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Today is January 11th, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. We're interviewing Karl Chang today for his oral history.

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Thank you so much, Karl, for joining us. Thanks for having me here. Pleased to be able to do this. Great, thank you. Let's get started. So can you tell us when and where were you born?

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So I was born in Houston, Texas. 1981, and sort of grew up there in Houston. My family, we lived

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closer into downtown, and then moved to California briefly for a year when I was in kindergarten, I think five or so. And then moved back to Houston, when I was six. And so I grew up in Clear Lake, which is a

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suburb between Houston and Galveston. And lived there basically, until college. Thank you. Can you describe the neighborhoods in Cl- Clear Lake? Like, what, what's the demographic like?

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What do you remember that was back then, that might be no longer here now? Yeah, so the neighborhood I grew up in was kind of Bay Forest, it was a neighborhood and Clear Lake, it was just sort of very classically, suburban. That's how I would describe it, or think about it.

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A lot of kind of families whose parents work in NASA, or engineers, or doctors. Kind of in the neighborhood, not– not... I don't think it was, it wasn't a particularly wealthy neighborhood or anything

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like that, you know. It was, but it also was very, sort of classically suburban, you know. I thought, just in terms of... I remember riding bikes around the neighborhood, you know, sort of very safe,

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people didn't really lock their doors, you know, that kind of place. And just wandering around the neighborhood as a kid, in a way that, that now I would think, you know, people just don't do that, you know, in terms of kind of safety and

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those kinds of things. So, yeah, yeah, that's how I describe it. Thank you. Um, and going back to your name, Karl Chang. And I remember your mother also

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mentioned you have a Chinese name. Can you share some of the stories behind your name? Like, is there a metaphor in your name? Or, like a Chinese kind of, I know, like Taiwanese have a

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lot of different characters that have different meanings in each character. Is that the case for you? Yeah, yeah. Um, I don't, I don't know.

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I've never, you know, really tried to attach that much to my Chinese name, although um, you know, curious as to whether others might, might ascribe more significance. There's uh...

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張亨雷. That's, that's my Chinese name. You know, which I understand to have some connotations of thunder and lightning. Oh, so I don't, you know, I, I

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don't consider myself to be a lot of thunder and lightning. But you know, that's my Chinese name. Thank you, very much reminded me of Thor, like Avengers. Looking at it. Yeah. Can you describe

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the household or the household you grew up in? Sure, it was my mom, my dad, sister and me in a sort of a very, kind of median, you know, kind of normal family.

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You know, I think one aspect of it was that, we were much of my extended family lived in other cities, you know, a lot of extended family in California in LA.

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So we didn't live with them, but would often kind of, you know, on the holidays, kind of traveled to California and kind of visit them and that kind of thing. But as far as our household it was just mom,

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dad, me and my sister. Great. And what does your sister do? Is he— is she also in DC or Houston? But she's in LA. She's in LA and she works at USC.

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Great, thank you, and what were your parents' occupation? So my father was an engineer who worked at NASA, Johnson Space Center, and he worked on the

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space shuttle, the sort of mission support for the space shuttle. And then my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and she's also a writer, and a journalist, author. So, so she had those jobs, in addition to raising

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me and my sister. Yeah, that's for many, it's a job to stay home. And, and next, I'm wondering, does your parents' occupation have an impact on your career decision?

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I don't know. I mean, that's a great question. You know, you... it doesn't look like it, right? Because, you know, I don't do as, kind of science or engineering field. You know, at the same time,

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you know, I'm a civil servant, I work for government, just like my dad was a civil servant. So. So, you know, I think that's, that's one thing that, um, you know.

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Maybe another point where that might be relevant as my mother, kind of a journalist, neither my parents have particularly lucrative professions, you know, and I think that was one of the, the bigger choices for

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me coming out of law school, you know, go work at a big law firm, or, you know, that kind of thing, or we're trying to go into public service. And you know, why— not

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really sure why you do something, you know, not to get too overly, sort of philosophical about freewill kind of thing. But, but I, I would sort of throw out there that my parents, their sort of big life choices

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in terms of sort of choosing to do what mattered to them, the most in terms of meaningful professions. I think that probably influenced me as well, in terms of maybe not pursuing the most lucrative profession, but, but doing

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something that that I think could be meaningful. Yeah, that was amazing. And I'm also wondering, did your parents bring you up studying Chinese, speaking Chinese?

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Or, like, how important is Chinese culture and heritage in your, in your education from your parents? Yeah, that's a great question. So I did go to Chinese school on the weekend growing up.

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As a kid, I remember that. Also, you know, studied Chinese, actually, my high school actually had Chinese and so I studied Chinese in high school, and then a little bit in college. My Chinese is terrible, though, I just have

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to go out, now would standing like my parents best efforts to, to sort of, you know, teach me Chinese and that kind of thing. You know, my terrible American accent. So, I just haven't– haven't been able to do

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enough in that regard. But I would say, you know, Chinese culture, and growing up, you know, both the language and the culture has been very important to me growing up, and I think formed a large part of my

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experiences growing up. So. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I guess I feel compelled to ask since I visited, like your parents house, and I happen to see a lot of literature on her bookshelf.

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And I was just wondering if you grew up reading any of the Chinese literature back then? No, no, I... Chinese was... I, my Chinese reading got pretty good at one point, but– but

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not... No. I'm really ashamed to say that I, I haven't done as much with that in terms of, you know, reading, reading Chinese literature. I briefly tried to read the "Sun Tzu Ping Fa," , you

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know, given my kind of interest in military, military stuff. But um, but no, I didn't get very far with that. Yeah, and I definitely love to capture that part of the story

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regarding your earlier encounter with, yeah, like war– warfare, and its sense of philosophy and so on. But before that, I was just wondering, also, what were some of the values that your parents empathize in your upbringing?

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Um, you know, I would say, you know, sort of the standard, or the standard things like you know, hard work and education being really important. You know, these are the, you know, it was in many

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respects, it was, I think, a very, you know, stereotypical kind of emphasis of family, you know, being the most important thing. You know, I remember my dad always saying to me talking about how important it

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was to be close to my sister. My sister and I actually didn't get along very much, you know, when we were little. But now we get along great. But, but didn't get along with my sister,

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or we fought a lot when we're kids. And we'll always remember my dad sort of emphasizing the importance of, you know, "Family, and, you know, your sister is the most important, the closest person to you, you know, after, you

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know, you... me and mom...” So, so, you know, just sort of the standard things of family, you know, hard work, education, you know, those kinds of, those kinds of things. Yeah, thank you. And I'm also wondering, in your childhood, what

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was your earliest and distinct memory? Of, of being Chinese? Is that right? Is that the question?

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Just being a child? Like, what's the— what's a distinct memory of your childhood growing up? Not... I mean, either, as that— can relate to your Asian identity or not? Yeah.

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Well, this is a tough one. I, you know, I um... just a couple, a couple random thoughts about my childhood.

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One of which was that, you know, although, you know, I think my parents emphasized a lot of the values that, you know, Chinese American families, other Asian American families emphasize, I don't think I was like, they were like, "tiger parents," you know, they weren't, they

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weren't like that, in terms of being very kind of prescriptive, or, you know, it definitely wasn't kind of helicopter parenting kind of things about, "Oh, you have to be a doctor." Or something like that.

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Now, I might be that way with my son, I might say, "Hey, you got to be a doctor." But my parents definitely weren't that way with me. The, you know, earliest memories, I have a terrible memory.

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So let me just put that out there first. You know, but, you know, I do remember, I read a lot when I was a kid, a lot of like science fiction books, and fantasy books, and that kinds of things.

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And I just remember, sitting in my room, sort of in the sunlight, you know, relaxing, reading, you know, and sort of just enjoying that feeling of being able to open a book and sort of go wherever, you know,

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wherever and whenever, you know, far off lands and that kind of thing. So. Yeah, that's incredible, that you started reading at such a young age. And I was also wondering, what

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was it like growing up as an Asian kid in your neighborhood? Were there many Asian families in Clear Lake back then? Yes, I thought so. But... I don't know, I'm not sure statistically, there were.

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But, but I just remember my friends growing up, you know, sort of down the street or the neighborhood. And I would say, you know, about half my friends growing up were Asian, of

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Asian descent, Asian American descent, you know, a lot of Chinese American families in the– in the neighborhood. A lot of my families, a lot of friends grew up also... were not of Asian descent, you know,

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you know. So I think a fairly diverse neighborhood. But, but, and that was, I guess, that was maybe one of the comments I would add about, about the neighborhood that or, or my Asian identity that it was always

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around. So I think some folks maybe grew up in a, you know, maybe one place where, you know, they say they grew up in Taiwan or something, and immigrated at an early age.

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You know, there's a sort of a transition where, you know, where you–you would, you know, now become much more aware of your kind of Asian identity, when you're no longer

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in Asia. Right. But, you know, for me, it was always growing up, you know, it was always there that you know, I was an Asian American kid, you know, and had lots of it

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wasn't as though you know, there weren't any others like me, there was lots of them, like me around. But also, there were lots of people who aren't like that. So, yeah.

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So that was always a, an aspect of my identity. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I'm also wondering if you felt any distinct conversations you had with your parents or grandparents and so

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on, regarding the, inter— the generational differences, generational gaps? Or anything that you felt that is pretty distinct between first and second generation

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immigrants? Yeah, I don't, I don't really recall, sort of specifically things like that, you know, with my, with my parents or with members of the previous generation, you know,

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you know, or my, my parents or uncles or aunts and that kind of thing. You know, I do really actually remember this one discussion, you know,

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from my Chinese class in high school. And it was with a guy named Tony, who was a, he was actually a first generation immigrant, or pretty close to that.

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And I just remember him saying, at one point, just talking about how it was basically, the– the comment, the gist of it was, you know, that my kids wouldn't sort of really learn Chinese in the same way, right?

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Just because, you know, I'm, as I mentioned, my Chinese isn't that good. And so there's, there is really kind of a sense of, you know, sort of transition or, or change. And, and, you know,

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that conversation has, has sort of stuck with me as something, you know, that it wasn't in a, it was in a hostile way, it was just a sort of a, an observation or something like that. And it's one that's sort of definitely true that my, you know,

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my son isn't gonna grow in the same way, in terms of household with sort of a strong native Chinese speakers, and it's gonna be different. And so I definitely

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feel that sort of change. And that's something that is just, I think, part of my experience. Yeah, that's so interesting. And since you brought up your next generation, I'm wondering, what kind

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of values would you instill with your children in their childhood? Well, I'm thinking a lot about this. Because my son, and he's coming up on three years old, right

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now, so. So a lot of thought, and, you know, how do you, how do you do this? How do you, you know, raise somebody to be a good person?

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You know, I think that's the most important thing. And then, and you want, you know, very, you know, the most basic, basic things to be taken care of, you know, I just want to make sure he doesn't become a criminal or a drug addict or something like

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that, you know. And, and, you know, keep him safe. So, you know, it's, I'd say, it's a big part of my identity right now trying to

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be a dad and trying to kind of be a good dad, and it causes a lot of reflections in my mind about you know, my own parents and sort of understanding them in a way that I didn't before, before, you know,

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when I didn't have a kid. So, you know, I guess I just hope to kind of do all the all the same things. And, you know, my dad always, you know, tried to, I think stress an upward progression, like,

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you know, "You're gonna have it better than me." You know, and in terms of more opportunities and that kind of thing. And so, that's sort of what I hope to pass on to my son. Yeah, that's incredible.

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And we definitely love to revisit that in a little bit, after we cover your education experiences. So can you speak a little bit about your school like from, say,

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middle school, junior high to high school? And then we'll cover your college experience later? Sure, so I went just the intermediate school down the street. You know, literally walked to school,

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you know, it was very kind of classically suburban kind of thing. And then the high school was– was also, also sort of down the street, too. And it was a large public high school.

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3000 some kids? You know, 3000... Well, yeah, a little more than 3000 kids, I think. So-so just a fairly large public high school in Texas.

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And, you know, enjoyed it and had a– I had a great time. Great, what are some of your favorite subjects back then? Um, favorite subject?

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And I don't know, really, actually, I'm... no. Although what I think I remember in high school was that it was very, sort of difficult, right. Just in terms of the schedule, and then the extra

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curricular activities. And then, you know, I just... One of my, I remember, memories is, and you could do this, when you're a high school student, I remember, like, eating an ice cream float,

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like getting ice cream, and then putting a coke or root beer on it, and are doing this at like, 9 or 10 in the evening. You know, it's just so I have enough energy to finish my homework and sort of power

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through the day and that kind of thing. You know, more than the subjects I remember, you know, some of the teachers, I guess, some way English teachers, you know, being,

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you know, people who are kind of inspiring, and, you know, hard working and, and who tried, you know, who, you know, really just tried to do a great job as teachers, so.

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Thank you. And what was your, like, friends' demographic like, in– in the school and in general? Yeah, I think about, again, I'm not sure actually what the demographic makeup of the school was

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probably, as a general matter. But a lot of my friends were, I think I mentioned about half of them were, you know, kind of like me, you know, children of Asian American immigrants, you know, a lot of

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Chinese, a lot of South Asian immigrants in the area. And then a lot were just sort of regular sort of White folks. And then, you know, not as much African

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American or Hispanic friends, although I did have African American and Hispanic friends growing up. So. And did you pick up any sports or musical instrument or any hobbies that you carried on through

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your current life? Yeah, so I mean, I, this is sort of the stereotypical thing, but I played piano growing up, you know, as a good Chinese kid playing piano, till I was about six.

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And then I played the trombone after that, all through middle school and high school. And I was a sort of band nerd, I was in the band, the marching band that's exceptionally nerdy.

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And then my friends also did workstreams. Like I... they, my friends also had a just sort of a small band that wasn't affiliated with the school, but was just sort of, you know, sort of

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like jazz or swing and that kind of thing. And that's one of the things that we did, which is a lot of fun. A lot of fun growing up. Great, and moving on to your college life.

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So you went to Yale College, and that is part of Yale— Yale University. Right? Right. Right, right. Yeah. Yale College is the undergraduate part of the university.

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And really enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it there. But continued to play trombone actually for a couple of years there, too, as well. So. And you studied Ancient Greek

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Literature? That's right. That's right. So I was in this, you know, the freshman year, they have this program called Directed Studies, which is a great books program, where you study history, literature, philosophy,

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and sort of study the canonical works of, you know, Western civilization, I guess. And so, I think I really enjoyed that program freshman year.

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And then that sort of sparked in me an interest in ancient Greek history. And then in particular, there was a professor named Donald Kagan, who's now, is now

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Emeritus, but was a sort of renowned classical historian. And then I became one of those people who took all of Don Kagan's classes and sort of really sort of was inspired by that; also took ancient Greek at UT Austin

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one summer, that is sort of intensive courses, where you sort of study for 12 weeks, eight hours a day kind of thing. And then cram a bunch of hours of instruction in language, so. Do you still speak ancient Greek?

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Yeah, I mean, no– nobody really speaks ancient Greek anymore. There is something called the erasmia and pronunciation or other pronunciations. But I do sort of, from time to time, read, read a little

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bit, you know, that's, that's one thing that, you know, I've enjoyed doing and continued to, continue to do just sort of for fun. It was just, that's my, that's my bookshelf.

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The green books on the bookshelf are all classical books. And what are some of the exciting and new things that you discover in history? And in particular,

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that really ancient history that you feel like the current civilization should learn more from? Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, that's, that was exactly why I loved it, I think, or what was

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uniquely terrific about it was, you know, this idea of people who are sort of separated from you by hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. And they're writing down ideas, and, and, and

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you're having a conversation with people, you know, who are separated by such distance from you. Both in sort of time and space. But at the same time, you're able to, you know, really have a

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dialogue with them. And so that's, that, to me, what was– what was so interesting about it, was this idea that some of these– these writings, you know, Plato and Aristotle and others, Thucydides.

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You know, when the people are trying to draw observations about history, about politics, about government, that these are things of enduring relevance that, you know, over, over the centuries, people have constantly looked back to;

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you know, and, and the fact that there is such a gulf between between us, and yet at the same time, were able to sort of profit from their, from their writing, you know.

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I think that's, that's one of the sort of most, you know, the most beautiful things to me about the classics is just being able to, to have that kind of conversation with people from, from antiquity.

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Wow, that's really inspiring. And I hope, after reading about your oral history, people will start picking up that subject more. And I'm wondering, so you study literature, which is like philosophy, and

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not so much as like the, the Greek myths? Or both? So mostly what I studied was, I say, history and political philosophy. And so there's the first

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historians, Heraclitus and Thucydides. I read a lot of Thucydides when I was in college. Was what my, one of our roommates would always joke about that, because I'd have... He asked what I was reading, and

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I would say, "Well, I'm reading Thucydides." And he's like, "You've been reading Thucydides." You know, for years, he's— he complained that I was taking the same course over and over again. You know, but there's, there's a lot a lot to unpack in it.

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And so he wrote a history of the— Thucydides wrote the history of the Peloponnesian War. I also studied a lot of Plato, sort of the political philosopher Plato, and, and his writings.

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And, and so, so that was sort of the focus of my studies, so I wrote a paper on, I think my senior paper was about sort of the ancient Greek notions of democracy, and, and sort of what it meant

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to them, you know, and that just the paper was that, you know, all of the, of our understandings of ancient Greek democracy, you know, things like Athenian democracy really come from people who are sharply

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critical of it. So Plato and others are actually very critical of the, of it as an institution. And so I think my paper was trying to understand, well, if you were somebody who actually believed in

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democracy, and not one of its harshest critics, what would you explain it to be? How would you— how would you promote this idea? And so that was those sort of one of the– one of

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the things I study. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. Thank you. And I guess moving on, like, what was your decision to transition from ancient Greek studies to,

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to studying law and becoming a JD? Yeah, so I remember my, my, one of my senior, one of my college professors, who was sort of an advisor for me senior year, and I remember talking

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to him a lot. Victor Bears, kind of a classics professor, I think he's also Emeritus now. And I remember, Professor Bears said, when I told him I was, you know, going to law school, he, you know, he was like, "Well, here's, here's who you write the

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checks to, you know, make sure you put the classics department on the check. Because otherwise they'll give it to the football team." Or something like that. So, you know, when if you studied classics, there aren't as many

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obvious career paths sort of other than being a classicist or professor. You know, so, so law was sort of a way to find a job, I think after college. And, and that was, you know, that was a—

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I would say, that was one of the reasons why, you know, people should not go to law school in retrospect, you know. You know, advising kind of younger people today, I would say if you're just looking for a degree that will help you get a job, you should probably not going to law school, you

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should pick a different degree. But for me, I think it turned out okay, because temperamentally, I think I'm, I enjoyed law school a lot and enjoyed the legal profession.

00:33:39.930 - 00:33:54.690

So it probably wasn't the right reason. But it fortuitously worked out for me. Now, that's so interesting. And you after Harvard Law School, you also went to do a few

00:33:54.730 - 00:34:11.670

internships and like, started out, trying to go down the lawyer career route, right? Yeah, so sort of during law school, I, I worked at some law firms in Houston, in the summer.

00:34:13.420 - 00:34:28.090

And then, and then ended up, you know, after law school, you know, working for the Department of Defense right afterwards. So had some fairly, I would say, normal, what

00:34:29.670 - 00:34:47.300

are called, summer associate clerkships, sort of during law school, you know, at some law firms. And then, ultimately decided not, not to go back to Houston or Texas to practice law, but instead work

00:34:47.300 - 00:35:03.070

at DoD after law school. So, did you just kind of, um, interested in the Department of Defense? Or like, were there some kind of event or incident that happened that draw you to that?

00:35:06.640 - 00:35:25.720

Yeah, so how did I end up at the Department of Defence? You know, I would say that 911, which, which happened when I was in college, actually had a big impact on me in terms of, you know, thinking

00:35:25.720 - 00:35:45.250

about, you know, what I wanted to do. You know, after law school, I was actually initially supposed to join the army as a lawyer. So I applied to the Army Judge Advocate program, and had been accepted.

00:35:46.050 - 00:36:03.780

And was actually going through like, the physicals and everything, you know, to join the military. When basically, was, was in one of my law professors office hours one day, sort of thir-third year law school

00:36:03.900 - 00:36:19.950

and sort of talking to him about what I wanted to do. And he suggested working at the Defense Department, and sort of a, in a civilian capacity. And, and I was like, "Well, sure, you know, why not?

00:36:20.540 - 00:36:35.180

That'll be interesting." And, and he emailed somebody he knew at the Defense Department at the time that the general counsel of the Defense Department, and got me an interview. And so that's how I sort of

00:36:35.180 - 00:36:47.550

ended up at DoD. Yeah, it's so interesting. You brought up 911 as part of that motivation. And do you remember, what

00:36:47.550 - 00:37:01.790

were you d— where, what were you doing? Where you were? And how did you feel when you first heard about the 911? Yeah, I remember where I was.

00:37:04.280 - 00:37:19.240

I was actually, it was very strange. It was actually like, I went to the... I remember waking up, and then, you know, the TV was on and my college roommates, you know,

00:37:19.240 - 00:37:38.570

we're all sort of watching the TV. And learning about what happened. And, you know, I would say the, for me, I think one of the things that reinforced was this

00:37:38.570 - 00:37:54.410

notion. You know, that kind of history wasn't over, right, that there's, there was a sort of an idea in vogue at the time, and our political science classes, "Is history over"? "Is there really a sort of a progression to sort of

00:37:54.410 - 00:38:06.650

this new world order where everything is very peaceful?" And, "we'll work out all their problems sort of diplomatically and through international institutions." And sort of "wars is something of the past." And I think that, that

00:38:06.650 - 00:38:18.390

was sort of you know, for me something well, well, actually, I think that that'd be very nice if history were over; but, but in fact that history is not over and so.

00:38:20.520 - 00:38:42.980

You know, I think that was something that, that shaped a lot of my, you know, viewpoints and a lot of the, you know, that sort of interest in classics and, and, and those kinds of things. Yeah,

00:38:42.980 - 00:38:57.200

definitely. Yeah, I'm sure that 911 has got so much stories in each of our memories that each of us has contributed to this collective memory will go down in the generations, as well.

00:38:57.880 - 00:39:15.060

And I'm also wondering, so you've done a lot of work at the Department of Defense, including written part of the chapters, part of the War Manuals, can you speak a little bit more about the work that you've been doing

00:39:15.150 - 00:39:32.380

at the DoD? Sure, sure, happy to do that. So I'm a lawyer at the Department of Defense, sort of an Associate General Counsel, I work at the— that means a very low ranking,

00:39:32.380 - 00:39:48.650

I don't have... I'm a very junior person. The— so I work in the International Affairs Division at the Office of General Counsel, and the specific area that I work on is kind of public international law,

00:39:50.290 - 00:40:02.830

the laws of war. So the bodies of international law that governs armed conflict, and it addresses things like the, or includes things like the Geneva Conventions in 1949, you know, which relate to the protection

00:40:02.830 - 00:40:15.900

of war victims, protections of prisoners of war, protections of civilians. So. So that's, you know, sort of my job in a nutshell, is to advise on

00:40:15.900 - 00:40:30.240

international humanitarian law, laws of war, and provide that advice to senior officials at the department, provide that advice to policymakers, you know, sometimes will represent the department in various

00:40:31.930 - 00:40:50.990

international capacities or intergovernmental discussions. So. It's really interesting. And I'm also wondering, with your thesis that you did at Yale regarding democracy, did that also kind

00:40:50.990 - 00:41:11.420

of contribute to part of your written work regarding technology and weaponry? I don't think so. I mean, the, is they're pretty far

00:41:11.420 - 00:41:29.500

apart. I guess. That's why, that's why my reaction. You know, I think the, the Greeks were democrats who believed, who believed in democracy, right. They defined it in terms of the rule of law, that–

00:41:29.890 - 00:41:46.120

that was one of the key characteristics of, of their form of government. And then the other key point about it, you know, is, is from a line in the speech given by Pericles, is that, that, that— they call it a democracy,

00:41:46.890 - 00:42:03.980

because it's administered for the benefit of the many, rather than the few. And so this idea that the essence of democracy isn't that, you know, you have every single person deciding on every single issue, you know, by vote; but,

00:42:03.980 - 00:42:18.310

but that the whole, the public good, the, that is the government should be administered, you know, you know, for the benefit of the many, being the, being the central characteristic.

00:42:19.770 - 00:42:43.730

And I don't know that that's particularly been impactful on my work, other than to, then to say that I think that the same spirit of, I think rule of law, and, you know, is–

00:42:43.730 - 00:43:00.900

is sort of at the core of all the lawyers who work in the government that this is sort of incredibly, incredibly important for us, though this is what we do is help the government abide by the law, and help the officials who are–who are sworn to uphold the law, adhere to their,

00:43:01.350 - 00:43:18.330

their oath to do so. So what do you envision in 20 years, the years will be like in terms of, like government, and AI, and weaponry?

00:43:23.590 - 00:43:38.440

I don't know, that's a good question. You know, there's a, you know, philosopher who has noted that predictions are hard because they're about the future. So I would join myself in that, that observation by

00:43:38.440 - 00:43:57.570

Mr. Yogi Berra, I believe. You know, I think the—I think the long term fundamentals of our country are very strong. So I, I'm confident, I'm hopeful, you know,

00:43:57.570 - 00:44:13.500

that the things that have made America, you know, the United States, a strong and successful country, we'll continue to continue to do that,

00:44:15.720 - 00:44:32.000

you know, rule of law, you know, innovation, you know, encouraging free thinking, and that kind of culture. So I'm hopeful that those qualities will continue in our

00:44:32.000 - 00:44:45.650

country; and, and will continue to have a role in making the world a better place. So that's my hope, if

00:44:45.670 - 00:45:02.790

not a prediction. Thank you for sharing that. And, yeah, I'm also very curious, since your family background, your dad has been working in the NASA, and as an engineer, and that probably, I don't know, that contributed to

00:45:02.790 - 00:45:18.810

your various scientific and logical mind? And also your mom, being a writer who has, yeah, like, and also a lot of studies in Chinese literature. I'm wondering have that, that both parts from your parents

00:45:18.810 - 00:45:42.080

contributed, or in any way impacted your current work as a lawyer, and also a writer in terms of this very essential work at the DoD? I don't know, I don't know.

00:45:42.080 - 00:45:58.510

I'm a... I hate to just sort of, sort of convey so much ignorance about where I came from and or who I am and how I became to be who I am.

00:45:58.510 - 00:46:12.980

But, you know, I like to think that what you're saying is correct, that, that there's, you know, parts of me that came from my parents, including a more logical part, you know,

00:46:12.980 - 00:46:29.170

that sort of scientific part, and then more literary part. I think that's one of the more interesting things about the law and the legal profession, is that it's, there's, it's, it's a

00:46:29.170 - 00:46:48.770

combination of both of those things. Kind of a, an essential logic, which is supposed to underlie the law. But also, you know, it's supposed to, you know, persuade people at the end of the day, who often are not

00:46:48.770 - 00:47:05.540

logical and rational. And so. So I think the law is, is a, is a merger of those two, sort of, sort of strands. Yeah, it's such an

00:47:05.650 - 00:47:20.630

interesting connection. And, yeah, and also very, really essential in part of the nation. And I guess the next few questions will be on discussion about some of the questions in our racial

00:47:20.630 - 00:47:38.120

justice and civic engagement special collection, as we just passed by the current election two months ago, as well as coming up to the exchange of power, what are some of the key factors that impacted your

00:47:38.120 - 00:48:05.420

voting decision early last year? You know, I think that anyone when thinking about leaders about, about who would lead our country, you know, I think it's important to think about

00:48:05.420 - 00:48:20.840

policies, you know, what policies would– would be most advanced by, by the choice of candidate. I think character is also incredibly important, you know.

00:48:22.150 - 00:48:37.780

Does the person, you know, have the character? You know, I think with any, I think one of the things about government is that you sort of never know what's going to happen next that, you know, people have

00:48:37.780 - 00:48:53.240

plans and policies about what will happen in the future. But there's going to be something like 911, or, you know, Katrina or the COVID pandemic. That the challenge is that an elected government is going to

00:48:53.240 - 00:49:08.900

face that, the American people are going to face, are going to be unexpected. And so one of the most important things in choosing a leader is: does the person have the character?

00:49:09.470 - 00:49:27.560

Does the person have the competence and skills necessary to deal with those unforeseen circumstances? So I think those are just some general considerations that I would say are

00:49:27.890 - 00:49:43.630

important or should be important to people and in choosing an elected official. And what are your thoughts about the assignment of Kamala Harris that will become the first woman

00:49:43.630 - 00:50:05.990

of color in the White House? I mean, I think, I think that's great, right? I mean, I'm, in terms of kind of diversity and advancing,

00:50:08.510 - 00:50:26.970

advancing the government, I think, you know, on the one hand, it's important just to, you know, respect every person for who they are, you know, not not being, you can't reduce people to kind of a racial, ethnic

00:50:26.970 - 00:50:43.040

identity. You know, so I think that's, you know, that's important that people be judged and commended for their kind of personal accomplishments and achievements. You know, but at the same time, you know,

00:50:43.100 - 00:51:02.880

I think it's an important hallmark of, and a sign of a, of a progressing society, when– when there's more kind of diversity in, in the, in the ranks of leadership. And I think that, you know,

00:51:02.880 - 00:51:21.060

having, having a diverse background, and officials of a diverse, diverse background is important. You know, one, you know, one reflection, you know, from my time at the Department of Defense, one of

00:51:21.160 - 00:51:36.320

the things that I've been, I think, really proud of is, is the fact that, you know, when I would go on a, on a delegation, a US delegation, to any us delegation to, you know, some kind of international conference,

00:51:36.700 - 00:51:52.310

you know, if you look at the US side, it's, it's, uh, it would often be a fairly diverse group of people, you know, people of different ethnic backgrounds, people of different— people who didn't all look the same. You know, and then, you know, when, when you in

00:51:52.840 - 00:52:07.340

most of the times in dealing with people from other countries, that they didn't have that much. And so I think that's, you know, one of the things, that's a great strength of our, of our country, and one of the particular, you know,

00:52:07.700 - 00:52:22.710

kind of points of pride that I've had, in getting to serve the department. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, yeah, I totally agree that at some point, like being

00:52:23.510 - 00:52:37.040

racially equal, it doesn't mean that overlooking one's racial qualities; but, yeah, but like, as a whole package. And, and next, I'm wondering, what's your relationship with Black Lives Matter?

00:52:41.890 - 00:52:57.760

I don't, I don't, I wouldn't say that I have a particular relationship with, with Black Lives Matter. You know, I've– I've been, you know, sort of participating in the organization or advocacy work along those

00:52:57.760 - 00:53:15.930

lines, you know, none of my, you know, job duties or anything, have anything to do with that, you know, kind of thing. You know, I think, you know, I, I've thought a lot about, you know, racial justice and

00:53:17.640 - 00:53:32.370

you know, that's– that's racial justice in our country, and I think that's one of the things that's personally important to me as, as an issue. You know, but I don't have a particular relationship with the Black Lives Matter movement.

00:53:34.820 - 00:53:47.630

Yeah, thank you for sharing. And I guess, moving on as I'm curious as with your work, it has so many portrayal in mainstream media, like, we've

00:53:48.750 - 00:54:07.660

been seeing the pop— very popular TV series, "The Black Mirrors," was there— just wondering if there's any TV shows that you consider that is a very interesting portrayal of the future of like, AI and technology in

00:54:07.660 - 00:54:26.590

our society? Yeah, it's a great question. So. So generally, I think, you know, I, you know, the, I think

00:54:26.590 - 00:54:42.880

we've, the government has tried to, in the matters that I work on, I think, sort of, tried to keep the discussions more realistic and not focused on, on things that are sort of related to science fiction, or that

00:54:42.880 - 00:54:58.100

kind of thing. You know, I think the, you know, the, you know, I think one of the, one of the things that, at least on the areas that I work on, you know, there's

00:55:01.690 - 00:55:20.390

a, is that is how sort of incremental, you know, these kinds of technologies are. In other words, so there's a, there's a famous saying that, you know, "The future is already here, it's just not distributed evenly yet." And

00:55:20.390 - 00:55:35.610

so, you know, I think along the same lines, you know, a lot of the—a lot of the technologies that are being used are, and that will probably be very influential in the future are sort of already here.

00:55:36.040 - 00:55:51.270

It's just—it's just a question of them being, you know, perhaps more widely used or used in different, different ways, as well as kind of significant

00:55:53.920 - 00:56:02.220

advances in the technological capabilities. Sorry, this isn't a regular thought through question. I'm trying to...

00:56:07.780 - 00:56:21.450

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. But I'm, I'm at a loss to see if there's any sort of particular science fiction or fiction that I would recommend.

00:56:26.230 - 00:56:39.810

Or would there be any, like novels or writing that you think that really influenced you and your thoughts? Not only kind of in your scholarship work; but also just in your, for your leisure?

00:56:45.640 - 00:56:59.440

Yeah, one. Maybe going back to the, the discussion about classics, you know, I think one of the, and the director of studies program, you know, that I went through in college,

00:57:00.680 - 00:57:15.900

one of the really enjoyable aspects of it was just reading so many different thinkers who were writing about different— about the same ideas in some instance, and sort of having a different perspective on it.

00:57:16.410 - 00:57:29.750

And I, you know, one of the things that always struck me was some— how some of the writers I would really get and be like, "Oh, I think like this person." You know, or, "This person's mode of writing is very clear." And even though

00:57:29.750 - 00:57:45.750

they're, you know, writing, you know, 300 or 400 years ago, I, I feel like, you know, I could sit down and have a conversation and we would sort of really sync up. And then others who might have read and like,

00:57:45.970 - 00:57:58.430

"This is a terrible writer, and I completely don't—" You know, "I completely disagree with all their conclusions." And, you know, that kind of thing. So, I...

00:57:58.430 - 00:58:17.960

You know, I would say that there's one sort of modern philosopher whom I like a lot. His name is Nassim Taleb. And he's written a book called "The Black Swan", which is very famous, very popular, as

00:58:17.960 - 00:58:38.850

well as a number of other books. But I definitely enjoy his writing style as well as his kind of resort to a lot of the insights from behavioral economics and psychology,

00:58:39.890 - 00:58:55.910

about human nature; as well as the–the basic point that people are not very good at understanding the limitations of their own knowledge. And so, you know, it's–it's a point which comes really from Socrates,

00:58:57.160 - 00:59:13.970

Plato's "Apology" were sort of, Socrates makes the point that sort of: the essence of wisdom is knowing that we know knowing what we don't know. To know, to know, to understand our own ignorance,

00:59:14.960 - 00:59:26.360

it's sort of, as sort of the first step of, of understanding. And that too often people think they know when they do not know. And that, and that this

00:59:26.360 - 00:59:37.950

is perhaps the most dangerous thing is when somebody thinks that they know something, but they actually don't know something. So. So I guess that's why I'm also very hesitant to make any predictions about the future.

00:59:38.280 - 00:59:52.770

Because I'm certain that I know, I know for certain that, that I don't know what will happen in the future. Yeah, thank you. And I also admire your modesty being such a highly achieving

00:59:52.840 - 01:00:08.180

person. And, and I would definitely love to, as that you're talking about the–the human ignorance from Greek literature— what has COVID-19 told us about, yeah, like the

01:00:08.250 - 01:00:30.130

world and mankind, if you're interested to share with us. I don't have any brilliant insights about COVID-19, I don't think... I think I'm just trying to survive it like everybody else, you know, in terms of kind

01:00:32.630 - 01:00:47.830

of hunkering down and surviving that kind of quarantine. I'm a bit of a hermit and a misanthrope to begin with, so it actually wasn't, it's by much less burdensome for me than for other people.

01:00:48.660 - 01:01:04.640

But even I, you know, sort of yearning to, you know, throw a party and have friends over and, you know, for dinner and that kind of thing, and, you know, just really looking forward to the day, then we can all do that.

01:01:04.640 - 01:01:19.300

I think, you know, there's, there's a, of course, a tragic aspect of this, that, that, you know, you know, millions of people have died, or will die from it.

01:01:21.170 - 01:01:35.420

But, you know, at the same time, I think there's a bit of the, the other side of the story is technology, and how fast people have been able to develop vaccines, or, you know, figure out the modes of transmission

01:01:36.770 - 01:01:51.510

of the virus and what steps can be taken to stop it. And so, you know, I think there is a, you know, a positive story here, too, especially when one considers that, that, you know, sort of plagues and

01:01:51.510 - 01:02:12.150

pandemics are something which, you know, people regularly, you know, through history have encountered, and this is one of those where, you know, we're now able to, to meet it with sort of advanced technologies, and in a way that probably save a

01:02:12.180 - 01:02:27.020

lot more lives than then would be without those–without those technologies. Yeah, absolutely. Like the speed of how humans become so adapted to Zoom, as we are doing so

01:02:27.020 - 01:02:46.830

now. It's really incredible. And I'm also wondering, how have your, like relationship with your loved ones been since the start of the pandemic? Yeah, yeah, that's a– it's a great question.

01:02:47.600 - 01:03:02.980

Um, it's good. You know, me and my wife are sort of taking care of our son at home, who's, as I mentioned, coming up on three. So it's been a

01:03:03.010 - 01:03:17.980

challenge to have a crazy toddler running around the house. And then, you know, kind of work from home and all that. So that's been, you

01:03:17.980 - 01:03:32.580

know, it's–it's been tough. That's been, that's been difficult, but, but it's also really an unexpected blessing too, because, you know, if he was in sort of daycare as–as would normally be the

01:03:32.580 - 01:03:45.850

case, you know, I wouldn't get to see so much of him, his growing up, you know. So I've, I've really gotten something very special about it in terms

01:03:46.110 - 01:04:04.230

of being able to, to kind of watch him grow through a very formative period. And so that's, that's something you know, I'll treasure. You know, of course, it's also been difficult not–not being able to visit with my

01:04:04.230 - 01:04:19.710

mom who's in Houston. But, but I think we're surviving over here. Thank you so much for sharing that. And we all hope this will be over soon.

01:04:19.710 - 01:04:32.890

And you get to visit mom here in Houston. And hopefully, the Rice campus some time too. And I guess that's we are approaching the end of the interview, just want to ask if you would be interested to kind of do a time cap–

01:04:33.380 - 01:04:44.070

capsule with us for your son, your future grandchildren and the generations to come? Like any messages you would like to leave for them.

01:04:46.530 - 01:05:00.330

So how does the— is it literally a time capsule kind of thing that you're planning to open? Or is it just sort of an open ended thing? I'm just curious. Sure, it will be, I guess, an open ended because it will be

01:05:00.400 - 01:05:17.540

published. And, but I would hope this is like a legacy project that your children will be interested to find out more about their grandparents. I mean, your grandchildren or future generations, will be interested to hear what their,

01:05:18.690 - 01:05:26.790

yeah, their grandparents and so on. What they were like? What they talked about? And what their occupations were?

01:05:28.230 - 01:05:46.960

To build that connection, I think it's really interesting, I hope you would be interested to–to participate. So I wrote this essay that I've shared with some friends. But I would

01:05:48.080 - 01:06:00.690

read it out and, and contribute it to the time capsule aspect of it if that's okay? It's probably six to eight minutes long. So it's a little long,

01:06:00.750 - 01:06:13.190

but... Yes, yes. If we've got time. Yeah, we do have time. Yeah, definitely. That will be really amazing. Okay, let me pull it out.

01:06:15.850 - 01:06:29.970

So this is my essay that I wrote, and that I've shared with a few friends. But I do want to share it more broadly. And I've titled it "Life, Death and the

01:06:30.040 - 01:06:43.310

Laws of War." I didn't see how much death was in my job until my dad died. Since 2006, I've worked as a lawyer for the US Department of Defense.

01:06:44.170 - 01:07:01.660

I worked on a lot of interesting things, mostly at the Pentagon, but occasionally going to some interesting places. Guantanamo Bay, Geneva, the Hague, Kampala. Perhaps the biggest thing I worked on, was the first Department War

01:07:01.660 - 01:07:17.310

Manual on the law of war. There were lots of other people involved, but I was the chief author, really the— the Scrivener. Some people get in my line of work because they've heard about atrocities in faraway places, the Holocaust

01:07:17.630 - 01:07:32.600

genocides in Africa; maybe they studied international criminal courts and law school, or interned for a human rights group. They're on the humanitarian side of the house. There's another side—the national security side, filled with

01:07:32.630 - 01:07:46.620

people who signed up to prevent atrocities at home. A couple months after 911, I visited Ground Zero. Somebody from my college arranged a large group of students to visit. I remember thinking that it looked like...

01:07:47.240 - 01:07:58.300

it looked just on–on TV. I remember thinking that it looked like it looked... on TV. Like scenes from a disaster movie. But what I really remember is the

01:07:58.300 - 01:08:12.490

memorial that the families that are already set up a crayon drawing– drawing with the title, a crayon drawing with the title, "World's best dad," a missing person flyer with a picture of a young Japanese tourist captioned, "Have you seen our son?"

01:08:13.510 - 01:08:24.590

I couldn't stop crying on the dark bus ride back home to campus. I kept thinking about the kids of the firefighters and police officers who drew those pictures. I remembered how my dad was so pleased when

01:08:24.640 - 01:08:38.950

I got him a kitschy mug that said, "World's best dad." I kept thinking about how far from home that tourists was and how confused his parents must have been. I kept praying for a chance to do something so that memorials like that wouldn't go up.

01:08:39.870 - 01:08:54.480

I promise God, I give whatever I could if He gave me the chance to make a difference. After my dad died, I felt like the top layer of my skin was burned off, leaving my flesh raw nerve endings exposed.

01:08:55.340 - 01:09:08.270

My sister has always complained that I'm a robot and incapable of emotion. That's not true. But I confess that I've tried to appear that way most of the time. I felt death everywhere.

01:09:08.270 - 01:09:20.010

It showed up in my job. They were planning a strike against an important target that was expected to cause a lot of civilian casualties. It was an ISIS-controlled bulk cash

01:09:20.950 - 01:09:39.020

storage site with millions of dollars, military jargon for a bank taken over by terrorists. The legal formula is that, it is not prohibited to conduct attacks unless the expected civilian casualties are excessive, compared to the

01:09:39.070 - 01:09:52.100

concrete and direct military advantage expected to be gained. The textbook way to analyze this problem: hitting the target would save lives. It would take enemy fighters off the battlefield, the war will be shorter.

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If you take it too far, this logic is easy to ridicule, it was necessary to destroy the village to save it. But it's a hard logic to refute when you were a member that lives on both sides of the equation.

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When you remember that we're fighting genocidal assholes. The reason for the strike is to save refugees from being slaughtered on mountaintops, to protect marketplaces, nightclubs and concerts.

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After my dad died, I still believed all the same things, still believed that war and for in far corners of the world was necessary to keep skyscrapers in lower Manhattan from falling down. But I felt different

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thinking it... it's different when death visits you intimately. It was strange feeling different, but even stranger not talking about it with anyone. I remember a meeting with people from “Doctors Without

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Borders” after we hit their hospital in Kundis . The official explanation was that their people died in a tragic incident caused by a combination of human errors compounded by process and equipment failures.

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The meeting was about the department's efforts to express condolences to show them that we were really really sorry. It was a small meeting. I had a bit part, but I just wanted to tell them that we knew death—

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that I knew death. How many people in the room on our side had lost someone? It would have been weird to just blurt out, you know, "My dad died." "My friend died in Iraq." "We feel your pain." I wasn't sure

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that everyone on our side did. I did. But I didn't blurt anything out. I just played my part explained the legal points, tried to sound like a robot.

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I saw later that the strike was successful in destroying the target. CNN reported that US commanders would have considered up to 50 civilian casualties for the strike, but that perhaps only five to seven people died.

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I wondered who they were. I wondered if anyone was crying for mom or dad. I was supposed to give a talk in New York on the department's “Law of War Manual” on the margins of

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some UN meetings. It was a big deal for me— my first public talk after years of spending most of my spare hours on that manual, and have a debutante ball. I came up to Manhattan the night before, my talk

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was supposed to be the next morning. My mom called me in the middle of the night to tell me that my dad died. Then to tell me that the doctors were trying to save him and that she had to go because the doctors needed to talk to her.

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I remember it being dark checking out the hotel walking to the train station in the middle of the night. Riding a train back to DC learning he died, catching a flight back to Houston. On the way home I kept breaking down crying when I couldn't hold the sadness inside me.

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A couple years earlier I went to my uncle's funeral and I just couldn't understand how my cousin gave the eulogy about his dad so calmly. I thought there was no way I could ever do that. But I did. I still

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remember what the sky felt like that day. It was perfect weather, Houston in November. And one of the first interagency meetings after I came back to work, a senior lawyer at the State

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Department, whom I respect a lot came up to me and asked, if I was okay. I didn't know what to say any preempted, any awkward silence blurting out that of course, I wasn't okay, that it'd be like seven years

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before I was okay, that I'd never really be okay again. He told me a story about how after his dad died, a senior lawyer awkwardly told him, it'd be good to go back to work.

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It was comforting knowing that other people have been through what you're going through. And what he said was comforting too. You really don't want to be okay, because you're afraid that if you're okay, it means

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your dad is really gone. I came to my job to justify the war. And I did a lot of that. But mostly, I worked to restrain the war. War means the authority to use military force.

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But it also means constraints. Fighting war means fighting by the law of war. I worked on DoD's regulations and treating detainees humanely on an executive order and

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mitigating civilian casualties. I remember a year or so after I started my job, my sister suggested moving out to LA and trying to be a screenwriter with her. I remember reflexively, heartily, saying, "No, I want to

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do something meaningful, important." I want to do something meaningful and important. But nowadays, I get tired of wars. Sometimes, I wonder if I made the right choice.

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I wonder if I kept my promise to God to give whatever I could. So many people have given so much... have given so much more to me.

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So much more than me. I don't want you to think that I'm saying that I learned a big life lesson from my dad's death that it was good for me in some way. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, even though most everyone will suffer through darkness like this.

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I want you to know that behind the government's bland bureaucratic pros, there are real people. People with feelings, not robots. I want you to know the truth that I believe after my years of

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lawyer in war. War is necessary; war is chaos, rife with honest mistakes; or most of all is death. And Laws of War.

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When they restrain the armed forces, and even when they justify killing, this law tries to protect life. Mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. That's why they call it—Humanitarian Law.

01:15:58.280 - 01:16:10.420

Wow, that was beautiful. Is that the end of it? Yeah. Yeah. That's the end of it. Wow, I feel like, you kind of fit

01:16:10.420 - 01:16:24.060

this into a kind of a time zone where there's just so much to think about and ruminate on. That's, yeah, that was beautiful. Um, is there anything else you would like to

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share? No, no, I'm, I'm, I think I'm okay. Now, I just appreciate the opportunity to, to contribute, to kind of

01:16:40.890 - 01:16:54.080

share stories and you know, really appreciate the work you're doing and setting up this kind of archive; and letting people tell their stories. And so I just want to thank you for doing that.

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Thank you.