00:00:02.500 - 00:00:14.710

Go ahead. Alright, so today is July 6, 2021. My name is Chelsea Li, and I'm here with Dr. James Tang. And I will be conducting a shortened Chinatown interview.

00:00:15.340 - 00:00:27.870

So thank you for being here today and let's get started. So yeah, were you ever involved in the old Chinatown that is located in what is considered now as downtown Houston?

00:00:28.860 - 00:00:41.490

Well, you know, I–I grew up here in Houston. And when I was a youngster, I belonged to the Chinese Baptist Church, which used to be located on Lamar Street, which is the location of the present

00:00:41.670 - 00:00:54.320

Brown Convention Center. And the old Chinatown was only, you know, blocks away from that church and my friends and I would occasionally, you know, go there and have lunch or something like that. So

00:00:54.470 - 00:01:09.010

that's the extent of my familiarity with the old Chinatown, but I am familiar with it. Yeah. So what restaurants, businesses, or other like establishments, Chinese establishments, do you

00:01:09.190 - 00:01:24.320

remember? Yeah. Well, let's see, I think there was an On Leong Association that had their meeting place there. And I don't remember the name of any—specifically names of any

00:01:24.380 - 00:01:38.200

restaurants that I went to there. But I did—I think I did remember that association was–was located in that old Chinatown. Can you specify maybe a little bit more about this association?

00:01:39.930 - 00:01:57.490

Hmm. Well, from what I remember, it was a gathering place for, you know, the Chinese Americans who just recently immigrated from China. And they would—and as I recall as a youngster,

00:01:57.960 - 00:02:10.200

was mostly older folks. And they would gather there and I think play Mahjong and, you know, and have tea and–and socialize. So from what I recall, that particular

00:02:12.420 - 00:02:30.030

restaurant was a meeting place of–of the older Chinese peop—generation of people that mostly, you know, were recent immigrants from China. So, how much space did this Chinatown occupy?

00:02:31.400 - 00:02:47.610

From what I recall, it was only like a block or so. And there–there were also some Chinese stores that were located there that sold Chinese goods and Chinese drugs and things like that.

00:02:47.610 - 00:03:00.080

So I do recall that besides the On Leong Association, and some restaurants—in fact, I think maybe the name of a restaurant that used to be located there was called Sun Deluxe, S-U-N

00:03:00.130 - 00:03:10.750

D-E-L-U-X-E, as I recall. So that–that might be the restaurant that–that I used to go to as a youngster. Sun Deluxe and–and then, and then there was a

00:03:12.200 - 00:03:24.110

family owned Chinese grocery store located there. And it took only about a block. Just a small shopping center. Yeah, do you recall the name of the grocery

00:03:25.050 - 00:03:36.170

store that you mentioned? That I don't remember, you know, if it comes to me later, I'll let you know. It–it may, but I don't— often I don't remember.

00:03:36.360 - 00:03:52.070

But–but my family and I used to frequently buy our Chinese groceries there. After church, we would drop by there and–and pick up Chinese groceries. And that was about the only place in Houston that we could get Chinese groceries when I was a youngster

00:03:52.070 - 00:04:08.040

growing up. I guess what types of people would visit this Chinatown? Like immigrants, younger people, like what types of people would you recall seeing?

00:04:08.410 - 00:04:20.610

Well, from what I remember, it's mostly older folks that, you know, by then—but of course, back then, anyone over 50 I considered an older folk. So, probably people in their 50s and 60s seem to

00:04:20.740 - 00:04:38.020

frequent that–that area back then. I see. Would you say most of the visitors over there, did they live near the area or would people commute to get there from different places? Yeah, I didn't know where they lived.

00:04:38.370 - 00:04:52.220

But I think, now there–there were some families that lived nearby. In fact, you know, it's possible that the owner of the grocery store actually lived behind the grocery store, I might remember.

00:04:52.680 - 00:05:10.520

So I think there were people that, you know, lived close by or directly in the area, and then others, like my family, commuted. We lived near the Hobby Airport area at that time and we would commute to church, which was, you know,

00:05:10.520 - 00:05:21.620

downtown, and then we would drive to the–the old Chinatown. And then after getting our groceries and–and such, then we would drive back home near the Hobby Airport area.

00:05:21.620 - 00:05:38.390

I see. Do you know—or do you have an idea of maybe why these businesses would want to establish their stores in that downtown area, or like what attracted them to the downtown area?

00:05:40.480 - 00:05:57.650

Well, I think that was kind of a convenient area for people to get together, being that it was located downtown, and the–the–the main freeway that ran from about where we live was called the Gulf

00:05:57.710 - 00:06:14.050

Freeway. And it ended downtown, right near that area, within blocks of that area. So it was conveniently located back then, and–and then, of course, Houston was, you know, much smaller city when I was

00:06:14.050 - 00:06:27.840

growing up in the–in the 1950s. We only had about 750,000 people in all of Houston compared to you know, over 4 million nowadays. So Houston was a much smaller city back then.

00:06:28.380 - 00:06:42.600

And–and that Chinatown was, I think, just conveniently located for people to–to get to. Yeah, I see. Do you know maybe what the reason

00:06:42.960 - 00:06:58.030

would be for the Chinatown in downtown to relocate to Bellaire now? Well, one, you know, the Chinese population in Houston expanded rapidly in–in the 50s and–and

00:06:58.760 - 00:07:18.560

thereafter. My family was among one of the more earlier generation of Chinese to immigrate to Houston. And we're originally from the Toisan area of–of China, which is outside of the

00:07:18.560 - 00:07:30.810

big city of Guangzhou. And then later on, we had more immigrants coming in from Hong Kong that were Cantonese speaking.

00:07:31.200 - 00:07:47.260

And then after that, there were—in the, I would say, 90s or so, then we had more people coming from Taiwan, more Chinese people coming from Taiwan. And then– then in the, you know, more recent 10 to 20 years,

00:07:47.640 - 00:08:02.880

we've had a large influx of Chinese from Mainland China. So there were several waves of migration of Chinese into the Houston area in the past 40 years. And so the Chinese population grew quite a bit

00:08:03.360 - 00:08:14.940

since I was growing up here in–in Houston in the 1950s. And so as the Chinese population grew, I think it partly, you know, outgrew the limited area

00:08:15.430 - 00:08:32.370

of downtown Houston, which back then was only one block. And so, the Chinese businesses started, you know, establishing in the Bellaire area, and back then the Bellaire area was newer part of Houston.

00:08:32.760 - 00:08:47.740

And there was much more room for expansion of businesses. And so gradually more and more businesses located on Bellaire and then grew. I would say they started out near the Sharpstown Mall

00:08:47.740 - 00:09:04.050

area, which is near the intersection of Bellaire Boulevard and Highway 59, and then moved further west. And then now, you know, with Beltway Eight and the intersection of Bellaire Boulevard, that seems

00:09:04.430 - 00:09:22.220

now the more epicenter of the new Chinatown and–and that—and then as–as the Vietnamese population increased in China, especially after 1975 with the–the fall of Saigon, we had a large influ-influx

00:09:23.670 - 00:09:33.840

of Vietnamese people. And they also gathered in the Bellaire area too. So Chinatown also kind of morphed into Viet-town as well.

00:09:33.840 - 00:09:52.060

Yeah, that's super cool. Do you know if you saw some of the old businesses from downtown in the new Chinatown, like, did the same businesses from the downtown—old downtown Chinatown area

00:09:52.450 - 00:10:06.010

influence kind of the move, or were—was it kind of like new businesses just started arising in the Bellaire area? I think it was primarily new businesses, and many–many more new businesses.

00:10:06.010 - 00:10:22.010

I have to admit I don't recognize any of the old businesses that were in the old Chinatown, and then establishing in the new Chinatown area. But you know, there–there were some, there were—but, you know,

00:10:22.500 - 00:10:36.290

Chinese restaurants have come and gone over the years. And so I think some of the earlier ones may have, you know, just gone out of business as–as the owners grew older and retired. And–and so I think the

00:10:36.420 - 00:10:52.540

businesses that are currently, you know, along Bellaire Boulevard and–and surrounding areas are mostly new businesses. Okay, I see. Can you talk about the new Chinato—current Chinatown

00:10:53.140 - 00:11:06.590

in Bellaire as early as you can remember it? Well, the—my earliest memories of the new Chinatown would be probably, you know, from the

00:11:07.790 - 00:11:20.410

1980s and 1990s. And at that time, I was practicing and living in Northwest Houston, in the Cy-Fair area. My office was off of FM

00:11:20.410 - 00:11:35.950

1960 and Jones Road near Highway 290. And we lived near there, but being that— excuse me—both my wife and I like Chinese food, you know, we would go often

00:11:37.420 - 00:11:53.600

for Chinese food to the Chinatown area. So I remember we would drive from Northwest Houston. And—but back then 290 was only a small two lane road. And now it's expanded into, you know, six

00:11:53.970 - 00:12:08.170

lane highway. But back in the early 1980s, it was only two lane and we would take 290 and small, relatively small streets like Dairy Ashford and

00:12:09.340 - 00:12:26.850

Eldridge down to Bellaire from where we used to live. And then I would say 20- 25 years ago, the-the Beltway Eight was built and so we started being able to take Highway 290 to Beltway Eight which would take us directly to

00:12:27.280 - 00:12:41.640

Bellaire Boulevard, and it made the commute to the new Chinatown much shorter. And so—and–and there were a host of good Chinese restaurants that we liked in–in that area like

00:12:43.400 - 00:12:56.850

Golden Bowl. So, I forget the names of a lot of them but that we used to like to frequent, and they would be located in the Bellaire area. Bellaire, Gessner was—

00:12:56.850 - 00:13:13.330

the intersection of Bellaire and Gessner was at–at one time called the epicenter of the new Chinatown, and then like I said earlier, as more businesses opened up, they tend to migrate westwardly toward the

00:13:13.330 - 00:13:27.980

Beltway, and then now past the Beltway to streets like, you know, Kirkwood, Wilcrest, and Kirkwood, and Dairy Ashford. And so yeah, so yeah, we used to

00:13:28.620 - 00:13:44.040

commute. And then about five years ago, we–we moved to—closer to Chinatown, in–in—off of Westheimer and Will Crest. And being located closer to Chinatown was one

00:13:44.180 - 00:13:58.740

of our motivations actually, for relocating from Cy-Fair area to–to where we live now in a subdivision called Royal Oaks. And so I'm only now, you know, five or ten minutes from Chinatown

00:13:59.470 - 00:14:18.220

and–and we can visit the—our favorite restaurants more easily. And then of course, buy Chinese groceries and things like that more conveniently than we used to. Yeah, yeah. And can you tell me a bit more about

00:14:19.340 - 00:14:28.760

some of the first establishments that you remember? Were they more so restaurants, shops, maybe banks or something like that? Like what–what

00:14:29.950 - 00:14:43.950

types of establishments, and maybe any names that you recall? Hmm. Let's see. Well, you know, I've–I’ve always, through my business, banked with Chase Bank.

00:14:44.530 - 00:15:03.100

And Chase Bank—well, let’s see, earlier was called Texas Bank back 20, you know, 20- 30 years ago, and–and they would have branches in Chinatown. In fact, Chase Bank in—located

00:15:03.100 - 00:15:16.550

on Bellaire and Corporate is–is I think one of the larger banks in Chinatown, and I think they've been there for quite a few years. And I–I still do some of my banking there.

00:15:16.790 - 00:15:32.350

But, you know, other banks that have risen in that area are like American Chinese Bank, Golden Bank, East West Bank. And so some of the, some of the

00:15:32.350 - 00:15:47.050

new–new bank-banks are actually, you know, from China. And then they're also, you know, the–the American banks like–like Chase and Bank of America and such, they all have branches in the

00:15:47.050 - 00:16:03.780

Chinatown area. But like I said, also banks from–from Taiwan and from Mainland China, also open branches there. So, another Chinese bank, I think, would be considered Metro Bank, which is also located

00:16:03.780 - 00:16:20.680

there. And–and I think they cater to all the businesses that are in Chinatown, and all the Chinese people that live in–in that—in this area. So those are the banks that I recall,

00:16:20.680 - 00:16:38.340

as–as time—as–as I was, you know, visiting Chinatown. And so there are more and more banks that have–have opened along there, as well. But—and then, you know, certainly restaurants and grocery

00:16:38.340 - 00:16:56.210

stores, bakeries, and things like that have all opened up in the–in the Chinatown area. And from what I can see, you know, the business is prospering in the Chinatown area, even after we had a kind of

00:16:56.210 - 00:17:08.390

hiatus with the COVID last year where many of the businesses were shut down. But now, many of them are opening back up. And it seems like business is–

00:17:08.390 - 00:17:25.380

is starting to, to build up again in those places. Now, I–I might mention that, yeah, early on when I was growing up in Houston, we really didn't have even a dim sum, which is, you know, very popular

00:17:25.780 - 00:17:39.090

Chinese lunch. And I recall for a good dim sum, we'd have to go to San Francisco or New York City. And then as time went by, more and more restaurants in Houston started offering

00:17:39.280 - 00:17:53.130

dim sum and now I think the dim sum in–in some of the Houston Chinese restaurants are as good as, you know, we can get anywhere. So we don't have to go to the East Coast or West Coast for

00:17:53.130 - 00:18:03.610

good Chinese food anymore. So that's quite—that's really nice. But yeah, so for a long time, you know, we didn't have, you know, dim sum here in–in Houston, and—or you know, good dim sum.

00:18:04.620 - 00:18:18.170

And–and–and good China—Chinese food too. But–but, you know, there are many good Chinese restaurants here now that I think are comparable to any in New York Chinatown or San Francisco Chinatown.

00:18:18.990 - 00:18:32.900

Yeah, that's very nice. And what would you say was like the demographic of the area during the time? Is it kind of similar to how it is today? Like the type of people that lived in Bellaire back then

00:18:32.900 - 00:18:49.360

compared to now? Or would you say there's maybe more of a Chinese population now that the Chinatown has been in the area? I see. Well, let's see, I think, yeah, there's certainly, you know,

00:18:49.360 - 00:19:02.760

more and more Chinese that are, you know, moving into the Chinatown area. And then of course, some of the recent immigrants would like to, you know, live there because they can speak Chinese and

00:19:04.250 - 00:19:19.800

Cantonese, Mandarin, to people there and congregate more easily. But you know, also recently, there have been a huge influx and growth in the

00:19:19.800 - 00:19:28.620

Vietnamese population. So in the Bellaire area, not only are there Chinese, but there are also large population of Vietnamese.

00:19:29.010 - 00:19:48.030

But then, as far as the Chinese population in Houston, a large amount of growth in our Chinese population has concentrated in southwest Houston, you know, in–in Fort Bend

00:19:48.030 - 00:20:04.920

County, Sugar Land Area, and Missouri City area. There are, you know, many Chinese families in–in that part of Houston, which is farther west and further south than the new Chinatown off of Bellaire.

00:20:05.420 - 00:20:24.130

So I would say that not only is there a congregation of Chinese in the Bellaire Chinatown area, but also in Southwest Houston in the Sugar Land, Missouri City area. I see.

00:20:24.130 - 00:20:41.410

Do you—okay, I think I'm on kind of like my final set of questions. But do you know what the earliest Chinese businesses in Houston were, even if they were not in the downtown area? Do you know what these businesses might have been?

00:20:42.700 - 00:20:54.390

Mhm, good question. Yeah. Well, yeah, in my memory, you know, some of the earliest Chinese businesses that I recall as a youngster growing up in Houston in the

00:20:54.390 - 00:21:08.660

1950s, would be Chinese restaurants and grocery stores. Yeah, for some reason, we did not have as many Chinese laundries as other parts of

00:21:08.660 - 00:21:25.370

the country, because I know in Philadelphia and East Coast and other places like that, the early Chinese population were involved in–in the laundry business. And I don't recall that being as much of a factor

00:21:25.880 - 00:21:39.190

here in Houston, but yeah, grocery stores that–that were owned by Chinese, they were not necessarily Chinese grocery stores, they would be, you know, like Mom-and-Pop grocery stores, and many of them

00:21:39.190 - 00:21:56.200

would be located in–in the Black parts of town that are mostly minorities, and they seem to prosper in those areas. And–and then I have an uncle who

00:21:56.600 - 00:22:12.780

was one of the earliest restauranteurs in the Houston area. I think in the 50s, he and some partners opened a–a Chinese restaurant called the Ming Palace, located on West

00:22:12.780 - 00:22:30.100

Gray just outside of the River Oaks area. And–and that was one of the premier Chinese restaurants in Houston for–for many years in the early 50s and–and 60s. And I remember, most of the Chinese

00:22:31.430 - 00:22:46.480

weddings and birthday parties, things like that were held at the Ming Palace restaurant. And so that was, I think, one of the earliest, bigger Chinese restaurants in in the Houston area.

00:22:47.060 - 00:23:02.080

But there were also a number of them that started in the South Main area. Most of them are all gone now, but off of South Main was—and Kirby area,

00:23:02.900 - 00:23:19.760

there were at least half a dozen or more prominent Chinese restaurants. See the names of them, Lee's Den was one that was in South Main area. Let's see, Timmy Chan was one of

00:23:19.760 - 00:23:35.050

the earlier Chinese restauranteurs here in Houston. And actually, he still has some restaurants that are open by that name, it’s called Timmy Chan's. And let's see, and, you know,

00:23:36.730 - 00:23:47.170

and I think, you know, the Gee family in Houston own some Chinese restaurants, also in South Main area. I forget the names of

00:23:47.170 - 00:24:04.640

them, but—of the restaurants, but they were owned by the prominent Gee family. Okay, I see. And do you know if any of these restaurants or businesses are still here now?

00:24:05.570 - 00:24:19.040

And if not, do you know if they were relocated or just…? Hmm. Well, most of the ones that I remember from–from my childhood days growing up are no longer around.

00:24:19.920 - 00:24:37.200

You know, they—the—I think when their owners passed away, I think most of them ended up closing. And–and new restaurants, you know, took their place, but I don't remember, you know, of any of the restaurants that I used to know as a

00:24:37.200 - 00:24:52.970

youngster being still around now. So I think that concludes all of my questions. Is there anything that I might have missed that you would like to add? No, no, I think

00:24:54.350 - 00:25:07.520

that, you know, pretty much sums up my memories of Chinatown, the old Chinatown, and then the new Chinatown, and–and how it's grown and changed over the years. So I think

00:25:07.610 - 00:25:08.610

yeah, that covers it.