00:00:00.120 - 00:00:15.450

Hi Chelsea, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Should I do a different backdrop or just not do a backdrop at all? I like the backdrop actually, what is it a picture of? So um, there's apparently a weird weather phenomenon called

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a “horizontal rainbow”, and this happens in the Northwest like in Washington State or Oregon, and the photographer got a picture of it earlier this year. And it looked really cool.

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So I thought I’d use it as a backdrop. I'm from Seattle, so yeah. All right. Yeah. So thank you for agreeing to do this interview with the

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Houston Asian American Archive. I'm just going to be asking a couple questions about, like your early life, your education, career, and then some additional topics with some special questions about the current

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COVID pandemic at the very end. So yeah. Today is May 11th, 2020. I am Chelsea Li, and I'm here with Kevin Nguyen. And so the first question is where and when were you

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born? So I was born here in Houston, more on the suburb side. So specifically, I was born in Clearlake, Texas. But then, my family

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immigrated from here from Vietnam and we moved all over the place in Texas, and then had a brief stint in San Antonio and—New Jersey, and then came back to Houston. So can you describe like the neighborhood and community that you grew up in?

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That's a little hard to answer. Because by the time I went to college in 2003, that was already my ninth school growing up. So I went to a couple elementary schools in Katy,

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and Houston proper. Spent a year in San Antonio, and then five years in Atlantic City, New Jersey, and my parents got a little homesick during one of our spring breaks until we went to go visit Houston,

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and we moved back in 1998. And I went to middle school for one year in Spring Branch at Spring Oaks Middle School, and then went

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to high school; all four years at Spring Woods High School in Spring Branch ISD. And then when I went to college, I went to Baylor, which was in Waco, Texas. Yeah, what was like living in so many different places kind of shaped your childhood and growing

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up? Well, it kind of sucked. I mean, just to be honest, well— only because just coming from a duality perspective, like you want this whole Western ideal about coming into

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America, and then kind of having all of those American Dreams or Western dreams. So like, to be fulfilled within your own upbringing. And but when I grew up and got older, I realized why we had to

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do that, because then my parents were immigrants from the Vietnam War, and so they had to become refugees in neighboring countries. And so my mom ended up in Malaysia with my aunt.

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And then my dad ended up in Cambodia or Thailand. And so when they immigrated here with a sponsor, they ended up in different states. So my mom ended up

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somewhere in the Midwest, Missouri/Minnesota. I want to say Minnesota, and then my dad ended up in Oklahoma, and then they got married in Texas. So within that, like they already grew up with such

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a nonlinear livelihood that they got kind of used to it. And so when they became full-fledged green card holding citizens, they started doing chain migration for other family members.

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And while other family members were coming in, we eventually had to find jobs and sustainability for all of them. So the next route would be to move to New Jersey.

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And so when we moved to New Jersey, we lived in Atlantic City, because understanding now from an older perspective that like casino jobs are a lot easier to obtain because of the fact that you don't need as much education.

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Because then my family had to either hold back or forego a higher education because of the fact that they had to leave a war-torn country. So even my mom to this day, can't apply for jobs

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and say that she has a high school diploma because her high school actually burned down, back at home. So a lot of my family are very smart, very resourceful. And so they knew how to at least do the

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math and some of the statistics on how gambling works. So it worked out that we lived in Atlantic City for five years. And so some of my aunts and uncles still live in New Jersey. But then like I said, my family came back to Houston

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during a spring break during 1997 -98, and they got homesick because a lot of family well, “family” came over on boats together and so they had a

00:06:03.160 - 00:06:17.880

lot of friends that became family with the immigration process, and then visited them and got to miss home a little bit. Because Houston was a big hub and also a good safe space for Vietnamese

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American—well Vietnamese transplants and then becoming Vietnamese Americans, and that's why our Houston population here in Houston is so strong in Vietnamese. Because then a lot of Vietnam War folks

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left and then came here and then also the weather kind of matched up with Vietnam, with the humidity, a port city, some of the trade also. And so it was nice that my parents came back.

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It was nice to come back to Houston. I liked New Jersey, but then I really don't appreciate the cold as much. Yeah. So would you say you have like a favorite of the places that you've

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lived? I would say all of them have their own fond memories, but I'm still very much a Houstonian at heart, which I love. 'Cause then I also picked up a little bit of Spanish because then that's kind of part of the

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community and population here, which is always so interesting, because then let alone some of the stereotypes and some of the microaggressions that Asian Americans receive, while other community

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members, is that like, they don't always expect you to know so much English, then they don't also expect you to know not so much Spanish either. And so it was really cool.

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And I think in itself, it was good for growing up that I was able to be more flexible, or versatile, because then, while going to college, I was away for only three hours since Waco is a three-hour drive.

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But then I was also close enough to visit home. But then when I went to grad school, my graduate program was in the outskirts of LA in California and then before my grad program, I took a year off

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as a hiatus between my undergraduate and graduate program. And so I lived in Thailand for a year and was an English teacher. And so traveling was already set in me and kind of not as much of a deterrent compared to others.

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So I kind of liked that aspect of it. Kind of sucked that I didn't have as much of the longevity or lifelong friends that some people have. But in the long run, in the future, I did build very strong relationships

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here in Houston, and still keep them here too. Yeah, so growing up, or was it just your parents that you lived with, or? Uh, for the most part, so I have two other siblings.

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One older brother, one younger sister, so I'm the middle child. My parents wanted a girl on their second try, but they got me; and five years later, they got my sister so they got the best of both worlds for the most part.

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And we lived together for most of our time growing up, there was a brief stint where we lived with our grandmother and some of our uncles and aunts in New Jersey, because of the fact that we were all

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transitioning from Texas. And so funds were limited and circumstances with the way they were, but the nice thing about being

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Asian or being in our culture is that we're very collective. And so we still hold out for each other, and it makes sense to live in a house with multiple generations.

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So it was very supportive. I always felt like that but then once we got more established, then we got a place in New Jersey. And but then— even then, just how the government

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was, or just how the market was, we ended up moving three or four times up there. So where we're just kind of used to moving and transition, which, like I said, so instilled a good foundation just to be

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adaptive, and then also understand that some things aren't going to be permanent. So then for my family, the same thing happened, and especially with the war, and understanding that was

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what really gave me my foundation and my own personhood, to see where I'm at. So did being like a middle child kind of give you any new like unique perspective?

00:11:08.290 - 00:11:21.700

No, not necessarily, because my brother and I are only a year apart. And so we were treated very much like twins because then my brother and I are the oldest within our, our generation.

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So then our other cousins and stuff, who were the oldest, so we were always treated to make sure that we took care of them and watched out for them. And then the only difference I would say was just growing up gay.

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And then that's a different kind of perspective and lifestyle mode that I'm still kind of navigating with my family. Because in Vietnam, there's usually two religious perspectives, normally, and that's going to be Buddhist

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or Catholic. And so the Spanish and also the French colonized Vietnam for a while, and so they brought with them Catholicism, and some of that was also some of the factors for sponsorship from my family.

00:12:08.850 - 00:12:25.420

And that's great. But then they're not very big on the homosexuality aspect because then part of even our culture and in religion, part of growing up in adulthood is to have a family and procreate.

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And so the hardest part was... I call myself the "Golden Black Rainbow Sheep". Because then it's kind of hard where, since I was a middle child, I also had to

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fight or make myself more relevant or at least given attention; because of the fact that I had to fight the attention of a youngest sister and then also compete with the oldest brother, and who's in most Asian

00:13:02.200 - 00:13:14.860

and other people of color cultures, is the— going to be the male heir or male dominant person, that is in the family line.

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And so being gay doesn't help. But it gives me another perspective and also a lens to kind of see where my family was coming from. A lot of it

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more was running away. And that's why I decided to go to Thailand for a year. I studied biology when I was at Baylor.

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I try to fit some of the Asian American stereotypes of becoming an Asian doctor. And I did fine. I was good in my studies in math and science, but

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in itself wasn't very much a vocation calling for me. And so I think if I didn't have the gay obstacle or perspective, either, that I would have probably been

00:14:11.320 - 00:14:27.890

more in this cognitive dissonance, figure out where I was or who I was in terms of my family and myself, but since they weren't very big on the whole gay side, I was able to kind of get that early on in high

00:14:28.080 - 00:14:39.660

school. I tried to come out when I was 15/ 16. I was given an ultimatum of either going to college or becoming a Catholic priest. And taking a vow of celibacy.

00:14:40.800 - 00:14:51.190

I went to college. And it was great. And then, so I also understood that it's kind of hard for them.

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I did go through this moment of disdain or contempt for my parents, but unfortunately, I also understood my role as an Asian son and also as a Catholic son. So you know, the fourth commandment is honoring your father and

00:15:10.250 - 00:15:21.970

mother. And same thing with Asian cultures, is to respect your elders and also the generation that was before you. And so it took a

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while, but then with good support from friends and social groups, I was able to kind of come to terms with it. We kind of have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in my family, but I feel like communicating and

00:15:38.490 - 00:15:52.290

also connecting to other Asian Americans, that's very common place because then there's certain things that whole Western and Eastern divide brings into our dynamic that it's kind of always hard to bridge.

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So as you mentioned, you were raised up Catholic. Do you think that really like shaped your life like growing up and even like currently? Oh, yeah, definitely. So, um, while in New Jersey,

00:16:12.440 - 00:16:27.250

we spent one year in public school, I got in a fight. My parents weren't very happy about it. And so they ended up putting us into Catholic private school. So I actually

00:16:27.250 - 00:16:39.220

was pretty “gung ho” about Catholicism. So I was a choir boy. I was an altar boy. I also was a Knight of Columbus, which is the fraternal society for men in of

00:16:39.770 - 00:16:59.410

the Catholic faith. It really kind of builds you up a lot where you, you need a faith structure. And so I really understood that more later on when I moved overseas and got to experience that on my

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own while living in Thailand. Because then while in Thailand, I got easier access and cheaper access to visit other countries. And so during my stint in Thailand, I got to visit Vietnam,

00:17:15.120 - 00:17:25.760

Cambodia, and China. And so my parents have, still, to this day haven't been able to do a big family reunion with, with my brother, my sister and my parents.

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But since I was given the opportunity to be over there, they were like "you need to go visit." And so I went to go visit, I got to see a lot of how they were raised and brought up in the environment they were in.

00:17:40.780 - 00:17:57.360

And so understanding that a little bit more and understanding their faith journey was where a little bit more stronger and closer to them. And also going to Baylor, Baylor being a Baptist school, was also

00:17:57.360 - 00:18:09.250

an interesting perspective because in a lot of Protestant faith Christians, don't always see Catholic Christians as the same. And so already

00:18:09.250 - 00:18:24.280

knowing that divide or that dynamic because it just being like this same idea of being Asian American. You kind of grow up either defending it or forgoing it. And then so on my side I decided defend more.

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Because then I really do appreciate a certain aspect of having the universe or whatever higher being might be in control. Because then I, I've been given this question a couple

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of times too where, how do I feel about the Vietnam War when, historically, we know that it's kind of an unjust and unnecessary war? But if it wasn't for that war, I don't know if I would be here because my parents

00:18:57.110 - 00:19:08.740

wouldn't have actually immigrated. And so it's kind of a “double edged sword”, where you want to get that perspective and also kind of understand kind of how the ripple effect works.

00:19:09.230 - 00:19:22.990

And so, I would say in my faith journey, I still identify as Catholic. I'm just not a good practicing Catholic. And, but at the same time, it has really

00:19:22.990 - 00:19:40.120

instilled who I was and who I am. And also kind of also understanding my parents and another perspective, where, yes, they don't really appreciate, or kind of really understand the homosexuality or

00:19:40.350 - 00:19:54.550

LGBTQIA circle. But a lot of the argument normally is, that if your parents are coming from a faith background, then they should love you unconditionally, because you are a gift from

00:19:54.550 - 00:20:06.970

God. And if they have conditions, then they don't truly love you. But then if we go with an argument and reverse it, and if I have conditions on them, then how am I being any much better?

00:20:07.680 - 00:20:20.930

Yeah. So what were your— the occupations of your parents? I think you mentioned the casino, but wasn't exactly... So yes.

00:20:20.930 - 00:20:35.930

So my mom and dad have done all kinds of jobs. So—just to survive. So we were latch-key kids, so they work full time just to like support three kids. And my mom currently is a

00:20:35.930 - 00:20:47.860

stay-at-home mother. And then my dad is an electrician. And so it's an honest pay. But they're hardworking folks,

00:20:47.960 - 00:21:01.560

which I actually appreciate and love about them one time, and my dad has a great network of folks in Houston that he works with. And sometimes he's actually given a

00:21:01.560 - 00:21:11.360

lot of appreciation because of the fact that he's so honest. And like since he grew up the way he did, and so one time he actually got $100 tip from someone, and he said it was too much.

00:21:12.560 - 00:21:27.030

And I really appreciate that about him because then he–he knows the struggles of how life is and what it was being immigrant with cultural barriers, language barriers, and whatnot.

00:21:27.500 - 00:21:41.170

But he would never take advantage of another person. He has his own set of values and perspectives about certain communities. But all in all, he means well, and

00:21:41.170 - 00:21:56.180

so just my mom, my mom has worked in retail, she's done, uh, manufacturing stuff with computers. All in all, she still just wants to be a family person.

00:21:56.730 - 00:22:13.240

And so that's been the biggest thing that I really appreciate about her. And my dad is just that he's a patriarchal, all kind of person. And so he's the youngest of 12. And then my mom is middle of eight.

00:22:14.000 - 00:22:30.790

And so they're used to being around a lot of people and a lot of family members but also being supportive. But my dad being the youngest and a male, he also understood his role in supporting family based on his

00:22:30.790 - 00:22:47.220

status. And so he had to grow up a lot faster, a lot quicker than most other folks that I would imagine or haven't been exposed to. And so, even though

00:22:47.300 - 00:23:02.060

age is just a number and there are societal roles, he holds them true. And he also follows through because then my mom's side of the family came over first in the 90s and early 2000s.

00:23:02.650 - 00:23:14.680

And then my dad's side of the family started coming over in 2007 and 2010. So even when they came over, he found them jobs.

00:23:15.120 - 00:23:32.110

He put down payments for their homes and made themselves established because he wanted to be a supportive family member where he could be that resource and that rock which I can, which you can only respect.

00:23:32.710 - 00:23:52.170

Yeah. And did your parents have any like expectations for you? The biggest expectation is to do succeed and not squander away, I guess the advantage or the privilege of coming to the States.

00:23:54.350 - 00:24:07.770

I think I've done that. I just haven't done it in their eyes or their terms, which is kind of unfortunate. I have a Bachelor’s in biology and a Bachelor’s in health education and a

00:24:07.770 - 00:24:21.270

master's in counseling in development. I've worked with the University of Houston as an economic advisor and I've been them, with them for nine and a half years. I've supported family, I've supported

00:24:21.350 - 00:24:39.210

friends. I've been a good example in the LGBTQ community. I was voted as Volunteer of the Year, last year, which was cool. But it's not really up to their standards, because it's not what they want.

00:24:39.620 - 00:24:56.590

And then unfortunately, if I was recognized in a church community or more of a heteronormative role, then I think they would care. I actually am on the LGBTQ advisory board for the mayor. I've actually shown them

00:24:56.730 - 00:25:09.240

pictures with me in the mayor, and they're impressed but at the same time, they're not sure why I know the mayor that way. Because I don't really explain my role because then I once I explain it, and it comes all

00:25:09.270 - 00:25:28.370

these other things. But all in all, I think also they want me and I think a lot on my dad's side since he is a patriarchal or more male dominant perspective is that he just doesn't want me to be attacked or

00:25:29.470 - 00:25:47.650

ridiculed or in any way because then it does bring onto him how he sees himself if he's not able to support his own children. And so I don't want to put that on them either. And so I think they had expectations, they still

00:25:47.990 - 00:26:02.420

do, they still want me to get married and have children and create a family and also be an example to the other family members. But they also just have a very tunnel vision about how they want to see that

00:26:03.200 - 00:26:17.490

because then there's only certain blueprints or an outline of how they see it. And then so unfortunately, some of my cousins have been able to beat me ahead of time, in a way based on that perspective, but I

00:26:17.600 - 00:26:28.920

think all– all we're all expected to be a little happy but also supportive of our family members as well. And not lose touch of our culture. That's the biggest thing about my family too.

00:26:30.440 - 00:26:44.540

Yes. Okay, now we're going to kind of shift into the topic of the immigration of your parents. So when did your parents first immigrate to the US? And also, I think you mentioned the Vietnam War as

00:26:44.560 - 00:26:56.620

being like, what prompted them, but can you go more into specifics at that, too? Oh, I don't know much. They didn't tell me until I was in college.

00:26:56.720 - 00:27:10.460

But then when I became an adult, they were able to share more about where I was coming from. ‘Cause then I think when I was younger, they wanted to make sure that they have that parental and authority figure role

00:27:10.980 - 00:27:27.060

played out. It was really interesting because then I think a lot of my family and friends, or we were make the comment that my sister and my brother and I were a little deprived growing up, because we didn't

00:27:27.060 - 00:27:44.590

get as much freedom or privilege to do much outside of the purview of my parents. But I think it's also because of safety. My parents had to

00:27:45.350 - 00:28:05.380

leave Vietnam in order to find some sanctuary and become refugees. And so my dad ended up somewhere, like I said, in Cambodia or Thailand, actually had to

00:28:05.510 - 00:28:17.000

leave a lot of his siblings so that he because he was one of the youngest, because then once you become eighteen, you become part of the government because you're an adult. And then once you become an adult, the whole immigration

00:28:17.550 - 00:28:34.530

process is a lot more difficult and a lot more hurdles to go through. And so he willingly was able and going to leave his family for an unknown certainty

00:28:35.540 - 00:28:48.530

about whether or not he can get them over to the States. But this was the best example, like the best advantage that you could have. And so same with my mom. Luckily, she had her on my sister, her sister, my aunt,

00:28:49.670 - 00:29:04.820

to go through the whole process with her, and they came over in the early 80s. My mom ended up in the Midwest, my dad ended up with Oklahoma, but then they had mutual friends in Louisiana and Texas.

00:29:06.300 - 00:29:23.760

And so they convened or got together back in Galveston and my parents met for the first time and went on a date. I think it was a bad first date.

00:29:25.320 - 00:29:45.030

And dad ended up not having his wallet and then ended up my mom paying for the date. So he didn't talk to her for a while, but then they had another mutual friend and then they were having

00:29:45.090 - 00:29:57.860

a house party. And they met again and then reconnected, and then jumped over that hurdle about not a bad paying date thing and got married.

00:29:58.010 - 00:30:13.690

And then I think also with the whole immigration process, is that you really realize how much you need support or need someone to be with you while going through all of it because then it's a lot. I know my

00:30:13.690 - 00:30:30.430

dad has seen some people pass away or not survive that that transition, or the trek over here, I don't know much about my mom's side, she doesn't really share that much. But then it makes sense because then

00:30:30.430 - 00:30:48.160

they're in. See, they're in their 30s, late 20s, early 30s. And at that point, they also need to establish and make themselves a kind of footing in America.

00:30:48.810 - 00:31:01.690

And so they got married in '83 or '82. And then my brother was born in '84. And I was born in '85.

00:31:02.650 - 00:31:19.860

And then they waited five years and they got my sister and in 1990 and then from there we went, we went from there, but we're the first ones in my family side to have children. And so I think the rest of the time and uncles and aunts

00:31:20.230 - 00:31:37.410

are were following suit because then we need to establish ourselves here, outside of the understanding that probably wouldn't go back home. Do you have any like particular stories of your from like your family

00:31:37.480 - 00:31:49.910

history or like your ancestors that you were told? Ah, not much I know once I have now are the ones really when I personally went over to Vietnam,

00:31:51.450 - 00:32:08.200

because then I really got to see where my parents grew up and where they're coming from. I really do cherish that opportunity because of the fact that were family members that knew all about me. And it was

00:32:08.200 - 00:32:22.260

funny because then I was going from Thailand to Vietnam. And the airplane ticket was $75 easy and My dad told me that he told some family members, I was coming.

00:32:22.800 - 00:32:40.100

And I saw eight hands just waving in the airport. And it was really cute. And then I actually talked to them and I was like, "I don't—how did you know who I was?" And they're like, "Well, your dad's still share stories and pictures

00:32:40.100 - 00:32:54.220

of you." And I don't really get to see that side of my dad very often. My dad is pretty stoic and doesn't like emoting too much being I guess, an Asian male.

00:32:54.800 - 00:33:11.470

And so it was kind of this kind of touching that I knew, like, I didn't know that who shared all like, all this information about me. And then one sad aspect was the chain migration. I kind of understood my understanding of politics

00:33:12.330 - 00:33:29.380

because then a lot of the chain migration and sponsorship side when my dad became a citizen was that the paperwork is just like long and kind of a lot of bureaucracy. And so the family members that were coming

00:33:29.380 - 00:33:44.700

over and the 2007 and 2010 era, were waiting for like a decade. And so one family member opted out of not being put on that list.

00:33:45.110 - 00:34:01.550

And when I saw them in Vietnam, they still bring it up and like kind of have this regret that they didn't really try to opt in because they thought it was just such a long process. And it seemed like– it seemed insurmountable that they

00:34:01.550 - 00:34:13.430

weren't going to be able to do it. But then when other family members start coming over, that's when the regret really kicked in. And some of my cousins that don't get to see their cousins that they grew up with

00:34:16.090 - 00:34:30.820

are kind of upset because then they're like, "Uncle, why didn't you opt into this?". And the Uncle went out now is understanding that it's loss. And but at the same time, I mean, in another perspective, you just kind of see

00:34:32.830 - 00:34:46.450

you don't have as much foresight to do that is in the process is so long because then once you, once the United States hits their maximum, then the process happens again next year.

00:34:46.510 - 00:34:58.890

And then it goes by the same number amount and then they have to like your number 1000. And they only do the first hundred and each year they just have to keep trudging along the line and then going from there.

00:34:59.570 - 00:35:17.610

And I really got to appreciate what my dad did for his family. He stuck it out. He's always persistent. He’d be stubborn in a negative sense, if you call it that way, but he's persistent and he's helped these family members

00:35:18.940 - 00:35:31.260

and grow up. I unfortunately have to be a little bit more distant with them because then I don't want to share too much about my life with them, because then it

00:35:31.260 - 00:35:47.260

would go to my parents and especially with the whole gay aspect. But in all in all, like, it's still instilled in me to, like, be there for other people. And so that's why I've been involved in so much in the gay community, and also been

00:35:48.050 - 00:36:01.890

uh, I guess, an example of support. ‘Cause then I, I would say, I've been gotten a lot of recognition for what I've done and the volunteer work I've done. Unfortunately, I just can't share it with my parents.

00:36:02.230 - 00:36:16.290

I share it with my siblings, and they're very proud and very appreciative but kind of sucks that I can't share it with them. Yeah. So we're gonna move on to the topic of your education. So from my understanding, you

00:36:16.290 - 00:36:31.160

attended Baylor University, as you said, Pacific University, and the University of Houston. And at Baylor, you got a BS in biology with honors on the pre-med track. So what compelled you to like choose this

00:36:31.160 - 00:36:46.140

major and pursue pre-med at first? Ah, well kind of have the same idea is that like being around so many circumstances where people are just going bad, like you just want to help people and so it's hard to

00:36:46.140 - 00:37:02.670

kind of put that into one thing but also growing up with parents that had to work minimum wage jobs or just umm, for work under the table

00:37:02.670 - 00:37:18.130

kind of deal, then you, you want a job that also has some kind of stability, and longevity. And so medical was the best option, because then I always joke with my friends.

00:37:18.440 - 00:37:32.820

Like there's four choices being an Asian American, and its lawyer, doctor, engineer, and then disappointment. And so apparently, I chose number four. But I think

00:37:32.820 - 00:37:47.090

all in all, they also understand that like, your offspring should support your parents as well. And I understood that I really wanted to support that and give into that notion.

00:37:47.660 - 00:38:04.730

But then I realized throughout my undergrad program that I just wasn't very much into it. And so, yes, I was good at math and science. But I also wasn't

00:38:04.920 - 00:38:19.500

very keen on being committing myself into more years of medical school, debt, and kind of following this “cookie cutter” road maps that my parents had.

00:38:20.790 - 00:38:34.820

And then so, but the only thing also is that you can change majors, you can kind of have an epiphany and go through a different route. But I only had a four-year scholarship at Baylor and being a private

00:38:34.820 - 00:38:50.220

school and being so into much, being halfway through my program, it just made more sense to complete it. And so I completed it. Unfortunately, my parents are still like, you still have an option to go to medical school

00:38:50.220 - 00:39:05.800

latched on to. And so I did promise that I would do more schooling. But in that same promise, I said, “I wanted to take a year off,” and so I took a year off.

00:39:07.490 - 00:39:22.630

When there was an opportunity to teach in Thailand for a year. It was through the Baylor program. My parents were a little upset about it. They were not very happy that I applied to this Baylor Teach in

00:39:22.630 - 00:39:36.240

Thailand program. They tried to ask me or tried to see if they could dissuade me and unfortunately, they made me too independent.

00:39:36.730 - 00:39:51.040

So they were worried about funding, they were worried about transition. They knew how it was to like be oversea or be crossing that ocean and also be an around where

00:39:51.650 - 00:40:07.010

you didn't have support. But then I had my ticket paid for to and from Thailand for the year. I had housing, I only had to pay for utilities. And then I already did Skype interviews to land a teaching gig

00:40:07.010 - 00:40:23.130

which gave me a monthly stipend for a year and with a month paid vacation, and then there was no argument to have for them. So it's really funny because that's a funny story I tell my friends and family to where

00:40:24.530 - 00:40:41.970

my family, my parents were like, we hated that we made you so responsible. I liked education so much, and I kind of touched on doing some college administration stuff. And so I was in student government for three years,

00:40:43.160 - 00:40:57.930

boosting up my resume so that I can be ready for med school. I did a couple organizations and was an officer in some of them. But then student government was the most pivotal or most influential aspect.

00:40:58.560 - 00:41:15.030

I mean, some of the good friends also got to be a little bit more different than some other medical people. But I got to meet the Dean of Students and some of like the administration there, and I really liked it the

00:41:15.030 - 00:41:32.330

education aspect and so a friend of mine in the Honors College went to this grad program at Azusa. We talked about it. And since she was a year ahead, because I took a year off. She told me about the program,

00:41:33.220 - 00:41:47.500

what she liked about it, what she wanted to do with it. And then I really liked her perspective to someone I trusted. And since she was also a year ahead, I got to use her books and also save a little money there.

00:41:48.450 - 00:42:10.090

And then I applied to the program while I was in Thailand, moved back or flew back from Thailand in May, April, May of 2008. Spent a month in Houston and told my parents I'm leaving to go live in

00:42:10.090 - 00:42:27.050

California for two more years. So the other joke that they say is that "When you are going to come back? Are you going to come back and live in Texas?" But it was nice because then I wanted to—since I lived

00:42:27.280 - 00:42:39.700

in New Jersey, I've seen the East Coast I really wanted to see the West Coast. And also with the West Coast, it was a little bit more progressive on how they viewed sexuality and their population. Also with

00:42:39.700 - 00:42:51.230

the Asian community. There's a big Asian community in California. There also a lot of gay Asians and so like it was kind of cool to kind of check that out also, without my parents being too close or too

00:42:52.420 - 00:43:08.600

intimidating, where they might find me or see me. Went to grad school, loved it, did an internship with the Career Services Department the first year at Azusa and then moved on to a part time position at

00:43:08.630 - 00:43:22.350

Caltech. And so math and science and the STEM field has always been a foundation of where I'm coming from, but it's just relayed or presented itself in a different way.

00:43:23.030 - 00:43:38.040

And so I have been a biology biochemistry advisor for U of H, a STEM transfer advisor. And now I specifically just focus on technology freshmen students. And so I like that I've been able to meld that

00:43:39.030 - 00:43:51.380

background also with my upbringing to like help other students do what they want to do and figure out what they want to go to. And sometimes it's not the route they want, or sometimes it's the parents having

00:43:51.380 - 00:44:08.950

an influence. But luckily, I've been able to navigate that and also tell students and their parents that there really isn't a “cookie cutter”, or “one size fits all”. And so it's the kind of nice and I really like where I'm

00:44:08.950 - 00:44:22.480

coming from– from there. Yeah. So from your resume, you seem to be like very dedicated to education and like mentoring youths. Would you say there's like a reason for this?

00:44:24.720 - 00:44:47.120

Oh, I guess 'cause coming from a perspective where I think Asian Americans are successful in a way, they're seeing this that with the “model minority” like template and then with also the idea that we're

00:44:47.980 - 00:45:05.430

given the positive stereotypes of like overachieving and also this other stuff. I think it really hits on home where once some people don't fit into that mold, or the fact that we can’t always break away from the

00:45:05.500 - 00:45:24.900

ties of our parents because there's either financial, cultural, or even like psychological restraints, to really break away from that and then sometimes that's why I got into this because then I want to be somewhat of

00:45:25.060 - 00:45:40.210

an advocate a resource and an example. So that students and young adults can move forward. I, going through the whole coming out process wasn't very accepted to my parents,

00:45:40.690 - 00:45:55.450

unfortunately, and then with the whole Catholic side too, and kind of being on the linear, mathematical, logical kind of progression, so

00:45:55.520 - 00:46:10.390

A to B, B to C, so that means A to C. So, in my younger days, I was a little bit on the suicidal side. And so with my parents, not accepting the

00:46:10.430 - 00:46:29.110

whole coming-out process, and then with Catholicism saying that, “if you're gay, then you're kind of just destined for hell.” And then my understanding also was that if you commit suicide,

00:46:29.420 - 00:46:45.270

you also go to hell because then you're foregoing the most, like, most biggest gift that God can give you, which is life. And then when you once you take it in your own hands and you just don't deserve heaven.

00:46:46.600 - 00:47:00.480

Unfortunately, since gay was lumped into the same kind of perspective, I went through a dark moment in high school, in my teens, and then didn't succeed.

00:47:01.170 - 00:47:16.550

Luckily, and I think that was also a big turning point, because once you hit rock bottom, everything's up. Any other obstacle, any other complication or impediment in life doesn't

00:47:16.550 - 00:47:30.610

seem as bad as that time. When I was in my teens, because then I was so stuck in that mindset that I understood that there was no way of winning.

00:47:32.140 - 00:47:50.660

And, but luckily, going to college, and also meeting new friends and also a new perspective, I was able to actually grow from that and also understand that, just like this life, philosophy and in religion, that it's not

00:47:50.660 - 00:48:05.230

all black and white, there's this gray area that you have to kind of meet and go from there. Well, but while you're a teenager, and under your parents, like household, there's only so much gray that you can see.

00:48:05.880 - 00:48:22.690

And so, luckily, nothing happened or nothing too bad happened, where I got to grow from that. And I think that's also one of the reasons why I want to help students because I understand that it's a lot to navigate

00:48:23.340 - 00:48:41.420

and understand, because society has certain roles or ideas or perceptions about you and how you want to be or present. And sometimes it's good to have another person or perspective to be

00:48:41.480 - 00:48:57.220

presented so that you can kind of break away with it without judgment. Because then, that's the hard part too, because then if students decide to change their major or tell me that this is not what they want to do, then I listened but I also need to tell

00:48:57.220 - 00:49:16.150

them that you have to look at what other options you have. And so I, one of my favorite stories for advising is that I had an Asian, a Vietnamese immigrant, 60-year-old mother, studying biochemistry while I was advising.

00:49:16.860 - 00:49:30.390

And she was there before I started. But when she met me, she always requested me. And she was like, Hey, I could speak English, but it's easier if I could meet with you.

00:49:31.010 - 00:49:46.930

And I just wanted to talk about my degree plan. I also want to tell you that I'm doing this so that I can prove to my daughter that I can do it, being an immigrant, being having language

00:49:46.970 - 00:50:03.600

barriers, having the age barrier, and, and everything and, so she actually graduated and she gave me a hug while, while she left and like I told her daughter to I'm like, "If your mom can do it, you can do it." And

00:50:03.600 - 00:50:18.300

her mom really didn't want to do anything else with a biochemistry degree except for the fact that she can do it. And I really like that because then I mean, I don't know if she really wanted to go into the work

00:50:18.300 - 00:50:34.990

field anymore, because then she's already past that age, and everything but she also wanted you to make sure that she can prove it to herself and to prove to her daughter, because then her daughter had every advantage more so than she did in order to do better.

00:50:35.160 - 00:50:48.460

And then I also see that with my family, too. I think my parents don't have as many things on their resume as I do. One because they're humble and two,

00:50:48.460 - 00:51:04.830

because they, they don't need that validation because they already are good, intellectual and committed people that I became who I was.

00:51:07.940 - 00:51:25.210

Yeah, and did your parents or any other of your family members like your siblings know what you're going through? My siblings did. My brother was the first one I came out to in my generation. And we had a good

00:51:25.210 - 00:51:39.810

conversation because then it was kind of more of a logic-based argument, because then he was a little weirded out by it first because then since we're a year apart, we live in a— we, we shared a room together.

00:51:40.900 - 00:51:54.880

We never had our own individual room because our sister had her own room since she was female, and she needed her own privacy. And so my brother was a little freaked out, but my brother had some time to

00:51:54.950 - 00:52:12.190

think about it. And then asked me eventually he was like, "How do you not like girls?" And I said, "How do you not like boys?" He's like, "I don't." And I'm like, "I don't," and then we finished. So that was really cool.

00:52:12.190 - 00:52:27.550

I really like that. My sister, I came out a little later, but another fun kind of thing that came out of that was that even though we're five years apart, we kind of liked boys around the same time. So we went

00:52:27.550 - 00:52:42.350

through a lot of life stages and chapters and moments together. Even there was a little bit of an age difference. It was not an experience difference. And so some of the cousins were fine.

00:52:42.980 - 00:52:57.600

But all the cousins and my siblings included, understand that the older generation is just, they are. And so an analogy I always use with my family is that with especially talking

00:52:57.600 - 00:53:11.480

to Western or more of the Western, yeah, more Western folks is that like, my parents’ generation, aunts and uncles are kind of similar to a lot of white

00:53:11.880 - 00:53:27.190

folks’ grandparents generation, a, they are kind of in this different timeline and era that they just don't always understand or can grasp on the whole progressive perspective on how that works.

00:53:27.760 - 00:53:42.390

And so it's kind of interesting because I think some uncles and aunts or pretty accepting; but unfortunately, it really doesn't matter whether or not my uncles and aunts are accepting because it really

00:53:42.390 - 00:53:58.720

matters to me whether my parents are accepting is then in that same interdependence and collective view of Asian families is that like, “why are you not in med school when your cousin went to dental school or

00:53:58.720 - 00:54:16.960

your cousin is now a lawyer?” So, it always become these family dynamics that aren't really meant to pit each other against us or pit us against each other. But it's also kind of this competitive game where

00:54:18.100 - 00:54:34.750

who's better. And unfortunately, the gay card is always used as a detriment than actually a positive. And I think, luckily, knowing my cousins and I all understand that 'cause we grow, grew up and was born here.

00:54:35.190 - 00:54:51.120

But the cousins from Vietnam that came over here, we have a little bit of divide, because then I can't share too much with them and be too close, unfortunately. And it's kind of interesting dynamics, but it's also

00:54:51.620 - 00:55:08.680

kind of just how Asian perspectives work. And I also tell people where the dynamic is you don't tell your parents everything. Yes, you want them to be your friends, but in Asian families, it also is even more so that you

00:55:08.680 - 00:55:24.990

still have this power divide, where you want to respect them. And you– you want respect from them. But you can only get respect if you treat them to the

00:55:24.990 - 00:55:40.030

standards that their culture and their background and upbringing was, because then me being friendly to them or being too friendly to them is already a disrespectful act and unfortunately not an honorable one.

00:55:41.170 - 00:55:57.380

And so sometimes it's kind of sad that I have to withhold some of my, I guess accolades or accomplishments, but it's also because I don't want anyone else in the family or in their social circles to use that against them

00:55:58.060 - 00:56:16.300

because of luck. Yeah. So that I also see that you got a BS from University of Houston for health and you also are currently

00:56:16.300 - 00:56:33.220

seeking a degree in psychology. Yes. Very impressive, but is there a, like particular reason that you were seeking or pursued both degrees? So I thought about doing another Master's, or PhD, I actually told my parents I would do

00:56:33.310 - 00:56:46.660

a PhD because then when I graduate with my master's, my parents were very much Asian stereotypes. So they said, Why don't we get a PhD so you can be some kind of doctor, very passive aggressive, and very kind

00:56:46.660 - 00:57:01.680

of expected. But the nice thing about working for higher education sometimes is that there are some perks and so they give you a scholarship at UH

00:57:01.680 - 00:57:18.170

for $1,500 or $2,000, and it covers about two classes a semester. And so, being a proponent or liaison of education, I thought it would be best

00:57:18.510 - 00:57:32.440

to also prove to students that, yes, I understand that if you have to work and go to school, then but you still have to commit and do well, because then life doesn't get any easier.

00:57:33.680 - 00:57:42.580

It's all about challenges. And once you overcome some of those challenges, you can do better. And so I looked into some other programs, and

00:57:44.010 - 00:57:58.750

I saw this health degree, it was great because a majority of it was online. It helped with working full time and also with some of my volunteer work, it was good to know how to integrate into my schedule and also work

00:57:58.960 - 00:58:12.510

out and also be a better example for students on how that goal-oriented or task management works.

00:58:12.640 - 00:58:23.980

And so it was kind of nice and I took advantage of that scholarship that they provide for U of H. Not everyone takes advantage of it. So it was kind of it, it's an opportunity.

00:58:25.940 - 00:58:40.260

I looked at master’s programs, and some master programs required a GRE score, my GRE scores were expired. So, I just looked at bachelor's degrees, and then I found this health degree, I really liked it.

00:58:41.080 - 00:58:53.550

I thought about doing the Master's in Public Health, four plus one option, decided not to do it because then there's just a lot going on in life personally. But then part of

00:58:53.550 - 00:59:07.860

the degree plan was also an internship. So it actually was a great opportunity where I work with a nonprofit organization and work with down syndrome kids. So my nephew, on my, my brother's son

00:59:08.510 - 00:59:26.930

is actually autistic on the spectrum and is epileptic and so as much as I like medicine or at least being cognizant of health issues, it kind of health and social matters.

00:59:27.070 - 00:59:44.320

And so this down syndrome, nonprofit GiGi's Playhouse was actually a great opportunity to really be more open and aware of what children go through.

00:59:44.510 - 00:59:55.350

Most children is kind of cool. Another thing about education that I liked, on my end was that I taught kindergarteners in Thailand. And so I liked

00:59:55.420 - 01:00:09.980

kindergarteners, I like higher education with college students is because there is this kind of yearning to learn. And so when students are more apt on what they want to learn or learn about

01:00:10.200 - 01:00:24.490

themselves or learn about certain subject matters, it kind of brings a lot out of them, on who they are and stuff It's really cool. And I now have a counseling degree from a APU.

01:00:25.570 - 01:00:43.850

But then I know things have changed or the idea or perception about mental health and illness is very much more changing and ever evolving with our community. So I decided to get this psychology degree because then

01:00:45.070 - 01:00:58.930

when I finished my health degree, I was only 10 classes away from finishing psychology. So why not, especially since I have this opportunity with the scholarship, I still will probably get another degree

01:01:00.830 - 01:01:14.440

after the psychology one 'cause I'm a glutton for punishment apparently. But it's also—I kinda hate to say it, and I kinda hate that this kind of an

01:01:14.440 - 01:01:29.730

ideology of our society nowadays. Is that like with social media and with some of the, like, online platforms that we have. “Oh, the notion is, you know, it sort of it

01:01:29.730 - 01:01:43.080

didn't happen because then people can just say whatever they want,” or kind of claim whatever instance or find a superiority or accomplishment they want. But all in all, it really does still

01:01:45.040 - 01:02:00.350

fall into proof. And so I think having multiple degrees and also kind of clout is where I can reach out to my students better. I know a lot

01:02:00.980 - 01:02:21.620

of—another influence of why I got additional degrees is because being Asian we age kind of well. There is a saying that Asian don't raisin so started out after my grad program in 2010.

01:02:23.490 - 01:02:37.350

I was in my mid 20s. And students that interacted with were still a little bit apprehensive of really getting my advice or information as they thought I was, quote

01:02:38.890 - 01:02:53.370

unquote, too young or not qualified. And so I thought I think as a society we're very visual. We are so very quick on

01:02:54.800 - 01:03:14.410

sizing up our community or interactions with folks. And so unfortunately it does kind of come down to to accolades and also things on paper.

01:03:15.050 - 01:03:30.370

And so I do have my degrees on my wall at work and students kind of see like change a little bit of their demeanor when they come see me. And then at first they are like, "You look like a student." I'm like, "Thanks, but

01:03:30.740 - 01:03:47.070

I'm still an advisor." And so that has been some of the topics and issues also when I was in my grad program about Asian American college administrators, because there is an ageism aspect to it too.

01:03:48.110 - 01:03:59.280

And I am in my early 30s, and I still feel like students still see me as a student, which is nice because there is that familiarity with looking like a peer.

01:03:59.650 - 01:04:16.350

But then there's also that wall or obstacle that they can’t always take you to seriously if they think you are the same level or playing on that.

01:04:17.120 - 01:04:31.060

And so it's kind of interesting. So I had to exemplify myself better. And then, that's why I get these additional degrees. And also, since the university encourages it with this

01:04:31.060 - 01:04:46.810

scholarship, then why not take advantage. And so I think that helps. And that also is a good outlet for myself. Because then that was the same with the LGBTQ

01:04:46.810 - 01:05:01.600

community is then my background story, my family background and everything else that came of it. It's not uncommon to a lot of gay folks or gay male Asians that I've met.

01:05:02.340 - 01:05:15.410

But sometimes it's good just to have an example to be out there. So that so they can, they can improve or be better, because then I know younger generations are still having to fight that

01:05:15.410 - 01:05:33.140

kind of fight and also seeing where they are in their identity, because then there are a lot of intersectionality and multiple complexities about what you call your personhood, and kind of gaining

01:05:33.140 - 01:05:50.210

traction from there and the foundation. Sorry, that was so long winded. But with like this long history of education and as you continue to pursue degrees, would you say

01:05:50.210 - 01:06:06.600

you learned more things about yourself through this process? I would say so. But I would also say, I'm, like we see with COVID-19 that like everyone that

01:06:06.720 - 01:06:24.540

watches a YouTube video or sees an article becomes somewhat of a semi-expert, and that's unfortunate. And I think also even my friends that have a higher postgraduate degree, you kind of get into

01:06:24.540 - 01:06:42.080

this rut that if you knew so much, then things change. And information is always going to adapt and evolve the field of work you're in. And so it makes sense to kind of go into it.

01:06:43.090 - 01:06:53.210

I had a friend of mine that's really close to me, that took a class with me in my health degree. And he was a pharmacy technician. And we took a test

01:06:53.210 - 01:07:12.750

together because of the online class, and he was like the answer C because new research has says, this product is more advantageous to data and I was like, well, I get where you're coming from.

01:07:12.800 - 01:07:23.560

I've read that article. I know the information, but we're being tested on the book. And the book and research and the peer reviewed stuff says the answer is B.

01:07:24.800 - 01:07:39.290

And we went through this argument and then it was kind of fun and kind of interesting to kind of calm like, go into the argument because this is his first degree while this is my third. And– and he was like what the answer is C, I'm like,

01:07:39.440 - 01:07:50.820

"Yes, you can answer C and then argue with the professor and then see where it goes from there. But I'm gonna tell you the answer is B. And the B answer will give you grades automatically or points automatically."

01:07:51.780 - 01:08:08.460

Unfortunately, we also have to talk about the aspects and progression of education, as it is a while to be published, to be reviewed, to actually disseminate the information out to be on, on

01:08:08.510 - 01:08:21.590

par with how society works, but at the same time, we don't want information that works with a smaller community or population has an interest to test it out to be the end all be all

01:08:24.340 - 01:08:32.640

answer for everything else either because then that's the problem of why research works the way it does. I really like that aspect. And I've grown

01:08:32.640 - 01:08:52.140

and still continue to also see more relevant studies and case studies about certain situations, but I know it evolves because then even friends, PhD in psychology, some of their stuff now is going to be outdated

01:08:52.140 - 01:09:08.800

versus the stuff that we students are learning now. And then, I think it's good to kind of understand perspectives on the student side of what they're going through. I went through my health degree during hurricane Harvey,

01:09:09.240 - 01:09:19.800

I'm going through my psychology degree during COVID-19. Though there is a certain level or development through evolution of my

01:09:19.900 - 01:09:38.340

empathy as well with how it interacts with my students, but I also understand that society also gets competitive. Because then with my pre-med kids, I advise, let's say a school takes 20% of their

01:09:38.460 - 01:09:51.810

application pool. And this year is the high number or record number that have ever accepted for med school, which is great. But then 20% of 10 years ago, which was 100 applicants

01:09:52.740 - 01:10:12.740

is 20 students, but 1000 applicants now in 2020 20% is a 200. So yes, you have 180 numerical value of students, but you also, but

01:10:13.390 - 01:10:26.170

it looking only from the positive lens of 20% then you can come you kind of see hope. But then you also don't understand the fact that 80 rejected students is now 800.

01:10:27.330 - 01:10:39.470

And so it becomes an interesting conversation to have, because then I also know that a lot of my students have parents that went through some of the same stuff that they did.

01:10:39.920 - 01:10:53.840

But the parents also getting the perspective may not always match what current times are showing. Okay, so now we're gonna shift into questions more about your career. Um, you mentioned that you

01:10:54.200 - 01:11:05.660

had a brief stint as an English teacher in Thailand. So can you go more into specifics about how that experience was like? Oh, I loved it. It was great.

01:11:06.340 - 01:11:22.290

I've never been overseas, which was kind of nice. A friend of mine in the Honors College, Chelsea was applying for the same program. And so she told me about the opportunity. Then I applied for it, checked it out really cool.

01:11:24.490 - 01:11:38.260

Luckily you didn't need to know Thai to actually get into the program. they'll teach you some Thai and the basics to get by. But the biggest thing is that they want to make sure that you had a bachelor's degree from an accredited institution and that you

01:11:38.260 - 01:11:52.670

are a strong student. And they'll teach you all the teaching stuff after that. So there was 18, 18 of us, I believe, I knew about 60% of them, which was kind of cool.

01:11:53.460 - 01:12:09.710

So it became kind of like this extended study abroad, which I didn't get to do while studying biology. And, but at the same time, it was more of an upgraded study abroad because you didn't have a professor or kind of this

01:12:09.710 - 01:12:21.520

chaperone aspect to it. You got to choose between two schools. You either got to choose the school with the palace and then teach on

01:12:21.520 - 01:12:37.600

the world grounds; or you you got to choose a private school that had a religious background or Christian background, and work with them. And so I went with the private school route because then that's what I understood or knew

01:12:37.600 - 01:12:51.080

better. And they also paid a little bit more. The reason why the Royal grounds in the top– top, pay less is because

01:12:51.340 - 01:13:05.280

teaching there was actually some of the perks and privilege. You didn't need to be compensated for it. Some friends went to the Royal grounds, some friends went to the private school; and then so is really

01:13:05.280 - 01:13:21.240

cool. And I taught kindergarteners at first and so I mean, I–I didn't go much into detail earlier, but I taught kindergarteners at first, I taught for three to four months or half a semester or

01:13:21.680 - 01:13:37.400

half a year, full semester and got fired. So what happened was when I interviewed, I interviewed, I did phone interviews, Skype was still not as much of a strong platform as it is

01:13:37.400 - 01:13:53.580

now. And video conferencing wasn't what we're doing, like we are today. But we did a lot of phone interviews. I was selected to do kindergarteners. Because

01:13:53.580 - 01:14:09.270

they really liked my background in biology. They liked that I had a little bit of an Asian background but also sounded very American. And since I was using English, this is what they wanted.

01:14:10.040 - 01:14:27.840

And when I showed up, apparently, I was too Asian. So wasn't very fond of me. Other teachers were fine. My Thai counterpart that worked with me and translated,

01:14:29.620 - 01:14:44.090

was great and really appreciated me. But the principal really had this certain stigma or perception that she wanted with an English teacher. She thought that's what parents wanted.

01:14:44.250 - 01:15:00.750

They want this American Caucasian person to kind of emulate or present themselves with their English teaching skills. And so eventually, the principal just found in every which

01:15:00.830 - 01:15:15.670

way, any reason to actually fire me. And so I got fired. But since I was going through the beta program, they were also able to find me a replacement, another

01:15:16.750 - 01:15:29.940

kindergartener gig. With another school that was across town, so I'll be away from other Baylor friends. But luckily, I was actually doing it, tutoring

01:15:31.130 - 01:15:46.070

an after-school program with primary school kids and at the second grade level, and the primary school principal, found out, heard what happened and was like, "I heard what happened in kindergarten.

01:15:47.470 - 01:15:58.940

I don't care. My second graders like you. If you want to stay at this school, I have a fourth, fifth and sixth grade position open if you want to use them. It's not your age group.

01:15:59.710 - 01:16:14.310

It's not what you signed up for, but you can stay in the same school or Baylor counterpart, and go from there." And so I tested out the other school for kindergarten.

01:16:16.610 - 01:16:33.480

It was fine, but it, it's just kind of weird not having my peers or the people that came over with at the same time. But I got to check out fourth, fifth and sixth grade. During lunch I got to see my Baylor counterparts is, and so it became a fit.

01:16:34.580 - 01:16:50.740

I really liked it, I helped them out. And then also, some holidays and some weekend program. The other Baylor folks got to share or invite others to come over and volunteer and participate.

01:16:50.790 - 01:16:59.630

So I still got to go in the Royal grounds and got to do stuff with them. And they got to do vice versa. It was really cool.

01:16:59.630 - 01:17:13.260

But it was also a good lesson on cultural or internal discrimination. As other friends that came through the Baylor program, there was

01:17:13.260 - 01:17:31.910

one other Asian girl who's Korean and there's another Asian female, and she was half Filipino. And so it was interesting because in my Baylor counterparts, I really got to see or understand some of the cultural

01:17:31.910 - 01:17:49.160

differences and also, kind of the, I guess, just the discrimination that that we had to deal with. Even though I was very much American, I was still

01:17:49.490 - 01:18:00.360

seen as too Asian to teach English. And that was a good lesson and good experience to go from and also understand because then that's how my parents are a little

01:18:00.360 - 01:18:13.060

bit. And other family members and other family units that I've interacted with. I was just like, okay, the only sad part is that when I taught my fourth, fifth and sixth graders is that

01:18:13.110 - 01:18:29.900

sometimes, I ran into my kindergarteners during recess, and one or my kindergarteners were like, "You don't love us anymore, you left." You know, I'm like, "I can't explain, hey, adults feel about their teachers being not, not

01:18:30.550 - 01:18:42.580

American enough to teach English." So I had to, I had to go, go from there but at the same time I learned a lot. And I was glad that I was over

01:18:42.900 - 01:19:00.930

there, because I learned cultural differences and also kind of the universal aspect that body language and personality really, for, like convey itself more than any other spoken language. So, one of my Baylor

01:19:00.930 - 01:19:16.830

friends and former roommate lived in China. And so I went to Beijing and visited him for a week. And it was really funny because he's caucasian, brunette, blue eyes, and...

01:19:16.830 - 01:19:30.680

but speaks fluent Mandarin. And so when we take a cab or whatever, there's just like, "Nihao.” That that that. I'm like, “I don't know, talk to the white guy.” And then he goes off in their tangent and

01:19:30.680 - 01:19:43.850

conversation. And he had a learning moment to or it was really funny because I'm tired of having the same questions. They always ask, "Why does he not speak Chinese?

01:19:43.990 - 01:19:55.830

Why do you speak Chinese? What, what, what is he if he isn't?" And then there was another fourth question. And then I said, "Well, I'm a Vietnamese American." Because in where I grew

01:19:55.830 - 01:20:08.180

up, those are the questions I got. "Where are you from? Where are you from, from or what nationality?" or "Where's your parents from?" And then so you kind of had this, like scripts that you always had to go by.

01:20:08.810 - 01:20:20.850

But he actually learned a little bit from it too, which was kind of fun. And it was kind of where we bonded as friends even closer and so I'm still friends with him. To this day, I appreciate him for that.

01:20:20.870 - 01:20:35.580

But it's just so funny because he never had to really understand that since he was a Caucasian male living in China, through his high school and high school years and then coming over to the States. But then when I

01:20:35.580 - 01:20:52.830

came over, he actually had a different experience when that came over. So um, on your resume you also mentioned being an academic advisor for multiple years at the University of Houston.

01:20:53.700 - 01:21:10.650

So how has this position kind of shaped your view of academia, academia? I think it's always changing because then I mean, I, I went to two private schools with Baylor and

01:21:11.010 - 01:21:25.950

Azusa Pacific. And then another reason why I got my degree in health with U of H, because I needed to see the public perspective, public school institution, it's going to have different hurdles and also

01:21:25.950 - 01:21:40.370

requirements because of the fact that like it's state mandate. And so I actually had to take some basic courses that I hadn't like I technically had credit at Baylor, but didn't because of the fact that with a

01:21:40.370 - 01:21:53.830

private institution, I got to learn more about the nuances between private institutions and public institutions. And so that really solidified and also strengthened me as an advisor in students.

01:21:54.720 - 01:22:07.920

Like I said, with the whole aspect of like, it sort of didn't happen, like not to have a degree in a public institution, you can only speak so much of it, even though you might have a Master's. And so I got to understand the

01:22:07.920 - 01:22:22.730

perspective where students were coming from because then, if you're a chemistry major, why do you have to take so much history and then or government classes or an extra creative art until I understood the actual foundation of why the educational program and

01:22:23.190 - 01:22:35.420

structure of a undergraduate degree work. And so I could explain it better. Because then, in our biology program, we actually go up to calc two and even calc

01:22:35.520 - 01:22:50.410

three, if you want to go that far. And some students are like med schools don't require this much math. And then I explained to them that it's not because you're going to be doing complicated computations

01:22:52.240 - 01:23:03.390

throughout your whole career. Part of the aspect is you can get the same answer. You can always get the same answer on the same question.

01:23:03.970 - 01:23:22.380

But how do you get to that answer is going to be different on how you deal with it? Because then, and that's why we–we want to push or going to a structural perspective about why we put so much math. So if you've ever watched the old TV

01:23:22.380 - 01:23:41.360

show, “House”, or any other kind of medical drama, there is always these symptoms that could be x, y, and z. So like fever, cough, and da-da-de-duh like, even with COVID-19, like the flu symptoms could be COVID, or it could

01:23:41.360 - 01:23:52.790

not be COVID. And so we want to distinguish and make sure we can touch all the other factors and outliers to make sure that we don't get the wrong diagnosis.

01:23:53.330 - 01:24:03.020

And so that's why we put so much math because then you can still always get the same answer. Sometimes you might have to go a different route. And if you go and give the wrong

01:24:03.020 - 01:24:17.870

answer that could cause complication. And so, I really liked advising because I thought about becoming a professor, I've taught a couple of freshmen in introductory

01:24:17.960 - 01:24:34.750

courses. And it's fine, it pays a little bit better. But it there's also a lot more expectations on lesson plans structure and also you still connect with students, but some students also get lost in the cracks.

01:24:35.400 - 01:24:51.210

But as an academic advisor, you do more than just talk about academics. You talk about family, you talk about personal endeavors and goals and convictions

01:24:51.570 - 01:25:05.180

and why people want to go the way they would do or also try to tell students how to get out of their mindset. So there was a student I even had, that was studying biotechnology and want to become a biomedical engineer.

01:25:05.880 - 01:25:25.980

And so I was like, "what's your end goal?" And he said, "I want to build medical prosthetics for patients that might have lost their limbs or don't or grew up with a physical deformity, and my friends and my family don't know what biotechnology is as a

01:25:25.980 - 01:25:41.360

major, but that's my goal." I'm like, "Well, the goal is like them that major will get you to that goal. And so do worry about your family and friends worrying what you're studying or what you actually want to become happy yet."

01:25:42.730 - 01:25:56.870

And so it's been good. I think I've gotten a lot of perspective and growth. Um, it's also kind of fun to talk to parents. There's some FERPA Family Education rights, protective act

01:25:57.180 - 01:26:12.490

issues, but once they're signed off on it, or when the student gives permission. It's also kind of cool to teach some parents about education process, especially like, like, especially being in Houston.

01:26:13.660 - 01:26:29.240

I think I wouldn't have stayed in my position or in this, this category of position for too long if it wasn't for Houston, because Houston in itself

01:26:29.270 - 01:26:42.370

has such a diverse community. And so I've seen a lot of family members that are immigrants, or don't have a higher education degree or background, but still want to learn about the prospect and aspect

01:26:42.370 - 01:26:52.890

because then they're investing a lot of money. And they need to know how it goes. And so hopefully explaining it to them in a way that they can understand is also another good aspect too.

01:26:53.920 - 01:27:08.030

Because then I think if I was just more methodical and just looking at, you need X amount of hours, and then this amount of GPA and then was so calculated and it wouldn't have worked out because then

01:27:08.030 - 01:27:24.760

sometimes explain to parents, routes and how society works or how academia is viewed is also a good opportunity and experience to have with the family aspect because it's just not always one person going to school.

01:27:24.810 - 01:27:35.490

It's a family members that are wanting to support and also wanting to make sure that they get their money's worth but at the same time also get the education for it.

01:27:36.650 - 01:27:49.650

So you also mentioned that you are on Mayor Sylvester Turner's LGBTQ Advisory Board. How is that experience? Like what do you do specifically?

01:27:50.810 - 01:28:09.680

So there's 49 members and it was initiated after 20- 2011, 2010…? No, 2015, 2014 because it was right

01:28:09.680 - 01:28:27.550

after Pulse. Pulse is a gay club in Orlando, Florida. It was attacked by someone with an automatic rifle, shot down 49 people. And so that's why we created the organization or the board.

01:28:28.100 - 01:28:40.020

And so Houston wants to represent, show solidarity because then could have happened to anyone. And the one piece that really

01:28:40.070 - 01:29:00.850

took it home to me was that Pulse happened midnight, June 12. And my birthday is actually June 11. And so if it happened in Houston, if we were rolling over passed midnight into the next day, at one of the

01:29:00.990 - 01:29:18.820

Montrose or Houston gay bars, and it would have been probably my friends and myself being involved in that kind of situation if it wasn't in Orlando, and it was in Houston. So it, with my preference in student

01:29:18.820 - 01:29:37.900

government and also now in higher education administration, I know that they have really means a lot because then your voice needs to be heard. You might not always think your voice is serious

01:29:38.840 - 01:29:55.110

enough or influential enough, but it can be for a certain population and it makes the most sense. And more and more while I get involved with the LGBTQIA community here in

01:29:55.110 - 01:30:10.550

Houston, we have a strong Asian population. And we actually have a good number of those that identify as LGBTQ IA, but involvement and representation are not there.

01:30:11.870 - 01:30:26.600

And so I got approached to join and apply and so after my work with Pride, and Bunnies on the Bayou, which is another nonprofit. And so I thought it'd be a great opportunity.

01:30:27.430 - 01:30:40.060

And so now I'm a co-chair for the Communications Committee. And we want to work more on visibility, and also highlighting different community members with have all different backgrounds.

01:30:40.700 - 01:30:57.230

And so I think it's great. It's cool that we kind of have this political figure that will listen and also have our lending ear but we also go on topics outside of LGBTQ also,

01:30:58.850 - 01:31:17.160

if we talk about homelessness, 40% of homeless youth is LGBTQ, but doesn't mean that we can't not overlook the homeless population and see what issues they have. And so there's

01:31:17.510 - 01:31:35.700

hate crimes, based on race, in fact, and sexuality might be a factor. But you also have to talk about that too. And so it's a cool group of 49 or less right now, folks, because we've got some people rolled off from their terms,

01:31:36.240 - 01:31:52.130

because each position is about two-year term, and then we will replace or add more people later. But right now with COVID, we had to take a break, but it's kind of cool, and we're working on a lot of issues.

01:31:53.430 - 01:32:10.470

There is a push for more mandatory training for all Houston personnel about LGBTQ and sexuality awareness. And then we're also working on

01:32:11.760 - 01:32:28.640

policies and procedures to hopefully be more open with COVID-19. They're looking for blood donations, but there is an old policy based on the American Medical Association.

01:32:29.900 - 01:32:48.760

And if you're gay that they won't take, 'cause that was something initiated in the 60s because then AIDS was a big pandemic for the LGBT community. And they wouldn't take a blood because they thought I might have AIDS.

01:32:50.480 - 01:33:04.240

And to this day, they still won't, and they haven't really adjusted the policy. They adjusted a little bit but you have to be celibate for a year or have no sexual activity for a year.

01:33:04.600 - 01:33:25.560

They lessened that a bit for COVID and has to be like three months. But if straight people don't have the same parameters, and there really isn't much equity or some substantial argument why we should hold that hold true to those

01:33:25.560 - 01:33:42.670

policies because you answer one or two, whether or not you have had physical interactions with someone's gender. So you are a volunteer for various LGBTQ nonprofit organizations such as Bunnies on Bayou,

01:33:44.580 - 01:34:01.470

LGBT Resource Center and Pride Houston. So what have you taken away from being a volunteer at these organizations? Ah, like I said, visibility is big. I also think it's pushing yourself outside your own

01:34:01.470 - 01:34:16.930

comfort zone, because then I might be only one letter within that whole LGBTQ spectrum rainbow. But there is a lot more things that you can learn from a forefront.

01:34:18.330 - 01:34:39.750

Last year, while volunteering for pride, they do a fashion runway show each year to help fundraise money, and also– also highlight some of our designers and companies or small businesses that work with

01:34:39.860 - 01:34:53.130

the LGBTQ community. And last year, I got to wear a wedding dress. It was the first time ever, it's probably the only time ever but it was fun.

01:34:53.190 - 01:35:05.880

It was cool. It was interesting. It was definitely something out of my comfort zone. But at the same time, it was also for a good cause. But then also gave a good perspective on

01:35:05.880 - 01:35:23.330

like, what's expected out of males like I don't see myself less as a male or more as a male because of the fact that I wore a dress but I was also a support our community because then I think that also with people in the

01:35:23.330 - 01:35:43.090

LGBTQ community also coming from another underrepresented group or community, you kind of understand that there isn't so much this box that you can put yourself into too much because then other Vietnamese Americans, even

01:35:43.090 - 01:35:57.650

my older brother and my younger sister, we don't always have to follow the same guidelines to be more or less Asian or more or less who we are and as a community member, so it's really cool.

01:35:58.090 - 01:36:14.560

I got to do that. I've gotten to meet many people throughout that because of those opportunities because then I think people also appreciate when you put yourself outside your box and

01:36:14.560 - 01:36:31.560

also are not too judgmental because I think that's the same with some of my friends that were at Baylor with me live in Thailand got to understand more Asian culture and Asian food. And the same with friends here in Houston when we go to Chinatown or

01:36:31.640 - 01:36:47.820

Bellaire, and they get to try out different cuisine also celebrate different events and celebrations so and also on the other end for me like where I basically Italian Fest, Greek Fest, and kind of seek more culture

01:36:47.820 - 01:37:00.120

and understand their perspective as well. Do any one of these organizations stand out to you in particular? I really like Bunnies on the Bayou. I've been with them for three years.

01:37:02.040 - 01:37:19.450

They are a nonprofit that started out with a group of friends celebrating Easter and during Easter, they—it was already 41 years

01:37:19.450 - 01:37:37.950

ago, and so, during Easter is a big religious holiday. And so a lot of people that were rejected from their families because of the religious perspective, still wanted to celebrate Easter and also hang out with each

01:37:38.780 - 01:37:54.000

other. They started hanging out each Easter because they knew they couldn't be with their families. Then they eventually evolved and started raising money for charities and organizations

01:37:55.800 - 01:38:09.760

within the community. And it grew from there and this organization has donated over a million dollars. Since conception or more. And to this day, they

01:38:09.760 - 01:38:22.570

still really don't use a lot of the money they raise to towards themselves, like everyone is all volunteer base. None of the members get paid.

01:38:23.790 - 01:38:38.460

We don't even have really a standstill office. And it's it's a great organization with a lot of people that want to just like, contribute to the community. And it's kind of fun because then Pride is fun.

01:38:38.710 - 01:38:55.490

I really like Pride. Pride have been with for a while too. But Pride is pretty standard for all communities and without the United States with throughout the United States. But Bunnies is very specific with Houston and very specific

01:38:55.490 - 01:39:08.290

with Easter, because then not many other gay communities or LGBTQ communities do a lot of big Easter events like we do for Bunnies on the Bayou.

01:39:08.290 - 01:39:21.230

Okay, so we're going to kind of like additional topics and kind of like identity. So how supportive would you say your family is? How important was this like support for you?

01:39:23.210 - 01:39:34.000

Overall, my family's pretty supportive. My brother and sister are the most supportive. My parents, there is a caveat with the whole LGBT thing.

01:39:35.770 - 01:39:53.760

But I understand, it makes sense. But it's also disheartening or discouraging and so it's fine but at the same token, I can't be too upset about

01:39:53.790 - 01:40:11.670

it because then I also know what sacrifice and I guess hurdles they had to go through and I can't be too upset about it. All in all, I could just come out again, all we get disowned

01:40:13.760 - 01:40:29.100

and are disregarded as a family member. But with Asian culture and filial piety is a little bit hard, hard line to toe because in the actual event of they get

01:40:29.170 - 01:40:43.750

older and need support, I want to be there for them. But if they don't take my support and where am I, as a as a son or as–as an offspring, and so

01:40:44.910 - 01:41:04.840

that's, that's kind of the choice I have to make and then I get it. No matter what, I know they were supportive growing up, I didn't feel like I was ever without even though we were

01:41:08.150 - 01:41:22.340

labeled and considered low socioeconomic. I never grew up that way or felt that way. Some people say like I said that I was surprised as a child, but I felt like most of my childhood still pretty positive.

01:41:24.120 - 01:41:41.320

And then so and the potential points that they get older or need assistance, then I want to be there for them. I could probably give money to my siblings in circuitously give it, they'll give it to them and support.

01:41:42.040 - 01:41:51.000

But I think that's more hassle than it's worth. And so, at this point, I'm okay with where we're at. I just, I know

01:41:51.190 - 01:42:11.230

that all in all, it's because they love me and they want to support me. It's just, they just don't really support the lifestyle that I have or identify with. Yep, so you mentioned in your bio, that you value the idea of

01:42:11.270 - 01:42:28.050

self-discovery through education. Can you elaborate some more about like this idea? So I think I think with the Socratic method of like an unexamined life is not worth living is that

01:42:29.800 - 01:42:46.820

sometimes you need guidance and also a mentor sometimes with learning how or how life works. Oh, learning about neuropsychology or even having that

01:42:46.820 - 01:43:03.370

internship with down syndrome students, or kids and adults. And also learning health disparities about our system really makes you more aware about global and national and local issues.

01:43:04.340 - 01:43:19.540

Because then, in my health class, I learned about health disparities about Asian communities because, let's say X Asian population gets more heart disease than that. Another, but

01:43:21.110 - 01:43:39.250

the C, the X Asian community is all Asian community. So Southeast Asian, Russian like that really comes as blanket conversation or statistic that doesn't really focus on every nationality.

01:43:39.850 - 01:43:51.580

So that's something to keep aware of and also kind of need to break down because then Indian folks might not have the same health issues as a Cambodian folks.

01:43:52.860 - 01:44:10.690

And then having historical context about certain things also is where we need to, to grow and learn. And then like abnormal psychology is about like bipolar issues and like psychological issues that back in the day bipolar was

01:44:10.730 - 01:44:25.830

more of a negative characteristic or connotation, but it's actually just a medical issue that you would need to be aware of and not demonize, and while working with others, and also working with their friends and whatnot, because then

01:44:27.370 - 01:44:40.300

having so much of a negative stigma doesn't help people be more open about it, because one of my close friends from Baylor is actually bipolar and came out a while

01:44:40.300 - 01:44:58.130

ago, and then I was able to be a little bit more receptive about his medical condition. So, I heard that you sleep around midnight and wake up around like 6:15 am. And so how did the

01:44:58.240 - 01:45:17.410

schedule like come to be and have you ever had a day when you felt like just exhausted? There's a couple of days but then it's also nice that I think, while growing up and kind of avoiding some of the LGBT identity stuff, I kept myself busy

01:45:17.830 - 01:45:34.010

for that. wouldn't have to be too much in my thoughts or to dwell in my own introspection. But it's good because then I still have

01:45:34.010 - 01:45:43.840

time to now do that. But also, I guess if you it becomes a domino effect. Once you become involved in one organization, another

01:45:43.840 - 01:46:03.380

organization wants to get your input and in assistance also, and so it's kind of nice also to be viewed as so much of a resource, and I guess, asset to the community that that motivates you to do more and

01:46:03.380 - 01:46:20.920

then so some of the lack of sleeves is sometimes missed, but it's also nice that sometimes some of the volunteer work or even work itself doesn't always work. So throughout this journey, would you say you have had any regrets looking

01:46:21.000 - 01:46:44.920

back? Ah. Yes and no. When I decided to do the health field, I would probably done nursing. My parents thought nursing in the early 2000s

01:46:46.110 - 01:46:59.780

and late 90s was more of a female position. And so if I actually went into healthcare, I think I would have been a great nurse. But unfortunately, that is not the way the cards

01:47:00.970 - 01:47:09.930

laid out or how life worked. I could still probably go into nursing. But is that something I want to do? I don't know.

01:47:10.790 - 01:47:28.730

And I would probably get a better paying gig versus education. I don't know if I would be as involved in community though, because then I would be busy working in healthcare. I am

01:47:30.710 - 01:47:44.190

glad I have this other LGBT identity because then I wouldn't be close. I don't know if I'd be as close to my siblings, or even other community members, or have the friends that I have.

01:47:44.690 - 01:48:03.010

So that is something there and then I still have never regretted going or moving so much is it really made me stronger friend and also a companion to others, because then I understand how certain relationships can

01:48:03.010 - 01:48:19.620

be fleeting or short lived, as that was also something either in the Asian community or Vietnamese community with the war and also in the gay community with AIDS and so I think that's also a

01:48:20.360 - 01:48:39.160

another incentive or motivation of why I get involved and do–do more for the community because then you never know tomorrow's ever promised. Okay, so last question before we get to the COVID.

01:48:41.130 - 01:49:04.770

So, what is one thing you would tell yourself like when you were younger or maybe even to kids now? It's never too late to learn or continue learning. It's okay to

01:49:07.500 - 01:49:29.770

defy certain authorities or figures in your life. As long as you know you're doing good for others. Embrace certain friendships, but also learn not to be taken advantage of by others, then I think that's a hard

01:49:29.770 - 01:49:50.410

part distinguishing that and then also, if you're in a place where you're unfamiliar, are more vulnerable and it's easy to fall into any kind of certain sense

01:49:50.830 - 01:50:05.670

of safety. Then sometimes I guess you're in trouble. My dad actually has been robbed like twice a gunpoint and one time he gave them everything and still get a got pistol weapon into the hospital.

01:50:07.140 - 01:50:18.840

So he does have a distrust in society. I don't have that same kind of distress, luckily, but I do understand where he's coming, coming from.

01:50:20.590 - 01:50:37.620

I do keep people at a safe distance, sometimes letting others in. You can trust makes a big difference. Right. So, finally moving on to the COVID situation.

01:50:39.650 - 01:50:48.220

So how has COVID-19 like personally impacted your life? Luckily, education hasn't been hit too hard. It's interesting to work remotely.

01:50:49.940 - 01:51:07.890

Everyone's getting a little bit more tech savvy compared to our professors. So that's interesting. I think the uncertainty about, how this disease, this

01:51:08.890 - 01:51:26.370

sickness, disease, is treated... is where the most concern comes from an anxiety; as then there's not really a vaccine or a

01:51:29.010 - 01:51:42.330

certainty. Whereif you get it once, then you're done. You can get it a second time. I know my age and my status would be okay.

01:51:42.480 - 01:51:59.430

But worrying about family members like my grandmother, or anyone older or being a symptomatic, is worrisome. And so overall I'm fine.

01:51:59.740 - 01:52:11.100

My friends are fine. My siblings are fine. But I do worry about the older generation and then being a factor or being a

01:52:11.100 - 01:52:29.430

cause if they do get sick. So how do you think the pandemic has revealed like social inequalities in your society, and particularly maybe in the field that you specialize in? With education, it's, it's, yeah, you already saw that a little

01:52:29.430 - 01:52:40.530

bit while talking to students wasn't as an advisor, but then when students have to go on their own resources, students, not all students have their own computer or access to WiFi.

01:52:41.520 - 01:52:59.580

And then public places are closed, like libraries and stuff like that where people can't congregate, it really starts showing the inequities of where access and privilege is, unfortunately, and then

01:52:59.660 - 01:53:16.120

also relying on certain job positions or financial securities is not there. So that's tough. Some people may have family members that they can rely on some people

01:53:18.280 - 01:53:33.400

don't. Then it's interesting because then you have to have a certain level of empathy. But then you also have to be a certain level of respect and

01:53:35.170 - 01:53:47.250

congruence with academia, because then students that pass classes now are given a free pass may not have the foundation to move forward. And that doesn't really help them in the

01:53:47.250 - 01:54:01.360

long run. At the same time, and same token, you want to make sure that their circumstances are taking into consideration. But unfortunately, with the STEM field with science, technology, engineering and

01:54:02.280 - 01:54:20.980

math, there is a lot more at stake with accuracy and precision with calculations and measurements. Oh, it's a tough give and take on how

01:54:21.650 - 01:54:34.970

to deal with students like that. And also to make sure they're not being punished for the circumstances better. And so, finally, how has

01:54:35.340 - 01:54:54.350

the pandemic impacted the perceptions of the Asian American community? And have you personally felt like targeted during this will COVID I think it has been pretty negative and reminds me of other aspects of World War Two and the

01:54:54.350 - 01:55:11.260

internment camps. So everyone gets kind of the same with the health health disparities. Example is that it won't get lumped in together. And so yes, it came from China, but then all Asians

01:55:11.770 - 01:55:28.350

are Chinese and then so no one wants to take anything at all. When doesn't want to take enough precautions on how to equally treat people because then that's the same way other people of color

01:55:28.930 - 01:55:41.260

and other underrepresented groups because then all black people or so and so on Latinos are so and so and so. Asian Americans have been

01:55:41.300 - 01:55:55.180

treated even more unfairly because there are certain stipulations or stigmas or misunderstandings are not enough exposures to different races to know better.

01:55:57.010 - 01:56:12.010

In Houston, I think we're a little bit more fortunate because there is such a strong Asian population and other smaller communities not so much. Then there was an incident in Odessa

01:56:14.300 - 01:56:31.570

or it was in Texas, but it was in Costco or Sam's Club were somewhere was attacked for just being Asian and thinking that they were carriers. And so that's unfortunate. I have not personally felt that I think I've gotten a few weird

01:56:31.620 - 01:56:47.340

looks. But I don't know whether or not it's because people are just being cautious or, or not. I know some of those same feelings came up when I was younger. Because then there is always a certain sense of otherness.

01:56:49.220 - 01:57:07.630

But I haven't personally seen or any instances where I felt that I was being targeted because of COVID-19. Thank you so much for your time.

01:57:07.680 - 01:57:23.570

You're welcome. Thank you for having me and interviewing me. It was... a cool opportunity. Yeah, I think they will send you a completed transcript after the interview.

01:57:23.570 - 01:57:34.220

Okay, if you guys need anything else, you have my contact information and then I can go from there. Sure. Yeah, have a great rest of your day. You too!