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We're here on July 7th 2014 with Mr Jimmy Kuma at 10 o'clock in the morning. This is an interview being conducted by Rachel Wong and Caroline Drew for the Houston Asian American Archive in the chow Center for Asian Studies at Rice University. Mr Cumana. Could you

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begin by telling us a little bit about how you grew up and your childhood? Uh Well, I had a somewhat unusual childhood because I was uh um essentially a after my, my, my father had left the country on a job assignment before I was born or

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shortly after I was born actually before. And uh uh at that time, people didn't travel by air, they traveled by ship. So he was going from Bombay India to London where he had his job assignment and my mother was pregnant at the time and uh she

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got very seasick. So he continued and went on to England and she came back and I was born in India. Otherwise I might have been born in England. Wow, that's amazing. And then about at the age of six months uh or thereabouts, uh my mother then

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felt that I was uh ok, So she went on to join my father in England and I was raised by my grandparents for the first five or six years of my life. So you remained in Bombay. I remain in Bombay. Um When you were young, it

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was right after the partition, right? Yes, I almost immediately after. Yes. What was it like? Well, I don't remember, I mean, you know, I was too, I was a baby. Did you feel that the partition affected how you grew up in any way? I have no

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way of knowing. But I don't think so. I think if, if at all anything I would say it's either neutral or positive. Ok. But anyway, so that's the beginning. So then my parents uh returned from England when my father's job assignment was over and at the

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age of six, I went to live with them. Uh initially for the first couple of years I didn't recognize them and I continued to live with my grandparents, both sets by the way, and who, who lived close to each other. And uh it was about a

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year and a half or two before I went to live with my uh biological parents. Before that, they used to just come to visit me on the weekends. So, I mean, but it was great because both my father and mother were the eldest in their families,

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relatively large families in those days, six and seven uh brothers and sisters. So a number of my aunts and uncles were not much older than me. Ok. In fact, I'm closer in age to some of them than they are to my parents. So, uh, I had

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a wonderful child, I have to say. And I was the only grandchild till I was about six years old when my brother was born and he was the second grandchild and then the third grandchild didn't come for another four or five years. So then there was

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a whole bunch of them within one year of each other. Ok. But uh I have uh some uh watering of the eye. So I'm gonna get a napkin. Yes, I thought I had some tissues. Ok. So I had, I would say a very privileged and happy

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childhood and uh went to one of the best schools in when I graduated, I went to one of the best universities in the country. The top five have a good night. Can you tell us any fond memories stories that you have? Uh well, uh I mean,

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uh I was, as I say, quite privileged that my maternal grandfather particularly was a very wealthy man. And we live in, I uh the the house doesn't exist anymore but uh it it wasn't kind of a mansion. He made his money in the textile trade. He

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was actually a medical doctor. But uh uh at that time, people in, in, but he, he wanted to serve the poor. But there's no, there's no way you can make a living by serving the poor. So he couldn't make any money. So, one of his friends

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got him into the textile business and he joined that and I don't know exactly what he did, but he used to convince me that uh I was with him in Europe and he, I remember him telling me that uh he and I went uh boating at

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night on Lake Garda. I don't even know where it is. I just remember that and he convinced me that I was there and that we used to drink the water and he did this and that and I, I would say yes. And he got a great

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kick out of asked when people would come and say, Jimmy, tell them what we did in Europe. And then I tell them this fantasy that he had put into my head. So everybody was very amused because I wasn't even born. I mean, he wasn't even married

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at that time. My grandfather was not married and he said I was with him. You see, so this is the power of persuasion. I mean, that's uh that's just you, you, there's lots of good memories, but this is one that is kind of striking. So what

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language did you speak at home when you were growing up? Well, um so I went the first few years, of course, I didn't know any English. OK? And we spoke a language called Gujarati. You know how to spell it. Ok. So that was the language that

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I grew up in. And one of my aunts used to tutor me and, uh, in, in the language and reading and writing and all that. And, uh, then when my, my, when my, my maternal grandparents were somewhat of nationalists, you know, and they didn't, they had

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just got rid of, from my grandmother even spent time in jail. So, for protesting against the occupation by the British. Ok. Uh In fact, that's how she met my grandfather because he had come back from Europe and she was going around telling people that they should

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not wear foreign manufactured clothes because they take cotton and silk from India, make textiles and then export them back to India and make money that way. And uh textile mills and manufacturing by Indians in India was forbidden. OK. That's how the British got rich. So uh

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but, but they made uh what is called, which is a homespun fabric. It's very coarse but it's uh done with a hand loan. Ok. So my grandmother, when she was a teenager, I guess uh was going around telling people to, she was collecting clothes from people,

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all their uh UK manufactured clothing so that they could burn it and everybody should only wear Indian made as well. So that's how she met my grandfather. So he said, OK, but now I have nothing to wear. Yeah. OK, because all his clothes was from Europe.

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So, OK, anyway, but that's just a little family story. Uh you asked about languages. So then my parents decided that no uh against opposition from the grandparents, they decided that I should go to an English medium school. And that's how I began to learn English. And

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of course, in India, you may not know this. But uh India is the equivalent of Europe in terms of cultural diversity, language and religion and all that, every area has uh a different language, different cuisine, different culture, different form of dress, et cetera. You know, so

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when India became independent, they chose Hindi as the national language, but only about 30% of the people, it was a plurality, not a majority. So about 30% of the people spoke Hindi or variations thereof. And the other people didn't want to accept Hindi because it was

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completely different to them. So and they almost because of the British, almost everybody knew some English. So they started doing business in English and it has in fact become the de facto national language, not officially, but in practice, it has become the national language because all

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government business is done in two languages. And one of them is always English and the other is whatever the local language happens to be. So that's how when I went to school, there were people from all different backgrounds and they all spoke different languages and the

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only common language we had to communicate was English. That's how English actually became my first language. So um you mentioned that your grandmother was a nationalist. So did you receive any influence from her when you grew up? Well, she was not a rabid uh nationalist. OK,

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I mean, she was not something that happened in your daily life and uh we had become independent, she had achieved our objectives. And so everything was cool and so nobody really talked about it. I mean, some of what I'm telling you, I learned later, I didn't

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know any of that at that time. Um So how many siblings do you have? I have one younger brother, younger brother. And so what did each of your parents do for a living once they returned? Well, uh well, actually they were together from grade school onwards.

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Ok. They were like, I, I don't know whether it was kindergarten or the second grade or whatever it was, but they were together for a long time. They went to the same college. They both got the same degree which was in law. They both trained lawyers.

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Uh My mother practiced law for a couple of years, but then she quit and uh became a housewife and social worker. That's what she did. Volunteer, social worker. OK. She didn't do anything. Ok. And uh my father uh he never practiced law in a court which

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my mother did. Ok. He was uh uh taken up uh and given a job in a company, a shipping company, um, both passenger and freight, that cargo, which was not own. But one of my mother's uncles had an interest in it. Exactly. I don't know what

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exactly it was. Maybe he was the friends of the owner or something. So, they wanted educated people that were not very many at that time. So, you know, my father's degree was in, he had a B A and then he had an llB which is the

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Bachelor of Laws. They took him in and that's one of the reasons he got posted to, to London. So we had a lot of family people in that company. You know, I'm from both sides of my father's side and my mother's side, it was almost like

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a family business, even though it was a, officially a public company, it's called SIA Steamships, but it's no longer, it doesn't, it's not uh in business anymore. It was nationalized by the Indian government and then uh again be to. So that's what my father did. And

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after a few years, he had been there for about 10 or 12 years. I think it was in 1957. So about 10 years later, he, he left to join a different company and uh that was his second job and his last job. So he, he ultimately

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became president of that company and he retired as the president, you mentioned that you went to a very prestigious grade school and then well, I wouldn't say it was a prestigious grade school. I went to, in, in India. You don't have the system that we have

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here in the US. So, uh, all schools are K through 12. Ok. All of them. And they are called grade schools that they only go up to the sixth grade and then they are called, uh, or they're called kindergarten or they only have kindergarten, then they

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grade school and then they have high school. The high school doesn't mean it's only high school, it means up to high school. Ok. Well, they all start from the beginning. So I was in a Montessori uh uh kindergarten at, at, at the time that I was

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living with my grandparents and then I got transferred to this other school. Uh, it's called Bombay Scottish and it was run by Scottish missionaries. And, uh I have to say that the quality of the education was very good. I have to say that. Mhm. Did you

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enjoy any particular subjects? Yeah, I was kind of interested in everything. I, the only thing I didn't like was languages but I was good at math. I was physics, chemistry, geography, history, English, literature, art, all of them. And I, I did well in all of that

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we also had sports so I used to play table tennis. I played badminton. I was pretty good at badminton but, uh, not so good at soccer or cricket. Although I played a lot of cricket, but I'm not that good at it. So, um, so where did

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you go to college? Well, it's, uh, about 20 miles or 25 miles from Bombai and it was a different city at the time. But now it has been absorbed by, has become a megalopolis. It's uh, like 100 kilometers in all directions. You know, this is gigantic.

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You cannot leave Bombay almost. You sit in a train and for three hours you are still in Bombay. OK. Uh But it, it, it was a place called Powa. I, and it was built as a standalone college campus. It was, it was just forest and they,

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they built it on the side of a lake and it was beautiful. Have some photographs of that. If you are interested in looking at it, I've got it uh hung up on one of the walls in my bedroom. That would be great. You want to see

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it? Uh Maybe later after this recording. Yeah. Um So what did you major in college? I majored in chemical engineering, chemical engineering. Mhm. And uh why did you want to major in chemical engineering? Well, uh actually I did not want to go into engineering at all.

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I uh had uh a great interest in drawing and art and posters and things like that. So I wanted to go into commercial art and advertising. But my uh one of my aunts, my father's sister said she took a great interest in me. She was a

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spinster at that time. I should say she was a spinster. She was unmarried at the time. She got married later. Ok. But she got married a little bit late in life probably in her. I, I don't know exactly when, but I would say late thirties. So

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she took, and, and remember that she was relatively close in age to me also. So she kind of took me under her wing and I was like her son and she spend a lot of time and uh keeping track of my academic progress and everything else.

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Much more so than my own parents. You know, my father would show some interest or what are your grades and he look at that and they say all very good, but he didn't care about that. He was an avid sportsman and a very good one. I

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mean, that national level and, and multiple sports. So he was a boxer uh at the university level and uh he played badminton at a state and national level. And uh he also played cricket and he was also a tracker, uh track and field star, you know,

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in the sprint. So he did a lot of different things and so he all he wanted was for me to be a doctor. But uh he was very disappointed. So he'd take me out on the weekends. Come on, we gonna do this, we're gonna do that,

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but he would be very disappointed because I was quite frail as a child. And, uh, I didn't have the, I had good quick reflexes but I didn't have strength or stamina. Anyway. So my aunt was taking interest in my academic progress. She had a phd in

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biochemistry, in fact, and was a professor at the, uh, at the, the Bomber University. So, anyway, so she got mean tutored and this and that and said, no, you have to go into engineering. That's the future. That's what the country needs to be doing well and

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all that. And I was good at it. So, you know, not ahead. That's what happened. What did you do for recreation during college? Oh, the, my college years were brutal. I say it was uh a prestigious university but it was super tough and I just uh

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uh kind of scraped through and it was also very competitive, you know, at the time that there was an entrance exam, it was pure merit. There's no question of ability and all that if you didn't and it was virtually free, it was almost nothing. You know,

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I think that tuition was ₹25 uh per month and a rupee at that time was three and a ₹3.5 per dollar. So it was $7 a month. Ok. Thank God travel fare to go back and forth was more than less. You know, if you were living

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at home and you were, I, I was, it was all, it was compulsory residential, you could be living two miles away, but you still have to live in the town. Ok. Because that was the idea. And we had 35 plus hours a week for five years.

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Oh, my gosh. And this doesn't count homework or anything like that. So, there's not much time for anything else. So, you spent 35 hours in a classroom per week, per week? That's rigorous. Rigorous is right, seven hours a day, five days a week. So in the

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end we had to do, um, because India got involved in a war with Pakistan in the middle of this. So I was drafted and I had to do my military service while doing college. You didn't leave college during. So what was, but it was, it was,

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it was a, a special uh unit. I wouldn't call it a regiment but it was, uh, I, I can't remember exactly what it was but all these guys, they were all in one place. So they didn't have to worry about it. This is OK, we're going

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to create this. Uh I think in terms of numbers, they had about 600 people because they were only looking at a certain age group and I happen to fall in that age group. Ok. So it was for two years and uh uh after classes we reported

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for training, uh it was not every day. It was about uh 32 or three evenings a week and then on Saturdays. So that's what we did. So, there was no time for anything else. And what years of college was that? Well, I went from 64 to

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69 mid year to mid year. Ok, June to June to April or July. I mean, I, I don't remember the exact month but, uh, and that was the school year and, uh, we started this in 66 I think so. 66 67.5 of 68. It so happened

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that during my time they, it was supposed to be for two years. But then at the end of two years, they said, no, we're going to make it 2.5. So we were the only people who did 2.5 and after 2.5, they went back and said, no,

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it's two years. So we did 2.5. So, uh, during the, during the breaks, then we would be out, uh, um, on, uh, what did they call it? It was essentially a forged forced marsh. There's a, there's a certain name for it. So we'd all be in

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tents. Uh We'd be carrying our tents and we have to live off the land and we have to go from this place to that place. And, uh, you know, we have to do it without any money because the, uh, it was, it was the National Cadet

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call. That's what it was NCC National Cadet Corps and we were not the front line troops. We were not even the second line, we were the third. OK. So the way the Indian military was organized at the time, I don't know what it is. Now, you

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had the frontline troops, then you have what is called the territorial army, which was like comparable to the National Guard. So each state had a territorial army who were um, not off duty, but they, they, they had regular day jobs and then they were also angry,

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you know, it's like the national. So if the front line collapsed, then they are the next line of defense and if they collapsed and then us. Ok. So, uh, when did you come to the US? 1969? So it was September, August, September of 1969 August or

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September. And, uh, what motivated you to come here? Well, again, it was my aunt who I then have got married but, uh, she didn't have Children and so she continued to be interested. Mhm. Much more so than all the others. I mean, none of the rest,

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you know, because I was her, like her kid and she said, uh, you know, you should, uh, go and get an advanced degree and then gain some experience and come back. And so that's what my plan was. But, uh, it's at a very vulnerable age, you

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know, when young men are in their twenties, uh they get married to whoever happens to be around. Not exactly. But, uh, something like that. And so that's what happened. My first wife was an American and then I, of course we stayed and we had Children. Ultimately,

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we got divorced but, you know, we were married for 22 years. So, what year did you get married in Cincinnati, Ohio? And, uh, when was it, when in July 2? Um, 1972? Yeah. And this was while you were getting your master's degree? No, no, I, I

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had already got my master's degree. I mean, I was dating my now ex-wife but, uh, we didn't get married till after I got, I graduated but she was an undergraduate. She had not yet graduated. So, for, she had two more years to go and so she

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finished college while we were married and then after she finished college, then she worked for, 06 months or so. And then she got pregnant and we, then she became a full time housewife and mother. So, you were in the same school in the same year? You

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went to the same university? The University of Cincinnati. Yes. I was in grad school. She was an undergraduate. What was it like adjusting to life in Cincinnati? Other than the weather, no investment. I spoke the language. I knew the material. Uh, it was a cake walk

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because we only had, what, 12 or 15 hours, something like that of class. And I already knew all this stuff. So I was taking 18 hours and things like that because, uh, I mean, that's what I mean, that, you know what's taught in graduate school here.

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I mean, ok, there will be a little bit here and there, it was more a consolidation and refresher rather than learning new from me. Um, and at that time, was it a common thing for college students to go abroad and study abroad? Well, we had 75

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people in my graduating class and undergraduate and 10 of us came to the US. So it's not unheard of. It depends on what you find common. Ok. And uh were you financially supported by your parents? I was uh I mean, my father was ready to do

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that and we have got the funding approval to transfer the money because we had export and currency controls at the time. But uh it was approved. However, uh after I got here very soon after I got here, I uh did uh getting scholarship. So uh it

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was not, it was just a tuition waiver, it was not a uh and then I didn't really want to be a depending on my parents. It was, it was nice to have the, the, the cushion there in case something went wrong. But I began to work

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at mcdonald's because it was easy. I mean, the class work was easy. So I had all this time. So I work at mcdonald's I flip burgers and the shakes and the, the cash register and all that. And they love me because, uh, you know, I was

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able to handle the cash register with no problem. Whereas most of the people, you know, would struggle with it with that arithmetic. Yeah. I mean, they placed their order. I already knew what the total was before I could punch it in and if it didn't match

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what was in my head, then I knew I had done something wrong. Ok. So did they ever promote you? No, I wasn't interested in promotion. This was, but at that time I was earning a dollar 10 per hour and, uh, that was good money. You know,

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it's like getting 15 or $20 and purchasing power. Uh, did they, was that above minimum wage? No, that was minimum wage. Who is that? Is that Frankie? That's my grandson. The originally was rescued by one of my sons who lives here in Houston and then he

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didn't want to continue to take care of him. So I inherited him. That's very cute. Ok. He, he speaks, you know, he, he's learned a few things so when he wants to eat, he'll make us sound like which means 1 ft 1 ft. That, did you

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hear that? That's it. He heard me say it. So now he, that's cute. And that's because when he would come and meow with me, I would say, what do you want? What do you want, you want to be petted? And I pet him and he continues.

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I said, what do you want food? You want food? And then he said, oh, food. And so then I feed him. So now he's learned how to, he says want food when he wants food. Well, he's a fat cat. He is overweight. He's, he's eating too

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much. Um, yeah. So let's go back to your college life. Um, so why did you choose that specific school? Well, um, we went to various different places. Ok. And it's a very tough school to get into, first of all. And it, it was reputed it had,

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it's, it's, uh, like Howard and a 90 in one. And I didn't know if I would get in or not. So I enrolled at two other colleges in India. The system is a bit different. You have the university and within the university you have colleges which

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are all privately owned. Not all of them are private, but many of them are private. Some are in government owned, but the university is run by the state. So this is Bombay University. So all the colleges belong to Bombay University. But certain colleges, their students do

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very well and certain colleges they don't do very well. Ok. So Elphinston was the one that my father and mother both went to. So I applied there and in fact, I began attending there until I was informed that IIT had accepted me. And then there was

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Saint Xavier was another missionary school run by a college run by missing missionaries. And they were reputed to they, they had good results. So did elephants when they were the two competing top colleges in in the city from Bombay University. But uh Xavier was supposed to

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be the play school where you went to have a good time with the opposite sex. And uh Elston was more bookish. But, uh, so I got admitted to both of them and I actually attended both of them for a short time because I paid fees. I

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bought, you know, I didn't know which one I would like. So I went to, for one of the two, I can't remember. And, uh, it was very dark. I couldn't see the blackboard. We had blackboards in those days and they wrote with L and so I,

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I couldn't read anything. So, uh, it was no good and it was very dark and I didn't like it. So I then went over to Zaia after about a week or so or two. I went to Xavier as I started attending there. And, uh, then I

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was called for an interview by IIT and they gave me admission. So I left and moved back to, to IIT. Uh, what about University of Cincinnati? Well, there again, I applied to a range of schools because I didn't know what level I would, I didn't know

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what my level would be so I applied to MIT, I applied to uh and I applied, those are the more prestigious ones. Uh I also, and then I said, OK, I will go for mid level. So I applied to uh University of Cincinnati in uh Oklahoma

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State because for chemical engineering, those are really good. I mean, the others are prestigious but they are more research paper and things like that. OK. Whereas Cincinnati, if you look at the, the graduates from Cincinnati, they actually earn more when they get out of college than

00:38:14.290 - 00:38:36.320

the guys from MIT. Now I'm, I'm not talking, I'm talking engineering. Ok. I'm not talking about law or finance. So, oh, he likes you. OK. Are you a cat person? You have cats? No, I don't, I never have a pet anyways. So, where were we? Uh,

00:38:36.330 - 00:38:53.199

so, uh, you know, I, uh, the first place that accepted me and I also applied to University of Florida because I was told that's a fun place to go to. And, uh, so I said, OK, fine, that's enough, you know, I should find something better. And

00:38:53.659 - 00:39:11.219

basically the dealers, I mean, Cincinnati accepted me almost immediately. So I said, well, hell, I'll just take it, you know, I don't want to wait and maybe they withdraw the acceptance or something like that. And I suppose once you accept it, you have to tell the

00:39:11.229 - 00:39:32.969

other people are accepted. So that was it. I did get a letter from, I think it was Berkeley, University of California saying, send us some more information or do an essay or some such thing. I forget about that. I just said I've already accepted. So, you

00:39:32.979 - 00:40:13.570

know, we forget it. So that's how I came to Cincinnati. And how do you spell Elphinston? Yeah. Ph Instone. You would pronounce it as El Fin Stone. But it's, it, that's phonetic, but it's actually elephant and is how it's pronounced. So what did

00:40:13.580 - 00:40:41.969

you do in your free time when you were getting your master's degree? Chest woman? And that, that was how you met your wife or ex wife? Sorry. Ok. So, so would you mind sharing the story of how you met her anyway, whatever it is. But that's

00:40:41.979 - 00:41:07.179

what men and women do when they are single and they're in that age group. So, did you, were you interested in participating in any extracurriculars provided by the university? Uh Well, I actually the, well, of course, I played tennis. So I did that but I mean,

00:41:07.189 - 00:41:29.389

that was not my main activity. The main activity was running after girls. Ok. Uh But when I wasn't doing that, I was either working at my side job. I mean that, that mcdonald's was the first job that I subsequently got another one which was a little

00:41:29.399 - 00:41:51.909

better paying and it was more technical. I was a lab technician uh for a company called M and M Metals. Uh And so, you know, it was pretty self sufficient. And from that I was, I made enough money to be able to buy a car and

00:41:51.919 - 00:42:16.679

that's how I was able to. Again, they can, because without a car in the US you cannot date. That was the main adjustment. If, if I had the adjustment of the deck, I don't have a car. I can't be anybody. So, at that age, um, drinking

00:42:16.689 - 00:42:36.179

age was 18. Well, I was, well over 18 by then I was 21 when I came. But the younger women, I have no idea. I don't know what the drinking age was. So, what did you do when pursuing women? Where did you? Well, I didn't go

00:42:36.189 - 00:42:56.830

to box. That was never me. Ok. No, I would meet them at other social events, at parties, at friends places. Uh, there was party time, you know, every week there would be a party somewhere or the other, uh, we'd be going out on picnics and, uh,

00:42:56.840 - 00:43:16.840

you know, in groups. So it was more like group dating where you kind of got to know people, um, movies. I was active in the Indian Association from almost the beginning. And, uh, we used to organize, uh, uh, Indian Movies. Uh, once a month. I think

00:43:16.850 - 00:43:34.189

it was at the university. We use the university facilities for that. We created a directory. We were the first ones to do all, all these things, by the way, you know, anywhere in the US because there were only very, very few people at that time. So

00:43:35.020 - 00:43:55.510

we pioneered some of these things. We had the, the first directory of Indian students. Uh and the local community was put out by the University of Cincinnati Indian Association. I mean, others may have done it. I mean, other groups. But among the Indian community, we were

00:43:55.520 - 00:44:21.510

the first in the US to do it. And uh then you know what I mean? I was active, that was actually my main other activity. And I was a member of the International Students Association, which was a venue for meeting Americans and getting to know the

00:44:21.520 - 00:44:43.989

local people, the university had a system of host families as well. So each foreign student, not just Indian, all foreign students would be assigned a host family with the, the, the idea that the host family would help the individual integrate into American society. But after the

00:44:44.000 - 00:45:01.699

second meeting, I remember my host family, the Charles and Judy Spear, that was their name. And they said they will be telling me, OK, this is this and this is this and showing me all this stuff. And I said, yeah, OK. And they say, uh uh

00:45:01.709 - 00:45:21.120

I, I forget exactly what he said. He says, uh uh you, you don't seem to be too interested or impressed or whatever it is. I said, well, I'm not because that's how it is in India too. I mean, you know, I mean, I don't know all

00:45:21.129 - 00:45:43.679

these things. So he says, well, then hell, you are already Americanized. I don't need to Americanize you and, and the music, I mean, while I was in college, one of my good college friends introduced me to jazz and I loved it and I, I never really

00:45:43.689 - 00:46:04.989

liked Indian music. OK. I was never into that. So, uh that's the music I like and I still like it today. I have a collection of about 1000 C Ds here if you're interested in jazz, by the way. OK, after the interview is over. So, so

00:46:05.000 - 00:46:27.250

that's what he said. And so I would go to their house for Thanksgiving and you know, I got them all their Children and I saw the serious side of American life through them by the way, because of their Children who are, they were good people. Mm

00:46:28.290 - 00:46:50.439

I would say almost upper middle class today. They would be, you might say middle class. OK. But they lived quite well. And uh but the Children were a mess. Do you mind elaborating? Well, it's not my story. I don't think I should tell you about someone

00:46:50.449 - 00:47:14.320

else's but happened. Let's just say that uh they were in need of rehab. Did it affect you in any way? Well, it does open my eyes. That's the only thing. And it made me feel sorry for them that here are people who are well off. The

00:47:14.330 - 00:47:45.820

Children have all the privileges that life can afford and yet they are throwing away their lights. Did you ever miss home? Um, well, not really because, uh, I was in frequent contact with my parents. Uh, and to be honest, uh, India has got much worse, steadily,

00:47:45.830 - 00:48:01.699

steadily, worse at different rates, but always on a down trend, it may be going down slowly or it may be going down fast and slow, but it's always going down in terms of quality of life and I have no intention or desire to go and live

00:48:01.709 - 00:48:19.699

there. It's a horrible place. It's, it's horrible because the people are corrupt. They are morally bankrupt. It was not like that when I was growing up, it was a different place. But in the sixties, by the time I had entered college, we could see. And, you

00:48:19.709 - 00:48:45.810

know, my family were all actually quite, uh what shall I say? Uh They are part of the ruling class, let's say, II, I don't want it to sound boastful because I don't intend that. But my, uh, one of my mother's uncles, the guy who was uh

00:48:45.889 - 00:49:10.030

the shipping guy, he was extremely wealthy and uh, but he used it to support other people more than, you know, live ostentatiously. And uh when uh uh India became independent, uh he had been invited to join the cabinet because he was, he was a very prominent

00:49:10.040 - 00:49:26.209

personality. Ok. And he fought the Brits and uh not with weapons but commercially legally. And, you know, No, we have to start this company. That's I think how he got involved in it because he fought for the right of India to start its own shipping company,

00:49:26.590 - 00:49:46.260

et cetera. So he had done that kind of thing. So he was very well known and highly respected. He was always traveling abroad, going to conferences Japan here there and bring back to for me and things like that. So, um uh what, what did we start

00:49:46.270 - 00:50:10.310

up? What did you ask me? I was giving you a background background for the answer to your question. Oh Miss home. Oh yeah, so, so we lived very well. Ok, so we were not, we didn't live the life that you see on television. Let's say we

00:50:10.320 - 00:50:31.760

live the life that you see in the Bollywood movies if you. So it was not that in, in fact, to me, my life today is worse than it was when I was a child. Ok, I have come down in the world but I was saying that

00:50:31.770 - 00:50:46.780

India has gone down. So we were there was always all these politicians and ministers and uh you know, cabinet members and all that who were at the house and they would be talking about all these things, ok? And they would be bemoaning the fact that uh

00:50:46.790 - 00:51:03.969

oh things are going down. Look at the this in the sixties. OK. So, so at that time, things were already starting to go bad and I remember my aunt who is not my aunt, my mother's aunt saying, I don't think in the last we're gonna have

00:51:03.979 - 00:51:25.909

a revolution within 10 years, this cannot continue and things like that, but it has continued and there's been no revolution. OK. But I mean, so, so, so it's so bad that it's actually really traumatic for me to go back and see how things are today, even

00:51:25.919 - 00:51:48.270

among the affluent people in my extended family who, you know, led a very good life and look at what's happened to them. Now, did any of your family follow you? My brother did. And uh some of my cousins have, yes, but many years later they didn't

00:51:48.280 - 00:52:04.030

actually follow me. But the fact that I was here and already established, I'm like 20 years older than some of them. Ok. The fact that I was here was established gave them the confidence. Hey, so one of my aunts would say, ok, my son is coming

00:52:04.040 - 00:52:18.909

or my daughter is coming, take care of her, you know, and that kind of stuff. So even though they were not in the same town, the fact that I was in the country and keeping tabs on them and all that, you know, they felt ok, there's

00:52:18.919 - 00:52:52.270

somebody here to look after them. Were there any other parties in your Indian Student Association in Cincinnati? Uh, yes, they were. Um, I'm thinking, I think, uh what to three, there were five of us. Yeah. So one of them refused to be a member and, uh,

00:52:52.719 - 00:53:20.530

the other three and myself were, was, yes. Did you ever function as a subset of students? Yes, we did. Uh, because, um, yeah, I mean, the Indian Student Association had like, maybe 100 and 50 members altogether but that included students and non students. Ok. For former

00:53:20.629 - 00:53:36.810

graduates or even non graduates of Cincinnati, you know, are allowed to be members. I got to keep track of the time because about 12 30 I have to leave to go somewhere for a meeting. Ok. Um, anyway, uh it's only 11 o'clock. So we only got

00:53:36.820 - 00:53:59.949

check packed up. Uh, but for the parties, yeah, we used to have them over to our house. Uh, of course, I was, I continued this after I had graduated. Remember that was only for two years. Ok. So I continued to be active in it as a

00:53:59.959 - 00:54:21.689

board member and to, you know, advise and fill in and then we set up a house for incoming students who didn't have a place to stay. So they would stay at this place. And uh then once they found their own place, then, so for the first

00:54:21.699 - 00:54:38.199

month, they didn't have to pay any rent. And then if they wanted to continue staying after that, they had to pay rent in the house because of course, the association had to pay for it. Ok. And then at the end of the year, then they had

00:54:38.209 - 00:54:58.389

to leave and make room for the next batch. So then we set up that system. Ok. So, uh what did you do after graduation? Well, I had a job offer. I had actually three job offers. I had one in California, which I was kind of tempted

00:54:58.399 - 00:55:18.229

to take and I had two in Cincinnati. One was in environmental and one was actually in the field that I wanted to be in, which is process design. Uh, the other two jobs paid more. Uh, but California was out because my wife was attending school and

00:55:18.239 - 00:55:38.050

I didn't want her to start all over. So it had to be Cincinnati. And, uh, the, uh I took the job that I thought I would enjoy over the one that I, uh, that paid more, which I thought probably I wouldn't enjoy. And I think that

00:55:38.060 - 00:55:54.739

was a good decision because within six months of joining that company, they said, you know, here was a race for you and I was already at the end of my first year making more than what I would have had. I joined the other company got a

00:55:54.750 - 00:56:20.429

huge loan of about 50%. So, how long did you stay there? I stayed there for seven years. And during that time you, did you begin your family? Yes. So your 1st, 1st 2 Children were born while I was in Cincinnati. Then my daughter was born in

00:56:20.439 - 00:56:44.080

Florida after I left and moved to Florida. After Cincinnati area worked for seven years, I was actually in Cincinnati for 10 years. After, uh, uh, finishing my master's, I took a job, I was actually working on my, so I continued to work on the doctorate while

00:56:44.090 - 00:57:04.270

I was, while I had a full time job, but then became too much. So I passed all the comprehensive exam, what they call and I started my dissertation and did all that. And so I go to work during the day and then go home and have

00:57:04.280 - 00:57:32.050

dinner and then I'll go to, uh, the university and sit in the computer room and run the punch card programs and do all that stuff and come back home at two o'clock and then go back to work at eight. Wow. Yes. What, so this was ok

00:57:32.060 - 00:57:54.520

with your family. Uh, well, it really wasn't. But, uh, what can I say? You know, it wasn't for that long. It was only for about a year. II, I finished my course work first. Yeah. First year, first year I did do dissertation. I did only course

00:57:54.530 - 00:58:10.969

works. I would go from, uh, from work. I'd go to my evening classes because I had already taken a lot of the courses. So I didn't have very much more to do. Ok. So I could take evening classes two or three per week. And that was,

00:58:11.149 - 00:58:31.860

you know, as I said, it was fairly easy. So I just had to attend and, uh, by that time, I already knew most of the professors. So, as long as I passed the exam it was ok. And then, and then the dissertation began after the third

00:58:31.870 - 00:58:59.050

year after I had pass the, the, the, the qualifying exams for the doctorate. And that's when the night stuff began and that was not ok. And then I, ultimately, I ended up giving it up. How did you end up in Florida? Well, um, the place that

00:58:59.060 - 00:59:18.040

I worked, uh, it was called Rael Kason Associates. If you want to write it down, if you're not, that's ok too. The company still exists. And it was really an extremely well managed company. And I was very fortunate to have had that as my first experience,

00:59:18.780 - 00:59:34.489

but I didn't know that other companies are poorly managed. I thought this is how it is and uh, it, it ran itself, the company ran itself and the reason is that, uh, everybody had a stake in it and the way it was designed was you got

00:59:34.500 - 00:59:55.979

a base salary, which was a little bit less than the market rate. Ok. But you never got fired unless you did something bad. Ok? Because I mean, unless you didn't perform or you did something unethical. So in lean years, you still got your face, you didn't

00:59:55.989 - 01:00:16.610

get fired. And when things were good, there was a profit pool which was divided into two pieces. One is for the shareholders, it was a partnership for the partners in proportion to the partnership interest and one for the non partners. And it was 50 50. So

01:00:16.620 - 01:00:32.750

it was very, I, I'm not sure it was 50 50. I think it was. And I think the, all, all the people who worked in the company, including the secretaries and the cleaning staff and everybody shared in that other pool. Ok. So I, I think it

01:00:32.760 - 01:00:49.020

was 50 50. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it was, if it was not 50 50 it was close to it. And so whatever profits were made were then divided among all the people generally in proportion to their base salary, but not all base.

01:00:49.030 - 01:01:08.189

Some people who did an extra good job would get a little extra. OK? So we were all collaborating because if it's good, it's not good for me unless it's also good for you, you know, we have to work together. So we were competing with people outside

01:01:08.199 - 01:01:38.620

the company, but we were collaborating within the company. So that's how it goes. That's a good organization. Superb, brilliant, brilliant. And if the US adopted that system generally, we wouldn't have all these economic downturns and shit like that. So what led you here? Well, so I

01:01:38.629 - 01:01:54.760

moved first from cats and associates that that was, I was getting stale. I was doing the same thing again and again, and I wanted to have a broader experience and I got a job offer from an engineering company that uh was good. And I wanted to

01:01:54.770 - 01:02:08.629

have a different experience and I actually had two jobs. I had one in Brazil and one in Florida. My wife didn't want to move to Brazil. I really wanted to go there and experience that, but she didn't want to do it. So we said, all right,

01:02:08.639 - 01:02:28.840

we've got cool. And men, let's go to Florida. So we went to Florida and I did very well there. I became a vice president of the company, but there was some, I was there for five years, 79 to 84. Yeah. And uh there was some shenanigans

01:02:28.850 - 01:02:50.780

going on financially and uh it couldn't happen without my knowledge because of the position I had. So a couple of the other guys including my, not my boss, but he sent somebody who was at my level to. So this was a very large company, ok, with

01:02:50.790 - 01:03:07.570

about 1400 people. So I was not a vice president, I was an assistant vice president. So my boss was the vice president. And then over that as an executive vice president at the corporate level and the president and the chairman and all of that. So one

01:03:07.580 - 01:03:20.270

of the other guys was at my level comes to me and says, look, we are working so hard and we're making all this money for the company. And uh do you think we are getting a fair share? So I said, well, I'm pretty happy. I mean,

01:03:20.280 - 01:03:38.030

I'm, I'm ok. So he said, well, we got this project and it's a bit, there's a lot of money in it. And, uh, you know, he basically was saying, making a pitch to siphon some money away. And I said, no, that's going to compromise the performance

01:03:38.040 - 01:03:54.729

of the plant. We're building the plant, we're going to get a lawsuit. We can't buy cheap equipment and we specify more expensive stuff, you know. So we had the budget and we said, well, nobody is going to know. And I said, no, so they continued to

01:03:54.739 - 01:04:15.080

do this. I was not charge of construction. I was an engineering. This guy was a construction manager. So I had a bit of a uh fit. And in a foolish moment, I called the executive VP who is the boss of my boss. And I said, hey,

01:04:15.090 - 01:04:33.820

you know, this is what's going on and da da, da, da da and the next thing I know that I got from. So I realized that the executive VP world must have been in order to. So then I was in business for myself for a short

01:04:33.830 - 01:04:53.250

time. That was pretty brutal because I had a bad habit of spending everything I made because I was moving up and everything looked good. I knew the chairman and the principal stockholder, his name is on the company, you know, and we were on good terms. So

01:04:53.260 - 01:05:21.199

I felt secure but you are not secure. So I ended up racking people's yards and doing all that for a few months. Ok. So just to, to cut back on the spending and whatnot. But ultimately I started restarted a consulting business. I mean, II, I, some

01:05:21.209 - 01:05:41.659

of the, but what happened is that the company found it, ok, after I left within, uh, six months and the, the business just went down and they closed down the office. So everybody got fired. Uh Well, a couple of people got transferred somewhere else, but basically

01:05:41.669 - 01:05:53.860

it closed down. So I picked up some of the smaller clients because I couldn't do the big work. I didn't have that kind of stuff, but whatever small consulting projects there were, and I hired a couple of people and we were working out of my house

01:05:55.229 - 01:06:15.459

and then that business was actually not doing very well because we were specialized in a field that was getting mature. So I moved to something else which is process optimization. I got into that. But basically, since then I've been self employed, essentially self employed. Most of

01:06:15.469 - 01:06:29.409

the time there have been gaps when a particular client would say we would like you to work for us full time. And I, I've done that. Uh but I've always maintained, I've said, ok, as long as I'm not competing with you, I want to continue to

01:06:29.419 - 01:06:48.229

do the consulting to keep my hand in it and I would write articles and uh present papers at conferences and all that and maintain the network of contacts. So that's what I've been doing since 1984. Thumbs are, that's why I have the time to sit with

01:06:48.239 - 01:07:08.489

you today. So you started your own consulting company in Houston. I started in Florida in Florida. And then you moved to Houston. What brought you here? Well, it was one of the clients. They said we'd like you to help us start up an office first in

01:07:08.500 - 01:07:27.270

California. So I went to California and help them start up, uh, their office from 89 to 90. Then I came back to Florida and then in 1991 they wanted to start an office here in Houston, that one became after one year that was self supporting. So

01:07:28.010 - 01:07:49.909

that was fine. And then, so the guy who was running, it was a friend of mine anyway. And, uh, I didn't want to live in California. I can't afford to live like a rat shack, you know, there. So, so you moved to Houston? So then I

01:07:49.919 - 01:08:04.560

know I even moved back to Florida. And then they said, well, we'd like you to go to Houston. So I moved to Houston and when I was here, my wife divorced me. That's how I got divorced because I was commuting. I wasn't actually living there. I

01:08:04.570 - 01:08:16.350

was in a, in an apartment, but I was spending a lot of time and I would go back for every two weeks, I'd go back for four days. I would take, I work through the weekend on one weekend and take two days off the next weekend

01:08:16.359 - 01:08:44.159

additional. So I did that for about a year and then she decided that she didn't want to, you know, remain married to me. That's what happened. So then I just stayed and now she wants to get married again. But, and now, I don't know. Did you

01:08:44.429 - 01:09:12.240

raise your Children? So, restaurant uh two of them. Yes. The youngest. No. Well, no, the older and the youngest, the actually by the time at the time of the divorce, which happened in 94 my uh my older one had had his initiation, but the second one

01:09:12.250 - 01:09:33.069

had not and my daughter was too young anyway, so we didn't do that. And then I think he fell under his mother's influence. And so he never wanted to be or as, but my daughter changed her mind. She was also under her mother's influence. Um But

01:09:33.080 - 01:09:58.009

then she realized the, she kind of opened her eyes after some time. And so she became a so to the oldest and youngest and the oldest and youngest have had their la Yes. You know about that. Ok. Yes, the initiation is where the child says, yes,

01:09:58.020 - 01:10:29.209

it can be any age. You could be 85 and have an adult. Ok? But usually it's done when you are about somewhere between eight and 12. So is that ceremony required to become Zan. It's more of a tradition than a requirement of the religion. Hm. Did

01:10:29.220 - 01:10:50.680

you ever speak Gujarati to them? A few words here and there? Yeah. I mean, they understand some things they can pick up the gist of a conversation but I, I don't really speak to them in future. I think they know a few words. Then. Did you

01:10:50.689 - 01:11:08.189

ever travel with your family to return to India? Yeah. They, they've all been there and not just for 10 days. I mean, they've lived there for about a month or so and they know all the family and they sometimes go on their own to visit them.

01:11:08.200 - 01:11:34.629

Also. My older son just went to India with his wife, um, in January. You know, then they went there for about three or four weeks. Then, I mean, they, they know they know everybody. I mean, they are, they're integrated. Now. How have you seen India changing?

01:11:35.129 - 01:11:57.220

How do I see it changing? Yeah. Do you see any changes? Of course, I do. They're all bad, mostly bad. The bad woman. Well, the good aspects, everything, everything, it all stems from the same thing. You see that one of the basic tenets of rationalism is

01:11:57.629 - 01:12:15.169

good thoughts, good words, good deeds. In that order, you cannot do a good deed unless you speak good words, you cannot speak good words unless you have good thoughts. So everything starts with good thoughts, your morality, your values and if you lose that, not lose that.

01:12:15.180 - 01:12:36.390

But if you invite or accept, uh, evil values then you will do evil things with fewer. Think it's ok to lie under certain certain circumstances, then you'll find more and more circumstances where it's appropriate for you to lie and to cheat and to kill and do

01:12:36.399 - 01:12:55.549

all that, you know, you think? Yeah, it's ok. It's a lot and people go on that path, even if they are born into this religion, they do that. Not everybody is good just because they came to be the raster. Did I answer a question? I don't

01:12:55.560 - 01:13:35.479

think so. I, I had a question going back a little bit which was um you intermarried as intermarriage was new or newly being accepted. Even in the United States, inter marriage has always been part of human history. A OK. Not 1000 years, not 2000, but 100,000

01:13:36.410 - 01:13:55.830

since the beginning, since before recorded history. OK? If you look at the genetic history of policies and this is something, you know, I'm aware of being a sort of a scientist, engineer, I make my decisions and come to conclusions based on evidence and logic, not on

01:13:55.890 - 01:14:16.470

emotion and you know, propaganda. So the policies of India today, they like to claim that they are pure and all this stuff. They are not OK. If you look at their mitochondria and you look at the genetic makeup, they are closer to Gujarat than they are

01:14:16.479 - 01:14:44.879

to Iranis today. Did you know that? Would you like some literature on that? Ok. Anyway, it's a fact. Ok, that means that there's no such thing as purity. There's no racial purity at all. Yeah. And, uh, so, I mean, my father married, my mother was not

01:14:44.890 - 01:15:05.779

born in Parsi. Ok, intermarriage has been a fact of life, particularly in India. Despite what, all the, it's just that most of the people are Hindus, 85% are Hindus. So mostly they marry each other. But all the minorities, the incidence of intermarriage and the minorities is

01:15:05.790 - 01:15:24.359

far greater because there's fewer of them. So they interact more with the Hindu. You know what I'm saying? If I was suddenly transported into China, I would probably marry a Chinese girl. If I were at the right age, you might have been dating me if I

01:15:24.370 - 01:15:46.819

was 15 years younger, not 15, you know, whatever. Because I was wondering, you said that your family had traveled to India many times. But it from my understanding, your wife would not have been able to enter the fire temple. That is true. That is true. Yes.

01:15:47.439 - 01:16:15.759

Yes. Yes. And that's changing, you know, the fire temples that we are establishing here in the US, we are doing away with these restrictions. The first one in the US is going to be here. Yes. Um One of the, there's a founding group, I was one

01:16:15.770 - 01:16:32.109

of the founders of the Zora Center here. If you go there, you'll see my name on the Black there. I mean, one of them, not the main one but still. And similarly for all the other activities, the significant things, I mean, I don't do the day

01:16:32.120 - 01:16:59.540

to day stuff. I do more of the long term vision kind of stuff. So you're very supportive of an open temple here because that's not, are an ethnic group. Zora is a religion, they're two different things like saying Chinese or Belgian or you know, Iran or

01:16:59.549 - 01:17:26.520

whatever. And the rest is like saying Christian or Jewish or Muslim. And, and you know, there's been intermarriage in my family on both sides, the Hindu side as well as the uh side. One of my cousins sisters is married to Bengali, you know, and so there's

01:17:26.529 - 01:17:50.319

many such uh instances. So there's someone married, one of my cousins is married to a Muslim, ok. Parsi guy, married to a Muslim girl, married to a Bengali Hindu. I was married to uh a Christian and then to a party lady subsequently, they said, oh, you

01:17:50.330 - 01:18:12.129

know, look, your American wife divorced you a mistake, get married to a good party girl and all this. And I did that and she turned out to be absolutely horrible. She was very materialistic, very selfish and exactly the kind of person and, and very manipulative and

01:18:12.140 - 01:18:44.580

uh yeah, if I really made a big mistake in my life, it was marrying her. Ok. So I'm divorced from her also now. But at high cost, what accomplishments in your life are you most proud of accomplishment? Right? I would say my, the thing I'm most

01:18:44.589 - 01:19:19.080

satisfied by that I feel good about is that my Children have done that. Well, that's the number one thing they are happy. They are successful, not necessarily rich, they're successful in the sense that they have found what they want in life and they are doing. Ok.

01:19:20.129 - 01:19:46.419

So that's what I'm most proud of. And um fortunate that I've been able to uh you know, acquire and enough uh wealth. I hate to say this but to look after them, if I'm not around, ok, I mean, there's enough, they, all of them have a

01:19:46.430 - 01:20:04.399

cushion so they can go out and do crazy things that gives them the freedom to do something and know that there's a safety net and that's what I've done and I'm very proud of that. It's not in my control, you know what I mean? It's in

01:20:04.410 - 01:20:26.169

their name, but it's in, in a legal system where they cannot spend it unless uh under certain circumstances. Ok. So it just accumulates and uh you know, by the time they get access to it at the age of 60 then of course you don't want, then

01:20:26.180 - 01:20:51.870

you might as well spend it, you know, they will be well off. They don't have to rely on social security. So what do your Children do. Now. My oldest son is a, um, he, he's still with the US Navy. He's a commander but he's not active

01:20:51.879 - 01:21:11.870

duty. He is sort of in the Reserves and he's assigned to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission as a safety inspector for nuclear power plants. And your other Children. He lives in the Davos area now. He just moved there. My second son, he is single. My first son

01:21:11.879 - 01:21:39.140

is married, I'm going to have a grandson or a grandchild soon, I should say. Um second one is single. He is a chemical engineer by a degree uh but a disc jockey by interest and he does it. Uh he, he's interested in all this uh avant

01:21:39.649 - 01:22:00.959

garde music, which I don't, his house is full of uh electronics gear and his clothes are on the floor. You can't walk into his place. Ok, because you have a step in between all the soil clothes. But anyway, that's what he likes to do. So he's

01:22:00.970 - 01:22:18.959

happy. He does have a day job as a chemical engineer. He works for Siemens uh oil and gas and machine and he's a smart guy and he's good at what he does. He just doesn't enjoy it, but he enjoys the DJ stuff and he's a composer

01:22:18.970 - 01:22:38.259

and he does all this kind of stuff. So he's had, ok. My daughter is, she has a B A in fine arts and photography actually. And she worked for several years in New York. Uh, with, uh, Christy's, you may have heard of them. They are in

01:22:38.270 - 01:23:00.259

auction house. Have you heard of that? Have you heard of Sotheby's? Ok. They are. Sothebys is British and Chris is in, uh, American. They're the, basically the same. They, they are the two leading auction houses in the world. So she worked there and then, uh, after

01:23:00.270 - 01:23:24.879

a while she, uh, for a variety of reasons, she decided to move to, uh Houston and, uh, he lived with me until about six months ago. Uh, and, uh, that was great. I loved it but, you know, it's time for her to have her own life.

01:23:24.890 - 01:23:44.399

It's too comfortable, you know, staying at home. So he kicked her out. I didn't kick, kick her out. I encouraged her to move out when she found the right situation. I said when you find this situation, then you're ready to move out and see it. Yeah,

01:23:45.290 - 01:24:09.540

she's, uh uh actually I wouldn't say officially engaged, but, uh at least, uh unofficially engaged to a guy from who happens to be a chemical engineer, like her brother and her father and her, one of her uncles, the Bengali guy who was married to my cousin.

01:24:09.970 - 01:24:34.399

We were all careful engineers for some reason anyway. Uh And uh, so they have set up home and, uh, he was living in an apartment and he realized that uh he needs to get a house to get to move in with him. So they are a

01:24:34.410 - 01:24:54.890

little bit spoiling my Children. So that's what happened. So that was kind of a, an indication, a commitment that yes, he's going to do this for her. So that sounds good. So she's with him right now. He's from South Africa, by the way. So we have

01:24:54.899 - 01:25:25.580

intermarriage on top of intermarriage generations. Every generation is intermarried. My son is married to a Peruvian girl who herself is half Chinese, half Peruvian. It. Wow, that's amazing. So you mentioned you did a lot of traveling. Yes, mostly for my work. But I also have family

01:25:25.589 - 01:25:51.700

uh in the UK mostly and some in Canada and of course the rest in uh India. Um but that's not where I did all my traveling. I've been to something like 45 different countries. Do you have any favorites? Yes, I do. I, I uh it depends

01:25:51.709 - 01:26:15.490

on what favorite for, what favorite for enjoying the life for vacation is England. But that's because I have so many family members that I just enjoy. And the best place for living is actually Saudi Arabia. The one that gets all the bad press here in our

01:26:16.229 - 01:26:37.680

uh Deviant Press. I have to agree. Out press is full of propaganda. It's completely misportrayed the rest of the world and the US, by the way, I, I don't know if you, you felt that but the part of the brainwashing that goes on. Well, technically speaking,

01:26:37.770 - 01:27:02.379

the US and Saudi Arabia are political allies. Yes. Disregarding the press. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And military allies. Ok. But, uh, life there is very good, better than us. That's why you don't see Saudis immigrating here. You see people from

01:27:02.390 - 01:27:23.390

India, you see people from Guatemala and Mexico and even in Europe. Do you see any Saudis immigrating? No, I'm not really privy to. No, no, no. I mean, you look around the students who come from Saudi Arabia, they all go back. Nobody stays here. They don't

01:27:23.399 - 01:27:41.029

have immigrants from Saudi Arabia coming to live in the US. You have immigrants trying to get into people who Westerners who live in Saudi Arabia don't want to leave and they want to continue living there. But unfortunately, they have this rule that you can't be a

01:27:41.040 - 01:28:07.359

Saudi citizen unless you are a Muslim. So some of them can work. Interesting. Um, ok, so you have the answer. I think China is a fantastic place to live too, not in the major cities, but I think it's uh, I love, I love, can you tell

01:28:07.370 - 01:28:31.819

us, do you have any memories? Oh, yeah. Recently, I mean, I've been going back and forth until last year. II, I have consulting projects that to go there and I think the people are very dynamic. Uh-huh, they're friendly, they are open minded. I mean, I really

01:28:31.830 - 01:28:55.350

can't think of any bad things to say about it. I love the food. I was welcomed um my, my professional colleagues, I made friends there. I mean, what can I say? It's good. I rode around on my bicycle. I lived in Xinjiang. You know where that

01:28:55.359 - 01:29:28.649

is? Are you Chinese? I'm only part Chinese but I never lived in China. It's in the north northwest corner on the border with Kazakhstan and, and Soviet Union. Yeah, it's directly north of India actually same time zone. In fact, Xinjiang shares a border with India. That's

01:29:28.660 - 01:29:52.609

amazing. Would China be among one of your most memorable travel? I would say so. Yeah, because it's very different in many ways, you know, a lot of history, culture, uh eye-opening experience really. And to me that's the most important thing in travel. I don't want to,

01:29:53.629 - 01:30:08.310

some people want to go to a five star hotel and sit by the pool and do that. I mean, I can do that at home. I don't have to go to China to do that. I want to go there to experience the local culture and the

01:30:08.319 - 01:30:32.060

lifestyle and the cuisine and the way of thinking and all that. So yeah, that was definitely very memorable. What do you hope if you haven't been to China, you should go with an open mind, great country now. Yes, admittedly the politicians, you know, manipulate this and

01:30:32.069 - 01:30:48.350

that. But do they not do that in the US? Of course they do and it's much worse here because at least the Chinese rulers, the one thing that they have paramount, they get rich and all that fine. But taking care of the average person is their

01:30:48.359 - 01:31:06.220

highest priority, delivering an ever improving quality of life. And they're doing that because a lot of my friends and all this talk about repression and all that. I saw no sign of it at all. No sign. Everybody speaks freely more freely than in the US. OK?

01:31:06.700 - 01:31:23.709

And they openly criticized, oh, they are doing this and that. And I found myself defending the government. I mean, I'm an outsider and they're saying, oh, they're doing this and that. And I said, listen, you know, you know, is your life better than it was five

01:31:23.720 - 01:31:38.870

years ago? Yes, it is. Is it better, was five years ago? Was it better than 10 years ago? Yes. Was it better 10 years ago? Was it better than 20 years ago? Yes. Was it better 20 years ago than your parents life? Yes. What the hell

01:31:38.879 - 01:32:10.069

are you crying about then? Why are you complaining? We cannot say that in India every one's life is worse than before. Um, can you give us an example about that? Of which one? I like life in India, pollution, congestion, crime, corruption, lack of sanitation, food. I

01:32:10.080 - 01:32:36.649

mean, uh, no electrical supply. I mean, what do you want to know? Huh? Every, everything the roads are public transit doesn't work. You take your life in your hands if you get on a public train because you can't get in the infrastructure has not been updated

01:32:36.660 - 01:33:05.149

since 1927 which was the last time the bridge did something good in India. I mean, what are you talking about? So it, it's just everything is back, everything is back except for a very select few. Ok. Not even 1%. The 0.1 0.01%. They have a good

01:33:05.160 - 01:33:22.069

life. Everyone else is worse off and they are the guys who are stealing their country blind, they have Swiss bank accounts and they travel around and they commandeer the, the situation. The, the, the there's this airing, it was the national carrier but it was a private

01:33:22.080 - 01:33:42.259

company. It was nationalized and then they made rules that you have to have X number of seats allocated to members of the government. So the plane would have 200 seats, but 40 seats are assigned to the government so they can't sell them. So the plane is

01:33:42.270 - 01:33:56.169

flying empty, they're losing money and the government doesn't pay for it. This is the kind of thing that happens in India going to buy a train ticket in first class air condition. The most expensive part, you go to the counter and say I'd like to go

01:33:56.180 - 01:34:09.709

from to for a day trip. It's not very far away, even two days or whatever it is. Sorry, you guys sold out. I want to take it for six months from today. Sorry, we are sold out I want to take it from five years from today.

01:34:09.720 - 01:34:27.319

Sorry, we are sold out. It's bullshit. Ok? What they want is a bribe. You can't get anything, your mail will not be delivered to your house unless you pay a bribe to the debt. This is live in. So all those situations that you mentioned are worse

01:34:27.330 - 01:34:55.859

now than before. None of that used to happen. I love that you cannot escape participating in the corruption of society because if you tried to do that, you would start to death and you die on the street. I can't live like that. You, you either live

01:34:55.870 - 01:35:26.850

your body lives or your heart lives. They can both know. What do you hope that your Children? You'll remember that you taught them mm concern for and the family, you know, I mean, on the past, you have to look after Americans. That's what I hope they

01:35:26.859 - 01:35:52.589

know. So, um do you feel there are anything very important that we missed? I don't know what you are looking for just basically all the stories in your life? Well, I mean, there's uh thousands of stories. OK. So do you want me to just tell you

01:35:52.600 - 01:36:22.759

some things or whatever you'd like to share? Well, first of all, I feel a strong affinity to the Zoran community and I say Zoran as opposed to OK, of course, I'm half person but who knows what my dad had in him before? Ok. I only know

01:36:22.770 - 01:36:39.600

a little bit. And so as far as I know, there are no policies but there could have been an Englishman or an Englishman somewhere in the middle there. Who knows? Ok, because he was very fair and, uh, not at all in looking. Ok, he, he looked

01:36:39.609 - 01:37:07.250

more Mediterranean like an Italian or a Greek. Ok. Um, so as I said, the parties are not pure. So I, I've given up that, I thought even when I tell everybody that you shouldn't be thinking about that at all, you know, it's a false idea and

01:37:07.259 - 01:37:23.339

think about perpetuating the values of those Western faith because I think that those are very good values and I believe in them and I live my life according to that, I don't know, it's, it's not an easy thing to do by the way. Ok? Because you

01:37:23.350 - 01:37:44.479

see corruption all around you. But in the United States, most of the corruption occurs at the very top. It's the ruling class families. You know, they are the ones who are corrupt. They are the ones who create all these financial disasters. And what I see happening

01:37:44.490 - 01:38:08.250

that really disturbs me is that the instead of lifting the poor into the middle class and the middle class moving forward, it's going down with instead of other countries copying the ideals of the United States, the stated ideals of equality and equal opportunity and uh no

01:38:08.259 - 01:38:28.979

racism and all that the United States is becoming like those countries. The US is becoming like, yeah, I see it happening. Ok. It's like India began to, you know, the moral rot has not just set in, but it has taken full root and it's going to

01:38:28.990 - 01:38:54.140

destroy this country because my kid's life already is not as good as my life was. That's horrible. That's part of it. Absolutely. Part of them. You know what I mean? We have struggled. I didn't have a strong, I had a few lips here on that, but

01:38:54.569 - 01:39:16.689

I really struggled. So I think that's going to get worse. And what's happening is that the, it's been siphoned off by the people at the very top and to what purpose they already have more they can than they can possibly spend. Why did they continue to

01:39:16.700 - 01:39:35.950

do this? If you can imagine a society of only 100 people, a country with 100 people? Ok. And 10 of them are doing manufacturing and one of them owns this stuff and the rest of them are just working as employees. But the other ones who create

01:39:35.959 - 01:39:50.330

demand for what they, what is being manufactured because they need a house, they need car, they need this, that oil, et cetera, et cetera. So they create demand for that. If I get very greedy, I'm one of the one out of the 100 the 1%. And

01:39:50.339 - 01:40:04.729

I say I don't want him to earn $10. I'm going to take his $10 and leave him with only five. He now no longer has the capacity to buy the things that my factories are making. I own the factories and now my factories cannot sell anything

01:40:04.740 - 01:40:26.859

because that guy didn't have the capacity to buy anything. So my business goes down. So I fire a few more people. That's what's happening in the US. You understand, that's one of the things, logic. If you, the problem is too big, you can't understand it. So

01:40:26.870 - 01:40:45.220

you have to simplify it and create a society of 10 people or 100 people and think what would happen if people did, what they are doing here is not sustainable. You have to increase the minimum wage, you have to push money down to the people who

01:40:45.229 - 01:41:10.279

can, who need it and can spend it to improve their lives because that's the only way to have a sustainable society and we're not doing that. We're doing the opposite of that. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to add do that? Well, I can

01:41:10.290 - 01:41:28.660

talk about lots of things. Uh, I think, uh, we have, uh, a disease of individualism which was appropriate when there was no government where you had people going out 203 100 years ago, going out to the west and settling and killing all the native Americans and

01:41:29.020 - 01:41:50.240

the disease or whatever it is that they did. Ok. Maybe not intention of it. But, uh, then they took over the land. And I think that that was the time when you had to have people who are totally self sufficient and individualistic and you couldn't have

01:41:50.250 - 01:42:02.430

rules, but now we're living in close proximity, you cannot do that. You have to have rules of the road. What if everybody on the road could drive as they wish there were no traffic lights and all that, it would be total chaos. So there has to

01:42:02.439 - 01:42:23.279

be some order that is imposed on society when you're living in close quarters. And our community here has embraced kind of like that the progress. Uh I'm not sure I know what you're talking about in terms of, in terms of what I'm telling you now has

01:42:23.290 - 01:42:45.250

nothing to do with the. It's just my observation of what's happening in society. OK? So people, one of the defects and that what will kill the Zora and the Parsi community particularly is that the, the parsi fathers tend to be, be sorted by their daughters, whatever

01:42:45.259 - 01:43:05.160

the daughter wants is OK. You know, and they raise them to believe that they are princesses, not necessarily because they, they are aware of it. They may not even be aware of it. I wasn't aware of it until I realized that later. Ok? Because my boys

01:43:05.169 - 01:43:18.350

would complain that you're favoring your daughter, the sister, she's, you know, and I would say, oh, she's the youngest, she's the weakest, whatever the reason was, I would find some reason to do that. And I would deny that I favored her. But then I asked some

01:43:18.359 - 01:43:41.160

friends of mine, I said in, in daily interactions, do you think I favor her? They said, of course, it's very obvious. I said, really what? So they grow up thinking that they are the, you know, the, the, the, the, the greatest person in the world? OK.

01:43:42.200 - 01:43:59.370

And that is not helpful to them. That's actually not good for them. OK? They have to understand that they are part of society that nobody will love them and treat them the way their father did. They have to understand that life is different. They need that,

01:43:59.770 - 01:44:18.720

but they have to understand that that's not something that you can get. That's what my daughter said. That's why she's 33 and yet not very old and is 98. Yeah, and not yet married. And so she said, I'm looking for somebody like you. And I said,

01:44:18.729 - 01:44:39.979

you're never gonna find somebody like me because I'm your father. Nobody can be like me. Do you? You know what I mean? And that was like what you mean? I God, I said, no, you have me and you have your husband. That's a different relationship. You

01:44:39.990 - 01:45:07.819

cannot have that same kind of thing with your husband as you do with your father. So that's a problem. Therefore, we have a lot of divorce among the parties and that's, that's a bad thing. But it sounds like the community here is moving to accept intermarriage

01:45:08.330 - 01:45:23.890

and more stable and happier relationships. Yes. Well, there's some of us who are pushing for that. There's, of course, a reactionary group who are opposed to that, who still believe in all this stuff. And what I did was I challenged one of the guys who said

01:45:23.899 - 01:45:40.299

all this stuff said, OK, why don't we do this? I'll pay for a DNA test for you. You say you're all that pure and if there's even 1 32nd, that's the definition, by the way, in the United States of your racial identity. OK? 1 32nd. If

01:45:40.310 - 01:45:58.589

you're 1 32nd black, you are still black. If you're 1 64th, then you are whatever else you are in Japanese or Hispanic or whatever it is. OK? Did you know that? OK. So, so I said if you're even 1 32nd something else, then you're not pure.

01:45:58.859 - 01:46:18.500

Will you accept that? We'll do a DNA test? He refuses. I said if, if, if, if that's, I'll take the risk, if that's the case, I will pay your living expenses for the rest of your life. And if you lose, you have to shut up and

01:46:18.509 - 01:46:49.799

go tell everybody that you are not your party. That's, that's the d you have to eat crop. Do you refused? So because he knows not to challenge me generally, I don't make such bets if I, unless I'm sure. OK. Thank you. So much. This has been

01:46:49.810 - 01:46:54.359

great. All right. OK. Thank you so much for this interview.