00:00:01.430 - 00:00:10.050

Hello. Today is May 23rd, 2020. I'm Sonia He, and I'm here with Dr. Jeff Pan for an interview for the Houston Asian American Archive.

00:00:11.060 - 00:00:26.230

So starting off, Dr. Pan, could you please tell us where and when you were born? Yes. Uh I was born in 1955 in Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.

00:00:27.790 - 00:00:45.590

Okay, and could you just kind of describe the household and community that you grew up in in Taipei? Yes. Where I grew up, I will describe first as my household. Is a fairly typical kind of middle

00:00:45.590 - 00:01:03.480

class family in the 1940s and 1950s. And basically, in terms of neighbors or neighborhood, most of the families are kind of in the similar situation and people are

00:01:03.480 - 00:01:18.060

really friendly, and kids of the same age kind of tend to hang around together, playing sports, playing games. So overall, it was kind of fairly homogenous, homogenized neighborhood.

00:01:21.000 - 00:01:32.510

Okay. Um, and you said that it was homogenized. So what did your parents do? And was it similar to what the other people in your community did? Right, um, my father.

00:01:34.380 - 00:01:51.410

My father, unfortunately, he passed away at the end of, of 2018. My father was a civil engineer, civil engineer working for Taipei Municipal Engineering Bureau.

00:01:51.970 - 00:02:09.110

And he basically designs and construct the roads and major roads and tunnels near Taipei, and actually for several times, when— when we, when we went back to Taipei, I was telling my

00:02:10.000 - 00:02:25.960

children about grandfather's work around Taipei. My mother— she was a junior teacher for junior high, but only for a fairly long— fairly short term. Uh she basically stopped

00:02:25.960 - 00:02:44.130

working after I was born. Okay, okay. Um, so what were some of the values you learned growing up? Well, at the young age, I was realizing that the most important value isa-is

00:02:45.920 - 00:02:57.920

a family. It is important to kind of protect your family and, and keep your family inheritance growing. And I

00:02:57.920 - 00:03:13.560

think by and large, each generation has a responsibility to kind of protect or improve the family status from generation to the generation, that's the first thing I learned. The second thing I learned largely is coming from my father.

00:03:14.440 - 00:03:31.640

And he basically taught me is that work hard, work hard and never concede and work hard and leave nothing on the table. And if you must fail, let your competitor beat you; don’t just throw in the towel yourself.

00:03:33.700 - 00:03:44.520

It’s very important. Yes. So what did you enjoy doing in your childhood, like any favorite subjects or activities? Yeah, overall in the free time.

00:03:44.520 - 00:04:02.150

Of course, I enjoy hanging around with boys in the neighborhood of the same age and playing sports and playing games. And as far as my favorite subjects are, most of, when I was little, most of the

00:04:02.150 - 00:04:18.250

subjects tend to come to me fairly easily. And I particularly like arts and mathematics. And the arts that I like is like a

00:04:18.300 - 00:04:34.810

painting or calligraphy. And I was also fairly athletic. And so by the time in my senior year of my elementary school, I

00:04:34.810 - 00:04:53.840

was, I was actually playing in four varsity teams. In basketball, volleyball, football, in Asia, we call it football. Soccer. And then the dodgeball, so overall, the

00:04:54.950 - 00:05:10.700

growing experience was quite carefree, and I was enjoying a lot of love from parents and my siblings. Okay, how many siblings did you have? Or do you have? I have one elder sister and two

00:05:11.580 - 00:05:23.820

younger brothers. I'm basically- I'm basically a first son to my father. And Jason is also the first son. So, in the traditional Chinese family, it

00:05:23.820 - 00:05:38.980

implies the special responsibility and the first son and first grandson. Mhm. Okay. So then how did you become interested in your profession? What, actually, in terms of the

00:05:40.490 - 00:05:53.750

profession as a petroleum geoscientist, I really didn't get into this profession with a pre-developed interest. Instead, I kind of developed the

00:05:53.750 - 00:06:09.650

interest on the fly when I was working for the oil and gas industry. When I look back overall, the 30 years is really a very fun experience. The job actually or the industry

00:06:09.650 - 00:06:24.230

actually treated me very well. Okay. So then what did you study at university? I, I was in the geology department at National Taiwan University.

00:06:24.740 - 00:06:40.510

And so, uh I started with geology and then later on, come to the United States start, start studying geophysics. Okay. So then how and when did you come to the US?

00:06:42.040 - 00:07:00.820

I come to US after graduate from-after graduate from National Taiwan University. And then I served in the military for two years, it a compulsory position for each man to

00:07:00.820 - 00:07:16.660

serve the country. And so, after graduating in 1979, after two years of compulsory military service, I came to the United States in 19-1981. Okay.

00:07:18.340 - 00:07:32.510

And what made you decide to come to the US? Was it just to study or was there any other reason? Mainly is really to study. I— after I graduate from the college, and during the

00:07:32.510 - 00:07:46.910

two years of military service, and I was thinking about what should I do next? So I started applying for graduate schools in the US, and I was actually lucky to

00:07:46.910 - 00:08:07.150

get a, a, a few acceptance from the schools. And for that, actually Princeton University, the department of geological and geophysical departments, they were able to offer

00:08:08.630 - 00:08:20.550

me with the full scholarship. Yeah. And the scholarship actually, on the surface, it appears to be a lot of money. Each year is about

00:08:21.350 - 00:08:37.340

18,000 or 19,000. But you take this full scholarship, you pay for tuition, the only thing remaining is about like $500 to $600 per month as a kind of the graduate student’s stipend.

00:08:38.570 - 00:08:54.320

Nevertheless, it was a really a good help. Help financially, because at that time, nobody's really well off to pay for that kind of . Yeah. So when you first came to the United States, was there kind of a culture shock?

00:08:54.920 - 00:09:12.390

Or what were the main challenges of immigrating just to come over to study? Yeah, I think cultural shock is probably a little bit too strong. Because, but, but I did, I did observe a few differences because

00:09:15.040 - 00:09:31.030

as a-as a foreign student and prepare to come to us for graduate school, I have largely anticipated the situations in the US. So, talking about cultural

00:09:31.030 - 00:09:46.760

shock, I would not probably describe it as a cultural shock, but I did observe a few differences. The first interesting difference is that the professor, professor or your student advisor, tend to

00:09:46.760 - 00:10:01.190

treat you as an equal. Instead of uh, instead of treating you as some-with some hierarchical situation of- between teacher and students very typical

00:10:01.300 - 00:10:15.120

traditional Oriental society. Right over here, the professors and the students are more like friends. And they— my advisor, Professor Robert A.

00:10:15.120 - 00:10:34.310

Phinney, the first time we met I say, addressed him as a Professor Phinney. And he looked at me and said, “Jeff, just call me Bob.” Well that was a-that was a very interesting observation to start with. And then the second interesting observation is

00:10:36.060 - 00:10:54.920

basically, I think, it is interesting to see in the US, it is kind of allowed each individual be a lot more self-centered, in terms of pursuing personal

00:10:54.920 - 00:11:11.520

happiness. And we grew up in the typical Oriental society, we-we being educated that you need to set aside, or most of the time, you need to be selfless. You need to consider the bigger good.

00:11:12.440 - 00:11:29.980

And therefore your personal happiness is not always be a very high priority. But that I was kind of totally surprised to see that while you can be pursuing yourself happiness, you're allowed

00:11:29.980 - 00:11:43.320

to be more self-centered, to take care of yourself. So overall really, it's a different value system. There is no good and bad. And later on what I realized is that really, personally,

00:11:45.320 - 00:11:59.900

you just have to achieve a kind of a balance between self-centered versus selfless and bigger good. It's just a balance act basically.

00:12:00.480 - 00:12:12.210

Yeah, that's very true. So were there any like — — before you go. In terms of cultural shock. Even though I did not experience any in the

00:12:12.250 - 00:12:24.190

early days, when I come to the United States, I did observe some cultural shock with the COVID-19 situation. Really? Okay. We can talk about that later.

00:12:24.380 - 00:12:33.150

Yeah, we can talk about that in a second. Um, so were there any major challenges when you first came to the US? I know, you said you received a scholarship to

00:12:33.270 - 00:12:49.050

Princeton, so, financially, you had some of it covered, but were there any other major challenges communicating socially, or otherwise? Well, really, I think the, the first, the first, the first challenge is always in a language barrier.

00:12:50.950 - 00:13:13.560

And regardless how good you are, because language itself is ultimately kind of part of the living culture and like for instance, the first time like I-I-I went to a bank and tried to open an account.

00:13:16.160 - 00:13:28.690

The, the teller basically asked me that, “Okay, Mr. Pan you want to open an account? Do you want to have a NOW account or you want to have a checking account?” Checking account, I

00:13:28.780 - 00:13:45.330

understand. NOW account is their internal terminology, in terms of combination of checking and saving. Anytime when you are low in one account, you— they can just automatically transfer one to the other. How would I know what is NOW account?

00:13:46.860 - 00:14:02.320

So the language is basically always the first barrier and first challenge. But I, I was kind of extremely lucky because we, as a graduate student, we, for, especially first

00:14:02.720 - 00:14:14.650

year, very rarely, we were lucky enough to have a single room to start with. So, I was paired up with Indian person.

00:14:16.860 - 00:14:31.590

And that was the first year and of course I learned a lot from him. But unfortunately, India-English is with very strong accent. And so I do learn a lot from him but not really really very much.

00:14:32.250 - 00:14:45.930

The second year I was extremely lucky to pair up with also a Chinese American. But he is actually a Chinese-American with a lot of foreign background,

00:14:45.930 - 00:15:04.240

because he basically attended a US school in Brazil. He was immigrating at very early on in his young age, and so we two pair up, and his English is much better than I did at that time. So I

00:15:04.240 - 00:15:19.430

tried to learn with him, and he understand a lot of US culture as well. And he actually gave me a very— a piece of very good advice, say— He basically say, “Jeff, in order to learn the language,

00:15:19.550 - 00:15:36.860

the first is that you need to be able to comprehensive in order to understand English first.” And his advice was for me to, basically, when I have time to listen to the three major channels, the US

00:15:37.250 - 00:15:49.260

news broadcast. And in a very beginning, I have to listen very, very carefully. And also, I have to turn on the caption. There's caption.

00:15:50.570 - 00:16:09.890

He said, “By the time you can turn on the TV, listening to it and go ahead and tend to your own work, and still understand what it is trying to tell you. Basically, your comprehension capabilities is there.” So I

00:16:09.890 - 00:16:22.320

do that every day with one and a half hours of major news. And about six months later, I was happy to find out that I really don't have

00:16:22.320 - 00:16:38.220

to sit in front of a TV. I could walk around the rooms, and I could understand what the anchorman or anchorwoman was trying to tell me. Wow, that's amazing. Okay, so you studied geophysics

00:16:38.810 - 00:16:52.580

at Princeton. And what made you decide to stay at Princeton as a research associate? Oh, that's a that's a very long story. Maybe if your interests-interested,

00:16:52.680 - 00:17:09.450

I will tell you. By the time it was 1986, I was anticipating that I need to kind of finish my degree and graduate from the department.

00:17:10.370 - 00:17:24.630

So I uh , started attending the job fairs and start attending interviews, campus interviews. And at that time, in the 1986,

00:17:25.580 - 00:17:42.210

oil prices very, very low and most of the earth science related either university department— actually they have already reduced the program, even just close the program.

00:17:43.890 - 00:17:57.330

So it is very difficult to find a geoscience related job. However, a few, only a few of the oil companies, they will still hire me. So I was

00:17:57.330 - 00:18:14.650

able to sign up with campus interview in a job fair was a few oil company. So I was lucky that I did get a few offer from oil companies, and of the-the few offers the one that I particularly like is

00:18:15.010 - 00:18:26.790

offer from Texaco. I don’t know how familiar you are with— because Texaco is no longer existing. It-Texaco merged with Chevron later on.

00:18:27.270 - 00:18:38.910

So it’s become Chevron now. So out of the few offers, this is the one I particularly liked. So I turned, basically, turned down the rest of trying to keep this offer.

00:18:39.920 - 00:18:54.070

And in the offer letter they said, I have three weeks to decide. Get the job. And during the time my advisor, Professor Phinney, he was-he was on

00:18:54.070 - 00:19:11.050

summer vacation in Canada and I figured, I have three weeks, and I'll wait for him to come back and I'll sit down and talk with him and get his blessing to accept the job.

00:19:12.820 - 00:19:28.740

I never realized in the summer of 1986, oil price all of a sudden dip down to $12. And-and the company,

00:19:29.520 - 00:19:42.900

Texaco, they had to call me, they have to call me and backtrack the offer. So I-I was really, really depressed.

00:19:43.120 - 00:19:59.870

And when Professor Phinney come back, I told him about my experience. And-and being a real gentleman, he basically said, “Jeff, don't feel bad. And don’t

00:19:59.870 - 00:20:16.130

get frustrated, don't worry about the situation. Let’s write a proposal, we will get a grant to support you as a postdoc.” “And just staying in with Princeton, don't worry about

00:20:16.130 - 00:20:29.850

the situation.” So together we did write a few proposals, send it off to different foundation, like NSF. And one

00:20:29.850 - 00:20:45.370

particular one went to Office of Naval Research. And we got a two years grant from the Office Naval Research. And so with that, I stayed one additional year as a postdoc.

00:20:46.110 - 00:20:58.650

And later on, the oil industry kind of turned around. And I didn't really trying to interview for a job, but one guy is

00:20:58.650 - 00:21:17.280

about two years senior to me from Princeton University was working for ARCO and he came back to conduct a campus interview. Due to my previous experience with the oil company, I was

00:21:17.280 - 00:21:36.540

not very enthusiastic working with any oil company, but I kind of bump into him in a, in the, in the hallway and he said, “Jeff, come interview for ARCO. Why don’t you come and interview

00:21:36.540 - 00:21:51.110

with me or at least talk to me right?” I said “Well… “ His name is Jay, Jay Namson. I said, “Jay, at this point, I'm really not interested in finding a job with oil

00:21:51.110 - 00:22:07.610

company. And, and besides, I really don't have my updated or brushed up resume to come and talk to you.” And Jay said, “Jeff, nevermind, don't worry about the resume.

00:22:09.460 - 00:22:22.080

Just come and talk to me tomorrow, okay, tomorrow.” So I did go and talk to him, went and talk to him. I did go and talk to him the next day. And the

00:22:22.080 - 00:22:37.550

interview was very smooth. And he said, he basically say, “Jeff, we need people like you to work for ARCO and why don't you come for plant inter-interview?

00:22:38.340 - 00:22:49.980

I arrange that. If you really don't like the job, at least you can come to Dallas. The first day will be a job interview. The second day we will show you around Dallas.” And

00:22:51.020 - 00:23:07.890

so I did that. I was more kind of interested in seeing Dallas, then really getting the job. I never realized that one thing leads to the other, and I cannot see Dallas at all because the first day I interview-I was interviewed the group

00:23:08.860 - 00:23:26.170

originally signed up to talk to me and during my presentation— traditionally you-you go for a plant visit and then present your thesis topics. And there were several groups of people presented in my

00:23:26.170 - 00:23:39.860

presentation. One of the gentlemen realized that I was interviewed with one specific group, and he insists I need to interview with his group as well. So I ended up using the second day interviewing with

00:23:40.000 - 00:23:57.090

the second group, and did not see Dallas at all. And really they were kind of internal competition. And long story short is that I end up working for the second group with-with a job

00:23:57.090 - 00:24:10.670

offer that is kind of really nice at the time. But at the time I really did not look for oil industry job, kind of-kind of stumbled into it. Okay. That's really interesting.

00:24:11.450 - 00:24:25.280

Um, so you-you already mentioned that your first initial job was uh— didn't succeed because of the fall of the oil markets. But after you enter the Atlantic Richfield Company or ARCO, how was the experience?

00:24:26.000 - 00:24:39.070

Was there any more fluctuation in the oil markets and how did that affect your work? Yes, speaking-speaking of oil industry, unless— unfortunately, the oil and gas industry is

00:24:39.070 - 00:24:58.170

kind of a cyclic commodity market. And it is completely determined by the price, it is completely determined by the supply and demand. So, when you look back in terms of history,

00:24:58.310 - 00:25:13.610

there are actually significant up and downs of the oil price, but whenever there is up or downs, it creates instability. When is too much unfortunately, it kind of hinders

00:25:14.590 - 00:25:30.310

the-the growth of the economy, when it is down very much, then the oil company start of a reduction of the workforce. And a lot of times they call it a layoff or sometimes company preferred to call it

00:25:31.160 - 00:25:49.210

company reorganization, but they all reduction of workforce anyway. So, speaking on my working experience with ARCO, I ended up working for ARCO for 10 years. It was between 1988 and

00:25:49.210 - 00:26:07.460

1998. And during the-the 10 years of time, I actually experienced thirteen layoffs or thirteen reorganization. So the, the frequency is really a lot higher

00:26:07.460 - 00:26:20.080

than once every year. So it was— the first few layoffs it was pretty scary experience for me because you don't know what's going to happen.

00:26:20.580 - 00:26:33.250

Additionally, the company tells you that each one stay in office, then your manager will come by to your office to tell you, “Jeff, you have a job with us.

00:26:33.950 - 00:26:52.380

Jeff, we're sorry, unfortunately, we cannot keep you.” And so the first few ones it was really, really scary. But then by the time you get into the later ones, I pretty much realized that-that this layoff or

00:26:53.290 - 00:27:07.320

reorganization something is that is out of your control. It's out of your control, anyway. so, I was able to kind of keep it out of my mind, basically focus

00:27:07.320 - 00:27:24.180

on things I can have control. So maybe because of that, I was able to kind of remain my focus and still have kind of a high performance in job.

00:27:25.090 - 00:27:36.230

But to tell you the least, is that 10 years with 13 reorganization. It was really a period of very, very volatile time.

00:27:37.230 - 00:27:54.900

So, I am my colleague or I am my co-workers that we work for ARCO, after that period of time, when we look back now we kind of tend to joking with each other. “Hey, we survived the ARCO

00:27:54.900 - 00:28:07.700

days. ARCO days. So, either we are technically very, very strong. Or, we have very, very high EQ.” To survive the situation.

00:28:08.740 - 00:28:24.150

The department that I worked for in ARCO days was called ERTS, E-R-T-S Exploration and Reservoir Technical Service Group.

00:28:25.890 - 00:28:44.510

In 1988, when I joined ARCO, the department has more than 1000 people. Time, by the time it gets to 1998. And I actually I, I leave ARCO

00:28:44.510 - 00:28:59.840

because of work opportunities, another work of opportunity of Oryx. So I left ARCO to join Oryx. By the time I left ARCO to join Oryx, the department had 94 people.

00:29:00.750 - 00:29:17.760

Yeah, so it was a, it was a period a very volatile time. But overall, what I learned is that really, whenever there's a layoff coming, there is a company reorganization coming, if it is out of your

00:29:17.760 - 00:29:32.890

control, just shut it down. Don't think about it Focus on things you have control. Yes. Um so how would you describe the diversity in your kind of

00:29:33.000 - 00:29:47.390

career or community at ARCO? Um, in terms of like people of color or different genders, what was the like kind of diversity like? Yeah, the majority, the majority,

00:29:48.150 - 00:30:05.170

the majority of the makeup of the group is really white and most of the managers and executives are white as well. And the percentage of

00:30:06.770 - 00:30:23.030

non-white, the percentage of the color people is probably in total makeup about 15% of the total workforce. Wow. So did you experience any kind of discrimination or being looked

00:30:23.030 - 00:30:38.670

over for promotion or anything during your time in the field? Yeah. Specifically, specifically ARCO and later on with the oil industry. I work for industry

00:30:38.670 - 00:30:55.260

for almost like 30 years. And unfortunately, the answer is yes. And the answer is yes. But, but to me, I think

00:30:55.260 - 00:31:11.500

it’s-it’s- it's probably more of a more of a-more of a human nature then a deliberate malicious kind of discrimination. Okay? The reason why I say that is because as

00:31:14.650 - 00:31:30.050

the old sayings of birds of the same feather, flock together, right? And for people like you and me, we tend to-we tend to promote people like us or we tend to-we tend to hang around

00:31:31.230 - 00:31:45.560

like us, we feel more comfortable of hanging around people similar to us. So, so in a way, in a way, the oil and gas industry, most of the managers and executives, non-colored

00:31:47.050 - 00:32:00.370

people, so, it is inevitable they, they tend to promote people like that. Unfortunately, yeah, during the 30 years of time, I do have a few occasions being look over.

00:32:01.720 - 00:32:19.950

Okay, so how do you-how do you like maintain your positivity or maintain your work ethic knowing that some people or you're being looked over by your manager or executives? Well, I think the way that I keep my motivation is like the way I

00:32:19.950 - 00:32:33.290

just, you know, you understand the situation. And the-the look over is probably not trying to— or it's a deliberate a-

00:32:33.290 - 00:32:49.580

act with an intention to let it happen. So, in a way, I just kept telling myself that well, work hard, focus on things you have control, and good things will follow.

00:32:49.920 - 00:33:03.170

And and it did. Nice. Okay. In certain things. In certain things. It is not- it is not a smooth road. I wish I could be a rising star, right?

00:33:03.640 - 00:33:17.950

To greet everybody, like, I have my tenure for two or three, three years in each department and there will be promotion year after year. But most of the things don't

00:33:18.090 - 00:33:32.320

work that way. It is what it is I guess. Yes. So what do you think the impact of a petroleum geoscientist is on a community in the world or the impact of the oil industry on the world in general?

00:33:34.700 - 00:33:47.500

Yeah, speaking of that. Contrary to the-to the general belief, the oil and gas is gonna run out like the peak oil & peak gas theory.

00:33:48.970 - 00:34:05.630

The remaining oil and gas reserve is really quite large. So, it is in quantity so abundant that it’s gonna, it's gonna be here for a long, long time with the current

00:34:07.130 - 00:34:24.300

world consumption rate. So in terms of that, I think the petroleum scientists’ responsibility is to- is to locate— first locate the resources, and then

00:34:24.960 - 00:34:39.210

try to extract them with the most efficient and most environmental friendly way to provide the world with the affordable energy. In a way, I

00:34:39.210 - 00:34:57.090

think as long as the world is needing energy, to keep the civilization going, to maintain reasonable living standards. We need to have some sort of— or some form of energy and at this

00:34:57.250 - 00:35:16.080

point, at this point, I just really don't see any replacement energy that is in scale is large enough to replace oil and gas. Mhm. Okay,and just really

00:35:16.080 - 00:35:26.630

quickly related to COVID-19, how do you think a pandemic will affect the future of oil and gas? Well in the near term, yes. Long term, no.

00:35:28.260 - 00:35:45.900

The reason why I say that is, as I just mentioned that, as long as the world is needing an energy to keep the civilization going, or to maintain a reasonable living standard, in the foreseeable future,

00:35:46.490 - 00:36:02.320

the world still needs a oil— a healthy oil and gas industry to provide the affordable energy. Mm hmm. Okay, so you worked at ARCO for 10 years and then

00:36:02.840 - 00:36:15.760

you transferred to a better opportunity. When did you start working for Anadarko in China? Okay, that's another long story. That is another long story.

00:36:16.250 - 00:36:31.880

I mentioned I work for ARCO for 10 years and then an opportunity presented itself. So I left ARCO, join this company called Oryx, and at that time, it seems to be

00:36:32.210 - 00:36:50.330

a very good idea because both ARCO and Oryx, and they both in Dallas and the opportunity in Oryx was able to presented me with a very significant enhancement of the benefit

00:36:51.400 - 00:37:08.930

package. And so with a much higher pay, and kids stay in the same school, family live in the same house, it's a, it's offer I cannot refuse. So I joined Oryx, I left ARCO and joined Oryx.

00:37:10.620 - 00:37:24.170

I like what I did not I realize in six months later, Oryx merged with this company called Kerr McGee. And Kerr McGee is a company in Houston.

00:37:26.190 - 00:37:42.720

So they-they want to have all the critical members all in Houston. So I have to move-move from Dallas to Houston mainly for reason of job, or for job

00:37:42.720 - 00:38:01.520

reason. And– and Kerr McGee actually merged with Anadarko in 2006 so I end up working for Anadarko, and after the merger, they needed to

00:38:01.690 - 00:38:19.620

have somebody to go to Beijing office to take care of the subsurface and operations. So I was– was chosen to to be the one is taking care of the

00:38:19.620 - 00:38:36.460

subsurface and operations. So I left Houston for Beijing, April 2007. So that's kind of a long winded answer to your question.

00:38:36.680 - 00:38:51.600

No, that's really interesting though there were so many mergings going on while you-when you-when you wanted to stay in Dallas, but ended up going to be Beijing. Right. But for me, for me, actually, personally,

00:38:52.210 - 00:39:09.540

I only changed my job once and that was from ARCO to Oryx. And then later on the job changes all with company mergers. Mm hmm. So as a

00:39:10.540 - 00:39:31.310

ex-executive expatriate for Anadarko in China for a long time, how big of a change in China's energy in industry did you witness? It was quite, it was quite large. I don't know how you- how much do you familiar with the-

00:39:32.370 - 00:39:50.870

the oil and gas industry, especially the offshore oil and gas industry. Offshore, basically, we call it offshore is-is is non land, is marine oil and gas industry.

00:39:52.210 - 00:40:07.370

The offshore oil and gas industry actually is kind of categorized by water depths. Shallow water oil and gas, deep water oil and

00:40:07.620 - 00:40:23.980

gas, and, and the definition of deep water was a bit of evolving definition. It used to be like anything is deeper than 200 feet, it's called deep water. Later on, it evolves into anything that's

00:40:24.180 - 00:40:42.230

deeper than 1000 feet. 330 meters depths is called deep water. So uh, overall the offshore oil and gas industry for China, China kind of

00:40:42.230 - 00:41:01.080

started late in offshore oil and gas business. So, in the early days uh, in order to catch up they have to basically conduct like joint venture or development with foreign countries,

00:41:02.160 - 00:41:21.900

and particularly with Western countries to learn the technology know-how— to know how to operate. So by the time in 2007 when I was in Beijing, the China offshore oil and gas business

00:41:23.190 - 00:41:38.300

is pretty much learn how to explore and develop and produce in the shallow water. The only thing that they have slightly de— slightly

00:41:39.480 - 00:41:55.330

deficient is in the front of integration. But that, they actually quickly learn how to do that as well. And what's, what, what is interesting developments is that by the time it

00:41:55.330 - 00:42:13.680

is 2012, China came of it’s first ultra-deep water drilling rig. It’s called 海洋石油 . One and so, China

00:42:13.680 - 00:42:29.560

actually got into deep water in during the time I was in Beijing. And so it was a huge progress because from shallow water to deep water is huge progress and huge leap. So it’s a significant-

00:42:29.560 - 00:42:42.100

very significant progress. In the time, by the time I left Beijing, it was 2014. I think the only thing that in terms of offshore exploration,

00:42:44.840 - 00:43:00.770

development, the only thing that China has yet to prove or learn is the deep water development and integration. So it's a fairly significant progress and huge progress to

00:43:01.320 - 00:43:17.140

the Chinese oil and gas industry. Okay. So what do you think contributed to their rapid growth? I think mainly-mainly two things. I think the first thing is a very highly

00:43:18.940 - 00:43:33.830

educated-highly educated geoscience related people that is coming over from typical universities or the petroleum

00:43:33.830 - 00:43:50.350

universities in China and they basically generated very highly educated and efficient workforce working in the oil and gas industry. That’s first thing. The second thing is the is a policy,

00:43:50.780 - 00:44:10.130

government policy. Government policy is in such a way that it-it encouraged and also provide enough incentive for the foreign or Western countries to come and conduct the joint venture,

00:44:11.100 - 00:44:29.820

provide the capital or investment. Okay. So since you worked in Dallas and America for a long time with the oil industry, how did you have to adapt or did you have to adapt to working with your Chinese and

00:44:29.820 - 00:44:50.680

Beijing counterparts while you were there? Yes, quite a few things, quite a few things. Uh I-I quickly learn when I, when I talk with my, when I talk with my direct reports, even I talked with

00:44:50.680 - 00:45:08.270

my counterparts that in CNOOC, CNOOC stands for Chinese National Offshore Oil Company, yeah, so in

00:45:08.270 - 00:45:26.140

China, basic-basically all the foreign companies cannot conduct development or production alone, to be joint venture with a Chinese company. And for the offshore oil businesses, counter part is

00:45:26.140 - 00:45:43.190

CNOOC. So I have my counterpart walking working in scene. I come to a very quick realization is that a lot of times they will say, “Yes.” But—

00:45:44.540 - 00:46:01.040

or they will be appeared to be agreeable. But the yes turned out to be a not a true yes. And agreeable can be actually “no.”. They've been-they've been so-they being

00:46:01.530 - 00:46:15.040

so polite. They will not say some certain things to negate you or to disagree with you in the open meetings.

00:46:16.700 - 00:46:34.410

And you almost always have to find each individual's true intention with one-on-one meeting. And-and-and it actually takes me a few

00:46:34.410 - 00:46:44.860

lessons to learn that. And so you kind of have to kind of sit down with each individual to find out the true answer. That’s kind of the first thing.

00:46:46.620 - 00:47:04.560

The second thing is that despite that each individual is very very strong techni-technically in their own, in their, in his own or her own view, the teamwork is just not-not guaranteed.

00:47:06.130 - 00:47:20.680

Yeah uh, each individual is very strong in their personal area. But then they tend to keep what they know very close to their chest. It is not an automatically sharing.

00:47:22.240 - 00:47:36.960

So, it takes a long time for me to let the people in my department understand that there is really no individual

00:47:36.960 - 00:47:55.760

success as there's a team success. So if the team cannot achieve it’s goal or objective, it reflects the— it reflects failure to each individual. So it takes that kind of concept and keep telling

00:47:57.010 - 00:48:17.880

them about teamwork to truly foster the teamworks there. Okay. So um, how did your family adjust to life in China? Well actually you're talking about

00:48:20.150 - 00:48:43.520

three of us, I, my wife, and my son. When I, when we were transferred to Beijing, my son was ready to attend his last year, senior year of high school. So there was

00:48:43.730 - 00:49:02.510

debate to debate of, of leaving him behind in United States to attend the last year of high school and-and-and then he will go to college or university and without take

00:49:02.570 - 00:49:18.280

him to Beijing. But then I and my wife decide, we decide that it’s probably going to be a life- enhance experience for him, so

00:49:19.550 - 00:49:35.630

we-we took him to Beijing. The night, the night before he left the United States, six of his classmates come to see him.

00:49:37.980 - 00:49:54.430

And it was three boys and three girls, talking with Jason and then bid him well, farewell to-to Beijing. And after the after

00:49:55.650 - 00:50:17.360

Jason's classmate left, Jason went into his room, closed the door. And he started crying. And my wife and I look at each

00:50:20.000 - 00:50:38.510

other. We thought, “Oh. What have we done?” But things pretty much already decided. We went, three of us all together. So the long story short is that Jason attended

00:50:40.290 - 00:50:54.900

school in Beijing called WAB. It's a-it's a western- Western Academy of Bei— Western Academy of Beijing, the school especially prepare for

00:50:55.810 - 00:51:16.560

foreign students. And the long story short, Jason applied for US university, he got accepted, and the day before he was ready to leave Beijing for US, he came to us, come to me and my wife.

00:51:19.170 - 00:51:33.350

And he said, “Dad. Mom-Mom. I just wanted you to know to me, the Beijing experience was pure fun.” And it was

00:51:33.350 - 00:51:50.600

a such a big relief for us. We-I and my wife, we thought, “Oh, thank god. We did the right thing.” To kind of insist he came with us. And for me and my wife of course

00:51:51.100 - 00:52:04.890

is a much easier adjustment. My wife, she's also Chinese. We learned the language. We-we know the language.

00:52:05.560 - 00:52:20.930

We know the culture well enough to fit in. Particularly, if you wanna, if you want to talk about adjustments, they were all really,

00:52:20.930 - 00:52:36.260

really very minor adjustments. It’s basically adjustments of that you have a little bit smaller personal space because population.

00:52:36.980 - 00:52:57.910

And uh the uh the secretaries or the-the drivers tends to be- tends to be more involved in terms of your daily life. It's not like that in US.

00:52:58.210 - 00:53:11.920

You go to work and when you come home this only your family. You have-you have the secretaries, you have the A-yi’s, the drivers, they tend to be kind of

00:53:13.100 - 00:53:30.760

part of your daily life and that's different. And for the Americans, they tend to be very, very emphasize on their privacy. Emphasize on personal life, and over there, that you kind

00:53:31.710 - 00:53:43.860

of-kind of have to open up a little bit. You have a few more people in your daily life and that’s kind of adjustment. And other than that,

00:53:45.640 - 00:53:56.240

some minor adjustment with the traffic congestion in Beijing. And-and some of the kind of air quality issues.

00:53:57.000 - 00:54:12.640

Those are really, really minor adjustments. And for me, I and my wife, and even including Jason, we actually enjoyed our experience in Beijing very very much in

00:54:12.640 - 00:54:33.460

a very very positive way. And I and my wife actually come across this list of about 500 sites or places in Beijing or near Beijing, must

00:54:33.460 - 00:54:49.730

go, must go list. So we, of course after the first year, Jason left for university and leaving Beijing is only, the family is only I and my wife.

00:54:50.900 - 00:55:08.380

We made a— so we made an effort to kind of visit going down the list, visiting this different sites, a kind of historical sites or scenic area and

00:55:09.170 - 00:55:25.640

we had really have a blast of staying Beijing. Very, very positive experience. So did your son come to visit you every summer after school was let out, or did he stay in the US for university over the summers?

00:55:26.760 - 00:55:47.070

He-he stayed in-he stayed in the university, and for most of the time during— but the arrangement from a company is that they provide-they provide travel fundings for-for-for

00:55:50.330 - 00:56:01.780

children or for kids are in university to come and visit parents twice every year. Wow. That's nice. Yeah. So once in the summertime, once in the wintertime.

00:56:04.350 - 00:56:20.930

Only for the-only for the first winter that Jason decided to spend his winter vacation and Thanksgiving with his friends. In the- in the rest of time he-he actually came and

00:56:20.930 - 00:56:36.710

visit us , the remaining seven times. That's nice. Um so, what do you think are the best parts of a Chinese workplace? you already mentioned some of the disadvantages or some of the things that you

00:56:36.710 - 00:56:50.520

needed to work on like teamwork. But what are some of the pros? Pros is like what I mentioned early on is that the-the-the Beijing workforce or the Beijing

00:56:50.600 - 00:57:07.330

local workforces is a group of very, very highly educated people. And they are very highly educated, and they are very, very devoted. They are willing to put in long hours to get the work

00:57:07.490 - 00:57:28.280

done. So, and these are kind of the very positive aspect of the-of the local work is they are-they are intelligent, they're smart, very well educated, very dedicated. And once we let them

00:57:28.280 - 00:57:44.750

understand that the spirit of teamwork is very important and the US working culture is that you need to be upfront and communicate early on.

00:57:45.410 - 00:58:00.090

And it is, it is-it is okay to take risks. It is okay to have a failure case, and failure case is part of the learning process, and they work beautifully.

00:58:00.200 - 00:58:15.490

They are very, very productive. Okay, so what are your major takeaways from your time in China? It can be anything, doesn't have to be work related. Yeah. I think the major takeaway of my experience

00:58:16.020 - 00:58:30.490

in China is that, China is is very rapid progressing. It’s-first of all, the most impressive part is that the rapid progress of China, and

00:58:31.820 - 00:58:48.450

China is, is a very vibrant country, with very highly educated and devoted workforce. So I think China will be one of the top countries very soon.

00:58:53.740 - 00:59:07.870

Okay. Um, and so you mentioned a lot of the younger generation or the people who graduated from petroleum universities or the big universities in China, they're very highly educated and they're very productive and very effective, they're willing to put in a lot of

00:59:07.870 - 00:59:28.310

work hours. How does that differ from the younger generation in the US? Well, I think in general the differences between, I think, first of all, I mentioned early on

00:59:28.380 - 00:59:44.880

about this self-centered, self-centered and and kind of a pursuer of the personal happiness. In general, I think the, the younger generation between

00:59:46.520 - 01:00:03.760

China and US is that, in China, the younger generation, I could say, they have more sense of the, the self-less, more sense of the bigger good.

01:00:05.410 - 01:00:26.000

In terms of motivation-in terms of motivation, these group of people in China, they're very, very motivated in terms of pursuing higher education or going after

01:00:26.210 - 01:00:39.700

certain success. The motivation is definitely there. And in terms of motivation, the-the young-younger people, the youngsters, the

01:00:39.700 - 01:00:58.420

youth in US is more like pursuing their personal happiness, and it is a lot like, if you're not happy-if you're not happy now do something for a change type of situation.

01:00:58.540 - 01:01:12.860

So, in terms of comparison, I think-I think that China, Chinese you-Chinese, are more, more endurance, they are

01:01:12.860 - 01:01:26.960

more enduranced to pressure. I think this maybe, even though I don't like-I don't like Entrance Examination determines what university you attend

01:01:27.580 - 01:01:42.830

or what high school you attend. But because of this entrance examination, I think most of the Chinese young people, they are no doubt a lot

01:01:42.830 - 01:01:59.200

more endurance to pressure, more competitive and more kind of endurance and can perform under pressure because ultimately exam itself is pressure. Yeah, that's very true.

01:02:00.370 - 01:02:15.930

So, um, when you went to China, your son was already in his senior year of high school, but does your experience in China change any of the expectations you have for him? Not, not

01:02:16.260 - 01:02:35.090

really from the very beginning I and my wife, we, we kind of fairly consistently trying to educate my children to be-to be a responsible world citizen.

01:02:35.970 - 01:02:55.090

And from the very, very, very, very beginning, we-we keep both of my kids bilingual. As it’s Chinese and English at the same time. So when they grow up, both of

01:02:55.240 - 01:03:11.310

them could speak fluent Chinese. Reading is a very tough reading is a little bit different. But my daughter, she was able to kind of— for most of time, was able to read most of the the

01:03:13.530 - 01:03:28.640

simple articles and she was able to at least watch Chinese soap operas to enjoy. And Jason Of course, he also speaks fluent Chinese but his reading

01:03:28.640 - 01:03:47.640

and comprehension capability is a little bit less than his sister. So overall-So overall, I think our China experience actually either

01:03:47.640 - 01:04:04.510

confirm or enhance their experience because they realize that extra language, or additional language is beneficial. There were able to go around the city without we being accompany them, they could speak

01:04:05.080 - 01:04:17.490

Chinese, and they could get on public transportation and talk to people in the streets and trying to go places they want visit, the things they want, doing the things they want.

01:04:18.310 - 01:04:33.670

And also, we, we, we, we teach them early on to be kind of an open minded towards different races and being able to be in China to kind of

01:04:34.370 - 01:04:53.170

witness that different exposure culture actually enrich their life, and so it’s pretty consistent with the way that we were trying to educate them from the very beginning. That's good. Um, so now moving on to your of your

01:04:53.840 - 01:05:06.110

experiences in Houston you came to Houston after the companies merged with Anadarko or with um— With Kerr McGee. With Kerr McGee, yes.

01:05:07.860 - 01:05:20.780

Yeah. It's fairly complicated. Yeah. So, um, could you kind of describe your involvement with your– with the community nowadays? With the community nowadays is

01:05:20.780 - 01:05:40.360

that really we, I and my wife, we kind of split up our community responsibility. I was more involved with— I am more involved with kind

01:05:41.200 - 01:05:56.650

of community but related, also relate to my profession. And my wife, she is taking of kind of a general community facing type of community involvement. So we split up, and that's part of the

01:05:56.650 - 01:06:16.160

reason why my involvement is is kind of always was is Chinese American Petroleum Association, CAPA, or North America-American Geoscience-North America Chinese

01:06:16.670 - 01:06:30.460

Geoscientists Association. It's kind of more profession related. Okay, so how did you become involved with the Chinese American Petroleum Association or CAPA? Yeah, I think that's another long

01:06:30.460 - 01:06:48.500

story. We, when-when the company moved us, moved us down to Houston late in 1999. And so by the time in year 2000,

01:06:49.200 - 01:07:06.120

we find our house and move the hou— or move the family and kind of trying to re-establish, trying to reach out, trying to re-make our connections. And one of my co-workers introduced

01:07:07.390 - 01:07:25.640

me to this CAPA organization, and we started to attend CAPA activities. And CAPA being a professional association, it really not only organizes professional related activities, it

01:07:26.220 - 01:07:43.490

also organizes member activities that are suitable for family to attend Like for every year, they have a spring picnic, and they have several luncheon-luncheon

01:07:46.210 - 01:07:59.660

type of meetings and they invite people, not necessarily from petroleum industry, a lot of times they-they invite people on for topics is how to manage your wealth, how

01:08:00.290 - 01:08:20.330

to invest, how to kind of enrich your life with paintings or calligraphy, so, so not only professional activities, there is also family oriented activities. So it is very easy for us to

01:08:20.810 - 01:08:38.050

join them and start attending activities, because we just moved down to Houston, and we'll try to make our new friends and trying to reach out to different places. Start attending their activities.

01:08:38.750 - 01:08:51.640

And we like the way this association operates. So we started to join as a member. And by the time it gets to 2001,

01:08:52.650 - 01:09:11.540

they said, “Jeff, we welcome you to join as a member, but we want you to contribute more. We want you to be the officer, to be part of the- this subcommittees and organize events and service

01:09:12.680 - 01:09:29.510

the members.” At that time I was thinking, “Man, I got have real time-full time job and no doubt his service will provide additional hours that I have to put in for volunteer society.” But

01:09:30.710 - 01:09:42.180

when I look at it, most of the people, they are all- they all have their daytime job. It's a, it's a group of really selfless people. And during the two

01:09:42.180 - 01:09:56.400

years of time that between 1991— year 2000 and 2001, I really made a few really, really good friends within the Association. And these are-these are friends I still keep contact

01:09:58.190 - 01:10:16.760

with. So they wanted me to step up borrow my, my, my time in service, so I said, “Okay, I could provide my time and service, but I don't want any title any titles with the

01:10:17.660 - 01:10:33.980

Association.” So, I start providing my time and service with the organization. By the time it gets to 2003, the-the president approached me and said, “Jeff,

01:10:36.560 - 01:10:52.720

just-just contribute your time is not good enough. We want you to be part of us. We want you to be officer.” And it was a very big struggle because I realized that when you get into

01:10:53.320 - 01:11:09.950

officers then, the only way is up. You cannot kind of gradually reduce your responsibility. This organization has a very good-it's a very good setup is that they have a

01:11:10.590 - 01:11:25.450

core team-core team is the core leadership team. The leadership Team is the first step is you become treasurer, treasurer of this organization.

01:11:26.420 - 01:11:43.700

And then by the time you fulfill your responsibility, next year, you've been promoted to Vice President. And after you serve as a vice president, you promoted to president. So it's kind of a commitment of a three years term that once you get

01:11:43.700 - 01:12:02.790

into the leadership team, and I need to kind of clarify why is this such a time consuming job is because at that time when I joined the group, we have members of about 1400 people.

01:12:03.590 - 01:12:21.160

Wow. That’s a lot. It's a-it's a huge, it's a huge Association. You could imagine, imagine whenever you organize activity, it is almost like a-almost like a full time job.

01:12:21.800 - 01:12:36.880

Imagine you organize activity with such a big population attending, and and the association actually evolved very quickly by the time. Speaking of now, we almost have 1800

01:12:38.920 - 01:12:52.870

members. It’s a huge, huge organization, it is also very successful organization. So speaking of that, they-they convinced me to be the treasurer.

01:12:53.550 - 01:13:12.930

So, by the time it gets to year 2005, I become the president, and so it’s a long answer. And after the Presidentship, they asked the

01:13:13.010 - 01:13:30.560

past president to step into the board of directors and that's a-that's another topic. Okay. So you made the journey of a treasurer to Vice President to President, and then you

01:13:30.560 - 01:13:41.800

stepped into the board of directors. Um, what did you do as— ? Um, I mean, obviously as a treasurer, you just manage finances but what do you do as a vice president or president or

01:13:41.800 - 01:13:53.780

as a member of the board of directors? Yeah. The Vice President is of course is is help-help the president keeping things organized and get things executed.

01:13:55.450 - 01:14:08.750

Particular responsibility for the Vice President is that the-the association has an annual meeting. The annual meeting is for technical meetings. So this annual meeting is

01:14:08.750 - 01:14:23.950

almost like a professional meeting. Where are you you are you sending the meeting brochure early on and ask for people to submit abstract for their presentation, and you organize

01:14:25.890 - 01:14:43.640

technical program. You go program usually have attendance of 200 to 300 members. For technical meeting. And the technical meeting usually is a one day meeting with the keynote

01:14:43.640 - 01:14:56.710

speeches in the morning. Con-current technical sessions of five to six in the afternoon. So you could-you could imagine it’s-it's almost like a presentation

01:14:59.510 - 01:15:11.620

close to 100 technical presentations, come up with the program and get the brochure ready, get the technical program ready, arrange a meeting place and

01:15:12.630 - 01:15:29.070

All sorts of things. All sorts of things from the meeting menu and then in the meeting itself, provides coffee and tea and lunch and stuff like that. And then reception, basically so the vice president’s

01:15:29.630 - 01:15:44.690

responsibility is that it organized the-for that specific year technical symposium, which I mentioned. And then the annual meeting, the annual meeting is where you pass on the torch.

01:15:45.100 - 01:16:01.440

It’s the transition, it’s a transition, usually is a dinner very close to the Chinese New Year time. So you might hold membership to a dinner. And then the the the

01:16:02.420 - 01:16:20.650

executive committee presented what has been done for this year with the Association. And then-And then during the dinner you elect president of next year, Vice President next year, Treasurer next year.

01:16:21.340 - 01:16:30.620

And of course, in tradition is that if you have done a good job as a treasurer, then they-they elect they elect you into vice president.

01:16:31.150 - 01:16:47.070

Done good job, then the vice presidential elected as president. And so usually again is a dinner banquet or get together about- around 200-250 people.

01:16:47.070 - 01:16:59.470

It’s a huge event and then-and then the rest of you have some subcommittees to help you. So vice president is mainly helping the president.

01:16:59.750 - 01:17:17.290

And then once you become a president, then you are, you are no doubt a fi-figurehead of the association, you know, association to all outside entities, and you'll also be the person

01:17:17.700 - 01:17:33.690

kind of responsible for the success and failure of the organization for the specific year. Okay. Then you said you were also a part of the North American Chinese Geoscientist

01:17:33.690 - 01:17:48.600

Association. What kind of work— what do you do with that association? This association is really most of members-most of our members are in academia.

01:17:50.280 - 01:18:09.780

These are group of geoscientists among Chinese American geoscientists that is working kind of like US, US or Canadian Geological Survey or

01:18:11.040 - 01:18:31.060

American universities or Canadian universities. So a lot of them are researchers, a lot of them are professors. So there are a lot more academic. The CAPA Association is more kind of industrial

01:18:32.670 - 01:18:46.510

oriented. Getting to the area of oil and gas business or energy business. It's most America Chinese Scientists Association is more like

01:18:47.430 - 01:19:00.640

professors, researchers working in the-in the in a-in - in the public services agency. So they are

01:19:00.640 - 01:19:12.710

different. Okay. All right. So now we're going to move into the COVID-19, Coronavirus interview section. It's kind of a special section because the times are pretty

01:19:12.710 - 01:19:27.710

special and pretty significant. So how has the pandemic affected your daily life? Oh, it's — very much. It's almost like a-my daily life is totally upside down.

01:19:29.060 - 01:19:46.440

We, we really, rarely go out now. Unless it’s-unless it’s absolutely necessary, like, for grocery shopping. We have no choice but going out.

01:19:47.240 - 01:20:09.150

I know there are kind of online services like Instagram Insta-cart or delivery to door type of service, but it's just different because when you- when you need to pack a meat or when you

01:20:09.150 - 01:20:25.700

need to have some apples or you need to have something… you just have to see them. Yeah and then feel them and buy them. So unless it’s necessary we don't go out, other

01:20:25.700 - 01:20:42.560

than grocery shopping, doctor’s visit, we don't really go out much anymore. Okay. Um, how has the pandemic changed your perspective about the future? How society will change?

01:20:44.240 - 01:20:58.320

Well, actually, to me, I think not much in terms of long term. Okay. Yeah. Because if you look back in history,

01:20:59.980 - 01:21:23.860

we had been through Spanish Flu, SARS, Ebola, N1H1. And, and we always-we always overcome. I think the situation will get back to its normal-normalcy, once the vaccine arrives,

01:21:24.940 - 01:21:37.530

don’t know when, but eventually it will. So I think we will eventually overcome and prevail. That’s very positive thinking.

01:21:38.140 - 01:21:50.550

Um, have you engaged in— Don’t-don't you agree? Yes, I definitely do think so about like the entire situation will be better, but just kind of some people just don't think that even

01:21:52.250 - 01:22:04.690

with a vaccine, many people, I think think that we still might need to maintain social distancing or more people will be more inclined to wear masks, or stay at home from work if they're more sick than usual just because of this entire

01:22:04.690 - 01:22:17.590

situation has affected everybody in the country. Right right right. Yeah. Speaking of that, I agree with you that certain-certain things probably forever changed.

01:22:19.810 - 01:22:38.710

But hopefully, these are-these are probably minor things. Like, for instance, people will probably change habits of handshaking. But we're coming from the Oriental

01:22:39.180 - 01:22:57.280

society, we tend to bow as our—. So there is a very, very, there are- there are different ways of saying “hi”, are there different ways of showing your- showing your friendliness.

01:22:58.510 - 01:23:13.560

So, so yeah, certain things will change forever but they don't-they don't bother me that much. Yes. So have you engaged in any active response activities regarding the outbreak such as

01:23:13.560 - 01:23:29.450

any like volunteering or fundraising? Volunteering is a lot more difficult now because you don't go out, you stay at home. But we-we did participate early on with the-with

01:23:30.990 - 01:23:46.180

the fund raisings or or donate or any money or mask toward Wuhan. But now it's very little involvement. It's all in the early days.

01:23:47.260 - 01:24:02.080

Early days in -n February and March. Mhm. So how much of your daily life is conducted through digital communication tools and how do you think it's different from personal in person communicational

01:24:02.080 - 01:24:22.670

experiences? Well, now almost everything-everything in my daily life is, they are committed-they are conducted with digital electronic device now. And in terms of the difference, I think for

01:24:24.500 - 01:24:42.880

the person that you are communicating with, if you have at least met them once before, it really doesn't make much difference. For the person that you have never met;

01:24:44.010 - 01:24:57.270

and, and then– then you have to conduct communication or business through phone or videoconference, it– it kind of is

01:24:57.270 - 01:25:14.230

kind of challenging you to understand this person first, and you can communicate with him digitally. Um, so, what do you miss most about the life before the pandemic?

01:25:16.900 - 01:25:30.870

Well, of course you know I'm a very out door type of person. I like sports. I like outdoor activities. So of course I miss all the outdoor activities.

01:25:32.720 - 01:25:44.000

I miss very much of that. And in terms-in terms of people to people interaction. I missed the eye-contact. I miss the

01:25:44.190 - 01:25:58.560

handshake part. So, yeah. Um, and then now relating to as a Asian American or as an Asian, how do you

01:25:58.620 - 01:26:16.000

think the pandemic has impacted others, other people's views of Asians and Asian Americans? Unfortunately, I think there is- there's some, there's some impact.

01:26:16.000 - 01:26:37.340

In terms of the view on Asian-Asians or Asian Americans, Asian, American-Chinese. But hopefully this is only to a very small-small group of people and,

01:26:39.040 - 01:27:01.100

and due largely to the influence of politicians irresponsible comments. So I'm hoping that this type of negativities or negative views will

01:27:01.320 - 01:27:18.300

go away as, as COVID-19 is behind us. In time it'll gradually restore the right image of Asians

01:27:19.960 - 01:27:33.650

and or Asian Americans. And you mentioned very early on in this interview that that you think there's a major culture shock now because of the pandemic. Could you kind of expand on what you meant by that?

01:27:35.540 - 01:27:56.970

Yes. The culture shock to me of this one is comes in several different fronts. The first one is that the current economy of of US, I did not

01:27:56.970 - 01:28:14.390

realize the economy of US is especially is its makeup workforce is so shallow. Like only with a few, only with a

01:28:14.390 - 01:28:27.660

few weeks of not going to work that that alot of families, millions of families have run out of their savings.

01:28:29.010 - 01:28:45.220

And even have trouble providing food on the table. This is a completely cultural shock. This is almost like a— to me this only happens in the third world country. And we' re talking about

01:28:46.150 - 01:29:03.780

America is its deemed as the number one nation of the world. So that's the first culture shock. The first one. The second one, that I mentioned is that I realized that Americans, they tend to allow

01:29:04.190 - 01:29:22.160

each individual to pursue-to be self-centered, to pursue self-happiness. But I was thinking of the quality, the general quality and-and the education of the

01:29:22.710 - 01:29:43.560

Americans is setting a bar that is never too low in such a way that even though they pursue self-happiness, they will-they will not disregard other’s safety

01:29:44.190 - 01:30:01.040

or other people's rights or privilege. And during this COVID-19 pandemic, I was really, really surprised to see people come out in protest of this stay

01:30:01.360 - 01:30:20.760

at home policy with with slogans says that with slogans says that “I need a haircut.” And what slogan says that “open up and let the

01:30:20.830 - 01:30:37.710

weak die”. And totally— This is totally a cultural shock to me. I was thinking in general, the bar of the quality of Americans is set pretty high.

01:30:38.920 - 01:30:56.000

These are people is generally, generally courteous and are polite and, and wealthy. But I totally— that that image or that protest totally changed my view.

01:30:57.510 - 01:31:11.990

And I could imagine people go out in protest, say, “open up, I need to work.” “I need to feed the family.” Never realize people go out and say, “Open up.

01:31:13.460 - 01:31:30.220

I need a haircut. Open up, let the weak die.” So it's just-just totally blow my mind. Mhm. Alright, so just kind of wrapping up the rest of this interview, how would

01:31:30.220 - 01:31:47.590

you identify yourself? Asian American, Asian, Chinese American, Taiwanese American? I will identify myself as Chinese American. As Chinese American with deep

01:31:47.590 - 01:32:04.270

roots in in Chinese, in Chinese culture. Mhm. Um and what are your hopes for the Asian American community or Chinese

01:32:04.270 - 01:32:20.150

American community in the US? My hope for the– for the Asian American, Chinese American is that you need to you need to

01:32:20.150 - 01:32:33.880

work hard, need to work hard and be success. But I also think that for the most of the younger

01:32:34.010 - 01:32:54.820

generation, they need to, they need to be prepared. They need to be prepared to develop-develop the capability so that they could step up, step up to the leadership type of position, or

01:32:55.180 - 01:33:11.680

step up to lead the initiatives. Um, in general, there is a typical image of the Asian American or Chinese Americans about being a group of people that are very good

01:33:12.720 - 01:33:31.400

in in technical work. College. But this is a group of people who can only be a supporting staff or follower, but not

01:33:31.440 - 01:33:47.050

leaders. I think, I think the younger generation definitely need to shake off that image and and seize every opportunity to step up, become a leader, or take

01:33:47.620 - 01:34:01.350

the leadership to start any initiatives. And get involved in the US political system and try to join the mainstream, become the mainstream of the

01:34:01.350 - 01:34:15.430

political power force. Uh, don’t be a group of voiceless people. Definitely. So do you have any advice for future generations or anything you would tell

01:34:15.480 - 01:34:33.510

your great-great-grandchildren if they were to find this Archive? Yeah, that’s a very interesting question. To me, again, I would advise that the younger generation to work hard

01:34:34.950 - 01:34:48.030

and leave nothing on the table. Never give up. Never concede. If you have to fail, as I said early on, let your competitor beat

01:34:48.720 - 01:35:02.600

you. If you must fail, then let the competitor beat you; don’t just throw in the towel yourself. And never concede. And in terms of if I have to tell my

01:35:04.060 - 01:35:25.080

uh great-great-children, great-great-grandchildren something, I would tell them “Hello.” “I am your great-great-grandfather. I’m speaking from a time of the

01:35:25.080 - 01:35:47.350

21st century. And personally I strongly believe there is a, there is a responsibility or there is a mission in terms of passing down in terms of heritage. I think the mission of each generation is

01:35:47.350 - 01:36:05.590

that you need to work hard and provide and improve— and improve or better environment for the next generation. And for me, I think I work hard and pretty much fulfill my mission.

01:36:06.850 - 01:36:21.700

Now, it’s your turn to do the same. And I think, you can do better than I do. So work hard.

01:36:23.850 - 01:36:41.280

And never give up.” Very nice. Um, is there anything else you would like to add that we haven’t already mentioned? Oh I think, really appreciate that Rice Univ-University is providing this

01:36:42.290 - 01:36:55.040

opportunity, and I particularly appreciate that Rice University and the students or interns are devoting their time

01:36:55.040 - 01:37:16.040

and efforts to do this Asian American Archive. And I think this is a very, very valuable thing. And I wish you and the organization every success in keeping the work, keep

01:37:16.040 - 01:37:27.930

up the good job. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving us your time and answering all the questions for the Archive. Um in that case, thank you for your time, and we’ll just conclude the interview here.

01:37:29.000 - 01:37:34.360

Okay. When you turn off the recording, I do have a question to ask you. Sure. Okay.