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So today is December 5th, 2021. My name is Kevin, and this is the punk and metal project of the Houston Asian American Archive. Today, I'll be talking with Nibu Abraham, he's the bassist for The

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Tomfooligans, a Celtic punk band. So thank you so much for taking the time of your day to talk with me today. Sure, yeah . So I guess I'll start off with asking a few questions about, like, your

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early musical experiences. So you know, as a musician, how did you first get into, you know, like hardcore or punk music, like were there early––like any early experiences that kind of fostered your, you know,

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interests there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So back in––back in the 90s, I used to hang out with a bunch of skaters. And used

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to watch a bunch of skate videos––I don't skate, just as a—just as a-a-a—as a-a––you know, I just want to put that out there. I–I don't personally skate but I did hang out with a bunch of skaters. And there were a

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series of videos that came out––like skate videos. And they would–they would often edit th-the videos with punk and hardcore and metal. And that's kind of a little bit of how I got like–like,

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sort of into it. And then I was–I was really lucky enough to live in a neighborhood that was just across the street from a record store called Vinyl Edge.

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And at the time, there weren't that many record stores in Houston, let alone, there weren't that many record stores that sold––that––whose focus was kind of underground music in general. And the owner of the record store, Chuck Roast, was

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like an old punk guy from like the New Jersey area and so, often, you would go in that store and just find like tons of punk, tons of metal. And that was kind of like my introduction of just getting into like–like those kind-kinds of

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sounds and–and I just really gravitated towards punk and metal in–in kind of my teens, just from skate videos, and just–just having this–this record store available to me that, you

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know, was churning out like–like a bunch of underground punk. And so that's– that's––I mean, and then, you know, from there, when––back in the day, there was a–– there was like a zine that you would get.

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So you-you'd purchase record. And then they'd have like free stuff––like, okay, you bought a record, you’d get like this free zine, or you get this––these free, sampler

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cassettes. And the free zine was a punk magazine called Maximumrocknroll that would list, you know, bands coming to your town, like demos, like it would have demo reviews, it would have like, places to

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order independent punk. And then the–the sampler cassettes would be full of like, just punk rock bands, New York hardcore bands, metal bands, death metal bands, black metal bands––so it–it kind of just

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like created, you know, for me, like a reality of like, oh man, like the scenes––like the-these, these sounds are pretty awesome. And–and I kind of got into it that way.

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I mean, this is prior to going to any show, you know, like–like not having the ability to, like, have a car, get–get someone to get me to a show, like I was able to experience kind of like, punk and metal just through zines and–and through–through

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getting the music through Vinyl Edge. So yeah. So were you kind of like hooked to that music like–like immediately because, you know, a lot of people kind of describe kind of like gateway bands that kind of ease their way

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into, you know, like black metal or hardcore music. Do you have any, like, gateway bands or anything of that sort? Oh, I think––there's a–there's a couple things.

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So, definitely, like I mean, I think I was just like a––at the time I wa––when I turned 10, I had gotten a guitar, and I just loved Metallica––I loved Metallica. And I think Metallica really kind of like was one of those

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gateway bands in–in a sense. They just exposed me—I mean, at the time, they had made one of the biggest albums, their––The Black Album. And you

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can actually––you-you'd actually hear them on the radio. I mean, it was–it was kind of phenomenal, like at the time. Like it was just like oh, wow, you're hearing real thrash metal on the radio, like awesome.

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And then Metallica was like big fans of the Misfits and covered Misfits songs. And so I–I mean, for me, punk's introduction was all the Misfits, like, I mean, like, the

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Mis––and once I heard the Misfits, I—and I just fell in love with like–like the original Misfits, I was just fell in love with Danzig's voice and I was just like, thi-this is it. A-and there was something about like, you know,

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these songs not being longer than two minutes. That was just like genius to me and then made me crave more. So yeah, if there was like a–a gateway band, it was probably–it was probably the Misfits, definitely, more than–more than any other

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band, and then the Misfits being so kind of like a part of many subgenres of punk––horror punk, you know, kind of the gateway to hardcore.

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I mean, you could branch out like the–the–the roots from–from which other bands come from like, pro––will probably goes back to the Misfits. But yeah, it was definitely the Misfits.

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You said you picked up a guitar at age 10. So I guess how did you––how'd you learn to play guitar? Did you have a teacher, like were you self-taught? So–so like I said,

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like, back in the day, when you go to a record store, like they would have like––like record stores weren't just record stores, they were like––at––like quasi bookstores, they were quasi ma-magazine stores, quasi paraphernalia

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stores, you know, they-they'd had––have shirts. So a bunch of times, like, I would purchase records, or–or CDs, or tapes, or whatever––you would get like a free magazine.

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And a lot of those magazines were like, guitar magazines. And those guitar magazines, at the–at the last, like 20 pages of those magazines would be tablature.

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Or like, they weren't like the notes of–of how to play guitar, they were the numbers of the frets where you need to put your hand on. And that's all like I knew, so I kind of just taught myself based on like, okay, like

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if, like, I know like the timing of the song because I heard the song a million times, now I just––now I know where to place my hands on the frets of the guitar. All right, I can figure out the song.

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And that's kind of how––I–I mean, I think for–for most kids in the 90s, we all learned from guitar tabs from–from the back of these magazines. And then it got to a point where if you saw a guitar magazine,

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like in Kroger's, or like, whatever grocery store, you would just look at the back, like 20 pages, see what songs that they're––they have the tabs for. And if you like the song, you just kind of ripped off the–the

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pages, stuff–stuff them down your pants, and then you know you get to figure out the song later on that day. I'm actually pretty familiar with like, tabs, too. And I guess like, you know, playing a lot of tabs, like

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did you ever dive more into like the theory, or kind of build up like a theoretical foundation? Or do you always just kind of go with tabs and then build your knowledge up from there?

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I think, you know, like honestly, like, what––okay, so like, I'm now––I'm 40, and I am just now learning music theory. But I–I–I––tabs

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helped me develop the muscle memory to learn how to play. But the thing that like helped me become a player was just being in bands. And when I finally played with

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people, like–like it didn't even matter if it was like a real thing where we had gigs, or we didn't have gigs. When I finally played with people, I understood way more about musicianship, way more about–about

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playing guitar or bass, whatever it is, way more about, like having to be in key, and, like, what octaves are and all of that. Like, I think, like–like it's like one thing to, like, watch a basketball game, it's another thing to play it, and

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like–and like when you're in––when you're all together with a group of people, and you're trying to like just make a song happen at the same time, it is like––it's like playing a basketball game.

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It's like––you-you're on, and you learn so much more from that moment forward. But yeah, that––like, I'm not like––I'm like––I'm learning theory just now. Just on my own by my––by myself.

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I don't think I ever—I think I had kind of like that–that punk rock mentality of like, you don't ever really have to know how to–to do it, you just do it––like DIY. Yes, yes. Like––I guess a lot of people who like–like play guitar

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and like metal and punk, a lot of people say they're like, allergic to theory, you know? Yeah. . But–but, you know, and I knew and I played with guys who did know theory, and oftentimes

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just playing with those guys, and the-they would teach me like, really quick tricks like, “Hey, if you’re ever here, you know like, you can go here, here, or here on the guitar. That's usually where

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you–you go.” And they'd be like, that's music theory. You know, like, these progressions usually work together. Or now that I'm playing bass, I've had, you know, folks who did know theory that I played with,

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who would tell me like, “Oh, this is how country musicians play bass guitar, and we kind of use these same licks–licks in punk rock,” and–and I would learn kind of piece by piece, not necessarily in a

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disciplined, you know, manner just like–like someone showing you like, hey, this is, you know, this–this is the best way to–to make these patterns of chord progressions or whatever, baselines.

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But yeah, that was–that was just picking up from other musicians, even ones who have been like classically learnt musicians, you know, like, I would pick up just from playing with them. I guess my next question is, you know, when did you, I

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guess, first start, you know, getting into bands or trying to make music, that–that sort of thing? Oh man, so that's been like a long process for a number of reasons, right, like so number one, like, I

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mean obviously even though I love music, like my parents came from another country, did not want me to pursue that, like, so it was never something I took probably with, like, full force energy that my heroes

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did. Because it was always set in place, like, hey, you got to go to college you got to get a degree, you got to get a job, right. Even though I was like, o-obsessed––I was obsessed.

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And I sti––I think I still am to this day, obsessed with music. And so––like, I definitely never did the “quit my job, join a band” type

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situation, it was always like, everybody I'm with has to be of the same kind of mind. So I've been playing with people, trying to make bands happen, since I was

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like 16. And throughout college, I've had like little stints here and there, of like being in a quote unquote band––how-however you want to loosely define

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band, right? Like, cause it would be like, we would create these songs, but some––oftentimes, like these bands would––we'd never perform, we'd just be playing kind of to ourselves with, you know, with-within

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the four walls of wherever we decided to play. And we––and oftentimes it would be like––it'd be like a bass player and guitar player, no drummer, or like me playing with a drummer and no––a-a-a-and–and another guitarist and no

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vocalist, you know, it'd be this hodgepodge of whatever, just trying to––just folks trying–trying to get together and play–play music. And so I never like––I had like, a few like, I would say, like, kind of indie rock

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band experiences. And a few times that I did perform. There was a venue called Super Happy Funland, that basically you could literally, like, walk up–up there and–and they'd have

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like basically an open mic night almost every night. And you could just walk up there and be like, “Hey, I want to perform,” and you–you could literally just get on stage and just perform for whoever was there, and it wasn't like there was

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like––there probably wasn't even 20 people there. You know, like–like you would––you could just—you can––you maybe call like 10 of your friends and then they'd show up.

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So that was kind of like my first experiences of–of being in a band. And I kind of gave up the dream and just pursued just kind of––like I pursued

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other–other forms of music. I'm also a DJ. And so I started–I started DJing more and more heavily just because like, it was–it was an easier way for me to kind of

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perform, right, like musically, and it didn't require a lot from me. And you know, like, the––there's–there's just more space for–for you to like, go, right,

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at like––and so like, in my late 20s I–I started actually like DJing, and I would specifically DJ Reggae. And I had a–had a

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Thursday night at this place called Mango's that was a kind of–kind of catty-cornered to the Numbers Nightclub. And Mango’s was like a––it's like a––it's–it's hard to explain, it's like a vegan bar and grill

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type situation. And me and a friend of mine, DJ Meshak, we would spin reggae, ska, roots, and ba-basically some Jamaican music. And

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I––like we would spin all this reggae music and all these like punk rockers and skinheads would show up. I–I–I was like, “Dude, what?

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What is going on?” And I–I didn't at that time know the full history––like I knew like skinheads like–like there were tra—what we call traditional skinheads who–who aren’t racist.

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Because when people hear the term “skinhead” they just think “racist skinhead,” but I knew there were like, you know, traditional skins in Houston, I knew some of them, but I–I didn't know like the whole history of like, what a skinhead was and this and that,

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but like these skinheads would show up and–and be just like vibing to like the early ska that we played. We played like a lot of stuff from like, kinda like the ska era––like from like six––early 60s or–or–or

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late 60s, early 70s of reggae, and bands like Toots and Maytal, you know, King Tubby, like–like just all these rand—like all

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these Jamaican–Jamaican guys, but like all these skinheads would show up. And sure enough, I got like the whole––this whole history lesson of what skinheads were originally, and how like the skinhead movement was like kind of these–these

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white working class folks from the UK, who worked in factories, listened––like worked alongside other Jamaicans who–who were—who were basically being shipped over to the UK to–to work in factories during World War 2,

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and those Jamaicans brought their music and but like these white guys and these black guys like came together and you know basically created kind of ska, skinhead reggae, that's what–that's what ska

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is, right? And–and this was like ‘69 a-and––going on to early 70s. And then like as punk started coming in, some of those working class

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white guys took some of those elements of reggae and ska and–and fused it with punk. And so you had like this whole Oi! movement. So long story short, I mean I met a ton of these like,

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traditional skinheads from Houston just by DJing, and befriended them, we started hanging out more. And a–a good friend of mine, Scott Mesorana, he was

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the lead singer of a–a band called No Resistance, and his guitarist kind of–kind of flaked out on him and quit. And he found out I played guitar, and he literally asked me to–to just like, substitute

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as a guitarist. Like, it was–it was pretty interesting because I was–was kind of like, I was kind of shy, I guess. I mean, I was just kind of like, dude, like, I'm not–I'm not a real guitarist. He's like, dude, these are punk rock songs,

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and you know, like, trust me, you can learn them in a day. And I did. I totally learned all these songs in a day. Like me, him, and the drummer, just–just––he just did step by step showed me all the songs.

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He's like, this is all you got to do. They're all power chords. I mean, it was just––it was–it was super easy. And I was like, okay, like, okay, I got these songs down.

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He's like, okay, cool. We––he's like, we got a show, we got offered a show, and I–I need a drummer so like, he needed me to––I mean a guitarist, so he needed me to sub.

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And so I substituted for him for the first show. And we were opening up for a punk band called the Street Dogs that are pretty popular. And it was the first time I–I actually, I would say, played a real

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show. I was like, 29. So like, way past the age of, you know, like, what I thought, like, when I thought it would be in a band, like, I never thought like, that would be the age, you know, where I–where I would

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start kind of like actually playing in a band. And so I was like, okay, this is cool, you know, and I played well, and I–I think it was actually a pretty– pretty good show. And as we're coming off the stage,

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Scott gets asked to play like another show. And he's looking at me because I'm the substitute guitar player, he can only play a show if I–if I agree. So I'm like, yeah, sure, why not.

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So we play another show. And kind of the same situation happens, like, we get off stage, he gets asked to play another show. And I'm just like, “Uh, I guess,” you know, like, so this–this

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makes three shows at this point. And about the third that like–like the beginning of the third show that I played with No Resistance, he basically just introduced me as the new guitarist. And it just kind of

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just–just became a thing from that point on, then we started like, actually recording songs together, where I'm–where I'm actually formulating the music with them, not necessarily playing their old–old catalog.

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And so that was kind of my–my whole introduction to actually, I would say, playing in a real punk rock band at a punk function, you know? I guess, you know, on–on the topic of No Resistance, could

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you kind of tell us a bit more about, I guess, the creative process, you know, in recording, you know, writing new songs? I guess your role in that. Okay.

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Yeah-yeah. So–so No Resistance was a skinhead punk band. And–and so, like, it's–it's–it's interesting, because, I mean, there's–there's like a million sub genres to everything, right?

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There's like a million sub genres of metal, like, there's black metal, satanic metal, death metal, there's nu metal there's, you know, whatever. And the same thing goes for punk. And so there's–there's like, all these different

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categories, horror core and hardcore and–and, you know, just psychobilly and you–you can go on and on. And so like I said, like–like, No Resistance was basically a–an Oi!

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band making Oi! or what they called street–street punk. So it's very working class. A lot of the lyrics have to deal with being a skinhead, or

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skinhead themes. And, we––but–but everybody in the band was like, fans of all sorts of stuff, like we're–we're fans of, like, psychedelic music, we’re fans

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of–of metal, we are fans of–of hip hop, even. We're fans of just everything. So we kind of incorporated like, different, like, I–I wouldn't––we wouldn't incorporate the same kind of

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like timing, the same chord progressions that most Oi! bands would use, and–and some of our songs definitely have some kind of, like, I guess, psychedelic elements to it, or–or freestyle elements to it,

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but–but–but like, our process was kind of––it was just kind of all organic, in the sense that like–like, our–our lead singer had to like it enough to want to write lyrics to it.

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So if I play something, and it, you know, it–it really catches his ear, he would say, “Hey, keep playing that.” And at––like––at like––I just play this riff over and over and over and over.

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The drummer would come in, keep the timing. And–and he would just like kind of come in and just start writing lyrics. And so everything kind of happened organic,

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sometimes the––he was the lead singer and the bass player at the time, Scott, aka Stapes. And so sometimes it would happen that he would just be like, “Hey, I came up with a song, figure out the guitar

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part.” He would have the bassline––and–and I would take his baseline because it was like the root note and then just start putting power chords around it. And then I would figure out like a–a–a solo that was good enough to put on the record.

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And then oftentimes, we would be asked, so we had gotten signed to a German re–record label. And the label would ask us, “Hey, do you want to be part of this compilation or

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whatever? Like, you know, do you want to be–be on the 7 inch,” whatever. And we would owe them a song within like, three weeks, right? But all of us are working––my drummer was a fireman. Scott was a paralegal.

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I like––and I was, you know, doing whatever I was, at the time, probably working at an animal shelter. I've had a million jobs. That's besides the point, but–but we would

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oftentimes, like, when–when we'd get those like emails or calls like, “Hey, like do you want to be on this punk compilation? Or hey, do you want to, you know, be a part of the 7 inch?” We would go into the studio and just make a song that day.

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Like, we would just like, hey, do you like––you know, like, I'd play something, if Scott liked it, we would–we would go forward with it and finish the song. And if he didn't like it, then I'd–I'd try something else.

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Try another chord progression. And–and it was–it was alway-always. I mean, it'd be frustrating, I'll be honest, being–being––it like––it would be like this crazy

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group project, I guess, like, you know, and it's––we either all get––are all getting along, or you're–you're all like, totally hating each other’s guts just trying to finish it. You know?

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So you mentioned the–the lead singer. So my understanding he wrote all the lyrics? So–– Okay. And–– I–I was just a–at—for No Resistance I was just a lead guitar player.

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The–the guitar––the rhythm guitar player and the guitar player. Mhm. And so I guess, like, before we move on to, I guess, your current band, I'd just like to ask, I

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guess–I guess what was your takeaway experience from, you know, No Resistance, I guess, like did you discover any, like, new passions in like, writing music or––and like, what were I guess your favorite things

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about, you know, just being in a band? Oh, man. Like, it changed my life. I mean, it–it definitely like, it made me look at everything differently. Because first

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off, I never thought I'd–I'd be in a band. So just having the honor to be in a band and then play. And was–was–was awesome enough, and inside a scene that I–I really–I really loved and

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adored. But I never got to be like onstage, like everybody I saw on stage was either white, black, or Hispanic. And so like, for me, I felt like, I-I'll be honest, I felt extra special.

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Just–just having the ability to perform, and there was just so many moments that I–I loved about being in that band. Like we went on tour, we–we got signed to a record label, we press

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records. And so people just got to like, hear us from all over the country. And I think, oh man, there's so many takeaways. I mean, first and foremost, I got to play

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with some incredible musicians. Like folks that are like world––I mean in like––in our scene, especially the Oi! scene, they were just like, the biggest of the big bands of our scene. So I got to––we got to open up for The Business.

00:29:35.640 - 00:29:50.510

We got to open up for Forced Reality, Sheer Terror, like these were like bands that were like––th-that were on some of those skate ma—like skateboard videos and some of–some of those like magazines that I would pick up, like–like they were–they

00:29:50.510 - 00:30:05.350

were––you know, I would see some of their shirts in–in record stores, and so like the idea that I'm now playing with them, and/or touring with them––you know, a-and it wasn't like huge tours or whatever, but like it was still–it was still cool.

00:30:06.480 - 00:30:20.060

We–we even got to do like a pretty–pretty big punk rock festival called 2000 Tons of TNT in Connecticut. And I mean, just–just the–the–the––we

00:30:21.120 - 00:30:36.170

played with this really famous punk rock band X, and The Exploited, and I mean it was just incredible like just–just having your punk rock heroes on the same bill as you–you just––you––in your

00:30:36.170 - 00:30:48.970

mind you never think you could ever attain that, like you always think you're only going to play with like local bands. Then when you're given the opportunity to play with–with people who have literally toured across the world, that's awesome––that was

00:30:48.970 - 00:31:04.820

awesome. And then the–the other thing that like, you know, that was really awesome was I met so many awesome skinheads from like, around the nation. That–that, I mean we're friends to this day.

00:31:05.450 - 00:31:18.830

So just kind of like being absorbed into the scene. And–and be––like–like, it's–it's weird ‘cause like, especially

00:31:21.350 - 00:31:34.890

as–as someone who's Indian, you don't think you're ever going to get accepted. And then you're like, not only am I accepted, I'm in one of those bands, you know, like–like, it was kind of awesome.

00:31:34.890 - 00:31:52.540

Like, you know, it was kind of awesome being recognized for–for like, being a part–part of something that you didn't think you could fully be a part of because of your background, and–and

00:31:52.760 - 00:32:07.010

especially your racial makeup. But, yeah, I've learned so many lessons; I learned–I learned how to play with people, I learned how–how, you know, like, I've learned so much about history, I learned so much from other

00:32:07.010 - 00:32:17.290

musicians, like, it was like a constant learning process. And I–I feel like everyone who's been in a band, it's–it's like you–you never

00:32:17.580 - 00:32:32.550

lose––like you never lose the attraction. Like you–you want to continue playing from that–that point forward. Like the second you actually play on stage in your scene, and you get some kind of respect,

00:32:32.550 - 00:32:45.550

you're like, itching to do it again. So, yeah. So you mentioned briefly about, you know, race and background. I want to come back to that later

00:32:46.410 - 00:32:57.790

but I think that's a very important point that you brought up. But I guess like, based on what you've been telling me, you know, you had a great experience with No Resistance. So what kind of

00:32:57.790 - 00:33:13.860

motivated you to move on to your current band, The Tomfooligans, and I guess how long have you been, you know, playing with them? Yeah, so you know, just like all of us––so No Resistance at–at–at

00:33:14.920 - 00:33:29.400

first was when I joined the band. So the former guitarist, Tracy, had left; I had joined the band. So I was like—the second rendition of this band was me, Scott, the lead singer, and Chad, the drummer.

00:33:30.790 - 00:33:43.050

I'm bring––I bring up these names because they're gonna play a factor into my new band. So we started playing together. And it got to a point where

00:33:43.740 - 00:34:00.730

we were doing really well. And Scott needed to just focus on his vocals. And–and I was doing a lot in the recording process that we could use an

00:34:00.820 - 00:34:14.350

extra guitar player. So we ended up snatching a pretty famous Houston bass player, Mykel Foster, who played with an–an old–– probably one of the first Houston

00:34:14.350 - 00:34:32.290

hardcore bands, Tread. And so Mykel became our bass player. And then we grabbed a Filipino skinhead, Nikki, who I–I gave you––I gave you her

00:34:32.410 - 00:34:52.060

information as well. But Ni–Nikki ended up becoming our kind of second guitar player slash lead slash backup singer. And I would just say, like, kind of life happened, and we

00:34:52.060 - 00:35:08.510

just weren't able to all get together as often as a band and–and just practice, like we were—oftentimes we'd be like––we'd be asked to do a show, we'd do the show, but we'd never practice.

00:35:09.270 - 00:35:23.780

And it wasn't a big deal because, like, I knew the songs enough to where we pulled it off. But it would always be like fright, it would be really stressful. And because

00:35:23.780 - 00:35:37.970

you're–you're like, okay, like, I didn't practice at all and know these songs, like you–you practice on your own, but practicing on your own is not as a real thing as playing with a band. Like when you play in

00:35:37.970 - 00:35:54.000

practice, versus like practicing in your room by yourself, they’re two totally different concepts. Like it's–it's weird. But we just ended up like playing shows more often than practicing.

00:35:54.180 - 00:36:02.070

And that really got to the band. And life just kind of happened. We all just started getting busy. And it kind of just fizzled out.

00:36:02.170 - 00:36:24.090

It just fizzled away. And because we hadn't been playing in months, I had wanted––I had to––I want—a-again, I had wanted to continue playing–playing punk rock. And so did my drummer.

00:36:25.640 - 00:36:42.310

But my lead singer, he was kind of out, plus he had two kids that he had to take care of. I mean, I'm not, you know, he was–he was just busy doing his family stuff. And then, so–so me and the drummer had decided, Chad, that we–we wanted to continue playing.

00:36:45.100 - 00:36:58.910

One of my friends was in a Celtic punk band called The Tomfooligans. And they had like moderate success around town, especially around St.

00:36:58.910 - 00:37:13.290

Patrick's Day because everybody wants to hear bagpipes around St. Patrick's Day. So basically what a Celtic punk band is–is basically we–we cut––we punkify kind of like Scottish and Irish tunes.

00:37:14.860 - 00:37:29.700

And–and there's a couple bands that have been doing this: Dropkick Murphys, Flogging Molly, The Pogues. And so The Tomfooligans kind of had been playing around breweries and stuff, especially around St. Patrick's Day.

00:37:31.120 - 00:37:45.460

And so the lead singer, Jude, was a good friend of mine. And the bass player, Patrick, was a good––also a good friend of mine as well. And Patrick had unfortunately committed suicide.

00:37:47.010 - 00:37:55.570

And so The Tomfooligans cut––weren't doing anything. They were–they were out a bass player. And then their drummer was kind of

00:37:56.470 - 00:38:13.610

flaky. And so they had been––they were looking for a bass player and a drummer. And I––you know, I was like, hey, like I had–I had the itch; I wanted to play again. And so I was like, hey, I'm down to play,

00:38:14.160 - 00:38:25.250

you know. I know I'm not Irish. But I’m–I’m down to play, you know. And–and Jude was like, totally cool with it. The bagpipe player, Bo, was totally cool with it.

00:38:26.650 - 00:38:42.230

And it just so happened the bagpipe player––play––is a Houston fireman, and my drummer was a Houston fireman. And so they kind of connected there and so me and Chad basically went from No

00:38:42.230 - 00:39:00.100

Resistance to–to the Tomfooligans, an-and often, you know, I found that most punk musicians, Nikki included, came from one band, then would transfer to another band. And then it would be kind of this like

00:39:00.510 - 00:39:12.720

rotating circus of punk musicians, especially in the Houston area. Most guys I know have been––have played in three or four bands, like–like everybody's been in like three or four bands.

00:39:19.540 - 00:39:38.080

So you know, being in that band, I guess, can you tell us a bit more about, you know, Celtic punk, what exactly that entails, and why do you think, you know, it meshes so good, you know, with punk music

00:39:38.080 - 00:39:56.830

especially? Sure. So I think, you know, punk is like––punk's about doing the most with the least, in a lot of ways, or just doing––making stuff happen.

00:39:57.060 - 00:40:14.190

And–and so yeah, like–like there are these Celtic–Celtic bands like Dropkick Murphys, Flogging Molly, that–that take kind of like Irish instruments and especially bagpipes, and like incorporate them into–into

00:40:14.190 - 00:40:29.890

punk rock. And when you think about the bagpipe, it's just this like really loud, almost obnoxious instrument, right? And like our bagpipe player, he plays in key of A, look

00:40:29.890 - 00:40:41.470

I–I learned a little music theory there. But our bagpipe–bagpipe player only has so many places he can go, right? On–only so many places he can travel on the–on the bagpipe.

00:40:42.350 - 00:40:57.950

And because like––because we're playing punk, it's not like some complicated, like, we're not trying to–trying to be classical musicians here, you know, like–like it–it I don't know

00:40:57.950 - 00:41:12.590

why, but it works so well having the constraints of “the bagpipe can only go here, and we're trying to play with a bagpipe, and include it in the band.” And we can do that with these limited number of notes.

00:41:13.210 - 00:41:29.960

And we're all loud, and we can all play fast. Boom. But–but–but yeah, like i-it just, it's one of the––it's–it's–it's just––I think it––I–I don't know who started playing bagpipes with–with, you know,

00:41:30.610 - 00:41:44.830

punk bands. I'm–I'm pretty sure it's probably, you know, Flogging Molly or Dropkick Murphys, but it works well. Like, to me, it works really well. The fact that there are––and now there's a ton of bands,

00:41:45.290 - 00:42:02.460

Potato Pirates, I mean, there's a ton of bands that–that are Celtic punk. I doubt there's anyone with an Indian musician in there, but–but who knows, there might be. But yeah–yeah, like, now there are

00:42:02.460 - 00:42:19.450

a ton of Celtic punk bands out there. You know, and in terms of like the creative process again, in–in The Tomfooligans do you also––do you have any, I guess, say in the lyric–lyrical content, or are you mostly

00:42:19.450 - 00:42:37.060

focused on, you know, bass? I––okay, so I don't––I really don't mess with any of the lyrics ever because I'm not the one singing it. And so, I–I always leave that to the singer.

00:42:38.220 - 00:42:55.450

But what I will do is I will say, “Hey, we should play it faster, slower, more like this, more like that.” So, the––my creative process––like re—like recently,

00:42:56.610 - 00:43:09.060

I–I officially consider myself a part of any band once I start writing with them as–as—and–and/or recording with them, so, we just recorded––like Tomfooligans just recorded stuff,

00:43:10.580 - 00:43:25.180

and I was part of that writing process. I-I-I-In the–in the musical part––in the musical realm of creating songs. And for example, we had this song

00:43:26.940 - 00:43:43.250

called “Your Way” which–which is going to be released, which at first we played it very punk rock. But I–I felt like it could use a ska, a more ska punk

00:43:43.520 - 00:44:01.530

feel to it. And so I–I played these progression of notes in a ska style. And it became–it became our ska punk song. And so like, that's kind of where I come in, like, I'll come in, and

00:44:01.560 - 00:44:13.560

I'll–I'll–I'll–I'll put in my feedback on how the music should go. Especially as the bass player ‘cause I–I feel like the bass players always connect

00:44:13.560 - 00:44:29.730

with the drummer. And we help declare the timing in music, especially in–in punk songs. Like you know when–when the breakdown is gonna come ‘cause of the bass player, you know when the song

00:44:29.850 - 00:44:49.840

ends because of the bass player and–and so that's kind of where–where–where I–I come into–to play, as–as a member of Tomfooligans. So you–you mentioned that you just recorded some new music so,

00:44:50.720 - 00:45:06.370

I guess, is there like a tentative like release date for that or––? So right now unfortunately because of the way prices are going up––so everything–everything for us

00:45:06.370 - 00:45:22.920

right now is like DIY; we're doing it ourselves. And so I'm creating, you know, I'm helping create, like, the album cover, I'm hel-helping find prices for vinyl. And–and–and you know, we–we press our own shirts,

00:45:23.510 - 00:45:37.830

we–we sell our own merch, you know, that's how we fund, you know, the rehearsal spaces, that's how we fund, you know, like–like pressing–pressing, you know, pressing more stuff later.

00:45:37.830 - 00:45:52.430

So there's not a date right now just because I'm still looking at prices. But you know, the–the process is happening as we speak. So hopefully by the end of this year, like we're done

00:45:52.430 - 00:46:06.750

recording, we're done mastering, now it's just a matter of packaging, and–and getting–getting a–a price that I think we can, you know, break even on. And that's where we are right now.

00:46:09.140 - 00:46:24.520

Are you guys signed to a label or is it like self released? Self released. So Tomfooligans is–is just self released, No Resistance was signed to a label. But yeah––we just—a-and actually at this point, and the more I think about it, I

00:46:24.520 - 00:46:46.050

think it-it's unnecessary for anyone to sign unless they're like, touring. But–but especially for punk because it's so DIY, I think if you–if you could press your own merch, and you make it

00:46:46.050 - 00:46:59.230

happen, that's all that matters. And I've––even with the local bands I've played with, I've seen so many of them accomplish so much just

00:46:59.230 - 00:47:12.250

by themselves, without–without like any–any record labels. Now, the added bonus of having been signed to a record–record label with, like, with No Resistance was, of course, more people heard us.

00:47:14.160 - 00:47:29.130

We had a better, you know, I mean, we were selling records in Germany, we were selling records like all over. And–and there were––there's been like, a couple of times, like, I know a friend of mine went to Waterloo

00:47:29.130 - 00:47:44.820

Records in Austin. found like––showed me––like took a–took a picture with his phone and was like, “Hey man, I found your record here.” You know, like, I can go on, of all places, Instagram, and you

00:47:45.390 - 00:47:56.520

can use our music as one of the reels. You know, so from our–from our Nova Methodus album, you can–you can use

00:47:56.610 - 00:48:08.670

some of our music in there. So I mean it was––it’s, you know, like the a—the bonus of a label is they can take care of all of that, but it’s–it’s not like we––it’s not like we’re making like tons and tons of money

00:48:08.700 - 00:48:26.260

from any of that. So, I mean, might as well do it yourself. So, at this point, I kind of want to shift into talking kind of more about, you know, race, background,

00:48:26.260 - 00:48:42.210

ethnicity, in–in the genre, and–and your experience with––especially. So I guess have there been any, you know, hardships that have arisen due to your race in the–the subgenre of music, you know,

00:48:42.210 - 00:48:58.560

punk that you are involved with? 100%. In fact, I think my specific genre, because I played Oi! punk and was in skinhead bands, it

00:48:58.870 - 00:49:13.880

very racially charged. And so we have like—skinheads have like terms that they use, because a lot of these skinheads who–who are now traditional skinheads,

00:49:15.080 - 00:49:31.870

some of them have been in the past neo-Nazis. And some of them have been, like, you know, like, part of neo-Nazi factions, and have had like, you know, swastikas on them and–and stuff so.

00:49:34.300 - 00:49:52.770

Yeah, dude, like, okay, so in the 90s and early 2000s, when you would go to a punk or metal show as a person of color, not necessarily as––like if you could blend in, and

00:49:52.770 - 00:50:10.630

a lot of people would do this, if you could blend in and get with people, you would just––people––and people thought you were white, you were good, but there were times where you can go to a punk show or a metal show, and there

00:50:10.650 - 00:50:28.140

are Nazis looking to–to just–just beat you down–, stomp on you. And so it was something I've always been aware of and you'd kind of always be on guard, you'd have to always be like kind of just

00:50:28.140 - 00:50:43.530

aware of your surroundings. ‘Cause you know––and–and there would be small instances of, you know, being in the pit, and someone being extra aggressive just towards you.

00:50:44.910 - 00:51:00.400

And you would know, immediately, like, oh, you don't even have to look for like, red laces or–or–or, you know, white power rune tattoos or anything like that. You just know, like, oh this guy's–this guy's probably a skinhead and––or

00:51:01.770 - 00:51:20.510

a neo-Nazi. And he's–he's just looking to–to–to fight me, based on–based on race. I was lucky enough to where I would––I wouldn't taunt it. And so––and oftentimes, I was–I was going to the shows by myself.

00:51:21.560 - 00:51:36.940

So it was like––it wasn't like I had a whole big clique of people around me. So early on, I kind of just––if–if stuff would happen, I wouldn't–I wouldn't instigate anything.

00:51:38.550 - 00:51:53.960

I wouldn't–I wouldn't like, you know––I-I’d either try and calm down, or I’d just kind of leave the situation, like, they're–they're at the right–right side of the room, I'd be on the left side of the room, like I'd totally avoid, you know, like, kind of the ra—the–the more racial and racist

00:51:54.420 - 00:52:08.260

gangs of folks that were out there. But when I started playing in skinhead bands, there was no way to avoid that. Because I'm–I'm upsta––I'm onstage.

00:52:12.280 - 00:52:28.060

And–and what would happen often, and this, I mean, it happens a lot in Oi! shows and skinhead shows, like neo-Nazis would just show up wanting to fight everybody.

00:52:28.710 - 00:52:45.530

And being––and–and traditional skins would–would be ready. So I can give you an example of one situation that happened in Dallas. So No Resistance played a show with a band called Forced Reality.

00:52:47.160 - 00:53:04.370

And as I was playing the show, as like we're opening up, this guy, so this big skinhead comes towards me––I'm playing on stage—and just starts punching my guitar, just as I'm playing.

00:53:06.090 - 00:53:21.240

And a couple of my boys like see–see this and kind of like, you know, drag them away, or whatever. And as–as you know, our show en––like our–our

00:53:21.870 - 00:53:35.900

time on stage ends, Forced Reality gets on, they play a great show, we all get off stage, and these neo-Nazis are waiting for us as we're–as we're pa—loading up as we're like packing up at the end of the show,

00:53:36.550 - 00:53:50.290

just waiting to fight us at the end of show. And–and all because like of me, and maybe one other black person that was kind of a part of the crew. That's it.

00:53:51.580 - 00:54:08.620

Just ‘cause we existed. So we're–we're in the middle of this area of Dallas called Deep Ellum, and we're in the middle of the street; they're waiting to fight us.

00:54:09.760 - 00:54:20.610

And a whole legion of us, like traditional skinheads, walk up to them––mind you, I–I–I have to put this out there. I–I didn—wasn't

00:54:20.610 - 00:54:30.260

trying to get in a fight or anything. I was definitely in the back. Like, I was trying––I was definitely not trying to be a part of any ruckus. But a whole legion of traditional skins

00:54:32.940 - 00:54:45.250

came out there and just fought in the middle of street. And one of the guys who like–like––one of the neo-Nazis was like an MMA fighter and all this, and–and you know, it

00:54:45.250 - 00:54:57.670

was–it was a little–a little brawl. And you know, luckily it didn't–didn't turn out crazy––could have. It didn't turn out crazy. Cops ended up showing up, and even–even the neo-Nazis

00:54:59.610 - 00:55:16.050

didn't want the cops involved and–and everybody parted ways, but there have been, like, lots of incidences where just existing in that scene was–was dangerous, like 100% dangerous. And–and, you know, you just kind of have to be

00:55:17.200 - 00:55:31.780

extra on guard, extra aware as a person of color, or just, you know, ha—be really tight with the people around you like–, and luckily, there was like so many awesome traditional skins who had my back

00:55:31.780 - 00:55:47.220

and–and really like protected me and–and made sure that stuff didn't happen, like any-anything too crazy, because I definitely––it––I definitely know that like if I had been on my own, and somethin' popped off,

00:55:47.840 - 00:56:07.200

you know, who knows where I'd be, you know? Yeah, so, at the end of the day, I guess like how do you cope with, you know, like those–those like racially, like negative things that happen

00:56:07.830 - 00:56:14.940

to you or that you see? Or do you like cope at all? Ah, you know, that's interesting. That's an interesting question.

00:56:15.110 - 00:56:34.120

So because like I think, you know, the whole–the whole history of being a skinhead is very––it's a very racial history, super racial history. Like–like the idea that these white guys

00:56:36.330 - 00:56:52.930

kind of like collaborated with these Jamaicans and–and started like basically importing reggae music to the UK, thereby cre––they helped us––they really helped

00:56:54.310 - 00:57:12.530

fund-fund reggae music. If you read up the history of how the original skinheads did it, I mean, they really funded Jamaican music and the Jamaican music industry. And so

00:57:14.360 - 00:57:28.120

it's a–it's a cra—okay, so I––like, imma–imma give a hi-history lesson here. And you might know this history, but I just––I’m just gonna give a history lesson here because that––it-it-it’s so like,

00:57:28.320 - 00:57:48.240

racially defining. So during World War 2, a–a bunch of Jamaicans went over to the UK to help in factories, because they needed–they

00:57:48.940 - 00:58:06.930

needed that labor, in factories, because a lot of their men were fighting. And because now these Jamaicans were working in factories, like they couldn’t have the long dreadlocks anymore. And they started, you know, getting fades, aka sk—getting

00:58:06.930 - 00:58:26.110

skinhead, you know, short fades and the––their white, the British counterparts who–who were also working alongside them in the factories were doing the same thing. And then because they were making, now, money, you know, good money in these

00:58:26.110 - 00:58:43.710

factories, they were able to strive and survive. And––the––and even though they were just working class men––and so they would have these parties that, you know, on the weekends when they're not working at

00:58:43.710 - 00:59:00.310

the factories, and these parties, the Jamaicans would all out celebrate, bring their music, you know, out in the streets and–and–and–and then in the 60s, and in the 70s,

00:59:00.310 - 00:59:18.190

especially in the 70s, migrant Pakistani and Indian workers started going over to the UK and getting those factory jobs and undercutting the Jamaican

00:59:18.290 - 00:59:32.160

and White workers there. And when they did that, it changed the whole vibe. And so now there was this like kind of anti-Asian sentiment and they–they–they

00:59:34.190 - 00:59:50.330

started making anti-Asian reggae, like–like really racist reggae. There's–there's in fact there's–there's an album called “Paki no reggae”. That was kind of one of the first ones to–to really

00:59:50.660 - 01:00:05.330

kind of establish this anti, you know, Asian sentiment. And then sure enough, you know, those same British skinheads were like, well, not––you know, we're not just anti-Asian, we're also anti–anti these Jamaicans too––we're anti anyone who's not

01:00:05.330 - 01:00:16.660

British, you know, and that kind of really formulated what we––those-those skinheads kind of switched–switched up and became the skinheads that we know now.

01:00:18.500 - 01:00:36.710

And so like–like the history of being a skinhead is so racially charged. And it's–it's–it's both––I mean, I think it's like the––it's the realest––I

01:00:38.450 - 01:00:53.950

love Oi! music, and I love skinhead––being a skinhead because it really ma-it–it really doesn't, like––it puts everything in–in perspective, like–like when you–when you know the history, and when you know where

01:00:54.110 - 01:01:07.390

things can go, like, you can be on the same side or not on the same side in–in a blink of an eye. You could be cool with–with this guy who's like, not like you.

01:01:08.100 - 01:01:24.890

And then a year later be like, naw we're different, and I'm now establishing our differences. I think that's––I–I mean, I-I've seen it happen in politics recently.

01:01:26.320 - 01:01:38.640

People will—you’re––oh, you're a Trump supporter, they automatically like put you in a–in a category. Oh, you're, you know, whatever, you're––you know––and I-I'm not pro-Trump, either.

01:01:39.940 - 01:01:54.760

But like, it's interesting how quickly we–we can divide ourselves. And so for me, like–like, it's––I'd

01:01:56.840 - 01:02:12.320

rather–I'd rather be categorized as a punk than anything else. Or–or a skinhead than anything else. Like–like know me by being by being––I'd rather you know me as a skinhead than my religion, than my

01:02:12.410 - 01:02:28.100

race, than–than my political ideology. Like, I'd rather you know me as a skinhead ‘cause it just means more to me, because I chose it. Y-you know, like–like nobody indoctrinated me, nobody, like, I didn't

01:02:28.100 - 01:02:40.070

grow up on it. I didn't like––I just, I chose it. And so that to me is like the–the tightest thing about hardcore and Oi! and being a skinhead, is

01:02:40.070 - 01:02:52.290

that, like, I chose to be a part of the movement. And I chose to be involved. And like, I–I don't know if a lot of people can say that for–for you know, the things that they

01:02:53.240 - 01:03:09.410

quote unquote identify with. So, I guess, how do your parents react to you being in a punk band? And, you know, or, you know,

01:03:09.410 - 01:03:25.660

being a skinhead, and you know you kind of mentioned this earlier, but, you know, your parents are not, I guess, the most supportive when it comes to, like, music as–as a career. So, I guess, can you tell us more

01:03:25.660 - 01:03:44.200

about their perspective, I guess? You know what, like, they know––okay, so. Like–like they know I play, they've seen the instruments, they've seen, you know, they've–they've seen, but they don't like––it––at

01:03:50.620 - 01:03:58.310

like, they definitely don't know the name of my band . They–they don't––you know what I'm sayin'? Like, it's like–it's like they

01:03:58.310 - 01:04:11.890

just–they just know I play. Like, there's not much further dialogue than that, other than, like, “Hey, don't spend more money on this,” you know, like, if they see–see me with a new guitar, or an amp coming

01:04:11.890 - 01:04:26.230

through the door. And–and, you know, like–like it––there's not a lot of–there's not a lot of talk ‘cause it's just something that doesn't interest them. I almost like, it's almost like talking sports with somebody who's

01:04:26.230 - 01:04:40.370

not interested in sports. They definitely––and–and it's not like––none–none of my bands made it to a–to a–a–a degree where I'm touring, you know, and–and this is my full-time job.

01:04:40.420 - 01:04:59.890

And I think–I think the conversation would be a lot different or would be had, had I been a part of a more mainstream, or–or–or like––if I was in any other genre it––we'd probably have more of a conversation, but

01:04:59.890 - 01:05:13.940

like I think for a lot of how my parents view–view the music that I'm into, it’s just like, it's just like this like brief hobby or something, you know, that I'm–I'm still sticking with.

01:05:14.090 - 01:05:28.810

But there's not–there's not a lot of conversation I mean about it at all. I mean, they–they–they–they rather talk to me about, like, trying to get another certification under my belt or something . So, you

01:05:28.810 - 01:05:41.470

know, there's a lot of––well, there are certainly, you know, Asians or Asian Americans who–who really like metal, punk, hardcore you know? And so, I guess, do you

01:05:41.470 - 01:05:59.480

think, based on your experience, like, a big reason is because, you know, either like, one's immigrant parents kind of instill this culture where that's not something that you do, or it's just, like, more of like a

01:05:59.480 - 01:06:16.210

hobby or side thing, rather than an actual path, or something that's like legitimate? So, okay, so I mean I kind of want to answer that question two ways. Definitely think because of how

01:06:16.210 - 01:06:32.280

our parents came here, music in general is not something that they see as an option. Right? Because to

01:06:32.380 - 01:06:49.390

them, h—like, and I'm sure, especially–especially, you know, the situations like my parents came from, friends of mine who are–who are–who are Asian American, specifically South Asian, they came from poor villages.

01:06:50.010 - 01:07:04.260

And only people that made it were like, people who went into the medical field, or like engineering, or, you know, these certain, “you know you can get a job if you get this degree” type of fields. And I think,

01:07:05.830 - 01:07:22.620

you know, that the way they grew up is a––is always a constant reminder for us like, hey, always have a job, like you know, like, always have a backup plan. And it's never like, you know

01:07:23.560 - 01:07:42.550

take—like, it's never like–like, oh yeah, like, you could do this. Like–like I heard–I heard this––I think I heard a story about like, Travis Barker, the drummer, right, for blink-182. His dad was like–like fully supported him at

01:07:42.550 - 01:07:55.150

17. Like, “Hey, if you can make something of yourself, you know, drumming, by all means, I'll give you a year.” You know, I don't–I don't think that's even an option for–for–for us.

01:07:56.890 - 01:08:10.340

And I don't––but–but also, like, I don't think now that I'm like, 40, and I'm looking back. I don't think that's also––I also don't think that's a bad thing. Like, props to the Asians that

01:08:10.340 - 01:08:25.250

do, like, quit their jobs and like, “No, I'm gonna pursue this,” props to you guys, but also props to the ones who are like, I'm going to try and balance both, out of respect for–for my folks and–and where I come from, like–like I think, you know,

01:08:27.490 - 01:08:41.410

I don't think that like––I think it's all relative, like, you know, I got to play with some awesome bands. And I still play, and I'm still a musician. I think that's–that's what matters, you know, it doesn't––I mean, obviously, I'd

01:08:41.410 - 01:08:55.350

like to get paid millions of dollars and–and have pe-people like recognize me for what I do. But you know, I'm–I'm realistic. I play skinhead punk or Celtic punk now, you know like, you know there's only

01:08:55.350 - 01:09:11.220

so many people who like that, so it's cool. But another thing I just wanted to add there. I think Asians in general, ident––the ones that I know that are into metal and into punk and-and

01:09:11.280 - 01:09:27.980

hardcore. I think growing up in a–in a household that you're constantly like–like between two worlds,

01:09:29.660 - 01:09:44.710

you're trapped between like–like this–this world within your culture at home, then you leave that culture. You go to school, and you're–you're in another culture,

01:09:45.690 - 01:10:02.530

right? That–that doesn't i-identify with your parent. Like, it's really––it really makes you feel like outcasts. And those feelings––like feeling like an outcast.

01:10:04.420 - 01:10:19.940

Like, I–I mean, if–if there's–if there's a genre of music that really identifies with that, it's–it's punk and metal. All those––like all those guys talk about that, the lyrics are about that, like,

01:10:20.680 - 01:10:34.680

you know, the aggression is there in the sounds, it's like these feelings of like not–not feeling quite comfortable in your skin are all like––they're–they're in so many records

01:10:35.990 - 01:10:48.290

that are in punk and metal. And I think that's like––that's why when you find like Asians who are in the movement, like we're all so happy to see each other, like–like,

01:10:48.720 - 01:11:04.410

we're all like, “Oh snap dude, what's up?” you know, like, you know, number one, like, especially in the skinhead scene, oh my god, when you see another colored person, like, in the–in the skinhead scene, you're immediately like, this is going to be my new best friend.

01:11:04.740 - 01:11:21.710

You know, like, it's––it just is so refreshing. But–but, yeah, I think–I think we all identify with that kind of like–like “outcasts” kind of vibe that punk music is really about.

01:11:25.130 - 01:11:38.650

Yeah, I think you brought some really important insights, and I guess I want to shift more, I guess, to some of your general perspectives on––concerning like issues or current events.

01:11:39.310 - 01:11:53.200

And I guess, you know, as you're aware, there's been a lot of, like, anti-Asian sentiment and violence recently. And I guess like, in general, what's your perspective on this, and also, how do you

01:11:53.200 - 01:12:04.320

think Asian musicians, especially in like punk and metal, what can they do to like, potentially fight back, or if there's even a role for them in this?

01:12:08.190 - 01:12:28.130

I have, like, I have so many feelings about that, in general. Okay, so like, I mean, so, you know, just like kind of, you know, especially with the pandemic and then

01:12:29.110 - 01:12:45.430

like–like folks like Trump saying, you know, the Chinese flu or the flu from–from China and things like that, you know, to–to–to–to single out anybody, I think is just, I think it's really despicable.

01:12:46.820 - 01:13:02.470

To kind of like harvest this idea of, you know, us versus them, this kind of xenophobic idea of us versus them, is–is––it's–it's terrible. Like, it's–it's so

01:13:02.470 - 01:13:19.960

terrible. You-you would think, you know, especially like us being almost half a century out from, I mean, more than half a century out from like the civil rights movement, we'd be past this, but like, also, like, let's

01:13:19.960 - 01:13:42.470

be real, like humanity is humanity, right? I–I don't know if there's a right way to fight that type of sentiment other–other than, like, continuing to like to have conversations.

01:13:43.810 - 01:13:59.010

And I know–I know, for a fact, you know, I know guys, skinheads, who used to be ne-neo-Nazis, who had like swastikas up and down, up and down their backs,

01:14:00.280 - 01:14:17.650

used to wear red laces, used to be like––used to fund and help fund, you know, racial movements. And the–the–the thing that turned them around, they made––they made a–they made a–a–a friend who was a Black skinhead or a Hispanic

01:14:17.650 - 01:14:33.610

skinhead, or whatever, you know, and they tell me that, you know, they tell me, like, “Yeah, I used to be–I used to be a former neo-Nazi,” you know, like–like it's––I think it's–I think it's doable.

01:14:33.950 - 01:14:49.390

You can change people's perspective within the scene, just by having conversations, and I've seen it–I've seen it happen. It didn't happen overnight. It didn't happen, like, it didn't happen

01:14:49.390 - 01:15:06.230

through necessarily like, you know––it just hap—just happened with conversations like people like–like–like figuring out like, oh, you like the same stuff I do, like, oh we're not that–that dissimilar.

01:15:07.050 - 01:15:25.440

And, you know, for–for other, you know, A-Asian musicians like, I feel like you know, as–as long as they keep on–keep on doing what they're doing, people will appreciate it, and there's a ton of like––there's a

01:15:25.550 - 01:15:40.610

ton of like, people of color, especially in the skinhead scene who are–who are–who are really changing people's attitudes and perspectives. And I–I, like for example, right now, Malaysia,

01:15:42.770 - 01:15:55.830

Indonesia has a good, really, like really thriving skinhead scene. And there's some, you know, folks–folks from Singapore, there's a band called ACAB, All Coppers Are Bastards,

01:15:57.820 - 01:16:07.760

that makes skinhead punk. And all those guys are Asian, you know. And, you know, when they–when they––when they're

01:16:08.770 - 01:16:23.800

on the same compilations as–as other skinhead punk bands, it exposes those guys, you know, and those guys are like, hey, like–like, you know, like I've even had like racist skinheads be like “Hey

01:16:23.800 - 01:16:39.490

man, like, I like your music,” you know, full on–full on red laces, blah, blah, blah, like “Hey man, you know, yall’s–yall’s music is good.” They–they didn't talk to me, you know, they didn't––but like, hey, that's a start, and I think that, you know,

01:16:39.490 - 01:16:52.050

just like for–for–for those folks in the metal scene, in the punk scene, especially like I think the thing that punk––Oi!––like, especially Oi! bands and black metal bands, the thing that we deal with the most is–is

01:16:53.280 - 01:17:09.450

there's a legion of us that are in bands that are–that are racist. And you don't know if—when—if you're going to a show whether you're going to have to be a part of racial violence. And so, you know, just, I

01:17:09.450 - 01:17:23.360

mean, just keep doing what you're doing. Like–like I want–I want––of course, I want to see more Asian exposure in like those scenes, but I don't want it unauthentically, like I don't want it forced, ‘cause I feel

01:17:23.360 - 01:17:39.290

like so much of what we’re seeing in the media, like, when they try and you know, when they put like, when they give Awkwafina a show or whoever a show, like it’s just like this forced, like, “Hey, we're exposing people to Asian culture.” And it's like–like

01:17:39.630 - 01:17:54.780

it's–it's like they're forcing it down our throat rather than it being authentic. Yeah. And, you know, I think you've raised a lot of important points. And music can really serve as

01:17:55.190 - 01:18:13.050

kind of a bridge really. And I just have a few more questions for you and I guess, kind of to wrap up, you know, we've been talking a lot about, you know, punk music, Asians in punk.

01:18:13.670 - 01:18:30.600

So do you have any advice for, you know, punk, hardcore musicians who are, you know, Asian or Asian American who are just trying to get into the scene or just want to play in a band? Yeah, you know, I think, I–I–I

01:18:32.740 - 01:18:45.480

just think like, I'd say this to anybody, whether they're–– they'd be they were–they were Asian or not, like–like, just whatever you do, do it authentically. Like

01:18:45.510 - 01:18:57.930

really––don't–don't do it because you're–you're trying to get money. Don't do it because you're trying to get–get, you know, a girl or a guy or whatever you're into. Do it because like, you just want to make

01:18:57.930 - 01:19:14.760

music. Don't think of, you know, don't think of age, don't think of getting signed, don't think about how many people come to your show, or how many people listen to you. I think if you're–if you're into what

01:19:14.760 - 01:19:34.030

you're into, just be about it, you know, and just do it. Just do it with your heart because like, I feel like especially now in this day and age, so many people are like, trynna–trynna like, so many people look at

01:19:34.210 - 01:19:50.670

being in a punk band or being in a band in a capitalist way. Like, how can we get the most exposure and the most streams and the most whatever? And, number one, I don't think that's even the–the way–the way you

01:19:50.780 - 01:20:05.850

should operate if you're going to be in punk rock at all. I think you should just love the idea of like, ”Hey, I get to play, “and I've heard Henry Rollins talk about this when–when he first joined Black Flag, and

01:20:06.780 - 01:20:20.670

I think he was like in Oklahoma or something. And he said, like, you know, Black Flag was doing a show in Oklahoma and there was like nobody at the bar. And he–he was like–he was like not gonna do the show.

01:20:20.670 - 01:20:30.300

And the rest of his band was like, what are you doing? He's like, dude, there's no one here. And they were like, we–we got booked. To play a show, we're gonna

01:20:30.300 - 01:20:44.820

play a show. And, you know, like, I think that's what being in a band is all about, like, it doesn't matter if anyone hears your music at all.

01:20:45.550 - 01:20:59.440

It matters whether you want to play it. And if you want to play it, fucking do it. Yeah, so, at this point I'd just like to ask, do you have any final

01:20:59.440 - 01:21:16.260

messages or anything else you'd like to share that perhaps I didn't cover, or you'd just like to provide? Yeah, like––so for like––first off,

01:21:16.260 - 01:21:33.100

like, I think I just wanted to like kind of talk briefly about just the Houston punk scene. The Houston punk scene's like rich in history, we have–we have some amazing punk bands that came out of here, we have some amazing artists that came out of here.

01:21:36.340 - 01:21:47.860

Like D.R.I., I–I mean, there's just like a laundry list of bands, both that made it and that didn't make it. And I think with Houston,

01:21:47.860 - 01:22:01.140

we always fought for kind of like recognition. And that's why like Houston bands, or Texas bands in general, Texas bands, in general, like, really fought to get attention.

01:22:01.990 - 01:22:20.750

And I think we made some of the best punk rock ever––hardcore even––and metal ever. And there's something about not being recognized on an–on an national or international scale that makes––I

01:22:21.260 - 01:22:36.760

think that kind of makes the music even better. Like–like–like the idea that like–like we're not from LA, we're not from New York. There's no CBGBs over here. Yeah, like, these bands decided, like, no, we can have a

01:22:36.760 - 01:22:49.150

scene here, like something about that is so awesome to me. And in that same kind of vein, like, that's how I kind of view myself as–as like an Asian,

01:22:50.120 - 01:23:03.500

Southea—South–South Asian in this scene, it's like, because I have to kind of fight for recognition. I have to play better. I have to–I have to be better, I have to––like my band has to be about it, you know, like, and

01:23:04.240 - 01:23:17.100

I'm–I'm really blessed and lucky that, like, everybody I played with had that same kind of hunger, you know? Mainly because like, we're–we're playing, we're from Texas. No one thinks of Texas as a hub for

01:23:17.600 - 01:23:36.240

hardcore or–or Oi!, and, yeah, we did it, and so yeah, that's just–just I think that kind of hunger of not being recognized not being at like—from the hubs that everybody else is from, it's just like made––kind of

01:23:36.240 - 01:23:58.480

made us who we are, and made–made our flavors so unique. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today about a lot of your unique experiences, and I find that it'll be very illuminating, you know, for other Asians, Asian

01:23:58.480 - 01:24:03.370

Americans and, you know, just people in general. So, thank you so much. Hey man, thanks again.