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Alright, um today is June 5, 2019 and this is Mary Claire Neal. This is Mei Leebron. And we’re interviewing Dr. Mei Young? Meng Yeh.

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Meng Yeh. Dr. Meng Yeh. For Houston Asian American Archive. Um, so thank you so much for coming. Mm. No problem. Can you tell us first just when and where you were born and a little

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about your earliest memories if you can think of them? Mhm. I was born in Taiwan uh in a little city, Hualien, the east of uh Taiwan in 1961.

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And uh um, I think after one or two years old and then we moved to Taipei, the biggest city in Taiwan and then I—we lived there for the rest of uh the time until I came to the

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States. So, I was born and grow up in Taiwan until um I graduate from college uh then I came to the States which is uh 1986 for my master’s degree. Um and then

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so I—you know, it’s my uh my uh childhood uh you know, going to school, college all in Taiwan. Mhm. So, who um like which family did you grow up with?

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You had two brothers, right? Right. I have two younger brothers. They are all still in Taiwan. My parents are all still in Taiwan.

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I’m-I’m alone here. I mean, I’m one person here. I don’t have any family actually in T—in the States. All in Taiwan or China.

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Uh because my father uh actually is from mainland China. Uh, in 1949 when Taiwan and China um uh became two parts of uh countries and uh um—so his family when he came 1949 to Taiwan, his

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family were all in mainland China. Um so, at that time he-he thought it was just the civil war you know will end and he would go back. But he

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never did. So um, so after 40 years, then he you know, met his family again. Uh, so I have family in both sides um but they, they, they do not come to the States.

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So, you never visited them as a child or…? We visit my family in C-China? Mhm. Yeah we did. After China opened up, and uh Taiwan allowed us to visit them, I mean

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first we met in Hong Kong uh, and then when it open up. Yes, we went to visit them. So, they-they can come to Taiwan too and we can visit them.

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So um… my father, when he came to Taiwan 1949 actually he’s married. Um he had, he had a three old—three-month old daughter there. So it’s my sister actually.

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Um so, after 40 years, he-he left her three-month old and met with her again she-she was 40 years old. Um yeah I went back to-to see them and they came to Taiwan. So, yeah. Um so, your—how much younger are your younger brothers from you?

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Um, one is one-year-old. The other one is uh nine years old. Um, so one is still in Taiwan. One working in mainland China because uh right now, they’re politically

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separated. But business wise, you know, is a very close connected. So, a lot of Taiwanese went to China to work, to have business. So my brother is one of them.

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Yeah. Do you have any particular memories from childhood, going to school, or favorite teachers? Um… yeah in-in Taiwan that um, I uh I-I enjoying studying language a lot uh so I met uh

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one teacher in elementary school. Um, she is really into uh Chinese literature and Chinese language so I learn a lot from her. Sometimes we would have you know private time individually so

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we—we worked on that. And then we went to—when I went to um, junior highs we studied, we studied English at the age of 13. And uh so I’m interested in uh English, too.

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So, I met a wonderful teacher. Um, you know uh, give-give me the concept about language structure. So actually that’s why I came to the States for a master’s,

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teaching English as a second language. Um, and then um, after I get my master’s degree, then uh, I was in UT Austin. Um so uh, when

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I got there uh after one year, I had a TA-ship. So I can—I could teach Chinese um… well to the undergraduates. And that's the time w—the time when I interest start to think

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about my own language, right, y—y—you are—you are foreign during it, but you never thought about the structure or grammar. So um… so far m— my teaching of my own language starts my interest in the

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structure of the language. That's why after I finished my master's degree in teaching English as a second language, and then uh went on to do a PhD in linguistics. So, yeah, so it’s because all the interesting

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languages and language structures, you know, kind of guide me to the what I'm doing right now. Yes, yeah. That's from such an early age. I know. I remember that.

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I—even when I was very young, I like to be a teacher. I remember I have two younger brothers. The one younger than me. I would—in a way, I like four or five, I

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would ask him to sit there and have blackboard and I would teach him how to do that. So I think you know it’s my calling even at a young age. You know, I already want to be a teacher and then I—since never changed that the—the—the idea you

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know and I'm still enjoying it. I mean, I'm teaching what, Chinese for almost more than 20 more than 20 years. I'm still interested in it.

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Yeah. Did you like your read a lot as a kid? Was that part of your interest in language? Yes, I read a lot and still right now, I still read lot—and I read everything, not just language uh structural linguistics.

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Right now, I'm reading for example, the, you know, Hidden Life of Trees. You know, see all the trees around you actually there a lot of things we don't know, they talk to each other, you know, they communicate, they know where to grow, you

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know, how to, you know, get rid of the insects and the problems, you know, so. Yeah, I read a lot. So, um. Um, about your family.

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Do you remember like what kind of values or worldviews your family or your community or your school kind of impressed upon you? Um… def—definitely for Chinese is, is family concept right? And then and then uh…

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uh how you uh help take care of your, your, your brother sisters, how do you do the filial piety to your— your parents. It’s—it’s very, I think it's very strong. Even… then the way you came to this country, I

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think there's a big difference uh that um um… I married to a non-Chinese, and uh we're, you know, we're married for—for 30 years. Um, we have kids like Mei’s age.

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But there's something about this family concept still is hard to communicate. I mean, it's hard for him to understand and it's hard for me to tell him why we do this. Um… so for example,

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that um… that uh, you know, my parents they have their uh pension is that their everyday life is fine. You know, it's not like they need us to give them money or anything, but for Chinese you know you y—y—you should—you should do that, just to

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express your appreciation, your attitude and your care about them. You know, you want to give them when their birthday, or parent, mother day, father, or any of them, not just a gift, a card, you want to give them some money gift.

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And this is a concept is very, for example, for my husband's um, American to understand that. He say, “your parents do not need the money, why should we do that” right? Um… so um… this is one thing

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about family a—another thing, oh—or another example is that when my brother was studying here uh… for master degree, and uh, his old car broke down, so he—he needs a new car, and we have an old car want to get rid of.

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So I—I know, for Chinese, you know, we can afford that we say, we just give the old car to my brother to, to use. Mm, my husband, “no, you had to, you know, sell it to him,” you know.

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So—so they make—they made it really very clear. You—it’s not he is not generous, he's very generous, you know, when my parents come, he will—he will—he will buy the tickets for them, you know, if uh they are coming in, he will show his welcoming.

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But he's just not, out of no need you give money to, to your family. He—he cannot uh understand and for Chinese is very natural, it’s—it's you’re supposed to do.

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So it's a uh… a skill, you know, uh as a Chinese I—I how I educated, was educated and remember that. Um so this families one thing, another is um I think education is another big difference that I—I have to

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get used to it when I raised my two kids in this country. Uh y—you know, communicate with my husband, um… uh for one thing um… here in the States, um, they, the kids

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do not get grades you know like, a uh semester grade um like A, B, C until the third grade, or—or second, uh or the fourth grade right? So uh so they, the kids do not have the concept to

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have to study, have to do the test, until a little older um… you know, so when they—the third grade I remember when my girls the—the—the oldest one got a grade and then um, you know, not all A’s.

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You know, some B’s some, you know, C’s. So for Chinese, I was—a problem you know, it’s a problem, because not doing well. But then I showed my husband, my husband said, “oh, not bad!”.

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It's like he—he said, “oh, I never get an A when I study, when I study.” So, mm, so for—but he's successful right now, he’s—he has his own career. Uh, for him, uh uh grew up in this country, he

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thinks grade doesn't even that much, not significant you know. But for Chinese, uh that's everything about education. That's you are your grade. Um, so I learned something

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from that too, because I, because I see my kids are happy. Well, happy in school is not like they did not want to go to school, they did not want to learn. They still do, you just know maybe they're not good at-at

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testing. Because not like Chinese from the first grade, you have so many tests, you know. Um… so I remember that in Chinese school, remember you went to the Chinese school. Actually, my girls went to

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the same Chinese school with Mei and uh Daniel. In Chinese school, even in your kindergarten or first grade, they already gave you grades. When you—you—you write a test, you know characters and then

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you have a grade. So, so my older daughter, Catarina, got the grades earlier than her American school. So, she came and showed me that Chinese test, you know. She got 87. And I say, “oh, that’s not bad”.

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She said, “mommy, I’m the almost the 17 or 18, the last one” yeah and, “how do you know?”, “because the teacher was showing everyone the grades. Who got 90, who got 81.” Because this is very Chinese way of showing and to the whole class.

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No, you have to work harder to get to the top, you know, now you're 86 is not that great. So, she actually got that uh idea from the Chinese school. Um… but because uh because the—the uh I—I change,

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you know, I learned that, I changed my way of looking at um education and grades. So I did not push my kids that much. I let them to learn on for on

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their—on own path. So I remember, uh, several years ago, there's a tiger mom books coming out, right? My—my girls would say, “mom, y—you don't look like a Tiger mom at all.” Because I—I hardly push them, you know?

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Um, so I think they feel more free at home can do what they want. They are not—they will not be afraid of having bad grades, you know. When they didn't want to study, you know, I give them so, you know, you—you maybe you should just take a break, you know, study all day

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probably not help. So, education is the other one. And so I—I, I learned a lot to adjust myself. Um… so this is one thing about grade—the other thing, in education is

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sports in this country. So—so much emphasis on sports. Uh to the point, I really think we—we did too much because my girls were doing soccer since years, five years old.

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Right? I mean, they have to, they are in the clubs, right? So they had to practice every day, two hours. And then they have competitions on weekends. And then when they got into school, like uh junior high school or—or high school, they

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had school teams. So they had club team, they had a school team. And uh I just wonder, you know, at that time, we didn't have time to find time to study.

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Um… but that's a part I cannot, I cannot change anything because it's so important for the… for the kids. My girls too, you know, they wanted to be on two teams, they… there's some

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shows, um probably give them some, I don't know status, or some uh identity in school that “I'm in the team,” you know, uh so they wanted to do it. Um… so they spent a lot of time on—on it.

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So they had to stay up very late to study in order to finish all the homework. But—but that’s their choice, right? So sports um… I still don't

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understand why so much time, you know, even after my girls already went through it. Uh… and I think this sports in the States is not just when you going to school, but also the whole society. You know, look at how much time we spend on watch basketball and

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football, every state has their team. This big thing in the States, um. Yeah. So, family, education is two things um, as a Chinese are ingrained in my mind, and uh… um I

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come here, I came here and some of the ideas changed. Um… with family, with parents, with uh, relatives, is still very far. Yeah. So you came first um, let's see you were like 25 , right, for

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your masters. Um but you had studied English literature right in college, in Taiwan before that. So um… I guess before you were kind of like had your family life and started discovering a lot of these

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things about raising kids and a family in America, was there anything that was surprising or challenging when you first arrived for school? Uh when I arrived in Texas, my UT Austin was my first

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university. I think the Texas is so big. That’s my, my first uh surprise, not surprise, shock I should say. Every—everything is so big.

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Uh, Taiwan is a small island. Um… even in Texas you go—go to have food the cup is so big, you know the iced tea. I can not even hold it. I have to use two hands, just you know place everything so big.

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And there's so much space uh because in Taiwan is all apartments, high rise, because so many people, and so—so you know limited space, right? So everything go up. Uh it's not like this, here you have

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individual houses, you have your lawn, so a lot more space. Um… well, and when I applied to schools in the States, I—I got in actually, um Columbia in New York, also um, Santa Barbara,

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California but here also UT Austin, but I decided to come to Texas. Because uh at that time, a lot of uh Taiwanese when they apply to school here, they usually go to LA, I mean, California and New York, there were more Chinese.

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But not many people came to Texas, so I was just curious, you know, what’s—what’s out here? So uh—but I came here uh… it’s—you know, I'm surprised to—to—to see this place so much place space, so big, but I'm also very happy

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because it's uh, it's different, you know, in a different way. I know about LA, or the California, New York. People here um… much more laid back.

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I think that they talk differently. They talk very slow, “howdy” you know. So it’s everything it was new, so I was really excited about it. Because at that time um I was thinking just

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get Master degree and—and uh went back to, to teach. I didn't have the plan to do my PhD. But then I uh first I wanted to know, learn more about linguistics.

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But also, I like Austin, especially Austin, very much. Austin's a very liberal city. I think I learned a lot more outside the classroom than in the classroom. Yeah. I relate to that.

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Austin, right? Yeah. Uh, Austin and Houston are probably two most liberal cities in Texas. Mhm. So, you were kind of looking forward to that adventure of being on your own?

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Did you— Did you miss anything about home? Are you—? Uh I have to say I-I uh the first two years I was so excited I did not miss much. A—at that time, it’s really difficult to call because it was so expensive, will wrote letters.

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You know, I wrote letters to my parents but hardly called, I didn't go home either. But uh yeahs, but the first few years especially beginning, I was very excited to learn everything and tried to explore everything.

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Um very excited—and also another big thing is that um… in Taiwan, when I left uh town was still a bit closed in terms of um… it’s not purely, it’s not really democratic country.

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Right so it's Chiang Kai-shek that led army the Nationalist Party to Taiwan and he was the president and then his son was the President. You know, is really know you actually anything.

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Uh so, there's a lot of things we were not told, what happened for example, what happened between the civil war? How did it happen, what why we you know, we, we won the second world war, we—we beat the Japanese you know, what happened between us?

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Uh, between him and the, the um Chairman Mao for example. So when I came to this country, then there's a lot books about that. So, I started reading all these details, and understood there were many mistakes Chiang Kai-

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shek made because in Taiwan you cannot talk about it, right? We don't know. China is so big, he has such a big army. How did you lose the war? You know, how did you come to Taiwan?

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How did Mao—Mao win the war? So, so we—I—so I read a lot of books. I realized how he mismanaged the country, the finance uh and then lost the confidence of the people.

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And so, this—the Chairman the Mao Zedong Chairman Mao had the support of the people. Um so eventually he… Chairman Mao won the uh the civil war. Uh so there's another thing uh when I came to this country I-I had this

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chance to read a lot of things that I w—I was not allowed. So, I was very happy. Um… so the first few years, I really… I

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it’s—it’s really I—I—I did not go home. I—I was not, I did not miss my family. I just wrote. Yeah. So going off of like this uh censorship.

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Um, how do you—how do you feel about like this censor— cen—censor in China? Uh, in Taiwan, or right right now? Uh, right now both in Taiwan and China.

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Taiwan right now is no censorship. Taiwan is totally— But like back then and also now in China and… Yeah, back then um… yeah, well, I was—I have to say that um you say if I miss um Taiwan or h—I

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miss home, but in Taiwan I feel like I was uh uh suffocated in specially in schools you know, because there are so many rules, you know? You can only have hair this long, you had to wear uniforms.

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I mean it’s changed all now, okay, you have to wear black um— umbrella, you had to wear black, everything had rules. And that you could not criticize the government you can, whatever you will—I remember writing the uh compositions in uh,

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for example, talking about society or any topics, anything at the end, you have to say, “oh, our goal is going back to China to conquer you know, to defeat Mao, Chairman Mao.” You had to say something like that. It’s just

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ridiculous. Um… and then we have the entrance examination to get to the college. And uh there is a subject, you know, that you have to memorize all the things

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government says. And the—the certain answer to that is no way for you to express your own ideas or even ask questions. Now, like in the schools, if I asked questions, you know teacher were really not happy about it.

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So um, so that's a problem about censorship. And uh what happened to Taiwan after I came to this country is Chiang Kai-shek’s son, he made a decision to really focus on Taiwan, not

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thinking about always going back to mainland China. So, he started to spend the money to build highways, airports in Taiwan. And he also the person started to think, we need to work with so cou—Taiwanese, they came much

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earlier than Nationalist Party People you know, like three or four years old, at three or five or 400 years before. Uh, so uh he let the Taiwanese to—to—to be at the very high position, actually vice

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president. Um, so that's gradually started changing the—the Taiwan's um censorship. Um and then, uh I think in 1988 or something, uh we have the first uh national election to elect our

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own president. So that's changed everything. Because we have a second party, before we only had the national party, Nationalist Party, right, that was second party right now. Um so it's—it’s very democratic uh

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country, and you can say and criticize everything you—you—you—you want. So I think that's very healthy. Right? Um, and uh, and the really um giving people the—the—the

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opportunity to express their ideas. And then if you look at the, China right now, it's uh still like, Taiwan was back 20 years ago. Um, they keep saying that um, China is so big, Taiwan is

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so small, so you can do that easily. Tai—China is so big, were so many people, we cannot just let it go. Uh for everyone, the country will be a mess. Um… this is just their—their saying the people on the

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top they—they have the power um to say that. I think at least, you know, in my experience, uh a—as I told you, I have family there, we talked to the common people, they all know, the—the government is lying.

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The government, you know, uh just doesn't want to uh give people the right to, to think, to express their ideas. Um but I—I think for, in a look forward, I

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think the—the—the Communist Party uh probably will not let go their power for—for a while, I think in the, probably at least not 50 years or something. So they are,

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they are so powerful and uh um… and then right now the—the um how do you say, the—the Communist Party raise people's uh living standards, right? So people's life was improved.

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Um, so a lot of young people right now, would rather spend their energy, their time, to have be—you know, to get a better job making more money and not involved with, you know, politics.

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You know, “okay, I don't have the right to select mayor, that's fine. You know president, that's fine. As long as you give me the space, I can have a good job, make my own money”. So, you don't, you don't have the mess try to uh,

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try to protest and try to fight for the right. You know, the June 4th, I think, June 4th yesterday was the Tiananmen Square, right? Hong Kong people celebrated.

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You know, China, the young people probably forgot about the whole thing. So no one is fighting for that. So maybe the future of China is really depending on Taiwan, Hong Kong. . I don't know, this country is still, you know, uh very

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democratic, very free. People know, you know, we know, I mean uh… and I think you know, people in China know, even though they—they shut down Google's, or the Facebook, but people get news, you know, they know what happen outside.

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That's why we—we have so many people in China, you know, want to come to the States because they know the differences. So, the censorship is there.

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How long it will last? Probably for a while, yeah. When you first came to Austin? Was that kind of the first time you I guess learned about American politics or what was it like, kind of learning about these two political

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spheres at once? And how did you explore that? Uh about American politics, I didn't learn it until very late. It’s very complicated issue, right?

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Uh especially when you came to the con—con—on the country only have one party. You did not understand this dynamic uh of uh people's rights, election. Uh you know, the—the competition, you don't know, I

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think I—I learned that much, much later. Um, I will say that um probably until I really settled down have—had a job, you know, start talking to uh colleagues uh start to read

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newspaper, watch TV, more in details uh… then I learn about this. Um and then really more so because you know, after you get married the families, especially my husband family’s really involved, and

00:29:42.270 - 00:29:54.880

really care and really um pay attention to the—the politics into political changes. Um and the um… uh the issues between this two parties, the

00:29:54.990 - 00:30:10.570

ideology between these two parties, so I—I started to learn a lot. And after actually I was good about after I realize and learn about this uh political situation, uh these two parties, uh the their—their views, two

00:30:10.570 - 00:30:26.260

parties, to a lot of uh social issues. Uh and I can bring this in my class to—to discuss uh what happened in China, what happened in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and to—to compare um the differences, you know, and to

00:30:26.480 - 00:30:43.810

maybe, you know, discuss the future directions um of uh China and Taiwan, especially the, this coun— two places will be together or you know, or will be separated. Yeah. So, yeah so, politics um um,

00:30:46.300 - 00:31:01.570

it's a— it's a more complex issue that I didn't learn uh that much later. Um so I—right now, I have very good ideas about national, you know, situation, but locals. Local politics still very complicate for me.

00:31:01.570 - 00:31:17.160

I—I hear from my husband and his family talking about them, is um, I'm—I’m still learning. Yeah. So, you went straight from Austin to Houston? And was it always your intention to teach at the university level?

00:31:17.390 - 00:31:31.050

Right, right. When you, when you get a PhD, that's this you, that is hope to find a tenured position. So actually, I went to Trinity, Trinity first. I—I taught at Trinity for 7 years.

00:31:31.730 - 00:31:47.510

I was uh um actually I got the tenure there. Uh, I started the Chinese program with Dr. Field, right? Um… and then that but at that time, um, my girls,

00:31:48.320 - 00:32:04.690

one was one-year-old, the other one three years old. Uh, my husband is an architect. So, he first found a job in San Antonio. Um… but his design,

00:32:06.160 - 00:32:21.230

you know, he—he actually, his family is from Colombia so you know, he’s, he’s uh, half-half American, Colombian. Uh so he had this more Latino styles of uh design. He—he wants, he feels like he wants to go to bigger city,

00:32:22.110 - 00:32:32.280

his—his design with a lot of color, different shapes, will—will be more acceptable. Because San Antonio afterwards is a small place. People are more conservative.

00:32:33.810 - 00:32:48.300

So he um, he—he decided, came to, decided to come to Houston first. Um, so that’s the… uh… you know my girls were one years old, three years old, so we separate in two places.

00:32:48.810 - 00:33:00.770

You know, Houston San Antonio, so we—we—we try, see if we could work this out. So we tried um, first year the girls stayed with me and he came to San Antonio

00:33:01.090 - 00:33:18.760

every weekend. Um… until, until, you know, one day we realized maybe this was not a good way to have a family. Because uh, I remember there was a Monday in the morning when my husband was ready to, to,

00:33:19.430 - 00:33:30.530

to come back to the Houston, we couldn’t find my older daughter. To say goodbye so ho— eventually we finally, she hided herself. She did—she didn’t want to say goodbye to, to her daddy.

00:33:30.720 - 00:33:43.680

You know. So we said maybe we should try to get together. Uh, and then the second year we tried, he took care of the older one, I took care of the younger one. So each one, each one of us took care of one kid,

00:33:43.920 - 00:33:51.160

you know, two places. And then we tried to go back and forth. So eventually we think this was not the way to go.

00:33:52.190 - 00:34:04.660

So uh, I decided to give up, give up my uh the tenure position at Trinity. Which I really, I really liked Trinity a lot, you know. Uh, I like the students and focusing on undergraduate education so much.

00:34:05.870 - 00:34:20.450

Uh… and then I came, uh come to, come to Houston. We—I moved to Houston, at the—at the beginning I only taught one or two courses at Rice uh… and then eventually, became a full time position.

00:34:21.100 - 00:34:35.700

Uh so that’s um that’s the situation. I taught at Trinity seven years, and then I came to Rice, I think 2000, 2000, 2001? I’ve been here since then.

00:34:37.070 - 00:34:49.960

How did you meet your husband? UT Austin. He—he was in architecture and uh, I was in linguistics. Uh, it’s not the same field, but the buildings were very close .

00:34:50.970 - 00:35:06.110

So once we were introduced, uh, so we met each other often, so, so… Yeah because uh, if I hadn’t met him uh, I would go back home. You know, I didn’t plan to stay

00:35:09.410 - 00:35:21.120

here. Why not? In the states, because all my family are there, right? And uh, um, well, I w—I had a boyfriend over there too, so. Thought I’d go back.

00:35:22.370 - 00:35:34.480

So that’s the plan to go back. But then uh, we broke up, so. Um… yeah I mean it’s, it’s still, it’s still sometimes hard in a way when you were

00:35:34.940 - 00:35:48.440

alone here, parents are there. So now I tried to go there every year to see my parents, my family. Um, that’s what we did. When the girls are little, uh, every summer, either we

00:35:48.440 - 00:36:05.610

went to Taiwan or we went to my husband’s parents’, which they live in uh, Costa Rica. So two places. Yeah so to see the family. Um, as your girls have grown uh, um, grown older, um, I

00:36:06.900 - 00:36:17.990

guess, have you raised them with the same values you think you were raised with? Or, do you think they see the world differently than…? Mmm, I—I—I would say that, mixed.

00:36:18.850 - 00:36:38.440

Mixed. You know. Uh… for example the, the, uh, family concept. Uh, I think they have very strong, um, um… uh, understanding, stronger than their

00:36:38.500 - 00:36:50.650

father I think, about Chinese u—. They, they uh, they um, um, they really identify Taiwan as their second home. So they, summer, you know they want to go home.

00:36:50.650 - 00:37:03.310

It’s not like, I say “you have to go home to see your grandparents”. They want to go there. Um, every Sunday, uh we, they still do Skype with my parents. They, they, they can speak Chinese.

00:37:05.960 - 00:37:22.470

Uh… um, so they understand how important uh to have that conversation every Sunday with my parents, no matter how busy they are, they—they would do that. Which shows me they understand that, right? It’s not just obligation, they have to do it, they know,

00:37:22.470 - 00:37:41.060

they—they do this would make them happy and they are old, it’s what they should do. So I—I think they have that. Um… but they definitely are Americans. You know, uh… and I—I like that because they are

00:37:41.090 - 00:37:57.270

more independent, uh, they have their own thinking. Um… they are not, uh… afraid. Especially, even, even in this country, you know for women, girls, you know, you… you need to stand up

00:37:57.270 - 00:38:16.050

for yourself, you need to express your ideas, you cannot be too shy, you know too, too quiet. Uh… so, um, so y—s— sometimes they way, the way they dress themselves, the hair color, my—my parents

00:38:16.050 - 00:38:27.690

would think it’s outlandish. It’s just too much! You know, say “You have to cover yourself!” You know that kind of thing. So, but they—they have their own way. And uh… and I think it’s good.

00:38:28.220 - 00:38:44.610

You know, they, um, take the, the, the—the good part from both cultures. Right? Um… um… I remember that um…

00:38:48.180 - 00:39:06.560

there is one instance that uh my older daughter especially, uh, he—she realized that she, she looks different. You know, um. That’s the moment you know when they were in pre-K, which is near Rice, their

00:39:06.680 - 00:39:23.880

pre-K school, uh, the pre-K school, it’s a lot of really racial, um, multiracial environment. You know the teacher is Black, and there are Latino, there are Asians, you know, that kind of group. And then, and then they went

00:39:23.880 - 00:39:38.740

to Presby—Presbyterian, which is a private uh, elementary school. Um, so Catalina went there the first day. When she came home, she told me, say “Mommy,

00:39:40.160 - 00:39:56.150

I don’t like my skin color. I don’t like my hair color.” I say, “Well why?” you know. And then uh, so she sees, everyone is blonde color, white skin. And so I went back to talk to her teacher

00:39:56.690 - 00:40:11.790

right away, you know said, “why, why?” She said “Don’t worry, we will talk about this, you know we have to make everyone accepted.” But that’s the moment I think she realized the difference there. Um… they actually, uh, later on she made

00:40:12.040 - 00:40:26.180

a documentary about this. She’s just into movie right now. Um, so for—for, I think for our kids, um, sooner or later I think they have this um, you know, they have to identify themselves.

00:40:26.360 - 00:40:35.930

You know uh like my younger one, for long time she did not want me to speak Chinese to her in school. She just want— don’t want to hear anything in front of her friends.

00:40:36.660 - 00:40:46.830

Right? They have the stage. But—but right now they both in college. The older one is going to graduate soon. I—I think they are finding um… the comfortable

00:40:47.580 - 00:41:00.110

zone. You know, what—what part is from Taiwan, from China, what part is from, Latino for example, what part is American, how, how, how do they reconcile all these differences and accept it, right?

00:41:01.840 - 00:41:14.300

So um… um, and they—they learn a lot of um, growing up by themselves. Because a lot of Americans, American girls, how did they grow up? I am not clear.

00:41:14.300 - 00:41:25.290

You know, how you have shaved your hair, you have to do you hair, you have to— all these things I don’t know, uh, they have learned by themselves. Oh, another thing is I don’t make cakes .

00:41:25.460 - 00:41:38.470

I don’t know how to use an oven to make cakse, dessert. You know they say, “how come everybody make cookies?” I don’t know how they do it. So we don’t have ovens in—in China. You never hear people have ovens in China to make

00:41:38.810 - 00:41:49.540

cakes. So they had to do that on their own, learn everything. Just the little things, you know, so we learn from each other. And I never order pizza. ‘Cause you know just do, I never order pizza.

00:41:50.430 - 00:42:03.560

I—I—I don’t do dessert. Uh, after dinner we have fruit. Right, we just, we, after dinner, that’s Taiwanese do, we’re after dinner we have fruit. So they accept that, I mean gradually, right now they eat a lot of

00:42:03.640 - 00:42:17.660

fruit. You know, all her friends say, “I’ve never seen people eat so much fruit!” So, I think a good mix right now. Um, my girl, the older one, uh, is going to film, to film—film, she’s

00:42:17.660 - 00:42:35.120

going, she is going to uh, a film school for a master’s degree. And uh um, for example right now she’s really, uh focused on Asian American films. Uh you know, you know, the past two years the Asian, Crazy

00:42:35.260 - 00:42:49.900

Rich Asian people, and right now there is a Fare—uh the Farewell, Farewell. It’s talking about Chinese girl going back to China to say, to see her grandma, which is, you know, who—who—who is dying.

00:42:50.970 - 00:43:08.390

Uh, but anyway so—so, you know she, she finds her identity and then have some, um, ideas about um the, to—to, uh, maybe uh produce a film or making films, to give uh, minority

00:43:10.290 - 00:43:26.590

more voice. You know, Asian American or women more, more voice. And I think it’s all because the, the growing up in this family, right, different cultural, and—and see different ways, and so, develop these ideas for

00:43:27.520 - 00:43:41.470

future film production maybe. So… So, you said that your daughters identify as American, so how do you identify? Me? Mhm. I’m Chinese.

00:43:42.780 - 00:43:54.970

Uh, I don’t th—I don’t think I have identity problem. I mean, uh, why—why do I say that? Because I, I grew up, I didn’t come here until 25, 24, right? No I’m Chinese,

00:43:55.010 - 00:44:09.490

I’m Taiwanese. Um… probably it’s more usual to ask me Chinese or Taiwanese. Anyway I’m a, I’m a Chinese, uh but I start to think about this identity questions actually it’s because my students.

00:44:09.860 - 00:44:21.870

You know uh at Trinity and here, sometimes not very often, teach uh, Asian American courses. You know, talking about, we—we focus on history. But then I see my students have all these questions.

00:44:22.410 - 00:44:32.250

What I am, you know what am I? Uh, you know, which, where should I identify with? You know, so I actually discuss this question with my students.

00:44:32.780 - 00:44:45.360

But for myself, I never have this question. I, I American, I am uh uh, I have American passport. Right? And uh, uh, I will do my citizenship responsibility,

00:44:46.800 - 00:45:01.610

but I know deep down I am Chinese uh and I don’t have a question about that. But I appreciate the opportunity I can become a citizen here in this country to, you know, contribute to this country.

00:45:01.630 - 00:45:19.040

And uh, uh, you know, this country will contribute, get even better. So, I—I don’t have that question. Um, growing up with, like being a woman, or a Chinese woman,

00:45:19.110 - 00:45:38.290

was that as important to you or more important to you than, I guess your national identity…? Um… I think, I think uh, I—I guess that question is not more important, rather it’s what um,

00:45:40.230 - 00:45:56.810

what I am doing I guess, uh, for myself as a person, as a person. Um… I do think, its, I think it’s good for a woman to have their, have our own career.

00:45:56.810 - 00:46:16.830

The thing we, we want to achieve, want to do. Uh, I’m not saying being a housewife is, is not important, uh but for me, uh I try, I think, you know remember that um, when I came to the—came to Houston, I only taught one

00:46:17.020 - 00:46:25.080

class at Rice, right? And I, at that time a lot of my time was—was home with kids. Uh I was not satisfied with that.

00:46:25.490 - 00:46:41.680

I—I find it’s very boring. So I want to do something. So I try, um, to um, at Rice, try to get the job, become a full—full time position. Um, even—even though it’s not like Trinity, it’s professorship, but it’s

00:46:41.680 - 00:46:57.530

lectureship. But I still want to do research to have questions be answered, right? So, that’s how I keep myself, um, on to my career path and right now, uh, for example at Rice, uh even though

00:46:58.810 - 00:47:09.560

I’m, they call “teaching professor,” right? Your focus is still on teaching, but they give me more, um, support to do some research on Chinese language. So I really enjoy that.

00:47:09.590 - 00:47:25.760

I really enjoy that. So, uh, for me, uh, you know, uh, starting the age 25 came over here to do my master, PhD, and I always think, I—I want to,

00:47:26.690 - 00:47:42.140

um, I want to achieve something that’s more meaningful for me. Um, either, either it’s doing the research to uh answer some questions for Chinese education, or help to expand the Chinese ed—education

00:47:43.220 - 00:47:57.740

in the States, uh or uh answer some questions they have, you know, in linguistics. Um, that’s what I want to do. And I, and… and I

00:47:57.810 - 00:48:09.100

hope, I do hope that I have at least set examples for my girls. You know, uh, uh, you can be very satisfied and happy to have a

00:48:09.170 - 00:48:24.330

job you like and enjoy, to contribute, uh, and you can have a family at the same time. Yeah so, so for your question I think for—for women, you know how—how—how women, women should um,

00:48:26.060 - 00:48:36.920

build a—a life. Um, you don’t have to always just follow, you know, the traditional way of what people think you should be, right? You should follow your heart.

00:48:39.450 - 00:48:55.400

So. What are some of those research questions that are most interesting and important to you? Even if it’s super academic. Well right now for example I’m uh working in um, how people read Chinese,

00:48:56.900 - 00:49:13.890

read Chinese characters, read the text. We had, we have a lot of research already done on—for English, right? But English is alphabets, Chinese are characters, and the Chinese language is, all the words composed by

00:49:13.890 - 00:49:25.660

characters, not spelling. So I want to learn, especially my students, at the beginning level, like uh, after study Chinese for one year.

00:49:25.660 - 00:49:39.920

Uh, went to—they know some set of characters. How do they read Chinese based on the limited set of characters? Um, do they just read word by word, one character by character, or

00:49:39.920 - 00:49:51.650

they know how to separate uh, uh words in a sentence? Be—because in Chinese, there is no space in between words. Do they know how to do that? How do they do that? Right?

00:49:53.230 - 00:50:08.020

Um… and uh, um… also, we want to—so what we did is we ask them to think aloud when they read. When they read they have to think about what they’re thinking.

00:50:08.530 - 00:50:25.480

So we know what kind of strategy or skill they use, or what kind of strategy or skills they did not use. So once we have the data, we can use the data to design instructions, how to help them to read better, um… to

00:50:26.540 - 00:50:42.860

uh understand uh how to summarize uh, the text they read teach them some strategy and—and skill. So that’s the, the work I’m working on right now. Actually, I just finished the data, some data when I came here and now I’m going to look at

00:50:43.350 - 00:50:58.770

the data again It’s uh honestly, probably people think it’s boring, but I think it’s very fascinating and, you know, so this is one thing. Another thing we are working on is uh, um, the conversation between doctor and patient.

00:50:59.300 - 00:51:18.590

So um, we have um, a lot of students are pre-meds, uh but they also want to use their Chinese language, um in the future. So we recorded a lot of uh, uh doctor-patient conversation, I mean Chinese doctor and Chinese patient conversation and use the real

00:51:18.590 - 00:51:33.200

conversation, uh, to find the patterns there, what doctors say in the situation. And you know what kind of uh, questions, uh, patient may have. And use that as teaching material in the, in that class.

00:51:33.290 - 00:51:44.360

So, yeah… So what have you learned from teaching for so long? H—has the way you changed, or, has the way you approach teaching changed at all?

00:51:45.640 - 00:52:02.450

Yeah, I mean, uh, y—you have kept learning. That’s you know, that will get you always interested. You know you have to keep learning, learning what? Learning the uh, learning uh, the updatde pedagogy,

00:52:03.690 - 00:52:15.510

for example. Right? People have different ways to teach the same thing, you know, more effective ways to teach the same thing. So you have to learn from that. But you also have to learn from students. Uh, students are changing so fast.

00:52:15.810 - 00:52:28.590

I mean right now, I mean for example, um, I think it, I got to use more technologies in the classroom. You know so, uh, a lot of cellphone apps, um,

00:52:32.390 - 00:52:50.120

um, a lot of um, uh, how do you say? The pedagogies, you—you give them more space to let them to explore. You’re not the one always tells them the knowledge to teach them. So actually, um, talking about teaching, so for next

00:52:50.120 - 00:53:01.330

semester, I’m going to do a different thing, a different project, which I call Chinese cultural project. See in the past I would just teach them, right? I would show them the Chinese movie, I would teach them the

00:53:01.370 - 00:53:17.000

Chinese song, and show them the video clip about situation in China. But I think for this generation, it’s probably not very effective, you know, I will give project—new project. What do you want to learn about

00:53:17.000 - 00:53:31.420

Chinese culture? Okay you find your own topic. Okay, and then I provide you the resource. You go to find, uh, to answer your own question. So, I—th—do you think?

00:53:31.600 - 00:53:41.310

I think it’s more interesting for—for students, right? I mean uh so each one has a different topic. Maybe they watch different movies or different songs. But there is a question they want to answer.

00:53:41.660 - 00:53:54.250

They go to find an answer by themselves. I help them to find the resource. What do you think about, like what is the American attitude towards, towards language education or

00:53:54.400 - 00:54:12.370

multilingualism, and does that factor into how you teach or how you research? Um… I—I—I think, um, uh, this is a… No, no,

00:54:12.370 - 00:54:24.920

because this is really, you know, we—we are, we are teachers in the classroom. We cannot change that much, right? So when the student come to our classes, we are very happy, you know, to—they, these students, they must be interested in different culture,

00:54:26.170 - 00:54:40.600

mul—mult—multiculturalism. You know, you don’t have to really educate them uh alright, they already know, that’s why they come. The—the question how to get more students to come to our class. Um, but this is a lot things we—we uh, persona uh,

00:54:41.340 - 00:54:54.720

uh, you know, uh effort, cannot help too much. P—for example, for example at Rice, there’s no foreign, foreign language requirement. Not many universities do that.

00:54:55.260 - 00:55:08.690

You know Trinity, every student has to take at least one or two semester, UT Austin is two semesters, right? This is from the top. If the top tells—tells you say, from the top say “Oh its, you know, you don’t have to take foreign languages.” It’s

00:55:08.690 - 00:55:21.710

already a big message! Right? Uh, so it’s hard for us, um, teachers there to fight for this big concept. So this thing that students might even, you know, to take the uh language.

00:55:23.510 - 00:55:36.780

But I think, on the other hand, I think Rice has made so much effort to bring students from different countries, right? So we have students from China, Korea, they really make this place more international.

00:55:37.570 - 00:55:49.360

So, right now for example, the way I teach, I take advantage of this. For example, the project I’m telling you that I’m doing next semester, they will do their own culture project.

00:55:50.120 - 00:56:04.980

Now I have 60 students. It’s impossible for me to guide each student to answer their question. So I’m gonna to take advantage of all these inter—uh Chinese student, students from China, where I’m—I’m gonna to hire them, each one will take a

00:56:04.980 - 00:56:12.800

small group, so this person, these Chinese students will give them more information. They are all college age, right? They know if they’re interested

00:56:12.800 - 00:56:27.330

in this actor in China, he probably or she probably have more information than I do, right? So, that’s the way I can try to take advantage of that. And uh yes, I do hope more m—Americans will accept,

00:56:28.780 - 00:56:47.820

mult—uh, ethnitics and multiculturalism in this country. But uh uh, we need more people, you know, to get in this effort. Yeah. Have I been talking long enough?

00:56:48.180 - 00:57:04.630

Um, oh I was wondering about, so you’re on like a lot of committees that review tests, right, like the AP test. I don’t know if you’re still doing that or if that was the past, but, um, how do you think about testing now after having been a part of that actual process on

00:57:04.630 - 00:57:22.170

the inside? Um… yeah testing is uh, uh things, uh cannot really, sometimes cannot really, you know, gauge you or gauge your um, uh… capability.

00:57:23.220 - 00:57:42.120

Um… but um, uh, that’s the standard way. Everyone accepts that. Um… um, and they have their um contribution too. For example, AP Chinese started in

00:57:45.150 - 00:58:01.460

2007? Because of this test, uh, really helped to expand the Chinese language education in the States, right? More schools, more high schools open up, offer Chinese.

00:58:02.240 - 00:58:20.180

And right now, you will see more actually uh immersion schools, bilingual schools, teach both Chinese and English. Uh we have one school in uh Houston, it’s uh it’s immersion school and I at most college, at most high school have

00:58:20.290 - 00:58:32.760

Chinese classes. Uh, several junior highs have Chinese. So it has it’s contribution. Uh but then, this AP Chinese,

00:58:34.760 - 00:58:45.830

uh, for example, in the test, they do not require you to write characters. You just, you just have to type. And that has certain uh effect

00:58:45.900 - 00:58:58.420

too. Because uh, some high school teachers say, “if they—you don’t have to write characters, then why do I have to teach? They just have to type.” But uh, based on research, you know, does writing the

00:58:58.450 - 00:59:11.720

character really help you to recognize characters? Without this process, they take more efforts, energy to—to recognize the character. So you see how—how a test, you know, can affect way of you

00:59:11.770 - 00:59:22.040

teach, uh, and then—then the, significance of it. Right? Um, but you cannot do without it. You know? If you don’t

00:59:22.040 - 00:59:39.490

have a standard test, uh, what do you do? So it’s very uh, important for the committee member to make sure the test, the items, the format, can really um, evaluate students’

00:59:39.670 - 00:59:53.730

skills and capability. And fortunately here, in this country, you don’t just depend on tests, right? You still look at their other aspects: extracurriculars, other achievements.

00:59:54.470 - 01:00:05.530

So, which is more valid? You know then you look at China or Taiwan or Japan or Korea, there’s only one test on that day. So that’s even worse.

01:00:07.710 - 01:00:17.710

Um… but in classroom I have more—much more flex—flexibility. I don’t emphasize tests that much. I mean I—I have many

01:00:17.860 - 01:00:29.510

different projects. You know the written test is only, uh, 30 percent of it. Right? So, as a teacher you can do a lot of different things.

01:00:29.510 - 01:00:42.150

Um, to really, the student to use what they have learned, to show what they can do with the language. Do you think you’ll keep teaching for a long time? Yeah, I ask myself that question.

01:00:43.620 - 01:00:53.750

For now I think yes! I—I haven’t thought about to get retired or anything yet. As long as I have energy right?

01:00:55.050 - 01:01:03.030

I that—that’s great about uh being a teacher here, in the States. I don’t think there is a retirement age. I can teach

01:01:06.370 - 01:01:19.140

until I cannot walk. I think. But yeah I haven’t thought about that. Yeah. What else do you hope for in your future, whether just for your family or maybe for the country, or

01:01:19.210 - 01:01:35.100

for education? Um… I think for myself uh, that uh, I have still have a lot of things I would like to do once I retired, you know, I want to go see more different mountains, to hike,

01:01:37.840 - 01:01:54.310

uh… if possible maybe to pick up piano. I don’t know if I still can have the fingers, um, to enjoy more—more music, plant more flowers, plants. Um… and for the country, I

01:01:55.720 - 01:02:10.010

just hope to want to, we have different president. That’s my biggest hope. But um, uh, I—I—I think the States, I don’t know uh, you know if you look

01:02:10.190 - 01:02:25.990

around, um, everyone is, so, im—immigrant right? A lot of people I mean, nowhere, even you—you several generations live here, you came from somewhere.

01:02:27.090 - 01:02:39.500

This is really a country of immigrants. And I, I do hope you know for the future of the country, everyone has this idea and will—to cherish it, value it. I mean why, why against it?

01:02:40.260 - 01:02:56.300

Right? And uh, uh… and it’s also a little bit Chinese Confucius idea you know, when you have a—when you yourself have a lot, sh—share a little bit. You know it will not hurt you that much.

01:02:57.690 - 01:03:11.760

You know, be a little bit generous. Um, this is very rich country. Um, a lot of space. Um, we—we share. Um… so

01:03:11.940 - 01:03:27.430

that’s you know, the hope for—for—for the States, the future, um, um. Most people have this idea to value that, uh, the immigrant, immigrants, every one of us, how much we bring to this country. We learn from everyone.

01:03:27.790 - 01:03:45.060

Do you also think about the future of Taiwan or China a lot? Yeah. Um… you know if you ask me this question you say, ten years ago before Xi Jinping, I do see

01:03:45.060 - 01:04:01.870

there’s maybe a hope, uh, this two places will be, be, work together. Uh because essentially was they— they were more open up. Uh, but now they went back. Right, basically went back uh to be more, more

01:04:02.660 - 01:04:17.690

controlled, and more rigid, so I don’t see—because uh when I say, I’m Chinese, because my father is from China. And uh, um, I don’t even speak Taiwanese that well. I understand but I don’t speak that well,

01:04:17.840 - 01:04:32.940

so all my family are there too. Uh and that’s, and uh, um, so I do hope, you know, Taiwanese and Chinese will become one family in the future. But, we don’t want to become part of communist party, right?

01:04:33.310 - 01:04:41.870

We want to be a democratic country. So if China can change to a more democratic society, yes, we can work together. Like East and West--