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Okay, so today is November 6, 2020. My name is Chelsey Wen, and I'm here interviewing Monique Truong for Houston Asian American Archive. So, to start off, can you tell me where and when you were

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born? Sure, hi. I was born in Saigon, on May 13, 1968. Mhm, and can you describe the community that you grew up in? So, is that question about the first six years of

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my life? Yeah, as much as you can remember, or you can just talk about how you moved when you were six. Okay. Well, I lived the first six, almost seven, years of my life in Vietnam.

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My family had a home in a city called Can Tho which is along the Mekong Delta. My father worked for Shell Oil,

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so the home we lived in was situated within the Shell Oil compound in Can Tho, which I understand no longer exists, nor

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the villa that we lived in, no longer exists as well. And then also, because my mother's side, the family is from Saigon, we also had a home in Saigon. I would describe my first six

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years of life in Vietnam as being from a economically privileged background. I remember growing up in a home that had multiple live-in help, people who cooked

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and cleaned, and–and I grew up mainly with a nanny. And my memories of my life back then was,

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was, pretty much kind of an idyllic childhood, even though the country was in the midst of a civil war.

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Like I said, my family came from an economically privileged background, so I went to school, I had play dates, I, my life was–was

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filled with privileges. And then, my—towards the end of the Vietnam War, basically on April 22 of 1975, my mom and I

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were flown out of Saigon via a cargo plane, belonged to the US military, along with other, along with other Vietnamese,

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who had connections with the US government. And this was the day after President Thieu had made his resignation speech, but

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certainly before anyone—not anyone, but most people, thought that the country would fall to North Vietnam. So again, that privilege extended to the way that we were able to leave Vietnam

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as refugees. My father stayed as part of the bargain of getting my mother and–and myself out safely, and he left

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by boat, the way that many Vietnamese refugees left, and he left via Can Tho as part of a, of an exodus that–that

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included members of the US consulate in Can Tho at the time, and his journey was very different from ours, and I—and

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my father eventually ended up at a relocation camp in Arkansas called Fort Chaffee. And my mother and I ended up in a different relocation camp called Camp Pendleton, which was in San

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Diego, or nearby San Diego, California. And, and I can tell you that my life was very different upon arriving here in the US, but we can talk about that more, later.

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So how was your experience at Camp Pendleton? How long did you stay there? I–I have tried to ask my mother many times for an exact number of weeks.

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And I—you may find this to be the case with–with other, sort of, refugees, is that sometimes it's very difficult to get our elders

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to speak about that time. I—and it's hard for me to understand whether she just didn't know, or blocked it out, or doesn't want to go there. And I speak about my mother, because my father has passed away.

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And I was actually going through some of the emails that he had sent to me prior to his–his passing. And I noted that, he wrote that it was,

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I think he said that he spent around five weeks total, in the, in the various sort of places that he ended up as a refugee. So that–that actually was not a very long stay,

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if it was indeed five weeks, or six weeks, and the lore within my family—and I–I say lore, because it's really, again, hard to pin down dates— is that

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my father was very eager to leave the relo-relocation camps. And he actually was very proactive about trying to reach out to Americans whom he knew, in order to get our family

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sponsored, and with—sponsorship was the only way that we would be able to leave the camps. So, the short answer is that it was,

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I would say, given what my father's written, five to six weeks. And then how was he able to find a sponsor to move you guys out? Well, this was someone whom he had worked with, in Can Tho. And

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this man lived in a very small town in North Carolina, called Boiling Springs, and he agreed. And again, the lore there is that my father reached out to many Americans whom he had worked

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with or had social ties with, and many of them would not commit to sponsoring our family. And I–I was always told it was because they, they too were

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shell-shocked at what had happened. And–and trying to sort of piece their life together. And—so there weren't actually a lot of options available to my father and my family—was this man

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who was kind enough to say yes. And that's how we ended up in Boiling Springs, North Carolina. So what was it like to grow up in Boiling Springs?

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Well, I—my family arrived in 1975, sometime during the summer, I was—I had turned seven years old in Camp Pendleton.

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And our family lived there from ‘75 to ’78, right, so I was seven to nine, seven to 10 years old. And the town

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was, and still is, incredibly small. And there were very, well, there were no Asian Americans in my elementary school, Boiling Springs Elementary School.

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And, and it was exceedingly difficult and an emotionally brutal place to grow up, because of the daily

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bullying that I went through, and I—you imagine that, for the first six years of my life, I'm living—I understand myself as being a little girl, you know.

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And then all of a sudden, it did feel like this, all of a sudden, I am in this little town where I go to school, and there was nothing about me that was normal, you know.

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Everything was a problem. And I had no way of understanding that, that my body was now something that was a problem, that somehow overnight, I

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was sort of, there was this sort of projection upon my body that I have yellow skin. What? And that my eyes were not shaped properly, that they were

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slits and slants, and that there was something wrong with my straight black hair. And that–that my name was something that, was something to be made fun of,

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and I think part of the problem with–with–with this context is that I didn't have—I–I wasn't growing up with siblings, so I had no other child who was like me.

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And there were no other Asian Americans in my school for me to even get a–a–a sort of a understanding of that, of what had happened, what–what the social landscape was, right? And my parents were very much,

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sort of—they were truly shell-shocked, they were desperately trying to get their life together. And it was very easy, and necessary, I would have to say, for them to just, kind of, let me be,

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and what they could tell me was that the children around me were not—they were, they were just ignorant of–of, they were just ignorant. They didn't know any better, you know?

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But that does not help a child. You can't just say that and let the child fend for herself, on a daily basis in this environment, and–and that's what

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happened to me. And I learned how to speak English there. I actually learned how to speak English before I even got to school, by watching television over the summer.

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I was watching Sesame Street, so—and I had come over during that magical age, when it was still possible to learn a language as if you were drinking water. You know, it was–it was–it was–it

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was kind of—I just absorbed. And that–that was a really good thing because once I got to school, there were certainly no English as a Second Language courses there; they

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never had any foreigners? So, there were certain—I remember there were certain sounds in the English language that I was still unable to master.

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Like the “th” sound of “t-h,” right? I'm sure there were others. And I was placed into a class that was for children with speech impediments.

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So, to—so I…I was, that is, again, just a very early and brutalizing example of what it meant to be

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a foreigner and “other” within that academic environment? Yeah. So, so that's where, that's where I grew up.

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And–and it was also where I decided that I wasn't gonna develop a Southern accent. I know that seems kind of unusual for a child of

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that age. But I knew from watching television, that not everyone spoke with a Southern accent. And there was something in me that said, I would not sound like the people around me. And it was a decision.

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It wasn't, it wasn't happenstance. And I think that has to do with the brutality that I experienced there. So do you think that your early childhood experiences have you made you a

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stronger person? It made me who I am today. Ah…does that mean I'm a stronger person than if I had grown up in an

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environment as a child where, I—where I could just simply be a child, I don't know. I don't believe in that narrative, that–that hardship

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and abuse creates a stronger human being. It cr—it dev—creates a human being that learns how to survive. But that comes with it, I think, a lot

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of psychological issues, a lot of mental health issues, that, communities such as my own, among the Vietnamese Americans, I feel that we

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are just beginning to talk about that kind of trauma, and the mental health implications of it. And what's passed down from generation to generation. So, as you grew up, were you able to find a community of Asian Americans?

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Well, after my family left Boiling Springs, we moved to another very small town, not as small, not as uh…homogenous in terms of race.

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And that was in Centerville, Ohio. And that's where I went to middle school. And then after that, from the time that I started high school, which was from ‘82 to ‘86,

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my family was in Houston, Texas, and Houston—and to be specific, we were in southwest Houston, in an area called Alief. And even then, it was certainly much more racially

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diverse than any other place that I had been. And the high school had, I really don't know the exact number, but to me, it felt like a

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significant number of Asian Americans, Vietnamese American, Chinese American, Korean American, so on, South Asians. But I have to say that by the time I got to high school,

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and to Houston, I had already developed a sense of myself as not being part of any group. Because I didn't belong for so long, that it

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was actually hard for me to then make real social connections and ties with my fellow Vietnamese American students who had—it felt like many of them had grown up in Houston, gone to school together,

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had this whole kind of network already. And, and the way that I defined myself was not as an Asian American, or as a Vietnamese American, at that point, was simply as being some sort of freak.

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And–and, yeah, so that's how I sort of navigated through high school. I listened to alternative music, I–I dressed differently, my hair was cut different than, than the folks

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around me. I was in a small group of other freaks. And that's how I understood myself. So how would you say your parents raised you, and what expectations they had

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for you? Um…I think my parents expected of me what I think many Vietnamese Americans, or

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refugee parents expected of their children, wh-which is obedience. And–and–and achieving in school, being

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academically successful. And I was exactly that child until I hit high school. I was still academically

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achieving, but I was no longer obedient. I didn't look like the other, the other students or the, or the children of their friends, and–and

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I think that was, that was disconcerting and strange for them. But I—the only thing that allowed me to, to survive, and for them to survive with

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me, was the fact that I still keep my grades extremely high. Yeah, but I–I stopped being that incredibly obedient child.

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So do you have any siblings? Yes, I do and the stories—it's not an easy... it's not an easy answer.

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So, I—I have an older half sibling, half-sister, and a younger sister. My older sister

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is half Swiss-French, and half Vietnamese. And she grew up in Switzerland with her mother, who was my father’s first wife. And my younger sister was

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born in Ohio. And there's an 11 years age difference between us. Yeah. So how was your relationship with your younger sister growing up? Well, I didn't really grow up with her.

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I mean, the first years of her life certainly, but by—I really missed her–her—the development of her as–as a, like a–a person with a personality, because I was

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already in college by then. So, my relationship with her was, was... almost nonexistent for many years. And she, she went to the same high school I did in Houston,

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we even have some of the same—we had some of the same teachers, and they, and—but she had a very different growing up experience than I did. And so that also kind

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of divided us, or kept us, from becoming very close. And, and we are still very different today. So, how did you decide what you wanted to study in college?

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Well, I, I was a Literature major at Yale. And one of the things to keep in mind is that there was also

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an English major at Yale. And it was—the, the requirements were very different. English at Yale, at that—might still be, I'm not sure, but then, it was very much about

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having a foundation in the literature of England. And, and a literature major allowed you to do more theory, and it also allowed you to

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take more classes in international literature. And that's–that's what interested me. I've—I'm—I have been an avid reader since coming—well, even before coming

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to the US, I was an avid reader, and, and it certainly wasn't what my parents had hoped for, but I think by that point, they were just sort of

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happy that I had gotten into an Ivy League school. Because to them, that meant I had achieved something that would put me towards a road to financial stability.

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How I was going to do that, they weren't quite sure with a Literature degree, and I wasn't sure either. So when you were at Yale, did you also feel as you did in high school, kind of like an outsider, or you said, like a freak?

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Yes, but there were more of me. There were more freaks. And…and that was incredibly comforting.

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But I'll tell you that also at Yale was where I developed an understanding of my identity as an Asian American, and as a Vietnamese American.

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And that came about by simply—by taking Asian American Studies classes. It was the first time that I had…I had studied some of the,

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just—the history of Asians within the United States, and so much of it is painful. And so much of it is shocking in terms of our treatment.

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And it–it really was sort of the beginning of my political consciousness. I wasn't just taking Asian American, Asian American Studies classes, I was taking African

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American Literature courses, I was taking classes that put me into direct contact with all of the history of the United States that hadn't been taught to me in high school.

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So is any of that—did any of that contribute to you deciding to go into law? Yes. I know exactly when I–I understood that the law was–was a

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necessary path, which was when I studied the history of the Japanese American internment during World War II; it was shocking to me that American citizens could be

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rounded up, their property could be taken away, and treated like the enemy. And, yeah, it, it’s—and I think the thought process, then, was

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that I needed to make sure that I had a way to protect myself, my family, my community. So did you feel like you were able to do that?

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With my law degree? Well, this is what I learned in law school. That what is—that there is a difference between what is legal, and what is just.

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And they're not necessarily the same thing. So what does that mean? It means that the law, alone, is not going to be enough. That a community

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organizing, that…that a kind of, there has to also be political strength, economic strength, strength of representation; it's a whole package.

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The law alone is not going to save us. I also learned in law school that…that I actually wasn't

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that interested in the law. And I learned that during the first, probably the first week or two. And I say that because I've always been a really—I love to study.

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I love learning. And what was happening in my law school class, I went to Columbia Law, city of New York, was that I–I did not

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think that what I was being taught was to think that critically, it was, it wasn't—I wasn't surrounded by people who were necessarily

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curious, not necessarily that intelligent. They were very good students. They got very high scores on their LSATs.

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They did all the reading. But that's not the same as being an intelligent, curious, creative thinker. And I didn't want to be surrounded by people like that

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for the rest of my life. Mhm. So how long did you continue practicing law or being in law school? Well, I stayed in law school.

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I graduated, I–I passed the New York Bar, I practiced law full-time for three and a half years, and another half year off and on as a temp lawyer, a part time lawyer—this

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was already when I was starting to work on my first novel. I stayed in law school because of something that I think many refugees and immigrants from everywhere can

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relate to, which is our families really never taught us to quit, even when to quit was probably a healthier thing to do. We were taught how to endure,

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and that's what I did, I endured my three years of law school, I endured practicing law. I–I started out as a litigator in a large law firm in New York.

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And I did it basically until my, until I could tell that my body was starting to give out, and my emotional health was starting to give out. When I say my body, I really

00:36:05.640 - 00:36:22.120

mean that. I was developing a twitch in my eyelid because of the stress; I was developing a–a frozen shoulder where one side would lift up and wouldn't go back down. I mean, I was, I was a young person,

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these things should not be happening. I looked much older than my age. And then when I say about my emotional health, I—by the time that I finally stopped

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practicing, I was crying every single day as I commuted to my firm, I’d get on the subway, cry, and cry all the way to the office where I would stop crying, because you don't cry in the office.

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So I thought, if I continue this, I wasn't gonna be around, I would have to find some exit. And I didn't think it was going to be a healthy

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way, whatever that exit was gonna be. Yeah. So, do you think the stress was the rigor of the job? Or you also realized that you didn't, it wasn't

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somewhere you wanted to be? Well, I'll tell you that being a young associate at a large law firm in the city of New York is actually not that difficult.

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If you've gone through law school, if you made it this far, you can do it. It's not difficult, because it's a lot of grunt work. It's not intellectual work; you're basically making sure copies

00:37:57.760 - 00:38:16.450

have the right number of pages. You're making sure there's no typo. You're basically the last set of eyes on a document. So in that

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sense, no, the–the work wasn't hard. And even when I was writing a memo, analyzing a particular problem, that also wasn't hard.

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But what was hard was the fact that I was surrounded by people who thought that it was part of the profession to brutalize other people, to treat people as if they were dirt.

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And it's a very hierarchical work environment. And the way that they treated support staff was even worse. Secretaries, paralegals, the people who actually did the

00:39:12.800 - 00:39:28.370

photocopying, as if these people were not humans. And the way that they treated young associates was very much like, “You are lucky to be here, you are lucky to have this job,”

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you know. And um… sure, but I also earned it, I earned the right to be in that position. And I was—if I ever had

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a, if I—there were moments where I would talk to older associates or more senior associates, or about what was going on, and of course, I mean the–the clear response was that, “It's–it's a hazing process, it's a hazing

00:40:02.910 - 00:40:18.690

process, and also, that you just have to develop a thicker skin.” You know? And I always thought about that, I thought, no, I–I don't want to develop the kind of skin where

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that kind of abuse is okay. I've already gone through that abuse as a child, in Boiling Springs, that kind of bullying behavior. No, again, I–I–I

00:40:35.210 - 00:40:55.980

could not withstand that kind of work environment, and ethos. So can you describe how you began to transition out of law and into writing? Sure.

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One of the first things I did when I moved to New York, was that I knew that there was a literary arts organization here called the Asian American Writers’ Workshop. And I heard about it when I

00:41:15.270 - 00:41:31.840

was in college. So whe-when I came to New York to go to law school, I–I searched them out; they were located then in the East Village on St.

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Mark’s Place, in a sub-sub-basement, underneath a Gap. And it was, I remember walking in there, and there were like this, like a couple of very tall bookcases

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towards the front; they sold books. But they were also a place for you to come and just read the books if you'd like, they also held creative writing workshops. They also had readings there, it

00:42:05.940 - 00:42:20.400

was just sort of more of a community center than anything. And I mentioned those–those bookshelves, because that was pretty

00:42:20.400 - 00:42:37.720

much the extent of Asian American literature back then, was what could fit in those bookshelves. They didn't need more than two tall bookshelves. And there were—there was no

00:42:37.720 - 00:42:54.480

work by Vietnamese Americans. But it, it, it was an incredibly important place for me, because I started to meet and to

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understand what it—what the life, or the beginning paths of a literary life could be, you know? I met

00:43:10.280 - 00:43:27.490

people who had gone and gotten their MFA in fiction or poetry, and some people have—had not, but still were starting to publish. And what was clear was that they were

00:43:28.260 - 00:43:43.290

all much happier. Just there was a lot of joy in their lives, it doesn't mean that their life was–was easier in any other way. I mean, there’s still rent

00:43:43.320 - 00:44:01.520

to be paid, there was still student loans to be paid, all that. But they were still able to find a lot of joy. And I thought to myself, that this is what I want to do. I want to have some joy in my life,

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and I started volunteering for them. I started to, I—the first thing I did was I helped to co-edit an

00:44:16.410 - 00:44:31.180

anthology of Vietnamese American poetry and prose, and that was called Watermark, and that was published in ‘97. And then I–I continued to

00:44:31.530 - 00:44:47.710

be their fiction editor for their literary journal that comes out of there. And, and then, it was really the–the–the

00:44:47.950 - 00:45:05.180

transition really came when I–I wrote something new for the anthology that I was co-editing. I wanted to submit something, and, and

00:45:05.180 - 00:45:19.530

so I took advantage of the fact that I had unlimited—yeah, was pretty much unlimited sick days at the law firm. No one took the sick days, but I

00:45:19.530 - 00:45:33.240

did. I took I think, three days, sick days. And I wrote a short story. And that short story became the second chapter of–of my first novel.

00:45:34.220 - 00:45:53.590

And that kind of, it—that started everything, it–it kind of, it–it redirected my, my goals in life. And the goal became finding a way, finding a time, finding the financial

00:45:53.690 - 00:46:08.560

means to be able to finish that book, and that freed me. It didn't free me immediately, but it just, it redirected my goals.

00:46:10.770 - 00:46:32.590

Mhm. So how did your parents feel about your decision? You know, what I started to do, I think by the time that I was practicing law, so that

00:46:32.590 - 00:46:53.170

was in ‘95, was that I was actually very clear with my mother and father, that it…it was not something that, the profession was not, was not

00:46:53.310 - 00:47:12.100

what I wanted out of life, that, like I've–I’ve just said to you that it was brutal. It was brutal, and it–it brought nothing to me, except a lot of grief. And I think that it, that was sort of the

00:47:12.100 - 00:47:23.810

necessary groundwork. I didn't spring it on them all at once, is what I'm trying to say, that I–I shared with them how unhappy it was making me, so

00:47:27.280 - 00:47:45.840

by the time I decided to leave the law, I also should say that by the time I left the law, I had a book contract. So at least, for them, it felt like, well, she

00:47:47.170 - 00:48:09.040

has a temporary income stream. I think one of the very…yeah, I–I think it's very difficult for, for

00:48:11.040 - 00:48:25.380

my parents, many refugee parents, to sort of wrap their heads around the instability of the arts as a profession. And, and that,

00:48:25.770 - 00:48:42.440

I think, is something that I try to tell and share with students and younger folks who tell me that their parents are dead set upon on them, going into the

00:48:42.600 - 00:48:58.440

arts is, is try to remember that for the parents it’s not necessarily about amassing this huge wealth, or,

00:49:00.370 - 00:49:20.600

or—it's really about a sense of stability, and how they want that for their children, and it comes out of fear. And wanting to keep their children safe. And it’s not—it doesn't come, I do not believe, at least with refugees’ parents,

00:49:20.600 - 00:49:37.560

that it comes out of greed; it’s not about how large your house is, how–how fancy your car is, it's about a sense of stability, and that's what they want for you. And it is,

00:49:40.420 - 00:49:56.760

it requires you to–to remind them in turn that, that part of the reason, right, that they came to the United States was so that

00:49:58.130 - 00:50:22.360

you would have an opportunity to live a full life. And part of living a full life is joy and happiness. And to share with them what it means to you to be able to practice whatever discipline

00:50:22.360 - 00:50:39.110

it is that you're interested in, writing, dancing, acting, directing, whatever it may be, to really try to communicate to your parents the full sort of joy of it for you.

00:50:40.090 - 00:50:52.520

And they may still not be happy. But I think they'll be more willing to accept your decisions.

00:50:54.660 - 00:51:12.920

Mhm. So have you mentored a lot of students in this way? Ihave taught on the college level. It's not a, it's not part of my

00:51:13.060 - 00:51:32.410

yearly sort of life, I've–I've taught three times, twice on the undergraduate level, once at Princeton, one at Baruch College, which is part of the City University of New York, and most recently, I taught

00:51:32.500 - 00:51:50.190

at Columbia, in the MFA program. And I—and also, in terms of mentoring, yes. In those classes, I always have students, mainly

00:51:56.700 - 00:52:14.980

Asian American students who–who see me, and see me as an example of–of a, of–of a career path that they would like to pursue. And they reach out to me and they tell me about how their

00:52:14.980 - 00:52:30.440

parents want them to go to law school. And, but I also have students from other immigrant backgrounds who feel the same set of constraints

00:52:30.440 - 00:52:45.930

from their parents. So yes, I've mentored students in that way. I've also mentored students through—not my students, but young folks from,

00:52:46.920 - 00:53:03.410

who are involved in the Asian American Writers’ Workshop in another Asian American literary–literary arts organization that's called Kundiman, that's here in New York. So,

00:53:03.980 - 00:53:24.390

yes, I–I kind of feel that that is part of my, my responsibility as a literary citizen and as an Asian American, to–to at least listen,

00:53:25.390 - 00:53:41.920

I can't always help them beyond that, but I think it is really important to have one, an example, and two, someone who's willing to hear your, your trials and

00:53:41.920 - 00:53:56.540

tribulation, you know? But I’ll have to tell you that one of my–my sort of, kind of, one of the most meaningful sort of mentorship I–I have

00:53:56.640 - 00:54:10.640

been involved in is of a–a, he was a Chinese American student at Princeton. His parents wanted him to go to law school very, very badly.

00:54:10.910 - 00:54:24.940

He wanted to go to graphic design school. And in this instance, I was able to help him, and the way that I did it was that he needed a

00:54:25.030 - 00:54:39.770

way to pay for his–his graduate work in graphic design. And he was applying for a number of very prestigious, difficult to receive scholarships.

00:54:41.870 - 00:54:57.770

And I felt that my understanding of what it's–it's like for someone in his position allowed me to write a letter that was very persuasive, and he got one of those scholarship, it was the Soros Fellowship,

00:54:58.610 - 00:55:18.210

and now he co-owns his own graphic design firm in Brooklyn. And, and it was, that made me feel like I could really, that there was a purpose for me being in the

00:55:18.210 - 00:55:37.680

classroom, if it was simply just to–to help him find the means to pay for his schooling. So have you had any mentors for yourself throughout your career? I have, I have.

00:55:38.010 - 00:55:52.930

And it was really through the, through the Asian American Writers’ Workshop that I met Asian American women writers, who were just,

00:55:55.620 - 00:56:14.550

just really—this is how I–I—this is how I know how important it is just simply to see an example of what's possible. And then—and one of them is–is I mean,

00:56:15.880 - 00:56:35.880

Jessica Hagedorn, who's Filipina American, and she lives in New York, I read her before I ever met her. And now I consider her a friend. And I have gone back to her

00:56:37.220 - 00:56:54.680

time and time again, not only for things like recommendation letters, but for somebody who like, for…the–the–the publishing

00:57:00.590 - 00:57:18.080

world is–is–is small, and it's also difficult to navigate, you know? And you need someone who's gone through it to be able to say to you, “This is what your publicist should be doing

00:57:18.150 - 00:57:34.860

for you, this is what your editor needs to be doing for you, this is what your agent should be doing for you.” And writers like Jessica, who have really given me that kind of, that–that kind of knowledge, right?

00:57:35.490 - 00:57:54.980

Yeah. So can you describe the process of writing your first book? How was that for you? Sure. Well, I started it, like I said, as a short story,

00:57:57.610 - 00:58:14.290

written while I was still practicing law, and then it took, from that point, five years until it came out. And it's because I wasn't able to write full-time immediately. I would

00:58:17.240 - 00:58:36.860

apply for fellowships that would allow me to have enough to live for—and to pay my loans for maybe one or two months, and I would try to get a

00:58:37.390 - 00:58:52.080

leave of absence from my law firm in order to do that, which I did, and I would quit my job at law firms, and–and before I started at the new

00:58:52.080 - 00:59:13.510

one, I would use that gap to work on the book. But that–that first novel, in many ways, was, was kind of entirely unexpected,

00:59:15.970 - 00:59:34.660

unexpected in terms of the fact that, one, anyone—that a publishing house purchased it, that it came out and became a best seller, that–that it won awards, and that—and I think more

00:59:34.660 - 00:59:52.540

importantly to me, that it continues to be taught, on the college level, mainly. But I, I think if—generally

00:59:52.540 - 01:00:05.240

sort of speaking, more on–on—in terms of writerly terms, what I have come to understand about the first novel is,

01:00:11.080 - 01:00:31.680

it—you save up everything that you've ever wanted to say. And it goes into that first novel, right. And there–there is sort of a–a kind of, almost a magical

01:00:31.680 - 01:00:52.510

experience with it, because the voice for it came to me very fully formed. And it's almost like I–I heard the voice. I also have come to understand that the

01:00:52.510 - 01:01:08.720

way that the publishing industry works, they love the first novel, they love the debut novelist. So, and I think perhaps because

01:01:11.120 - 01:01:29.180

I–I—given my biography, that I am a Vietnamese American, a former refugee, perhaps the publishing industry, and then also then the press, didn't expect

01:01:30.060 - 01:01:48.430

what, what was in that novel, that it wasn't situated in the context of the Vietnam War. And I think that–that gave it a certain distinction,

01:01:48.950 - 01:02:06.180

and made it stand out at that time. And it—what—I didn't do that because I didn't think that there was something to be said about the Vietnam War or the refugee experience.

01:02:07.750 - 01:02:26.270

I did it more so, because the subject matter really appealed to me, which is the live-in cook for Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas. A

01:02:26.340 - 01:02:44.240

young gay Vietnamese man living in Paris in the late 20s, early 30s. It—I love cooking, I love to eat, I love writing about what–what

01:02:46.970 - 01:03:04.620

all that can mean to a person. So that was, that was exciting to me. And then I also, I think, really wanted this–this kind of, a–a–a kind of I–I–I

01:03:06.200 - 01:03:22.610

wanted my first foray into writing a novel to–to really kind of remind readers that the Vietnam War doesn't define Vietnam, that our history

01:03:23.930 - 01:03:37.570

is far longer and far more complicated, and–and we have dealt with colonizers of many, from many countries, and

01:03:40.810 - 01:04:05.350

that appealed to me too, so, yeah. So, you said the main character is a gay man, do you have a connection to the gay community? I—well, besides the fact that I had—I grew up with many

01:04:08.900 - 01:04:26.790

LGBTQ friends, no. No, I am not LGBTQ identified. I—this is part of the—what I was saying about

01:04:27.060 - 01:04:44.860

how that voice came to me fully formed. I should back up and just say that Alice B. Toklas, who was Gertrude Stein's lover of many years, wrote a cookbook, and was called the Alice B.

01:04:45.020 - 01:05:01.610

Toklas Cook Book.And in it, there's a chapter that's called “Servants in France.” And she writes about, quote unquote, “Indo-Chinese” men who worked for them as live-in cooks.

01:05:02.360 - 01:05:20.610

And that's—so that's, that was the seed, right, for me. Did she mention that–that these men were gay, straight, no. But when I sat down and I thought about a—the

01:05:22.560 - 01:05:46.090

character, that's how the character came to me, as a gay man. It, it’s…it’s–it’s one of these decisions that looking

01:05:46.090 - 01:05:58.560

back, I can't believe that I just went with it. You know that I–I said, oh okay, fine. I'm going to write in the first-person voice of a

01:05:58.560 - 01:06:16.340

gay man. But I did, possibly because I actually didn't go to an MFA program. I think I would have been more scared to do it because through the–the

01:06:16.970 - 01:06:33.740

workshopping process, now that I've seen it firsthand on the other side, as the instructor, when you have, I mean, pun intended, so many cooks, right? Get-getting all

01:06:33.740 - 01:06:48.950

these feedback from other people, I think that would have really—and–and I think, certainly some of that feedback would have been, how dare you? Can you do it?

01:06:49.040 - 01:07:06.900

Why are you doing this? All the things that I—yeah, you should ask. But when you're writing it, I don't think you should ask it yet. Right? Before you publish it, yes, you're gonna ask those questions of yourself.

01:07:07.640 - 01:07:21.130

And you're going to have to have a response because readers will ask, and they still do, like, “Why did you write in the voice of a gay man?” And I always give them a two-part answer.

01:07:21.350 - 01:07:35.870

One is what I've told you, which is that's how the voice came to me. Along with his sense of humor, his, everything about him came to me fully formed. The second part of

01:07:35.870 - 01:07:52.040

that answer is as I was working on that novel, it became clear to me, that thank goodness he came to me as a gay man. And I'll—and just, briefly, I—if

01:07:54.300 - 01:08:13.720

I had made that character a straight man, working within the household of—within a lesbian household, there would have to be a scene where he recognizes the love between the two women.

01:08:15.130 - 01:08:33.540

As a straight man, he would react to it, and how would he react to it, given the fact of the era? His culture, his, his country of origin, all that. It would, I think, undoubtedly have

01:08:33.840 - 01:08:49.660

been a moment of shock, a moment of, what is this that I'm witnessing. I didn't have to write that scene. Because that's not how my character reacted to the love between these two women.

01:08:50.110 - 01:09:06.430

He recognized it as being part of... his identity, and it allows me to, I think, to write a more complicated, complex

01:09:06.600 - 01:09:24.040

novel, without that scene of shock, and a scene of recognition instead. So do you have a writing process? Like a time or place?

01:09:24.920 - 01:09:40.190

Hmm, yeah, it's–it’s, it has changed over the years. Most recently, I had been writing at a shared sort

01:09:40.190 - 01:09:56.540

of writer's studio that's part of the Center for Fiction, which is in Brooklyn, around a 40 minute walk from where I live. And I mentioned the walk because that is really part of the process.

01:09:57.880 - 01:10:14.970

Because I do think that there is—there has to be a transition process between your everyday life and your everyday being, right, the person who cleans the kitchen, cleans the bathroom, cooks for

01:10:14.970 - 01:10:24.500

meals, that sort of thing. And the person who is the creator, the writer, the imaginative person. That person

01:10:29.380 - 01:10:38.900

operates and thinks differently; they have to. And so that walk was always that transition, where I would put on my headphones, I would listen to music.

01:10:39.640 - 01:10:58.620

And–and it was, it was almost like a–a kind of a walking, kind of meditation. That brought me to this writing space. Before I was writing there, I had a different writing space nearby, which

01:10:58.670 - 01:11:14.960

was in a very large shared loft as well, with, with other women, only women. And that was a fantastic writing space. It's called Powderkeg.

01:11:16.570 - 01:11:38.390

Mira Jacob wrote there, Susan Choi, other Asian Americans—not only Asian Americans, but all sorts of Brooklyn women. Yeah, I—it, it's—I often tell

01:11:38.390 - 01:11:53.150

young writers as well, that they need to have a dedicated space, the room of one’s own, basically. And that's a very hard thing to do in the city of New York, to have a

01:11:53.220 - 01:12:09.290

dedicated space, so, so, that has been my most recent process. Before then, my dedicated space was often to travel

01:12:09.660 - 01:12:27.960

to other places to write, most often to–to an artist residency somewhere, and it would be a very concentrated amount of time, often a month, can be as long as almost three months.

01:12:30.350 - 01:12:48.670

And, again, it's–it’s that kind of transition and also disconnect from what I consider my everyday life and my creative life. Yes. So, where do you find

01:12:48.710 - 01:13:07.320

inspiration for your writing? Hmm. Well, all the novels are different, but certainly the first novel, The Book of Salt, is,

01:13:09.470 - 01:13:24.530

and the most recent novel, The Sweetest Fruits,they’re historical novels, right? So the seeds for them come from, from history. But

01:13:26.380 - 01:13:44.040

I think that it begins with a question. Begins with me reading something that seems to be not fully documented, not fully there, in what—in the archives, right?

01:13:44.460 - 01:14:00.940

So, let's say with The Book of Salt,Alice Toklas wrote very briefly about these men, but she wrote very evocatively of them.

01:14:02.010 - 01:14:20.590

And I wanted to know how they got there. What did they see in that household? And that–that kind of question is–is what begins the

01:14:20.590 - 01:14:36.570

process, and usually then, it is followed by research attempting to answer that, in what has been documented. And what I–I

01:14:37.710 - 01:14:52.590

tend to focus on the narratives, or on the—on–on the characters, on–on the sliver of history that has very few documented

01:14:55.190 - 01:15:10.770

resources. And then I try to fill in the–the spaces between the facts.

01:15:12.230 - 01:15:33.170

And, and I–I think it's—I mean, hopefully it should be clear that the reason why

01:15:33.440 - 01:15:52.820

these–these stories like of a–of a laborer, a–a young man who comes to Paris, the reason why he's not documented is because he couldn't leave, there

01:15:55.750 - 01:16:14.370

were no letters perhaps that were left behind, no one thought he was relevant in history, he—except that he happened to have worked for one of the most iconic American couples living in Paris

01:16:14.620 - 01:16:29.760

at the time. Literary names, and he was just mentioned in passing, but there's so much more. And that is, that pattern has certainly—is in

01:16:30.910 - 01:16:47.250

place for–for my most recent novel, which is called The Sweetest Fruits,and it's about the women who are, sort of, they exist in the periphery

01:16:47.900 - 01:17:05.260

of a very well known, very well documented writer named Lafcadio Hearn, who lived from 1850 to 1904. But the women around his life were–were

01:17:06.230 - 01:17:17.740

not as well documented. They were often dismissed by his biographers as being, as being illiterate.

01:17:19.480 - 01:17:36.370

These are his wives, he had two wives. I write in their voices, his mother. I just... I wanted to think about them and think

01:17:36.370 - 01:17:56.120

about them in a way that gave them agency that didn't dismiss them outright. So do you think this concept of telling undocumented

01:17:57.760 - 01:18:14.020

people’s stories, do you think it's like a common thread in your writing? Yeah, certainly. It's a–it's a process that's very much about reclaiming

01:18:17.920 - 01:18:32.560

these voices. I think it, but of course, it's–it's a process that can really—can

01:18:36.390 - 01:18:50.940

only often be achieved through fiction. Because if I was a historian, there would be no way for me to—I would be

01:18:51.120 - 01:19:10.480

necessarily reliant on what is in the archives. But if you're writing, as in my case about, let's say, the first wife of Lafcadio Hearn, she was an African

01:19:10.480 - 01:19:28.350

American woman; she was born into slavery, she was—did not have access to the written word. She could not leave letters behind the way that he did.

01:19:29.140 - 01:19:44.250

She could not leave a diary. The only representation of her voice that I had was from a newspaper article that Hearn wrote

01:19:44.660 - 01:20:03.540

about her, didn't even identify her by name, but spoke about her as being a–a very good storyteller, and that she–she was a ghost seer, and how

01:20:03.540 - 01:20:20.080

she would tell these incredibly atmospheric stories. And he wrote it in her voice, or in his, kind of, take on

01:20:20.080 - 01:20:38.960

her voice. And... I mentioned her because she's an example of someone who was written out of his biography and therefore history all together.

01:20:42.410 - 01:20:57.850

His first biographer refused to acknowledge that he had a relationship, or a marriage, with someone named Alethea Foley, even though she knew. Her—his first

01:20:57.850 - 01:21:10.880

biographer was a woman, a white woman. And he—and she wrote out Alethea. And for years after that, other biographers wrote Alethea out of history.

01:21:12.330 - 01:21:31.840

So yes, I do feel like I am, I am— my project is to reach back, and–and say, “I want to hear your story, Alethea,”

01:21:33.340 - 01:21:50.940

you know. And what I produce is fiction; I can’t give you Alethea, but this is what we have. Yeah. Mhm. So do you think that your identity, your

01:21:51.100 - 01:22:06.160

personal identity, is reflected in your writing as well? Oh, absolutely. Everything I write is through the lens of—through an Asian American lens, through a refu-refugee lens.

01:22:06.560 - 01:22:23.920

So even when I write a book, like the most recent one, that has no Vietnamese, or Vietnamese American character in it, I consider it very much a Vietnamese American work, very much an

01:22:23.960 - 01:22:42.190

Asian American work. Because those experiences have shaped me, have shaped m-my—everything about me. And, and

01:22:46.250 - 01:23:08.480

with that said, though, let's acknowledge that American publishing is still hesitant to–to, I don't know, I don't

01:23:10.880 - 01:23:26.770

know if the word is hesitant. Maybe the word is, they don't know what to do with works like mine. When I first had the idea for this novel, maybe, gosh, almost

01:23:26.920 - 01:23:40.140

10 years ago, my literary agent at that time said to me that she wouldn't be able to sell it, because I didn't have a Vietnamese or a Vietnamese American character in it.

01:23:40.630 - 01:23:54.390

So no one's going to buy it. And yeah, and it's out in the world, someone did buy it,

01:23:57.980 - 01:24:17.660

but really, if–if your project, if–if your goal in life is to sell books, you probably wouldn't have wanted to write the book I wrote, and–and try to find readers for it in

01:24:17.660 - 01:24:38.430

this moment in time, because it doesn't speak to... how do I put it? There has been a—the idea of voices, literary

01:24:38.460 - 01:24:47.660

voices, quote unquote, staying within their lanes. You know what that means, right? Which means write about your

01:24:47.860 - 01:25:17.510

own experience. Write about your own race or ethnicity…It's that kind of set—that kind of setting, that

01:25:17.510 - 01:25:33.840

kind of drawing borders within our imagination, I cannot get behind that project. I,

01:25:39.190 - 01:25:55.120

I think it's—with that said, it's not the same as me saying, you have the right to write anything you'd like, and not take responsibility for it because it's, it's a work of the imagination, or

01:25:55.120 - 01:26:08.640

it's a work of fiction. Of course. Of course, words matter, representation matters, narrative matters, and some are incredibly hurtful and racist,

01:26:10.380 - 01:26:26.980

and–and just simply, poorly written. But that's–that's–that's the risk you take as a writer; if you are an artist, and you're writing, you're

01:26:27.020 - 01:26:47.600

always going to take the risk of just being not—the risk of failure. Right? You're gonna fail in many ways. But I won’t—I can never get behind

01:26:47.980 - 01:27:20.740

the advice, or the point of view, that shows that there are lanes for your creativity. So, so do you think that being labeled as an Asian American writer—like, what are the specific

01:27:21.310 - 01:27:34.640

expectations that are placed on you, I guess? Yeah, that's–that's an excellent question. I think that the—it depends on who you're talking about.

01:27:36.610 - 01:28:05.390

Let's talk about, let's say your community; I–I do think that there is a certain expectation that—and there is a certain expectation that you will write something that is in some way, representative of the

01:28:05.410 - 01:28:24.150

experiences of your community. So the book—Bitter in the Mouth had to do with a Vietnamese American child, but you don't really get that

01:28:24.720 - 01:28:49.110

until the middle of the book. So I think…Let me back up and say this. Okay. I fully

01:28:49.110 - 01:29:10.810

understand when, as readers, let's say you're a Vietnamese American reader, and you are hungry, to see a representation of yourself, or your family, or people in a work of literature, and you open

01:29:10.870 - 01:29:28.410

up a book by a Vietnamese American author. And it seems, for example, with the second novel Bitter in the Mouth, it seems to be set in the American South in the mid 70s, within the household of a white

01:29:28.810 - 01:29:47.220

family. It will—it might startle you, surprise you, shock you, that what–what–what is she doing? What–what is this? Why isn't this character, Linda Hammerick, why is she not

01:29:47.260 - 01:30:05.740

Vietnamese American? Or why is there not a Vietnamese American family in this? And part of my, part of my project, especially

01:30:05.740 - 01:30:25.550

with that book, was to ask of every single reader to question their definition of what makes a family. You know? That families can be constructed from adopted

01:30:25.580 - 01:30:42.590

children, from people of different races and ethnicity. But if you go into that book and the first half, and you expect that a family in the

01:30:42.590 - 01:30:58.870

South with a child named Linda Hammerick is necessarily a white family, you'll be wrong. Because by the middle of the book, you find out that she was adopted from Vietnam.

01:31:00.410 - 01:31:18.320

But I'll tell you that that book was extremely hard to—for the publishers, and I think—you know, to–to sort of explain a market

01:31:19.260 - 01:31:34.920

to people. Because readers, whether they're Vietnamese Americans, Asian Americans, or not, have certain expectations of what an Asian American narrative is

01:31:36.720 - 01:31:54.890

and what an Asian American writer will write about. And the American South was not one of them. A book where the character is not immediately identified as–as a

01:31:54.930 - 01:32:14.530

Vietnamese refugee is not one of them. Um… Yeah, there–there—you know–I say this, and it's–it's also

01:32:14.530 - 01:32:31.630

clear that I have three novels to my name. They've been published by large mainstream publishers. You know? So it's not, it's–it's not a, necessarily a closed gate, right?

01:32:32.340 - 01:32:40.320

You can get past that gate. You can reach your readers. But–but it's incredibly difficult.

01:32:41.160 - 01:32:57.190

And what I've told you so far is only part of the publishing history of these books. They—it's, it's–it’s not a straight line, there's a lot of battles that I've had to–to

01:32:57.970 - 01:33:15.040

fight along the way, in order to get all these books out in the way that I wanted them to merge into the world, and not to be re-edited, or to expand upon things that my editors thought

01:33:15.580 - 01:33:32.180

would grab readers more, or, you know, and so on. Right? So yes, there are always expectations. But again, it depends on what you

01:33:32.180 - 01:33:49.210

want—what kind of writer you want to be. If you want to sell a lot of books, then you listen to the expectations, and you write a work that can address the needs of the majority of your readers.

01:33:51.970 - 01:34:06.990

I don't know how to do that. So what impact do you think your writing has had on your audience? And have you been able to

01:34:07.150 - 01:34:21.320

talk to them about that? Yeah. And earlier, I–I mentioned sort of my surprise at the fact that The Book of Salt continues to be read and taught in a classroom setting.

01:34:24.540 - 01:34:45.540

And I–I can say that also about Bitter in the Mouth. And I'm hoping that’ll be the case with the third novel as well. It's already been taught this semester in a–a number of different classes, because the professors have

01:34:45.600 - 01:35:06.690

reached out to me to let me know, invite me to speak to the class and so on. To me that–that connection, that–that sort of, that impact

01:35:09.590 - 01:35:29.680

on academia I–I—that my books have had, is the highest honor. Because I–I remember very clearly what it was like to sit in a

01:35:29.680 - 01:35:47.040

classroom at Yale and talk about the work of Toni Morrison, Alice Walker, Maxine Hong Kingston, and really engage in the themes and–and just how–how

01:35:48.100 - 01:36:05.500

meaningful they were on all sorts of level for young students, you know? Often, it's the first time you've–you've seen, you've read a work by—I hope,

01:36:05.720 - 01:36:21.360

well, hopefully now in college, it's not the first time that you've read a work by an Asian American author or an African American author. But for me, reading Maxine Hong Kingston was the first time I'd read an Asian

01:36:21.360 - 01:36:37.150

American novel, or short story, or anything. Yeah, so I–I know from the many, many times that I've

01:36:37.830 - 01:36:55.090

visited classrooms and universities that–that the work allows the professors to–to really explore the

01:36:55.250 - 01:37:10.340

themes that are important to me, about home, about identity, about history, about who is included in history, who is excluded.

01:37:10.950 - 01:37:27.210

I–I could—you know, I could go on. I mean, one of my—one of the things that I'm proudest of is the fact that I—that The Book of Salt was taught in a Labor Studies class at UC

01:37:27.210 - 01:37:41.470

Santa Cruz because that's exactly one of the themes that I was trying to explore, about whose labor is celebrated and whose is ignored and devalued.

01:37:42.510 - 01:38:00.100

And the fact that someone had finally picked up on it, but has included in–in their syllabus, and–and students are considering, it is–is–is a

01:38:00.600 - 01:38:16.280

huge—I don’t know. It–it feels like I'm doing something that–that matters, that could—that is continuing a–a dialogue.

01:38:20.190 - 01:38:39.310

So, do you think that's the most rewarding thing about being a writer for you? Yeah, I actually do think so. Because I'll tell you that the writing itself is rarely joyful.

01:38:40.150 - 01:38:56.020

Even though I said, earlier on that the reason why I wanted to be a writer was to–to find that joy that I–I was seeing in other people at the Asian American Writers’ Workshop.

01:38:57.410 - 01:39:14.230

And the–the writing is not joyful, because it's unearthing a lot of–of very painful emotions and feelings, right?

01:39:15.390 - 01:39:33.790

But the writing isn't joyful, but the “after the writing” is joyful. You know, the–the ability then to go out into the world with a work that you're proud of, and to share it with

01:39:33.820 - 01:39:54.920

other people, and then to have people contact me from so many places in the world, because that book has been translated into multiple languages, to

01:39:54.920 - 01:40:07.120

reach out to me and say what it means to them. You know, it's–it's that a work has to really touch you, for you to sort of—kind

01:40:07.760 - 01:40:20.680

of search out the author's email and send them a note, you know? You're too busy in life, most of the time. You have other things, you have so much other things.

01:40:22.250 - 01:40:39.460

And–and in that way, it really does feel like these works are out there, kind of, kind of, kind of as my little avatars in the world, and–and they make friends,

01:40:39.490 - 01:40:50.960

and that's amazing to me, really is. And–and definitely in that classroom setting. It's–it's—it means that there's a conversation going on.

01:40:52.730 - 01:41:12.370

It's—really, it's not about, oh, people are reading my book because I'm such a great writer. It's about being part of the–the dialogue about the—of the—it's about being

01:41:12.370 - 01:41:33.830

part of that American tradition of–of creativity, and–and pushing the boundaries of narrative and pushing the boundaries of language. And American literature is incredibly vib-vibrant,

01:41:35.760 - 01:41:55.470

and it's vibrant because of the continual influx of people who come to the English language, who come to the United States, who bring personal history as well as history with a capital H, you know?

01:41:55.970 - 01:42:17.950

But really, it feels like you're a part of this larger enterprise, this larger community. And–and yeah. Mhm. Why do you think that your writing has been able

01:42:17.950 - 01:42:40.410

to resonate with these people? Hm… Um… I think…I think because of–of the themes that interest me.

01:42:43.600 - 01:43:01.970

I think so many people, but in particular readers

01:43:06.940 - 01:43:28.320

of color can–can really wrap their heads around this–this notion of–of–of how fragile home is, whether in the United States or anywhere, and

01:43:28.320 - 01:43:46.070

how it is one of the things that—one of the ways that I construct home, for myself and for my characters, is rarely having to do with

01:43:47.220 - 01:44:04.040

a place, a land. It's more about the community of people that is around you. And I think that–that resonates. That—because in an odd way, that's actually very hopeful.

01:44:05.610 - 01:44:31.850

You know? The idea that you can be at home, almost anywhere, if you have a hand to hold, a shoulder—but to put your head on, an ear to listen to your

01:44:32.050 - 01:44:47.350

stories, that's how home is constructed in my narratives, you know? I think that's a—but I think that probably the folks who are better, better suited to answer your

01:44:47.460 - 01:45:01.600

questions are–are the–the academics who find a lot to–to talk about and to deal with, with respect to my novels. But I–I tell the–the stories that–that interest

01:45:03.250 - 01:45:24.700

me. You know, I think sometimes I'll get the question of “Who do you write for?” You know? And I—and it might sound selfish, but–but I don't think of it as being selfish.

01:45:25.860 - 01:45:41.560

I write for myself, first of all, because it really goes back to the idea that, for me, a novel begins with a question. So it's my attempt to answer the

01:45:41.560 - 01:46:00.260

question, and other questions that arise during the process of writing it. And, and I spend a lot of time. I-I'm not a–a fast writer, I think through these things.

01:46:00.860 - 01:46:13.260

And sometimes I don't have answers, and I don't really write my novels so that you, the reader, will come out with a set of answers, too. It's–it's really

01:46:13.260 - 01:46:30.190

more allowing to—it's about creating a narrative that has enough room within it for you to enter in it, to imagine the possible answers.

01:46:31.410 - 01:46:56.560

Answer it for yourself, and—yeah. So can you talk about Bitter in the Mouth?And kind of how much does the book stem from your own identity and your experiences?

01:46:58.430 - 01:47:13.160

Right, so Bitter in the Mouth was my second novel, and it's set in the little town where my family and I first lived

01:47:16.190 - 01:47:40.230

after we left the relocation camps, and it’s called Boiling Springs, North Carolina. And I've, I am—I'm not a Vietnamese adoptee. But I made my main character a Vietnamese adoptee.

01:47:44.030 - 01:48:04.150

And I think I've, I've already talked about that idea of questioning what it means to be a family, right? And how we define a family. With that novel, it—there were

01:48:04.470 - 01:48:22.760

a couple very important things going on for me as the writer. One was that I began with the idea of a neurological condition that's called synesthesia, which is

01:48:22.760 - 01:48:39.840

the mixing of the senses. And my main character has a form where when she speaks or says certain words, they trigger a flavor for her. And so that is not—clearly, that's not something

01:48:41.610 - 01:48:57.060

taken from some sort of historical, sort of, footnote or anything like that. This is a neurological condition that's still trying—that is still being researched and is being,

01:48:59.950 - 01:49:20.930

not fully understood yet. But the reason why I wanted to write a character that had that condition was that I wanted her to have a very profound difference that was not

01:49:20.930 - 01:49:34.610

detectable on the outside. Her–her difference was an interior one, one that she could hide. And it also

01:49:34.720 - 01:49:51.050

allowed me to write again about food and flavors, but not–not–not in the same way as a first-person narrator who's a cook would write about it. A very different take on flavors.

01:49:52.910 - 01:50:10.220

And that novel is—it begins where–where Linda is. You know–you know her name is Linda, she's telling you about her–her small

01:50:10.220 - 01:50:24.790

town, her condition, she's introducing herself to you, the reader. But what you realize by the middle of the book is that she is introducing you to only part of her.

01:50:26.140 - 01:50:36.470

And because I'm a writer, and the story is not a visual story, she could hide. You know? It's her voice.

01:50:38.250 - 01:50:50.400

And she can share with you the details that she wants to share about herself. And by the middle of the book, you understand that she is an adoptee, that

01:50:50.400 - 01:51:07.360

there is this additional layer of difference that sets her apart from her family and her community. And that would have been the thing that you would have noted first about her, if you've met her in life; if I was

01:51:07.360 - 01:51:22.380

telling a visual story, it would be the–the primary sort of marker of difference on her, is that she is Asian.

01:51:27.010 - 01:51:45.250

So it’s very much a narrative that was exploring what I thought of as the, as the unreliable reader. Okay, you've heard of the unreliable narrator, right,

01:51:45.780 - 01:51:59.300

which is the narrator who lies, tells falsehoods. Is telling a story that–that is in fact, untrue.

01:52:00.610 - 01:52:14.760

With Linda, she doesn't really tell you, “I'm not Asian American. I'm not an adoptee.” She just never said those things. And given the context, given her family, and the fact that

01:52:14.760 - 01:52:32.610

you understand that the family is white, and that the context is a small town in the South, you, the reader, fill in the rest based on your idea of the world,

01:52:33.780 - 01:52:51.630

your understanding of the world. And I–I was relying on the fact that readers would assume that she is also white. And–and what I wanted was to sort of

01:52:52.380 - 01:53:03.350

test that notion. What happens once you do learn that she is Asian American, a Vietnamese adoptee? Do you

01:53:03.350 - 01:53:18.800

understand her differently? Do you understand her family differently? Or is she how she presented herself to be in the very beginning?

01:53:21.390 - 01:53:35.190

Yeah. So, the interesting thing about that novel, and you know, I've alluded to it, that—was that the–the publisher didn't know what to do with it. And the reviewers didn't know what

01:53:35.220 - 01:53:48.350

to do with it. Because I've basically given away, right, the–the mystery, the–the–the surprise, in the middle of that book, right?

01:53:51.600 - 01:54:04.770

Reviewers, almost every one of them did the same, that they gave it away, as if it didn't matter. That they needed to convince readers to read the book,

01:54:05.340 - 01:54:19.900

that I actually wasn't writing about a white family, or a white character, that I was in fact writing about a–a character that I had more of a personal connection to.

01:54:21.620 - 01:54:36.740

So it—there was a real—word isn't hesitancy, the word—it's almost a–a kind of anxiety that that book produced for the publisher and the reviewers.

01:54:39.000 - 01:54:54.170

Yeah. I–I used all of my experiences growing up. All of the pain, all of the anger I had towards that community,

01:54:54.580 - 01:55:13.970

in the writing of that book. But it actually was, was a cathartic—maybe not cathartic, but it allowed me time to–to spend with

01:55:14.160 - 01:55:33.290

that community again, like a kind of revisiting in my mind. And it—I don't know if it lessened the anger, but I think it allowed me to–to take more of

01:55:33.290 - 01:55:51.540

a control over those memories. Because what was happening was that I was revisiting—I mean, I–I literally revisited Boiling Springs in the writing of the book,

01:55:51.740 - 01:56:09.810

but also of course figuratively, I was revisiting it for—it took, I think with that one, it was a seven-year long process. I was revisiting it as an adult, someone who had

01:56:10.630 - 01:56:28.490

agency, someone who was not dependent on my parents, or that—or my teachers, I felt like I—because I was

01:56:29.050 - 01:56:49.320

someone who had control over my life, which is very different than how I was when I was there, as a child. So in that sense, it–it–it allowed me to–to really kind of look at that community and look at the characters that I was

01:56:49.320 - 01:57:04.890

creating, and–and I think, to write something that was more fully fleshed out, and not just a cardboard figure of–of evil, or–or bullies or.

01:57:06.080 - 01:57:28.140

It's–it’s—it was a more considered work of fiction. Mhm. So, can you also talk briefly about The Sweetest Fruits, and what your research process was like for that book? Sure.

01:57:29.350 - 01:57:45.370

The Sweetest Fruits.The question that started The Sweetest Fruits was, was basically I-I love to collect cookbooks.

01:57:45.860 - 01:58:05.360

I like old cookbooks, I love, like, very niche cookbooks. And I read a cookbook by Lafcadio Hearn, again, who lived from 1850 to 1904.

01:58:05.930 - 01:58:20.350

And it was called the Creole cookbook, La Cuisine Creole, right? And it was published in 1885. And it was considered the very first cookbook

01:58:21.870 - 01:58:40.340

to be published about Creole cuisine in the United States. Even though the title is–is La Cuisine Creole,it's in English. And I had heard of Lafcadio Hearn, and—but I knew very little about

01:58:40.700 - 01:58:55.470

him. But everything that I heard—that I had read about him didn't make sense to me. That he was half Irish, half Greek, he came to the US as a young man, he lived in Cincinnati, he lived in

01:58:55.550 - 01:59:12.370

New Orleans, obviously there he published this cookbook. And then, at the age of 40, he moved to Japan and became known as a Western expert on

01:59:12.450 - 01:59:32.710

Japanese folklore, fairy tales, and ghost stories. That's quite a lot of the world that he covered, right? But I—but as with many things, I begin, or I began the

01:59:32.710 - 01:59:51.450

project with–with some sort of food or flavor element. So, it—I, he's written many, many books, but I began there. And La Cuisine Creole is a book that is absurd. It's a–it's a cookbook that

01:59:51.600 - 02:00:07.370

is–is, I could tell was written by someone who had a limited knowledge of food, had a lot of interest in food, but didn't quite really know much about it. And was very arrogant.

02:00:08.090 - 02:00:26.700

His introduction was just awful. It was something about how women—it was about how men are more scientifically minded, and so they were better cooks.

02:00:26.840 - 02:00:39.410

And so therefore, they got paid more to cook than women. I mean, it was just, it was filled with that kind of assertions, which perhaps it's not surprising at all given the era, right?

02:00:40.130 - 02:00:55.320

But I–I didn’t know how that man went on to become the expert in Japan. Like, what was the—what tied him from one place to the other? And so I started doing research for it.

02:00:55.670 - 02:01:13.700

And there are lots and lots of biographies about him. And they would mention his mother. They–they mentioned his first wife, who, as I said, is an African American woman, she's biracial.

02:01:14.570 - 02:01:28.230

She was born into slavery on a farm in Kentucky. And he met her in Ohio, post-Civil War. She was a cook in the boarding

02:01:28.230 - 02:01:42.040

house where he worked. Already, I was starting to answer some of my questions, right? Perhaps she was the one who got him interested in sort of the minutiae of food and

02:01:42.040 - 02:01:57.810

food preparation. I'm an avid cook. I know my husband knows quite a lot about cooking just because he's married to me, do you know what I mean? So I was thinking, okay, maybe that's–that's the connection there. Right? And then how about

02:01:57.810 - 02:02:14.290

Japan? I—you know, I—in the biographies, it became clear that he married again while he was in Japan, to a woman who was described as being the daughter

02:02:15.470 - 02:02:32.090

of a former Samurai, who was illiterate in English, and supposedly, they did not have a language in common because Hearn did not have Japanese.

02:02:32.260 - 02:02:48.650

The—it took me a very long time, a lot of research, to pin down the fact that he was never fluent in Japanese. That he relied on interpreters the entire time that he lived there, last 14 years of his life, right?

02:02:49.160 - 02:03:04.040

I mean, that's not surprising. And–and I don't fault a person for not learning the language and–and having fluency in it. It's the fact that the biographers tried to obfuscate,

02:03:07.050 - 02:03:26.940

to write around it as much as possible, while–while emphasizing the fact that his Japanese wife had no English, right? And they often talked about how he came up with a language for them, which was sort of a

02:03:27.290 - 02:03:44.320

simplified English, simplified Japanese, right? And it was their private language. Well I love the idea of a private language, but I also know, having been married for so long—and anyone who's been in

02:03:44.740 - 02:04:00.570

a long term relationship knows that it's not—a language, a form of communication between the two parties—is not a one sided endeavor. It's created, it's co-created.

02:04:01.850 - 02:04:15.520

So already, I had an idea of this woman that did not comport with the history, with the biographers. And so I needed to know more.

02:04:16.310 - 02:04:33.700

I needed to know more about her. I traveled first to Lefkada, the island where Lafcadio’s mother met his Irish father. Then I traveled to Japan on a fellowship.

02:04:36.590 - 02:04:54.050

And it wasn't until I got to Japan and to the town where they met, which is called Matsue, which is on the western coast of Japan, where there is a museum devoted to him, that it—things

02:04:57.460 - 02:05:08.040

finally became clear. Because they were literally written on the wall. I, too, have no Japanese, but there was, there was an

02:05:08.040 - 02:05:26.640

exhibit, it was—there was English, and it talked about how his wife had worked in his household as–as a maid. That's how they met. And that she was married to–to a Japanese man

02:05:26.690 - 02:05:43.280

previous to meeting Lafcadio, but that the man had left her. So already, all these things were like coming together, like, you understand that this is a woman who

02:05:43.280 - 02:06:03.290

was not the, simply the daughter of a former Samurai, which seems to give her this elevated status, right? She was a woman who essentially has been abandoned by her first husband, is impoverished, is working

02:06:03.860 - 02:06:21.530

as a servant for Lafcadio. It— and then the–the story just—it required so much piecing together

02:06:21.890 - 02:06:42.000

of the facts that were in existence about her, that she–she wasn't illiterate in Japanese, right? She wasn't. She had the equivalent, I’m—I think it was of

02:06:42.300 - 02:06:58.750

like an eighth-grade education, so she could read and write in Japanese. She served as his interpreter. She also told him many of the ghost stories, and the fairy tales,

02:06:59.400 - 02:07:21.500

and the folklore that he then was able to rewrite in English, and make his name as an expert.. So if I had sat at home, here in Brooklyn, and depended on the biographers, even the more recent ones,

02:07:22.260 - 02:07:40.280

I would have been left with–with this idea that he–he married this formerly high born woman who was presented as someone who was docile and–and simply

02:07:41.020 - 02:07:58.880

was the mother of his children. It was such a flawed and fragmented and fragmentary, history of her.

02:07:59.860 - 02:08:18.640

And one of the other things that I was able to find when I went to Matsue was that there was a history that was written about her, in particular, by a Japanese author. And he translated his own work into English,

02:08:19.280 - 02:08:31.520

and I was able to find that work. And finally, there was a book that was focused on–on her, and not on Hearn.

02:08:31.540 - 02:08:47.950

And it–it answered so many questions, right? But still, there were huge gaps in between the facts, and that's–that's where I worked, in those

02:08:48.250 - 02:09:07.030

gaps. So, the research was—took me also around the world, which was great; I love to travel. And–and it, it made me

02:09:07.030 - 02:09:22.330

like Hearn more, too, by the end, because the—because I suppose I wrote a narrative where Hearn was much more of a–a relatable character,

02:09:23.640 - 02:09:36.840

a person who was flawed. I think his biographers were always very clear that he was a flawed human being, but they weren't clear, or they didn't have the

02:09:36.840 - 02:10:02.200

documentation to fill in, how it is this flawed human being was actually assisted and found strength with the women who were an integral part of his life. Mhm. So are

02:10:02.200 - 02:10:21.240

you currently working on anything? Iam. Since 20—since 2013 maybe, I've been working with

02:10:21.240 - 02:10:42.650

composers. Working on—I've written sort of standalone songs, I've written choral works, I've written song cycles, I've—and I'm in the process

02:10:42.700 - 02:11:02.850

of writing a libretto for an opera that will be based—or rather, let's say, inspired by the life of Virginia Woolf and the American

02:11:03.020 - 02:11:15.900

artist Joseph Cornell, and I'm working on that project with a composer named Joan La Barbara. And most recently, I worked with

02:11:16.010 - 02:11:31.040

a—or we're–we’re still in the process of working on a multimedia piece for a chamber ensemble for—that—for

02:11:34.930 - 02:11:53.200

a composer named Shih-Hui Chen, and she teaches at Rice, at the Shepherd School of Music. And it's a commission that well, if–if things, if things

02:11:54.070 - 02:12:11.240

go back to some form of–of–of normal, will be premiered at the Asia Society in Houston at the end of 2021, or the beginning of 2022.

02:12:12.310 - 02:12:29.720

Yeah. So it's a—for her, I'm writing a narration. So it's not going to be, it's—it will be spoken by an actor. But it's–it's been a–a really—I

02:12:32.320 - 02:12:49.750

have to say that this is finally an instance where writing is a joy. Which is, I—and I–I–I can't really explain it, besides the fact that it–it

02:12:50.820 - 02:13:06.400

just—one, it's a–it’s a faster process to write lyrics, it–it–it flows, as it should, I suppose. And I love the process of working, of collaborating with a composer.

02:13:07.120 - 02:13:26.390

And with Shih-Hui Chen, we are also working with a director slash scenic designer. So you know, it's–it's–it's very much a collaboration. And it feels very

02:13:26.390 - 02:13:50.450

alive and exciting, and–and relative to the way that I usually work, it's–it's very fast. So what direction do you see your writing going in the future? Hmm. I don't know.

02:13:52.760 - 02:14:10.300

I–I really don't know. I hope to write another novel. I have an idea for another novel. It’s not a historical novel,

02:14:11.090 - 02:14:25.360

it's–it's a work of speculative fiction, set in the near future. But it's also, it's going to revisit some–some–some

02:14:28.040 - 02:14:45.470

themes that are near and dear to me, which is food, in a very, very different way. But at this point, I don't know.

02:14:45.930 - 02:15:02.730

Because, as you noted, the date of our interview, we're living in incredibly uncertain, unstable times. I find it very, very difficult to focus on a long-term project.

02:15:07.440 - 02:15:26.020

I–I–I—yeah, I–I am really feeling like a, like I need a reserve of hope and faith, which I am, I’m

02:15:26.640 - 02:15:45.720

very—running very low on. So I don't know whether there's another novel or not. So there's a quote on your website that says “The only thing that she really likes to exercise is her

02:15:45.720 - 02:16:01.110

right to vote, and she hopes that her fellow Americans will make a better, kinder, more intelligent decision in 2020.” Can you talk more about your viewpoint on that? Yeah, yeah.

02:16:01.430 - 02:16:19.190

I mean, that was clearly my exhortation to anyone that comes across my webpage to not vote for—to reelect

02:16:19.400 - 02:16:34.080

President Trump. I consider all of—I am a highly political person, and I consider all my writing to be political as well. It might not be the—it might not be didactic.

02:16:35.690 - 02:16:57.630

But, but all three of my novels are political, as well as my essays. It—I'll tell you that it's one of the most disappointing things about the past few

02:16:57.630 - 02:17:17.470

years, is to see the incredible lack of empathy. Not—you know, of course, from–from President Trump himself, and his–his administration,

02:17:18.710 - 02:17:40.600

but also the people who are his supporters. The lack of empathy, the tremendous amount of self-centeredness, selfishness, and the active resistance to history,

02:17:41.480 - 02:18:00.430

their own personal history, as well as the history of the United States, to—if you are an American today, and you can open up your mouth and say that there is no systemic racism, you're, you have—you're lying

02:18:03.340 - 02:18:18.510

to yourself. You're lying to yourself, and you're lying too in the face of documented facts. And I–I want to–to say something about the Vietnamese American

02:18:19.540 - 02:18:34.890

community. You know, I've–I’ve read articles that talk about how there is, there have been polls that have been cited that somewhere around 48%

02:18:37.620 - 02:19:01.680

of Vietnamese Americans will be voting, or have voted, for Trump. I—that to me is–is incredibly disappointing. Bec—I—how can it be that a community who came to the

02:19:01.680 - 02:19:20.900

US as refugees, who did—who asked this nation to open their doors to us, how can we close the doors to other people?

02:19:22.820 - 02:19:38.460

I–I don't understand it. But I could ask that same question of every single person whose family came here as immigrants, and that's the vast number of people, except for Native Americans and–and Black Americans

02:19:39.770 - 02:19:55.690

who were brought here as enslaved people. I–I just don't understand it. And–and I, and it's–it’s very painful.

02:19:56.090 - 02:20:14.050

And I think that that is part of the–the drain on the reserve of hope and faith that these past few years have taken from me. I’m—I-I–I know that there are writers and–and

02:20:15.350 - 02:20:34.920

other creatives who can draw upon these moments of strife, and these moments of unrest, and really create and respond to it. I–I mean,

02:20:34.920 - 02:20:50.970

yes, I have my—clearly I have my feelings; I'm able to express them. But it takes me so long to process some of this, which is

02:20:53.170 - 02:21:11.090

that I–I maybe in a decade or two, that's when I can take what I'm experiencing now and feeling now, and turn that into, somehow, a work. A novel, several short stories, something

02:21:11.510 - 02:21:28.190

but not yet. I still have to process it. And I'm really, I–I–I know that for Vietnamese Americans, there—there is—there was the sense, there is still the sense that–that

02:21:30.760 - 02:21:45.030

Trump is a strong leader, a leader that will keep communism at bay. And that somehow Joe Biden and his administration is–is

02:21:45.130 - 02:22:02.310

opening the doors to socialism. And–and that is what is triggering a lot of the fears and a lot of the–the knee jerk reaction. But I

02:22:02.310 - 02:22:19.400

think in addition to that, if we are truly going to be honest with one another, a lot of it is also anti-Blackness. It's racism. And it's–it's–it's—and that is

02:22:20.480 - 02:22:45.960

incredibly disappointing to me, because I take so much strength from—I take so much strength and–and–and—from African American literature, from my

02:22:45.960 - 02:23:04.720

fellow wri—African—from African American writers. It—I, I don't know what to say, except that it's, yeah, it's deeply painful and disappointing.

02:23:10.620 - 02:23:24.820

Do you think there are ways that we can address the anti-Black sentiment in the Asian American community? Do you see ways to improve that? Ithink part of it is

02:23:29.030 - 02:23:56.040

if you came here as an adult, so I'm–I’m limiting my answer here to, let's say, folks like Vietnamese Americans who came here as refugees. You may have never learned the history of

02:23:56.040 - 02:24:17.780

the United States. Really, I mean…and in lieu of learning the history of how the United States, excuse

02:24:17.780 - 02:24:38.920

me, in lieu of learning that history, what you're getting instead from popular media, from

02:24:43.770 - 02:25:06.160

society at large, is this message, this incredible anti-Black message, that here is a community of people who are welfare cheats, lazy, I mean, you—we don't have to go into

02:25:06.530 - 02:25:25.320

all of the-the stereotypes. But it's very much, I think, a message that is meant to instruct newcomers, like a refugee community, “Don't be like them.” You know,

02:25:25.440 - 02:25:44.780

and if you do some of these things, you're like them, and they are not respected, not full citizens, and deserve the kind of treatment that they get, right?

02:25:46.300 - 02:26:02.220

So it's—perhaps that's it, is that what some folks, some Vietnamese Americans who came here as refugees learned was that..

02:26:03.890 - 02:26:23.840

But why I–I think the moment that you're able to learn the history of how–how systemic the inequalities are, and how it was built into this

02:26:23.840 - 02:26:37.520

country from–from the day—days of enslavement, to post-Civil War, to the Jim Crow era, to—I mean, it—I

02:26:42.080 - 02:27:03.270

cannot, I cannot imagine that if folks really had a time to–to sort of just… learn some of the

02:27:03.270 - 02:27:20.290

history of Black Americans, that there would not be more of an understanding and ability to empathize with what is going on in the United

02:27:20.290 - 02:27:36.460

States. So maybe I–I think this is why—hmm, I don't know. I'm–I’m trying to think through if this is why I am

02:27:37.500 - 02:28:00.440

constantly going back to history as–as the seed for my own work. I don't know. But I think to answer your question about maybe if we open up that question,

02:28:01.260 - 02:28:21.500

or I try to open up the question to Asian Americans and anti—and racism within the communities, I–I don't think—you know, people who,

02:28:24.740 - 02:28:41.550

people—Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans, communities who have had generations in the United States—not always, but certainly, there are segments who have been here for so long.

02:28:44.130 - 02:29:03.840

I don't think that there is that kind of pervasive anti-Blackness. How could you be a Japanese American and know your own history of being interned, forced into camps,

02:29:05.550 - 02:29:21.250

labeled an enemy, and based on your identity, how could you turn around and look at what—at your fellow Americans who

02:29:21.250 - 02:29:39.270

are Black, how could you turn around and look at them and–and not see the similarities, the–the–the connective tissues between the two groups? And I think with ti—with perhaps the next

02:29:39.680 - 02:29:55.720

generation, the younger generation right now, like yourself, those–those kind of bridges, those kind of connective tissues will grow stronger, will–will develop.

02:29:56.470 - 02:30:12.650

I, I don't know. I think the worst thing that could happen is this idea that somehow

02:30:16.420 - 02:30:36.330

Asian Americans, refugee—of refugee origins or not—the worst thing that can happen, I think, is if they think of themselves as honorary Whites. As somehow, that tent is going to open up, and

02:30:36.510 - 02:30:46.850

they could enter into it. Because America does have a history of that. We make—we, the nation, make honorary White folks.

02:30:47.090 - 02:31:01.220

And I'll give you an example: Italians and Irish. There was a time when an Italian was not a White person. An Irish person was not considered good enough

02:31:02.420 - 02:31:16.560

to–to walk into the front door of a shop. But eventually, what we needed was more White people. And if Asian Americans think that

02:31:16.880 - 02:31:37.350

this is how we will persevere or–or become part of the national fabric, is to be these honorary Whites, I think we will be... disgraceful. We will be a disgraceful community.

02:31:59.170 - 02:32:21.170

Do you think that you have always been comfortable with your Vietnamese identity, or proud of it? Well, I'm very proud to be Vietnamese American.

02:32:31.190 - 02:32:49.750

But, but I–I—it's–it’s—it might be a little bit difficult to–to kind of wrap your head around, when you're sort of in a state like Texas, right?

02:32:51.180 - 02:33:08.480

Where there is—and especially in a city like Houston, where there's a sizable Asian American community, folks have an understanding of Korean Americans, versus Chinese Americans, versus

02:33:08.480 - 02:33:24.740

Taiwanese Americans, versus Vietnamese, Cambodian, Lao.. I have lived in places in the US as a child, and as an adult, where there's

02:33:24.770 - 02:33:42.310

not that understanding of difference, or the need to understand. We're just generally Asian, Asian American, right? And in a way, I-I've come to understand that that

02:33:43.290 - 02:33:59.180

is how—that is my main identity as Asian American. It's a constructed identity-identity, right? We constructed here in the US for political purposes. Asian, that–that

02:34:00.060 - 02:34:14.360

concept actually doesn't really exist anywhere else, people are their own country, their own nationality. They're not this–this vast continent of Asia.. In the US, because there were

02:34:14.360 - 02:34:33.900

so few of us, we came together and became Asian American for a political voice, for strength. So when I'm—and–and I see that I veer more—in

02:34:36.120 - 02:34:53.460

addition to being Asian American, I veer towards being a person of color.. And I find strength, solidarity, and example from the Black community, from the Latinx

02:34:53.460 - 02:35:10.740

community, from the LGBTQ communities. So to me, that's what I'm really proud of, is–is the ability of–of these communities to come together and find strength with one another,

02:35:12.470 - 02:35:30.740

to find common ground. And, and I—among Vietnamese Americans, there are incredibly progressive, active

02:35:35.400 - 02:35:51.010

members. Younger folks, often, and I'm tremendously proud to call those folks my community. So, I

02:35:53.070 - 02:36:09.300

don't think I—my–my–my identity is–is, my identity and my community is not defined by

02:36:09.760 - 02:36:26.540

my—the fact that all these folks are Vietnamese, or all these folks are Asian. It's really more of their ethos, and their social justice

02:36:26.680 - 02:36:39.850

ethos in particular. One that is inclusive, one that is striving to lift up other folks, no matter the color of

02:36:39.900 - 02:36:55.960

their skin or where they came from. That, to me, is what I'm proud of. So, does that-does that make sense to you? That—yeah.

02:36:58.640 - 02:37:15.860

Mhm. So have you visited Vietnam? I have, I've—but I've only been back twice. I think the first time was maybe in 2007.

02:37:17.220 - 02:37:35.700

And the second time was maybe, I'm gonna say 2013, maybe? I think one of the reasons why it took me so long to go back, was that I really wanted to go back with my

02:37:35.700 - 02:37:54.100

mother. And my mother never wanted to go back, until she did. And so–so we traveled together, my younger sister, myself, my

02:37:54.100 - 02:38:18.030

husband, my mother, and it—I, by 2007, enough of—especially younger people in America had traveled

02:38:20.690 - 02:38:38.320

to Vietnam, or even lived there.. And so, before I went back, there was always a lot of, kind of chit chat at parties about how–how great going to Vietnam was for

02:38:38.320 - 02:38:54.070

them, how–how cheap it was, how people were so friendly. And–and I knew that when we went back, it wasn't, it–it wasn't a vacation for us; it was, it was going to be a reckoning.

02:38:54.640 - 02:39:10.090

It was something that we had left behind trying to—I don't know trying to do what, who knew what was going to happen. And–and there was so much sadness. So much sadness, not–not just simply

02:39:12.050 - 02:39:31.300

because of a–a sense of what we had lost. But I, but I think the sadness may have been situated in the idea of the other lives that we could have

02:39:31.370 - 02:39:49.280

lived. Like, yeah, like my mother, walking around Saigon, which is no longer called Saigon, of course, and pointing out things that didn't

02:39:50.540 - 02:40:02.730

exist anymore. You know? The bookstore that my grandfather owned was now a hotel. It wasn't even the same building, but it was kind of there.

02:40:03.010 - 02:40:15.530

Like we saw it. It was like this ghosted—ghostly scrim of a thing. And she saw it. We didn't. And then on and on, it was just so much sadness. Yeah. I—and

02:40:20.530 - 02:40:37.180

I think what I found, and–and I–I think a lot of my friends who are Vietnamese Americans around my age who go back is often, what the first thing that hits you is that

02:40:38.410 - 02:40:54.820

no one thinks of you as Vietnamese. They can tell right away by your clothing, by your Vietnamese and how it doesn't quite sound Vietnamese maybe, or your—and–and with me,

02:40:56.790 - 02:41:11.850

it was about the, just the body, that my body didn't look like a Vietnamese woman's body anymore. I wasn't a—I was an Asian American, I–I was a bigger person than those around

02:41:11.850 - 02:41:30.100

me. And then, so it's kind of a, you live in the US with this sort of fantasy, that–that there's a—this different place, this–this other country where you may

02:41:30.100 - 02:41:48.820

belong, and that you would belong. But then when you get there, and then you understand that you don't belong there, then what do you have? You don't have the fantasy, and then you have the country that you go back

02:41:49.160 - 02:42:06.770

to, and people look at you and assume you don't speak English. Or that you–you’re a visitor, or a—it's, yeah, it's–it's incredibly

02:42:06.770 - 02:42:24.670

painful. I–I don't think the folks who are younger than me who have grown up and been able to travel to Vietnam as–as children and into their adulthood,

02:42:25.490 - 02:42:48.550

I don't think the–the—there is such a–a schism for them.. Vietnam is another place, another home.. For me to travel to Vietnam just is–is this incredibly painful reminder that I don't belong there, and I'm

02:42:48.610 - 02:43:04.560

told I don't belong here, either. So, it does—it may not surprise you that I would prefer to travel somewhere else. Where I know I don't belong and–and it doesn't matter,

02:43:04.780 - 02:43:22.490

and it's not fraught with history, personal history. So I go to Italy a lot. Yeah, yes. Mhm. So how do you

02:43:22.580 - 02:43:45.770

think your identity as a Vietnamese woman has impacted your ability to be successful in different fields? Ah…well, I think we–we sort of began the interview, right, with this–this idea of

02:43:45.900 - 02:44:07.360

whether I'm a stronger person because of my experiences as a refugee, as a Vietnamese American. And I–I really pushed back on that. So, I—well, I–I

02:44:09.590 - 02:44:27.150

can tell you this. I am—clearly, I have a plan A and a plan B. My plan A

02:44:27.150 - 02:44:46.180

was not my own plan, but I mean, it's—rather it's not a plan I–I–I want to ever revisit, but it's still there. I have a law degree; I'm a lawyer. I am in many ways, I fear—I fear

02:44:46.460 - 02:45:01.750

less, because of it, I feel like I do have a–a particular key into understanding so much of contemporary life. From a simple

02:45:01.750 - 02:45:19.480

thing like signing a lease, to reading about the lawsuits that Trump has–has brought against the various states. I'm not fearful of the law either, right?

02:45:20.320 - 02:45:33.320

Plan B of course is–is the writing. But it's–it’s unfair, I think, to–to characterize in that way. I am—I'm very—I think like some

02:45:33.320 - 02:45:48.300

of my friends that I know who are both writers and–and lawyers, and of course, many of them are Asian American women, is that—it's about

02:45:54.050 - 02:46:14.180

being able to—oh, this is a terrible way of putting it, but I do think it's true with respect to me, it's–it’s like being able to dodge a bullet, wherever the bullet is coming from..

02:46:16.470 - 02:46:31.930

I never, I—there have been so many instances in—during my writing career, where I could have caved. I could have said, “Okay, I–I

02:46:31.930 - 02:46:46.810

will write it the way that you want me to write it, editor, because it’ll sell more books, or it’ll be easier for the reader, it will be a more successful book.” I never gave in.

02:46:47.250 - 02:46:59.850

Why didn't I give in? Because I knew I had a plan A. Fine, you don't want to publish my book, I will put it away, I will go back and I will temp as a

02:46:59.850 - 02:47:18.630

lawyer. I know I can pay my bills, pay my student loans, take care of my day-to-day needs. I am not reliant solely on a book, on the creative side,

02:47:20.530 - 02:47:35.260

to live, and in—and it's—so maybe you can look at that as a strength. Do you know what I mean? You can look at it as–as always

02:47:36.810 - 02:47:49.430

making sure that you–you have your bases covered. Maybe that's a nicer analogy, a baseball analogy as opposed to a bullet analogy, but I—yeah, I

02:47:52.670 - 02:48:16.190

don't count on only one thing. Yeah. Oh. Okay, I think this might be my last question. So, what importance does storytelling

02:48:16.190 - 02:48:35.450

have in your life? And what importance do you think it has in society? Hmm. I think…I think storytelling in my life

02:48:41.500 - 02:49:00.300

has to do with trying to understand very complicated, complex issues. You could tell someone to read the history of

02:49:04.240 - 02:49:30.720

an enslaved person, or you can—which could be filled with facts, dates, places, acts. And in addition to that, if you

02:49:30.760 - 02:49:50.630

also put in their hands a book, a work of fiction, short story, a set of poems, that creates a space for them to

02:49:50.630 - 02:50:10.940

imagine how it was for a particular enslaved person to exist in the world, to go on, to wake up one day after the other, to endure, to

02:50:11.210 - 02:50:30.420

feel joy, to feel hope, to have faith, all the things that you have, and that all humans have no matter our condition, yet knowing

02:50:31.980 - 02:50:47.800

the history of the context of their lives, and then to be invited into a-an–an—a story, a narrative space, where you get to s-spend

02:50:51.910 - 02:51:09.660

a period of your, of your day thinking about that–that–that one or two or three characters, to be drawn in that way, I think

02:51:10.240 - 02:51:24.140

is–is crucial, right? For really building what I had talked about earlier, which is empathy. So earlier, I talked about history, and

02:51:24.140 - 02:51:39.110

the lack of knowledge of history. But I—if—the better answer, and I think the truer answer for me, is history has to be accompanied by a

02:51:40.560 - 02:51:58.090

personal story. And perhaps that is also why there is—if you're living in a community right now, today, that has—that is really homogenous, that

02:51:58.140 - 02:52:16.180

has no one but folks who look exactly like you, who have had the exact, or very similar, family history to yours, and you can't even access a personal

02:52:16.180 - 02:52:33.180

story of, of any—from any other community, you’re—maybe that does explain your lack of empathy.

02:52:33.430 - 02:52:54.190

So really, it—to me, storytelling has the ability and the possibility of–of evoking a space

02:52:54.190 - 02:53:05.920

for empathy to emerge. And certainly, without—within myself, I know that to be true. And I–I do think

02:53:05.990 - 02:53:24.910

that–that really is–is—gosh, that's—it's really that the kind of, the highest kind of hope that you can have

02:53:26.240 - 02:53:42.280

for–for your stories, right? That, it goes out into the world, and it says, “take a moment.” Take a moment and see what it was like to be this Japanese woman,

02:53:45.630 - 02:54:01.490

to consider what it was like to love this man, this Lafcadio Hearn, and why? Or why something akin to love

02:54:02.040 - 02:54:21.760

emerged between them, you know? And yeah, and I think part of that, right, is this invitation to slow down your world, and I mean that as a

02:54:21.810 - 02:54:41.570

personal—every book that is worth reading is a—is an invitation to you, the reader, to slow down. To stop looking at the screen, to spend some time alone with the words, and to

02:54:41.570 - 02:55:02.950

imagine and to empathize. Do you have anything else you want to say? Um. Is there anything else I want to say? I, I don’t

02:55:07.570 - 02:55:24.030

know, I–I feel like I want to say something about Houston. And even though I was disappointed by Texas as–as a whole, I–I know that the state of Texas has these

02:55:26.960 - 02:55:46.080

incredibly diverse communities. Houston, Austin…and–and every time my—my mother and my younger sister still live in Houston.

02:55:46.130 - 02:56:03.030

So every time I go back, I’m, I'm, in some ways I'm pleasantly surprised that—of how much is embraced by this—by the

02:56:03.030 - 02:56:16.280

city of Houston as a whole. And one of the clearest example, and–and it's–it's, of course, is–is how incredibly vibrant

02:56:17.360 - 02:56:36.680

the–the food scene is there. Right? And it is one of the–the—it is a way to–to invite people in, right? To—and–and once you have

02:56:36.700 - 02:56:53.670

someone sitting at your table, that's when the stories can also begin, right? And because each dish comes with it a story; each cook comes with him

02:56:53.670 - 02:57:08.750

or her a story. So–so in–in, that seems help—hopeful, helpful. And I just, yeah.

02:57:10.220 - 02:57:32.560

So, so in that sense, there's a little reserve of hope there to be found. And yeah, and I'm hoping that whoever is–is looking at this in–in the future could

02:57:32.680 - 02:58:00.640

understand how–how, how the—how precarious the United States feels on today, that it's an experiment in democracy that has

02:58:03.200 - 02:58:18.240

more or less been working. It's not perfect, but it felt like it was on the right path, and now, it feels, it feels under attack. And it's

02:58:18.860 - 02:58:37.230

incredible to me that the attack is coming from within the United States. You know? Yeah. All right. All right.