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Today is September 23, 2020. My name is Helen Pu and today I will be interviewing pastor Jason Tarn from Houston Chinese church on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University.

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Thank you so much for joining us today again, and let's start with your childhood. So where were you born? I was actually born here, Houston, Texas. So born actually close to the—I was

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actually born at the the Women's Hospital, so very close to the campus. And I grew up in the Fondren Southwest area, and then eventually in Meyerland, so that's, you know, again, this whole area going-going to the Rice campus was-was part of my childhood.

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I, you know, remember doing Chinese school, actually, there was a Chinese school that held classes on the Rice campus on Saturday mornings, that was my first exposure to the campus.

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And then, you know, those summer enrichment courses. I don't know if you guys still offer that, there probably still is. There's so yeah, but yeah, I grew up here in Houston.

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My parents were here. They came to Houston because of the oil and gas industry, both of them were working in oil and gas.

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And-and yeah, just kind of in this area I grew up at—I went to high school—I went to Bellaire High School. So again, close by that's-that's kind of this whole area is kind of my

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stomping ground. Yeah. And do you have any siblings? Yes, I do. Older brother, three years older than me, currently living in Oakland, California.

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So he is, he's there with his wife, two kids. So I have a-a nephew and a niece. And so yeah, just one-one brother. And for myself, I have a wife.

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I have been married 15 years. And we have a nine year old daughter, who's in fourth grade right now. And we are actually expecting um our

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second child, a daughter, at the end of this year. I—did you know that? Oh, you heard? Yeah. That's a huge surprise, God answered prayer.

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We have been long, desiring to expand our family. And so in of 2020 of all years, everything crazy going on. The Lord provided

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for us a child who should be here by the end of the—end of the year. scheduled for the end of December. So another daughter, we found out so pretty excited about that. Oh my gosh, Well, congratulations on that.

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Yeah, I appreciate it. Um, so did your—was your brother also born in Houston? He was born in San Antonio. I think they're—my parents came

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here for graduate school. They came from Taiwan. So that's where they grew up. Both of them born in mainland China.

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Born toward—during-during the war, during World War II, both sets of grandparents were either working for or connected with the Kuomingtang, the Chiang Kai-Shek’s Nationalist Party, and

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so they had to flee. So both my parents, you know, tell the story of when they were small children, they-they, with their families fled to Taiwan. And so they were born in-born in China,

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but their-their upbringing, you know, their-their childhood, would all be in Taiwan, in Taipei. They both went to Taida, the University of Taipei and then for undergrad.

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They separately—and they didn't know each other back then. But they met when they were in Bowling Green in Ohio, so that that's where they first came to the States.

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And eventually they did their graduate studies, met, got married, both in oil and gas, eventually going to San Antonio first, and then Houston. And so my brother was born there.

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They only lived there for a few years. And they settled in Houston, and that's where I was born. Yeah. And I was born in '79. So that was, you know, still during a time where I think it—right

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before I think there was kind of some-some a big, uh you know, there's a downturn in terms of the economy for oil and gas, but they came in and they all settled in and-and-and fortunately, they were able to still stay

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stable during that time. So no, that's my childhood. They both went to the same school in Taipei. They didn’t know each other—

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Yes, but they didn't know each other. I think they're-they're a few years apart, and they met when they were in Bowling Green. And then my dad did another degree in Virginia

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at the University of Virginia. And then eventually, I think his first job after that was in San Antonio, and then-and then here in Houston. Do you know why they wanted to go to undergrad and grad school in America?

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Yeah, well, for grad school, yes, undergrad was all it was all-all in Taiwan. But for the-for the grad school, I think it was just for them. Further opportunities. It was my—yeah, so both of

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them, they had an older sibling who already did something similar. Yeah. So- so both of them are not the oldest in their family. And they both had a sibling already here.

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And that was, I think, what helped them to be able to come here, as well. And so yeah, they each had a sibling that kind of, you know, felt things out kind of really made it an attractive option for

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them. And so they were fortunate enough to be able to-to-to get in and, you know, this is all you after '65, where they're allowing more immigrants from-from East Asia come-to come for further education.

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And so yeah, so they-they were fortunate enough to do that. And then yeah, and then they-and they met and married-married in Ohio, I believe, yeah married in Ohio and then

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eventually became Texans, and they've just kind of been-been settled here in Texas. Since the late 70s. Yeah. Cool. Um, so how would you describe like the neighborhood that you grew up in?

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I know that you grew up in like Fondren area and then Meyerland. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up basically. Yeah so Fondren and Braeswood, around that area,

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actually closer to West Bellfort. So, um, we, uh, so I guess the closest like, elementary school would probably be Fondren.

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I don't know, that's the middle school. It was like Welch Middle School and Fondren Middle School—anyways, so those are kind of the schools I can remember. But anyway, that area. Yeah, I was there all the way until I

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was—we lived there until I was in fifth grade. That area, I think the reason we eventually moved was there—we eventually are like,

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I think the overall—there's, you know, Houston not much zoning. Right. So in terms of just different areas, developing differently. So at first it was just these-these suburban neighborhoods.

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And then it became more commercialized, and then a lot of apartment complexes being built up. And so it got to a point where I think our home got broken into like three times. And by the third

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time, my dad was like, Alright, let's-let's-let's move to another area. And we eventually moved to the Meyerland area.

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I was actually, I never actually went to the public elementary school. I actually went to St. Thomas Episcopal, which is, you know, close there, close to Meyerland. Yeah. So I went there actually for elementary school.

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And so that was kind of—you know, I-I never really experienced the-the neighborhood community in that sense. I mean, I was always just commuting straight to that private school.

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My brother did go to Welch Middle School. So he had a better feel of kind of the community in that sense, but for me, it was—by the time we moved to Meyerland, I was still at-at St. Thomas. And I didn't start going to the public

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school system until Middle School. And that was kind of my first exposure to be getting a more accurate feel of the neighborhood community. So um, yeah, so that-that

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wouldn't be for me until sixth grade, and I went to Johnston Middle School, which is now called Oh, you did? Really? Did you go to Bellaire as well? No. I went to Carnegie.

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My brother goes to Bellaire. That's right. Yeah. So yeah, was it still called Johnston or did they change it to Meyerland? My year it was Johnston. I think, like a year or two after I left, they changed it to

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Meyerland. Wow. Yeah, I mean, that's right. Because yeah, you guys lived—I mean because your mom was teaching that over at Kolter, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Wait were you there for the arts, too, or? Yeah, I was-I was in a symphony band. Yeah, I was playing—playing the percussion. Yeah.

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Yeah. I was there for dance and piano. It was an interesting middle school experience. Definitely. Oh, wow. Okay, awesome. So I guess after you moved to Meyerland, did you

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have more like neighborhood friends? Since you did move to public school? Yeah, yeah. So definitely there was-was my first real like—yeah, you know, I mean, it was

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a good experience for me in terms of—Well, again so I went to a elementary school, that's a small private school. I mean, you know, St. Thomas, actually, you probably know some-some people that went to St.

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Thomas, right? I mean, I think I was probably one of the only minorities you know, in my-in my actual like, class. Yeah, if there was a minority group, it would probably be Asians. Yeah, it's great.

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Asians and then Caucasians are probably like, really—if I'm looking at, if I think about the yearbook, that's pretty much what you would see. And so me and maybe like, two others, and one of them was my cousin. You know, in my grade,

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we're the only minorities and we were the Asians. So most of my friends were, you know, Caucasian, I didn't have that many—and I wasn't going to church yet. I wasn't going to HCC at

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that time. I can tell that story in a little bit. So it was actually when I went to Johnston, that was the first experience for me to make some friends with other Asian Americans. And also just a

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good mix of-of-of friends there. So yeah, I did appreciate that. And a number of them were in the neighborhood. So yeah, we had

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fun. I mean, I think it was-it was a time where, I guess generationally, my parents were, you know, they're the generation like very different than even me right now. I'm a lot more protective—me and my wife are a lot more protective of our

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daughter where like, they would just let me go. I would-I would ride my bike to school every day and after school, we're just out and about riding around and around with-with other neighborhood kids. Godwin Park was my

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life. That was my hangout, you know, we'd always be playing around there. So, um, yeah, so yeah, so definitely, that was a first experience to really feel out living-living in a little

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neighborhood kind of a thing. Where, um, yeah, Johnston was more of that experience. Actually, when-when I went to Bellaire, then I think I fell more into that Asian bubble at Bellaire. Because you can right, there's so many other Asian students that I kind of

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now looking back, I kind of regret the fact that I—because it is probably because it was so easy. I just like slipped right into that Asian American bubble where I didn't really-yeah, I didn't really expand out of

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that anymore. And that-and that kind of looking back I'm like, yeah, and I-I do look fond—I look at-look back fondly at my time in middle school, where I felt like there was a wider experience for me in terms of my-my-my circle of friends.

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Yeah, that's true. And how was that like transition going from predominantly Caucasian elementary school—private elementary school to that diverse public school? Yeah, so I think, yeah, I was actually okay.

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Um, I mean, it was probably just being in a public school setting, which is a little different, you know, where like, you're not just in this little small class, you know everyone . And then there's, like, you have the like—there's a

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much larger body of students, and then you have to actually, like, move around, you know, versus private school you just stay in a classroom, everyone comes to you. And also, you know, and then also the—and then also just the experience of like,

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there's in-in-in middle—at Johnston and at Bellaire, there's like the honors track, you know, and then there's the other, you know, the regular track, and I think that kind of, or like—there wasn't that kind of demarcation, you know,

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in a small private school, where every-everyone's on the same level, but now you're like—and then-and then, you know, for me, if I was in the honors track I'm feeling a sense of pride, and then I'm only hanging out with these people, and then I don't really know, all the regular

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students. And so all of that dynamic that, you know, was new to transition into, which, you know, you know, I mean, some of that's good in terms of challenging education, but also some of that's bad in terms of, you know, creating a more, you know, a classism

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within-within these- within these schools. I mean, but then I know, I fell into that in terms of that, that-that mentality, Right. And did you ever experience any, like discrimination as a

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minority in—at St. Thomas or in public school? Not—yeah, not at St. Thomas. I experienced that more starting at Johnston.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I do remember vividly times of being picked on by-by other students. Not always, majority culture students, not always Caucasians, it could be other minority groups,

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being-being-being picked on but-but um—and then also, I remember vividly, I had a friend who was himself an immigrant, so you know, his parents came to the States, us, you know, not that long ago.

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At that point. So his attitude, he still had an accent, right. So his English wasn't as-as proficient as mine. And also his-his name, his first name was, you know, what was still just transliteration of his

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Chinese name. And so I remember him being picked on. And me trying to like defend him as well.

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And then me just getting—and then it-it came on to me as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so definitely, those were experiences where yeah, I remember just feeling a righteous anger where he's being, you know, he got it even worse because of his name and of his

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accent. So that at least I could like, you know, hang in terms of the conversation, but-but yeah, but then, but at the same time, even-even without that, you know, my own just, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, always ask, you know, always being asked, like, you

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know, Oh, so you know, you must know Kung Fu. Oh, you know, hey-hey-hey Bruce Lee, you know, they would always call—you know, I think that was like the default calling you Bruce Lee. I don't know what girls experienced.

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But guys, I was like, yeah, that's your nickname you're Bruce Lee. And-and there's a lot of assumptions in that way. So yeah, I-I definitely do recall that. I think at Bellaire, it was there.

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But because there were so many Asians, and because we just kind of stuck to ourselves. I was, you know—there was a lot of segregation. You know, I mean, the Bellaire cafeteria, I mean, everyone is just

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like segregated into your own— And so I didn't-I didn't feel it as much probably because I was able to escape in that bubble. Right, I think even still now. And yeah, I think even still now, Bellaire is very kind of

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segregated, like with my brother, all his friends are Asians. Even his like, there's like two of his friends who are mixed, which is like, a little more diversity, but not that much. They're still mixed Chinese.

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Yeah, interesting. And how has those like experiences impacted you? Especially at such a young age? Yeah. So I think definitely, like, a-a-a second generation kind of Asian American

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experience. I went through that, you know, time of identity struggle, wanting to be white. I mean, definitely, I think it's a common experience of like, knowing that all that-that I—especially, you

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know, growing up where most of my classmates were all white. It's not that I ever—that I didn't realize I was-I was Chinese American. Um, but definitely, you know, so it wasn't like, I didn't

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realize there's differences, you know, I-I clearly realized, especially when at St. Thomas, I don't know, if you're aware like, we do Scottish dancing, right? Did you know that we have-we had to

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do that? And so like, there's always this performance every year, that the students would have to do the performance. And I remember, it's always a boy and girl paired up.

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And pretty much every year, it's me and my cousin. She's-she's-she's, you know, the same grade, and she's one of the few Asian girls in the other class. And we—I always was paired up, I was

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never—and then if it wasn't her, it was this other Asian girl. I was never paired up with a Caucasian girl, it was always me either my cousin or that other girl. And, so like, you know,

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now, I didn't really think much of it. But now looking back, I'm like, man, like, they, I mean, all those years I was there. I always consistently—just pair up the Asian kids.

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So even little things like that, obviously. So it wasn't as if, like I-I that time I didn't really think about that, I wasn't at all resentful of that at all.

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But-but those are things that I still remember. And I think those are little subtle things where, yeah, I definitely had that-that experience of-of not wanting to stand

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out and wanting to be more white like most people that I had around me. So that was probably still more of a elementary middle school struggle. I think by the time I got to Bellaire, and that

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was the same time I was getting more involved at HCC. Then I became to-become more like comfortable being Chinese American, and I was able to find those-those friend groups that were

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predominantly Chinese American, and so that kind of helped me just to be more comfortable with-with who I am. So yeah, actually going to—starting going to church at HCC and going to Bellaire was pretty much around the same time.

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I started going to church like towards the end of middle school, but really getting involved was like high school. Yeah, so-so it was-it was then I started becoming more comfortable with who I was as-as a Chinese-

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Chinese American, um, but prior to that, it's you know, I mean, I went to Chinese school, like I said earlier, you know, I did do kara—Kung Fu classes, you know, a part of the Chinese school, I went to uh, what is it called?

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Evergreen-evergreen in English I forget the Chinese name for it, but it used to meet at—used to meet at Rice and then-and then it's meet—I don't if it still is, they used to meet at Strake Jesuit over by Chinatown.

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Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was that Chinese school that I was a part of. And so you know, I-I did Chinese school, I did Kung Fu classes. So all those typical, like, cultural things, yeah.

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And then my parents were involved with the community center-the Qiaojiao Zhongxin. I think that's the name of it. Yeah. So you know, I remember, you know, we would do things, you know,

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there some times and, you know, for festivals, before we got more involved in church, that would be the kind of thing if we did any kind of Chinese celebrations for holidays, it would be kind of with that community center, some of my parents, friends and

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connections they have there. Yeah, so kind of speaking on that, like, what was it like inside your home? Like, what was the family structures? Any traditional cultures?

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Yeah, so um, yeah, I mean, culturally, gonna to be very similar to a lot of Chinese American homes. Both parents worked, so both—it was a, it was a double income home.

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So my mom was—my mom was working full time. Grandparents, paternal grandparents were there so that when I came home from school, through the carpool, through a carpool system with other parents, there was at least if it wasn't my mom doing the carpool, but I don't

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know how she arranged that back then. But then then it was my grandparents waiting for me when I got home. So grandparents, they didn't ever live with us, but they were here in Houston.

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Okay. And so they were involved in my upbringing as well, kind of being like, you know, the-the sitters before my parents finally got home.

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And then-and then, and then my-my dad would always be around to with eat with us, or my dad was you drive them home, and then come back, and then we then we have family time. So parents, you know, stable-stable kind of childhood in that sense.

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Parents were always together. Um—culturally, we didn't—they always spoke to each other in Chinese. I think they tried probably, to speak to us in Chinese, but we—me and my brother just probably rebelled against that.

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I don't know. But eventually, they were very flexible. So they never required us to reply back to them in-in Mandarin. So their attempt was just to send us to Chinese

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School, which, it was a poor student . And I-I always kind of rebelled against really like doing well in that, because I just didn't want to be there. I wanted to be at home watching Saturday morning cartoons .

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Um, but yeah, so that's what that's why, you know, my-my language skills are pretty subpar. I can understand it far better than I can-I can speak it so-so I can—If it's basic conversation, I know what my parents are

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saying. Even at church, I know what people are saying, basically, but if it goes into any more detail, it completely-completely loses me, especially if they start talking about like-like-like-like Christian things and chur-Bible things.

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I mean, I don't know. I don't know that vocabulary, right? But with my parents, they will speak to each other in Chinese. But to me and my brother it actually would be predominantly in English so maybe a little-little Chinglish.

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But we don't— we'd always reply back in English. And then the other cultural things would be—I mean yeah, it was never a big deal. But we did celebrate Chinese New Year, you know, Mid-Autumn Festival, things like that, but

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little smaller things. It was not like we went really all out and if there was something going on in the community center, maybe we might get involved but we weren't like—I wouldn't say it was a

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very strongly like reinforced cultural kind of a thing. I don't think my parents for them they actually fairly westernized because of the fact that they both worked in corporate America, within-within, you know, the-those big oil and gas firms, you know,

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downtown so they're working in a context where they're having to use English all the time. They're very much accustomed at that point to like, this is this is you know, this is America and you're being raised

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in America so-so I would actually say they-they're fairly American—westernized in that sense. Obviously they stressed education, they stressed you know, doing well, but I—comparatively to

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some of my peers, I would still say my parents are probably more relaxed on that than some of my peers where, yeah, they brought home a B, I mean, it's like, it's over. For me, I brought home a B. They're like, yeah, yeah, you could probably do better.

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But yeah, I never felt like, I never felt like this overwhelming sense of like, I could never bring home anything less. You know, I mean, even though I know, that's what they wanted of me. And I sometimes was motivated for

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that. But I didn't get that-that stereotypical, like, you know, you're gonna get punished for bringing home anything less than an A plus kind of a thing. So, yeah, my parents are not

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stereotypical in that sense. I-I would say they're pretty hands off in that way, where obviously, they wanted me to succeed educationally. And then obviously, the career path I'm on now is not

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exactly what they had in mind. And, but they never really, and we could talk about that later. They never really—yeah, like, put their foot down in that way, especially as I started making

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some some career choices down the road. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And so your parents, I guess, because they were so pretty- relatively relaxed with your studies.

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Did you ever feel like— did you ever pressure yourself to do well? Were you like a self-disciplined kind of— So that-that would be where yeah the pressure would have to come from me. And I was

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always, I was probably a, like, a B plus, A minus student, I would say middle school and in high school. I was not like, you know, top ten percent or anything like that. I still got into the

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University of Texas, back when it was easier to get into. But, but yeah, so I mean, I was probably top quarter. It wasn't like top ten percent or anything like that. Yeah. Like I said, I'm probably a

00:26:49.400 - 00:27:01.890

B plus, A minus student. I don't think educationally I really got serious about it until actually college. And then my-my grades reflected that. But prior to that I-I-I wasn't as-as motivated

00:27:02.730 - 00:27:17.670

as I guess they probably wanted me to be. But I wasn't like a—I wasn't a failing student. Yeah, I think I was probably average compared to most other students, but maybe compared to the other Asian American, maybe I was still on the lower end.

00:27:17.670 - 00:27:24.580

Yeah, I definitely feel that too. It's like a good enough student. Yeah. Exactly. And I was okay with that.

00:27:24.920 - 00:27:33.510

And I've never got an overwhelming sense of pressure from my parents. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. How as the college application process for you?

00:27:34.250 - 00:27:46.550

What were your like, top schools? Yeah, my aspiration was to get out of Texas. So I think I really wanted to go to Columbia, because I want to—I wanted to go to New York, I wanted to, like live in New York,

00:27:46.550 - 00:28:00.670

because my senior year, I got a chance to go on a trip to New York for this school thing. And so, man, I was like, eyes open—like when I stepped in, I mean first time in Manhattan, I was like, whoa, this is awesome.

00:28:01.230 - 00:28:11.730

I've never experienced anything like this. And so I really wanted to get into Colombia. I-I-I didn't get in, my parents wanted me to apply to Stanford, because I think that

00:28:11.790 - 00:28:25.320

their dream for one of their sons to get into Stanford, and neither one of us got in. So I applied there as well. But everything else was-was pretty much Texas schools that I applied for. And UT

00:28:25.810 - 00:28:39.700

I-I-I kind of thought I was probably going to go there anyways, my brother was already there. Some of my church friends who were a grade above me, were already there. So I figured, yeah,

00:28:39.820 - 00:28:54.210

I'm okay with that. And that ended up being the-the—on my list, the highest one that I got back—I actually got accepted into so I ended up-ended up going to UT, but I would have totally

00:28:54.210 - 00:29:03.090

gone to Columbia, if I could. But, yeah, that's Ivy League school. I just didn't have the grades for it. Yeah, and what did you major in college?

00:29:03.140 - 00:29:17.130

I started off as a bio pre-med. So-so difficult. And honestly, I didn't know what to do at that time. And after one year of it, I was like, nah, this

00:29:17.920 - 00:29:29.650

is—I was doing okay academically, like-like I said actually my best academic years were those first two years of college. And so it wasn't because of the grades. It was just because I started thinking, wait a minute, I'm just

00:29:29.650 - 00:29:39.900

gonna be sitting here reading these big textbooks and memorizing stuff for the next like, eight years of my- of my life. Yeah, no, this is not-it's not what I wanted to do.

00:29:39.900 - 00:29:49.900

So I transferred to the business school, my second year, and really, I was just following the footsteps of my older brother. So he was a business major.

00:29:50.400 - 00:30:03.550

He was MIS management, management information systems. So that'- that's what I ended up doing as well. That's why I graduated with a business degree. Yeah. MIS.

00:30:03.550 - 00:30:13.800

And how did you like decide to go into MIS? Oh, yeah. Like I said, I was just, I was just copying him. I really didn't know what else to do. And so that's what he was doing.

00:30:14.400 - 00:30:26.700

And I was like, okay, yeah. So he had just—so he's three years older. So by the time I transitioned into it, my second year, he just graduated. And so he-he got a—he got a job at Shell.

00:30:27.910 - 00:30:37.010

And he came back to Houston, started working. And I'm like, okay, looks like yeah pretty easy to get a job. He told me how much he's getting paid. I'm like, oh, wow, okay, cool.

00:30:37.010 - 00:30:47.550

All right. That's your first job? Yes. All right. Okay, I guess I'll do it. So I mean, really nothing really inspirational. That's what I was aware of, because of what my

00:30:47.640 - 00:31:00.420

brother did. And so I just-I just applied for the same, I-I just applied for the business school, got in, and I just chose the same major he did. And I think overall, it still was a better fit for me in terms of being in the business school.

00:31:01.190 - 00:31:11.390

But honestly, if I could go back and do it all again, I would-I would actually do something like, in the humanities, I would actually be history or philosophy, or something like that. But obviously, that's all in hindsight.

00:31:11.470 - 00:31:26.970

Right, right. Okay, and how was the social adjustment for you in college? Uh, it was-it wasn't that bad, because of the fact that so many of my friends, either from high school friends or from church, we all just happen to be going to UT.

00:31:26.970 - 00:31:42.790

So I went in there already knowing a bunch of people and because of my-my brother being there, and just kind of going later on to-to the spiritual life, if I knew about,

00:31:43.080 - 00:31:57.770

which is now AACM, Asian American Christian Fellowship, but-but back then it was called Chinese Bible Study. So I knew that that was there. So I knew that that would be like a-a-a safety net of

00:31:57.900 - 00:32:13.040

friends. Because of the church friends that I had, that were at UT, were all a part of that fellowship. So it wasn't so much of like, a fear of not having friends or connections or felt—it

00:32:13.440 - 00:32:25.480

would actually it was actually me, like, at that point, wanting to kind of like, you know, even though I'm surrounded by all these people I know, I wanted to like, pioneer, like I want to go, you know, start

00:32:25.480 - 00:32:36.460

something different. I-I don't want to keep associating with you know, so that was kind of a little bit of a prideful attitude, initially. I didn't want to keep doing the same things that everyone else was doing once they

00:32:36.460 - 00:32:48.760

got to-to-to Austin. And so my first year, I wasn't as connected with some of those groups, even though my roommate was totally a-a church friend, grew up in a youth group.

00:32:48.760 - 00:33:00.130

He was my roommate. And so—and he was connected to all those circles. So I-I still had connections. But I-but I actually tried to-to forge like new friendships and try to kind of get out

00:33:00.130 - 00:33:15.710

of that initially. Eventually-eventually, I ended up straight up into all of that, but-but initially, I actually was trying to-to not, but-but in terms of, yeah, I just knew so many people already there by the time I got there to Austin.

00:33:15.710 - 00:33:27.470

Yeah. And I guess that brings us to like, your, like, I guess, growth in the church. So when did you start going to church? Yeah, so that was end of middle school. So eighth grade. Okay.

00:33:28.440 - 00:33:41.320

And that was through my brother first going, having been invited by church friends, and then I kind of tagged along as well. Okay. And was this HCC?

00:33:41.800 - 00:33:56.150

Yes, at HCC. So, yeah. So, youth group was my first experience. And then I started—Oh okay I'm sorry, I started going at the, I’m sorry, end of-end—at the very end of seventh grade.

00:33:57.030 - 00:34:12.030

And so the first thing they kept saying, you should really go to this thing called Discovery Camp. So Discovery Camp was the first like, real experience. So I just started going like towards the end of the school year, and then they kept pushing.

00:34:12.550 - 00:34:20.850

Yeah you should go to Discovery Camp, Camp. I'm like alright, cool. So that was the first time I was really exposed to Christianity, like

00:34:20.850 - 00:34:32.120

having someone explained to me what is Christianity all about, what is the gospel of Jesus, those type of things. That's the first time I made any kind of profession of faith. And then it was eighth

00:34:32.120 - 00:34:48.060

grade. Kind of getting involved to some degree, but I didn't really get active until the high school youth group and then at Bellaire, because there was some crossover between some Bellaire friends and church friends.

00:34:48.090 - 00:34:59.830

That there was a few that were at Bellaire so that-that's kind of how I started getting even more connected. And so I would say I was a typical youth group kid in the high school years.

00:35:00.210 - 00:35:11.960

The only difference was just that my parents were just dropping me off at church, but I was there every Friday on Sundays as well, because I live so close to Meyerland. Like I live right—I grew up like really close to Kolter.

00:35:12.300 - 00:35:24.950

So it was like, so easy for my parents just to drop me off. Right, yeah. And so did you did your parents start going to church with you guys? No-no for them, their attitude was like, better-better to hang out at

00:35:24.950 - 00:35:42.010

church than anywhere else. Yeah. So they don't-don’t have any faith commitments. They're fairly secular in their-in their outlook. And they're just, you know, for them, they just thought it was a

00:35:42.470 - 00:35:55.070

wholesome environment for me to-to-to make some friends. And they never really thought it would take over my life in the way it has. Um because at that point,

00:35:55.070 - 00:36:08.540

they were just like, yeah, it just-it's just a good place for him to make some good friends. Right. Yeah. And, um, how was it just like, you know, going to a Chinese church specifically? Yeah so, I mean, that was the most like

00:36:08.540 - 00:36:20.100

experience of Chinese people, you know? Yeah like oh wow. It's—that was, like I said earlier, it was helpful in me fully coming to appreciate my

00:36:20.100 - 00:36:32.560

identity as-as a Chinese American, to be in there, and no longer being like ashamed of being of-of-of being Chinese. So yeah, I think-I think that with also the friend groups that

00:36:32.560 - 00:36:47.430

I had at Bellaire was-was-was formative in that. Yeah. So I mean, I think the only downside is that like, like I said earlier, like, then my-my circles got really uniform.

00:36:48.770 - 00:37:00.260

And in-even in college, they were still fairly uniform, even though I tried to branch out initially, but even when I was branching out, I was still hanging out with other Asian Americans, just not churchgoing ones.

00:37:00.260 - 00:37:16.850

Yeah. But then eventually, when I started getting—so there was a period of time I kind of walked—kind of not, walked away from the faith, but I was very distant from my faith. But then when I started really coming back to my faith, it was with those fellowships that

00:37:16.850 - 00:37:29.670

were, you know, Chinese American, and so it was good in-in many ways. But it-it was also limiting, as well, so. Yeah, so did you join the ministry at UT, like freshman year, or?

00:37:30.070 - 00:37:41.320

So no, not-nothing actively. So even though like that Chinese Bible study, which is AACM, I was never actively involved, I just had a whole bunch of friends there. So sometimes I would show up.

00:37:41.630 - 00:38:00.570

I would say those were the two—my first two years of college, I was probably the furthest away from active involvement in any kind of personal faith, devotion, and also any organizational religion, whether it's church, or-or fellowship.

00:38:01.060 - 00:38:13.930

So even though I would occasion the church that most of my friends would go to, I would occasion the fellowship meetings, I was still a—I was actually on paper, I was part of a small group, I was just one of those members that rarely ever showed up.

00:38:15.120 - 00:38:31.560

And yeah, so that was kind of my first two years and I was trying to get— I was—I mean I was more into, like, the party scene, the first two-two years. And it was really— it was-it was really the last two years of college, that was a very different

00:38:31.560 - 00:38:45.610

experience, when I got more involved in those those groups. And what like, kind of brought you back to those groups? I think it was just trying things that the world had to offer, that I thought would satisfy but

00:38:45.610 - 00:38:59.120

left me still very empty and disappointed. And so there were a lot of like, what as Christians we would call idols, not idols in terms of like, literal statues that we're bowing down to, but idols in

00:38:59.120 - 00:39:13.880

terms of like things of this world, things that the world has to offer, whether it's-whether it's relationships, whether it's just, you know, pleasure from-from just, you know, mind-mindless

00:39:13.950 - 00:39:29.060

pleasure and joy and just partying or whatever, all these things that I thought would make me feel more mature, and more like, and just satisfied. So whether it was the partying, whether it

00:39:29.060 - 00:39:44.400

was I was—I was in a relationship at the time, and I was actually doing—even though I was doing a lot of partying, I was actually doing really well academically for some reason, but that didn't even satisfy me either. And so I think all of those, what we would call idols and things that

00:39:44.430 - 00:40:01.870

I thought would-would give me a sense of purpose and identity and significance, were really like not-not meeting up to-to-to what it promised and I thought it was going to be better than that. And so—also there's just various

00:40:02.630 - 00:40:17.250

trials and hardships where I ended up just really disillusioned with the kind of the path I was going on. And I really think it was just God's goodness and grace to me that-that, yeah, kind of

00:40:17.250 - 00:40:32.480

really brought me back on track with Him personally in a relationship with Him and also in community with-with-with Christians. So like I said, my roommate at the time was always still involved-very involved in his faith

00:40:32.480 - 00:40:47.980

personally, and also organizationally, with those, with-with the church and with a fellowship. And so I do remember, those mornings I would wake up, and I would see him spending time reading his Bible, and praying, and I would be really annoyed.

00:40:49.220 - 00:41:00.950

I was like, just so annoyed that he'd be doing that, not because he was doing it to show off, not because he was at all, like he was living his life and living out his faith. We just happened to be in the same dorm room, so he

00:41:00.950 - 00:41:12.260

couldn't hide from me, and he couldn't hide that. But I just remember being so annoyed by that. But I think it was really God actually reminding me and convicting me like, hey, look, you see,

00:41:12.300 - 00:41:25.540

you know, that's-that's really a-a-a reminder of the kind of relationship that I want with you as well. And so I think He used that as a constant reminder for me. A roommate, he was just doing

00:41:25.540 - 00:41:40.200

his own thing, to be faithful in his own faith, not preaching to me, not like, you know, guilt tripping me. Him, just being faithful was enough for me to feel guilty into-and to deal with God. So God was gracious to me.

00:41:40.620 - 00:41:52.770

And I would say, yeah, my second half of college was a very different experience. And I started getting more actively involved in-in that church that a lot of my friends were going to, and also that fellowship.

00:41:53.450 - 00:42:01.190

Yeah. And so-was so your roommate was from HCC, right? Yeah, he was from HCC as well. Yeah, are you still friends with him now? Still friends with him now.

00:42:01.190 - 00:42:12.790

And he is also a pastor as well right now. Wow. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Awesome, and so where did you go after you graduated? Uh, so that's a great, interesting story.

00:42:12.790 - 00:42:30.330

So I—my first job was at Houston Chinese Church. So I-I graduated with a business degree. Um I was—I had-I had a job offer at PriceWaterhouseCoopers one of-one of the big—it was, is it still big five?

00:42:30.630 - 00:42:40.370

Is it big four? Big four now. Yeah, it used to be big six, and then it was big five and now it's big four. Okay, so that's where I got a job as a-as a business consultant,

00:42:41.270 - 00:42:51.780

I was set to go. You know, the-the way I got to that point was actually a struggle. Because at that point, in my walk, my faith journey, I was actually

00:42:53.420 - 00:43:10.400

not wanting to go into corporate America. I was, I went on this extended missions trip to East Asia, the summer after my junior year, and that opened up a world of possibilities for me, when it comes to Christian

00:43:10.400 - 00:43:24.370

missions, of dedicating my life, to sharing the love and the message of Jesus to peoples that may not have the same opportunities that-that we have here in the States.

00:43:24.860 - 00:43:39.210

And that was something that really caught my attention. And I started really feeling a tugging and an urging to want to do something like that after I graduated. That was the first time that me and my parents had conflict over my faith

00:43:39.210 - 00:43:49.070

commitments. Up to that point, like I said earlier, they were always supportive. They thought it was just a good, wholesome thing. Then I actually was gonna make a real life decision based on it.

00:43:49.450 - 00:44:04.230

And they're like, whoa, hold on hold on. What? Because my-my desire was, could I do this one year internship, where I live overseas, serving with this organization doing

00:44:04.230 - 00:44:16.390

some missionary work in East Asia. And in their minds, two factors. One is, we moved and, immigrated from there, so that you could be here.

00:44:16.760 - 00:44:30.090

What are you doing? And secondly, what are you doing because-because typically in missionary work, you would have to raise your own funding. You don't have a normal—you don’t have a salary.

00:44:30.490 - 00:44:43.200

So you would actually have to raise money to fund yourself. And they, my—especially my father could not abide that thought of me graduating from college with a degree that he helped pay

00:44:43.310 - 00:44:53.370

for. And then me turn around and start asking other people for money to support me. He's like, dude, get a job. Now you just grad—you're about to graduate.

00:44:53.870 - 00:45:06.470

I put you through college, not for you to go ask people for money but for you to be able to-to-to make a living for yourself. So It wasn't so much the, I don't think you should spread the message of Christianity that really didn't like that

00:45:06.470 - 00:45:21.780

wasn't it was more of like, how-how could you not be working? Right. What are you doing asking—So that was actually was—well, that was a struggle for-for him in particular. A long struggle for me that senior year of like, oh, what should I do?

00:45:21.860 - 00:45:37.770

Should I follow my faith, my-my-my Lord Jesus or should I honor my parents, you know, that-that-that typical struggle, and I-I ended up deciding I'm going to honor my parents wishes because really what they're asking for me to do is to try to work for a few

00:45:38.490 - 00:45:52.160

years. See-see how it feels. See if you like it. If you really aren’t unsatisfied after a few years, then let's talk about—so my parents are at least reasonable enough to— at least entertain the option down-down the road.

00:45:52.480 - 00:46:06.060

Yeah, so I came to the point where like, okay, I really want to do it now. But I mean, you know, it's not gonna, you know, God really wants me to do it, you know, the opportunity will be there. So I ended up interviewing, going through the whole interviewing process, got the job,

00:46:06.750 - 00:46:17.300

all planned out, all mapped out for me to go start working at the end of the summer, I—when I graduated. I was at camp, I was at Camp Impact. And guess who my roommate was?

00:46:17.330 - 00:46:26.320

I was a counselor, right? I was like, at that age I was-I was a senior counselor, being a counselor at camp. And my roommate was pastor Fred.

00:46:27.540 - 00:46:40.160

So back then we were at a-at a college campus. Did you ever go to that one? Well, we used to—we used to be at a college campus Blinn College. It wasn't at Forest Glen. No. it was—so it was at—So-so it was just me, is there's two counselors would

00:46:40.160 - 00:46:52.270

share a room together. So I'm in-I'm in a room for a whole week with Pastor Fred. And so he's asking me about, you know, my life and what am I doing? So he basically says, Oh, so I see what you're

00:46:52.380 - 00:47:04.990

doing. Your parents want you to at least have a job like, what are you actually getting paid? Well, you know, our youth pastor, the one that I grew up with, has recently moved on.

00:47:05.520 - 00:47:15.290

And we can't seem to find a youth pastor. And right now we're just offering one year internships, to work with the youth. Would you like to do that? You know, that's a job.

00:47:15.390 - 00:47:25.820

I'm like, Oh, yeah, that is a job. Doesn't pay much, but like, but then I-I at that point, I'm like, you know, thanks. But no, thanks. I already kind of have my next few years set.

00:47:26.250 - 00:47:37.720

I already told this other company that I'm gonna, you know, I'm about to fly out to start training and working for them. I prayed about it that night, that God, let Your will be done. Whatever You want for my life.

00:47:38.320 - 00:47:48.830

I'll tell you the crazy thing. Two weeks later, I get a phone call from the same recruiter. Very apologetically telling me I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

00:47:49.330 - 00:48:03.360

So I graduated in 2001. In Houston, that was when the Dot-Com bubble, you know, nationwide Dot-Com bubble was bursting, you know, back then all these, you know, getting these-these-these new startups, you know,

00:48:03.820 - 00:48:15.330

were happening. And then eventually, like it just—the bubble burst. So there was a lot of tech companies that were folding. And then we're in Houston, and then 2001 was Enron, that was when the Enron

00:48:15.330 - 00:48:28.610

scandal happened. And that caused a real downturn in the economy, especially in the tech industry, which was the consulting industry that I was going to be working in. And so there was

00:48:28.610 - 00:48:41.250

a lot of people's job offers being-being rescinded. Mine at least wasn't rescinded. It was just simply, they fr—they froze the-the hiring, and they pushed back everyone's start date to the next

00:48:41.550 - 00:48:54.120

year. Mm hmm. Okay, wow. So she was like, I really hope you had something to do for a year. The job's there for you a year from now. And I said, oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:48:54.270 - 00:49:01.540

I was probably the best phone call she had all day. Everyone else is probably upset. I was like, This is great. This is awesome. One year?

00:49:01.720 - 00:49:13.610

I just need one year. My parents, okay, look, I got a year. Can I do this internship? And they're like, Okay, I guess so. And I did it.

00:49:13.610 - 00:49:28.040

So I—my first job out of college was working for Houston Chinese Church as their youth intern for one year. And that was it for me— after that one year, I was sold like this is what I think God wanted me—wants me to do with-with

00:49:28.260 - 00:49:39.970

my- with my career. And God really was gracious to change my parents' attitude by-by the end of that year, it's not as if they were like, super like, yay, we totally want you to be in

00:49:39.970 - 00:49:50.930

ministry, but they were-they were supportive. And they realized, you know, this is something that he loves, something that he'-he's good at, and he's not going to be a bum on the

00:49:50.930 - 00:50:01.940

street kind of a thing. You know, always begging people for money. I think they—all-all their kind of fears and stereotypes was kind of addressed as I actually, you know, did the

00:50:01.940 - 00:50:14.280

job for a year. And so when it came time for what to do after that year, the church was like, Hey, you know, we're willing to make this into a more full time, indefinite position, you can just come on as our youth director.

00:50:14.400 - 00:50:28.770

And I was like, Yeah, I-I actually really want to do that. And so I eventually made a decision and I called Pricewaterhouse, the recruiter I'm like I got a better offer now. I didn't-didn't tell them it was Houston Chinese Church.

00:50:29.520 - 00:50:43.170

You know, sorry, I won't be taking the offer. And-and yeah, the rest is history in terms of I—you know, I've been-I've been doing church work pastoring starting off with-with youth

00:50:43.500 - 00:50:55.550

ministry, right out of college. Until this day. Yeah. That's so interesting. Okay. And then, I think you went to Vancouver for a bit? Yes, yes. So I did the youth ministry for four years.

00:50:56.790 - 00:51:09.090

So, after the four years, I got-I got married at the last year. So my-my wife is Teresa, and she's a school teacher. And we moved up

00:51:09.090 - 00:51:18.200

to Vancouver, British Columbia, because the seminary-seminary that I was going to attend , it's called Regent College. And that's where it's located.

00:51:18.290 - 00:51:29.350

So it's up-up there in Canada, British Columbia. So I chose it because of the—one of the professors, J. I. Packer was a professor that I

00:51:29.350 - 00:51:35.690

read a lot of his books. He was a professor there. He's a retired professor, but at least he was still there.

00:51:36.350 - 00:51:46.600

And that was the impetus for me to-to go there. And then when I actually went to Vancouver, when-when I checked it out before I actually, like applied, I'm like, well, Vancouver is awesome. City is amazing.

00:51:46.930 - 00:51:54.880

The weather is great. I mean, growing up in Houston, right? I mean, the weather is just like night and day. And so yeah, so that-that was the impetus to

00:51:55.000 - 00:52:07.300

move up there. And I did my seminary education three years up there. And then another three years of pastoring, I was an associate pastor of a small neighborhood Baptist Church, that I was a

00:52:07.300 - 00:52:17.170

part of up there. And I did that for three years. Our daughter was born in 2011. And that was the next kind of motivation to want to move home.

00:52:17.530 - 00:52:30.960

Our kind of vision of raising a family was ideally in context-of around our family. And so if that was possible, we were-we were very open to that. So I started looking in Houston for pastoring opportunities.

00:52:31.960 - 00:52:43.760

And at that time, HCC was like hey, actually, we got a position. Would you be interested—I'm like really wow, okay, you know, I, of course, I had all the relationships established. And the-the job opportunity seemed to be exactly

00:52:44.140 - 00:52:52.570

kind of what I wanted to do. So, yeah, so came back in 2011. And since then, I've been the English minister and then English pastor.

00:52:53.810 - 00:53:11.390

Awesome. And so, what kind of inspires you to go towards like the pastoring route? Yeah. Um, so the first inspiration is just in terms of like, wanting to just do Christian work and missionary that was because of that-that missions trip and-and that was just me

00:53:11.390 - 00:53:24.800

kind of—I had a conversation with a missionary, who he asked me very straightforward. He's like, Look, what if money wasn't a factor for you, financial security for you and your future family?

00:53:25.630 - 00:53:36.640

You knew it was set, you didn't have to worry about taking care of anyone, yourself or anyone else financially. What would you want to do with all your time? And I was like, I

00:53:36.690 - 00:53:50.280

want to do what you're doing. I want to do this, I want to-I want to teach the Bible I want to help people underst—to-to-to know about God, and what it means to be a follower of God. Like, that's kind of what I wanted to do.

00:53:50.280 - 00:54:07.060

So that was the first like, impetus like I think this is what I want to do with my-with my life. It—the-the pastoring was more after that one year at HCC, where I realized that I had an affinity towards

00:54:09.100 - 00:54:24.360

helping explain the Bible to people, and to be able to help walk with them, not as—not necessarily as non-Christians, trying to understand what it means to be a Christian becoming Chri—But I had-I had a real passion on helping younger

00:54:24.360 - 00:54:37.710

Christians grow up in their-in their faith and understanding the further implications of their faith, which is, you know, really what a pastor is more accustomed to doing. In contrast to maybe a

00:54:37.710 - 00:54:51.450

missionary who is more working front lines when people have no clue or very limited knowledge of-of-of the faith. So I think that was more just through experience. I realized what was a better

00:54:51.510 - 00:55:02.810

fit for me. Yeah. And so how has—how have you seen like, HCC change since you were a youth minister to being a pastor? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so definitely, you know, the history of the church and in the church

00:55:02.850 - 00:55:17.590

planting that we've done, I was able to kind of see some of that maybe not be as actively involved, but just at least observing. So I remember when it-when WHCC was kind of starting off. Um and then I was actively in the youth group,

00:55:18.360 - 00:55:32.910

when Fort Bend Community Church began, and that was a real sad moment for the youth group 'cause we were all like, you know, our friends, like having to go to—you know, and then so I-I kind of observed that and then-and then

00:55:33.700 - 00:55:49.370

for-for my own experience, I think kind of, some of the bigger changes, I would say would be I mean— very thankful for pastor Fred, he has been a, you know, a stable, kind of stable kind of

00:55:49.830 - 00:56:05.980

figure, to helping the English speaking congregation to-to-to grow and develop over the years. And so I guess, when I started, when I was going there, there definitely was a congregation already there where it wasn't just teenagers and youth,

00:56:06.340 - 00:56:20.210

there were already young professionals and families there. But I think I've seen this that kind of development, where it becomes a real full-fledged congregation, where you have a wide range of life

00:56:20.210 - 00:56:32.830

stages, where before, in most Chinese heritage churches like ours, it's going to start off where the English is going to be predominantly, the children of the immigrants. And it takes a while for it to kind of achieve all

00:56:32.830 - 00:56:42.530

those various life stages. So I've definitely seen that happening. And really appreciative. I think, because of our location, we have a unique opportunity to have a

00:56:42.530 - 00:56:54.450

high degree of college students because of Rice, and-and a lot of graduate students because of the medical center. So there is, at our church, compared to some of the other Chinese churches that are more

00:56:54.450 - 00:57:07.510

suburban, we have a higher demographic of-of students, college and graduates and young professionals because, you know, young professionals, they-they-they don't really want to live out in the suburbs, with their parents, they want to live in the city, you know?

00:57:07.510 - 00:57:20.810

They want to live in cool places, like the Heights, right. Or Midtown, you know, in the Museum District like, and so that's where we also have just because of our location being one of the fewer Chinese churches kind of

00:57:20.810 - 00:57:36.440

in—basically in the inner loop, right. So I've seen that grow in terms of the student ministry and the young adult ministry. And then even then, I'd say the last like 10 years, one cool thing is

00:57:36.440 - 00:57:51.000

seeing us—being able to bring in and really welcome non-Chinese Americans into the English congregation. So branching out among Asian Americans.

00:57:51.000 - 00:58:03.400

So, you know, next biggest group we would have is Koreans, Korean Americans. And then we have some Vietnamese Americans, Filipino, Japanese, those are you know more spattered, but you know, but we have other

00:58:03.400 - 00:58:19.350

Asian Americans, I would say, among our English congregation, about almost 10% of them are going to be Asian Americans of non-Chinese descent. Wow. And then, even in the last few years, you see a

00:58:19.350 - 00:58:32.750

growing number of even non-Asians, coming into our community and sticking around. And it's not just because they happen to be married to a Chinese person, which is in the past, the typical

00:58:33.300 - 00:58:48.840

reason why they would be a non- Asian person among us is because of-of-of a-a mixed marriage. A-ethnically mixed marriage. The other reason would be they are preparing to be a missionary in China, you know.

00:58:49.100 - 00:59:01.940

And so— or in Taiwan, or something like that. And so they want to come here to prepare to have the immersive cultural experience, language experience. But I would say in the last, yeah, 5 to 10

00:59:01.940 - 00:59:17.110

years, more and more among Rice students. That's been a huge, you know, where a lot of our non-Asians might be because of Rice, medical, the-the medical students, and just, you know,

00:59:17.110 - 00:59:33.300

there-there is a desire among just Christians to have a church that is committed to biblical teaching. And by that what we mean is that the teaching that happens on the

00:59:33.300 - 00:59:45.640

Sunday service is not just like, hey, some thoughts that the pastor had this week about something interesting that he just wants to talk about, or what's going on in the news. Let's just talk about whatever is happening and try

00:59:45.640 - 00:59:58.810

to like, give a Christian spin on it. There's a there's a growing number of Christians who really just want to hear the Word of God. The Bible, which-which Christians believe to be the very

00:59:58.810 - 01:00:12.540

words of God written long ago, but still living an active and relevant for us today. And he still speaks to us today through a preacher preaching the Word of God to us.

01:00:12.870 - 01:00:26.960

And I think that kind of commitment to the biblical preaching where we allow the Word of the Bible to really shape and direct the the teaching Ministry of our church. So it's not just what's my hobby horses as-as the

01:00:26.960 - 01:00:39.910

preacher, what-what are my interests. I'm just like, whatever the Bible teaches, I want to convey that. And also, of course, still make it relevant and applicable for today. But I think that come in

01:00:39.910 - 01:00:54.590

to biblical teaching has actually been a big reason why there are going to be non Asians who say, you know what, I'm just not finding that at my church right now here in Houston. And I somehow gotten connected with you guys, either just searching on the internet, or

01:00:54.650 - 01:01:12.170

through a friend. And even though I wasn't at all looking for a Chinese heritage church, you know, I'm not Chinese, I don't-I don't really—I never really had Chinese friends. But my desire of—from a church is biblical teaching, biblical preaching, and that trumps the

01:01:12.170 - 01:01:22.790

desire to be around people of like ethnicity. And so they would rather be even the odd man out. And being, you know, being the minority in

01:01:22.790 - 01:01:37.360

our context. they're okay with that, because of the fact that we are offering them biblical teaching, I think that's been a huge reason why we have had non-Asians be a part of us, who had no connection, no relational connection at all.

01:01:37.830 - 01:01:49.890

They just looked us up on the internet, they kind of checked us out a little bit. They're like, hey, Bible's taught here. All right, we'll come and we'll just settle in. And I think you've-you've encountered some of them at our church, where

01:01:50.130 - 01:02:04.290

they didn't really know anyone before, but-but they're very much a part of us now. Because we try our best, even though we recognize we, you know, it is still an immigrant Chinese church. Now, you know, the Chinese language of Chinese culture is still very prevalent.

01:02:04.690 - 01:02:15.660

But we're, you know, on the English side, it's all in English. So there isn't a language barrier. And we try our best to be as warm and welcoming to whoever is willing to be able to-to-to make a home with

01:02:15.660 - 01:02:27.700

us. And so yeah, I just been encouraged to see that development. And over the years of-of us, doing what we can to branch out, creating an environment where any of our friends and

01:02:27.700 - 01:02:40.990

colleagues, whether they're Asian or not, might be able to find a spiritual home among us if they so choose. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. And can you explain a little bit about like the denomination of

01:02:40.990 - 01:02:54.940

HCC? Yeah. So it's officially non-denominational. Meaning that we are not affiliated with any other larger organizational body. It was started 45 years ago by UH

01:02:55.150 - 01:03:06.580

graduate students. Predominantly from Taiwan and Hong Kong. And initially, actually, they were-they were going to church.

01:03:06.990 - 01:03:20.800

So these believers who are graduates students at UH were going to church at Chinese Bible—Chinese Baptist Church, CBC, because that was the only Chinese church in town. Knowing where they're located, you can see how it

01:03:20.800 - 01:03:31.280

was a little bit far for-for for UH students. Yeah, yeah. And eventually, they, you know, and-and-and not-not all of them came from Baptist backgrounds either, right?

01:03:31.910 - 01:03:45.390

So kind of all depends on just whatever denominational background they came from, from back home. So it was a bit of an eclectic mix of graduate students, but the commonality, they were all UH graduate students, and they're all Chinese immigrants.

01:03:45.920 - 01:04:04.930

And they really couldn't find much of—it was too difficult for them to really assimilate into the, you know, the first Baptists or the Second, you know, these-these-these larger majority culture churches. CBC was-was-was, you know, a place where

01:04:05.040 - 01:04:19.080

they could, but eventually, they decided to-to-to form their own church. So starting off as a Bible study and eventually becoming a church, and then in '75, is when they incorporated and-and then they started meeting at South Main

01:04:19.080 - 01:04:33.310

Baptist Church in Midtown. And then eventually, in '82, is when they built the-the current building on the campus that we are now. And so the way they

01:04:33.340 - 01:04:47.250

organize themselves, because of those—I mean-I-I can't say for sure, but I'm assuming because of those Baptist influences of CBC and also the church that they are— that was hosting them initially, was a Baptist Church.

01:04:47.680 - 01:05:02.840

And because if you don't have a—if you don't plan on being part of a larger denominational body, then being-then-then organizing yourself like a Baptist would be the-the most conducive way of organizing yourself.

01:05:03.210 - 01:05:19.750

So like, we're not Baptists, officially, like we're not part of a Baptist denomination, but all Baptist denominations are all voluntary associations anyway, each church owns their own property, selects their own leaders, makes their own decision with the

01:05:19.750 - 01:05:30.170

budget, and everything. So it's all a voluntary association, if they were a part of the denomination, we're not even that, but we are a—but we are organized very similarly.

01:05:30.430 - 01:05:41.730

Meaning that we believe in local church autonomy, that means all the decisions are just conducted by the congregation itself led by-led by lay leaders within the church.

01:05:42.260 - 01:05:57.840

And then-and then we—so that-that's very similar. So if you want to compare it to any other kind of denomination, it would be most comparable to a Baptist Church. in the way that we kind of organize and structure ourselves.

01:05:58.470 - 01:06:10.820

And then the cool thing is, through all those years of church planting, we've kind of developed a network of sister churches across the Greater Houston area. And then we have those partnerships with like

01:06:11.000 - 01:06:23.940

with CBC, like you mentioned before, but-but we are independent, in that sense of being an independent, non-denominational church, but with close networks and partnerships. Right.

01:06:24.250 - 01:06:35.370

And so is there a difference between the teachings of like, HCC, non-denominational churches, and Baptist churches? Um, not necessarily.

01:06:35.370 - 01:06:52.050

It probably is going to be depending on—even among Baptist churches, their overall theological slant, if they're going to be more progressive or conservative in their interpretation of the Bible, in historic, Christian doctrines.

01:06:52.700 - 01:07:08.130

So we would probably be more described as-as aligned with the more conservative interpretation of Scripture, aligned with the historic interpretations of these Christian doctrines.

01:07:08.470 - 01:07:23.710

So in that sense—now, we're similar to Baptists in the fact that we only baptize adult—oh, not-not necessarily adult but- but people who can consciously profess faith.

01:07:24.480 - 01:07:40.230

So you know, a-a-a teenage-teenager could do it too. But instead of baptizing babies, yeah, so that's probably, you know, the only thing that distinct about us that would be more like a Baptist Church is the fact that we don't have

01:07:40.230 - 01:07:54.310

any denominational body or individual like-like a bishop, have any authority over us. It's all the local church handles all of that. And we only baptize those who have

01:07:54.310 - 01:08:07.550

professed the faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. So that makes us look and feel more Baptist. But— yeah, so I guess when you say, are we similar to Baptists in our teaching, it would

01:08:07.550 - 01:08:21.600

probably—you'd probably have to ask more further, like which Baptist denomination which Baptist Church Are you referring to? Because there is such a spectrum even among them. But those practices are very similar in terms of we

01:08:21.640 - 01:08:33.640

are local church, a local church autonomy and believers in baptism, those are the two distinguishing things of a Baptist Church, you'd find that at-at our church, we just don't use the label as a Baptist Church.

01:08:34.010 - 01:08:45.420

Yeah okay. Interesting. And were there any other like Chinese churches that you are aware of? Or was CBC kind of like, the only one? Back-back then, I—that's the only one I'm aware of.

01:08:45.420 - 01:08:57.430

So my understanding is that CBC, they're in their 50s, something like they've been around—I mean, I'm sure you find out. They- they're the oldest Chinese church. And then I think it's us.

01:08:57.460 - 01:09:09.170

I think it's HCC. So '75, so 45 years. And then out of CBC, there has been a few churches that have come out of it.

01:09:09.500 - 01:09:24.520

Whether it was an intentional church plant or maybe a split, I mean, you might have asked them. But for us, by God's grace, we've never had a split. They've always been intentional church planting. So the first one was Clear Lake.

01:09:26.140 - 01:09:40.210

Okay. Because NASA, you know, the-the-the shuttle-the shuttle program, and you know, those of—back in the 80s there was a lot of engineers, you know, Chinese immigrants moving out to

01:09:40.210 - 01:09:52.810

the Clear Lake area, working for NASA. And so that's where we eventually started Clear Lake Chinese Church. The second one was out in Port Lavaca. Port Lavaca there's Point Comfort,

01:09:53.340 - 01:10:08.140

Point Comfort Chinese Church. There's a formosan, the plastic factory-plastic factory over there, so that's why there's a lot of Taiwanese living in-in Port Lavaca. The third church

01:10:08.180 - 01:10:22.650

plant would be West Houston Chinese Church. And then the fourth would be Fort Bend Community Church. And there's also that global church plant that we were involved with in Kazakhstan.

01:10:23.790 - 01:10:36.470

And that was—I don't remember the timeline exactly. That might have been around the same time as Fort Bend. Okay. And then, you know, and you're aware of the Pearland one, which we're, you know we're-

01:10:36.470 - 01:10:46.920

we'-re-we're wrapping up. And then those other churches, like W, in particular, has been very active in church planting as well. So they planted the Katy Church, and

01:10:46.920 - 01:11:02.530

also the one up in the Woodlands. It's called—I think they just call it North Houston. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. And is the one Kazakhstan still running? It's still running, I don't think we are as actively-actively

01:11:04.700 - 01:11:15.180

involved. We used to support it financially, but I think that commitment eventually ended a few years back. So, not too much active support.

01:11:16.080 - 01:11:33.310

But you know, she's not with us right now because her and her family are living in Germany. But Aliona Chen is our English, you know, our English administrative assistant. She was saved—she got to become a Christian through that church,

01:11:33.830 - 01:11:47.410

because she's from Kazakhstan. And so yeah, she's, you know, evidence of the fruit of that church plant. And then over at CBC, Pastor Oleg,

01:11:47.760 - 01:11:56.760

I don't know if you guys interviewed him, but Pastor Oleg Xu, he's from Kazakhstan. He's from Almaty. So he actually I think, also that church is

01:11:56.790 - 01:12:08.840

where-where he became a Christian as well. Yeah. So yeah, we definitely still have you know, I mean, we could see the—there-there was some good fruit out of it. But I can't really tell you myself, how they're doing.

01:12:08.910 - 01:12:14.910

I'm-I’m not as familiar. I'm sure there are some people we can ask at church that would know, but I wouldn't know myself. Interesting, okay.

01:12:15.510 - 01:12:28.750

I didn't know that. That's cool. And so how large is the congregation at HCC right now? Ah, well, pre-pandemic, we were, I would say, a conservative-conservative

01:12:28.750 - 01:12:40.380

estimate would be 900, on an average Sunday. I think it kind of gets closer to 1000. But if you average it out, it's probably low-low 900s, including-including youth and children. And that

01:12:40.380 - 01:12:53.970

would have the English congregation, the Mandarin congregation, the Cantonese congregation, and also the Pearland campus, that's including Pearland still. Members right now, because we

01:12:53.970 - 01:13:06.160

have a membership meeting coming up, so I think the number they said was, oh, I forget it, but it's like, right under 600. Yeah. Oh, actually, no no no, low 600s.

01:13:06.610 - 01:13:21.380

I forget the exact numbers, low 600s is, in terms of active members. English side, I can tell you that exactly. English side, we have 267 active English members, if you're including the youth, which majority

01:13:22.190 - 01:13:35.910

of them would be youth, the children of the Chinese-side families, but they worship with us in the English congregation, so we still count them. But English adults, it's 240 active English

01:13:35.910 - 01:13:49.710

adults. Yeah. Okay, cool. And how large is like the Chinese and the Mandarin and Cantonese congregation? Ah, yeah. So, okay, so if you're just talking about average on a Sunday

01:13:49.710 - 01:14:02.260

pre-pandemic, I would say, you know, and we can kind of go back and look at those little numbers they have on the bulletin, right? But I think it's—I think Mandarin and English are pretty much about the

01:14:02.260 - 01:14:15.370

same, I would say around 300. Right, kind of hovers around that. And then Cantonese would be basically like, around 100. And then Pearland is gonna be like,

01:14:15.370 - 01:14:27.670

let's say 75. Okay. Yeah. And that's not including children and then you add children to that as well. That-that would-that would include youth because they would be counted in—well, actually, I don't

01:14:27.670 - 01:14:40.400

know. Anyways, yeah, I mean, it's about-it's about like—So, yeah it would be Mandarin and English would be the two larger congregations. That's-that's why we worship in the bigger sanctuary. And then it's—and then the Cantonese and then Pearland,

01:14:41.060 - 01:14:53.020

Right, I was always curious as to like how they counted people, do they just have like— They-they literally have the guy upstairs. One of the-one of the AV people upstairs, you know, you know, the AV room up there right?

01:14:53.380 - 01:15:00.860

They got a little counter and they're just like—and they have a chart with all the pews. So they count the row, and they put the number down.

01:15:01.370 - 01:15:12.030

And so one person does it. And then the-the-the second person does another count. So there's two counts. And to try to be as accurate as possible.

01:15:12.710 - 01:15:27.990

But again, if you're out in the lobby, they can't see you. And, yeah, if you're standing out, even just standing in the back, like holding a baby, then they can't see you either. They can only just see the last pew, you know.

01:15:28.510 - 01:15:42.640

That's what they do, they—yeah, they do that they literally sit there like . That's funny. Um, and I guess so—the English congregation has grown, like quite large. How has that affected the initial purpose and mission of HCC, as like a Chinese

01:15:42.640 - 01:15:56.730

church? Oh, that's a very good question. Yeah, I think it's just enhanced it, you know. It's-it's-it's a great opportunity to have—because, you know, you grew up in the youth group, myself as well.

01:15:57.990 - 01:16:15.150

If it was just immigrant parents, trying their best to lead a youth group, to teach the Bible, to connect with adolescents who are wrestling with growing up in a bicultural setting, it'll be quite

01:16:15.150 - 01:16:31.120

challenging for immigrant parents, first generation immigrants to-to effectively do that. I think the fact that you have a second generation congregation, many adults who have gone through that same experience, is such a blessing to-to-to an immigrant church,

01:16:31.120 - 01:16:43.540

especially to the children of first generation immigrants. Because you have a— Chinese Americans who are older than you who went through the same thing, the bicultural experience.

01:16:44.340 - 01:16:54.930

And also—so not only just, you know, being Chinese in-in the States, but also being a Christian too. And all of that thing—as-as- as you're dealing with identity.

01:16:55.400 - 01:17:08.720

Man, it's such a blessing to have a English ministry where you have especially young-younger-younger members. Other college students, graduate students, young professionals, to be a source of

01:17:09.920 - 01:17:23.780

influence, setting a good example. Just being like mentors and disciplers, we would call disci-discipler, or you can call it a mentor in the life of these-of these children of first generation immigrants.

01:17:24.220 - 01:17:36.590

Having that's one huge blessing. And then a blessing for me, as someone who is second generation as an adult now, I don't I don't need that, per se myself.

01:17:36.590 - 01:17:51.410

But you know, what was a blessing for me is, I've got first generation parents who don't-who don't believe in God, who don't go to church, and I hope and pray they do. And I know if they ever do, they've got a solid Chinese

01:17:51.410 - 01:18:03.860

church, where they can be able to grow in their faith. Right next—because they live in Bellaire right now, so it's just you know. So I-I want there to be a vibrant, healthy Chinese heritage church here in this

01:18:03.860 - 01:18:18.540

area, because there's still plenty of-of Chinese immigrants coming still, man, immigrants, like my parents who came a gener-a generation ago, but they still need a-a-a Lord willing that they'll be,

01:18:18.540 - 01:18:35.410

you know, going to church one day. And then-and then-and then I think, you know, it's also another factor is, I think to be honest, I don't think the experiences and the

01:18:35.410 - 01:18:49.720

opportunities that I received at Houston Chinese Church at such an early stage in my career, I don't think I would have had those opportunities in a majority culture church.

01:18:50.430 - 01:19:04.680

Right. If I was in a typical church that was majority white— because of just my experience, whether in my seminary experience or in the church I was at up in Vancouver, which was not a Chinese church.

01:19:05.040 - 01:19:23.610

And even talking to my friends who are-who are either just members of a majority culture church or serving on one. I think the opportunities for me to be like the primary preacher, right out of sem—you know, a few years, like

01:19:23.610 - 01:19:37.920

three years out of seminary, and to be like, that would never happen. Right, yeah. And I think that it also just provides opportunities for leadership and to exercise giftings

01:19:39.160 - 01:19:51.960

for Asian-Asian Americans or Chinese Americans in a minority-led church, that would be more challenging in a majority culture church. So I think that's another opportunity where you know

01:19:51.960 - 01:20:09.190

what, like, I really think that what Houston needs—being such a diverse city, is it needs churches that are committed to reaching all-all peoples. But when we think-typically think of

01:20:09.740 - 01:20:23.810

churches that are trying to do that, and that are multi-ethnic and have a multi-ethnic mission, it's typically understood it's-it's a majority white church trying to branch out. But the

01:20:23.850 - 01:20:37.250

ethos, and the culture is still coming from a-a particular cultural context. And even though they're trying to be as welcoming, but it's-it is still for minorities is

01:20:37.250 - 01:20:45.540

going to be a bit of a hurdle to really find a home there. So I think we still need that to happen. And I'm-I'm-I-I'm so encouraged that more majority

01:20:46.260 - 01:21:01.040

culture churches in Houston are being more mindful to be more multicultural, more multi-ethnic, but what we also need our ethnic churches, immigrant churches, to do—to aim for the same thing coming from another side of the spectrum.

01:21:01.040 - 01:21:14.100

So these are-these are majority white churches trying to grow more diverse, and reaching a greater diversity of Houston. And then even the minority churches, with minority-led pastors, trying

01:21:14.100 - 01:21:23.210

to do the same thing as well. Still valuing our unique relationship with our culture, with the first generation immigrants, and I don't ever want to lose that.

01:21:23.640 - 01:21:35.690

I want to keep strengthening that. But at the same time, I think we can offer, as an English congregation, an English speaking minority-led pastors-minority pastors, to

01:21:35.910 - 01:21:48.950

add to the voice, add to the efforts to try to reach a greater peace. So it's not just trying to reach diverse people by having an ultimate go-to is still-still a church that is the majority white. But

01:21:48.950 - 01:22:06.320

they can also come here too that's one that's majority Asian. Yeah. But we're all trying to aim for the same thing, just coming from the different perspective. And, you know, even if we still always remain with a majority of-of Chinese or Asian, I think

01:22:06.480 - 01:22:23.410

that's fine, because it's not as if we're so—it's not-it's not-we're not just doing it just because it's so comfortable. And I know that is a danger, that sometimes we will choose to be at a place like a-a-a Chinese American would choose to be at a place like Houston

01:22:23.410 - 01:22:35.690

Chinese Church, because it's comfortable. It's familiar. And if that's the only motivation, I would want to challenge that, but I wouldn't challenge that if you said, you necessarily have to go to

01:22:36.330 - 01:22:50.140

a multi- ethnic church or majority white church, or even a majority African American or-or Latino—I would simply say, if you feel too comfortable, and too, like everything's too uniform, and similar

01:22:50.970 - 01:23:02.700

and too easy, in a Chinese church, it's probably because you're still way too much in a bubble. Because in a Chinese church there's actually a lot of diversity. Like, yes, there may not be a lot

01:23:02.700 - 01:23:15.200

of ethnic diversity, but in a Chinese church, you have generational diversity, that you don't find in a lot of young, hip, up and coming church plants today in Houston.

01:23:15.200 - 01:23:29.550

There's a lot of—I mean, and I-I wish them well, I-I-I-I think as long as they're preaching the gospel, hey I wish these church plants well, but if you go visit them, everyone's in their 20s. You know? Everyone's either a student or they're all just, you know, they're all the

01:23:29.550 - 01:23:40.730

same age. I love how in a Chinese church, you always have generational diversity of varying life stages, you have grandmas, old grandmas and you have little-little babies, right?

01:23:41.290 - 01:23:55.850

And-and-and by the very nature of a Chinese church, you’ll always have that generational diversity. You also have cultural diversity, even though we're ethnically very similar culturally, that first generation versus the second generation versus the third generation

01:23:56.270 - 01:24:06.250

immigrant. Taiwan versus mainland, Hong Kong, right? I mean—and then you have, you know, Singaporean Chinese. And—so there's so many cultural, his-historical

01:24:09.070 - 01:24:20.790

beef there, you know, as well. So it's not as if, like, everyone's always on the same page. So there is-there is a lot of potential for conflict and struggle—

01:24:22.640 - 01:24:36.520

easy in a Chinese church is probably because our circles are way too small. We need to actually try to get to know someone, on the other congregation, or someone of a different age, and there's always going to be

01:24:36.520 - 01:24:54.760

someone available there to-to-to help you experience diversity. Right. So I—granted we don't have as much ethnic diversity, but we've got-we've got cultural diversity, we've got linguistic diversity, we've got generational

01:24:54.760 - 01:25:09.860

diversity, and that is-that-that's quite a bit, you know? That-that’s pretty stretching, and you need the gospel of Jesus to unify, you know, us just as much as you would need to if you were in a church

01:25:10.230 - 01:25:20.580

of white, Black, Asian, Hispanic, but they're all in their 20s. They're all like, you know, they're all working professionals, and middle class working professionals.

01:25:21.880 - 01:25:34.230

You know, they-they have a lot of similarity. That's what draws them together. They have their challenges, they have their ethnic differences. And I think, yes, we have things that draw us together

01:25:34.230 - 01:25:47.620

that are similar, but we also have a lot of differences. So I-I just think that the whole conversation about diversity is important, but I don't think it should be limited to just talking about ethnic diversity, as if that's

01:25:47.660 - 01:26:02.550

the only important kind of diversity—which I-I do value, but I don't think that that means what's happening in HCC is less important. The kind of work we're doing and trying to build a unified

01:26:02.550 - 01:26:13.570

church admits all of our diversity is not less important and less meaningful than what a church is doing that's multi-ethnic. Right, Yeah. So I don't—that's just kind of my take.

01:26:13.590 - 01:26:27.870

I mean, maybe I'm just self-justifying the job I have and the church I'm in. But no, I really think that there's something to be said about that. And that hopefully is added to the conversation about-about church diversity. Yeah, I think so too.

01:26:28.270 - 01:26:42.260

And what are some, like potential challenges, if any? Because of the demographic and generational shifts within like, Chinese church? Yeah, yeah. I mean, so definitely, I think with our church, the challenge is

01:26:42.290 - 01:26:55.770

because we are more urban. And we don't have the advantage that some of our suburban sister churches have, where there is a stronger family connection between the congregations.

01:26:55.770 - 01:27:11.290

Like so you would be unique in the sense that you're still you know, you graduated by getting into Rice, but you're still at HCC. So you're still at the church with your parents on the-on the Chinese side. But if you look at most of the English side and Chinese side members, there's no-there's

01:27:11.910 - 01:27:26.540

no blood relation, there's no family relation. And so that, I think, because of our demographic, we're growing. But we're growing with newer people coming in—to Houston and

01:27:26.660 - 01:27:37.090

coming to our church that have no connections with people in the other congregation. So I think that's always going to be a unique challenge for us is that we need to find ways to, you

01:27:37.090 - 01:27:48.880

know, still pursue our-our-our ministries that are, you know, related, but also distinct, because of our language differences and the kind of target groups that we're-we're trying to reach.

01:27:50.380 - 01:28:05.810

But to still find ways to-to-to-to find connections and unity between us because it's always going to be a bit more challenging. In like, Fort Bend for example, you're gonna have more people on the English side, related to

01:28:05.810 - 01:28:23.240

people on the Chinese side, because by that point, when those people in the English like, grow— the youth grow up, they-they-they're working, they fin—and they happen to still be in Houston. And they finally like get married and settle down, and they-and you know, they're living

01:28:23.240 - 01:28:39.050

in the Heights as a young couple, you know, living it up and in a real hip, cool place. But then eventually, they start having kids, they start thinking about schools, I'm gonna send my kid to school, and they're—ah, the-the-these schools in this area are not that good.

01:28:39.370 - 01:28:50.880

So where do they start thinking? They start thinking about their school system growing up in the suburbs. And so they're more likely to eventually—and-and their houses are cheaper, and they want to be having more kids, they want to buy a bigger house, they're going to

01:28:50.880 - 01:29:04.860

move back out to Fort Bend, and then they're looking for a church, they'll potentially go back to Fort Bend Community Church, where their parents still are. So that dynamic is more likely in a suburban Chinese

01:29:05.250 - 01:29:18.090

church. Like Fort Bend, Pearland, Katie, Woodlands. Not so much for HCC. That's something that we can't count on, that these youth eventually are

01:29:18.090 - 01:29:31.420

gonna, like, grow up and then want to come back here, you know, it all depends on just kind of what industry that they end up in, and the things like that, right? So that's where I think our church is always going to have a bigger

01:29:32.980 - 01:29:42.350

challenge of-of keeping us connected because there's not going to be as many natural connections, like you might have in a suburban context. Yeah, that makes sense.

01:29:42.460 - 01:29:57.770

And that's for like planting churches—church planting, What- what's like the purpose of planting churches in Houston especially like new churches? Yeah. Yeah. So the initial reason which is because HCC

01:29:57.900 - 01:30:09.690

functions like a hub. Like a real central campus, right? So that eventually—it was located in a great place, because a lot of these people initially were coming for education.

01:30:11.120 - 01:30:24.880

And so they're coming to UH, Rice, Med Center, doing their graduate degrees, their postdocs, whatever. And then eventually they move out to the suburbs. And then you have these growing Chinese immigrant communities in

01:30:24.880 - 01:30:37.190

these various suburbs, I said Clear Lake earlier, right? Sugar Land, for sure. And then they’re just commuting in, and HCC is located right there on-on the Loop, which is a great location as a

01:30:37.190 - 01:30:49.670

commuter church. But eventually, as the church was growing, it was really a necessity eventually, as they start thinking, look, we're only so—we're so limited with this campus.

01:30:50.330 - 01:31:02.660

And now we see a growing community in these other areas. We have a fellowship already meeting over there. That was the impetus to start thinking, let-let's plant-let's plant a church, taking the

01:31:02.660 - 01:31:18.060

same kind of model, the same kind of ethos, and then planting it over there, where you have a growing immigrant community. And so yeah, that was kind of the thought process, it kind of waited until you got to a certain size, that we were kind of bursting at the

01:31:18.060 - 01:31:27.750

seams on the main campus. And then it was like, alright time to start thinking about where's the best place to-to plant another church. So that's typically the reason why we plant.

01:31:28.380 - 01:31:41.360

I think one thing we're thinking about right now is not just to do it more reactionary, like waiting til you get to that point where like, oh, we're just-we're-we need to like, you know.

01:31:41.870 - 01:31:53.900

But actually seeing it as part of the growth strategy, because you know, there are some churches that their growth strategy is they want to become a bigger, bigger, bigger institution, growing their

01:31:53.900 - 01:32:05.580

congregations, growing their campuses, their buildings, maybe doing multi-site, whatever, where the institution itself gets bigger and bigger. I think for us, a lot of the leaders are more committed to

01:32:06.040 - 01:32:20.750

staying still pretty lean institutionally. And instead of becoming like a—you know, our goal is to become a mega-church, or to be a multi-site church. Well, why don't we just raise up new leaders, and empower them to start new

01:32:20.750 - 01:32:37.590

churches, and instead of them still being dependent upon us for either money, or for the preacher to you know, you know, video-video him in, why don't we just empower them and train them up and-and really see church planting as a growth

01:32:37.590 - 01:32:52.660

strategy? Because I think if you do it well, it actually invigorates the planting church, because it means that everyone that is a leader is always thinking about reproducing himself or herself into another leader, that

01:32:52.660 - 01:33:05.480

might be a part of a future church plant. so that—and then you know, that-that's where you are, basically, you're trying to grow, to grow the

01:33:05.480 - 01:33:20.730

church, by-by-by-by sending, and actually—so it's a bit of a different, it requires that philosophy of I am not so much concerned with this institution and

01:33:20.730 - 01:33:36.890

wanting to grow this insti—I'm more thinking about the bigger—what is Christians would call the Kingdom-Kingdom of God. That entails all the churches, either Houston or around the world that-that are still faithful to proclaiming the King's gospel, the King's message.

01:33:38.310 - 01:33:54.510

I would rather have that kingdom mindset of like, you know what, I'd rather plant more churches and see more churches out there, versus just having my church get bigger and bigger. So that's the belief that I think we are more effective if we're leaner, and

01:33:54.510 - 01:34:08.250

then planting out, as a way— instead of getting bigger and bigger institutionally, you're just sending out people. And I think the process of sending them out invigorates, even the people that stay as well,

01:34:08.830 - 01:34:17.140

and really causes them to— hey, you need to step up, because we've already stepped out some strong leaders, you need to step up now as well. So I think it helps overall. But anyways, I think that's probably the,

01:34:17.140 - 01:34:32.280

in my opinion, the better motivation to church plant. And I would hope that will be the motivation driving the next church plant that we do after we finish up Pearland. Yeah, awesome. And so with the growth of like Chinese Americans, and not just

01:34:32.280 - 01:34:48.390

Chinese Americans, but like Asian Americans in Houston, do you think there are enough churches to kind of respond to that segment of— Yeah. Yeah, and I-I would say I wish there were more and that's kind of—you're hitting it right at that that's actually what I-I would-I would love—and

01:34:48.390 - 01:35:00.040

again, this is dreaming right now— I would love for our next church plant, to not necessarily have to be a-a traditional Chinese church with its like, immigrant Chinese-speaking

01:35:02.270 - 01:35:16.030

ministry, but to plant out like an Asian American—well, it's gonna, you know, obviously, coming from us, it's gonna be a large percentage of Asian-Asian American leaders. So again, like I said earlier, giving them a real

01:35:16.360 - 01:35:29.790

chance to step up and exercise that kind of leadership and gifting, but with a mind to reaching the community, regardless of-of-of its, you know, particular ethnic group. So not-not necessarily like

01:35:30.430 - 01:35:45.460

identifying it as an Asian American church, but just a-an English speaking, Bible-preaching, gospel-teaching, Jesus loving, community minded church, that it happens to be, a

01:35:45.460 - 01:35:57.840

number of Asian Americans, you know. And I would love that to be our next thing, because I think we do need more of that. I-I think we do need more churches, either more Chinese

01:35:57.840 - 01:36:15.160

churches that have a vibrant immigrant first generation ministry, I think that's always important. But also, more importantly for the future, I think more minority-led churches, and in this case,

01:36:15.290 - 01:36:29.980

Asian American minority-led churches, I think that's going to be important, because, even though I hope they don't just cater to Asian Americans, but there's something like I said earlier, just about the challenges of-of-of-of

01:36:31.310 - 01:36:49.060

having those opportunities, within the existing kind of majority culture church kind of system, or what do you want to call it, right? Yeah. So I think it'd be healthy for a church like ours, to be part of the process of planting out healthy, mi-Asian

01:36:49.060 - 01:37:01.470

American minority-led churches. Yeah. And so I would love to be a part of that, not as necessarily myself doing that. I would love to be the guy, you know, calling for that

01:37:01.470 - 01:37:15.740

and raising up guys. And so yeah, I mean, even in our church, you know, I have my eye on-on someone, I'm hoping that you'll be a church planter one day, you know, and- and I hope-I hope you will lead out a core group

01:37:16.160 - 01:37:27.730

of—from our English congregation, to start a very church like that. And I would love to send him out with the best, you know, and our best people are our-our most committed givers and servants.

01:37:29.240 - 01:37:41.520

And I-and I-I-I hope that church plant really thrives and then you know, can trust the Lord that the English congregation here will continue to to-to-to revive itself. And then-and then hopefully do it again,

01:37:41.520 - 01:37:53.940

maybe down the road? I think that'd be cool. You know, to really see that as an intentional way of growing a church, is by planting out churches. Yeah, okay.

01:37:53.980 - 01:38:07.010

And how did we come about with like, partnering up with, for example, Chinese Baptist Church? I think relationally, I think it would probably be Fred relationally with the pastors there, and

01:38:07.010 - 01:38:20.160

then it would be camp, would be that actual, like, what's something we’d do together. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, so a lot of that was—so even like, you've been asking me about PAACT, in

01:38:20.160 - 01:38:35.070

partnership of Asian American Churches in Texas, that's all relationally, that's just Fred, who would be the great guy to ask about that, because he helped start it. Okay. And that was with other Chinese churches in

01:38:35.240 - 01:38:52.130

Dallas, Austin, Houston, and in San Antonio. And I think the hub was UT Austin. So for many years, UT Austin and that Chinese Bible Study I was telling you about, which now is AACM, that was kind of like,

01:38:53.290 - 01:39:09.560

the fellowship—the-the school that many of our youth went to, and that was the fellowship that all the youth from all these various Chinese churches, they all kind of met there. And so out of that fellowship, which was student-run, the English pastors played

01:39:10.290 - 01:39:24.700

a-played a role in supplying speaking so they would actually—like Fred used to drive all the way up occasionally to Austin, to just speak in their large group and then drive back home, you know, and of course, Austin Chinese Church played a bigger role because

01:39:24.760 - 01:39:35.930

they-they're local, but PAACT came out of that kind of relationship with those English pastors, among those Chinese churches, through the connection of UT students.

01:39:37.360 - 01:39:51.320

And now, it's not just focused on UT or anymore. Now it's more of relationships between us. And we put on a few occasional retreats throughout the year, kind of catering to different groups.

01:39:52.040 - 01:40:01.510

And that's kind of what keeps our relationship going. But PAACT is really the-the friendship, the camaraderie between these English pastors. So we fellowship, you know, we-we

01:40:03.030 - 01:40:15.850

meet on a every other month basis. And then like I said, we have occasional retreats that we do. I can tell you more about that if you're interested. But yeah, that's the other significant partnership that we would

01:40:15.850 - 01:40:25.130

be a part of, beyond just Houston. Right, yeah. And are there any partnerships with like churches outside of Texas, maybe like, New York, I think?

01:40:25.130 - 01:40:40.810

I don't know. No, nothing that our church is officially a part of. I'm part of something that's kind of burgeoning, in-in at a more infancy stage of—it's like, PAACT, but think on a-on a-on a North

01:40:40.810 - 01:40:55.700

American scale. We're actually trying to even bring in some of our English-English pastors in Canada, as well. Because as long as they're English speaking, then— and it's a Chinese immigrant church, we all have the same dynamics.

01:40:56.150 - 01:41:09.450

We're the English-speaking pastors of the-the second generation immigrant congregat—the second generation congregation in an immigrant church. And there's also a guy from England, a guy from Ireland, and a guy

01:41:09.450 - 01:41:25.160

from Sweden. Because they're also—over there, the same thing. They're in an immigrant Chinese church where they have, you know, the English side is, well, I guess, the Swedish one, I guess, is maybe not the English—the Swedish side?

01:41:25.710 - 01:41:39.740

But they all know English for some reason. But yeah, so I'm part of a—we're calling ourselves a collaborative. It's still pretty on its infancy stage, ao we're not really like public yet.

01:41:39.740 - 01:41:52.570

We-we-we're kind of still forming identity and clarity of mission. But that's something that I hope will be a blessing to English ministries and English pastors, and-and-and English members

01:41:53.020 - 01:42:07.450

of-of Chinese heritage churches across, you know, North America, hopefully, yeah, yeah. So that that's something that I hope, you know, HCC can be officially a part of that once it becomes an actual thing that we

01:42:07.450 - 01:42:19.610

can actually be a part of. But right now, it's just like me personally, and I'm keeping the leadership all informed about this and they're all very supportive of it. But it's not-it's not solidified yet to really be called something that we're partnered with.

01:42:20.090 - 01:42:31.980

But-but that would be a likely thing to get involved with. But that's more of an English side kind of a thing. Yeah. And so kind of going towards PAACT. So can you explain a little bit about like,

01:42:31.980 - 01:42:41.020

what does it stand for? Why was it founded? Yeah, so Partnership of Chinese American Churches in Texas. Now, the original name was

01:42:41.020 - 01:42:58.070

Chinese Ministries of—Chinese Ministries of Texas. Okay. So it was, you know, like I said before, just founded by the English pastors of Chinese churches in Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio. Years ago, they switched the name to

01:42:58.630 - 01:43:12.010

Partnership of Asian American Churches in Texas, because one of our churches was Asian American Baptist Church in Dallas. And so I wasn't a part of that at the time, but I think that

01:43:12.010 - 01:43:25.630

might have been one impetus to like, okay, they're not really—they don't call themselves a Chinese church, but they're still very much involved. And at the same time, maybe there is-there is opportunity down the road, to start branching out to like Korean churches, and

01:43:25.630 - 01:43:40.390

some Filipino churches, and some other, you know, Southeast Asian churches, right? We haven't really done that yet, and that's something on my heart that I would really want us to start doing more of, because I feel like all of us Asian churches, we're kind of like in our own little worlds,

01:43:40.450 - 01:43:52.700

right? We don't really interact as much. But-but yeah, so the whole goal was, so that we could find fellowship, first of all, as the pastors.

01:43:53.460 - 01:44:06.020

Because we all can commiserate with each other. We all know each other's going through. Now we can be able to resource each other and then put on activities and retreats that would be harder for us to do alone, but

01:44:06.270 - 01:44:19.390

jointly together, we might be able to put on—we used to put on a retreat for college students, we don't do that anymore, we've kind of outsourced that to like Intervarsity to do that. But we-we-we still do like a-

01:44:19.390 - 01:44:35.970

like a young professionals retreat. We do a retreat for those who are considering going into pastoral ministry, especially within Asian American—in the Asian American context. We have a whole retreat for those considering ministry, either as a pastor or

01:44:35.970 - 01:44:52.730

as a missionary, we have another one for missionaries. Okay. And then we also— a part of, you probably remember, CMT, Chine—oh no, CMC, Chinese-Chinese Missions Convention, the one that happened in the downtown area.

01:44:52.730 - 01:45:09.380

So that's-that's a-that's a bigger organization called Ambassadors for Christ. They come around every so often putting on this big con-convention, and they need Chinese churches to help execute it. And so PAACT is the—we-we committed to helping

01:45:10.380 - 01:45:22.110

execute the English side of-of CMC, English programming so PAACT helps out with that. So, right now, those are the main things we're doing. I'm-I’m trying this year, because

01:45:22.140 - 01:45:36.020

I'm-I'm-I'm helping out providing some leadership for this year. One thing I'm trying to do is have more of a-of an online presence. And so we recorded a bunch of Zoom calls. And we've already released one of them if you check our website, or check out

01:45:36.130 - 01:45:50.420

our-our-our Facebook page, and then we're gonna start releasing more of just like brief conversations between PAACT pastors, kind of talking about relevant issues that we typically talk about whenever we hang out together. And now we just want to kind of open that conversation up to our

01:45:50.420 - 01:46:04.600

own congregations. And for them to also see that hey, your-your English pastor is good friends with the English pastor over in Dallas, you know, or the guy over in Austin. And then when— and if you're a college student, and you go off to, you know, Dallas,

01:46:04.600 - 01:46:17.090

to UTD , and you're from Houston, you're like, hey, so where should I go to church? Hey, I got some-I got some, you know, good Chinese churches, I got—I'm friends with these pastors, you should check them out, at least. So that I think really, hopefully, lets our church

01:46:17.680 - 01:46:30.200

members know that their English pastor is connected with all these other English pastors here in Texas, I think PAACT is—the more I get around to Chinese churches around the States, I think PAACT is very unique.

01:46:30.400 - 01:46:48.860

I don't think there's too many of these kinds of existing networks among independent churches that have no denominational connection with each other. And yet, just through good relationships, we've been able to forge this kind of thing. So my-my East Coast English pastor friends are like, man, we wish we had something

01:46:48.860 - 01:47:02.490

like that, like sometimes they feel very isolated. Right. But-but I have a network of pastors that I can—that I meet up with, you know, on a regular basis, and we pray for each other, you know, sometimes, if the—Houston guys, I'll hang out with

01:47:02.490 - 01:47:10.470

them. You know, we'll-we’ll grab lunch together. So like, I just really appreciate that kind of camaraderie that comes out of that partnership. Yeah, definitely.

01:47:10.680 - 01:47:24.300

And what is like—what are some future aspirations of PAACT? Or short term aspirations? Yeah. More online presence, providing more content on our social media, and then to also

01:47:24.300 - 01:47:33.960

convert that into a podcast. I really like what Justin is doing over at CBC. I'm watching this collab-collab. I'm actually—he's actually going to interview me tomorrow night, so

01:47:33.960 - 01:47:47.620

I'm like doing two interviews, this week. So yeah, I really appreciate what he's doing. I was like, that's great. And that's kind of what I'm hoping that we can also do, he's doing it among the English—the youth guys, right, here in the Houston area.

01:47:48.010 - 01:48:03.600

I'm hoping to— something like that for English pastors, not just Houston but also in the-in the other major cities here in Texas. So I think that would be good. And then there might be some more retreat type of

01:48:03.710 - 01:48:17.580

things that we can do. One thing we used to do well, that I think we should get back to doing, is providing more dialogue between Chinese and English side leaders. So I think at HCC, WHCC,

01:48:17.580 - 01:48:29.880

Fort Bend, we have a pretty good English Chinese, you know, the-the-the—you know, overall health is pretty solid. I think there's a lot of unhealthiness and a lot of tension

01:48:29.880 - 01:48:44.740

among English and Chinese sides in a lot of smaller Chinese churches across Texas, and also just across the nation. English congregation—English leaders feeling burnout, feeling just like Jr.— like the junior congregation feeling very overlooked.

01:48:47.580 - 01:49:01.480

And I think if we could be able to provide more help, to building up good relationships between—you know, showing good examples and then also helping, even providing some of that

01:49:01.880 - 01:49:21.180

kind of—helping, like Chinese leaders like-like- like-like a Chinese side pastor, who doesn't really have a good relationship with his English side leadership, being able to learn from other Chinese pastors, in our churches that have experienced,

01:49:21.180 - 01:49:37.870

hey, this is how you can really thrive well with your English side leaders, you know? Yeah. You've got to learn some of these, you know, like—hey, look, get to realize they think differently than you. All that kind of stuff, like those type of lessons that I think our churches have gone through, we've learned either through good times and bad

01:49:37.910 - 01:49:48.980

times, we learn things through, you know, through-through trial and error, just through experience. And I feel like we can be able to provide that for other Chinese churches that might be

01:49:49.490 - 01:49:58.320

going-kind of going through some of those challenges and struggles. I think that-I think that'd be pretty cool. So, again, the overall goal is just to provide health and encouragement,

01:50:00.370 - 01:50:12.780

and-and-and just good resourcing for- for-for other Chinese churches. Right, yeah. And how far do you wish to expand if anything? Um, I think—I mean for PAACT, I'm just good with Texas.

01:50:13.070 - 01:50:30.200

And it really is limited, because it's based-based on where there are Chinese churches, and they're only gonna be found either in those four major cities or in College Station, Lubbock, Waco, close to Baylor—yeah.

01:50:31.080 - 01:50:42.280

All the-all the major college towns, right? And so if anything, I would like us to try to still connect with some of those smaller Chinese churches there that I don't think have, to my knowledge, much of an English congregation. I see.

01:50:42.550 - 01:50:56.460

Mm hmm. I think it'd be great to provide some help there. And man, it'd be so cool if one day, we can at HCC create more of a pastoral internship program, like a more robust internship program, where

01:50:56.460 - 01:51:11.240

like anyone who's, like, going to that retreat that's interested in becoming an-an English pastor one day, or youth pastor, like, put them through an internship program at HCC. And then hopefully, like, let's say, I don't know, call it the College Station

01:51:11.240 - 01:51:21.360

Chines—there's a-there's a church, Chinese church in College Station. I don't know much about it at all. I don't even know if they have much of an English congregation. But if we could be able to connect-

01:51:23.430 - 01:51:39.430

connect them to these-these smaller Chinese churches, guys who are like up and coming, wanting to serve in a Chinese church and-and then-and then kind of networking. I think that'd be- that'd be-that'd be awesome, we could be able to help

01:51:40.120 - 01:51:55.500

build up the English congregations of-of some of these smaller Chinese churches in Texas. So that-that would be for PAACT, and then the other one is more of a North American, maybe even kind of English speaking European kind of, maybe United Kingdom it—but I'm-I’m

01:51:55.650 - 01:52:04.800

not really leading. I'm just kind of-of a—I mean, I'm helping out with their steering committee. But-but that's— there's some other leaders that are kind of doing more amusing stuff, and they have more

01:52:04.820 - 01:52:17.050

connections than I do. I'm-I'm more of a local Texas guy. I have a lot of Texas connections. But outside of that I'm still more limited. And in-in-in who I know, in terms of being able to provide

01:52:17.880 - 01:52:28.780

leadership for stuff like that. So Texas, I think I'm good. I think I-I know all the English pastors, at least in the-in the larger Chinese churches here-here in our state.

01:52:29.110 - 01:52:45.760

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think PAACT is super interesting, I actually didn't know about it until like, a few weeks ago when Henry sent it over. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I feel like it's such—it's so sad that most of our—and you're not the only one, most of our people in most of our churches don't know what it is.

01:52:45.930 - 01:52:56.170

And that's why I want us to have more of an online presence, because I think that will help people realize, oh, this is cool. I didn't realize my church was a part of that. That's awesome. You know, so yeah.

01:52:56.890 - 01:53:08.960

Yeah. Okay. Awesome. And I guess some concluding questions, what have been—what has been like, your proudest accomplishment in your life? Oh, my life? Or just in the—oh life?

01:53:09.380 - 01:53:21.500

Oh. Or you can shorten the timespan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, the most significant, obviously, is my-is my conversion, you know, and so I'm coming at this as-as a Christian.

01:53:22.340 - 01:53:36.120

That has completely transformed my direction in life, my values, you know, my commitments, and then it would be-it would be my marriage. So it'd be my conversion, my marriage, being the

01:53:36.120 - 01:53:43.630

most formative in shaping things for me. And then-and then-and then being a father. I think that-that was the other

01:53:43.630 - 01:53:56.880

huge one. So yeah, I think all of those more personal relational things are gonna be like, my biggest accomplishments. You know, I-I-I think that-that's where I'm gonna be, you know, I-I hope that to be the longer legacy.

01:53:56.880 - 01:54:11.710

You know, I do hope Lord willing, God will have me here at HCC for-for-for-for, you know, for a long time, and I can be able to-to help bring about some of those ideas, you know, that I was sharing about down the road. But even if that doesn't happen, I

01:54:11.710 - 01:54:28.320

already feel accomplished in terms of, I know what my life is meant to be about, because of my faith. I know what I'm supposed to—I know where I'm going, not just in this life, but even the next life and I know who I get to share that with.

01:54:28.620 - 01:54:43.220

My, you know, my-my-my family. My-my-my, you know, my family and also my church family, too. And so I think that- that's where, yeah, those things for me are enough. I'm-I’m content with that.

01:54:44.390 - 01:54:55.840

So yeah, I guess, you know, not-not too exciting of an answer, but-but I think that for me that it's-it’s definitely the most meaningful thing-things that I've experienced and accomplished. Yeah.

01:54:55.980 - 01:55:11.030

And so what advice would you give to-especially those Asian American Christians living through this pandemic right now. Especially given that, like the sense of community with Asia—among Asian Americans are very—it's very important to like our culture.

01:55:12.140 - 01:55:29.500

Yeah, and I think that's where, you know, we are probably because even in the families we're in, and, you know, the-the just more cautious and conservative-conservative about health and staying safe, and— So I think that's where we tend to also be

01:55:29.850 - 01:55:42.850

more abiding by like, hey, let's stay at home, and let's not do as much, you know, in-person stuff. And so, yeah, we definitely do feel a loss of that kind of-of community, especially, you know, virtual is—it's-

01:55:42.850 - 01:55:54.100

it's better than nothing, but I mean, it still doesn't—it doesn't compare to-to really being in person with each other spending-spending that kind of quality time. So I would

01:55:54.100 - 01:56:08.520

just be encouraging them to—and specifically, you talking about Christian? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, is-is-is really realizing that there is the physical health that we need to be

01:56:08.550 - 01:56:23.260

concerned with. And I think we are doing, at least at HCC, we are very concerned about protecting physical health, not being-not being—not contributing to community spread. And I think that's important.

01:56:23.860 - 01:56:37.160

But we also need to understand that-that prolonged separation is causing a decline in spiritual health. And so we can't overlook spiritual health. And now we need to think

01:56:37.160 - 01:56:51.690

of creative ways to try to maintain both priorities, so that we're still saying safe, and we're not taking unnecessary risks. But I don't think it's healthy in the long term, especially right now.

01:56:51.690 - 01:57:07.290

We've been like—like we've been separated from church for over six months. And I-I would encourage that we start thinking of creative ways to be able to physically gather, but in a-in a

01:57:07.290 - 01:57:25.820

safe way, and it's probably gonna involve outdoors, it's probably you know—and-and-and now, good thing the weather, hopefully is turning—getting better. Yeah. So whether it's for you college students, or even if it's for church members, I think we need to start looking into ways to still provide online

01:57:25.820 - 01:57:40.860

options, but to make a greater effort to come up with some alternative ways of gathering because I think, six months of being separated and doing everything virtual is having a-a-a negative effect.

01:57:41.320 - 01:57:54.400

I-I've heard from people even today, at the staff meeting, the Chinese side pastor was expressing some concern that he was hearing from members who are experiencing signs of depression. Um just-just loneliness,

01:57:54.740 - 01:58:10.180

especially some of the—some of the-the-the older members, especially the ones that are-that are seniors, or they-they-they're—or if they're older singles. They're not experiencing the pandemic with family, they're by themselves, having a very difficult time right now because it's

01:58:10.180 - 01:58:24.110

gone on much longer than anyone expected. So yeah, I-I would-I would just advise that physical health is important. Spiritual health equally important. And right now, what we're doing is good for

01:58:24.110 - 01:58:40.940

physical health, but it's harming our spiritual health so we got to find out some way to-to address the prolonged separation. And I'm not at all saying, like, oh, we just need to go back into our buildings and ignore all the what—no no no, I'm-I'm-I'm equally cautious.

01:58:41.600 - 01:58:52.400

But I do think we need to come up with maybe some ideas. So I was even talking today to staff. What about a drive-in service? You know, I've heard some churches doing that, you know?

01:58:53.040 - 01:59:03.600

If you're willing to drive-thru at Chick-fil-A, if-if-if you're willing to do that, then what's the difference in the drive-in service at church, we got a parking lot, you know? So I think we need

01:59:03.620 - 01:59:17.430

to start thinking on that level, instead of just waiting for things to improve, because we've been waiting for six months, it really hasn't improved that much. Yeah. I'm kind of tired of just sitting back and waiting. I want to come up with something-something safe, but something different.

01:59:18.000 - 01:59:31.900

And so I would encourage you in any-any Christian that whatever level of influence they have, you know, even on the, you know, cell group level. Yeah, I think you should still probably do your meetings on Zoom, because you have students not even in Houston right now, right?

01:59:32.440 - 01:59:45.640

But the ones that are in Houston, maybe there is a chance to do something in a park, you know, or just do a drive- drive—you know, drive up next to each other or go to a drive-in movie—go to a drive-in movie theater together, or—you know, something like that.

01:59:45.640 - 02:00:00.450

Just something-something different than just everything on Zoom. Right? So yeah, I-I-I'm gonna try to do that for myself, even for my own community group. And-and hopefully even for our Church,

02:00:00.800 - 02:00:13.840

we can be able to maybe do something out-outdoors or drive-in or something like that. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, that's all the questions I have. Is there anything else that like, you want to add or anything?

02:00:14.140 - 02:00:28.300

No, I'm good, I'm good. Yeah, yeah, Helen I just really appreciate this because this gives us a chance to-to talk, and for you, get to know me a little better. So, I'm really glad that it was you interviewing me, even though, you know, I wouldn't mind meeting someone else, but I'm so much happier that it's you.

02:00:28.650 - 02:00:38.480

So you get to know me as your pastor, better—so you probably know me now better than most of the college students. You know my story. So I think that's great. Okay, yeah. Thank you so much.