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So today is Friday, September 21st. Uh, my name is Priscilla Li. I'm Chelsey Wen. And we're interviewing Dr. Lawrence Chan for the Houston Asian American Archive.

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Okay, so Dr. Chan, we'll first start out with where and when were you born. Yeah, I was born in uh, Hong Kong in 1942, uh, within a month of the Japanese occupation of Hong Kong. Um, Hong Kong surrendered

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to uh, to Japan, um, it—it—on Christmas Day, 1941, and I was born within a month of that. So it was an interesting time, but I don't remember

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any of it. And so, what was your childhood like growing up? So, as I mentioned in this uh, chronology that I sent you, um, I—my family, several of us—I think

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it's—I forgot how many of us, but not the whole family, but several of us, most of my family, went to Macau. Macau, as you know, is a uh, peninsula, uh, about several hours, uh, by boat ride in those days,

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uh, from Hong Kong. And since Portuguese was not at war with Japan, uh, so Macau was free. And they actually uh, hope—had open arms for refugees, and the Japanese did not stop us because

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it's better to have people leave than to have them cause trouble. You know, um, you know, within the same colony. So we went to uh, Macau, and stayed there until the end of the war, until uh—Japan

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occupied Hong Kong for three years and eight months. So we came back sometime after that. And then um, you know, it was then uh, I was raised in Hong Kong so it's—apart from spending a few years in Japan.

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Um, so did you move from different neighborhoods in Hong Kong? Uh, yeah, I make a few moves. My father was in the jewelry business. We used to live in the

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apartment on top of the jewelry store that was on Queen’s Street uh Central, and…but then later on, uh, we moved to uh, Kennedy Road in Wan Chai area. And uh, we were there I

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guess for, I forgot how many years, maybe ten years ago. Then we eventually moved to Sassoon Road which is uh, close to Queen Mary Hospital, it's a little bit, you know, out, from the, from the city.

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And lived in Sassoon Road until I, you know, came to United States. Mhm, okay. Did you ever have to help out with the business, or no? Uh, I didn't really have to help out with my father's business, but it's interesting living there because

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they—they have um…uh, people were putting together the uh, jewelry, putting together the rings, and they were doing the hammering and the melting, smelting, uh, just on a different floor in the same house.

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So I knew the workers pretty well. And they loved to show me, you know, what they were doing, so it was sort of interesting. I was probably too young to be involved in the sales aspect so.

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Okay. So you were the youngest of six, total of six children? Yeah, total of six children. I was the youngest. Uh, my oldest brother is the oldest. We are about ten years apart.

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So you know, in between the two of us there are four other people. So my oldest one, my brother, and then there are three girls, and then two boys, and I am the youngest. Yeah. My—my brother is now—well, my brother now

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lives in Canada. My two brothers live in Canada. My oldest sister lived in Canada. She passed away about a year ago, and my uh—another

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sister still lives in Canada, and one of my sisters who used to live in Canada, moved back to Hong Kong, so she's now in Hong Kong. So right now there are five of us, you know, one passed away. Uh, I guess four in Canada, and I'm

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in the States. Well, actually three in Canada, I'm in the States, uh, one in Hong Kong, right now. So were you closest to any particular sibling? Uh, well, since I'm a lot younger than my oldest brother, I'm not that close to

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him, so I'll be, you know, fairly close to the brothers and sisters who are, you know, closer in age to me, but um—but I think, you know, it was a happy family.

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My, my brother, my oldest brother went to the same high school I went to, so uh, it's called Wah Yan. And um, he was, he was a hard worker. So whenever my father

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taught me, he said, “Look at your brother, try to do things like what he did.” You know, he worked very hard, so okay. Yeah. So how was um… I think I told you I uh…was a medical family, right?

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I mentioned that, yeah. Because my brother—my two brothers are both doctors too. And of my three sisters, two of them were nurses, and the other one used to work in a pharmacy, so, so a

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medical family. And I think the—the influence, you know, came from my uh, paternal uncle, number three, who uh, got his medical degree in Lingnan , which is a Chinese university.

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Then he, then he was trained, uh, afterwards in Canada, then he came back to Hong Kong and was in uh, private practice and he was doing very well, so, so he had a lot of influence on the next generation.

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Just like, did you ever talk to him about the medical field or just him being a doctor? Just him being a doctor. We talked a little bit but uh, you know, not that much, but he's a um, you know, he…he's a uh, a great

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guy. Everybody liked him that's why he was successful. You know, his personality. You know, I, you know, I don’t know how he was as a doctor but he was very popular. He's, you know, a lot of patients.

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Mhm. Okay, I see. And so how was—wh—where did you go for um, primary and secondary school? Okay, I went to a few schools in, you know, when I was really young and, you know, up to about,

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well, I think I started with about fifth and sixth grade, uh, in Hong Kong it's called primary five primary six, and that was when I got into Kau Yan. Kau Yan, uh at that time it's Kau Yan College, but they do

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have grade schools there. Then I—there are five what we call Forms, those are, you know, I guess secondary schools. So I went through Forms 1 and 2 in Kau Yan.

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And I tried to get into Wah Yan. I tried after Form 1, I didn't get in. I took the entrance exam. I did—I couldn't get into

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Hong—uh, Wah Yan College. But then uh, after uh, Form 2, I took the exam again, because uh, Wah Yan was a pretty famous top school in Hong Kong, it's a Jesuit school.

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So they don't have formal entrance exam, but when you know people, so you got recommendation letter from, you know, big shots, you get to take the exam. If they don't accept you.

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So the second time I took it, I was accepted into Form 3, so I left Kau Yan. Uh Kau—the Chinese name is different, the Yan is not the same Yan, but I put down the Chinese name there, yeah.

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So I got into uh, Wah Yan, and stayed there so it was Form—I guess Form 3, Form 4, Form 5. And Form five was an important year because that's the end of uh, secondary school.

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And there was a public examination, at the end of that whole, in all the schools participating. There are two types of exam, uh, two types of schools in Hong Kong, in those days—uh, I think they may still be similar now.

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English school and Chinese school. And I went—Wah Yan is an Irish Jesuit, English school, so the subjects were taught in English, although we also had

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Chinese. We had Chinese history, you know, some subjects in Chinese but uh, the other ch—the medium of the other subjects was English. So um, you know, we I guess learned English that way, and um,

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of course when it's recess, we all speak Chinese, you know, uh, people will say you are snobbish, “Why do you want to speak English?” So they, you know, we, we didn't want to—there were one or two who wanted to show off, otherwise, nobody liked that.

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And talking about that, in Kau Yan, I did mention, in my write-up to you, uh, I think Primary 5 and 6 were very important to me. That's when I learned English in some depth, because

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um, I learned English and grammar. I think I probably knew A, B, C, D, things like that before that, but I t—I learned grammar. The grammar in Hong Kong, the teacher was very good, was a uh, you know, I forgot her name, a woman

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teacher, she was—she taught me all, you know, the eight parts of speech and everything. It's interesting, I think people in the States, they may not realize it. Some of the best grammarians are Indians.

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Indians are very logical, so the textbooks we used were from India. They were, in fact, most schools used that textbook, the uh, the author is called Wren, W-R-E-N. But he is an Indian guy.

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Everything is so logical. So I think that was actually pretty important because I had—I believe I had very good basic understanding, uh, I would say the people

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who learned it, on average, they were better than some of the students here. When I went to, you know, when I went to Canada, I think my ‘History and Physical’ was better than the uh, Canadians, because they were

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pretty sloppy. Mine was maybe a little bit more, you know, less colloquial maybe than some colloquial. So I was just used to the strict, you know, grammarian type of English.

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Yeah, okay. So um, what did your mom do as a career? Well, my mom was a full-time mom, so at home. And uh, in those days they were very good in um, you know, taking care of the home with um, you

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know, very good in cooking. Uh, she actually was—she knew some English, which is very unusual. But unfortunately she died very young. She died when I was only twelve years old.

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Yeah. So uh, I think she was pretty smart. She had, I think, colon cancer, and she passed away, very young. Yeah. So who took care—what did your father… Well, I was already twelve, so I was okay.

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Yeah. Um, so what kind of uh, cultural traditions were celebrated? Well, it's all Chinese, you know, Cantonese. I mean the—we celebrate, you know, all the holidays that the Chinese celebrate, you know, Chinese New Year was a big deal.

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Uh, I think now it's not as big even there, but—but um, Chinese New Year, we had two weeks of holiday. And you know, Chinese, yeah and to aft—you go back to school after the 15th of the Chinese—

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you know, of January, the first month, you know, because you know the tradition. It's 15th, uh, is the day of ‘man,’ of mankind. And then each of the other days, the day of a particular animal.

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Yeah, yeah yeah. Oh okay. Um, and then af—we—so you went to the same high school as your brother at Wah Yan? Oh no, uh, oh, my oldest brother.

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Your oldest brother. Yeah. The—the other brother was—was just, you know, old—was only two years older than me. The—the one that was next to me, just uh, he went to a different school. You know, I guess he couldn't get in Wah Yan, unfortunate—we are in the same class.

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I sort of felt bad because I got—I was the only one that got in. He—he couldn't get in. And actually, uh…I got

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into University of Hong Kong, you know, I, you know, um…so after Form 5, I took the school, it's called school certificate examination. Uh, and that one is a uh—and I guess a colony-wide examination and then as I said there are—there are

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two, two tracks, English track and Chinese track. And I took the English track, um, examination, and I guess I did well, because I was awarded a Grantham scholarship.

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Alexander Grantham was the governor of Hong Kong right after the Japanese, you know, left, gave up Hong Kong. So he—there was a huge growth and all that, so it was named after him.

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And I actually started Googling, you know, the uh, the scholarship. It still exists, but it's totally different. It's—it's for some—something else now. So there is still a Grantham scholarship, but in my days, they awarded it to

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the top twenty of, you know, uh, all the graduates for that year. In those days it was about eight thousand. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I think, Grantham scholarship for two years—not much money, but

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yeah, it was still an honor, I guess. There were—I believe there were two in my class. Oh wow, that's pretty competitive. Oh yeah, yeah, one guy who was very smart, yeah, there was another guy.

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Mhm, there—uh, Wah Yan is a boy's school. Boy's school. Mhm, okay. Did you have a favorite class, or a favorite teacher?

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Uh…well, I think the teachers are generally okay, pretty good there, because there were some priests who were teachers. Some of them were outstanding, some of them were not so good, just like us. So um, I think the

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English was—was—was okay, was good. The history was good, um, we actually, in Form 5—in Form 4 we had geography but her—we—there was no geography in Form 5, so I

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didn't take geography as, you know, we have some choice. I didn't take geography. The whole class didn't take geography. There was no geography teacher for Form 5.

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Um, but very strong in the arts. It was okay in the sciences, but probably overall very strong in the arts. I, I took science class afterwards, because to get into medicine, you know, you need science. You need, well, there are two levels.

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The system is, Lower 6, Upper 6, you know, Form 5, and then Form Lower 6, Upper 6. And in Lower 6 we had to take both science and humanities, you know, English and Chinese and things like that.

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Um, so that was Lower 6, and then Upper 6. Then we have to take Advanced Level, which I took just, uh, physics, chemistry, and biology. Yeah, so I took those and I got distinction in Chemistry, so um…you

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know, after two years, you take that and with those exams, then that determines whether you are accepted into University of Hong Kong or not. And that actually was the last year that University of Hong Kong—okay, requirement is you

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pass physics, chemistry, and biology, Advanced Level, to get into the medical school. There are other schools there, you know. There's a science school, then that one you can get in without passing all three,

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but I passed all three, so I could get into medical school. Uh, but that was the last year, because it was getting more and more difficult. The reason is, my brother, he took the same exam as I did, you know.

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It was—again, I felt bad He flunked one of them. I forgot which one he flunked. You know, I don't remember whether it was biology or chemistry or whatever it—so he had only two,

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so he couldn't get into medical school then. So he retook it, he repeated that class, and he got—he gets a few more subjects, and he passed. Normally, in the past, he could have gotten into University of Hong Kong

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medical school, but because of the increased number of students, he couldn't get in, even after he repeated one year to qualify because he fulfilled the minimum qua—you know, qualifications.

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So he uh, he went to uh, McGill instead. He went to McGill—so Hong Kong system is the British system. So you get into university from this, the two intermediate classes, you know, Lower 6, Upper 6.

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Whereas Canada is the U.S. system, so he got into a bachelor’s degree, I think he took biochemistry or something at McGill. Then he got into medical

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school, you know, in uh, I think in McGill too, after he got his bachelor’s in biochemistry. So it's a different system. So I felt bad for him, . If you say, if you look at his degree in the U.S., if

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you don't know, people will probably prefer his because he's from McGill, you know, Hong Kong U nobody heard of them. Although uh, Hong Kong U is actually tougher than McGill. And Hong Kong was—had a very good reputation in Hong Kong.

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Yeah, because, you know, I guess we all felt, we thought it was the greatest school in the world. That's what people thought. I can give you an example. My uh, my daughter is married to a uh, uh, you

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know, actually, Chinese Korean born in the States. And his father, so my daughter's father -in-law, uh, was from uh, Hong Kong and Guangzhou, you know, from the, from the city. And when he heard that we are from

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University of Hong Kong, said, “Ooh, that's better than Harvard,” you know. Because it was difficult to get in and was supposed to be very, very good. So you know, he—I don't think he went to college, but it's, it's well known.

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So that, that also is another reason I was hoping I could get in, because I mentioned, I mean, in what I sent you, uh, I was accepted into MIT, but then, you know, why waste money for my family? So I decided to, you know, just stay around and hopefully I would

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get into University of Hong Kong. So I was lucky to get in. Okay. So what was that like? What was those years at University of Hong Kong like, or Hong Kong

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University? Uh, it was pretty intense, it's a five-year thing. So uh, I think that's the way things were run in the U.K.. The first two years are pre-clinical. So you take, you know, all the uh, you know, you take

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biochemistry, physiology, etc., etc., pathology. You know, first two years, and then there is a major exam called second MB. You better pass that, otherwise, you know, you can't go on uh—you can repeat I think, but you have to pass that in order to get into your clinical

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years. So the last few years are clinical, you know, clinically oriented years. So it's a total of five years, that's the British system, and—but we didn't need—we didn't need a bachelor's degree to get in.

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You know, we need the Advanced Level, which is sort of in between, it’s probably slightly below bachelor’s, yeah, yeah, but no degree. Okay. So what was like, what was your experience like um, like, treating patients, and did you like

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the medicine…? Oh yeah, I—I liked it pretty well. Uh, I feel—on my CV if you look at it, I actually was um, I got number one in pediatrics, so I did okay. Uh, they—they give a distinction, they

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called, but I was number one, I was the only distinction actually, for that class. And then um, uh, I also got distinction in medicine, you know, there were two distinctions in that class. I think may not be the

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number one, I forgot, but anyway, there were two distinctions. So I stayed, and I was uh, I did—I became—I took my internship in Queen Mary, which was the—there are a number of teaching hospitals,

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but Queen Mary is the top one, you know, they—every time they—people got distinction, more or less, they reserve space for them. So I was there for six months to do medicine, six months to do surgery.

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That's the system, then when I went to—then I went to London, Ontario, Canada. I went to University of Western Ontario. Because I—okay, I was um, very interested in academic medicine. So uh, I knew I wanted to go into research while I

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would keep on practicing, you know, treating patients. So um, uh, research in Hong Kong University, Hong Kong is, you know, limited. They don't have enough funds and things like that, in Hong Kong in those days.

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The—some of the teachers were very good, as I said, some of them went through Washington U, so they, uh, for their I guess post -graduate training, so they knew it was a good school. But I had to get into uh, the North American system

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first, I thought. So I applied to um, a few schools in Canada, it was uh—Canada was a reasonable choice because it's British, you know, commonwealth, and

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I'm—I was coming from a British colony, so everything is pretty familiar. Although the medical system was different. In Canada it's the American system. They also are the same because they have MDs, they

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don't have MBBS. You know, in the U. K. it was MBBS. So I went to uh, I did a rotating internship, was accepted to a few schools, but uh, London, Ontario was among the—amongst the pretty South, because

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it's cold in Canada. So I went there, and I saw my first snow. Yeah, in my life, so that was interesting. It wa—it was a good school. I, I learned a lot and um, and uh, it's very, very

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interesting because, you know, I—I'm sort of reserved individual, so in Hong Kong, in those days, you know, people are more reserved, and I was more reserved among the reserved people. So uh, for example, at rounds, you know, what we call rounds is the professor

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seeing a patient and doing some explanation. You know, I was the type who wouldn't speak up until I was asked. There were one or two who would speak up a lot, and some of them are not that good, but in

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Hong Kong they— they knew, in more realistic terms than us. Um, you know, in Canada again, I kept my tradition. I didn't really say too much, so you could say, you know, they could have missed me, but fortunately, uh,

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whenever the resident who was senior to me couldn't answer the question, they asked me and I knew the answer. So uh, I think I impressed them. It's important to get—you know, I mentioned recommendation from a school in North America.

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If you want to get to another school in North America. Eh, you can probably get into a good school without that, but I think if your recommendation is in part from a school there—because people didn't know much about, you know, Hong Kong U.

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So I get, I got into essentially all the schools I applied to. I applied to the three best hospitals in Toron—in—Toronto, Montreal, and um, Vancouver.

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I got in all three. Then I got in multiple places in the United States, because I think I needed some—well, and they also saw that I did my internship in Canada. I think that helped a little bit.

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Okay. Did you have any culture shocks when you came to Canada? Uh, not too, not—not bad. Yeah, yeah I—I think my English was okay, so I understood everything.

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So it um, well, culture shock in that it was just…you know, I think London, Ontario was the fourth or fifth largest city. It was like a tiny village to me. At that time it was a hundred thousand.

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I think that was London, Ontario. And, you know, Hong Kong at that time—I purposely look up the population of Hong Kong in different times. Just to show the contrast, because you want to me to compare Houston and Hong Kong.

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It's very different in the sense that Hong Kong is so crowded. Yeah. So you went to London, Ontario to do, um, your residency, or…? Uh, my internship. Internship.

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Yeah, I—I did that just to be safe. It turned out that it was probably not necessary. But it's okay, you know, I enjoyed it. I had a good time. And also I guess get a little bit

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even more used to the American sy—to the North American system. I probably would speak up a little bit more. Yeah. So what did you do afterwards? So I went to um, St.

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Louis, Washington University. Yeah, turned out to be a really good school. It's a top school. You know, those days it was probably ranked number four in the country, yeah. So um, my

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residency in internal medicine, so I did um, you know, you call—they call Junior Assistant Resident and Senior Assistant Resident, you know, in Medicine. So I took care of patients and uh, you know,

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conferences and things like that. Uh, no research, you know, for two years. There may be some people who do some research, but I, I never did any research during that year. It's difficult, you know, it's busy.

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You may participate in some, you know, minor research, but no research during those two years. So…so after my Senior Assistant Resident, uh, I decided to um—that I liked to do academic medicine, so uh, I applied and got into—well, I

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applied as—went across the street to the biochemistry department and talked to the, the chairman there, said I wanted to do two years of biochemistry. He was very happy, because the chairman was actually an MD, Roy Vagelos, he's pretty well known.

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He said, “You're welcome to come to my lab, but you're also welcome to talk to uh, you know, I'll give you a few names of a few professors.” So I talked to uh, Luis Glaser, uh, who was a professor, PhD, and I thought he was, you know, he seemed like a nice guy, very good, so I—I

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joined his lab and spent two years in his lab. And why did you to choose to go into academic res—like, academic medicine? Um, I think I always had some interest. Yeah, even from the beginning.

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Yeah, I looked at my professors and I wanted to be one of them. I wanted to be one of them, so… So you did two years of research and… Two years of biochemistry, it's called uh, it's called postdoc.

00:30:34.780 - 00:30:53.350

Postdoc, okay. Yeah, postdoctoral fellows, so I did two years, and um, Luis Glaser he was—he was a very nice boss. In fact, that was when—he also…it was at the time, uh, let me see, yeah, later

00:30:53.380 - 00:31:07.000

on, later on he also wrote letters for me for my immigration, yeah. So I was there for two years, uh, so I had some uh, research experience.

00:31:07.440 - 00:31:17.410

I gained some research experience. That's one of the things that's a little bit weak in Hong Kong, because the research, you know, was not as well developed as in the United States.

00:31:19.390 - 00:31:33.520

So I decided to, at that time, to go into endocrinology. You know, endocrinology and metabolism. So I looked around the country and decided to…well, it's interesting actually. I—I—I…I

00:31:35.250 - 00:31:51.290

picked two places. I picked Harvard, Massachusetts General Hospital, which is probably the top hospital, both most well known hospital, academic type of hospital, in the United States, because they uh, in the

00:31:51.290 - 00:32:03.730

New England Journal, they have—they always have case studies at the Massachusetts General. So I applied there, and I applied to Vanderbilt, because Vanderbilt is well known for endocrinology. So um,

00:32:04.820 - 00:32:19.470

Vanderbilt, no, okay. Mass General, Harvard, paid me for an interview, so uh…I flew from St. Louis, I was in St.

00:32:19.470 - 00:32:33.430

Louis then, to Boston. On the way, I stopped by Nashville, and I interviewed at Nashville at Vanderbilt. And the Chief of Medicine

00:32:36.350 - 00:32:49.940

was uh, a very well known endocrinologist. So the Chief of Medicine had lunch with me, and, you know, talked me into joining Vanderbilt. Uh, in those days at least,

00:32:51.120 - 00:33:01.090

when you’d finish your residency, and, you know, in a pretty good place. And then you have two years of biochemistry, yeah, that means you're committed. So I think I was a good candidate in that sense.

00:33:02.220 - 00:33:21.530

So he spent an hour and a half with me, and had lunch together, and then he—he had a fellow, you know, one of his research fellows, one of his fellows, take me around to look at different places. So I uh, met with some scientists I wanted to work with.

00:33:23.370 - 00:33:39.610

Um, so uh, there was one scientist there who was very well known, uh, who uh, you know, you've probably heard of cyclic AMP, he was the one who uh, really did tremendous amount of work on cyclic AMP.

00:33:40.230 - 00:33:50.510

That was the beginning, you know, as the signaling type of molecule and things. So I talked to him in his lab. He, he didn't do lab himself, but he

00:33:50.510 - 00:34:12.050

had an assistant who was really good, talked to him. And then um, I also um, heard about another guy. Uh, I—who was uh, in a different department, uh, okay, they—they…the cyclic -AMP guy's name was Earl

00:34:12.410 - 00:34:26.400

Sutherland, very well known. So there was another guy who was there that I, I didn't know whether he would be interested in, you know, interviewing me, and, and he—and I asked, and they said, “Okay, he'll

00:34:26.420 - 00:34:42.480

be happy to talk to you.” So I uh, I interviewed with Bert O'Malley, who was new there, who went there maybe two to three years ago, he was more junior. He was—he was very young, very impressive because

00:34:42.790 - 00:35:01.350

he was young. So I talked to him, he said he would be happy to take me. Okay, so—so I spent a whole, you know, about five hours at Vanderbilt, then I took the connecting flight to Boston. And I stayed at one of the faculty's home, um,

00:35:02.920 - 00:35:13.300

an assistant professor there. They—they were very nice to me. Then the next morning I was going to go Mass General to meet the big shot, a very well known guy by the name of John Potts.

00:35:13.720 - 00:35:33.220

He was a very well known in bone metabolism, you know, world expert. It's a little bit like the Vanderbilt chief, he was a world expert on his—in his area. So I went there, and he was not in his office, so I spent time sitting there playing

00:35:33.220 - 00:35:47.010

with my fingers, and then actually it's sort of interesting, there was a, uh, uh, an old and elderly, uh, woman, um, whose name was Anne Forbes.

00:35:49.170 - 00:36:02.880

She was in her eighties. She took pity on me. She said, “Oh, come in, let me talk to you,” so I talked to her. She was fascinating. There's a syndrome named after her, Forbes Albright Syndrome. So he—she's well

00:36:02.880 - 00:36:18.090

known, but she's in her eighties, she's very dynamic, so I was very impressed with her. And then uh, you know, the—the fellow also took me around, talked to various people, and finally, the boss came back

00:36:19.580 - 00:36:32.610

and talked to me. So I compared, you know, both well known guys, Mass General, you know, Harvard, great. And Vanderbilt, the Chairman of Medicine had lunch with me.

00:36:32.610 - 00:36:44.990

He treated me well, with respect. This guy, you know, I had a great time with Anne Forbes, but not with him. I mean we—no we—no, when he came back, eventually, you know, he missed his appointment. He didn't come until

00:36:45.480 - 00:36:58.940

much later. I talked to him, and he was, you know, he would sell his place and things like that. I'm sure it was a good program, but mainly because of the way I was treated, I say okay, Vanderbilt. So that's why I went to Vanderbilt.

00:36:59.770 - 00:37:11.900

So you never know what—what happens. And actually uh, Harvard paid for my trip. I just stopped by Vanderbilt. So I went home, and then I

00:37:11.940 - 00:37:31.120

decided to go to uh, Vanderbilt. So that was, July I guess, uh, 1972. I finished my residency in St. Louis in Washington U, and my biochemistry, and I went

00:37:33.010 - 00:37:46.950

to Vanderbilt. And then— yes. Well, it's an interesting story. I got there on a Friday, and as usual Bert O'Malley was out of town. So my wife and I went out and

00:37:47.460 - 00:38:05.670

rented a—rented a house, it was um, sort of duplex, and then bought a uh, refrigerator whatever, and then moved in. And then on morning, Monday, he came back and I talked

00:38:05.670 - 00:38:23.450

to him, he said, “We’re moving.” So I said, “Wait, what?!” Anyway, uh, he was being recruited by Baylor, so he uh, he essentially said he was moving here. So uh, you know, I talked to

00:38:23.830 - 00:38:38.590

the boss at Vanderbilt. He said, “Well, try to talk him into staying.” But it didn't work, and he decided to leave. Uh, and to me, uh, the research was important.

00:38:38.590 - 00:38:50.900

So I decided to—to move to Baylor. Although at that time, Baylor, really, there was only one endocrinologist. It was a very minor program, but I decided to move here anyway.

00:38:52.130 - 00:39:05.310

And then um, at that time they also recruited a new endocrine chief. He came a few months after I did, so there was a chief. Uh, but I was um, you know, so I moved in, and I both worked with Dr.

00:39:05.310 - 00:39:16.430

O'Malley in his lab for a few years, and I, you know, joined the faculty in uh, medicine, and in Bert O'Malley's department. That's how I ended up in Houston.

00:39:17.380 - 00:39:32.890

Oh, and you stayed with Bert O'Malley? Uh, yeah, for a few years. Yeah, yeah. How was like, the demographics of your lab? Well, when I first—when I was staying in his lab, it was his lab, so I was uh, sort of

00:39:33.740 - 00:39:44.880

a, uh, instructor, you know, which is a glorified postdoc instructor for about uh, actually for a year. I was lucky, they promoted me pretty fast.

00:39:46.000 - 00:40:00.600

You know, so I became an assistant professor. Then um, I stay on, published a couple papers with him. And then, you know, the rest is about my research career, which is

00:40:00.910 - 00:40:16.940

sort of interesting, a different topic, in a, in a way. Because um, there was—there was, when I was—it was in the midst of my immigration crisis, because I started it when I was in

00:40:16.940 - 00:40:30.030

Vanderbilt, and I had to continue on, uh, doing it in Baylor in Houston. So the people I knew in Washington U would write letters for me, you know, Bert O'Malley would write letters, and

00:40:31.120 - 00:40:46.050

other people would write letters, and um…I told you the American Heart, would write letters. And, and I couldn't have—I wrote it a nice grant and got it, but somebody else was the PI, so um, you

00:40:46.180 - 00:41:02.900

know, it was very, very, you know, restrictive, so I decided I've got to get immigration. So I got it, I guess, you know, so went through all that, and got the bill signed by

00:41:02.960 - 00:41:14.910

Jimmy Carter in 1977. I moved to Baylor in '73, so it took four years. So during those four years, you know, I had to be working,

00:41:15.840 - 00:41:27.010

under other people in a way, although I got the grant. But you know, he, he was reasonable at the end, you know, the grant was probably for five years, at the end of that he said, you know, you—you take it with

00:41:27.010 - 00:41:43.180

you, uh, for the renewal. Yeah, so uh, so I applied for renewal and, under my own name then. So that was… And also American Heart did help me, because they gave me

00:41:43.530 - 00:41:59.700

a grant—in addition to—American Heart grant, there's one called Established Investigatorship. That's a grant, it's a salary grant. So I was Established Investigator for five years. And one of the fellow investigators was actually a Nobel Laureate.

00:42:01.000 - 00:42:15.170

So during those times, I did mostly cardiovascular stuff because my research led me there. You know, I went wherever my research went. So you see a lot of my, you know, awards and things like that,

00:42:15.760 - 00:42:26.610

American Heart, a lot of them. I—I—this big prize was cardiovascular -related. Right, so I did well in that area.

00:42:28.090 - 00:42:43.780

After some twenty years, I decided to gradually go back to more endocrinology and diabetes, because I went to meetings and loved them, heart meetings, I gave, you know, lectures there,

00:42:43.780 - 00:42:57.860

and you know, uh, cardio—cardiologists make a lot more money than when—when I started in endocrinologist. So I didn't even make that much money, although I was make—you know, presenting more papers than they did.

00:42:58.650 - 00:43:09.160

So I said, “Well, I better try to move back into the uh, endocrine area,” so I started doing things in diabetes. I mean luckily, you know, everything I did was lucky. I had

00:43:09.240 - 00:43:22.190

good people working for me, and I, you know, we immediately publish some high-profile papers for endocrinology as well, in diabetes especially, and pancreatic islets, you know, things like that. I got—got

00:43:22.620 - 00:43:38.820

back in the, you know, go to meetings and more—and switched as the cardiologist also, go back to my time. Um, were other people in your lab also of like, Asian descents, and like, were you ever treated

00:43:38.890 - 00:43:51.230

differently, do you think, because of your race? I must say I didn't—I didn't really feel it. You know, I didn't feel that. I think possibly yes, but I'm an

00:43:51.380 - 00:44:09.410

optimist, I always, you know, fairly confident, and…I can tell you an experience I had with another assistant professor. I was asked to uh, write a, a chapter in a book, the chapter here.

00:44:09.410 - 00:44:23.070

So I thought, Oh, maybe uh, you know, he's in the same department, he's a PhD, I asked him to write it with me. So I wrote my part, I asked him for his part, we’re gonna put it together. His English is outrageous.

00:44:24.560 - 00:44:43.870

He went to high school, college, he's an—he's an American. He's Caucasian. I rewrote the whole thing for him. He did talk to me afterwards, he admitted, he said, “Your English is much better than mine.” So…

00:44:43.870 - 00:45:00.790

Are we…? Okay, yes, thank you, we're good, sorry. Okay, so I um, so I guess that's—that's overlapping my immigration at that time.

00:45:02.430 - 00:45:21.460

So um, finally I got my immigration in 1977, got the bill passed in Congress, and um, could start having my own grants. Um, were you ever like—

00:45:21.660 - 00:45:33.470

And the other, I guess—oh yeah, there are—some of these things are later, so let's, uh, look at the chronology, so what happened? Oh, I was gonna ask, were you ever gonna—like, scared that you

00:45:34.980 - 00:45:47.240

maybe couldn't stay in the U. S. and that you would have to go back to Hong Kong, or were you— Oh I—I—I—I—I was worried. I was worried, um, you know, I—I

00:45:48.170 - 00:46:00.550

guess I'm, you know, I'm, I’m optimistic, but I was worried. And my wife is a real worrier. In fact, I was lucky she was a worrier.

00:46:01.930 - 00:46:15.260

I worry, you know, I clam up and, you know, just worry t—to myself. She talk—she talked to everybody. She's very outgoing. She talked to everybody, to our neighbors and to everybody she met.

00:46:15.730 - 00:46:31.430

That's how I got—got to know al—Lamar Alexander, so thanks to her. You know, I had, you know, not really worried that much, which is bad actually, because it was a very serious situation, you know.

00:46:31.490 - 00:46:44.020

Um, so what were some challenges that you faced, doing research in the beginning, and then as you kept going? Well, I think the main thing is I didn't have immigration, so my grant-generating ability was, you

00:46:45.080 - 00:46:58.970

know, constrained by the, the fact that I couldn't be a p—PI, principal investigator. I couldn't be the—my own boss, for a few years, except for the American Heart grant, which they uh, they somehow liked my

00:46:59.060 - 00:47:11.950

grant and they waived my requirement. I told them, of course, I told them, you know, I applied—I applied for permanent residence. And eventually they wrote a letter for me actually, so that was nice. Um, and then,

00:47:14.540 - 00:47:26.760

so what were some—so your main challenge was immigration? Yeah, that was my major challenge, yeah. To get funding and everything, okay. Well, funding, yeah, funding, I was very lucky, I was

00:47:28.380 - 00:47:45.610

um—in those days funding was a lot better. I think those were the…probably the golden days of research. Because in those days, NIH would fund roughly…twenty to twenty -five percent, nowadays

00:47:47.780 - 00:48:04.090

it's ten to, ten to uh, maybe thirteen, fourteen percent. When you get funding one in ten, out of a hundred people, you can't really look at a grant, you know, I—I was a reviewer for, you know, for many years.

00:48:05.490 - 00:48:19.120

Number eight is the same as number twelve out of a hundred—you can't tell. So you know it's—it's really, it's impossible to—to know how good you are, to guarantee you'll get—get it funded.

00:48:19.760 - 00:48:37.070

But if you can't get it one in four, then maybe you shouldn't be funded. You know, it's very different, one in ten and one in four is totally different. So, you know, now-a-days, I think it's better, the last year or two, but for a period of

00:48:38.240 - 00:48:54.950

fifteen to twenty years, you know, the funding level was ten to fifteen percent, it was very—I think too low. I think at least twenty percent, you know, is reasonable. You know, two out of ten is not easy,

00:48:55.480 - 00:49:09.200

but it's okay. You can compete. One out of ten is just crazy I think. So how would they differentiate between proposals? Well, it uh, reviewers.

00:49:09.600 - 00:49:25.760

You know, I mean, we're all human, so we all have our biases. So that's why it's so erratic, because the psychology is very s—your psychology is different when you know the funding is low.

00:49:26.980 - 00:49:42.700

When you look at this, okay, you can say, Oh, I don't like this, I mean it’s good, but if one in ten should get funding, this guy shouldn't be funded, so let me give him uh, fifteen to

00:49:42.700 - 00:49:58.430

make sure it doesn't get funded. If I like this guy, Oh, well, I like his science, I like it, let me give him a five. You tend to, you know, push outside, so you get, you know, you want to kick out the ones you

00:49:58.430 - 00:50:14.450

don't like, and then try to make sure the ones you like get funded. That's bad. But in, in the old days, when funding was twenty -five percent, then, you know, you let the chips fall because you don't know whether it's going to be twenty-two or twenty-seven.

00:50:15.700 - 00:50:30.150

And of course you know the ones that are really bad. The ones that are average won't get funded, but the ones that are pretty good, they have a chance. So I think that's, you know, that's the psychology. So when funding is bad it's—it's a little bit erratic.

00:50:31.580 - 00:50:42.440

Yeah. So did you have any mentors in the research field that you wanted to talk about? Men— Mentors? Mentors? Well, I—I guess Bert O' Malley was my mentor in a way.

00:50:44.600 - 00:50:56.630

Um, and then um…but I, you know, watch other people. I mean he, I mean he's run a very successful lab, but I'm, you

00:50:58.180 - 00:51:13.800

know, I, I learned a lot from being around his people, because he's good, so the people who work for him are good. So the conferences, um, you know, some very smart people would speak up and I'd listen, you know. They’re real smart and I learned from them, so I keep learning.

00:51:14.940 - 00:51:28.700

So that’s good. I guess, yeah, in the old days it's good…because um…because for many years I was lucky, because I could get funding. So my lab, for probably a period of maybe twenty-five,

00:51:30.410 - 00:51:43.210

thirty-years period, probably vary from at least ten or twelve people to, to some twenty people. So, so, so uh, they are good people.

00:51:43.860 - 00:52:02.030

So, yeah…they helped me publish a lot and things like that. So I was, I was, I was lucky, you know, occasionally you get some bad ones. Yeah, of—you know, I'm lucky I haven't had too many really bad ones.

00:52:02.360 - 00:52:13.500

Mhm, okay. Um, did you want to talk about how uh, your lab was affected by Tropical Storm Allison in 2001? Yeah, that was a long story.

00:52:15.440 - 00:52:36.330

Um, yeah, the tropical storm was uh, in the region—it's interesting, it's not even a hurricane. It's a tropical storm. And the flooding, eventually, was not like Harvey. The flooding was localized, you know, very small

00:52:36.370 - 00:52:54.930

region. Around the medical center and a few more miles. So what happened was, um…heavy rain on a Friday, I think it was June—I think I put down

00:52:55.010 - 00:53:19.930

the date. Uh, all day, very heavy pouring down. That day was what, nineteen…yeah, uh, 2001, yeah. Uh…now I, I mention that, at that time,

00:53:21.340 - 00:53:38.640

I had a lab in the basement, a big lab. Uh, two big rooms in the basement. Uh, around April or May in the year 2001, and then uh, had a renovation, a very nice

00:53:38.820 - 00:53:52.670

renovation, then spend maybe a month or so renovating the lab. Beautiful lab at the end. And uh, you know, the Museum of Natural Science interviewed me, uh, during that

00:53:52.670 - 00:54:10.930

time, in the beautiful lab. So that was nice. Then on June 8th was Friday, heavy rain all day, and then, you know, I—on the 9th, a

00:54:10.930 - 00:54:27.580

Saturday—I always go back on Saturdays—I went back to Baylor, and I could hear water flowing, and Bay—Baylor was black, uh—very dark inside, no power. So I walk toward my lab, and I could hear water

00:54:29.220 - 00:54:45.560

flowing in different parts. And my lab was in the basement, so when I look in the basement, I saw that there was, you know, maybe six inches of water. So I waded in water, and on the wall it’s not,

00:54:46.340 - 00:55:05.180

it’s not six inches, you can see the water line, it’s probably about four feet of water during the night. So everything was destroyed. And huge number of mice were destroyed because they were mostly in the

00:55:05.180 - 00:55:22.900

basement. They were either drowned, or even the ones that wouldn’t drown, actually we couldn’t use them because they were in the dark. They had no light, they had no feed. Anyway, and people went to wade in to save some of the mice—some of the mice

00:55:22.900 - 00:55:35.410

that were on the top, on the top levels. And I lost well over 3,000 mice. University of Texas—I lost more than the whole university, across the street.

00:55:36.340 - 00:55:47.410

Because my lab was big. I think I was number—I was number-two user in terms of size. I think O’Malley was number one. I don’t know how many he lost; I might have lost more than he did.

00:55:47.410 - 00:56:03.050

So I lost—I essentially lost everything. Uh, so the lab people, you know, came back, et cetera, uh, so we had about 18 people or so, something like that.

00:56:05.040 - 00:56:19.890

So uh, it’s interesting as I said, I’m sort of a calm guy, maybe not sensitive enough. I—you know, I felt bad, but not that bad. I felt, you know, got to start again.

00:56:21.440 - 00:56:37.990

So um, as I said here, all the people stayed with me. There was one new postdoc who started only a few weeks before. He left because he couldn’t take the stress, but he was new, so. So—so I said we should move—keep moving.

00:56:38.900 - 00:56:52.210

So I uh, had my lab meeting here, in this room, you know, once a week, to—in fact, we didn’t have a lot to talk about, but I wanted to keep their spirits up, because we couldn’t do experiments.

00:56:53.550 - 00:57:07.640

We couldn’t do experiments for a—for a few months. But I had to keep their spirits up for everybody, and we had to do some planning. And as I said, I had one technician who was very good, you know, who kept track of everything, you know, he

00:57:07.930 - 00:57:21.520

did uh—estimate what was—what was lost, et cetera, and at the end, we discover we lost more than 3 million dollars worth of stuff, which really didn’t take into account a lot of other things.

00:57:22.220 - 00:57:34.020

You know, lost productivity, things you can’t count, so at the end it’s probably a lot more than that. So um, we didn’t have a lab, but people are nice.

00:57:35.230 - 00:57:47.940

People often have space, you know, even in the University of Texas, I have friends there, said, “Oh, you want to send a couple people, you’re welcome to.” So I actually had a couple who worked there, uh, only for a short while, maybe for like, maybe a

00:57:48.360 - 00:58:08.670

week or two, until we decided to change things. So um, and finally after a few weeks, the um, somebody in an unflooded part of Baylor, uh, it was the Huffington Center for Aging, so the chief who’s uh, a good

00:58:08.730 - 00:58:25.460

friend, Roy Smith, he said, “Oh, come, you know, we have some space.” As I said, he thought I had three or four people, he didn’t realize he had to find room for some 20 people. But you know, even when he found out, he said, “Okay, you know, we’ll work it out for

00:58:26.510 - 00:58:37.690

you.” So I moved there temporarily, but temporarily was more than two years I think. So we moved there, moved to new office, and just start everything.

00:58:38.670 - 00:58:54.790

Had to start from the beginning. We essentially lost all our mice, uh, we lost our rabbits. The rabbits were…were not killed. I think—I think most of them were rescued, they rescued

00:58:54.860 - 00:59:10.420

them. But in the confusion, the rabbits were valuable because those were very rare rabbits, because they were what we called transgenic rabbits. Transgenic mice are— I wouldn’t say a dime a dozen,

00:59:10.750 - 00:59:22.930

but they are pretty common, but it takes time. But transgenic rabbits were very rare, because it’s much more difficult to produce. And we had them, but they were mixed up.

00:59:22.930 - 00:59:36.200

So when I tried to do experiments, what I thought was a transgenic—we did a—checked the DNA, it was not. So we, we got rid of all of them, so we lost all of them.

00:59:36.200 - 00:59:50.780

So um, in terms of animals, it took us a long time to rebound. And of course some of the projects there were ongoing. It was easier to just cancel them, you know, forget it. You know, do it from the beginning, takes you another five years.

00:59:51.890 - 01:00:07.670

So we started moving to, you know, maybe some alternative experiments, alternative things. I actually wrote to the NIH, you know, told them what happened, they actually gave me some money,

01:00:09.300 - 01:00:22.620

so I got some extra money—I don’t remember how much, not, not, not the whole grant, they gave me maybe 50,000, whatever number, I forgot what it was. Um, because I was the head of the program project.

01:00:22.890 - 01:00:40.240

A program project means you have three or four projects, but other PIs. The other PIs’ labs were not flooded. NIH gave them the same amount of money. I was the PI. We each get say, a proportion of what you have, so

01:00:40.240 - 01:00:53.790

they benefited tremendously. No, I could have said, “My lab is destroyed, should I take it all,” but no, then I said, “No, this is for you.” So I just distributed it as though everybody was flooded.

01:00:55.050 - 01:01:06.920

So there was some help. So that, so the whole thing, probably, you know, was a setback that lasted quite a few years, but, you know, we got through it.

01:01:06.920 - 01:01:18.170

It was not, not, not a major problem. It’s, it’s a little bit—it’s an interesting experience. Because for example, I was hit the worst in Baylor.

01:01:21.400 - 01:01:34.970

When I was walking around, whenever I saw somebody who knew me a little bit, theysaid—they kept on saying, “Oh I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” I said, “Why are you sorry? I don’t feel that bad.” But they knew that, you

01:01:35.230 - 01:01:47.100

know, I lost everything, so they kept on saying I’m sorry. I—I just—I didn’t feel as bad as them, you know, I thought I, I felt okay. I guess it’s my temperament.

01:01:48.020 - 01:02:03.570

So uh, Baylor was very supportive, so I actually—during the flood, after the flood, they have a war room, okay, they put down, how do you put things back together. So one time, maybe after two weeks or something like

01:02:03.570 - 01:02:21.860

that, the um, the chief, uh, the chief administrator, you know, let me into the war room. On top of the war room, eh, chalk, you know, they put down how do you, you know, divide up stuff, and what do you do, what do you

01:02:21.920 - 01:02:41.530

plan. Top, “Larry Chan, colon, whatever he asks.” I didn’t ask for much, but that was uh, very impressive, so I was very happy. So

01:02:49.940 - 01:03:06.830

did it great ju—you just went to other alternatives on your research path? Oh yeah, uh, you know, I had to do, and I had to change some of the experiments and things like that. But that was, you know, that was okay, that was pretty simple. Yeah. I uh, when you’re

01:03:06.830 - 01:03:22.030

used to it, it’s okay. Yeah, that’s why I didn’t, didn’t really, uh, worry too much about that. You know, I worried, but, no use worrying, so I just went on. Okay. And so you traveled, uh, throughout the country as well as the world to give lectures and talks

01:03:22.080 - 01:03:37.220

and stuff, and you said your—you had pretty unique experiences that— Yeah, yeah, it’s very interesting, because some of the places I went to I probably wouldn't have gone there, you know, if it, if it was not an invitation. You know, I mentioned some of them, for example I

01:03:37.330 - 01:04:01.530

went to, uh, what—I mentioned some of the places. Um, in Europe, uh, what did I say, close to Sarajevo, uh… You said

01:04:06.520 - 01:04:14.990

you met, like, interesting people? Is, is that— Uh interesting part, and interesting people. Oh, well, for example, I was invited to go to

01:04:15.180 - 01:04:31.650

Riyadh. And originally my wife wanted to go with me. So—and after a while, we decided, Oh, you know, I should just go alone. And…I was—because she would go with me in unusual places.

01:04:32.470 - 01:04:47.650

So we thought that way usually, it turned out that it was good she didn’t go. Because if you’re a woman, you go there, you’re treated like trash. It’s very, very harsh if you’re a woman. You know, you got to cover up before you go

01:04:47.700 - 01:05:01.920

out, and um, you know, when you’re walking around, if—I think, what, five times a day? Anyway, when the mosque sings out something, you have to stop and pray.

01:05:03.320 - 01:05:13.000

If you don’t, they beat you up, they have the morality police, they beat you up. You know. So um, I mean of course, I didn’t walk around that much.

01:05:13.540 - 01:05:29.050

Apparently when you drive it’s okay, you don’t have to stop driving. And then, if—even if she came, she wouldn’t be able to go to—if we go to a restaurant, she wouldn’t be able to go with us. Because in the restaurant, the women go to the back, it’s a different

01:05:31.640 - 01:05:42.990

room. What country was this, sorry? Hm? What country was this? Uh, Riyadh, that’s the capital of Saudi Arabia. Oh, okay, so… Yeah, I mean it’s an interesting experience for me because I went

01:05:43.030 - 01:05:53.870

to the uh, I walk—walked around a little bit, actually took some pictures. When I took a picture, there was a, a girl with her mother, she

01:05:53.870 - 01:06:09.510

screamed. Apparently they were taught if you’re, if you’re in the picture, you lose your soul—steal her soul, her soul. So she screamed, and her mother knew and just took her away, you know. And it’s

01:06:09.510 - 01:06:24.620

interesting going through security, so, you know, they search me and go th—and all that. But when a woman cover up everything, they just wave and she can walk—they don’t search her.

01:06:25.860 - 01:06:44.510

So it can be a man. A man can just dress like that and walk through, you know. So I said, very, very interesting, so… Yeah, the other—the other place I went to—let me see, I sent you an email, I

01:06:47.890 - 01:07:04.820

forgot— Oh, let me—yeah, it’s here. Yeah, Slovenia. Uh, Ljubljana. It’s interesting because I probably would

01:07:04.820 - 01:07:21.610

never visit that country if I were not invited. Uh, it’s a very small country, it’s—my wife and I went together. We spent about uh, four or five hours. We took a taxi, and visited the country, the mountains.

01:07:23.240 - 01:07:43.100

The reason it’s interesting was World War I—was it World War I? Yeah. Was started there. It’s—and beautiful trees, valley and scenery. The beautiful scenery hides—about a million people were killed there.

01:07:44.220 - 01:08:00.340

It was the first place where poison gas was used. So, you know, people just die, and there’s—there’s—as you know you cannot control it, the wind may blow the other direction. So I visited—it’s beautiful, but.

01:08:00.520 - 01:08:17.080

They have museums, and we stopped by museums, you know, beautiful place, and kind of, “Whoa,” around here, you know, 600,000 people here died on this part, and then…so places like that. And like

01:08:17.540 - 01:08:27.200

Riyadh, and this place. So you go to places that you normally don’t go to. In addition to some of the other, nice scenic places.

01:08:28.480 - 01:08:46.200

I went to Japan a lot. Because I train a lot of Japanese. Lots of Japanese. In fact, uh, I don’t know what they uh…I trained, if you include summer students, I trained probably over 30 Japanese.

01:08:47.140 - 01:09:03.300

Because they actually send me summer students, only for the summer. But even without those, I probably trained—well it must be more than 30, I must have—include those, probably 40, 50 people. Because in the summer, some students would come and spend several weeks in my

01:09:04.300 - 01:09:18.870

lab. I set up a formal, it’s, you know, agreement, between—it was, uh, Shiga University and Baylor. Because I trained so many of them, the postdocs, and decided, uh, they wanted to send us students.

01:09:20.350 - 01:09:32.430

So I—when I go, you know, so I’ve been to Japan probably 20 times. Yeah. And my wife loves it, collected Japanese stuff, you can see

01:09:32.660 - 01:09:45.460

some of the—you see the kimono, uh, doll? You assemble it yourself. It comes with it in a kit, so. Nice. So how are you involved in like, other aspects of the

01:09:45.510 - 01:09:56.210

research commun—community? Um, did you want to talk about—like you mentioned diab—how you organized diabetes— Yeah, I think, I think probably I highlighted the diabetes story because it was

01:09:57.040 - 01:10:12.310

interesting. Because I was um…diabetes, uh, community in Houston was sort of in the background, not too much stuff.

01:10:13.460 - 01:10:28.910

I think until I became the um, uh…what the head of—I mentioned something, I forgot. I don’t know my official title. I was president of something, of the local, uh,

01:10:30.250 - 01:10:40.720

chapter, yeah, it was a big chapter of, you know, southwest. And because I was also—partly because there were very good administrators, name was Ralston, Ralston something.

01:10:42.400 - 01:10:58.550

So um, I organized—so, that’s one thing, and then we have Diabetes Walks. So we would, you know, make up things like that

01:11:00.430 - 01:11:16.860

every year. And people would join, join me and my lab group, plus my section, the Diabetes Center and some other Baylor people.

01:11:18.070 - 01:11:35.820

And this was different, I got this one and gave a talk at uh, TSU. So, you know, we, we participate in activities like that. So that’s part of, you know, being

01:11:35.820 - 01:11:49.070

the president of that for a few years. And then even after, I was not that—got involved. So every year we do that, and then I also have Diabe—we call it Diabetes Day, over at Baylor.

01:11:50.050 - 01:12:00.090

So we would invite a lot of people and I would give lecture, you know, at the level of the people, about diabetes and diabetic complications, things like that.

01:12:00.860 - 01:12:21.270

And um, people would come, you know, some for example, uh, Dr. Chao’s family came once, to that. And uh, also get with the uh, ADA, local ADA, they would sponsor

01:12:22.160 - 01:12:41.770

sort of um, schools they have—I, I forgot, I call them ambassadors or whatever—so those are…all actually women, young women, who uh, who support diabetes, but they were themselves became

01:12:43.440 - 01:13:00.070

celebrities, you know, had big dinners and things like that. So a lot of activity related to diabetes. Because I, you know, I have a—since I, I got the diabetes center to Baylor, and then there

01:13:00.120 - 01:13:15.260

was a big sign there, I guess I didn’t bring it, there was a big sign, that says, “Diabetes Endocrinology Research Center” on the wall, on, on my floor, yeah. So I think these are activities that I introduced to uh,

01:13:16.520 - 01:13:33.750

to Baylor and to the community, so there were a lot of, you know, things like that, uh, at that time, for maybe, for about probably 15 years, something like that, yeah. So how would you like, define success in research?

01:13:36.310 - 01:13:48.660

Define success in research. I guess it’s a very difficult defi—definition. Yeah, because uh…you know, do you define it by how much money you generate?

01:13:49.030 - 01:13:58.600

Or do I…I think theoretically, I think it’s very hard—depends—there are different ways to define it, I think that’s— different ways you look at research.

01:13:59.560 - 01:14:13.630

I think it, most imp—I think probably…important discoveries is probably the most, to me, that will be the most important part. Obviously, when you look

01:14:13.830 - 01:14:32.080

at—people look at—anybody look at research, they will say, “Oh, well, it’s well funded, usually it’s good, when that—” But I think, you know, yeah, that’s also true, that’s in general. But I think, um, you know, there are some people who got a Nobel Prize who only

01:14:32.080 - 01:14:47.240

published two or three papers that were worth Nobel Prize. But that’s it, that’s good enough, you know, you don’t have to publish hundreds of papers. It’s not necessary. So it really depends on how you define it, um,

01:14:49.130 - 01:15:04.140

I think, you know, some discoveries are more important than others. Yeah, so it’s uh, hard— hard to, hard to define. I think if you just look at funding, I mean generally, they go hand in hand to some extent. But some of the best researchers are not uh, are

01:15:05.710 - 01:15:18.320

not necessarily uh, are researchers who are well funded. Yeah. Well, what do you think attributed—attributed to your success? Well, I guess uh, I’ve been lucky.

01:15:18.430 - 01:15:34.360

And I was—I had good people working for me. I think it—yeah, people work hard, the people who work with me, you know, they get along. So my lab group, they get along very well.

01:15:35.910 - 01:15:53.870

And I, I have uh, Christmas parties here, since I became chief, uh, invite about 60 people, so. Well actually, I, I have two parties here. One is really for the uh, faculty and others, uh,

01:15:56.570 - 01:16:09.860

related to Baylor, uh, faculty, and then another one is my lab. My lab is, you know, maybe about 30 people. But here, for the other one is 40, 50 people.

01:16:11.970 - 01:16:25.090

It’s—my wife does all that, she’s a, she’s a perfectionist. She’s really excited when she does that, but she’s very—but she’s also very worried, so she works hard on that. Yeah. So how did you meet your wife?

01:16:26.940 - 01:16:47.690

Um, I think I was uh, her younger brother’s godfather. I went to, you know, Jesuit school, she went to Maryknoll Sisters school. And her younger brother was in uh, Wah Yan, uh,

01:16:49.850 - 01:17:05.000

so I, I was his godfather. His younger brother is now a big professor at MIT. Actually he’s a PhD there, he’s uh, head of the Lincoln Lab—anyway, he’s a big shot.

01:17:06.440 - 01:17:27.070

Um, so um…let me see, there was something else I was thinking. So, you know, my wife is, I think, very talented. She uh, she was a teacher, she taught geography.

01:17:28.760 - 01:17:46.100

We travel quite a bit now, and she studies up, you know, but even…she’s so committed when she travels, she knows the destination place better than the locals. She would talk to them, “Yeah, shouldn’t we take bus

01:17:46.100 - 01:18:02.530

number seven instead of number four?” And she was right. Something like that. So she’s, you know, very, very good. She also happened to be uh, uh, play in

01:18:03.860 - 01:18:13.520

the equivalent of the World Cup in badminton three times, in Hong Kong. When she was a young—a teenager. Yeah, she

01:18:13.580 - 01:18:25.930

represent Hong Kong three times in the—it’s not called the World Cup, it’s called the Uber Cup. Uber Cup is badminton. Then it’s a little bit—Thomas Cup is tennis, Uber Cup, you, you—yeah.

01:18:27.380 - 01:18:49.840

So what year did you marry? Got married in uh, I think it’s in there, uh, after we went to uh, Canada in 1967. Yeah. And I read in the bio, like, that she gave up her job to…

01:18:49.840 - 01:19:05.620

Oh yeah, yeah yeah. She—well, I went to London, Ontario, so she also applied to University of Toronto, because she—you know, she has a uh, bachelor's degree in geography. And she actually has a

01:19:06.310 - 01:19:16.010

diplo—in Hong Kong we call it a DipEd, diploma of education. So she was a well qualified teacher, she taught, you know, senior high, well, for a very short time in Hong Kong. She taught the top school too.

01:19:18.120 - 01:19:32.540

At that time, my school was top school, the school she taught was top school. Now, we are talking about say 40 years later, her school remains number one, my school has gone down a lot. Well the reason is, my school changed policy, but they, they decided

01:19:32.540 - 01:19:44.060

to change. Mine was a Jesuit school, hers was a um, Episcopal. Anyway—Protestant, but it’s not really the religion. It’s the philosophy. The

01:19:44.170 - 01:20:05.060

Jesuits, at least, probably about 10 years ago, for my school, they had a choice of either turning down government subsidy and charge more in tuition. If you take government subsidy, which

01:20:05.850 - 01:20:20.370

they decided to do, not because they need the money, because their philosophy was to teach the masses. S—if you take subsidy, you’re committed to taking students sent to you from the

01:20:20.450 - 01:20:31.370

government at a certain level. So you cannot be as selective. Whereas the school she went to turned that down. You know, it’s called St. Paul’s Co-educational College.

01:20:32.650 - 01:20:48.090

And that was—the school she taught in is number one in Hong Kong. Has been number one for many years. It’s crazy. They c—they could have entrance examination, thousands of people line up for one position.

01:20:48.250 - 01:21:04.760

You know, it’s crazy. So uh, my school is, I guess the, you know, we, the graduates, they…I didn’t participate, but many push our school to turn down subsidy.

01:21:05.790 - 01:21:22.030

So they might change policy, because we used to be top. It was a very good school for…for general education, because um, we were fairly independent.

01:21:22.450 - 01:21:38.540

The Jesuits gave us a lot of independence, so I mean, you know, Hong Kong, Chinese, we used to, you know, force freedom. Not much freedom, but the Jesuits treated us, you know, with respect I guess in those days.

01:21:38.770 - 01:21:53.070

Now there are very few Jesuits, very few priests. So the people had—in general had leadership, in those days. For example, uh, government officials, the

01:21:53.470 - 01:22:11.250

leaders, the governor, many of them were from, from Wah Yan College, yeah. So it’s common—it’s one of the most common sources, you know, of uh, leadership. But now uh, I think some of the,

01:22:11.250 - 01:22:27.330

we call old boys, you know, from Wah Yan, they voted to turn down government subsidies so that they can—their reputation can go up—back up again. So that’s what happened. Mhm. So when you were doing research, um, how was like, your work-life balance,

01:22:28.640 - 01:22:38.420

and is—I read that your two children were born in St. Louis when you were doing your um, research. So how was that like?

01:22:38.420 - 01:22:52.020

Um, well, I must say…my kids, I mean, my kids, they have done well. They would have been, um, totally neglected kids without my wife.

01:22:53.740 - 01:23:03.770

She took over everything. Because she was a teacher, so she’s uh, you know, she was after them. She, she was sort of a tiger mom.

01:23:03.840 - 01:23:17.340

So, but, but, you know, she did well. I—I would say if I were the one to take care of them, I, I’m not so sure they would have done what they are doing. They are both doctors now, they’re both physicians.

01:23:20.300 - 01:23:37.390

Um, so, I—sorry, jumping around, but uh, what characteristics do you think a good scientist should have? Well, I think you—it’s important to be honest, so in—integrity is important.

01:23:39.180 - 01:23:57.730

And then a sense of uh, discovery, like new things. Yeah, like to go for new things. If you had to choose again, would you have chosen medicine, and then doing—going into research like you did, or…?

01:23:57.730 - 01:24:11.870

Uh, it’s hard to say. Probably? I probably—meaning in my days, you know, we just used to study and things like that, so probably would be like that. But now-a-days, I probably, you know, I would have

01:24:11.910 - 01:24:26.970

been more free I guess, now-a-days to pick what I want. You know I—I wouldn’t be surprised if I were born again and do something maybe, I don’t mind going to music or, or other, other things, yeah, or, or

01:24:27.310 - 01:24:45.330

paint. I used to draw very well, I—I was, you know, I was the best “drawer” in my class, and then I did a little bit of painting. But now I haven’t done it for a long time. You said— So I think I, I would be more free.

01:24:46.010 - 01:25:06.190

But I was, you know, somehow very constrained, when—because of, you know, the time I was born in and uh… Um, and then, at home, do—right now, do you speak Cantonese, or… We speak Cantonese. Okay, um, so how—

01:25:06.250 - 01:25:22.030

So I’m Chinese to other Chinese, and I’m Chinese American to non-Chinese. Oh okay, I see. I’m comfortable as Chinese American, but I’m also very comfortable as Chinese. I guess Chinese in

01:25:22.030 - 01:25:38.210

the sense of Cantonese. There’s a subtle difference, as you know, you know, slightly different dialect. My, my wife is, you know, Cantonese, she’s good in Mandarin, my Mandarin is terrible.

01:25:39.840 - 01:25:56.450

You know, I um, I go to Taiwan, I was on the committee for, uh, for about 10 years. Uh, Taiwan is trying to start a uh, an institute like the NIH, they call

01:25:56.700 - 01:26:13.100

it National Health Research Institute, NHRI. And I was among a batch of about maybe 30 to 40 Chinese, um, who, who were active in research in uh,

01:26:14.810 - 01:26:31.940

in the west, I guess. So majority from the States, maybe a couple from Canada, maybe a couple from the U.K. They invited them back to Taiwan, that’s in the 19—early 1990s, started

01:26:32.800 - 01:26:48.180

that. So I went back every year. And because my Mandarin was bad, for NHRI, they um, the official language was actually English. So I could get by, but when a whole bunch of Chinese

01:26:49.220 - 01:27:03.440

who speak Mandarin, when they get together, even if the official language is English, they started speaking Mandarin to each other. And because my Mandarin was awful, I misunderstand them and I don’t understand what they’re

01:27:03.440 - 01:27:22.980

saying often. So it’s um, uh, I know a little bit, but sometimes I know enough Mandarin to get into trouble. That’s the problem. Okay. Um, so did you want to talk about the June Dove Leong symposium?

01:27:22.980 - 01:27:37.340

Uh yeah, I think, I think you probably have never heard of it before. She’s a very, very nice lady. Uh, she was—it was interesting, she was very active.

01:27:37.960 - 01:27:51.880

Let me see, I had something—I, I—this is it. Her obituary. She was born here, she

01:27:51.950 - 01:28:07.590

was a, um…the crown princess of the state of Oregon. I think, you know, some sort of—I don’t know whether it’s beauty or talent or whatever. Uh, and then um, travel with the royal court

01:28:07.930 - 01:28:27.270

across the United States and Cuba, you know. And then uh, she’s so nice, she started the June Dove Leong symposium to get together all the um, uh, Chinese doctors in Houston

01:28:28.470 - 01:28:46.720

to meet to exchange, um, ideas, and to uh—she paid for everything. She paid—we meet at a restaurant, I forgot, once a month maybe, I forgot. So it’s called June Dove Leong

01:28:46.720 - 01:29:06.320

symposium. So that’s how we interact, that’s how I got to meet all these people. And she’s very sweet, it’s interesting. Yeah, she was—yeah, she was born in Oregon I think, but I—you can—I, I looked

01:29:06.320 - 01:29:22.190

it up, yeah, she passed away, you know, about…some time, some time ago. So I think—especially old doctors like me, we are grateful to her because I—I met a lot of uh, you know, most

01:29:22.190 - 01:29:36.640

senior doctors, because the symposium stopped maybe 10 years ago, or maybe a little bit more, yeah, because she was getting up in age. But it was uh, it was, she was, she did a lot for the Chinese doctors in

01:29:36.640 - 01:29:52.190

Houston. You know, now there is a, a club, CADAH, Chinese, uh, Association of Doctors in Houston, whatever. CADAH. Chinese American Doctors of Houston or whatever.

01:29:52.550 - 01:30:04.290

Uh, but she did that before there was CADAH. In fact, the CADAH was started by someth—somebody junior to me, who probably even went to the symposium later on.

01:30:05.220 - 01:30:18.300

So she was very important for the Chinese doctors, I think, for the early generation. So how have you seen like, the Hous—Houston, I guess, Asian American science field change over

01:30:18.350 - 01:30:30.920

the years? Like… Oh, it’s changed a lot since the um, the rise of China, right? Now, when I first came, there were very few Chinese.

01:30:32.190 - 01:30:47.580

And then maybe a few, from Taiwan, very few from Hong Kong, you know. But now it’s 90 percent from China, you know, some from Taiwan, very few from Hong Kong, now-a-days.

01:30:48.440 - 01:31:05.250

So things have changed a lot, you know, in terms of where they are from. But, but now there is, you know, CADAH, as I said, so people belong, some people belong to that for doctors. And then um, you

01:31:05.250 - 01:31:19.950

look at the professors in Baylor, MD Anderson, you know, different—University of Texas, um, there are more and more Chinese professors. MD Anderson, especially, quite a few, professors.

01:31:21.650 - 01:31:37.560

Most of them I think are uh, from uh, from mainland China, a few from Taiwan. Uh, I think with time, people like you will gradually, you know, take over, local-born,

01:31:39.260 - 01:31:54.900

but still quite a few from China, yeah. Because China only opened up—opened up only um, probably since the uh, the late ‘80s and early ‘90s, and then I—I

01:31:55.310 - 01:32:10.400

guess in the last 20 years, it’s gotten, you know—a lot of people. It’s changed a lot. Yeah. Did you, over the course of your career in research, did you ever want to go back to practicing medicine?

01:32:11.620 - 01:32:20.050

Remember I still practice. Oh, you still practice. Okay. You know, okay. When I was—I was chief of endocrinology.

01:32:20.160 - 01:32:32.130

Mhm. Oh okay, sorry. Yeah, yeah, so I was… I, I, I, I practiced in Ben Taub, supervisory. I, I more or less, you know, see patients.

01:32:33.090 - 01:32:47.960

I see the wealthiest few and the poorest. The wealthiest, at one time, for example, you know, Dr. Chao’s brothers came to talk to me about

01:32:47.960 - 01:33:04.640

their father, so those are the wealthiest. Right, but I also see patients at Ben Taub who can’t afford to pay. So uh, I don’t see people in between that much. But I see patients at Ben Taub

01:33:04.640 - 01:33:18.430

mainly to teach. Teaching, yeah. So how many hours—how was—how would your week go? Well I think I, uh, I pick months. I, I only do it—several months, things like that.

01:33:19.650 - 01:33:31.120

You know, some months, things like that. Yeah. Oh, okay. Did you have any questions, Chelsey?

01:33:31.190 - 01:33:48.310

Um…do you have any advice for students like us maybe who want to go into medicine? Well, uh…go after your dream. Just push after what you want to do. I think you’ll do well. Rice is a

01:33:48.350 - 01:34:05.390

good university, so. Um, and would you mind telling your story about immigration again so we can get it on…? Okay sure. So um…yeah, I can

01:34:07.600 - 01:34:23.400

talk about the immigration, uh, story. Did I summarize it somewhere? I think I did. Very briefly, but I can—here, here I did… talk about that.

01:34:23.830 - 01:34:40.810

Okay, so I was at Vanderbilt when I applied for immigration, and that was at the advice at Vanderbilt, you know. Because Hong Kong was a peculiar situation, they did not know that. So um, when we

01:34:40.810 - 01:35:03.650

found out that it was not straightforward, that’s when, you know, we met doc—uh, Lamar Alexander. So…and found out that there is no, you know, no—actually, no option other than a new law that would

01:35:03.650 - 01:35:17.360

allow me to become a permanent resident. I might bring up that, you know, Lamar Alexander was not an immigration lawyer. Which was actually, you know, gave us—it was wonderful that—what he did for

01:35:18.400 - 01:35:30.620

me. If it were an immigration lawyer, my wife’s name would have been in the bill. Because they would not say, “Oh, we won’t pass it because his wife is not—” no, you always keep, you know, couples together, so it will still pass.

01:35:31.010 - 01:35:41.610

But then he’s not an immigration lawyer, so he didn’t know the intricacies. But he work hard, he—he’s very nice. You know, I was very impressed with him. He actually ran for president.

01:35:43.190 - 01:35:56.500

Didn’t get too many votes. So, he tried, you know, he maybe get one or two percent, very, very low, pretty good. And he’s nice in the sense that he’s really sincere.

01:35:58.160 - 01:36:11.270

He didn’t charge us that much, you know, I don’t remember exactly how much it was. But…my wife thought maybe a couple thousand, I thought it was only a few hundred. Anyway, very minimal for what was—what he did and what

01:36:11.270 - 01:36:23.710

was accomplished. Because he was in Washington. I first found out, he met the head of immigration. But of course, uh, I understand that he actually worked in the White House before.

01:36:24.350 - 01:36:40.500

So it was not that hard for him, but at least he had to do it. And the other thing I want to um, share with you, is the fact that he’s a very empathetic guy. You know, he um, you know—Maria,

01:36:40.830 - 01:36:53.090

my wife, is a worrier. There were times when we call him at home, and he would talk to us on the phone, you know, he would hear because we were worried, for half

01:36:53.090 - 01:37:12.480

an hour. He did not send us a bill. So that was very, very exceptional. So um, he was um, well…I think I told you, he invited us to his inauguration.

01:37:13.270 - 01:37:29.600

You know, unfortunately, we didn’t go. And then, subsequently, you know, I listed his positions. So he became governor, and then became president of University of Tennessee, Secretary of Education, and then became

01:37:29.600 - 01:37:40.710

Secretary of Education for George, you know, the other George Bush, H. W. Bush. And is now senator, senator for the last, or since ‘02.

01:37:42.020 - 01:37:59.790

So he’s been senator for—of Tennessee for a long time. So, so he’s uh, he’s a great guy, and I included his uh, actually, his inauguration invitation. So that

01:37:59.890 - 01:38:20.040

was…so that was an experience, and as I said, I—I learned a lot because, you know, the senators, I—I watched them on TV because it was days of Wa—Watergate. You know, that’s the important committee, and, and I learned how—how a bill works, because uh, you got to have two

01:38:20.040 - 01:38:35.670

bills, one in the Senate, one in the House. So uh, at the end, you know, they passed. Took a long time. Because we didn’t push because people thought that, Oh, you know, he just wants to stay in this country, and I just—and

01:38:35.900 - 01:38:51.990

I said I—I can’t survive here, you know, doing academics if I don’t have a permanent residency, I cannot apply for grants. So that’s what happened. So it was nice that they did all that for me, yeah.

01:38:52.980 - 01:39:06.410

And you also said Barbara Jordan was also very nice in helping you. Uh, she was very nice. I actually, I saw her, but I didn’t meet—I meet with her aides. Yeah, um, yeah, she’s a

01:39:07.740 - 01:39:21.690

very—she—she was in the um…uh, Water—Watergate committee too. I did meet many of them, uh, in the—I think the judiciary committee. And she spoke like a, you know,

01:39:23.680 - 01:39:37.200

boom, she has a booming voice, and a very beautiful accent. Amazing, very amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She’s well known for that, apparently, yeah. I think the whole family is very, very well educated.

01:39:39.160 - 01:39:57.940

Yeah. She—I think she—unfortunately died pretty, maybe in her s—early 60s or something, so she, she died pretty early. Okay. Um, I guess turning now towards like, your present life and any—do you have any hobbies

01:39:58.010 - 01:40:11.620

and like, side interests that you’re pursuing? I understand that you retired in 2016? Right, I retired in uh, yeah, 2016. In July 2016, yeah.

01:40:12.840 - 01:40:27.570

So my wife and I travel a little bit more, you know. Went to various places and, and…we can also visit our kids a little bit more. But I can’t visit them

01:40:27.570 - 01:40:43.660

a whole lot more, the reason is now-a-days, I mean, you can tell me, they are so busy. They have so many activities. You know, when they were kids, okay, my son had soccer, my daughter had piano. You know, very few things.

01:40:44.650 - 01:40:57.070

Now they’re—every night they’re busy. You know, wi—wi—with their kids. Yeah, I don’t know why. Yeah, yeah, for both—both of them, my son’s kids and my daughter’s kids.

01:40:57.610 - 01:41:05.260

So they are so busy. So the world has changed. I think it’s too—they should have—they should relax a little bit more.

01:41:05.850 - 01:41:21.180

Are they in Texas? Or… Uh no, that’s the problem. My daughter is—lives in uh, Saratoga, that’s close to San Jose, in California. Yeah. My son lives in uh, Andover, that’s in

01:41:21.180 - 01:41:39.350

Massachusetts. Yeah, I mean, a few days ago they had uh, you saw the news? The erupt—the gas lines burst, and houses that uh, had explosions and all over Andover, North Andover, and

01:41:39.350 - 01:41:49.440

Lawrence. That was in the news. National news for a few days. Houses were destroyed, one—one guy was killed because of, you know,

01:41:52.150 - 01:42:05.980

uh, uncontrolled gas pressure. I don’t know what happened. Um, you mentioned, you mention that you wanted to start picking up art and ping pong again?

01:42:06.050 - 01:42:16.740

Yeah, I’m doing some ping pong now. Okay. I want—as I said, I, when I was young, I was pretty good at drawing, and I did a little bit of painting when I was in St.

01:42:16.740 - 01:42:29.130

Louis. I, I took some painting lessons, did some painting. I was—I seemed to be okay. I did pretty well, but then I haven't done in a long time. So I might—might do it, or I

01:42:29.130 - 01:42:45.910

might pick up singing, I don’t know. I have a low voice, maybe it’s good for singing, I don’t know. So what would you consider your greatest accomplishments so far in life? Oh, I don’t know, I think I’ve

01:42:48.260 - 01:43:05.490

done fairly well, uh, both at work and uh, in the family. I think my, you know, proud of my two kids. They do, they’re doing well, they both graduated from college, both became doctors, and each—they each have

01:43:05.490 - 01:43:19.290

three kids, yeah. Did you put pressure on them to do medicine or…? Um, okay, in terms of getting them to work hard first, that was—I would have to give

01:43:19.450 - 01:43:31.660

credit to my wife. Okay. ‘Cause uh, all their success is all caused by her. You know, I think if—if I were the only one I don’t think they would have accomplished what they have accomplished.

01:43:32.030 - 01:43:52.000

Um, and um…that’s the main thing. So let me see…what was the question again? I was answering part of it only. Like your greatest accomplishments, and then I asked, did you push

01:43:52.250 - 01:44:06.460

them into medicine, or like how you influenced them? Uh, no—well, yes and no. My—okay, my two kids, they um, they—they both did okay and got into

01:44:06.640 - 01:44:24.440

medical school and all that. The—the difference was um, my older daughter, she—she’s very smart. She—she went to Bellaire, you know, she—and then went to Harvard.

01:44:25.160 - 01:44:37.050

She—she could do anything and she would do pretty well. You know, she played piano very well, et cetera. So uh, so in college, I think

01:44:37.050 - 01:44:52.960

what we suggested to her. She was a good writer, she wanted to write—things like that. We all— we strongly suggested her to have a profession. And then do whatever she wants, once she has a

01:44:53.000 - 01:45:05.290

profession. So she became a doctor. My son wanted to be a doctor anyway, so. So that’s why she became a doctor, otherwise, she may be a poor writer, I don’t know.

01:45:07.630 - 01:45:23.780

Yeah, she’s still, you know, she’s— she’s smart, she has hobbies, you know, makes pottery and then she uh, she used to have um, a website that uh, talk about how to uh,

01:45:23.780 - 01:45:38.550

handle problems with kids, with children. She’s not a pediatrician, she’s an adult, she’s an—so she, she has a disclaimer at the end saying that, you know, “see your pediatrician.” And she also has a website.

01:45:39.400 - 01:45:56.090

She works at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center. She has a website updating topics in medicine. She, you know, she updates it, and it’s um, subscribe. You know, you get to

01:45:56.090 - 01:46:11.060

the site by subscription. You know, even, even UCSF would go there and subscribe to it. So the, uh, so she’s the only one who—she—she started the website, she maintains it, et cetera.

01:46:11.760 - 01:46:22.540

She’s very modest, so she puts down the names of all her colleagues. I mean, she’s included in there, but she’s the only one who’s working on it, so that—she likes to do things like that.