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Today is May 26, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive. Today we're so honored to be interviewing Mrs.

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Medha Karve. Thank you so much Mrs. Karve for speaking with us. Oh, my pleasure. Um, to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, probably starting from when

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and where were you born? Well, I was born in Mumbai, India, in the year 1957. And I lived there till I was nine years old.

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And at that time, my father who was a scientist, he was a— he worked for the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai, at that time called Bombay; did a like sabbatical— excuse me— at Yale University, and so brought us his family

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over what would be my mother and my two siblings. I'm the– I'm the eldest and I have a younger sister and a brother. Um, thinking we would just be there for maybe two years. And he ended up staying and he had some

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pretty interesting projects at Yale. He's a geochemist and it was the time when they did the first landing on the moon. And he was one of the first scientists to study the

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moon rocks. So anyway, he was really into his research and his Institute kept calling him back. And he said, "No, give me one more year, six-month extension." And finally, he had to choose between

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staying in the US or going back. And just around that time, they had opened up immigration to Asians, as you know, you know, there was restriction on Asian immigration all pretty much through the nine— you know, the,

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from probably late 1800s to what was like 19, early 1960s. Was not till mid 1960-65 that they passed the, the act that allowed people from Asia to

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get green cards, and my father was one of the first ones in that. And so we were one of the first Asian immigrants of that time. And so we ended up staying there in New Haven, Connecticut. And eventually, my father

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found a research position, working for a nuclear reactor– at a nuclear reactor in Puerto Rico. So we moved there for about a year and a half.

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And realized that, that's really not the place where he wanted to raise a family. And so move back to, move to California, he got a position with an environmental research company, and at that time, they were getting a lot of super

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fun contracts. So we moved to the Bay Area. And I started my college, my freshman year in college at UC Santa Cruz, and stayed in California all the way through my graduation.

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And until I got married to my husband Shashank, and we moved, he brought me sc— kicking and screaming to Houston, Texas; and I've been here now for 40 years. Both my children were born here, we lived in the

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Woodlands, one of the first residents of the Woodlands. And so that's where we are— we've been at. We basically feel very much at home in Texas. And so we've been here, my kids have grown, I have

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grandchildren now. And actually, we are planning to leave the Woodlands as soon as our home in the city is built. So, we are scaling down

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from our huge home here and moving into the city, which I'm really looking forward to not only because of all the cultural activities and proximity to museums, and especially the Museum of Fine Arts, where I've been a docent

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for 12, 15 years. And that will allow me to resume my activities there and be close to my grandchildren who live in the Heights. So, kind of in a nutshell, that's my life

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so far. What would you like to know? Yeah, absolutely. I'm so fascinated that in your life, that just the brief introduction you gave, it's so transnational

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and so trans-geography. Tell us a little bit about the kind of experiences moving around and comparison with different cultures.

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And . Sure. Well, you know, I think the big— now when I reflect back on my childhood, I think the biggest, the most traumatic

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part of my life, I think that caused me a lot of angst and I didn't realize it at that time, but was the move from India to the United States when I was nine years old. Because, you know, at that time in India, we lived in a

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joint family, lived with my grandparents—my father's parents— had lots of aunts and uncles and cousins and always just– just, you know, the idea of a nuclear family was strange, okay.

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It was always extended family and always people dropping by, and there's festivals, and you're just, you know, you don't have a lot of things. There's not material-based, it's just very family, society,

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your– your community. And moving to the US was very traumatic, because all of a sudden, you're yanked away from that, you know. You don't really understand—you're

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still a kid. And I didn't realize how much I missed that, and how, how much of an impact that had on me, you know. Loneliness, that's the first time I felt lonely. Yeah. And I think my parents felt lonely too.

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But, you know, they're adults, they were able to deal with it. So this was, it was hard. It's very hard. And I really sympathize with other

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immigrants and I, you know, read a lot about immigrant experiences. And that is the one thing you feel very— that–that's a common thread is the number one: the loneliness. Number two: feeling like you don't belong because at that

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time, in 1966-67, I mean, there weren't— there was no diversity. You know, you would be the only other, or the only non-white person in your class or what have you.

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And you just felt, you know, culturally, racially, in terms of, you know, just, just very alien. In fact, that's the– the name that I

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think they're trying to change now is getting your— being alien, your alien immigrant. So yeah, so that– that really has, what was the most important— was really the most

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traumatic thing I think, the– the very. And also being the eldest. My family, my brother and sister were like four and five years younger than me. I, like many old, older immigrant children, felt like I

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had to shepherd my family through a lot of things. You know, my parents were— my dad was in his early 40s, my parents were not the, the kind of bigger immigrants that you find, say in the last 20 years, who are say more

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sophisticated, more anglicised or westernized. Know, you know, with this interconnected world, what to believe, what h-how things are. But they you know, of course, like most immigrants, they had strong accents.

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And many times I had to interpret for them, like they would— I remember going to the grocery store with my mother and asking—she, she did speak English, although her English was not perfect, but she definitely spoke and read English.

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But I felt, you know, I had to be sort of the interpreter. And so at the age of 9 and 10, that's a lot of responsibility for a child. And so I've always felt very responsible for my parents and my siblings.

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And it kind of— that move really took me out of my childhood. And I became a little adult at the age of 10. So 9 and 10.

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So it was a, yeah, very significant. So that was one thing, mo— Finally, after, after a couple of years in New Haven, we really enjoyed it there because it was a university setting.

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We started —we met a lot more people of different backgrounds. We lived in university housing, and so that made a big difference. You were with other people who are of the same,

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not necessarily background but experience. And we–we ended up really loving it there and it was hard to move from there. And that was— I was in high school and moving to Puerto

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Rico was really— was not good. For any high schooler to move in the middle of high school is hard. And I— there in Puerto Rico, we lived in a pla— in a city called Mayagüez, which is on the

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west, southwest coast of Puerto Rico. And we didn't speak Spanish, we really just didn't know what to expect. And it was– it was very, again, kind of a cultural shock.

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And part of that was we went to school on an Air Force Base. All the kids whose parents worked at this research— University of Puerto Rico research facility, and they all were bused to this Air

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Force Base called Ramey Air Force Base, which was about a 45-minute bus ride up mountainous, you know, road. And for the first time we were— I was exposed

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to other military kids. And that was very different, very different mindset, very—they're used to moving around and I just felt even more lonely there.

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Yeah. And so, fortunately, we were only there for a year and a half. And I think what I regret now is that I didn't embrace the culture there. Like, it was really an opportunity.

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But I think I was so stuck in being miserable and wanted to be miserable, that I didn't really embrace it. And my dad soon enough got a position in the Bay Area. And we were very happy to move there.

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And, of course, by then the Bay Area— this is in the early 70s— it was—no it was, what, 197—no, mid-70s, 1975, 1976—was, was getting pretty diverse.

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I mean, it was, you know, and I was going to college, and yeah, so that really, you know, my parents really, really loved it there. And so that

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really was my home until I got married about at the age of 25, so say about, I don't know, eight years later. And yeah, so those were the two things. It's always difficult.

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It's being different. You know, I know that is– that is the recurring theme in all immigration stories. And even when I moved to Houston.

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And my husband's in the oil business, he's Indian too and, you know, we were introduced as with an arranged introduction, as a lot of Asians, Asian families are that way, Indians in particular. And he had come here to do his

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graduate work, he was at MIT. And he was suppose—I was reluctant to meet him, because I was very Americanized by that time. And my parents were like, "No, but he's from a good

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family. He's from our community. He's so, so well-educated. And he's got a great job in Houston" dadada. And I said, "Uh..." I kept putting it off, putting it off.

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And finally I said, "Okay, I'll talk to him" just to get my mother off my back. And he called me and we just had long conversations on the phone. And he was in Houston, I was in San Francisco.

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And then he decided, he said, "Why don't we meet?" And so he sent me an airplane ticket to come visit him in Houston. You know, he was very much a gentleman, you know, made accommodations for me and

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everything. And I was only gonna stay maybe two or three days. And I ended up staying for 10 days. So, and the rest is history. So, yeah, so that's kind of a, a

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brief summary of my experience. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Um, before I kind of delve into your kind of really

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interesting, super into your love story with Mr. Karve, can I also ask you about your earlier life? How you, yourself coming here at nine years old?

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Did you deal with accents as well? Because I know you mentioned your parents deal with accents. Yeah. Well, you know, I went to an English school in Mumbai. It was an English, I mean, it was actually a

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Scottish Mission School that one of the you know, the one of those schools that the British established, and so I knew English very well. Yeah. Now I'm pretty sure I must have had a bit of an accent.

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But as a child, you know, you just pick up very easily, you know, the surrounding speech. And my brother, my younger brother, and my sister didn't know any English.

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They were just like three and four years old. And— but they picked it up really fast. Just children do. Yeah, yeah. So I don't feel— I never felt that my speech

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was different or what have you. But I did feel—you know my mother wore a sari. She always wore a sari. Never did she ever wear Western clothes.

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And she wore you know, she had the, the dot, the kumkuma, which is a mark of being a Hindu and a married woman. And so it was— people I

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know thought it was strange. They would stop and ask you, "Oh, what does that mean? Oh"—or you know, give you second looks and glances. And that was—for me as a child— was embarrassing.

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I am, you know, ashamed to admit that I really didn't want her to come to my school, and for my peers to see my mother, because I was afraid they would make fun of her.

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And one time she did come and there were some boys that were giggling and laughing at her. And that really hurt me. And— but that's something that, you know, children...

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I'm, I'm so happy that now my grandchildren—even my children and my grandchildren didn't have to go through the kind of experience I did.

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Yeah. So things I think are progressing. Yeah, definitely encouraging to know these differences across generations. And also, how do you see like people's reactions towards the way— as you mentioned that

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back there in New Haven, in Puerto Rico, it wasn't very diverse. Like, how do people treat— did you feel like there was any kind of distinguished time or incident that you and your parents were treated differently because of your appearance or the accents?

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And I'm also curious, since you yourself, appear not like 100% Indian, if I can— . Yeah, so did you feel like there's any time that you were like,

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back then, that you were treated differently because of that? Um, no—at that time, no. You know, people would— I've had— my mother is— both my parents are full Indian.

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My mother is very—the part of India we come from in the community, you know, where we're on the call. So we— our community is known to be light-skinned. And my mother was very, very fair and was considered a

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beauty you know, sort of so to speak. And you know, but she wore sari, she, you know, we are come in all different colors, Indians.

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Europe, if you're from the south, you tend to be darker. If you're from the north, you know, you have different features. The coastal people are different.

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So, it's, you know, we're not— I would have to explain that to people because people would say to me, "Oh, well, you don't look"— well at that– at that time when I was a young girl, they didn't know what Indians look like.

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I mean, that was—this is more something that I get more recently, you know. As you know, people, Americans— I've seen more of Indians and stuff and, but at that time, no, not really.

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I think they just saw me—you know my name was so different: Medha. They would, I would cringe every time the teacher would have to go down the roster on the first day of school and say my name. It's “Medha” . Medha, M-E-D-H-A.

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And she would, he was always a woman. And actually I went to Catholic school for, you know, a big part of that time. And the nuns would like, "Med, Med, Med-Ha?" you know.

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“Ka-ka?” you know. And my last— my maiden name is Kharkar, K-H-A-R-K-A-R. And so you know, I was very embarrassed about that.

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I didn't— I wish I didn't have a name like that. But no, I, you know, very, I think I've had comments. I remember one time— oh, a really good friend of mine I had in junior high.

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She, you know, all my friends were American. There weren't any Indians and I didn't have a lot of friends. But the ones I did have, you know, they were really good friends. I mean, it's usually— all I needed

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was one friend. And that was enough. Anyway, this– this one girl, her name was Debbie, and she was a good friend. And we would, you know, spend a lot of time together.

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And she was— she didn't have a mother, her mother had died when she was quite young and was raised by her father, and she had brothers. And there was a lady who was sort of like her mentor.

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And she kept saying, "Oh, I've been telling"—whoever, this woman, whoever she's this one, she's close to—"all about you, my Indian friend, my Indian friend. And so she wants to

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meet you." And so at one point— I don't know— I met her. I don't quite— don't really even remember, you know, what she looked like or anything. And it was— she was very pleasant, it was fine.

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Not a big deal. I must have been 13 maybe. And then Debbie said to me the next day— and it's funny how this has stayed with me for so long— she said to me, "Oh, my" whatever,

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her– her friend said "She was so happy to meet you." And I said, "Oh, well that's good. That's nice. She seems really nice." And she said to me, she goes, ""When you kept saying your Indian friend, I kept thinking of a small, dark, ugly-looking thing.

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And—but your friend is so pretty."" And Debbie thought she was paying me a compliment by saying that, and I was so upset by that. And after that, I

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decided I would always tell people that I'm Indian. That that is not, you know, I mean I was very— I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know what to say. But it stayed with me.

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And—but I know from that point on, I was much more vocal about my, my ethnicity. So yeah, I think we all have these stories. But it just— it stems from ignorance.

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It's ignorance, you know. And I don't take it personally, I don't, you know, I just— that's just how they are. That's how it is when people are not

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exposed to people of other backgrounds and, you know, other races and cultures. So yeah. The one thing I did get was what people would always ask me about: the dot on my mother's forehead, you

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know. And what surprised me was that some people actually thought it was a ruby that had been stuck there. And I said, "Well, how would a ruby stick on your forehead?" You

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know, it's like, not like they dug a little, you know, a hole in her skull and stuck a ruby in there. So there were some– some interesting comments.

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Yeah. But, you know, that's, that was that, that was 1960s, early 70s. But, you know, I and now, I just see— although, you know, there's still descrim—of course,

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there's still discrimination. There's still all of this, especially lately with all the violence against Asians, you know, and it was very disconcerting to me to see that

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we've– we've made so much progress, and at the same time we're so behind, you know. So, yeah. Wow, thank you for sharing that.

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That's really empowering to hear that you were being vocal about— yeah, like situations like that. And next, I'm really curious about as you also mentioned, you're very Americanized, even

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though it's the cultural roots and your ethnicity you're very proud of. Can you share with us some of the experiences in these kind of intertwined identity within you, how it'd impacted your— like probably later on,

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awareness about your identity and your support for South Asian art in arts and cultural scenes? Well, I've always been very proud of my heritage and other my— the history, the cultural history of India.

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I think, you know, I always felt— now, you know, people have recognized that it has come to light, you know. At that time, when I was a kid, when I was young, when I was a child, the, the idea of India was a

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starving country with very poor people who would just, you know, where it was all hand to mouth, and there wasn't much more beyond that, you know.

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And I guess I just wanted to dispel that, you know. I knew there was, you know, people needed to know there's a lot more. And one thing I will say— I know I'm rambling a little bit, but I'll go back to

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my childhood in India. And it's funny because I was so proud of being an Indian. And at that time, I was, you know, whatever,—6, 7, 8 years old—and you always sang the national anthem at

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school. And even in a movie theater: everybody sang the national anthem before the movie was shown. And one of— I remember the wars that India

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had. India had a war with China. And then there was a war with Pakistan while I was a young girl, and I remember the war. I mean, it was like, everybody became very patriotic.

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It was just— I understand that mentality, you know. Now people, your people, the nationalism, and I think I just embraced it, you know. I knew I had it. I,

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to this day, I can recite the Indian National Anthem. And it's funny, because my husband is Indian. And he's grew up there. I mean, he came here for graduate school.

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And I'm more Indian than him. And so he's always teasing me that, "What you are so"—"Come on, you haven't been in"—I-I visited India often, of course, but it's like—"Why is it you're so so bent on India?

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You know, it's so dear to you and I"—and it's like, yeah, it is, it's just my experience, you know. I'm more like that than— I don't think either of my parents, they kind of like wanted to forget it, "Okay, we've got this

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new life." My brother and sister were much younger, so they don't have that connection. But I have always had just a very deep connection to India. And I think I just see, when I was growing up, there was so much

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love that I experienced, you know, I have such such fond memories. And it's it's like, whenever I go there, I feel I belong, you know.

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It's just one of those things. Yeah. So I don't know how I got on to this. What did— what was the question you asked me? Oh, we're just talking about the kind of— .

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Yeah. So I've always supported, you know, been wanting to do things for India. I'd seen the disparities. I've seen, you know, how, really, you know, people struggle. And my family in India is not rich,

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they were middle class, upper-middle class. It was, I saw—seeing them struggle, my father decided to remain in the US because— to give

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a better life to his children, he felt there were more opportunities here. Um, and so but you know, yeah, it's been always very— it's very dear to me. India is very dear to me and I've had the opportunity to

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study a lot about the art. And we had a wonderful, wonderful exhibition a couple of years ago that my husband and I supported called, Peacock in the Desert.

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It was the royal treasures from Jodhpur. And it was wonderful and I just reveled in being— taking people around and showing them, you know, what there was and talking about the history and, and the

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culture and, you know, showing them a side of India that, you know, perhaps they were not aware of. So, that's been that. And now what we do is— we do— we made

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a gift to the museum to support South Asian artists. And so to bring programming, basically, to, to Houston, and we had one, a recent one. Too bad with COVID, things

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have been really slow, but I'm hoping that, you know, more— there will be, you know, more programs to educate and to just enlighten people about, about India. So, yeah.

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That's fascinating. And thank you for all the contributions you've made for people to be experiencing arts and especially South Asian art. And before I jump on to the next question, can—by the way, I'm sorry

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for not pronouncing your name correctly earlier on. Can you— Oh no, don't worry. It's a hard, it's a hard sound to make because it's

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M-E-D-H-A. So it's 'Made-ha.' And, you know, but I'm used to everybody calling me 'Maida.' Because that d-h sound is extremely difficult for people who, for Americans or non-Indians to do make, you know.

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Just as I'm sure with Chinese names, you know, it's, it's difficult, right? Thank you for being understanding. Can you tell us a little bit of the meaning or if there's any,

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like, metaphor behind your name? My, my name Medha means— in Sanskrit—means intelligence. Yeah. Wonderful. So all our names are Sanskrit names, Indian names, and they all have pretty significant deep meanings.

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Yeah. Thank you. And I'm also fascinating as you—fascinated by earlier on, when you were talking about how you met Mr. Karve.

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Oh, okay. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about like, dating and the family culture? Dating back then?

00:31:10.610 - 00:31:24.220

Yeah, my parents were pretty liberal. You know, they knew that their children were raised here. And there was, you know— they had to adapt. They were and they weren't, you know.

00:31:26.340 - 00:31:40.950

They paid lip service to it, let's put it that way. They would always say, "Oh, no, it's fine. We don't really, whoever she marries, that's okay. Our children, you know, as long as they're happy," but you know, down in the

00:31:40.950 - 00:31:55.600

deep of their hearts, they wanted us to marry not just Indians but Indians from their community. So that was important to both my parents. And I did date some, you know, in, in college, and

00:31:56.990 - 00:32:11.160

my parents met maybe one boyfriend that was kind of a serious boyfriend who was not Indian. But my, my mother, and—oh, this is what was the thing, I think.

00:32:11.160 - 00:32:20.430

My, my parents had a lot of visitors, you know, Indians, I mean, coming to the Bay Area, San Francisco and all that, it was just we always had a string of visitors.

00:32:20.820 - 00:32:34.710

And so one time, there was this doctor and his wife, who are my, you know, our family doctors back in India, you know. He and his wife came on a tour. And so they stopped and I was at home,

00:32:35.400 - 00:32:50.700

and they wanted to set me up. They kept saying, "Oh, she's"—whatever, I was like maybe 19—"Oh, she needs, oh she needs to meet so-and-so, so-and-so." I just would kind of joke about it. And she said to me, she said, "A

00:32:51.740 - 00:33:07.580

nice Indian girl like you, only an Indian boy's deserving of you." It was like put in such a way that they didn't want me to, like, you know, throw myself away to somebody who

00:33:07.580 - 00:33:19.640

wasn't deserving of me. So, my mother used to use that too, you know, that, that remark to say, "Now no, you need to do—" you know. And so there is— you're striding

00:33:19.640 - 00:33:32.670

two different cultures, you know? So, um, yeah, my parents tried—actually, my husband was really the first Indian guy I met, maybe second Indian guy I met. Yeah.

00:33:33.560 - 00:33:43.090

And it just was— I mean, we didn't meet each other person, like face-to-face. He was in Houston, he called me. He was like really cool.

00:33:43.290 - 00:33:57.620

You know, I always had this impression of Indian men being like, of my dad's generation, you know, being very staid, and, you know, serious and not, you know, not joking or very kind of patriarchal.

00:33:58.080 - 00:34:11.030

And he wasn't like that at all. You know, he was just easy to talk to, joking this that and, you know. So it was, you know, when I told him things that I said, "I don't know if you want to really meet me.

00:34:11.150 - 00:34:23.360

I'm too Americanized, I'm not gonna, you know, follow this. If you think you're, you know, you're looking for somebody who's more traditional. I'm not like that." So I put all these things to just dissuade him from

00:34:23.360 - 00:34:36.580

wanting to meet me. But he wanted to meet me and we, we had like long conversations on the phone for a couple of weeks. And then he said, "We need to meet." So, that's, that's how it was.

00:34:36.650 - 00:34:49.110

And then when we did meet, we were attracted to each other. That's important. So, you know, otherwise, you can have a friendship, but if there's not that attraction or chemistry, then it's hard.

00:34:49.260 - 00:35:04.860

But luckily, fortunately, it was a pleasant surprise to meet him. Yeah. It's such an adorable story. Thank you very much. And next I'm also curious about

00:35:04.860 - 00:35:13.990

how dating has been in your upcoming generations like your . My son and daughter. Yes. Well, both my kids were born in the Woodlands.

00:35:15.500 - 00:35:30.250

And, in fact, it's funny that, you know, my husband and I were just talking about that yesterday because we had gone to— gone out to eat. And we saw all these— the Woodlands High School, I think they just had their graduation yesterday— and

00:35:30.250 - 00:35:41.470

they were all, you know, all the graduates and their parents were around and everything. So we were like reminiscing about our kids and, with my daughter.

00:35:42.460 - 00:35:54.670

She's the older one, she is, what, 34 right now. 34? 35? Oh my God, I lost track. She really embraced high school, embraced school.

00:35:55.010 - 00:36:07.560

She was very popular, she was in a lot of in— a big tennis player, this that. I made it a point 'cause when we lived in the Woodlands, again, we were like the only Indian family then.

00:36:07.560 - 00:36:21.410

There were not very many. It's quite much more diverse now, but at that point, you know, when my kids were growing up, they were one of the only non-white kids, that's how, you know, that's how it was.

00:36:21.410 - 00:36:32.020

But knowing my experience, I never wanted—I wanted to make sure that they participated in everything, you know. And if there

00:36:32.020 - 00:36:48.530

was— I— very, very few encounters where I thought there was something amiss, you know, like, there was discrimination there, whatever, very, very few. But, and once in a great while, the kids would come and tell me,

00:36:48.530 - 00:37:02.830

you know, so-and-so said something that didn't sit well or was sort of mean. And I would say, "You know, what, that's their problem. It's not your problem. That's their problem." So I never wanted them—they knew they were

00:37:02.830 - 00:37:12.800

proud of being Indian. We always went— my, my husband's parents lived in India, so we would go every other year to visit. And the parents, you know, his mother would

00:37:12.800 - 00:37:28.400

come visit, we always—and of course, my parents were in California. So they're very knowledgeable, and, you know, very familiar with Indian culture. And so they didn't have the stigma that I thought I had, you know,

00:37:28.910 - 00:37:45.600

and I think it was also because I was so assimilated that I was able to befriend the parents of their friends, you know. I was active in the school so people, you know, they saw me. I just thought it was important, you know, for my kids'

00:37:45.600 - 00:38:00.760

well-being, that I be very proactive and involved. And I think that helped a lot. As far as the dating and all of that goes, my daughter, yeah, she— I don't know if— she didn't have a

00:38:00.760 - 00:38:14.160

boyfriend in high school, per se. She did go out a lot with friends. And she went—we were talking—she said, you know, she went to every prom and dance and social event there was; she was totally into the high school scene.

00:38:14.500 - 00:38:25.770

My son, on the other hand, was not. He, he enjoyed it. He was a big tennis player so he, you know, he had something to anchor himself to.

00:38:26.150 - 00:38:42.620

But I think he felt more— as not as comfortable as she was, you know. He had a lot of friends, it wasn't that. It was just— it's come to light later on in the years when I talked to them, that,

00:38:42.620 - 00:38:54.480

you know, "How did you feel"—when I asked them now—"How did you— how was it going to school? How was it here?" And I think with my son, what happened with— just around when he was, when kids are most vulnerable,

00:38:54.480 - 00:39:04.470

you know, they're like, junior high. They're not, they don't have the maturity yet. They're still in that strange kind of adolescent stage.

00:39:04.860 - 00:39:17.840

And that's when 9/11 happened. And when 9/11 happened, Jay, my son, was in junior high, and, or in seventh grade. And people thought he was Muslim, you know.

00:39:18.520 - 00:39:32.310

And there were comments made to him, you know, and he was very, very upset. That was really one of the, the most, yeah, hard times for him, you know?

00:39:32.830 - 00:39:49.130

And he said, "You know, these, these kids, they think they're so holier than thou and, you know, they think that because they're Christian, they're b—, you know, better, better than everybody else. And they're saying things, you

00:39:49.130 - 00:40:04.820

know, and I have to tell them that I'm not Muslim, but still, I just think it's a bad thing to say. Why are they saying that, you know. Saying, "Oh, you guys did this, you guys bombed us."" And I said, "Jay, they're just ignorant.

00:40:05.700 - 00:40:18.890

They don't know. And it was a very small group of people. And it doesn't mean that that's representative of Muslims, you know." So it really was kind of very dramatic

00:40:18.890 - 00:40:29.940

for him, traumatic for him, to hear this. And after that, it just made a change. It made a difference. He became very, sort of— he didn't want to hear

00:40:30.410 - 00:40:41.760

anything about Christianity, you know. He thought it was a farce because, he said, "All these people, these girls, who are all they're going to Bible Study and doing this and doing that.

00:40:41.980 - 00:40:53.770

They're such hypocrites, you know." And so that made a—and so he was not in tune to being in Texas, being there. He wanted to just get out.

00:40:54.510 - 00:41:09.290

And then I remember when he got his pickup— he got a pickup truck, he did, when he turned 16. But he made— he went and got a Darwin symbol to put on it. So

00:41:09.510 - 00:41:20.860

he was kind of a rebel, you know. Not to say that he was not happy. He was happy. But he always sort of gravitated toward the kids that were the not traditional type,

00:41:21.130 - 00:41:30.920

you know? Yeah. So that was a difference between my, how, how different kids handle, right, handle those sort of situations?

00:41:30.950 - 00:41:42.670

Yeah. Well, I'm sure your son will also have fascinating oral history stories to tell. Oh, yeah, the kids always do. They only share so much with their parents, right?

00:41:42.860 - 00:41:55.070

Yeah. Yeah, if we can interview him, that would be fascinating as well. Well, he lives in Seattle. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:55.710 - 00:42:08.170

And I guess moving on, since we're also fascinated by your contribution in the art scene. And this is also part of the people of art special collection that we're capturing narratives

00:42:08.340 - 00:42:22.470

for. Can you tell us a little bit about what's the first encounter for you in the arts? Like, what, what draw you to art, particularly? Well, you know, I've always loved art.

00:42:22.720 - 00:42:35.230

You know, I always used to doodle and draw and you know, do some little bit of painting, drawing, this that. I'm a really—I'm like I'm kind of like a jack-of-all-trades. I do a lot of crafty

00:42:35.230 - 00:42:46.360

things, sewing, this, you name it. And, you know, I just always admired how paintings— I mean, just what it took to produce something.

00:42:46.460 - 00:43:05.340

And a lot of times you don't— I never had any formal art training, like, no art history, or whatever, but I just always really appreciated, just, you know, what people could make, create. And I, well, one thing I should mention is during my married

00:43:05.340 - 00:43:22.660

life, we— our family lived in Singapore for a couple of years. My husband was working on a project there. And I just loved, you know, all the, the Chinese scroll paintings and, you know, I would wander in and out of galleries

00:43:22.800 - 00:43:42.320

and you know. So I started purchasing art that I just like. So I have, like, I have a silk screen, a Chinese silk screen; I have a couple of paintings from there; I have something that was one of those long scrolls that

00:43:42.460 - 00:43:54.600

was given to me by one of my husband's colleagues. I just, you know, I have a little bit of sculpture. I have different things but I'm not a collector, you know.

00:43:54.640 - 00:44:07.050

I don't like go out and say, "Okay, this is the artist I want, this is that," I just don't— it's if something spoke to me, I have it. So I have, you know, just art from whenever I travel, I

00:44:07.050 - 00:44:24.870

always would, you know, buy something that spoke to me from my travel. So it's not necessarily, you know, valuable per se, but I have like things, just drawings in one of my, in my powder room or one area, which are street art, you know.

00:44:24.870 - 00:44:36.780

Like drawings from when I was in Bali, you know, that an artist was selling on the sidewalk, to a painting that I got at a very nice gallery, you know. So it's just if it

00:44:36.780 - 00:44:49.890

speaks to me, I had it. And so I've just always appreciated the talent and the perseverance that it took to create this and when you've tried yourself to create something and you see how difficult it is

00:44:50.210 - 00:45:05.350

to cut, then you appreciate other artists. So that was what it was and then I, you know, I always—I like to go visit exhibits and things like that. And once my children were gone, a friend of mine

00:45:05.810 - 00:45:17.640

had—I knew she was a docent at the Museum of Fine Arts. And I said, "You know, I have time now. I think I'd like to, you know, see what this is about." So I went to the training, and

00:45:17.640 - 00:45:28.270

I just really enjoyed it. I enjoyed learning about different exhibits coming through, the art the museum had. I loved imparting, you know, taking kids around.

00:45:28.770 - 00:45:44.710

I was basically—I was in the doing children's tours, mostly. But I remember when the exhibit from the National Gallery of Taiwan came, I was— I trained to do those tours, and I

00:45:44.770 - 00:45:55.480

loved it. I just learned so much about China, and I just enjoy it, you know. I do what I enjoy. So, and right now,

00:45:55.480 - 00:46:08.350

I'm a little sad because it's been on year and a half that the museum has not done any tours, you know. We're not, there's a ____ yet, but I'm looking forward to—hopefully in the next year, you know, it'll open up.

00:46:09.230 - 00:46:28.330

And I think art is such a wonderful teaching medium, you know, to make people aware of different cultures, different eras, history. I think it's just a wonderful medium to impart information, knowledge and, and gain that—to

00:46:30.040 - 00:46:44.240

know that, you know, we're all the same, we're all very interconnected. And this is a way to appreciate other people, people different from you, you know, and just humanity.

00:46:45.300 - 00:47:00.400

So that's basically what I feel. That's super inspiring. And I totally agree that only in arts or any kind of creativity, kind of activity in humanity

00:47:00.400 - 00:47:18.300

that you see culture and this common, common traits and humanity, that is— Yeah. And can you share with us some of the experiences in arts, either it's an, a tour that you've done for

00:47:19.260 - 00:47:34.300

the visitors, or an art studio visit, or an art exhibition that kind of took you away that you wanted to tell us about? Um, well, let me get—go back to the one, the National Gallery

00:47:35.930 - 00:47:51.470

of— from China, the, the exhibit that was there then. And one of the things that was— really struck me was how sophisticated the Chin—the artists from China

00:47:51.660 - 00:48:05.610

from back in, you know, you're talking what, in BC, you know. I mean, way before that, you know, like 10,000 years ago, you know, what they were coming up with, the ceramics, the firing techniques.

00:48:05.780 - 00:48:22.650

We had some beautiful pieces, works of art that were— it was, you know, pottery or, you know, and wonderful colors just beautifully made. And what I wanted to show people is that—

00:48:23.710 - 00:48:36.570

okay, this— I got, had a group of— I had high school students, and I said, you know, "To show you how important—if you look at something and you see, “Oh, well, that's beautiful.” Okay, that's nice.

00:48:36.970 - 00:48:56.420

But to get a connection, or to really understand how advanced this culture was, you have to see what other cultures were doing at the same time," okay. So I had pictures of pottery that was being made in Europe, you know, at that time, that had— that has been

00:48:56.420 - 00:49:09.010

found, and it was very rough. You know, they didn't have the techniques, they didn't have the, the degree of the skill. And I said, "See, this is what they were making at that time.

00:49:09.330 - 00:49:24.930

And this is what the Chinese artists, the ceramicists were making, this is at the same time. What do you think?" you know. So it's like a way to start a discussion, right? So it was like, wow, how did they know how to do this?

00:49:24.930 - 00:49:38.930

You know? What materials did they have? Why didn't the, you know, whatever, the Dutch or the English, why weren't they able to do it? Well, and so then that leads into a discussion of, you know— when it— well, they, they had the

00:49:38.930 - 00:49:55.600

certain kind of the kaolin clay and whatnot. And it was, you know, they— it was— they were just very highly skilled because they put a lot into it and it was perfected. And then later on, you can talk about how this skill

00:49:55.600 - 00:50:11.650

was transferred to the Europeans, how they got that, you know, and learned how to do that, and then they became masters in ceramics then, you know. So it's that, that sticks out to me is number one, you know, to

00:50:11.650 - 00:50:29.840

show t-to start a discussion, and to get people to think about timeframes. And, and, and, and different, you know, cultural attributes or what was important, you know.

00:50:30.820 - 00:50:49.140

Again, with the Chinese paintings, you know, where you'd have the, the, well, there the, the style was so different, it was like, there were scholars, and I would talk about, you know, how that was part of their scholarly work and how important it was to be

00:50:49.850 - 00:51:01.970

recognized as a gentleman, a learned person with all these skills, you know, that. So that's one thing. On other exhibits, you know, we've— I don't know, there's so many.

00:51:02.060 - 00:51:17.480

There's so many things that come out. It's hard to, you know, just pick one thing, but I think that when I was doing the Indian exhibition, the Peacock in the Desert, I-I could see— we

00:51:17.520 - 00:51:28.950

were not taking children through there. That was a pay day, that was a ticketed exhibition, so it was mostly adults. And I remember taking, you know, people through and they would

00:51:28.950 - 00:51:43.660

see— I would tell them about, you know, these— they had— the Maharaja, you know, had several wives. I mean, it was, you know, they had, like, 10, 12 wives, it was, you know, part of their, their tradition.

00:51:44.100 - 00:51:55.240

But the wives had a lot of an—had a lot of autonomy, you know. They came with wealth, they were able to keep their wealth, they were able to, you know, run a business.

00:51:55.370 - 00:52:08.320

So, that was very surprising to a lot of the visitors, you know. They think that when you have wives, you know, it's like they're in a harem, and they're, like, sequestered and that's it, they

00:52:08.420 - 00:52:22.050

have no freedom, nothing. But, you know, you realized t-to let—they learn that no, this was not the case with this, you know. It was, these were very learned women, you know, that was important in that

00:52:22.050 - 00:52:33.590

culture. And they did this, they knew how to hunt, there were lots of paintings of, you know, the wives on horseback with, you know, going tiger hunting.

00:52:34.130 - 00:52:49.540

And so it was, it's just neat to see when something clicks, you know, and you tell them, and people are surprised, and they start thinking a different way. Right? So this is like, in the—I don't know, in like the 14th

00:52:49.540 - 00:53:03.510

century, 13th-14th century, these works of art that were there. And you just say, "See, this is what it was, this is this was the culture then, this was the, the high culture, the Maharaja culture. So they were not just— they're not

00:53:03.620 - 00:53:19.070

heroines, you know.” So, yeah, so there's many examples like that. And actually, it's a learning experience for me because as a— as the guide, as the docent, I have to do a lot of research and find out about this and go to all the

00:53:19.110 - 00:53:33.570

information, the training sessions, a-and it's, it's wonderful. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. And next, I'm also curious about your first piece of collection.

00:53:34.480 - 00:53:48.170

I know you talked about how you travel and collect pieces, and those pieces are special for you in the moments in that space that where, where you were in that moment of collection.

00:53:48.950 - 00:54:03.640

Can you tell us a little bit about your first piece and how it might have moved you in starting it? Okay, well, actually my first piece of real art that I spent, you know—at that time, my husband and I, we were

00:54:03.850 - 00:54:17.630

very young and I don't— we, I think, we had our kids. Yeah, they were, they were babies. And I— there was this ceramics, or like a studio just outside the Woodlands, a little

00:54:17.630 - 00:54:27.560

kind of a little house. And I had gone in there once just out of curiosity to see what that was. And it was a woman.

00:54:27.560 - 00:54:41.180

She was an ex-nun. And she was making bronzes. And so I brought my husband there and I said, "I want this sculpture." And it was a nude. A bronze piece.

00:54:42.770 - 00:54:53.520

It's a couple of feet big. And I just loved it. You know, it has that green sort of verdigris color to it. And it was more

00:54:53.520 - 00:55:05.460

than he would have ever thought to spend because I mean— look, he's an engineer. You know? He's not an artistic person or. He's come to appreciate art because he knows I love it so much. And I convinced him.

00:55:05.460 - 00:55:16.740

I said, "No, I really just want this piece," you know? So he relented, and I have that. So that really is the oldest piece of art that I would say that I have is a sculpture.

00:55:17.470 - 00:55:32.930

And then, let me see, then it was on my travels, let me see, we had been to Bali. I've just loved, you know, we were up in the, in the hills and I went to a— that's a big artist place.

00:55:32.930 - 00:55:47.310

And I saw this painting and I just love— fell in love with it. It was like a procession going down a dirt road. And I liked it because, you know, the Balinese culture is Hindu.

00:55:48.820 - 00:55:57.930

And I just— that fascinated me. So I got a painting from that. On one of my travels I was in, I had accompanied my husband to Ghana.

00:55:59.080 - 00:56:12.330

And while he was working, I was, you know, shopping around and I went to a wonderful gallery, and there were so many beautiful paintings and I got— I think it's one of my most prized paintings.

00:56:12.330 - 00:56:26.330

It's a group of ladies walking away with the big, you know, with clay pots on their head, and it has a kind of an abstract feel to it. Um, I've gotten that.

00:56:26.430 - 00:56:40.480

I have— from Singapore, I have this one painting, it's actually a silk on silk. And it's a pagoda, you know, the, with the cranes, very typical, you know, Chinese art.

00:56:41.200 - 00:56:57.470

I have silk paintings from Japan, because my husband went to Japan a lot; I would go with him. You know, just Mexico, you know, just, just differe—places I've been to that I— if I came across something, I'd say, "Okay, I

00:56:57.470 - 00:57:10.460

want that." But also, I've gone to art fairs here. And like, you know, the Houston—the Bayou City Art Fair, or whatever, and it's something I just, just loved. Something, the colors or the way it was done.

00:57:11.320 - 00:57:23.900

I've gotten that. One of my prize paintings I got in Singapore. And what it is, it's, it's a tea plantation done by a Mya—an artist from

00:57:23.900 - 00:57:36.210

Myanmar that I saw at a gallery. And he used a syringe to create the texture. And it's just something I'd never seen before. It's of quite large scale.

00:57:36.770 - 00:57:49.360

So it's just, you know, yeah. There's no rhyme or reason or collection to my, or, or, you know, like a theme to my collecting or anything like that. So that's why I don't say— I'm not a collector.

00:57:49.960 - 00:58:02.050

I just like art. And if it speaks to me, I'll, you know, it's for me to enjoy. Yeah. So do you actively source for art? Or do you...? No.

00:58:02.370 - 00:58:13.740

No, I don't. I don't. No, I don't. Great. Thank you so much for sharing. And I also see this drawing behind you.

00:58:13.880 - 00:58:23.490

Oh, this one? That's one thing I made. I've taken classes at Glassell. Here. And that was, yeah. I have that drawing

00:58:23.490 - 00:58:37.830

there. Then I have— let me see. I just did this yesterday, I've been doing some watercolor. So dabbling in different things, you know, now that I have time and, yeah.

00:58:41.070 - 00:58:51.220

So no, I just— I love to create. And yeah, it's just like my happy place to be. So I'm up here in my studio, actually.

00:58:53.170 - 00:59:13.580

Oh, that's so fascinating to hear your vibrant lifestyle and interest and passion just for culture, and life in general. And we were talking also about how art is fluid and its identity and its representation and yourself as also

00:59:13.670 - 00:59:30.950

someone who is fluid in terms of the places you've been. You've been truly transnational, like being born in India, went to Singapore, and ended up here and being in different places, or how maybe the fluidity in terms of art and

00:59:30.990 - 00:59:46.090

your own identity. And you've been kind of working towards a number of initiatives, including South Asian art collection and different events to kind of educate and

00:59:46.090 - 00:59:57.870

publicize South Asian art. Can you talk about how you'd made the decision and towards the different types of art you support and, and how it impacted your journey with

00:59:57.920 - 01:00:14.540

art. Well, um, I guess the reason—I mean, I would support all kinds of art. The only— the thing that has drawn me towards South Asian is that I think it's underrepresented.

01:00:16.040 - 01:00:31.020

You know, there's enough people who support Latin Ameri—there are a lot of Latin Americans, there's Middle Eastern, there's, you know, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, there's all that. But I feel like South Asian art has

01:00:31.050 - 01:00:43.710

not been represented as to what it could be. And Houston has a large South Asian population. And it would be good if, you know, more people were involved in

01:00:43.710 - 01:00:59.680

that. So that's why, you know, I felt like this is where I could make an impact, you know, was there. But I know what we have Asia Society and wonderful, wonderful exhibits there by, you know,

01:00:59.760 - 01:01:13.900

contemporary artists. And that's one thing that I hope that the MFAH will— to bring some traveling exhibits from, from, you know,

01:01:13.980 - 01:01:31.770

South Asian artists, because there is so much—I've seen works in other countries, I've seen exhibits. One of the exhibits I saw that made a huge impact on me was one time I was in Tokyo, with my husband; he was on business.

01:01:32.080 - 01:01:48.450

And I went to this exhibition called—it's called, Let's go India. Okay, that was the translation, but it's called India, means “let's go.” And it was contemporary artists in— and it was just amazing.

01:01:48.660 - 01:01:59.830

Amazing, you know, the kind of statements. Okay, so no, I was just saying that I was, you know, I'm supporting South Asian art because it's underrepresented, I feel. Yeah.

01:02:00.700 - 01:02:15.610

And I would say that Asia Society is wonderful. It brings a lot of contemporary artists, you know, Asian artists, and that's great. I do feel that, you know, Asia Society, yes, it has its place, but I think

01:02:16.090 - 01:02:31.410

the MFAH has a larger platform, if you, if I may say, a larger platform. And it just has more visibility, you know, and is that a

01:02:31.410 - 01:02:48.780

different tier? And that's where I would like that to be a platform for, for contemporary artists from Asia. Yeah. So and, you know, South Asian artists, I know you have like Ai Weiwei, this that

01:02:48.850 - 01:03:07.110

did come, but I feel like—we have some, we have like Subodh Gupta, we've got the being— who is that guy? Now, you know, as I'm getting older... Anish Kapoor? Anish Kapoor, Anish Kapoor.

01:03:07.110 - 01:03:20.890

We have the big, you know, installation in the outdoors, which is wonderful. So, no, I just think that, you know— and everybody does their part, you know, I know that those who are passionate about

01:03:21.970 - 01:03:40.250

Islamic art— we have a huge, beautiful Islamic Art Gallery there at the museum. We have, I mean, wonderful, wonderful Chinese gallery, we have the South Asian gallery. So it's just, um, you know, we're, yeah, we're

01:03:40.250 - 01:03:52.060

just a very interconnected world. And all our cultures are, are also that way. And, you know, and more and more so. So, it's, I just feel like I'm just doing the part

01:03:52.170 - 01:04:09.550

that I can do. Wow, fascinating. Thank you for the support in arts and culture. And next, I'm also curious about how you and your husband, as a philanthropist couple, has also been working on so

01:04:09.550 - 01:04:21.100

much different initiatives for charitable reasons such as the... , MIT D-Lab, that you're trying to help people who are underprivileged for

01:04:21.100 - 01:04:35.540

education, and the Pratham initiative, the JLF— the Jaipur Lit Festival. Can you talk a little bit about all these different philanthropy activities?

01:04:37.700 - 01:04:49.520

Sure, sure. You know, we feel like so many people— that life has been good to us and that we have to give back. And I think that's really, really important.

01:04:49.840 - 01:05:05.020

And if more people did that, I think we'd be in a better world and wherever. And we are— feel very, extremely fortunate that we're in a position that we can give. You know, it's a privilege for us to be able to contribute.

01:05:05.630 - 01:05:25.880

So, you know, as far as MIT goes, the— my husband went to MIT and he credits his education there as giving him, you know, the opportunities that he's been able to realize. And one of the things, you know— we are very

01:05:25.880 - 01:05:46.400

much interested in development in the, in the third world, and one of the initiatives that we supported was a lab, a development lab, for students to create projects that they can be—that they can transfer to

01:05:46.860 - 01:05:59.650

underprivileged communities in the third— in the developing world, that, that can be used to better their lives, you know, whether it's water purification or, you know, whatever,

01:06:00.120 - 01:06:13.470

health issues, just sewage systems, or whatever. And that's what you— we were very impressed with what the program that MIT has.

01:06:13.470 - 01:06:27.580

That the students take a course, and— on how to do this, come up with ideas, and they actually go out in the field, and implement those ideas. So they my—a-and because my husband traveled so much, because of the business,

01:06:27.980 - 01:06:39.080

being that he was in the oil business, there have been projects in Africa, there have been projects in Brazil, but you know, we have helped in some form or another, you know.

01:06:39.510 - 01:06:54.060

Either, say, donating airline tickets to students or, you know, just not on a, on a huge scale, but whatever we could. And so that's been one of the— one of our interests

01:06:55.680 - 01:07:09.920

is to help with development, and so that the people in that community can actually use resources that are available to them to improve their lives, number one.

01:07:10.450 - 01:07:24.570

No, I said, I was saying that, you know, we are— we're always interested in development, people helping themselves. And education falls into that, because education is the key to improving your life, you know.

01:07:25.130 - 01:07:39.980

That's been pretty universal, and has been our direct experience. So where we can—so Broadcom is a way to— we, you know, so have supported for many, many years.

01:07:40.380 - 01:07:56.850

So we just do our part to, to help there. And we've also started a scholarship, an endowment at MIT for students. So you know, to help, yeah, deserving students to—

01:07:57.530 - 01:08:09.810

who can't afford to go to MIT. And they can. So that's— we're very, very happy about that. Yeah. So that's some, that's

01:08:09.810 - 01:08:19.450

where we are. That's where we're at. Yeah. Wow, amazing work. Thank you so much. And I'm sure a lot of other people will be thankful for you, too.

01:08:20.700 - 01:08:40.130

And I guess, as we're approaching the end of the interview, would you like to leave a time capsule for, say, a message for your future generations, for example, your grandchildren and your grandchildren's grandchildren? Um, well, I

01:08:40.130 - 01:09:00.950

guess what I would say is seize the day, carpe diem. And— but give back, you know. Give back. Because that is— nothing more satisfactory than that. Nothing more heartening than to be

01:09:01.130 - 01:09:13.580

able to do your part. Yeah. So. Absolutely. That's heart— a heart-warming message for your future generations. And, yeah.

01:09:13.850 - 01:09:30.670

Is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? If there's any gaps I-I didn't cover? Um, well, no, the only thing I would say is in just, um, as far as the philanthropy goes, my husband— I'm sure,

01:09:30.670 - 01:09:40.410

you know, he's been interviewed. And so he is on— his big passion right now is Habitat for Humanity. And so we,

01:09:40.530 - 01:09:57.250

you know, want to do something for our Houston community here. So that's something I-I neglected to say. But other than that, thank you very much, thank you Ann and to Anne Chao for, for undertaking this

01:09:57.250 - 01:10:10.200

project and to— so that we can make our voices known. And I consider it— I'm very honored that you reached out to me to tell my

01:10:10.200 - 01:10:15.420

story. Yeah, thank you and for your stories, too. And thank you for all the work you do.