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Today is March 23, 2021. My name is Ann Shi, and I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. I'm interviewing Lucy Sun today who is based in San Francisco, but definitely sharing some very close Houston ties

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as the Friends of the Houston Asian American Archive. Thank you very much, Lucy, for taking this interview with me. Oh, you're very welcome. So to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

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Oh okay, um, well, I was raised in Taiwan, and in Washington D.C.. My father was a civil servant with the Taiwan, the Republic of China government.

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And so we, we lived in Washington and in Taiwan. I did my undergraduate degree at Vassar College, I, majoring in art history. And then after that, I went to Harvard Business School and obtained my MBA.

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And I spent my entire career as an investment banker with Goldman Sachs. So after retiring from my career, I went back to graduate school in art history and got a master's degree at the University of London at SOAS, and

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I use that to kind of pivot into nonprofit board service for the arts. So I should also mention that I, when I was working with Goldman Sachs, I spent 22 years in

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London. And then in 2009, we moved back to the United States. So I've been in San Francisco, and actually now, I just moved to Newport Beach, where I think we will be full time residents from now on,

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so. And I still spend most of my time in, in the arts, in nonprofit board service, also collecting and just learning. Sounds great. And sounds like you're going to enjoy the sunshine even more.

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Yes, I think so. Yeah, thank you. And just wondering, with your upbringing, which is very much rooted in Taiwanese culture, what are some of the values in your upbringing?

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Oh, well, I think it was more traditional Chinese values. Confucian values, like the values of hard work, the value of emphasizing the importance of education, the–the value of, you know, personal growth and advancement,

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and of emphasis on family, both my own family, my children, and my husband, as well as my extended family, my siblings and my late parents. So it's a very family-based and

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work-based ethic. So what was your first encounter of art? Oh, well, actually, my, my mother, she–she was a civil servant earlier in her career.

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And after she had four children, she retired and decided to study art history. And this was in Taiwan at the Chinese culture college. And, where the older professors were from the National Palace Museum.

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So my mother actually became the first docent at the National Palace Museum. They just needed somebody to take around VIPs when the curators were not available.

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So she was picked and, and she did a good job. So that started, you know, the whole docent movement there. But she always loved, she was always a great student of Chinese art history.

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And she used to take me to the National Palace Museum when I was an adolescent. And there I think I–I developed my great love and belief in museums as important places, important repositories of history, and important places for people to

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go to, to think and to learn. Yeah. That's wonderful to hear that you got that from your mother that has some kind of carry on that cultural torch in, in arts. And next I'm just wondering, since your–you

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studied, you studied in SOAS and learning Chinese art history, what were some of the decision making process...? ... Oh, of going? Well, it was, it was a very unusual shift.

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I was already middle-age, I'd spend 20 years in banking, and I think people expected me to just continue in banking, but for me, I think, um, you know, my attitude in life is that you always need to be learning

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something, rather than repeating the things that you already know. And so I felt that, you know, my career had gotten to the point where I really wasn't learning so

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much, I was just practicing what I knew. And I've always had this interest in art history. So it was a very—I did feel I was taking a big risk, because I was giving up something very substantial, you

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know, a very, a career in banking that I had fought very hard to get. And so to give it up and take the risk of going back and being a student again, when I was in my forties, that was very, that was very

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humbling, and also a little bit daunting, you know, because here I was, middle-aged woman sitting around with all these twenty-something graduate students, and you know, it was a real cultural shift.

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So—but I thought it was worth taking, because I really thought this was like the next step for me, this was the new frontier. And I guess I'm the kind of person who's always looking for, you know, a challenge or something slightly new, rather than the same old

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thing. So I think I had the kind of mentality to take that, that, that—make that leap. Wow, that's super admiring to hear that and to continue learning as a journey, that's definitely, many of us

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should learn. And I'm wondering, how did you continue to study and adventure during your career in finance that triggered that–that shift? Like you definitely had that tie?

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Right, right. So my entire life, I have always attended museums, everywhere I go, I go to museums. When I travel with my husband, he's like, "Oh, no, you've got to go to another museum?" I drag him around to all the

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museum. So that's one aspect, I just always loved art. The other aspect of it is, I started in the 1980’s to collect art. And to me, that was a very satisfying way to engage in art. Because when you collect art, you meet some very

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interesting people. Those were days, I was living between Hong Kong—I mean, I was actually based in New York, but I was traveling to Hong Kong on business a lot. So I met a few really, really great dealers and who were

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also connoisseurs. And they taught me a lot. And I started attending the auctions. And then I started to learn

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about, you know, Chinese ink painters, twentieth century Chinese ink painters. So that also spurred my knowledge and also spurred my curiosity. And even though in those days, I really couldn't collect very much,

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because I was young, and I didn't have a lot of funds. I did collect enough—see to me, collecting was a process that enabled me to learn.

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You know, and it wasn't so much like I wanted to own a lot of paintings, it's that every time I looked at a painting or sought to acquire a painting, I would learn about the artist, I would look at what he has done, I would

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look at what made him special. And then I would look for a piece maybe that represents the finest qualities of that artist. So I think collecting also was, in addition to visiting museums, was another kind of lifelong hobby that

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helped me extend and continue my interest in art while working full-time as a banker. Yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. Can you also share any mentor, like how–how anyone

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ki-kind of influence your journey in art, as a, kind of a mentoring experience? Um, yes. Well, you know, I–I mentioned I went to Vassar College as an

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undergraduate. And I actually was a art history major. Although at that time, I specialize in Western art history, specifically Byzantine and Medieval.

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So I had sev—that was an excellent Art History department. And what was really unusual about it, it was predominantly women. You know, because Vassar is a women's college, but that particular department was—the

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professors were all women. So I really felt I had so many role models there. I was research assistant for the chairman of the department one year; my own thesis advisor, who was a medieval

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scholar was really very, very, took a lot of care, gave me a lot of time and a lot of attention. So I really felt nurtured there and by these really strong, capable women who were really leading scholars in their

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fields, you know. So I think that really made an impression on me. Not only that women can–can be, you know, dominant forces

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in–in–in what they do; but also just in–in the way they–they nurtured me and mentored my interest in art history. So I think that was a very, very

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important development for me. Yes. That's really empowering to hear that all these women who nurtured and mentored in your journey too! Well, remember, I went to college in the 70’s.

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Right? So there weren't that many women, you know, in senior faculty positions at that point. And, and because Vassar was a women's college and all the Seven Sisters, all the women's colleges tended to have a lot of great women scholars.

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So I think that, that was so important. And in a way, I think it's a little bit lost today, because a lot of schools have now become... Well, there's some still all women, but you know, a lot of schools are co-ed.

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And so when that happens, you don't, you don't get the same, you know, female bias . Yes. Yeah. So it's also interesting when you studied at Vassar College, you were focusing

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on the Byzantine era. And then later on when you go back to arts again, in SOAS, you studied Chinese history. Yeah. Why was the kind of different areas?

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Yeah, so when I was an undergraduate, I think what attracted me about under, what we—actually Vassar didn't have a strong program in Asian art, so that, I–I didn't really study that. But more importantly, Byzantine and

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Medieval art is one of the most under studied fields, or was at the time, there's less known about. Remember, we call the medieval art, the Dark Ages, right? So you know, because it-it's dark, because, not because it was actually

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nothing going on; it was dark, because we didn't understand it, it, didn't know a lot about it. So studying Byzantine art was kind of like solving puzzles, you know, because it was all about taking evidence that was not

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very fully developed and–and spotty, and trying to weave together a picture of what that era was like. That was to me very intellectually chal-challenging, it was more like putting together a puzzle. Whereas if I study like

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modern, or if I'd studied nineteenth century, those are very well studied fields with a lot of scholarship already in existence. So I think I was very attracted by the fact that this was kind of a bit of a frontier, you know.

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But then in, in going back, to get my MA in SOAS. Well, I really, at that point, thought I should really focus. It's because I hadn't, I had never been formally trained in Chinese art history.

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So I really thought that this was a chance to really get a structured formal understanding, even though I'd seen so many great works of Chinese art, I—all the pieces that I saw at the National Palace Museum or other museums, I visited;

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I mean, they were, they gave me a tremendous impression of the greatness of Chinese art, but without the kind of academic and historical grounding. So that's what I went back to get.

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And, you know, SOAS is just an incredible institution, I mean, the British scholars that are there who are deeply knowledgeable about Chinese art is really very impressive. You know, and I remember, because I went back during the 90’s,

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early 90’s, right, and this is when China was opening up, and we were getting all these graduate students from China to come to SOAS to study Chinese art history. I thought this is very, very strange, you know, I said, "well, they must have even

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better people back in mainland China, right?" But apparently not because the scholarship was very, very different. And I guess because of the Cultural Revolution, there was kind of a break in academic

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studies, right? So, so it was, it was very interesting that to see all these brilliant Chinese scholars come to SOAS to get their MA and PhD, you know, and it was also, I was also extremely jealous, because it also made me realize

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that what a disadvantage I was at, I was, I had in not having mastered history and language the way they do, you know, because they really, they, it's their native language, they understand the history more than somebody like

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me. So I felt it, I felt they had a huge advantage. And, and they were, they were just absolutely brilliant. You know, some really brilliant scholars came out of that, that, that period of time, yeah.

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Yeah. Wow, that's super interesting for sharing that difference between the, like Chinese scholars and like an English scholars in—that study Chinese. Yes, yes, yeah, there was a noticeable difference.

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And I–I don't know how they bridge it. Of course, the lot of British and Western scholars of Chinese art history are also extremely well grounded in language and history too,

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I don't mean to imply that they aren't. But it's, they have to play catch-up so much more, you know, because they-they-they've got a whole half a lifetime of education that, you know, that they have to make up for.

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Yeah. Do you kind of have this reconciliation with your, I guess, Chinese American identity during your journey with art? You know, yes, I–I think I had a reconciliation with my Chinese identity.

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Yes, definitely. Because, actually, I—the other thing I really love about art is that it's a great way to learn history.

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Because, you know, everything you see, everything you study is a piece of evidence of history. It's like not–not just like reading what somebody else wrote about history; but it's about seeing for yourself, what actually was,

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you know. When you look at the material, culture of any period of time, any civilization, I mean, the visual characteristics tell you so much about the period of the time, about the people, about the history of that period, about

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who made it and why they made, have made it. I just like that directness of evidence, you know, it's evidence based history. And that's what I–I

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really, especially appreciate, you know, about–about it. Yes. But going back to your question about Chinese American, I really felt—it's not so much Chinese American as

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with hyphens as "Chinese," and then "American," you know, because I was looking at Chinese art, from the point of view of American scholarship. So it was, is that kind of duality, you know, whereas I

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think, maybe—and I don't know this in depth—but maybe when Chinese art historians look at Chinese art, they may look at it a little bit differently. Yeah.

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Yeah, I'm also curious, how different do they come about—’cause just from personal experiences, there's probably more like, kind of a feeling-based approach, rather, as opposed to, like, the Western scholarship, as a

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more kind of analytical and text or evidence based approach. Do you kind of had that feeling? Yes, yes. I–I think so. Because, you know, it's part of, for a Chinese scholar, it's part of your

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heritage, it's part of your patrimony, right? So it's, it's, it's, and it's also a little bit more emotional, you know, because it is, it is your

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own history, right? And so there isn't that objective divide. Whereas, you know, I think Westerners looking, or somebody from outside looking at somebody else's culture, you can see

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things that the people who are indigenous to that culture may not see, because they always took it for granted. Right? Whereas someone from the outside doesn't have that same perspective.

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So they can look at it and immediately see things that–that people who take it for granted would not be able to see. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's interesting, even during the pre-War era, I

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mean, like the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s... some of the greatest scholars of Chinese art were Westerners. You know, people like James Cahill... not that far but 60, 70’s, you know,

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Sullivan, Cahill, Max Loehr, you know, these great art historians they're all you know, European or–or–or American. Whereas the Chinese scholars that, there were, I'm sure they existed, but I would not have studied

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them. I would not have you know, read their work. Yeah, that's interesting. And I believe the only, like, Chinese scholar during, in that period is only Wen Fong, right, from Princeton.

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Yes, yeah. Although Wen Fong also, he was Western educated, right? Yeah. He's Western educated, although he is classically trained also in Chinese. Yeah, you're right. You're right.

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That's the big exception. Yeah, it's–it'll be really interesting if there's any kind of Chinese scholar from kind of a Chinese standpoint and approach, writing about their scholarship, and there'll be an interesting

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comparison... But you know, there—now that I think about it, there are a lot of Chinese connoisseurs and collectors, you know. But somehow, I don't know that a lot of them... Well, collectors and connoisseurs didn't write because they

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didn't have to work. You know, they didn't have to teach or work. Whereas, you know, maybe in the West, you know, it was more of a career, right.

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But there are, I do know there are some great Chinese collectors and connoisseurs who probably knew as much as anybody, but probably didn't share their knowledge through writing or publishing. Yeah.

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Yeah, that's super interesting. And I'm also curious, what did you—what was your dissertation, or what was your favorite part in studying Chinese art history? Oh, well, I ended up writing my dissertation on carved

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lacquers, of the, of the Yuan dynasty. You know, when, and those boxes and trays, you know, especially the, the pictorial ones, where the motifs related to

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painting, you know, either landscape, or, you know, pavilions or, or sometimes birds and flowers, you know, album paintings. So that's what I wrote my dissertation on, although I

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could easily have written a dissertation on a number of subjects. I, one of my professors at SOAS was Robert Whitfield, who's one of the leading experts in the world—was, or he's still alive, but he's retired,

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on Dunhuang. You know, and the Stein— he wrote the catalog of the Stein collection at the British Museum. So, um, so, I–I could have done something on Dunhuang, but it was difficult because I had never been to Dunhuang.

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You know, and those... Yeah, I was studying, you know, in the 90’s. We were studying Dunhuang all from slides and books, you know, not from seeing it directly. So it was hard to do much for me to do much in depth.

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But I could also have done that. I know, I could have done any of a number of topics because I–I really love them all. I love ceramics. I love lacquer, and painting.

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Yeah. Wow, that's great to hear. And I'm also wondering, with your kind of motivation to collect, you spoke a lot about this continual learning and journey and,

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like, finding the ancestral roots. What other—would there be any other motivation, for example, as, like, we're kind of, in our kind of art markets commercialization age?

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Oh, yeah. You know, um, not really, not–not in those days. And, and not really even now, but I do, I have to admit, it's not that, I am not at all commercial in my approach, I

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do use the commercial market, to manage my collection, and to, to keep it up to date and weed out, soand also to raise capital if I want to buy something new.

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So I find the art market for me is not so much an interest, but a convenience. Because it allows me to do things that I wouldn't be able to do if I couldn't sell a painting or

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two from time to time or a work of art. I mean, I usually keep things for long periods of time. But you know how it is sometimes if you have a new interest and don't want to put new money into it, you just take something you already own.

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And you know, if you can auction it off, then you can get capital to buy some new things. And that's a more conservative way of, of managing a collection, but that's helped me a lot.

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So that's how I look at the commercial art market. I don't really, I don't really focus on it, but it–it is very convenient for that purpose, you know. And also, I find, I don't really agree

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with the commercial market a lot. You know, sometimes the commercial law market will bid up an artist that I don't, you know, I don't really think is that great. And so and then, so if I have

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that I will sell it. And then I'll buy in emerging artists, you see, I love emerging artists, I love new artists that where I can see this person is really talented, and I like to follow his career. So that gives me the opportunity to do

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that. If I sold, sell the more mature artists, and by the more emerging artists, that to me is very satisfying, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's super wonderful to hear that you're using your kind of curatorial

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eye to seek out for, like, younger and support their career. Yeah, well you see, I don't think, I think really, collecting art is actually a form of philanthropy. It's a way of

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supporting artists, because remember, probably 98% of all artists won't be famous, or, and won't have a large commercial market for their work, and in fact, may not even have any secondary market, you know, any ability

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that if somebody collects their art, they will be able to sell it; even to break even or anything. So I think for these artists to survive and to continue to paint, they really need to be bought in the primary market.

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You know, they–they have a show, their–their fans buy it, and then you buy it; because you love his, his or her work, not because you ever going to even sell it, right? But it keeps the artist in business.

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And I think that's–that's very important, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that is. Yeah, it is important. And I try to remember that a lot of artists never sell any

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paintings, even in their lifetimes. Like Van Gogh in his whole life sold one painting, you know, he was, he died a total failure, you know, and it was only his brother who kept his work, kept it together, and then

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started to sell it. But this was all after he died. I mean, poor man never even knew that he was a great artist, or maybe if he believed it, he didn't think

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anybody else believed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We definitely need, like, the eyes for the talents out there. Yeah. And I'm also

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wondering who are some of the, those artists on your, on your radar right now? Why are on my radar? Okay. So, among the Chinese artists, the most recent piece I bought, I'm so excited about, I bought it right before the shutdown at Art Basel

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Miami, is a, is a artist called Wu Qizhong. And he's from Taiwan. He has studios in Taipei and in Berlin. And he does cyanotypes, which is the old form of photography, is

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a nineteenth century form of cameraless photography, where he takes light sensitive paper soaks it with this chemical, and then crushes it kind of, and then exposes it to the light.

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So that where it's crushed and wrinkled, it's not exposed, so it stays white; and where it's not crushed and wrinkled, it turns blue. And it's, so it, he creates actually a mountain scape without a brush.

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You know, he's just through crumpling, crumpling paper. It's just beautiful. And so I love his work. He's one. My favorite Chinese ink artist is a ink artist named in the Bay Area of San Francisco, by name of Zheng

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Chongbin. In fact A—San Francisco Asian Art Museum of Art, which I was on the board of until December, last December, is giving him his first US museum show. So he's a–he's an artist.

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I've been collecting for about ten years before—even before he was really on anybody's radar. So I think he's, I think he's the most talented ink artist, because he's really pushing the boundaries of the medium, you know?

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So um, so he's, he's one of my favorites. And recently, okay, I bought some African American and Native American artists. I bought this ceramic piece by

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a woman named—she's from New Mexico, a Native American woman named Rose B. Simpson. And she does. She comes from a long tradition of ceramic artists, Native American ceramic artists, because in her

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Pueblo, in her village, all the women were by definition potters. You know, if you are a woman, you had to make pottery, so she comes from a long line of potters. But now she's turned it into the fine arts, and she's

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becoming quite well celebrated. So, you know, I don't, I don't collect in categories. I mean, I have a natural attraction to Chinese artists. But I also

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like to look broadly. And so sometimes if you look at who I own, there may seem to be no rhyme or reason to what these artists have in common.

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But I think if you look at the works themselves, there may be some connections, you know, between them, either thematic or stylistic or in feeling, you know, so... you know, so.

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That's, I go to a lot of art fairs, I, you know, do a lot of Zoom calls, I go to museums, I look at, you know, I look at all artists and without necessarily too much emphasis of one kind over the other. So I have kind of a broad interest

00:31:01.680 - 00:31:20.030

when it comes to collecting, as a result, yeah. So yeah, like you were talking about... Do you happen to have, like, a kind of a strategy that you have in your mind when, like, for example, this piece will look great with

00:31:20.030 - 00:31:27.050

another piece on the wall? Or is there any...? No, usually not. That, I don't, I don't think in that way.

00:31:27.240 - 00:31:41.780

And I don't think in terms of placement either. So because, actually, that's a problem, because often I bought, I have to love the piece, I think what you have to do is judge the piece, you know, and what happens though, to me is that if I

00:31:41.780 - 00:31:52.210

judge the piece and make the decision based on the intrinsic quality-qualities of the piece, I end up buying things I have no place to put. So then I have to

00:31:52.270 - 00:32:05.840

rehang, redo everything in my house. But it's okay, because I think you have to look at a work of art in absolute terms. You know, it has to stand for itself. It has to, it has to mean something by itself.

00:32:06.710 - 00:32:19.040

It has to speak for itself, you know, so I would never be swayed by, you know, oh, I need to get such a piece because I have this blank space on my wall. So, no.

00:32:19.190 - 00:32:30.060

And even though that sometimes gets me in trouble with buying pieces that I've nowhere to put, but I–I figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:30.860 - 00:32:43.970

Yeah. That's great to hear that you kind of respect and give space for individual pieces. Yes, yes. Yes. Although, you know, I do find—so you–you asked me whether you have a strategy, it's not

00:32:44.050 - 00:32:58.010

intentional, but sometimes when you put two pieces of work together that are not necessarily related, you just happen to think, "Oh, I wonder how this will look next to that." Sometimes magical things happen, because pieces

00:32:58.090 - 00:33:11.710

do reveal relationships to one another that you would not see until you put them together, you know. And this, to me is also a fun part of, you know, “curating.” I don't consider myself a curator.

00:33:12.280 - 00:33:24.150

But I think whenever you put two pieces together, you are basically curating, right? And so it's sometimes very surprising and very, very satisfying

00:33:24.260 - 00:33:40.010

to put two pieces together that you wouldn't think would go together or have a relationship with one another, and then suddenly, you see there's a relationship, you know, so. Yeah, definitely how, like, artists can connect to one another.

00:33:40.330 - 00:33:54.060

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, and without any connections in terms of, I don't know, in terms of, you know, historical connection, or ethnic collection, connection, or, you know, identity

00:33:54.060 - 00:34:07.860

connection. No, just completely out of the blue, you know, yeah. And if there's any kind of mission statement that you would think of, for your collection, as a manager of

00:34:07.890 - 00:34:26.160

your collection, what would it be? Mhm. I would say, to put together a personal list of artists that I

00:34:27.690 - 00:34:43.070

really would like to follow, that I would, I think are saying something that's very important to be said right now, and that, that appeals to me enough that I want to follow this person's career, you know, yeah.

00:34:44.130 - 00:35:02.030

Yeah. Great. Do you mind also sharing some like anecdotes about, for example, your first piece of—in your collection? Oh, you know, the first actually the first piece I ever collected, I was only twenty-one

00:35:02.630 - 00:35:17.030

years old. I was just graduated from college, I was visiting my parents in Taiwan, and I had no money, maybe I had fifty dollars in my bank account. And I spent the whole thing on a

00:35:17.470 - 00:35:31.280

pair of little clay, temple roof figures, you know, little figures from the roof of the temple in Taiwan. But I just—there is such life in these two figures.

00:35:31.690 - 00:35:44.930

They're only about this little. And they, I–I have them actually in storage. They’ve been on my, in my living room for many, many, many years, but I finally decided to put them away, because in the current house, I mean it's

00:35:44.930 - 00:35:58.960

hard to display them. But anyway, I have had these two pieces for, oh gosh, forty years now. And every time I look at them, it just, it, I see the

00:35:58.960 - 00:36:12.960

life of them, you know, they're–they’re, these are living temple figures made of clay. And so... I think that taught me several things. First of all, that you can bank your, bankrupt yourself buying art.

00:36:13.400 - 00:36:26.790

Because unless you're careful, you spend your last– last fifty dollars, I could spend my last fifty dollars on art. Secondly, that, you know, if you follow your instincts when you buy art, there will always be something there.

00:36:27.130 - 00:36:39.650

You know, whatever you saw in the thing, the, what you bought in the beginning will always be there. And that's, that's what you're going for, you know, that's what you consider a successful acquisition.

00:36:41.050 - 00:36:54.740

If you buy something, and a year or two later, or five years later, you think, why did I buy this? That's an unsuccessful acquisition. So, so I think my first acquisition,

00:36:55.250 - 00:37:10.670

when I had no money and even less knowledge, was actually one of my best acquisitions, because for forty years now, I still can appreciate it, you know? So I think it–it–it teaches me also to

00:37:10.670 - 00:37:23.170

follow my instinct when it comes to buying art, you know. Sometimes you see something and you don't know why you like it. It's okay. Because it's, it's doing something to you, it's speaking to you in a way that you can't

00:37:23.240 - 00:37:39.120

put, quite define. But, but that–that may be because it's really good art, you know? Can you share some of those magical moments that you encountered, either in, like, one of the studio visit, or

00:37:39.150 - 00:37:53.260

museum exhibit, or gallery exhibit visits? Um, let's see. Or art fair? Here. Yeah. Okay, um, I think...

00:37:55.870 - 00:38:11.160

well, I don't know, magical moment, but I've had some of the, my tensest moments buying at auction. I've done that. Yeah, I mostly sold at auction, because I–I use the auction houses to sell.

00:38:11.460 - 00:38:25.380

But when I was buying British art in England, I used to go and buy, buy it myself. And I, those were actually quite thrilling experiences, you know, that is the, is the one time where I thought, okay, I like the art market,

00:38:25.380 - 00:38:39.040

because it was just the buzz in the room, you know, and to be part of that whole, participate in all of that excitement was really exciting. Exciting. Yeah.

00:38:40.310 - 00:38:52.390

Yeah, but exhibitions. I mean, I always get excited when I go see exhibitions, you know. I mean, I–I–I love museum—to me going to an exhibition is like reading the best book.

00:38:53.910 - 00:39:10.880

Because it's a, it's a series of well thought out ideas in one bite, you know, like a book, you know, so I–I love to see, well–well constructed exhibitions. Yeah,

00:39:11.280 - 00:39:32.490

yeah. Yeah. So I'm also wondering, is there a kind of systematic kind of medium, or like a period, like, do you kind of arrange your collection in such a way? Like, if it's one specific period that you would collect?

00:39:33.210 - 00:39:48.900

No, no, I'm not at all bound to that. And I'm not at all bound to geography, either; time or geography in my collection have no meaning. It's more about how the artists and the artists’ ideas connect, you know.

00:39:49.290 - 00:40:01.690

And I love for example, putting together... Okay, so I'm looking at something right now on my wall. It's a bronze fist by a African American artist.

00:40:01.690 - 00:40:16.660

It's kind of like Black Lives Matter fist, okay. And then above it is looks like an abstract graphic piece. But it's actually a vintage photograph from the 1940’s by, by a photographer named Ernst Haas, of

00:40:16.660 - 00:40:28.890

a wooden being surrounded by wires against the sky, you know. I don't know what—the two of them, I don't know, they sit together and they really look like they belong together, you know.

00:40:29.290 - 00:40:41.110

And then next to both of them. I have a Cambodian artist who—named Sopheap Pich, who does grids. And I think, visually, they all connect to

00:40:41.130 - 00:40:54.180

one another. And, I don't know, that's how I decide to put them together. You know, it's a very serendipitous, but contrasting combination. Yeah. Yeah, that's super interesting that you're also

00:40:54.550 - 00:41:10.810

kind of into the social justice kind of engagement in the arts. What's your opinion on like, the currently more and more, like, vocal, or more kind of engaging as a term, I guess,

00:41:10.810 - 00:41:26.180

called "socially engaged art," like the engagement of, like, Black Lives Matter, or, like, Asian Americanism, that kind of, like, do you—what's your opinion? Well, I think, you know, I think art has always been socially

00:41:26.180 - 00:41:41.570

engaged. You know, I mean, different artists do it in different ways, and different artists focus on different things, because they live on different times. But I think, you know, like, the Black Lives Matter—I mean, protest art

00:41:41.800 - 00:41:58.120

has always existed, you know. Like, for example, Picasso painted "Guernica" in 1937, to protest the bombing of a small town in Spain by Hitler, you know. It's the same thing, you know, artists see injustice, and then they paint

00:41:58.120 - 00:42:09.910

about it, or they–they–they sculpt about it, or they include it in their art. I think art has always been like that, you know. So, I think, yeah, I think it's not a new thing.

00:42:10.640 - 00:42:24.380

You know, it's not a new—art has had so many different, has always had many different purposes. You know, there's art that teaches, there's art that, you know, questions, there's art

00:42:24.450 - 00:42:32.710

that tries to open your eyes about something. And I think these are all important. And art–art is all encompassing, you know, it's like books, everything.

00:42:33.350 - 00:42:46.530

It's about ideas and how you put ideas together. Yeah. Yeah. I love the comparison of reading art as reading a book. It's definitely both nourishing to our brains.

00:42:47.580 - 00:43:02.100

Yeah, yes. Definitely. Let's probably talk a little bit more about the philanthropist hat on—for you, as well as the collector hat. So I am aware that you're a board

00:43:03.050 - 00:43:20.070

member of the Asian art museum in San Francisco, and, as well as in the Dunhuang art—the Dunhuang Foundation. I'm just wondering, what are some of the goals or achievements that you're trying to accomplish with being engaging in these

00:43:20.850 - 00:43:37.210

foundations? Yeah, well, at the end of the day, it's about preserving art. It's about preserving our heritage in art, be it through a museum that actually physically collects this

00:43:37.300 - 00:43:53.040

heritage through, by collecting objects; or something like the Dunhuang Foundation, which helps bring foreign expertise to the Mogao caves. You know, because the caves

00:43:53.400 - 00:44:11.820

actually are supported by the Dunhuang Academy, which is paid for by the government. But what the Dunhuang Foundation does, we do projects with people like the Mellon Foundation to digitize the caves; or people like the Cautauld to, in London, to do more conservation programs to

00:44:11.820 - 00:44:28.990

train Chinese conservators, so that they can preserve these monuments—not only at Dunhuang, but all the caves and all the, you know, ancient monuments in China. So I think it's all about caring

00:44:29.540 - 00:44:44.420

for and taking care of our, our material heritage or our artistic heritage, and making sure that they are preserved forever, you know, so that-that's, I guess, my motivation.

00:44:44.780 - 00:44:58.180

And then using all of these things as learning tools, you know, because they are, you know, they do teach us so much about our history, about who we are, where we-we’ve been, where we come from,

00:44:58.630 - 00:45:14.980

and, you know, what the world was like, you know? Yeah, it's very existential as well, about the human beings. And you're also part of the Asian Arts Commission in the city of San Francisco, right?

00:45:16.140 - 00:45:32.050

So were you in charge of like, proposing, like placement of art in the city's public arts or...? Not so much. That commission exists because actually, the collection of the Asian Art Museum in San

00:45:32.050 - 00:45:46.200

Francisco belongs to the city of San-San Francisco. When the museum was first founded in the 50’s by Avery Brundage, he actually gifted his 7000-piece collection to the City of San Francisco. So that's why the museum has

00:45:46.440 - 00:45:59.230

two boards, one board is the commission to look after the city's interests; and the other one is the foundation, which is to raise private fun-funding. So that's why, that's what the Asian Arts Commission

00:46:00.140 - 00:46:10.520

did. But I–I know what you're talking about, you're talking about civic art and you know, who–who decides, you know, who, what goes up there. And that would be a different group.

00:46:11.770 - 00:46:25.000

I'm–I’m not very familiar with that. So yeah. Yeah, thank you. And next, I'm wondering, as for this part of more Asian American side of the conversation,

00:46:25.800 - 00:46:42.230

what do you think are most misunderstood about Asian American artists in‚ here in America? About the art or about artists, specifically? About artists, art, or the entire Asian American art scene.

00:46:43.030 - 00:46:58.630

Yeah, um, I think they view it as very, they view it more categorically, as tied to the tradition. And I think it is so wide and broad ranging, that you have some artists that are maybe

00:46:58.630 - 00:47:13.020

very tied to the, the tradition, because they're, they're immigrants. But then you have some who are not at all, that they could be any kind of artists, you look at their work, and you don't see a trace of Asian-ness.

00:47:13.330 - 00:47:30.790

And I think there is a diversity among Asian artists. And also within the categorization of Asian, I mean, there is in South Asian, Indian artists; and then there are, you know, Southeast Asian artists, and then East Asian artists, like Japanese or Chinese.

00:47:31.070 - 00:47:45.390

They're all very different, you know, so it's, it's such a wide and diverse field, you know, it kind of almost denies categorization, you know?

00:47:47.430 - 00:48:06.860

Yeah, definitely. Art has that kind of very global and all-inclusiveness in there. Yes. Um, do you think, like, for some artists to reject their Asian-ness, or that kind of Asian American discourse, is it kind of a

00:48:06.860 - 00:48:24.900

justified way to–to do? I think an artist could deny his Asian-American-ness, especially these days when... You know, it's, it's almost it's too defensive a position to start from, you know?

00:48:25.370 - 00:48:41.270

I mean, I think, I think an artist should just explore what he wants to—what he or she wants to explore, without being shackled to, to history or to injustice, or, I mean, it's a

00:48:41.310 - 00:48:53.550

choice, right? It's a choice for an artist to make. And I would never want to say that anybody has an obligation to address these issues, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, definitely.

00:48:54.410 - 00:49:12.110

And I guess, as we are approaching the end of our interview up to the hour, what do you want to do with your collection in the future? Or would you leave as legacy for your next generation? Well, you know, I don't, I don't know what kind of legacy as a collection it is, but

00:49:12.110 - 00:49:24.440

I've already started to give pieces to the museums. I've, in the last two years, I've given about five pieces to three different museums, or six

00:49:24.440 - 00:49:35.630

pieces to four different museums. So I've already begun that process. And yes, where–where possible, I would prefer to give everything that I own to museums,

00:49:36.340 - 00:49:53.690

because while I–I think they will look after them and preserve them, and I do think ultimately, good art should belong to the public. You know, but on the other hand, museums won't want all of my pieces, so the ones that I don't want, I don't know what I'm going to

00:49:53.800 - 00:50:07.010

do. But it's interesting, my children don't want them, and... but I, you know, I think there should be better ways of people being able to donate to, like, hospitals and schools.

00:50:07.010 - 00:50:21.720

Like, for example, I think schools should be filled with art, you know, I mean, that's a great avenue of donation. I mean, a lot of people have nice art that is very attractive, and–and, but not necessarily something a museum would want, they can go

00:50:21.720 - 00:50:31.410

to schools, right. It's very inspirational for children to live with art, to have art hanging on the walls when they go to school, because not a lot of children are fortunate

00:50:31.410 - 00:50:44.260

enough to have art at home, right? So, so I think it's good to think of ways of—and hospitals, you know. I mean, what could be more cheerful if you're sick and going to the hospital than to

00:50:44.260 - 00:50:58.530

seeing beautiful works of art? So I would like to see those avenues open up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And what other channels do you think besides hospitals, schools,

00:50:58.820 - 00:51:16.170

and, like, these public spaces besides museum should be able to enjoy? Well, you know, I mean, the, the rest of them are mostly I think, commercial enterprises, right? So they would commission their own art, you know, so it wouldn't be philanthropic

00:51:16.360 - 00:51:31.390

to give to them. But, but I do think I mean, I do, well, then you're talking about also the whole area of public art, which are usually commissions, right. And so I think that is actually one of the most important growth fields for

00:51:31.480 - 00:51:47.070

art, that, you know, that maybe instead of so much art being in museums all the time, that there will be commissions for public art; so that we all, when we walk down the street, or when we go outside, anywhere, we'll just see public

00:51:47.130 - 00:52:01.530

art, you know. In the parks—parks are a great area, but you know, you, only certain types of works can go into a park, you know. Or by the sea, I live by the water, you know, beautiful to have works of art, you know, in the

00:52:02.280 - 00:52:14.240

public space, down by the docks, or, you know, so, yeah. Um sorry, I missed this question out. But I think it's pretty, I mean, you touched it from time to time in the

00:52:14.240 - 00:52:30.030

interview, but just want to get like a kind of a more, like, kind of a summarized version of this answer. So what kind of criteria do you judge as a piece of good and worthy and valuable art?

00:52:31.410 - 00:52:47.440

Oh, that I judged for myself, or that just in general? Uh, for your collection? For my collection? That, that is actually, my answer to that would be very personal, it has to resonate with

00:52:47.620 - 00:53:01.460

me. Because there are great works of art out there that—but if it doesn't have a relationship, if it doesn't touch me, you know, if I don't see something that I can relate to, I–I don't think I would buy it. Yeah.

00:53:02.180 - 00:53:17.050

Yeah, I think it has to evoke something inside that is an important idea or an experience or something where, you know, even like those little roof figures, you know, I mean, there was this sense of

00:53:17.200 - 00:53:31.990

life in them that I just really responded to, you know, those little, the first pieces I collected, right. I'm still looking for that connection, that–that really strong personal production where, "Yes, I see what you're about," you know?

00:53:34.450 - 00:53:45.920

Yeah, definitely needs that intimate—and that's why collection is very personal I guess. It is very personal. It's extremely personal, and it's also extremely autobiographical. And oh, yeah, that leads

00:53:45.920 - 00:54:01.770

me into volunteering a comment that, about collecting, that I would like to make, which is that: I really, I only have ever used a consultant once. And I, and to buy two pieces, and I still regret it, I still regret it.

00:54:01.770 - 00:54:13.470

Because you see, hiring a consultant is about your not wanting to make a mistake, or you're... but your not wanting to make a mistake is also about not learning, you know.

00:54:13.770 - 00:54:26.590

Because when you hire a consultant, you basically forfeit the responsibility to another person. So you're no longer engaged to make a decision. You're no longer engaged in the

00:54:26.780 - 00:54:39.480

whole learning process. Because you—you're kind of delegating that to somebody else. You know, so I–I, for me, from my style of collecting, I find that using a consultant is that,

00:54:40.200 - 00:54:52.560

i-is just not a good idea. Although I realize a lot of people do use consultants, you know. Yeah. That's actually yeah, pretty unusual that—you're the first

00:54:52.950 - 00:55:04.160

person I–I heard that, but that's... Yeah, yeah. Well, everybody wants to use it, because they don't, they want the knowledge base, they don't want to find they're making a mistake.

00:55:05.280 - 00:55:16.460

They want to verify everything. But you know, you could do that. I mean, that is the whole point, to be a collector yourself rather than to be so reliant on other people, you know.

00:55:17.590 - 00:55:31.450

So. Yeah. It also shows how like, willing to learn and how passionate you are, and real, in really collecting art. Yeah. Well, if that is the whole thing, is—see, because once you buy it, it's not fun

00:55:31.450 - 00:55:38.640

anymore. You know, it's–it's the chase. It's not the, it's not reaching the goal. You know, it's–it's the chase.

00:55:38.640 - 00:55:49.430

It's, it's the run. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Oh, thank you, Ann. My pleasure. It was fun. It was fun.

00:55:49.760 - 00:55:56.800

You asked some very thoughtful questions and I enjoyed thinking about how to answer them.