shown in the US right now, is a willingness to work and study. We have an amazing capacity to work and to be patient.

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And it's sometimes it's kind of backfired because take California, which is horrendous, too many Asians in college, and they're trying to shift it. And I think, rather than push that way,

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it should be put up as an example of, "you can do it if you apply yourself". We're not - I don't believe that we're, what should I say, genetically smarter. You know, I just don't believe that at all.

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We just have a culture of hard work and patience and determination, just sticking with it. When I consider my parents raising five kids in a 10 by 20, retail grocery store,

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it's just unbelievable work. It's six in the morning to ten at night, six and a half days. They bet eventually, my mother talked to my dad and said, or

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maybe what my dad, he said, "Let's cut that Sunday because people are just going to take advantage of it. They just got to know that we're shut down." So six days a week, six to ten.

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I remember when we were allowed a few hours Sunday morning, and my dad put a stop to that, though. But that's pretty rough. Yeah. Did you have to work in the grocery store frequently or were you given

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more like administrative duties like or did you focus on school? Well, I have to give my dad a lot of credit for allowing me to actually help out.

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Now I actually helped out and was expected to help out especially on Saturday when I'm not in school. School had precedence. But on

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Saturdays I would work in the shop all day because you would need it. Sometimes, on off days, I would get up in the morning. And open the shop at six o'clock with my dad.

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Now that was not, what should I say, that was something that - I'm a morning person. And then I, after my sisters got old enough to help out in the shop, I got to run around on Saturdays, and come back and close the shop at night.

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And I got all the credit for that. And my sisters to this day fusses about the fact that, "you're the hero. And we did all the damn work all day." Yeah, no, I - I actually my, my grandfather and

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his siblings also owned grocery stores in Houston. And my dad also worked as well. School of course was the most important thing, but that's so interesting to see these connections between Houston and Kingston.

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What kind of goods did your grocery store sell? It's all food related. There was a little bit of cosmetics, cough syrups and stuff, you know, kind of a mini

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drug, bandaids. But that was a small part, it's all food related. Canned food, salted cod fish, salted mackerel, cooking oils, you know, all food related.

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I see, I see. So, skipping forward a bit, in 1959 I see you move to South Bend, Indiana. Why South Bend, and was there a big cultural difference there than there was in Jamaica?

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It was a huge change. I was fortunate that my roommate, also from Jamaica, Richard Chin, we came up together. And we ended up in South Bend because of Notre Dame. That's where we attended. However, his sister

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lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a few hours right north of South Bend. She welcomed us and suggested we come in a couple weeks early.

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And she and her husband who is, as I use the term, pale face, like my wife is, to acclimate. And that was very useful, actually. But I would say once I got to Notre Dame, it was

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- it was like normal, and they were very accepting. I have to admit that I got a lot of, what should I say, welcoming at all levels - by families, by the students, like and I just felt like I was one of

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the one of the students. We were all male, by the way back then. No women. I see, I see.

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So you didn't feel like there was much racial tension then, in South Bend and Notre Dame? Well, no, I think one of the observations I've had is that if there are only a few outsiders who are different

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- it's not a problem. I remember going to South Dakota, and I was a little concerned going with my roommate from South Dakota. And I saw these Indians being thrown out of

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bars. And I turned to my buddy Mike and said, "Oh, gee, I look a lot like these guys, is that my - am I in trouble?" He said, "no, no, no, no, they - you're different. They know you're from Notre Dame, you're - you're visiting and you're fine." And there

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were a couple of Black families there, and they were totally accepted. But there are a fair amount of Indians. So that was a problem. It's interesting that if you have a

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few, just a few of outsiders, it's okay. People accept you. Maybe you're different. But there's no discrimination. Discrimination happens when there's a little bit of pressure because now you're at 5,

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10, 15 percent of the group. And you're expected to be - it - it becomes a kind of a threat, in a way. Yeah, by - when you say Indians, do you mean Asian Indians or like Native Americans?

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No, no, no. Indigenous Indians. Okay. . Interesting. Okay. So I see you started your first career in engineering, right?

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Was that a career that you were sure that you wanted? Was that something you were passionate about? Or did you have any other interests that you were maybe interested in pursuing? I think at that time, I just thought of myself as an engineer.

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I think it started way back in almost grade school, I had an ease with math and so forth. And I was always geared toward doing some technical work. So

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engineering was part of what I thought I'd really wanted to do. And I found it fascinating, rewarding, exciting, all the rest of it. And I guess, as you grow older, you find that there are other things that can work.

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And I think, when I started my own business is - and I became, well, before that, became a supervisor and manager, and then started my own business.

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And the clarity of doing just straight technical work in a suit was, I would never, there are so many people smarter than me that can't compete straight up. And I found that I was better off at coordinating and

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collaborating with people. And, and leading by example, or, you know, without going to details, I could actually understand enough that could motivate them to do work.

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So, pretty early on I, I found I had, I have a Master's in engineering, and I had, you know, PhDs reporting to me, and I could see where, yes, absolutely, they're smarter

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than me. But you know, what? They don't see the bigger picture. And I think that I was fortunate to pick that up. Yeah. Was it difficult to start your own business at all?

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Do you feel like there was - there were any hurdles you had to overcome? Um, not really, I think I had been in the nuclear field for much of my professional life, in engineering.

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And the time came that I had enough of a relationship with the clients that I reported to, for the company I worked for, I thought, "You know what, I think I can do it my way, and feel more comfortable in directing." And I would -

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there was never any sense of prejudice or issues of that sort. A lot of times, because of where I was. Now, I will say that the potential for problems or potential

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for prejudice in issues would hide most possible. And I didn't really sense it. But in San Francisco, where there's so many Chinese, everywhere

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else I've been, there's been hardly anything. Yeah. On the topic of nuclear waste, in your opinion, what can individuals do?

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What can the world do to slow down climate change or save the environment? I know, that's a loaded question. Well, I firmly believe that nuclear waste

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- the problem was in the nuclear industry and then modified and moved over to the waste end of it. Because my specialty was working with new plants. But I believe nuclear has a

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big role to play in backing off on climate change, without a doubt, because actually, we, we all live in a radioactive world.

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We're being bombarded by them as we speak. And this earth is habitable, because there's a magma with low grade fission going on, and it's molten. And it's hot, and the heat from the

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sun. So between the two, this world is habitable. And I think spewing out - well, all of the issues, all of the themes can be applied,

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whether it's wind, solar, nuclear, fossil, you shouldn't take anything off the plate. There should be balance in it, shifted and modified and maybe

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maybe pushed in one direction a little bit, from time to time to adjust. But to go wholesale and cut one or the other out. Makes no sense to me. Thank you so much for your insight.

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So now we'll move on into the present, how does your current life and North Carolina compare to childhood in Jamaica culturally and socially? Well, in Jamaica, I was - we were relatively poor.

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I mean, we are, we're not I would say poor, poor, but we were considered somewhat lower middle class, relatively. But in terms of physical well being, I mean, we didn't have hot running water, it was cold showers,

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and so forth. So I would say my life there and here are lightyears different in personal comfort. And as far as culturally, I have, I have actually found less of a cultural

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bias in the US than I did in Jamaica. I remember on several occasions, I would go with some friends and try to go into certain places. And, you know, I looked around, and I'm the only Asian in there.

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And you remember, it's obvious I would remember, you know, so I thought, "Okay, that happened down there." But I have not run into that in the US. The closest I came was in Chicago, in my freshman year to find a

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job. I needed to find a place to live. And I walked into a couple places where they had a room to rent. And as soon as I walked as it was, "No, we don't

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have a room." It was - it was clear that they weren't comfortable. And that's fine. But that only happened in one or two places. And then after that, other than that, I've been here since 59, 60 something years.

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Hardly any. Yeah, that's great. So, comparisons between your family then and your family now... were you close with your family back then, your siblings, your parents?

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And what are your relationships like with your family right now in the present? Okay, I have a sister in Connecticut. And we're in touch maybe a couple times a year. We don't - we're not -

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we might, I mean, visit once in a while, we might visit them, but it's - it's not a regular close. My youngest sister is in London, and she has three kids who have been

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- one of them, middle daughter is in Washington State. And two boys are back in England after making tours around working in Hong Kong, whatever. We celebrated my

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youngest sister's birthday, two years ago, in - on a cruise, which we've never done. And we won't be doing another one. It's just, it's okay.

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Our family, we don't communicate, like, like every month or - like a couple times a year, we just, what, I feel we're close in the sense that we're a tight knit family. If anything were to come up, we would

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definitely be there. Yeah, were you close with your parents? I think so. My - I know, my dad was quite proud of me because

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among the extended family, I was the first, and not the oldest, because many were older, to go to college. He felt like you know, his cousins were rather much more well off. They had wholesale and bigger businesses.

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And he was a grocery store owner who got helped. I would say, I don't know your, it's hard to say what, how much. We're - I was close to my dad and my,

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my mother, in the last few years of her life, lived a couple miles from us. We brought her back from, well, my father passed away and then she went to Amsterdam, remarried, and then eventually - and he passed away.

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So we brought her over here, and my wife could see that she would be much happier even though she had a daughter in England with kids. She'd be much happier here.

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And she was. I think I spent the last year or so -she had pancreatic cancer, so she knew. We talked and got a lot of input about family life. That's - that's so nice that you were able to

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have that time with her. So you mentioned that you had - you had cousins, right, and aunts and uncles that also were in the grocery store business. Were they also in Kingston?

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Yes. And well, they were not in the grocery store, but they were in a wholesale business. They were bigger, and much more well off, they had cars. And they had big homes.

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And we didn't. But they had preceded my father by quite a bit. And yeah, we were, we were clearly related. Sometimes second removed, sometimes actual

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first cousins. But our family kind of started the trajectory away from - toward college, as opposed to business. Mhm. Were you close with your cousins at all, or your aunts and uncles?

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We saw them a fair amount when I was younger, and we tended to drift apart as soon as we got into high school, because I think they were- they started to lag behind a little bit scholastically. And, you know, and I kind

00:31:22.120 - 00:31:35.520

of ended up with another separate group, you know how people kind of find their own level. Yeah, yeah, I get that. So moving on into the present then, what is your family like today?

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Are you guys close? Do you guys go on trips together? I know your wife is with you right now. So oh, we do.

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As a matter of fact, we're here, in this location for two weeks. We come down to this area for the last - for many times now. We spend about a couple of weeks, sometimes we go north up to Maine in the

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summertime. So in fact, our elder daughter, we have two daughters. One is running the company, Highland Brewing, and the younger one, a year and a half younger is developmentally disabled.

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And she lives with a couple across from the brewery, it turns out. So it's, it's very close, very convenient. Our daughter is coming in, her

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husband is not able to come because he's been, he's too busy, he works in the company too, and he just can't break away. But she's coming on Wednesday. And she's leaving on Sunday.

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And the caregivers wanted to make sure that both the two sisters could overlap, so they're coming on Friday. And they'll stay with us all the way through the following Saturday when we leave, so, and I see my

00:32:51.270 - 00:33:04.390

elder daughter every day, almost, when she's around, and the youngest one we see every week, at least. So we, we're close. And we're fortunate because we have to have a

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business that, I was able to talk our daughter into joining, and then now she's running it. Yeah, yeah congrats on that. So in your opinion, I know this is a big question - and you can take a little

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time to think about it if you would like- but what keeps a family together? And what keeps you guys running when things get hard? Oh, let's see. I believe, my, my

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wife has been always very insightful when it comes to people, and a caring person, and kind of a relatively strict. I mean, I remember she was a disciplinarian

00:33:53.450 - 00:34:10.280

when the girls were growing up. I was the Patsy, you know, they, if they could sneak by me that, you know, they'd come check with dad. And "oh, yeah, sure." But she'd be a little more disciplined. And I think between the two of us, it kind of worked out

00:34:10.940 - 00:34:27.930

as a good balance. And our elder daughter has lunch with my wife every week, that she no matter how busy she gets, she can look towards her two girls, they just get together to catch up with stuff and sometimes I'm included.

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Sometimes, no, I'm rarely included for those things, but we do socialize regularly. And I think it's a - we're close and tight because I think we're respectful of

00:34:49.360 - 00:35:05.380

each other. Giving an example just a couple days ago, we're down here on vacation. I get a call and I missed the call, and I call back, and my wife could see, our daughter is reluctant to bother me.

00:35:05.540 - 00:35:19.410

So I call. So I need to write back. And I'm reluctant to bother her unless we need to. But I wrote back and I just, I said, because "I want, I want to make it very clear," I said,

00:35:19.520 - 00:35:37.030

"that I'm on vacation, but you're making some life level decisions related to yourself and the company. And I'm always available to talk. Don't-don't be reluctant." You know, I just had to state it black and white.

00:35:38.320 - 00:35:55.770

And I think my wife is also very concerned and considerate about what my requirements are. And in turn, myself, you know, I, like I said this morning, my biggest concern today now is,

00:35:58.970 - 00:36:13.750

where and what are we going to have for dinner? And what kind of great cocktail can I come up with? So, and she's been very considerate of all of us, like, I think that's - that's the

00:36:15.190 - 00:36:26.820

glue, I think. And we respect each other's boundaries, because we're all pretty different. I mean, I'm all ready for

00:36:26.820 - 00:36:38.310

party at the drop of a hat. My wife's more introverted and she reflects on things a lot. And every time I write

00:36:39.200 - 00:36:53.350

something that I need to go give a talk, and I just like to run it by her, and just take a quick look. And half the time, she'll come at it, "You can't say this!" "Well, why

00:36:53.350 - 00:37:12.180

not?" So I think - I think that's sums up as far as your question about, are we tight. Another little quick anecdote. My-our elder daughter wanted to join the company

00:37:12.560 - 00:37:28.730

when I started up a couple of years, she's like, "oo! Dad makes beer. I'm out of college a few years, I can sell beer," I said, "No, no, no, no, that's, you know, that's, I think about it, do something different." And then she said,

00:37:30.040 - 00:37:47.110

"Well, okay." And she was very gracious about it. She gets into the high school yearbook business and has done phenomenally well. Oh, well, let me just tell you, she's been with the company 10 years.

00:37:49.180 - 00:38:04.110

She's now the CEO. She's making half of what she was making 10 years ago. Wow, congrats to her. Amazing. So, and I give her

00:38:04.110 - 00:38:22.240

husband a lot of credit for saying to her, "So, you're not interested in taking over the family business? Are you crazy?" I said that to her one day, and she just laughed and said, "I can't believe it. That's what my husband is saying." But so, it's more of

00:38:22.760 - 00:38:39.380

a, what should I say, it's a lifestyle change. She did turn me down for quite a while before she accepted her husband talking her into it. So, and now she's doing great. I mean, we consult constantly, I go in every day.

00:38:39.740 - 00:38:52.980

But I'm not in the line of activity. I check on the economic and regulatory side of business, just in the background. But she's in charge and checks in with me.

00:38:53.880 - 00:39:08.850

And just to get my thoughts on things, but she's definitely in charge. And we're rather proud of that. Yeah, I bet. That's so great. So going into the world of beer, why did you shift careers

00:39:08.960 - 00:39:22.510

into the world of beer and what was interesting about it to you? Well, I've always enjoyed beer, all the way from, I’d actually say the Chinese—You know, my first beer

00:39:22.660 - 00:39:37.630

was, I got it at 11 years old. My dad gave us a couple ounces, because he would cook on Sundays. And they would be you know, fried prawn, roast duck, and roast pork, and all those things are considered hot.

00:39:39.110 - 00:39:55.090

And you need to cool it off with rice, soups, vegetables, and maybe a couple ounces of hard cider or beer. And I always, I had a taste for it even then, and I'm the only one in the whole family that drinks alcohol.

00:39:57.530 - 00:40:10.410

Even in my extended family, my youngest sister's youngest boy, is the only other person in the whole extended family that also tolerates and enjoys beer and alcohol.

00:40:12.380 - 00:40:29.590

By the way, he happens to be the same birthday as mine. October 21st. So like we're both signs of the Dragon, 48 years difference. Wow, wow, it was meant to be, I think.

00:40:30.860 - 00:40:43.630

Wait a minute, I may be wrong on that, maybe it's 36. I don't know, whatever. Okay. So-So, I always enjoyed beer, and my engineering business in nuclear waste was

00:40:43.630 - 00:40:59.630

sold. And in ‘87, and in 1990, they moved the operation from Charlotte, where we lived, over to California, and didn't have any room for a 50 year old washed

00:41:00.060 - 00:41:17.380

up engineer. So I came home, and my wife suggested “You know, you don't have to work for quite a while. Why don't you take a break and enjoy it, because at 50 years old, you're healthy.

00:41:18.800 - 00:41:35.210

You know, your energy and so forth, why don't you just just take some time off?” So it was - so two years into it, I was called to do some consulting, in my specialty, nuclear waste in Washington, D.

00:41:35.210 - 00:41:50.660

C., which I did on a part time basis. And then in the fourth year, I was introduced to an award winning brewer who wanted to start a brewery, and a mutual friend realized that this

00:41:50.660 - 00:42:05.770

guy had an award, but he really couldn't afford to start it. He didn't have the money. He didn't have the business experience, nor the marketing understanding. So I got roped into it.

00:42:05.770 - 00:42:22.960

And actually, my wife was not unhappy to see that happen. So that's how we got started. And I had no idea that would be something I would do this - this 27

00:42:22.990 - 00:42:38.070

years later, but I really don't do that much. Yeah. So how did your friends and family react when you decided to open Highland Brewing and, and step away from engineering?

00:42:40.530 - 00:42:55.960

It was, well, I had quit engineering effectively, for four years. So I think, they didn't really expect that it would go back into engineering proper.

00:42:57.100 - 00:43:10.730

So it wasn't a big change. My extended family seemed to be pleased about it. And I don't know, my wife thought it was a good idea to just try something new.

00:43:12.920 - 00:43:33.270

Yeah, here we are. Yeah, here we are. Was there any discrimination as a Chinese brewery owner? Well, actually, I think it went the other way. In Asheville, there - there are just a handful of Asians,

00:43:33.870 - 00:43:51.250

and they all have restaurants, whether they be Thai, Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, it's all food related. And this is a little different. But I have not run into any kind of

00:43:52.860 - 00:44:06.990

prejudice that I'm aware of. Maybe I'm blind to it, but I don't think so. That's great. So I see Highland was the first legal brewery in Asheville, North Carolina since

00:44:06.990 - 00:44:22.800

Prohibition. What was the process like to achieve that status? How did that happen? Well, when we started, it was - was difficult because nobody in the area had ever done this before.

00:44:23.500 - 00:44:42.270

And all the regulatory folks have no idea about, they'd ask questions like, "You mean, you're going to actually boil things and have a big gas fire thing?" It could blow the place up. Or you're going to, make steaming, it's going to stink up

00:44:42.270 - 00:44:56.080

the place. It has all kinds of things that they had no idea what it was like. So we had to go through that hoop, those hoops. We got the federal license, then we got a state license, then we got the local city license.

00:44:57.890 - 00:45:10.640

It was, uh, being the pioneer, it was tough. And we stuck with it. Got it going. And we're still, as my daughter says

00:45:10.720 - 00:45:25.090

over and over, "You know, they just cannot take it away from us, we're number one." You are. So I also see that Highland has grown into the largest North Carolina based brewery, congrats. What was the journey like getting to this point?

00:45:25.650 - 00:45:41.830

What makes Highland truly special to you? That's not what we set out to do. We, I thought we'd have two or three breweries in Asheville, eventually. And now there's close to 40 brewing

00:45:42.530 - 00:45:59.020

operations in a town of under 90,000 people. That's amazing. So I think we-we were very careful about quality, and consistency.

00:46:00.620 - 00:46:15.650

We dumped thousands of gallons of beer in the beginning. And every now and then we will dump if it does, if something goes awry, and we're not, we're not totally happy with it, it goes on to, so we find that that's

00:46:15.910 - 00:46:37.510

helped us a lot to have a reputation for consistency and quality. And over time, we - that reputation’s stood us in good stead, and we also take very good care of our staff. Yeah, what in your opinion makes a really good beer?

00:46:39.710 - 00:46:57.810

I believe that, like anything else that you ingest, it shouldn't, it shouldn't have a one aspect that stands out and knocks you between the eyes.

00:46:57.890 - 00:47:12.520

In other words, let's say you want to make something that has some bitterness. The bitterness should not be to such a degree that nothing else comes out. Let's say you want to make it malty - it can't be so sweet that all you pick up is sweetness.

00:47:13.950 - 00:47:29.160

The idea of an excellent beer, as with anything else that you eat, it should have balance. If you're going to make it much hoppier, you should balance it with a little bit more

00:47:29.330 - 00:47:46.560

malt. And just maybe it's just, the things need to work together. Otherwise, it becomes unidimensional, and people don't sometimes, you know, the macho guys you know, they'll like to hit something

00:47:46.560 - 00:48:00.620

that everybody else would never eat . And they're showing off, you know, but that - that says that work in the long run. So that's what I think

00:48:00.980 - 00:48:19.800

makes for great beer or great food. Great anything is the idea of, there should be complexity, balance, drinkability, flavor, aroma and just things that work together.

00:48:21.080 - 00:48:32.110

Yeah, I completely agree. So as a beer aficionado, obviously with a really refined palate, do you also cook a lot and do you enjoy cooking?

00:48:32.410 - 00:48:48.180

Did your family, you know you mentioned your dad cooked on Sundays especially growing up, what kind of food did you eat back then? And if you cook now, what kind of food do you enjoy cooking? Okay, my dad used to cook a variety of things that would go from

00:48:48.260 - 00:49:06.740

stuffed oysters, fried Prawn, roast duck - roast duck was kind of my childhood favorite; we raised them and he'd roast them - roast pork, stuffed vegetables, and just a myriad of foods, all Chinese,

00:49:08.240 - 00:49:21.630

and he loved to cook. He enjoyed it. And I've carried on the tradition. And I cook brunch on Sundays that our kids will show up or we have friends sometimes.

00:49:22.690 - 00:49:38.410

I, that's what we enjoy. Now, today, we - my wife's over the years has got really good at, and for some time would cook.

00:49:39.750 - 00:49:53.270

I didn't know what I'd end up with. I could come home at night. A long day at the office in New York. Let's say when we lived up there. It could be French, Chinese, Indian,

00:49:53.830 - 00:50:03.830

Greek, Spanish. It just, you know what, she just didn't know what would like cooking that day and, and she had a touch. And to this day, I love to cook.

00:50:04.630 - 00:50:15.910

And I still cook brunch and on occasional, for instance, we're down the Coast. So we had some fish yesterday. You know, just lightly sauteed,

00:50:16.640 - 00:50:31.300

fresh. And I think that we had, we actually had dinner when we showed up. We also had fish, you know, we're going to cook more of an eclectic American type.

00:50:32.940 - 00:50:49.120

We don't - occasionally we'll have sauteéd Chinese style cooking. And my wife does that well. And I enjoy cooking, yes. I'm too hastened to say that - I can't claim that I

00:50:49.970 - 00:51:07.770

have the finest palate in the world because it's jaded, you know, I'll be 81 next week. So, I think everything tastes great to me. And I don't want to be so good that - my - when my

00:51:08.190 - 00:51:22.840

friends and staff members, when we go somewhere, we sip a beer, and then, "Ooh, did you pick up on whatever?" "Uh, no, tastes okay to me." Yeah, I've been there for sure.

00:51:23.510 - 00:51:36.400

So Highland is more than just a brewing company, right? You're quite involved in your community, often hosting events year round, that I read about, can you talk a little bit about those events and what you love the most about them?

00:51:38.480 - 00:51:54.710

From the very beginning, I've always felt very strongly about being part of the community. And we were able to do more and more of that at this new location. So we have volleyball courts, we have

00:51:56.360 - 00:52:08.620

disc golf, we have trails, we did - this building of about four acres, 180,000 square feet, sits on 40 acres of land. And we were

00:52:08.670 - 00:52:20.900

fortunate to be able to purchase it in two pieces and have it all. So we can treat it as one now. The community part is what came first.

00:52:21.240 - 00:52:38.130

Because before we were able to do any of that downtown, we helped nonprofits as much as we could. And if we, when we didn't have the cash, you said okay, we'll give you beer. And hopefully the beer will

00:52:38.790 - 00:52:52.150

release the cash from your supporters. And that was the idea. And so it's very important to us to be a very strong member of the community.

00:52:52.910 - 00:53:06.700

The community's been helpful to us over the years helped us to grow to what we are. So that's, I don't know if that answers your question, but... Yeah, yeah, that's a fantastic answer.

00:53:06.700 - 00:53:21.690

That's great. I always love seeing businesses help out nonprofits and see the effects that they have on the community, and they really can rally people together around the cause. You know, having worked for a couple of nonprofits myself, so.

00:53:22.910 - 00:53:34.230

Alright, so last year, you received the National Recognition Award by the Breweries Association. Congratulations! What advice would you give to young entrepreneurs, who

00:53:34.230 - 00:53:50.990

wants to start their own company but are maybe afraid of negative feedback from their family or friends? I think if you have a passion for something, and you've done enough homework - you don't want to do too

00:53:50.990 - 00:54:08.110

much homework because if you study something too much, you won't do it - there are too many liabilities, okay? I think just, despite what friends or family might say, if you feel strongly enough about something, you've done

00:54:08.110 - 00:54:24.300

your homework. It's worth giving it a try. Sure. And then one big aspect, today more than ever, is not just looking at the bottom line. If that's all you look at, you lose out on

00:54:25.120 - 00:54:45.750

staff, vendors, customers, you name it, you cannot just focus on the bottom line. It has to be organic and tied in with everybody. You, your family, your staff, your

00:54:46.260 - 00:55:05.310

community, your customers, and make them, connect with them. Because there's an old saying: "People don't buy the corporation, they buy the people," and in the local push over the last decade, it proved that people are starting

00:55:05.310 - 00:55:14.730

to recognize it. A little bit. Yeah. I can, I can get the stuff cheaper from so and so. But there's no service, there's no connectivity locally.

00:55:15.630 - 00:55:32.970

And I would say, definitely look about your local community and how your business fits in. Yeah, it's so true that connection is-is of paramount importance. I completely agree.

00:55:33.540 - 00:55:42.870

What are your future plans for the business? I know, you mentioned that one of your daughters is running the business right now. But are there any other changes in store?

00:55:44.930 - 00:56:01.820

It's really up to her. I'm, let me just say that my ownership has been split between my daughter and my wife and me, kind of equally. And so they could outvote me and send me down the road any day.

00:56:02.980 - 00:56:18.980

But I think it really is her call, because it's-it's easy for me to hang in there right now and be available as an old guru, "been there done that." I don't want to interfere.

00:56:19.450 - 00:56:36.830

And so my, I think is that I completely in accord with what her plans are, and work with her to achieve those plans. If I, if I see a direction that she's taking that I'm a little concerned

00:56:36.830 - 00:56:50.240

about, we'll talk about that. But I tell her why. But if we're personally comfortable, and that - if we don't get anything out of the

00:56:50.240 - 00:57:04.140

brewery, or we don't owe anything to the brewery, we're good, we're fine. We're in a retirement home at the moment, already. So there's one thing that I wanted to tie back

00:57:04.420 - 00:57:18.660

from Jamaica, to the brewery. And that is, when we were growing up. If both Wongs were invited, it wasn't going to be mother and father, there's going to be the

00:57:18.660 - 00:57:38.190

whole tribe's coming, because there's no such thing as babysitters. So without babysitters, it was always a family move to whatever the event is. Right now at the brewery, we have a meadow, we also have a

00:57:38.650 - 00:57:51.930

tap room where families love to come there because Mom and Dad can come in throw a blanket down there, sit on a picnic bench and have whatever, and the kids are running around.

00:57:53.040 - 00:58:04.960

Sometimes on a Friday night, there'll be more kids than adults. As they're running around, having a good old time, they come back with food or drink and then go run around again. And they go home and they go to sleep.

00:58:07.370 - 00:58:22.020

And the kids will opt to come here every time. And the parents love it. So it's kind of a- it's almost a throwback to my upbringing as to how family stayed together in

00:58:22.020 - 00:58:36.770

those situations. And that, I'm quite proud of that actually, that aspect. Yeah, it's like you've come full circle almost, and it kind of harkens back to the phrase that like, it takes a

00:58:36.770 - 00:58:50.000

village to raise a child right? Like, you know, your - your business is helping parents, you know, raise their children, you know, open up their children to having fun just in the park again, you know, in an open space, so

00:58:50.000 - 00:59:00.170

that's wonderful. My last question for today is, what is your life motto? And what do you attribute your success and happiness to?

00:59:05.880 - 00:59:25.600

My life motto is, um, I think I have a sense of gratitude. Across the board, from the time I was very young, all the way through, there were so many folks that have been

00:59:26.240 - 00:59:38.990

helpful and good to me. And my only way of showing my appreciation is to pay it forward and do the same. So that's my type of feeling of gratitude.

00:59:40.030 - 00:59:53.650

I believe that's probably the same thing. That's the underpinning of my sense of wellbeing, happiness. And well, as far as

00:59:53.650 - 01:00:11.080

success is concerned, that a lot of that is straight up luck, you know, I've always, now I remember, I was with my mother on this and she said, you know, when I was somewhere in about, I don't know, my early teens I think she

01:00:11.080 - 01:00:25.370

said, "One day, son, you know," she was speaking in Chinese to me, she doesn't call me by my name, and it's really pretentious, you know. "Son," she said, "you're fairly bright.

01:00:26.490 - 01:00:43.780

You're very lazy. But by God, you're lucky." And to live with that, Kelsey, that's been my motto all my life. So you can, you can have everything coming your

01:00:43.940 - 01:00:58.280

way. And it just doesn't work... due to no fault, you can work hard, and be smart, be everything. And the timing is bad. It doesn't work. So I would say there was success I've had I - I

01:00:59.680 - 01:01:17.110

think it's a big part of it is my respect for other people, like gratitude for people. And most importantly, plain dumb luck. I love that. That's so honest.

01:01:17.110 - 01:01:31.380

And I love that. Do you have any questions for me or anything that maybe I passed over that you would like to elaborate more on? No, you - you've you've gone through quite a bit of my stuff.

01:01:31.460 - 01:01:48.570

And it's fascinating that you've, you all are doing this now that you, Rice University, and you all got started. It's-it's interesting that some of the things I heard

01:01:48.700 - 01:02:04.780

from when initially about how do I fit in and what kinds of potential prejudices I might've run into? And it may-maybe I'm blind, but you know, I don't know.

01:02:04.890 - 01:02:17.420

I really haven't. Run into much of it at all. Yeah, I'm glad for you. That's great. So alright. Well, I think we're done but I'm going to stop the recording

01:02:17.420 - 01:02:19.250

now. Okay.