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Thank you again very much for coming to this interview with us. Just for the tape could you tell use your name and when and where you were born? Okay, my full name is Han

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H-a-n, Jack Joe Junior. I was born in Vicksburg Mississippi in 1942. I grew up in a town called Rolling Fork, Mississippi, which is 45 miles north of Vicksburg.

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So and I lived in Rolling Fork until I graduated from high school in 1960 and then I came to Houston in 1960, been here ever since. And you have… how many siblings do you have?

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Three brothers. Okay, could you tell me a bit about how it was like growing up with your brothers and like your family dynamic was like? Well we grew up in this

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store that we call a supermarket. It was huge, it carried everything from groceries to hardware to house ware, guns, ammunition, we made keys, we sold

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farm equipment and supplies. We were the largest store in the town and we also delivered people's groceries when they called in to place their orders.

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Back then there was no concern about crime. Everyone left their doors open and so when I went to deliver them I just walk into the house, place the stuff in the refrigerator if need be and

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left the other groceries. My three brothers I grew up with were probably the, well not probably, they alone with my cousins who

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lived in the store were our own playmates because back then we were not really accepted by the Caucasians. I probably had more black friends than I had white friends for a long time.

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So there was always at least three families that lived in the store, and the parents, the fathers were usually the partners of the store. Who else other than your family did you spend a lot of time

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with growing up? Well throughout Mississippi there's a bunch of cousins. They were mostly Joe's who came from the same region in China. And when I was growing up it was hard to find a girl to date

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because they were all my cousins. So, and the family who were not related had boys. So if there was a dance and I needed a date I'd have to drive 200 miles to Memphis Tennessee...

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Oh wow. Pick up a date, drive back to Mississippi to the dance, and drive her home afterwards before driving 200 miles back home. So it was a lot of fun, I was young so it didn't bother

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me. After I dropped off my date I would, a bunch of us would get together at one of my other cousins house to spend the rest of the night dancing and talking,

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creating new dances and things like that. This, that was just the common thing to do. Sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, and back then when you go to these dances, all the girls would be sitting on one side,

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the guys on the other side. When the music started the guys would get up, go there, ask a girl to dance, then escort them back. I know you find that funny...

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That's cute, that's very sweet. Because when they take you to a dance today they're with you all day. Mhmm. Would you tell us some other childhood memories that might be special to you?

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Special... Well there was this one time, I was at a neighbor's yard in a tree and I saw my dad's car go really fast on the highway.

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I got home and found out that my youngest brother had fallen out the window out of the second story. And since we didn't have a hospital in my town he had to drive him 45 miles to Vicksburg to go to the hospital and he ended up with a

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broken hip and that was it. So he was in a cast for a long time. But growing up I... I really don't have too

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many bad memories, never had any problems with people picking on me except for when I went to school in the...

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I think I was in 7th grade, there was this boy who kept picking on me and calling me names and stuff like that. I was tired of it and at recess one day we got into a fight. I beat him up and then we became best friends.

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That's great. Wow. And other than that, that was the only time that I encountered discrimination of that nature. But you have to also understand that back then when I was growing up,

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we were not considered whites, so if we went to a department store you would see these water fountains that would be labeled white and color, restrooms that were labeled white and

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color. We would have to go to the color section and when I rode the bus, I had to sit in the back with the blacks. When I went to the theater we had to go around the back and go

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up into the balcony and sit with the blacks. And for the longest time the white barbershop would not cut our hair so my mom would cut everybody's hair.

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Until about a year or so after my cousin, a cousin of mine who's a female was of school age and she couldn't get into the white schools. So her parents moved her to

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Greenville where she could be going to a white school. Then when I became school age they allowed me to integrate schools and I was allowed to join churches and things like that and go

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get my hair cut in the barbershops. How did this discrimination between white and color make you feel? Did you see it as discrimination? Well you know back then being you and naive

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I thought that was commonplace, so I didn't question it. What happened then as you grew up and you noticed that this wasn't the norm? Well as I grew up I really started taking offense to people making fun of me and my race

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because growing up, initially I was embarrassed to be Chinese and my parents speaking Chinese in public, and... but after I grew up I came to accept it because

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people should be accepted for who they are, not what they are. What age would you say that you started to really notice this? Probably in high school because I was... my brothers and I were very well accepted by that

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time by the community, and I participated in different areas of the school. I was member of the Spanish and Latin club, I was...

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I played two instruments in the band, had two brothers who also played brass instruments. I was in a Dixieland band. I played football.

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I played baseball. I played tennis. Wow, you were really involved. Yeah. One of my brothers, William who's the second oldest,

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was into baseball and he was the catcher, and he was an all-state catcher. That's awesome. Which is really something for back then. When you were growing up, as you got older were there more Asians

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or Chinese that moved into your area or did it stay the same? Say that again, I'm sorry. Did more Chinese or Asian immigrants move into your area as you were growing older? Well not at the time.

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We had in addition to the three families that lived in the store there were 1, 2... at least three other Asian families, or Chinese families there.

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One was a Chinese man who was married to a black woman because back then there were very few Chinese women available, and sometimes the Chinese men would

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marry black women and because of that the other Chinese would not associate with them, and he had a store across the bridge and none of us ever really associated with him.

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I see. Also we noticed you put Toisan as your first language but then how did you learn to speak English fluently? When I first started school.

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When I started first grade I didn't speak a word of English. So after I started speaking English I quit speaking Chinese. My parents and the other adults in the store were tutored by two

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Caucasian ladies through the fifth grade level. One lady was named Mrs. Kirkman and the other one was named Mrs. Cogdell. And my third brother here

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with the glasses on, was named after a combination of their names. His name is Kirkdell, from Kirkman and Cogdell. So he's probably go the only name like that in the world. Mhmm. That's interesting.

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What language did you speak at home? Pardon? What language did you speak at home? At home... now or then? Then When you were growing up

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Then I spoke mainly English until I quit speaking Chinese because I would get embarrassed, because you know how the Chinese language is a singsong, especially with our dialect.

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Mhmm If you made a pitch one way it means something else and I got tired of getting laughed at. I see So I quit speaking Chinese until I came to Houston and started playing mahjong with some

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older people, then I had to start speaking again. So what language were you speaking when you came to Houston, was it Toisan or was it Cantonese or… No it was... well it was from the Chinese, China...

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part of China. Guangdong. I didn't know at the time but when I went back to China in 2008 I was in, we visited this place called Kaiping,

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which back then when my parents were there before the communists took over, it was called Hoiping. And after I had gotten home and got my dad's immigration records I found out he was born there.

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My mother and father never spoke about China, ever. So that's how I found out a little bit about them. I know there was, this area in Southern China around the Guangdong province where most of the

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Chinese who were in America, they were emigrated from that part of China. That's why there are so many cousins. I see. So would you consider yourself still fluent in Toisan now?

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I don't speak it... or try not to speak it, but I don't have to. I've been co president of ACOH, it's the American Chinese American Organizations of Houston

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which is comprised at that time of almost 30 Chinese organizations and most of them spoke Mandarin. Before I took office I told them, you all know I don't speak Chinese so my

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meeting will be held in English. I knew very well they can understand and speak it you know, so there was never a problem and I find it a little ironic that I would lead such an organization

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I see And I'm still involved with them today So when did your family originally immigrate to the United States? My dad came here in... don't tell me I

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forgot, no I had... forgot to bring it No worries I... when I checked his passport he came here in 1929 I believe, at the

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age of 16 on the USS Taft. He came through Seattle. My mom was I believe a mail order bride from the same province area because she was a Wong originally,

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and the Wong family was from that area too. It's like my mother in law. So your parents were in Seattle for a while? No, my dad when he cleared the immigration there he went

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straight to Mississippi. He was what they call a paper son. I don't know if you're familiar with that or not. But back then Chinese

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were not allowed to emigrate to the United States unless they had relatives there so people who were already in the United States would kind of sponsor individuals and say that they're my

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relative, my son, my daughter, my nephew, whatever. And so they can get a passport and come over. But before they did that any paper son or paper daughter who was not really

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a relative had to know everything about the sponsor. His life, everything about the village where he grew up because when I finally got my dad's immigration records and looked at

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all the immigration questions I couldn't believe all the questions that they would ask him. He had to answer correctly. They would ask him if he had wood floor, dirt floor? They had... how many

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bathrooms? That's crazy Things like that. They would say, there are four villages around your hometown. And you had to know if that was true or not and you had to know the name and

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location of each village. Questions like that. That's so difficult Yeah but basically, the people that came here knew the type of questions they ask.

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So there were a lot of people who became paper fathers or parents you know, so they knew what questions and answers to give people they were sponsoring. Sometimes when you come

00:18:01.570 - 00:18:18.500

through immigration they might not ask you any questions if you gave them a lot of money. Ohh Otherwise you could be there for a long time. Even though you answer the questions

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correctly. Mhmm I see. Did your father and your mom come alone when they were immigrating over? My mom came alone. Like I said she was a mail order bride and I was told she was from a

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well to do family in China. Then when did your family move, or why did your family move from Vicksburg to Houston? Well the didn't live in Vicksburg they lived in Rolling Fork. I moved, I came to Houston to go

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to University of Houston and I had relatives here, and a lot of friends, and I didn't want to stay in Mississippi because I was afraid if I went to school there I would never leave Mississippi, and

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most of my high school classmates stayed in Mississippi or they stayed in the town where they grew up. I didn't want to do that. I see But my parents in

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1967 sold their interest in the store and moved to Greenville, Mississippi which was 45 miles north of there and right after they bought the store I got drafted in the army,

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so that's what my army pictures... So what age were you when you went to the army? Pardon? What age were you when you went to the army? I was... I thought I was going to be able to get out of the draft, but the

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head of the draft board in Rolling Fork was the wife of my dentist and she was, they were good friends of the family, and she was drafting all of the local boys in town until she ran out, then she called me here in

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Houston and said Jack I'm sorry but I'm going to have to draft you because I don't have any more boys to draft. So this was in 1967. Hmm, wow

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And I was in hot missile battery. Fortunately I didn't get sent to Vietnam but that wouldn't have bothered me either but I was stationed in Fort Bliss, Texas and McGregor Range, New

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Mexico. Fort Bliss is the NATO training grounds and they also had the German air force there. McGregor Range was as big as the state of Delaware, it's where the NATO countries came in to

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do their test firing and I would grade their performance when they came in. My youngest brother Howard was drafted a year after me and he was in Vietnam. When he came back to Houston he

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found out that he could no longer perspire because of Agent Orange. And to this day he still can't perspire because it's so hot and humid here, he thought he'd move to Arizona, which he

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found that didn't help. So he eventually went to California, to the north part of California where he lives today. He still can't perspire and it caused him to lose one of

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his eyes. How long were you in the army for? Just two years But you were with all of your brothers, at some point overlapping or Ah yeah, we overlapped service actually, at that time my

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brother in law was over there too. Really He was about the same age as me; he was about two weeks younger than me. He was over there and other than that when I was in basic training I ran into one of my sister in law's brother

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from Seattle, in basic training. He was in advanced infantry training then and he got sent to Vietnam, where he was eventually shot in the knee by his own men because they thought he

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was the enemy. He was on point which means you're way out in front scouting for the enemy and warning the rest of them, and they thought he was one of the enemy so they

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opened up on him. How did you feel when you first found out that you were drafted? It really didn't bother me because I felt at that time and now, that I

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owe this country a lot because of what they gave my parents. And if my parents weren't here I wouldn't be here today, and I feel the same way now and all the members of my

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American Legion post 596 feel the same way. We would serve again in a heartbeat. Growing up I knew one of my uncles, actually two of my uncles who lived in the store were in the army but they never talked about their

00:23:54.340 - 00:24:12.060

experiences and then one of my wife's cousins Lewis Yi was always talking about his experiences in the Flying Tigers. And he, when he found out where I was from I found

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out he knew my uncle because they would go to these yearly Flying Tiger reunions, and to my surprise he gave me my home address. He told me what my home address was.

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He was my uncle's sergeant in the Flying Tigers. Small world I still have probably four or five ex Flying Tigers who are still alive in my American Legion

00:24:48.990 - 00:25:08.000

unit. Are you still in contact with a lot of your relatives either in Mississippi or back in China? Most of my relatives, around my

00:25:08.000 - 00:25:15.700

age have left Mississippi. So they're all over. A lot of them are here in Houston. A lot of them are on the west coast.

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We either left Mississippi to come to Texas, Houston mainly, or somewhere on the west coast. So I have relatives all up and down California, and I have tons of relatives here in the city.

00:25:33.920 - 00:25:56.610

And we keep up using Facebook. Why did you guys want to leave Mississippi? I wanted to leave Mississippi because I didn't want to get stuck there. I thought there would be better opportunities for me if I were to go to

00:25:56.680 - 00:26:10.360

school somewhere else, especially in a big city like Houston. I never saw tall buildings before in my life until I came to Houston. I never knew what a one way street was.

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When I first came here I started driving down the wrong way. Oh no I had never saw a freeway before. Actually I take that back because in the 50s we would come visit relatives here and the gulf freeway was under construction then.

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It's still under construction. So that's the first time I ever saw a freeway. Do you think your friends and relatives felt the same way that you did leaving Mississippi? I think so, yeah.

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There were better and more opportunities for Chinese, you know, away from Mississippi because back then you're going to be relegated mainly to grocery stores. Since I grew up in a grocery store I didn't want to stay in a grocery

00:27:03.370 - 00:27:19.070

store. Matter of fact when I was majoring in pharmacy for a long time, I had worked off all my hours towards a Texas pharmacy license. I told myself this is like growing up in a grocery

00:27:19.070 - 00:27:35.070

store. So I didn't pursue that any further. And I couldn't make up my mind what I wanted to do so I started majoring in different things and then I got drafted, and after I got out of service I had to support a wife and a

00:27:35.390 - 00:27:46.870

one year old daughter. So I'd get a job... I see So I found a job at, then it was called Texas Commerce Bank. Now it's Chase. In the

00:27:47.010 - 00:27:59.950

computer department. I started lowest level you can go, after three months the computer operations supervisor on third shift wanted me to move out there and

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I was refused because I hadn't been there long enough but after about 9 months or so I was moved out there as a computer operator trainee, then I became the lead

00:28:14.470 - 00:28:32.370

operator, then I became supervisor of computer operators who had been there many more years me and from there I moved on up through the ranks to assistance to the main man of department managers of several

00:28:32.370 - 00:28:48.940

departments and stuff like that. I had a 20 something million dollar budget with 200 something employees and 7 or so supervisors and managers. I see. So was the Texas Commerce Bank?

00:28:49.230 - 00:29:06.180

Texas Commerce Bank Was it your first job? My first job was in what did they call it... distribution. My job was to sweep the

00:29:06.260 - 00:29:20.900

floor, get computer supplies for the computer operators and things like that, all the low level duties. And then I got promoted to

00:29:21.580 - 00:29:39.850

what they called the 1419 room, which is a reader sorter for checks. When checks came in you would feed it to this long machine and it would take all the information from the checks and spit them out into the right pockets, and all

00:29:39.850 - 00:29:56.500

that would go along to a tape which they would run a program against. And then from there I became a computer operator. I see, so did you ever change jobs? No I was lucky.

00:29:58.120 - 00:30:13.590

I wanted to change but I kept saying you know, I could change jobs and make a little more money, but then my tenure would have to start over again, and I only wanted

00:30:13.590 - 00:30:30.960

to work a certain amount of time to be qualified for requirement. So I decided to stay there and I have no regrets because as it was, I got to retire at age 57 and that was

00:30:31.120 - 00:30:43.950

almost 15 years ago. And if I had changed jobs I would still be working today. Why did you choose to retire at 57?

00:30:45.220 - 00:31:03.910

Because at that time I had worked on at least 6 bank mergers and with each merger I noticed that the employee benefits were getting worse and worse, and retirement benefits were

00:31:04.060 - 00:31:19.360

going down. And my main concern was that to make sure I had full medical insurance before they took that away, so that was... and then I spoke to my financial advisor.

00:31:19.870 - 00:31:31.970

He looked at my account and he said well Jack, if you want to quit you can and if you want to do contract work you can, because I talked to him about doing that.

00:31:33.180 - 00:31:43.250

He said but you don't need to. I said that's all I wanted to hear. So I didn’t want... I really didn't want to be a contractor because I know how

00:31:43.250 - 00:31:57.380

hard I work my contractors. I see. Did you ever experience any discrimination in your workplace? Ahh yes. Matter of fact it was very subtle and it was by my

00:31:57.380 - 00:32:08.070

manager that I had for most of my career there. He was... he would discriminate against me and women.

00:32:08.280 - 00:32:19.420

He would womanize women. And he finally got caught doing that. He was talked to. Then one day I was having one

00:32:19.420 - 00:32:32.510

of my big meetings and he jumped all over me for nothing, for no reason. You know and I just had had it and I told him I'm out of here. I don't need to take this.

00:32:33.250 - 00:32:45.060

And after that all of the other people in the meeting, I mean there were about twenty or so of them, they were the people that followed. They'd known this about him so they went to the big boss and told him, and they finally

00:32:45.350 - 00:32:59.570

forced him to leave. I'd vowed to stay there and not leave until he left first. So... other than that I can't think of any other...

00:32:59.900 - 00:33:17.040

well yeah, I can. I used to train people and they would get promoted to a supervising position before me. And they would move up, and I know it's because I

00:33:18.900 - 00:33:38.050

was Chinese. They liked to hire Chinese because we... we're good, we're good workers and we don't complain. But they didn't know I'm not like that. I speak my mind. And the

00:33:38.080 - 00:33:55.760

last discrimination I faced I think was... when I was at... in a University of Houston chemistry lab. I went to the chemical table to get some chemicals and this guy came up and

00:33:56.020 - 00:34:10.190

pushed me and said get out of the way chink. And I got mad and I said let's go outside and a friend of mine who... she was a cheerleader, cooled me down and chewed him out.

00:34:11.160 - 00:34:21.140

And that's the last time I faced any kind of discrimination. So would you say that most of the discrimination that you faced was when you were a bit younger? Like when do you think...

00:34:21.350 - 00:34:35.880

around what age would you say that you didn't like experience so much? Well the 7th grade was really when I first noticed it and then the last time was when I was at U of H in the chemistry class.

00:34:36.040 - 00:34:47.630

And that was not the last time but throughout my career at the bank, I faced it with my manager, my big... my immediate supervisor. Mhmm, right. Until what age would you say, at work?

00:34:48.190 - 00:35:06.250

Oh, see... what, when did he leave... I must have been... I retired at 57... and he left probably 5, 7 years prior to that.

00:35:06.400 - 00:35:20.410

Wow, so it was the extent of your career. So I was in my 50s. But he was the only one. And he was so subtle about it. He tried not to make it too obvious but other people knew, and they

00:35:20.410 - 00:35:30.940

would hear him. Mhmm How did you meet your wife? Pardon? How did you meet your wife?

00:35:31.360 - 00:35:47.970

Oh that's another funny story. I used to bowl and I was president of a Chinese bowling league and her brother in law and sister used to bowl in the same league, and

00:35:49.860 - 00:36:06.950

her brother in law was a part time butcher. He was a butcher at the store and he asked me if I wanted a part time job being a butcher. I said sure. So I went to work for them as a part time

00:36:06.950 - 00:36:23.820

butcher and I would see my future wife come in every so often late in the afternoon. She'd walk by the meat market there to go to the back and I would say hello to her.

00:36:24.570 - 00:36:38.750

Never answered, not once. And her mother always invited me to stay after the store closed, to eat before I left. So one day I just happened to be sitting next to her and I was

00:36:38.750 - 00:36:54.990

talking to her and she didn't respond. And then finally someone spoke up and said Jack, you're talking into the wrong ear, she can't hear in that ear. What happened was she was about 15 years

00:36:54.990 - 00:37:09.340

old, she woke up and she fell on the floor. She had an inner ear infection and it threw off her balance and most of her hearing was gone so we all

00:37:11.960 - 00:37:28.830

laughed about it. Ohh I quit saying hello to her for a while because I said man, she is a big snob. How old were you? Oh I was 24, 25 or something like that

00:37:29.040 - 00:37:40.510

I see. And, what kind of wedding did you guys have? What kind of? Wedding Wedding? Like a traditional one?

00:37:40.590 - 00:37:54.210

We eloped How fast was your courtship I guess, from when you met? Probably about a year or so Oh okay, was that the norm at the time, would you say?

00:37:54.780 - 00:38:09.950

Probably yeah. Back then young people got married at an earlier age than they do today and you're probably aware of that, which is that young people today are

00:38:09.950 - 00:38:21.790

smarter for doing it because they're more interested in getting their career started. Back then you know, our career was in a store basically, you know, very few opportunities

00:38:22.830 - 00:38:40.610

to get any other type of job, just like my wife who went to UT and the only thing she could major in was education so that's why she became a teacher. Could you tell us about your first child and when he or she was born?

00:38:41.490 - 00:38:58.100

First house? Child Oh my first child. I was in the army and came on leave and we went back to Mississippi to visit my parents and the night before we left I

00:38:58.320 - 00:39:15.460

noticed that her legs were all swollen up and we thought because she's pregnant and she's been walking and riding a car too much, so we didn't think anything of it. And so back to Houston the next day and the day after that I

00:39:15.810 - 00:39:33.220

had to go back because my leave was up, and 3 days later I get a call from one of my sisters in law and said my wife was in the hospital. I said why? She said well, she went to see her

00:39:33.420 - 00:39:47.430

doctor because of the swelling and the doctor took one look at her and put her in the hospital. She had come down with toxemia, with blood poisoning. And so she was in the hospital

00:39:49.190 - 00:40:04.990

until after she gave birth. My daughter was premature. She was 2 pounds 12 ounces and we had already made arrangements through the doctor to have the Red Cross call my commander

00:40:06.620 - 00:40:20.740

if something happened. So when she went in for delivery they had, I was out in the fields somewhere and they had to come and find me and my first sergeant had already made plane reservations, had

00:40:20.740 - 00:40:38.160

my orders cut and all that, and he told me take as much time as I want, and so after I'd landed in Houston I went directly to the hospital and maybe about 30 minutes later, brought out my daughter. The first thing I did was check all her

00:40:38.240 - 00:40:48.860

fingers and toes to see if they were all there because she was so tiny. She's perfectly healthy. She never had a colic, jaundice or anything.

00:40:49.460 - 00:41:03.420

She was just underweight. Normally they don't let babies out of the hospital until they reach five and a half pounds but they let her go before she got to that weight and they flew back, out to El

00:41:03.420 - 00:41:18.280

Paso to join me. And at that time we didn't have a baby crib or anything so we took one of our suitcases, made sure it wouldn't close on her, put pillows in there and rolled up my t-shirt

00:41:19.280 - 00:41:34.940

around the suitcase to cushion her, and that's where she slept. When she started walking we had this Baskin Robins ice cream container that

00:41:36.120 - 00:41:47.120

we made a wastebasket out of paper mache and stuff like that. My daughter would get a habit of climbing inside, and ducking until you couldn't see the top of her head.

00:41:49.940 - 00:42:07.870

And while we were there we had bought a antique baby crib that was probably 8 inches wide and maybe 14 inches long and she would sleep in that. She would climb inside and sleep.

00:42:08.300 - 00:42:21.680

Oh my goodness, that's so small. So she was small. And we never had to buy a stroller because she was always so small and light.

00:42:25.520 - 00:42:44.140

Later when you were raising your daughter, what kind of values did you teach her? I tried to teach her the values of the Asians you know, to respect your elders and things like that. She would never learn to speak Chinese but

00:42:45.050 - 00:42:59.550

she could speak Spanish and French. And when my wife would get mad at her, we would speak to each other in Chinese, and she wanted to know what we were talking about, and I said, “well learn Chinese! You’ll know!” she never did.

00:43:02.850 - 00:43:18.530

Was there anything other than Asian values and any sort of Chinese heritage that you tried to teach her? Well, I wanted her to be self-sufficient. When she was growing up, I wanted her to know the

00:43:18.530 - 00:43:37.050

value of money and how to respect it because when she was growing up, she would want nothing but designer clothes because that’s all her Caucasian friends wore. Even if we went to

00:43:37.050 - 00:43:50.880

TJ Maxx and got the same article, she saw the TJ Maxx tag on it. She would want it. Until she started working. One time she had 4 part time jobs.

00:43:53.410 - 00:44:07.290

Since then, she valued money. She knew how hard it was to get for what little she got and today, she is still frugal. That’s good.

00:44:07.530 - 00:44:22.650

How about education, did it play a big role in your household? Education to most parents is paramount because you always want your kids to do better than you and she was smarter than me and my wife.

00:44:24.010 - 00:44:41.880

She was an honors student throughout. It was just that she didn’t have the work ethic or drive that her parents had, but it’s hard to teach that.

00:44:44.290 - 00:44:59.990

So what does she do now? College? High school? Well she used to work at Child26 until she got health problems, and she still has health problems today. She was always in a lot of pain, constantly.

00:45:00.450 - 00:45:11.050

She thought it was fibermiology, and she finally found a doctor who said that it wasn’t, and it was something else. So a lot of times, even today, she can’t get out of bed.

00:45:13.280 - 00:45:26.370

Is she in Houston or in Texas? She’s in Houston, not that far from me living in an apartment. When she needs money, she’ll call. How else aside from values

00:45:26.660 - 00:45:43.080

would you say Chinese heritage or traditions are celebrated in your family? Holidays or events? Well growing up, the holidays were always a big thing for Asian families and she could see

00:45:43.080 - 00:46:02.230

that early on when we went home to visit my parents, because when I was growing up, during the holidays, the big holidays like Christmas and New Years, my mother and the other aunts

00:46:02.560 - 00:46:17.520

would start preparing for Christmas feasts probably about 2 weeks ahead of time because they would make all the dim sum and stuff like that. So on Christmas, we would have

00:46:19.090 - 00:46:33.020

maybe up to around 300 people from all of Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, come and we had so many mahjong tables set up.

00:46:35.290 - 00:46:53.490

Those people would play mahjong for three days and night. That’s all they did because there’s nothing Mississippi do except play mahjong. That’s where I played at a young age, just watching

00:46:53.920 - 00:47:06.820

them. Would you say you transferred any of those memories growing up into your own family when you were here in Texas? Yea, after we got married and had our daughter, we still had

00:47:07.560 - 00:47:22.040

big events on those days. We celebrated everything, thanksgiving, Christmas, all the birthdays, so it’s important to us.

00:47:22.200 - 00:47:44.610

Because you’re only young for such a short time. When she graduated, I told her I would buy her a car, either before she graduated or after she graduated, but she knew in her

00:47:44.610 - 00:47:58.380

mind that I would buy her a car anyways. So she went to a friend’s house after high school graduation and I drove up in the driveway with a Toyota supra

00:47:59.510 - 00:48:18.130

with a big bow around it and her friends had her come out and showed her her car. I’ve bought maybe three other cars for her since. Would you say that even with American traditions, like thanksgiving or Christmas,

00:48:18.130 - 00:48:40.740

were there any kind of traditions that leaked into it? No, because our traditions were very similar to your Caucasian traditions, other than going to the cemetery and paying respects there with the

00:48:40.860 - 00:48:58.010

meal and the scents and the candles and burning the paper and paper money and bowing and pouring the whiskey out and stuff like that hansan. But we quit doing that

00:48:58.010 - 00:49:14.670

after my mother in law passed away. So then how would you say you reconciled having your Asian identity and also your American identity with all of these different things that you had going on? To me, I thought it was just natural

00:49:15.410 - 00:49:30.830

because I was more American than Chinese after I grew up. All my friends were Americans, I didn’t have any Chinese friends unless I went to visit my cousins, and you had to drive a long ways to visit with them.

00:49:32.930 - 00:49:51.550

So, I think most of my memories were of that nature, as an American not Chinese. So now you’re very involved with these Asian organizations, what

00:49:51.550 - 00:50:05.380

motivated you to really embrace your Chinese identity? Well, before I retired, I was on call 24/7, 365 days a year for

00:50:06.450 - 00:50:20.020

almost 30 years. I didn’t have time to get involved. I would for a little while and then my work schedule wouldn’t allow me to continue and after I retired, one thing I wanted

00:50:20.280 - 00:50:35.300

to do was stay active, so I became active in the Chinese American citizens alliance to start with, which I was also a member of a long time ago before I started working all those crazy hours.

00:50:35.890 - 00:50:49.330

I became its president twice and now I’m on the national board as a national executive. I’ve served two terms as president of the Chinese

00:50:49.810 - 00:51:05.680

professional club; I’ve served as a past commander of my American legion post 596, co- president of the American Chinese American organizations of Houston, what else? I’m on

00:51:06.520 - 00:51:21.040

different boards right now; I wanted to give back to the community because I felt like I owed a lot and I’ve got the time, I’ve got the talent.

00:51:22.970 - 00:51:38.240

I find it hard to say no if someone asks me to do something. How did you first get involved in all of these organizations when you came to Houston? Initially with the Chinese American citizens alliance, when I first came to Houston, they had

00:51:38.240 - 00:51:54.200

a youth club, and I joined that to start with, and that’s how I became knowledgeable about that. The Chinese American citizen’s alliance was started in 1874 I believe.

00:51:55.190 - 00:52:06.810

It’s a civil rights organization. That’s when all the Chinese in California were discriminated against, and that’s how that organization got started. It’s actually older than the NAACP.

00:52:08.450 - 00:52:22.170

And the Chinese professionals club was started 60 years ago, we just finished our 60th gala, and our mission is to

00:52:22.170 - 00:52:36.030

give scholarships to deserving high school students. Many of our recipients go to Rice. Oh wow. I don’t know if you know Steffi Hu... Oh I do! She was Miss Chinatown

00:52:36.120 - 00:52:51.650

I have some other from this year who will be coming here too, and also during June, we had the youth leadership conference here at Rice, which we also sponsor.

00:52:51.650 - 00:53:03.280

We bring in kids from across the nation who want to participate; you girls should probably get involved in that. Okay. We will look into it

00:53:03.280 - 00:53:15.280

Look into it! It’s a good thing. They have a lot of fun but they work hard too. At the end of the day, everyone has a great time, so you can be a mentor

00:53:16.010 - 00:53:32.270

to some of the younger kids that come here. How do you feel that all these organizations that you have been a part of have really influenced or changed younger generations like us and Asian Americans growing up now? Being involved in so many organization

00:53:32.860 - 00:53:52.090

and knowing so many people, most people know me because I’m in the Chinese newspapers a lot. Even if I don’t know that person, they know

00:53:52.090 - 00:54:07.970

me when they see me, and when I talk to young people, I try to stress to them the importance of an education. Most of the, well actually all of the applicants for the chines professionals club

00:54:08.260 - 00:54:25.410

scholarships are so smart. We have so many who scored perfect 2400s, like this year’s top winner took 10 AP exams and scored 5 in all 10 of them.

00:54:25.650 - 00:54:41.620

Karen Lee, who is this year miss Chinatown Houston and current miss Chinatown USA and miss talent was runner-up in a scholarship. She scored a 2400 on the SAT, scored a

00:54:42.660 - 00:54:56.660

5 of the 7 Aps she took. Through the years, as you read these applications from these students, each year my mind gets blown away

00:54:57.110 - 00:55:12.380

by how smart they are. But I don’t care, we don’t care if they’re the smartest students around. If they have no involvement in the community, we throw their

00:55:12.380 - 00:55:25.990

applications aside, because we want our students to be well-rounded, and all of them that receive scholarships are well-rounded students. So I love being

00:55:25.990 - 00:55:38.880

involved with the young people. I love taking care of the kids when they come for the youth leadership conference. I enjoy being involved with the miss Chinatown

00:55:39.450 - 00:55:57.320

pageant; it’s a good feeling to me to watch them grow and be successful. Do you feel that Asian Americans now struggle a lot.. or well what do you believe the Asian

00:55:57.350 - 00:56:16.580

American struggle is right now that we face? Today, because of the professions that their parents are in, they don’t really struggle. I find that they are extremely smart with a lot of common

00:56:16.580 - 00:56:32.990

sense and tremendous manners, so I think they are really brought up correctly. I really don’t see any downfall or shortcomings of our kids

00:56:32.990 - 00:56:50.250

today, but you will get some who won’t put out an effort to be better in what they are. And a lot of times, it’s because of the parents. The parents have to nudge them in the right direction.

00:56:51.460 - 00:57:07.690

If the parents give the opportunities, and the kids want to take advantage of the opportunities, they should. If they don’t, it’s their fault, and they’ll regret it in the future. Would you say that in our community right now or within

00:57:07.800 - 00:57:21.010

Houston that Asian americans still face discrimination? Or disadvantage in any way? I really don’t see it anymore. I really don’t. because now,

00:57:24.860 - 00:57:45.610

even back in Mississippi, people are more friendly with each other now even with the blacks or the Hispanics. You can see that they mesh together a lot better;

00:57:47.620 - 00:58:01.310

even here at rice, you see there is a lot of different international students and you probably get along really well, or I would hope so anyways. I would say so. She’s international. Yeah.

00:58:02.280 - 00:58:15.580

I’m from Japan. Oh. Okay. One of my sister in laws is Japanese. In fact, during world war 2,

00:58:16.690 - 00:58:34.620

they’re from the Seattle area, they were interred. There’s a picture of her mother holding her in her arms when she was a baby at the training depot, as they were

00:58:34.780 - 00:58:49.360

getting ready to be shipped to the internment camp. That picture is a famous picture. It’s been in the Smithsonian, in a Japanese exhibition there, in LIFE magazine many times, it’s been in

00:58:50.380 - 00:59:01.140

movies, the picture has, has been in a lot of movies. Her mother is still living. She is 105 now. Oh my goodness.

00:59:03.530 - 00:59:19.300

She has testified before Congress, she being my sister-in-law’s mother, has testified before congress, and every year, almost without fail, the Seattle Paper does a front page article on her

00:59:19.950 - 00:59:38.880

cuz I think she might be the last survivor of the internment camp. You seem to have a very powerful family in terms of networks and connections. Well, one of my brother-in-laws was Japanese Hawaiian and… and he hated bananas

00:59:41.210 - 01:00:00.680

because when he was growing up, he always ate green bananas and got so sick. After we find out, we try to sneak bananas into, like a banana cake and stuff like that. But no, we are a pretty international family and have Hispanic brother-in-laws, or had,

01:00:00.680 - 01:00:16.100

he passed away. So Japanese, so you know, we’re pretty well diverse. Would you say your parents and your other siblings and family growing up then were very

01:00:16.570 - 01:00:32.810

open to diversifying? No way. No. Like I said, growing up, there were no Chinese girls for me to date, and they

01:00:32.810 - 01:00:50.540

didn’t’ say anything at the time, but when I dated some of my high school friends, there was this new girl who came to town and she was so good looking. She had long blonde hair down to her

01:00:50.540 - 01:01:07.200

waist, and we had our football banquet, and I asked her, and she surprised me and accepted. And all the guys were so jealous and said, “how do you do that?” and I said, “I just asked her!” but

01:01:08.710 - 01:01:28.710

later on, I met a girl from Dallas; her father was Chinese, her mother was Irish, and we got engaged and I called my parents and I told them, and I told them her father’s name, and my dad

01:01:28.710 - 01:01:43.490

got on the phone and chewed me out. Said you are not going to marry her, I’ll disown you. I said, “Why?” I came to find out that her father and my father worked together at Joe Gau New in

01:01:43.600 - 01:02:00.060

Greenville a long time ago and had somehow had a falling out. So he drove all the way to Houston to get me to break off the engagement. I said, “I’m sorry, I’m not gonna break it off

01:02:00.250 - 01:02:11.040

because you want me to. I’m going to be spending my life with her.” But as it turned out, she was Catholic, I was going to become Catholic.

01:02:12.630 - 01:02:25.440

The monsignor, the church was going to send us around the world on a honeymoon and eventually decided that maybe this wouldn’t work out. So we broke it off. She wanted a lot of kids.

01:02:25.910 - 01:02:39.210

Last time I saw her, she had at least 9 kids. Oh my gosh. so then your parents were I guess a little bit more discriminatory growing up to a lot of your

01:02:39.210 - 01:02:54.130

friends? Well it’s not like it is today, all the parents were. You had to marry within your race. If you weren’t, you were going to be disowned, and some of my cousins, they did marry outside, and

01:02:54.130 - 01:03:07.020

they were disowned for a while, till the first baby come along. Then everything’s okay! Then everything changes! Especially if it’s a son or something I did want to ask one thing about your last name,

01:03:08.030 - 01:03:19.740

because it’s not a typical Chinese last name when you initially think of it. How did that come to be, what was it? Well it’s an Americanization of the family name, the

01:03:19.740 - 01:03:33.590

Chinese family name. There’s different variations of it. Joe, it can be spelled j-o-e, j-u-e, j-o-w, c-h-o-w,

01:03:33.760 - 01:03:52.050

c-h-a-o, c-h-o-u. My father’s name on the passport. His first name is spelled chao middle name, siu, last name

01:03:54.320 - 01:04:10.500

chiu. But it’s all from the joe family. I don’t know if you read Chinese. I can a little bit.

01:04:10.500 - 01:04:23.170

Okay. Usually when people ask me where my family came from… you can have that. Oh okay thanks!

01:04:23.170 - 01:04:34.480

So when he came then and was writing out his immigration papers, did he write Joe? No that was later, he had to be what was on there. Oh okay. So then why did he decide to change it?

01:04:35.050 - 01:04:49.800

To Americanize it. Did he feel that he needed to? I never asked him about it. I always thought that was his real name to be honest with you. That’s how naïve I was about the Chinese culture.

01:04:51.380 - 01:05:04.560

Until I saw his passport and the name on it. You kept talking about the immigration papers and the passport you started to find, when did you start investigating and wanting to learn more about your dad’s past?

01:05:05.840 - 01:05:20.680

Probably after I found out the thing about my name, my last name being first. We were a bit confused about that as well. I was very confused for twenty something odd years.

01:05:21.370 - 01:05:37.750

Because they would never talk about it and the people I grew up with, they were like me. They were ABC’s. they didn’t know anything about it either. Sometimes my cousins ask, why’d

01:05:38.570 - 01:05:49.780

your dad sign J. H. jack senior. I said I dunno, but that’s what he has on his license plate, on his car door, and everything else. So when I

01:05:49.860 - 01:06:09.330

found out, that’s when I changed it. So it’s officially changed on all of our birth certificates now. So what motivated you to start looking for these immigration papers. Like I said, when I was in my 20s, when I found

01:06:09.330 - 01:06:26.580

out about how my name appeared on my birth certificate. To get the birth certificate changed, you just

01:06:26.900 - 01:06:39.070

had to pay the lawyer a little bit of money to get it changed officially, and on the birth certificates. And since then, I’ve gotten copies of my birth certificate, and it shows it’s been changed.

01:06:43.630 - 01:06:56.660

I’m sorry, what was the other part of your question? Just asking about how you acquired your dad’s immigration papers, the questions he got asked, and so on. After Daniel Bronstein who was

01:06:56.780 - 01:07:12.950

doing research on the southern Chinese also, start talking to him about how we can get the records of our ancestors. That’s how I knew where to go, after

01:07:12.950 - 01:07:28.990

I found out my dad come through Seattle. On the handout, he gave a contact where you can call and find out. So I went home that night, shot off an email, and 12 hours later I got a response,

01:07:28.990 - 01:07:43.390

and find out dad’s records because I included the front and back of his passport picture and that helped go right to it.

01:07:43.390 - 01:07:52.930

So 40$ I got the transcript. That’s not too bad. oh wow. I

01:07:59.740 - 01:08:14.440

wish I had these documents of my grandparents. Thank you so much for bringing all these I know. Wow. Oh wow. So how did you feel once you actually had all of these documents?

01:08:14.440 - 01:08:28.430

I felt great cuz I could finally find out something about my dad. I had no information on my mother so I couldn’t get hers and she passed away.

01:08:28.830 - 01:08:45.770

In fact, when she passed away, she knew she was gonna die that day. Because going to a wedding in Memphis, and they always stop off on the way back to play mahjong, and

01:08:49.000 - 01:09:05.470

on the way home, they were about 3 miles from home in the city and it was raining hard and the car got something sided on her side and she died. But when I went to see the car, no way this killed

01:09:05.790 - 01:09:23.550

her. She knew it would kill her, she had talked to a friend in Greenville about that. And when dad got home, he found the safe was locked in the bedroom, which they never locked, and when they opened it.

01:09:24.830 - 01:09:43.610

He found that mom had already labeled all the jewelry and things and who she wanted to give it to. And she wore no jewelry that day, and all she had

01:09:43.610 - 01:09:59.300

was some money in her purse to play mahjong. And that wasn’t like her, so she knew she was going to die that day. And then after that, my

01:09:59.300 - 01:10:15.090

dad’s health started failing too because they had been together so long and she used to do so much for her. When you’re together for 60-70 years, you

01:10:16.750 - 01:10:35.810

get pretty close. So my dad suffered some strokes and minor heart attacks, and the last one I got called, and all my brothers got called, and he lasted long

01:10:36.270 - 01:10:49.260

enough to see his four sons, and then we went to have lunch and before our meal came out, we got a call that he had passed away. Was he still in Mississippi at the time?

01:10:50.150 - 01:11:05.350

Pardon? Was he still at Mississippi at the time? Yes yes, he was at Greenville, where he moved to in 1967. Okay. Wow…ok. Do you have any more questions?

01:11:05.350 - 01:11:23.970

No, I think that’s all we prepared. Well, I can tell you when I was growing up, I got a taste for peanuts, roasted peanuts, because among the things we did in the store, and

01:11:24.970 - 01:11:38.800

one of my duties other than sweeping the floor, sweeping the sidewalk outside, stalking, being a butcher, and all that, I had to roast peanuts. We had this big drum where I’d load raw

01:11:39.330 - 01:11:58.490

peanuts and it’s roasted by gas and heat. And we’d roast peanuts for all the football games and things like that, these supporters would ….. and I would just sit there eating peanuts, order

01:11:58.490 - 01:12:13.610

them by 100lb bag full of them, so I just loved roasted peanuts even today. Little did I know that it was good for ya because it has fiber. That’s so great. I guess I actually had one more

01:12:13.750 - 01:12:32.930

question just about your involvement in this community now and what you feel the greatest impact that you’ve made having been in all these different positions and having been in all these alliances. I guess the greatest impact is

01:12:35.370 - 01:12:53.000

my involvement and the visibility I’ve been able to give these different organizations because like I said, I’m known by a lot of people. Not only within the

01:12:53.030 - 01:13:13.240

Chinese community but the politicians. I know a lot of politicians here in the state, in the city, and in DC. Because of my involvement with the CHCA national organization, that gives us more

01:13:13.240 - 01:13:27.800

visibility because every year in may, we go to DC to visit all these politicians in a four-day span, to have them get us support certain

01:13:32.590 - 01:13:46.780

things. Even though I’m a republican, I have a lot of democrat friends. Al green and I have known each other for a long time, Sheila Jackson lee, jean wu, who’s a democrat, we’ve been friends a long time.

01:13:48.770 - 01:14:03.800

I don’t care what party they are, if we’re friends, we’re friends. But when it comes election time, if they’re Asian, I’m gonna vote for them. Regardless of the party they belong to because I

01:14:03.860 - 01:14:22.660

feel like we need more Asians, not just Chinese, but Asians in general in public office. Why do you say that? Because we’re not well represented enough and I think we can be

01:14:23.160 - 01:14:39.150

if we get more Asians in power. What do you feel that Asian Americans being in higher positions and office can really change the perceptions maybe within America, or maybe within Texas or

01:14:39.150 - 01:14:58.240

even just Houston alone? I think they can start with their local area, like Judy Chu, who’s a member of our CACA los Angeles lodge is in DC

01:14:59.210 - 01:15:17.180

and we have been trying to get a bill passed for congress to apologize for the way they treated the Chinese with the Chinese exclusion act.

01:15:19.470 - 01:15:28.140

All the other races, like the Japanese, they’ve been apologized to, they’ve been given money. We weren’t asking for money. The blacks have been apologized to.

01:15:28.480 - 01:15:43.980

Every other race has been apologized to, but when we started this project 5 or 6 years ago, every time they saw the word apology, they would shoot it down. And Judy Chu,

01:15:48.460 - 01:16:03.850

with the help of some other democrats and republicans also, rewrote it to take out the world “apology” and put in the word “regret” in there. And so, with that,

01:16:04.110 - 01:16:19.770

it just flew by both houses. But now, we’re going back to put the “apology” in there, which is only right. I mean we’re not asking for monetary damages, we just want them to show that they were

01:16:20.060 - 01:16:34.780

wrong to exclude the one race, the Chinese race, from immigrating. That’s why there’s not that many Chinese in America today. Even the Japanese, especially Vietnamese, there’s

01:16:36.190 - 01:16:49.500

many more Vietnamese than others. We’re gonna try again, if they kill us. I might not be alive when it happens, but we’re gonna keep trying.

01:16:51.950 - 01:17:08.550

But we did want to slap people in the face who voted the first time for us to say you guys got it wrong, you need to correct this. So I was one who voted

01:17:08.550 - 01:17:27.630

against going forward with the apology thing again. Because it was so hard to get “regret” and I don’t want to upset all the politicians that voted for us. You were saying earlier that you definitely considered yourself an exception to a lot of

01:17:28.020 - 01:17:44.750

Chinese within the community especially with your parents you were saying, who came in together. Do you feel right now at this time, which is the stronger attitude of Chinese I guess, do you think they tie together more and run to each other and cling to each other,

01:17:45.060 - 01:18:01.080

or we’re slowly starting to expand and be more vocal about what our past is and everything? I think the younger generation, my generation and younger, well my generation especially is

01:18:01.510 - 01:18:18.730

more vocal. Younger generations like yours, it has no meaning to you because it had never impacted you. From that perspective, I think in your mindset, you’re Americans whereas

01:18:21.760 - 01:18:40.110

we weren’t considered to be Americans or even welcome for that matter. How do you believe that Asian Americans in our generation then should be more actively.. do you think it’s important to learn more about your past, our

01:18:40.110 - 01:18:51.190

past and our history? And be able to address it? I think your generation need to learn where you come from, the predecessors that came

01:18:51.600 - 01:19:09.350

here and what they went through. If they understand that, then I would hope that they would make that information more available to other people and other races. On April 5th, we’re going

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to have a Texas historical markup at Baylen park for the Chinese Americans who came here especially Texas, and to honor some of the earlier Chinese who came here to get

01:19:31.840 - 01:19:45.250

it started, like Albert Gee, who’s daughter, Linda Woo, is head of the miss Chinatown pageant. She was one

01:19:45.250 - 01:20:02.810

of the first people I met because her mother was head of the youth club and we would meet at her house, but I think your generation really don’t have any appreciation

01:20:03.890 - 01:20:17.880

of what got them what they have today and what was given up to have what you have today. I agree. I think my parents definitely remind me a lot.

01:20:18.200 - 01:20:30.300

Do they? Every single time I’ll complain about going to piano, my mom will be like, “I took two busses just to learn this one thing. I would have to walk by foot, you are here so lucky.

01:20:30.500 - 01:20:43.590

For my birthday, I didn’t have a party, I got an egg” or something. I would get things like that all the time, so I definitely understand. Well actually I don’t believe in your mother’s philosophy.

01:20:45.010 - 01:21:01.130

I think that the offer should be there if you want to take advantage of it. If you’re forced to do something, chances are you’re going to hate it. Just like now, when you’re at

01:21:01.130 - 01:21:15.620

rice, if you’re pursuing a career your parents are pushing you towards, I tell you right now, get out and find something that you’ll be happy at. If you don’t,

01:21:15.700 - 01:21:29.270

you’re going to be miserable. Your parents will be happy, but you’ll be miserable, and that’s not what it should be. They should just give you the opportunity to pursue what you want to do and

01:21:29.920 - 01:21:44.960

what you feel you’ll be happy at doing. Definitely. I’m not knocking Rice because Rice is a tremendous school. It’s small, they give each student a lot of attention.

01:21:45.790 - 01:22:03.740

I have a friend in san Antonio, the granddaughter lives in Jackson, Mississippi, and I got to sponsor one of her granddaughters to the youth leadership conference

01:22:03.740 - 01:22:14.490

here two or three years ago. She came, fell in love with rice, and she’s here now. And her younger sister is getting ready to follow her.

01:22:17.460 - 01:22:31.540

Like I said, we have a lot of scholarship recipients who go to school here. So it’s a good school, I just left Harry Gee, he’s an immigration lawyer, very well known.

01:22:32.310 - 01:22:46.280

He’s a rice grad too. We’ve known each other forever. That’s good. Well I think that about wraps up the time that we have, we don’t want to keep you here for too long. No it’s okay.

01:22:46.340 - 01:22:56.820

I mean it’s only 5:30. Dinner’s coming you know! I thought I was going to be late and impact your schedule.

01:22:57.520 - 01:23:09.760

No, it was perfect. But thank you so much for your time and everything that you’ve brought for us. I think it definitely gave us a lot more visual images too while you were talking about your

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life and what you’ve gone through and what you’re doing, which is really great. Well if you need anything else, you have my contact information, so feel free.