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Today is March 31, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm interviewing Mr. Nguyen T. Nguyen on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive.

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This interview is part of the special collection "Racial justice and civic engagement". Thank you so much, Mr. Nguyen, for taking your time to document this very important time in history with the HAAA.

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And to start, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you came to Houston? My name is Nguyen T. Nguyen. I'm Vietnamese American.

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I came to the United States with my parents, part of the HO program sponsored by the United States. My father was the Prisoner of War. He fought for the South during the Vietnam War, and after the war, they captured him and

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put him to reeducation camp. And because of that, you know, American had a program to sponsor us to go to the United States. And that's how I came, able to come to Houston, Texas.

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Thank you for sharing that. And can you share with us some of the memories about your upbringing? My upbringing... I don't have a lot of relatives here, so growing up, I'm raised in the Hispanic and

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African American community. So my knowledge of their culture is more than my own culture. But you know, as I became an adult, you know I feel like there was an identity crisis that I have; so that's why

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when I reach out and learn as much as I can about the culture. I lived in the Alief community, and this is why I stay here because I know there's so much culture here that I want to learn; plus the good— the food

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is great. So, you know, I stay here because of that. And growing up my– my friends are pretty much international. I don't just hang out with a particular group of Asian crowd or anything like that.

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I hang out with everybody. Because I believe in multicultural society that we live in right now. So I embraced it. And can you share with us a little bit about the neighborhood you grew up in?

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And then the demographics of that neighborhood? Growing up, I lived in apartments, so we have... I have– I have like Vietnamese friends, but I primarily goes to...

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like, like in middle school I went to Drew Academy, we just basic primarily African American and Hispanic. My brother– my brother and I are like... and then some another like Korean kid...

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we were pretty much the only Asian kid in that school. So I, you know, I made friends with– with those type of different backgrounds. So that's where I grew up.

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That's how I went to public school and, and high school. Thank you for sharing. And can you share with us a little bit about how has your uh, background influenced your involvement in the more social and racial

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justice side of the movement? Well, based on my upbringing, you know, I'm always like advocating, you know, equal rights for everybody. Doesn't matter what nationality you are.

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I support everybody and their rights. And just experiencing, you know, the injustice of Asian hate crime, it's kind of like it haunts me, because... it's kind of like you know how you see a movie, and you just like, thinking, "Oh wow,

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that's crazy!" you know. I, you never think that, you'd be part of that movie, but now that you're part of the movie, it's very shocking to me. In fact, I'm furious, furious about these Asian hate crimes, because

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personally, you know, I lost all my grandparents already. I never got a chance to get to know them, because all of them was in Vietnam. So I cherish any moment that I have with my grandma,

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and you know, I appreciate anyone out there that is a grandma. Because they've gone through so much you know, like war; they have to do a lot of things, and that they age, at the end, and they should not be discriminated like this.

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So to me, this is personal. Yeah, that's very moving! And you also mentioned your "Grandma Project". There's this project that

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you're working on and you named it the "Grandma Project"— is that, if that's correct. And can you share with us a little bit about the stories? So the "Grandma Project" is based on my homage to my

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last surviving grandma. She passed away in 2014. I was shocked and very, very sad about it, because...

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it's kind of weighed, like, you know, you lose something that you really really want, and you can't do anything about it. So for me of creating this project is to pay my respect to her.

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And also... Yes, to share and then show people that know they really need to cherish their grandparents. My personal belief is that...

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and from my own culture, as well, like, I think there's right now, there's a huge disconnection between the grandparent generation and the grandkids generation, because there's no knowledge of transferring down from

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generation to generation. And there's a lot of value, as far as respect, mannerism, that we treat each other... it's all been diluted at this point. You know, in American society, once

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you become an adult, you get out of the house, your parents moves away, move away, and your parents even far, far, farther away. So there's a disconnect. And I think that's where, you know, people don't respect their grandparents as

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much as Asian American. So this project, to me, is very personal. It's kind of a way for me to do something to honor my grandparents, even though they're no longer alive. Yeah, that's

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very respectful. And thank you so much for bringing that, and I definitely resonate with you a lot on this. And since we're diving right into the topics of the hate crimes,

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especially what shook us all, like two weeks ago was the shooting at any one of the Atlanta Chinatown massage parlors. Would you like to comment a little bit about that, as well as,

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what do you define it to be as the authority in Atlanta, trying to define it not as a hate crime? I mean, this is just, that is in itself is just crazy, because that's, I think, right now, there's a lot of

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misplaced hatred that individual have, and they took on someone else... because, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like going to school, and then you got this bully— they don't like what's going on in their

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life, so they go out, and they terrorize people, just to make himself feel better. You know, it's kind of like that, that, that analogy of the crabs in the bucket. You know, they're miserable; so they, they grab people, they put them down to their level, so they can feel normal.

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And I think that's what's going on right now. You know, there's people that miserable, miserable, and they make an Asian American the scapegoat. Because we tend not to say anything, we just put our head down, quiet. You know, and anyone that's—

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that are, you know, shy or introverted, and don't have the voice to speak of themselves. They're the perfect target. Yeah, I totally agree that being less, kind of,

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loud as the other races sometimes can put us in a very huge disadvantage. And I also wonder, how would you compare the shooting of the Chinatown massage

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parlors in— two weeks ago, compared to last June, the death of George Floyd, in terms of how they contributed to the rise in conversations on racial justice, and how they were handled by the jour-, the

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media and the authorities? You're asking, how are they related? Yeah, how would you— yeah, how would you like to compare them? And how would you see if- if

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in any case, they're related or treated differently? I think it goes back to human understanding really, because I think, in any culture, in any nationality, you can be racist, including Asian American.

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If you– if you growing up without making friends with other culture, you're probably bound to racist. And I think– I think it contribute to a lot of misunderstanding. Because the thing in reality you know, we hate, sometimes like we– we hate the thing

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that we fear. And not understanding each other, and not... when you don't like, it's kind of like when you don't see a person as a human being, it's very easy to treat them like an animal.

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It's so easy. And with the incident going on, with both incidents, I think, you know, that's coming out of hate, that's coming out of misunderstanding, disregard, and disrespect for human life.

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And you know who— the victim is always being treated less than a human being. And I think that's kind of like, the, the, the nature of hatred.

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Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I'm also wondering relating to your own experience, or memories in growing up in– in Houston, have you at any point, experienced any of the hate crimes in– in

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person or to a friend or family, someone that is close to you? It's funny that you ask me that question. Because when I was little, like, there's people that discriminate me, they, you know, mock me because of my nationality.

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And then growing up, as an adult, I also experienced discrimination within the Vietnamese community. Like, it's more like, they discriminate

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me because of the company that I work for, even though I'm Vietnamese. And I think that, I think it's go back to you that you know how people, they have so sm— their mind is so small that they don't, like if

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you're not part of their "clique," I will call it, then, then you know, they don't care, they discriminate you, even if you're own Asian, as well. So I experienced that, personally, and that's all for...

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there's different kinds of discrimination as well, that's not just different color discriminate each other, that we have the same race, can discriminate each other, you know. Prime example, you know, we can be Asian, and

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Asian, like, for example, Chinese and Vietnamese or something, they can easily discriminate each other, each other based on their history, of war, or different way of thinking, you know. And that's already happening right now, in our own community.

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Yeah, totally. And I can definitely understand even like, within the same race, there's like, definitely clans and tribes or regions that people would have prejudice against. That's also you cannot, like

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distinguish it, that because they also stems from the same, same root. And I'm also wondering, what are some of the potential stereotypes that might have contributed to the anti-Asian hate crimes in your view?

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I think this go back to, you know, way, way when, you know, the first Chinese immigrant that came to United State. You know, they built, rail- rail- railroad. They don't have much rights, and they've been

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treated unfairly. And just like the African American, you know, they were treated unfairly, unfairly as well. So over time, you know, that stereotype contribute to, to hate, because, you know, we're taking away

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American jobs. Or, you know, during the World War II, they discriminate Japanese American because the Japanese were attacking Hawaii, Pearl Harbor. And, you know, that it not just happen now.

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But it every little thing at every little hate add up to anger; and anger can explode at any time. It's a time bomb. And

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that can, that can, you know, it's kind of like what we've all been saying, you know, "Hate is a virus." It can infect you from generation to generation. It's a virus. And you know, how do you

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cure anger? It's in– within all of us. So to do that, to only cure you can do is to have an understanding, to have a dialogue, to go out there and, and, and have a friend with different

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nationality. That's what I do with myself. I embrace different nationality. I, and I understand Chinese culture, African American, Hispanic, I have friends that are, you know, Croatian, Palestinian, Albanian, you name it,

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I have it. Yeah, thank you for sharing. And you brought up such an important topic about, like, racism stems from, like lack of understanding and knowledge. And definitely, I felt like what we do here, is also trying

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to openly communicate and break down that barrier of misunderstanding. So what would you think is important for kids to learn about themselves in times like this? And especially witnessing the violence on

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the news, on the media, what is the most important thing to teach the kids? I think this day and age, you know, we definitely need to teach kids... I think what they're missing is a positive outlet to— because everyone's

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angry. And especially kids, when they're frustrated with their home or their environment, they don't have an outlet, I think kids need to learn about emotional intelligence. They need to learn, maybe meditate, do

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some— doing something positive, you know. I think having a garden in school is very, very, very good for them, because they need to understand about nurturing, about respect one another, tapping into the

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ability to communicate with each other, learning about each other. And I think this positive outlet is, I think, it's good medication for them. Because without a positive outlet, they're going to use that that

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energy for negative things. Yeah, totally. And also, I understand that you joined the rally at the Discovery Green last, last Sunday to help document the moments where people are rallying and

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giving their voices to this very important movement. Could you tell us what you experienced and what you were trying to achieve out there in the rally? Um, my, my

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involvement in that movement was just for support. And I think with my camera, I can play a better support role in–in–in the rally. For me, you know, my, my purpose of being there is just to

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kind of like support the movement. And for me, personally, is–is go back to the "Grandma Project," I don't think any grandma out there should endure any kind of hate crime like that. So it's, you know, I just,

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I want to support the movement, and for that reason alone. Yeah, totally, like, imagining anyone's close ones to be attacked like that, it's unbearable to think. So, I'm also wondering, given this is so personal to you,

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and can you like share some of the like, the way that you use photography, like how do you choose to use photography to be your kind of weapon, or your tool, in your documentary in archiving history?

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So let me share my screen real quick, and then I can tell you more about it. So for me— excuse the little comment right here— so for me, I think, you know, especially for a movement like this, dealing with

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different nationality from African American to Asian American to Hispanic or to any destination out there that been discriminated— I think black and white photography play a very important role, because, in my

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belief, you know, if we just focus on a grandma, and a grandma doesn't— you know, if we just take out the her nationality, you know, we can have the, the feeling of what that grandma could be.

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Because for me, you know, love doesn't have color. And anybody can adopt Grandma, or, you know, a grandma adopt somebody to, to love; or you can love someone that's not within your nationality.

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So I use black and white photography in my "Grandma Project" to show, you know, there's a connection there that extend beyond nationality, showing their character, show— I call

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it the "wisdom line" instead of— you see this wrinkle, I call them "wisdom line." And just sharing their uniqueness. And it doesn't have to be Asian, I photograph

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everybody from different nationality as well. Because grandma has their own story to tell. Can I ask: how do you find all these people?

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And how did you approach them? Can you tell us a little bit about the process? The process is, you know, I meet them on my personal day to day life. And I just asked them to give

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photograph them; or sometime I just do it without them asking. Because I want to get their natural reaction. And for me, it's just this, kind of like, you know, in Asian culture, you know,

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when– when old person die, the son or daughter of that person would create like an altar for them. And this is kind of way

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for me to, to offer them something they can use for an altar. So what I do is know, I asked them, "Hey, you know, let me photograph your grandma. And I'll give you a free copy.

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You can print it any size you want. And as a way to honor your grandma, and is also with me as to honor my grandma, grandparents." And I think it's very important in this day and age and is to respect your elder,

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because we missing that, especially in United States. You know, and another thing too is that senior in United State don't live long as senior in, in, in Asia.

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Why is that? And I think that contribute to diet, and primarily because they're not being respected like in Asia, you know. In Asia, the senior are the pillar of the family, what they say goes, and you listen to them, you

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respect them. And they live longer, because you know, everyone loved them, everyone hang out with them. They talk to them, they don’t send them to you know, retirement home, all that. So it's I think this is a very unique subject.

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And I think having like, I think this this project that I'm creating right now is, I think it can be really good way to humanize everybody grandma. And, and when you think about it, you

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know, how if the person that trying to harm someone's grandma, if they can think about the person that they are about to attack as their own grandma, then they will stop. You know, if you can humanize that

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process, then it will stop. So I think art can be in any media, it can help contribute to the movement, and stop the violent for Asian crime.

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Yeah, that's so, such a powerful, and I'm amazed how the level of process you went into. And also just thinking about many of the people who were attacked, were

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actually like, were, very elderly, like, old women; and, and it's amazing to see like people seeing like elderly women, like grandma as the people they would choose to attack and those people...

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It's like, I would think this way, your project definitely has a very, very strong voice to exert, that, that, that... Yeah, important to respect our elderly, and seeing them

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as your own. So yeah, thank you, and kudos to the project that you're doing. Yeah, thank you. And I also want to mention, you know, majority's grandparents, they don't speak English well, so I think is all of us responsibility to speak on their

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behalf, and to protect them and to defend them. So it's an honor for me to do this. And to share what, what I believe is for everybody. Yeah, totally. And, and so behind the scenes with

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your subject, or the subject, as they're the grandmas, how do you approach them? Do you kind of chitchat with them to get to know their their stories, as well as working with them on this photography work?

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For me, I'm trying to get them as much comfortable as possible. I try to tell them, you know, "If this is your last photograph, how do you want to be photographed?" And I just asked them, you know, just to be themselves, and

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think of how they want to be remembered as a person, as a human being. And I tried to capture the essence of a person. And that's kind of like my, my, my process.

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And then the second process is for me to edit. And I think the edit part is very critical as well, because I have to kind of like enhancing their feature, their, their emotion, their personality, everything, every small

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little thing about their photographs. And to allow that, it's kind of like putting my spirit into that photograph. And then let that photograph come to life and allow the viewer to, to have their interpretation

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of that person. And without the color, I think it really add in the the emotional connection. By allow— because no people have their own emotion, and when you take out the color and allow people

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to interpret what it is using their own emotion, I think that's, that's a really good way to connect with people. Yeah, totally amazed that the way you were able to capture their eyes, and then the lighting, and that reflects on their wrinkles, or the "wisdom lines".

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How do you use these to tell a story, for example, like how did you compose the composition, and the picture, the framing? Sometimes it's just on luck, but a lot of time too is, is is about...

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I want to say, because you have to really have a connection with– with the subject, and for them– for them to feel comfortable. And communicating with them.

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And it's— I think together it was training as well, because it took me years to– to learn about photography using different lens. But all that is just technique. Ultimately it's— just it's

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between you and the subject, how do you communicate what you want out of them? How you make them feel comfortable and natural? And then capturing the right moment. Because they say, a picture is worth

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1000 words. So how do you, how do you put 1000 words in the picture? So you kind of like working backward. And then sometime I'm a little bit conflicted with with some of the photograph of the subject, because, you know, in one angle, they look good, and then in the other

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angle, they look good too. But how do you pick the right one for the audience to see that one picture? And sometimes I'm conflicted with that as well. And then kind of like picking what's photograph to say the

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most about this person, you know. So sometimes I do get conflicted picking the best photograph as well. And it's just a combination of every little thing that you learned to photography.

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Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I'm also really intrigued that you had subjects that are not Asian American who can be any other race; but with the black and white lens, you are

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kind of— it's not obvious what skin color they are. So do you have like a message behind that? Yeah. So let me go back to, let me go back to one of my photograph.

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This is one you haven't seen yet. Let me share this real quick. So, you know, this is one of my personal story. So this, this lady right

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here, her name is Diane Jolly. She's a really good friend of mine. And we're in the same organization called Rotary International together.

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And I asked her to be my subject, and she's agreed to it. She's about 80, some 85 around there. And she's actually one of my photographs in the exhibit for my "Grandma Project." And I invited her to the exhibit, and she brought a

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friend with her. She's also a friend of mine as well. And they came up very happy that they came because they, they want to support me. And then afterwards I, I realized something that I didn't

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realize, when I started this project 10 years ago. This project is called a "Grandma Project". But for me, personally, I didn't understand the meaning behind it when I started it, but for me personally was, it's–

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it's kind of like this thing where I was looking for someone who could call grandma. Because when I was growing up, I never had the opportunity to call anyone grandma. So having the very kind of like reaching out to

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find someone that– that you can call Grandma, I think that's very meaningful for me. So, after getting, after the show, you know, I had a talk with her and and then I thought, I realized, the reason,

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reason I was doing this project, and I, and I told her about it; and she said, you know, she's more than happy, happy to, to kind of adopt me to be her grandson, and allow me to call her grandma.

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So I'm very touched and moved and happy about that. So for me, it's not about nationality when it comes to grandma. It's about respecting the spirit of grandma. Wow, that's absolutely heartwarming and super touching.

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And now I am, I can't imagine how many grandmas you will be able to have now like after this project and, and linking that to your own experience is really, really fascinating.

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And I guess that's all of my questions. Do you have anything else you would like to add in regards to either your words for the anti-Asian hate crimes and the people out there, that any

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message you want to leave in a time capsule? I just think that we need to really understand each other as a citizen of United States. We are a melting pot. And in order to become a melting pot, we need to understand each other.

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We need to respect one another. We need to learn about each other. Because there's a lot of, there's a lot of thing we should learn about each other, you know.

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You can share culture with each other. You know, we have food, different foods here in Houston. We are the biggest city that contain a lot of different nationality. So in order for us to live together, we need to create a bridge and understanding each

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other. It's the only way for us to live. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, Mr. Nguyen. Thank you, Ann.