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Today is December 15, 2020, my name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today we have J, whose pronoun is they/them, who will be sharing their perspectives

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with us on love and gender identity surrounding non-amatonormativity— a term coined by Professor Elizabeth Brake, who is a Professor of Philosophy at Rice University.

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This interview is for the archive’s “Modern Asian in love” podcast in the “Asian Diaspora in Houston” series. And we're very thankful for your time, J, for sharing with us about your perspectives. About amatonormativity, right?

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Yes, yes, that would be wonderful. To start since, um, this is the first time you've been with the archive, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm living in Seoul, but I was born in Ulsan, which is

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a Southern metropolitan city of South Korea. And I've been identifying myself as neutrois since 2016. And now I'm working as a interpreter and translator

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as a freelancer. That's all. That's wonderful. Thank you. And I guess just for the record, what ethnicity do you identify as?

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Ah, oh, Korean. No, no— I'm not an ethnic minority in my country. Okay, and what were some of the important family values in your upbringing?

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Um, my family. I have my parents, both mother and father and I have a younger brother. And what were some of the family values for example, like, were

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they kind of emphasize on say, being honest, being sincere in your connection with people? Like what were some of the more important values do they try to instill you with in your upbringing?

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They- they were really emphasized on loyalty to families, for example, you should respect your elder, the elderly, in your relatives and family and also some kind

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of strong bond between siblings. Those two are... Yeah, so very emphasized. So when I was in childhood and adolescence.

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Thank you, and what have been the perception or expectation of gender roles in your family in your upbringing? Even though I identify as neutrois, my outward appearance is much looks like,

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just- just a male person. So they always put me, our emphasis as a first son

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person, which... I need to support when- whenever they retire their job, but which is quite against my- my creed.

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Because I think after 20, I- I'm independent. So I think it's okay, not to support each other.

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Like from I- I'm, I'm back for my parents, or my parents are back for me. But for them it is quite crucial point to maintain as a

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family. So it's kind of a very, very deep reason why I, I don't like to be with— I don't like to live with them.

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So maybe this is kind of Korean thing, I think. I don't know. I'm sure probably with the firstborn, it's very different. And there's probably some expectations of responsibilities

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such as carrying on the family blood and the family name. Is that something that might have been— something in your family? Or has it impacted your personal relationship in any way? For me, I, I don't care, whoever

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I met as a partner. But for them, it should be someone who is, o r who was born to be female and who is still identified

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herself as a woman. So, for them, they are... for them, this heterosexual relationship is crucial; but for me is, is, is...

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It doesn't matter. So many thing, many, many things such as relationship and love and partnership, they- they are still complete with

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me. Thank you for sharing, and moving on to the actual part of the interview, can you share with us— what do you think of the word "love"? As I wrote in my email, I don't

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put a great emphasis on love, because for me, that word doesn't mean specifically the romantic theme. But it can be useful.

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It can, it can be usable to describe any relationship that I put a great emotional effort on them such as a family member, or a person I know, for a very long time, and personal

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partner. So for me, there is no differences on emphasis, for partner and brother and other family members. Just I can call any of these

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relationships are based on love, but maybe the degree of love will be different. But I can say just, but all of them are love. Thank you. And next I guess as this podcast is about love,

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relationship, and specifically, amatonormativity. Can you share with us some of your understanding about amatonormativity? And what kind of lifestyle, what kind of personal relationship do you expect in a non-amatonormative

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life? You mean non-amatonormative life? Yes. In comparison with those— for example, romantic relationships.

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Ah, for example, um, I I've been- I've been with my current partner, for about a year now. And- and during this period, I—

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we didn't- we didn't... Let me see... partnership on relations, such as, we have to make intercourse every day or every week.

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So other Korean, their sexual partnership, this is kind of very basis or keeping their relationship; but for us, is nothing. So by

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in the meantime, they, my partner and me were first identify as asexual. So sexual intercourse doesn't matter for us; don't

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matter for us. But for others, this is very crus- crucial. So. And also, we don't— we, we don't... we do support for

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emotional support; but we don't- we don't think we have to support each other for financial support. Yeah, something, like something that could be important in heterosexual relationships, amato—

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non-amatonormative relations are not- not a big thing for my relationship. Thank you for sharing.

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And next, I was just wondering, how do you connect with people? Like, um, how- what type of style? Yeah. This is the COVID-19

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days. So I reduce meeting too many people about maybe... For example, in the last year, I- I'd love to meet a lot of people; for example,

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I may at least twice or three times to go out and hang out with my friends for dinner, or beer time. And they were...

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and I didn't care whether they are male or female. So those for me, meeting a new person is the kind of thing that I can understand them each other, so.

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But these days, I don't really communicate with many people, except my partner, and some of my long, long standing friends.

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Thank you for sharing. Um next I'm wondering what kind of experiences or what— how, what kind of people, or just in general, what are the journey in that you took in coming towards identify yourself as neutrois?

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I've been conflicted to use my body image and my body type. And because after the secondary sexual characteristic

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on my body, I, I hate it. Why should I have this kind of thing in my body? And sometimes I, I search it for surgery, and, um; but there were,

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there were, there were nothing that 100% identify with my ideal body type. So I still have some kind of body dysphoria and gender dysphoria with my

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body. But during maybe, for me it was it took two, three or four years to identify as neutrois, because neutrois is kind of brand new language

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in Korea. So, even though I had constantly, I had been, I had, I had, I had a lot of research on, for example, going to library

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or meeting some within some social minority organization; but even they were working for social- social minority, and they didn't

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know the word— what is neutrois? But they just suggest me as a transgender, who are conflict with themselves as gender dysphoria. But I wasn't- I

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wasn't... I- I did, I couldn't feel fulfilled about that term. So, I studied a lot and look for what should be, and which word should be, should describe me more and more.

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And finally, I could find the term neutrois. So, at that time, I know I could see other, what other neutrois are having problem; and I saw many

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some articles and some YouTube videos. So from that time, I could identify myself as neutrois, even thought this

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can't be legal gender in my country. That's wonderful to hear. And what are some of the challenges in this process, if you wouldn't mind sharing? Were your family

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supportive? Of course there were no family support. Because family, my- my family theme is quite deeply connected to conservative, Chri- Chris- Christian Christianity,

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personality. So they don't understand why- why there are transgender exist. So for them transgender is for already those went to the surgery. But I, someday I

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indirectly came out is explaining what is transgender in these days meaning, but they didn't understand and they also had made some kind of hate speech on it.

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So I determined not to, not to disclose what I'm really thinking of myself. And my, my younger brother is, has been

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serving for his mandatory military service, though he's also... even though he's younger than me, but he's much conservative on this theme. So there were no family support.

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So for them, I'm just a great first son; but for me, I don't think in that home anymore. Yeah, that's all. Thank you for sharing.

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That must be pretty difficult for— I felt like— for anyone. I'm wondering, besides family and your partner, what are some of the relationships either it's friendship, or, like community

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that supports you, and or mentors you? Like, given like your studies with non-amatonormativity?

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And yeah, throughout your journey, I guess, if there's someone significant, a mentor, a friend, that has been important to you? As I briefly mentioned about my

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organization “Trans LiberationFront”, I was at the first- first time, some of members in that organization, were kind of Facebook friends with me.

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And I could, I could have some opportunities to meet them in person. And so whenever I kind of have had a problem with my family, or

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mostly intrinsically, I had problems with them, but I couldn't disclose it to my family members. So I kind of, I had some kind of non-official counseling with them.

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So it was quite helpful to find me as neutrois, to- to, for this journey. As though and I wonder, I wonder whether I could be one of working member

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with them. And they said, "If you really think of yourself as neutrois and if you are really eager to contribute some single point to improve social minority situation in Korea, so

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you can be one of us." So for me, they are kind of crucial and significant person, people, I guess. Or for some, some partner and my, including my current partner, they are

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helping me in many ways, especially emotionally, but I guess they are one of the important person. Yeah, that's all. Thank you for sharing.

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I'm wondering if your partner, does they— do they also identify as neutrois? They don't. They identify as gender fluid.

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Thank you. And I'm also curious to see your opinion on the kind of more diversity in terms of gender and identity, what are some of the social the societies, or the socio economical changes— for example, internet

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and like social media and the pop culture has impacted on the diversity of— and the kind of studies in gender, would you think in

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your country has been like the more prominent influence? Hmm. There are some people who identify as lesbian or gay person in- in mainstream may be celebrity.

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But they- they are not treated as equal person as other members in their celebrities. So in

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surface they- they are treated as same people; but is in a legal situation, or in a social welfare situation, they are not treated as equal.

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So and also, our Korea mainstream culture, does- doesn't really- doesn't really-

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doesn't really support the LGBT things. And maybe there are some, some, some TV program or grammar or films can provide some implications,

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which can be, which the words can be interpreted as maybe it tells of a homosexual or it tells about transgender theme. But they still, they

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are not mainstream in my country. So if you want to testify, for me to be very great deal of time to identify myself, what is myself?

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What can I describe in specific term? So. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe I was looking for.

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Maybe, I was looking for some kind of hint about transgender examples, or idol, model; or what can I be, but which are kind of against Korean mainstream culture?

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I don't know if this is a good answer. But I guess they're, I don't know. So. Thank you. Yeah, those are so interesting, as well.

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And I guess, my earlier intention was to ask about how, for example, the social media where and everyone poses their photos. And there's a kind of, a projection of self-image

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onto the social medias representation of how one should appear. You also discuss briefly earlier that you went through plastic— is it, was a plastic surgery— to kind of become more in line with the the appearance you, you

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were aiming for. Like, did the kind of social media and like the pop culture...? You can see... do you know mannequin right in, in, in clothes attire?

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Like whenever you visit any shopping model for clothing, you can see a plastic thing are wearing the suits or other sweaters or mannequin...? Yeah, the mannequin?

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Mannequin doesn't, doesn't have any specific characteristics as a male or female. For me, that kind of imagery is

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ideal form of body type. But yeah, I was looking for any plastic surgery examples that, who have reached, have gone through all the removal of

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body things. But I couldn't find any significant ones. So I- I- I couldn't take anything

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about that. Even though I feel still, I feel sometimes discomfort of my body. But what can I do? Thank you for sharing

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that. And I guess the next question relates to how we met through Professor Elizabeth Brake, like what was the first time you came across her theory and her book "Minimizing Marriage"?

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Hmm. When- whenever I met someone before I met this current partner, whenever I met some girlfriends or other friends, I was wondering why people are

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always think about romantic love and to support each other so, so faithfully, you know, in a way that I can, I couldn't understand.

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So I started to search for the theme of Love is not a theme, or many, many interpersonal relationship.

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And at that time I could find Elizabeth, Elizabeth's website, which is telling about amatonormativity. So I sent email that could I get a permission

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of that page to be interpreted in Korean. So I could, I- I got permission from her. So that was the first time I knew

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about that term. And I could introduce these terms to other Korean people. That was my first time. And you also mentioned marriage is not something you aim for, but the

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law and social benefits always treat people as a unit of family as marriage; and single people— at least in here America, I'm not sure about Korea— are like laws and society favors people who are married.

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Like what do you think about that? And... All the– all the laws are based on, based, all the laws, or all the laws exist to

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support four-member family in my country. So for example, if you don't have, if you don't get married or if you don't have any legal partner, you will not be supported as other family member who already-

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already consist of four member like father, mother, son and daughter. So we're to be, to be treated as equally as other

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family, family size, family. I guess the Korean legal, Korean law thinks family means, you should- you should get married with proper

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partner; but it should be a heterosexual based on the relationship. But for me this is the kind of micro aggression for social minority.

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So and also, as- as you can imagine legal and also social welfare system, also all the basic unit for each social-

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social welfare system are for the form of four member, or at least you have children. Though you should rather be, it would be okay, whether that children is adopted or raised

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as your- your offspring. But if you don't have any children, if you are not married, you will, you're not really welcomed in Korea, I think, even though it

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doesn't matter. And they thought they don't. I guess they just they don't care about the other kind of family type.

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So that's why I'm still working for the “Trans Liberation Front” organization and also try to enlighten other friends who are not really

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familiar with these systems. And there's no, still there's no law called discrimination law in crime in my country. So maybe it should be very

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different from America or England, I guess. So when I- when I saw the same sex marriage law was effective in

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Taiwan, I thought, when would we have such a thing in my country? That's all. Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing. Definitely something that we all strive for.

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And, and I saw that you have a personal blog, speaking of trying to enlighten people about the differences and diversity of gender identities. Like, can you share with us your intention with starting this blog?

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And I saw that you also had some hashtags on feminism, like, can you also spoke— speak a little bit about that? Ah, first, when I start my blog, it doesn't, I didn't, I didn't

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have any intention on enlightening people at first time. First I started it as collecting some music that I liked. But as time went by I, I,

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I, I got into feminism and a mother's social issues. So and also I had some kind of little, little, but not all, maybe just 100, at least 100 person with

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100 people and who visit my website. So I thought about this maybe will be kind of source, then I can impact people. So those I guess it was from

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2015 or 16. I guess It was my first time to use my blog as social and political issues on feminism and social minority issues, and

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also veganism, something like that. So it's kind of just change of my thought. I wasn't intended to, I didn't intend to make it from the start, but is,

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is now is going on. That's all. Definitely. Yeah. And you also mentioned you work for the “Trans Liberation Front” as a managing member, trans

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rights activists. Do you see some of the work you've done in helping people who are kind of, in that stage of their struggling to find their identity?

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Would you mind sharing some of the stories? In Korea, there is no specific- specific legal... Not legal, sorry. There are specific law to officially

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who wants to... consider who wants to change about their legal gender from male, men to woman, women to men. So even though

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there are some, there's some legal... I don't know what's the right description of that. Ah some kind of legal regulation in minor,

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minor law house... I think this is not the proper word. But I guess maybe in a city or in a

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province, you could ask for, to- to change your gender, but there are so many things that the legal organization to demand, what kind of thing that can

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prove you are still, you have problems with your gender dysphoria. But there is no official regulation in constitutional,

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but in institutional level, or just below that level. So, we are focusing on making that specific law called Transgender special law.

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So, we- we- we sent them all legal letter last year. And also we got- we got some of...

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So, we kept collecting petitions from other civil members citizens. So, they we got about

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more than 3000 people from for eight months, I guess. It goes went through both online and offline. So we- we

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occasionally take— took part in pure festival in Seoul and other city such as Gwangju, Busan, Daegu, which are kind of metropolitan in my country.

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And time to time we also support other social NGOs, which are focused on feminism or female issues, female

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right issues. So these are because we think all kinds of discrimination are deeply related to each other. Not all separate.

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Like, for example, if the transgender rights going up, the female rights are going down, we don't think in this way, though, we think those kinds of right, human rights are related to

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each other. So, we, time to time if we can offer supporting them, we are trying to find a way. For example, to find, to make some kind of demonstration on

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some, some bad company, or may be demonstration, or parade in a specific area, which is, which are historically related

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to transgender or transgender people, or something else. That's all. Thanks, thank you for sharing. And next, if you wouldn't mind sharing, could you tell us how you met your partner?

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And if in terms of like, comparing the relationship with your partner among your other relationships in your life, for example, friendships, or family like, is there a priority? Or how do you kind of value the relationships

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between the people in your lives? Hmm, oh, I met my current partner, among veganism community, in my country.

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And she— they, and we already identified ourselves as a vegan, for a long time. So, at first that was our first encounter in thought, or so and when

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we could meet, when we had some time to talk about those idea, it could also find about the good, good connection

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on issues like feminism or transgender issues, though. And also, maybe it was third or fourth time, I, we came out each other what we are really thinking about ourselves.

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So and also, this relationship is my first time to reveal all my identities. So before this, this relationship,

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I could, I could have say, I'm kind of vegan, or I'm kind of transgender. But there are, there were not many people who could understand these kinds of identities or social values.

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So I guess there are some some friends who are not transgender, and who are not vegan and who could understand me, but this person who is— I will say,

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this person knows, maybe more than what other people I have met. Yeah, that's it. Thank you. Um, and then I'm just wondering, how do you prioritize

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the relationship with your partner? And like, in terms of, I guess, speaking of a non-amatonormative lifestyle,

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like romantic relationships, they're kind of considered in equal or in a way, kind of can be interchangeable with other relationships, or that's my kind of understanding, if you would correct me.

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How, what is the priority of you, of your relationship with your partner in terms of other relationships? Ah, mmm hmm. Maybe they- they- they could

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understand my, my words because they, they also said they don't put a great emphasis on love in terms of non-amatonorm...

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amato- amato and amatonormativity. These, these words is not use that, not that. Okay, never mind.

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Anything, but, um, maybe they are some, some difference, like I, I can, I, I'd love to meet my partner more than others. But it doesn't mean that this is a

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romantic, and I care them more than others. But for me, I think I, I just put some kind of

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little difference between friends and my partner and my family. Just I am living with my partner. So this is why I could talk more than other people. But this doesn't mean I don't

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care about others. I think for me, like, I could, for example, if I have to visit someone in other city, I could-

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I could- I could believe anyone to come to my, my room, to keep, stay; regardless my partner and my brother and my family,

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but because my family are, by my, especially my parents don't know, don't know, whether I consider myself as transgender and there are some books and other items in my

00:47:40.100 - 00:47:53.920

room about that. So I couldn't make, I couldn't make it secret before I could visit, before I could ask them to fill in my space.

00:47:53.980 - 00:48:08.500

But I just don't. I don't know. Just I don't understand why other people are really caring about only their loved one. For example, girlfriend or

00:48:08.570 - 00:48:27.000

boyfriend. And they're... and sometimes they- they, ah, yeah, my, for example, my ex-girlfriend, she asked me to cut

00:48:27.040 - 00:48:42.780

off all the relationship except from her when I was, when I had relationship with her. And I deeply, I couldn't understand about that kind of thing.

00:48:42.780 - 00:49:01.980

So I just I told, I told her, "For me, you and my other friends are equal." And then, and she said, "She should be the superior to other people other personal relationship with my with

00:49:01.980 - 00:49:20.320

me." But I couldn't make it fully understand who understand myself about her my amatonormativity thought, so. Maybe it was

00:49:20.830 - 00:49:38.350

because during the, during first 20, 23... 22, it was quite a long time ago. But I could, I guess I could understand

00:49:38.430 - 00:49:53.090

about the idea of amatonormativity, but I just I didn't know the word I guess. But now I, me and my partner doesn't care really about.

00:49:53.590 - 00:50:09.600

We don't really have a great difference on equity or love in any kind of relationships. I guess. That's all. That's really interesting to hear.

00:50:09.600 - 00:50:26.960

And so that, that kind of, was it— became part of the journey in understanding and trying to learn more about your preference in gender identity? I guess yes, yes, yes.

00:50:27.600 - 00:50:43.920

Because I don't even though I feel some kind of, kind of, I would love to have sexual intercourse with anyone.

00:50:44.190 - 00:51:04.820

But this doesn't mean that I, I'm not really, sometimes I can be attracted to them; but this is about my sexual orientation I am looking to, but it doesn't mean that I'm not, I'm not authentic or I'm not attracted.

00:51:07.080 - 00:51:26.880

So. Yeah, I think is kind of thought, might influence me about my identity. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Um, I guess that's all my questions.

00:51:26.880 - 00:51:42.080

Do you have anything you would like to add that we didn't cover? Any final words? I think, I, I, I told you a lot

00:51:42.080 - 00:51:56.870

about myself for last words. So maybe you could give me another question? Oh, yeah, sure, sure. Um, so, um, I think we talked briefly about starting feminism, like,

00:51:57.800 - 00:52:13.370

so that you have a diverse range, and one very well in depth. About queer feminism, postmodern feminism, trans-feminist, intersectional feminism, radical feminism, equal feminism and ethics, and

00:52:13.790 - 00:52:31.230

you're also advocating sex workers rights and animal rights. So all these different like theories, like what was the process in kind of realizing and coming together with all these layers, about your identity and

00:52:32.060 - 00:52:52.880

in discovering other identities, like among the human species, I guess? Because I think one of my aspects is to be curious of, curious about things that I

00:52:53.000 - 00:53:11.270

don't know. So first, like, of I think it can be generalized to all the other social idea that I have been encountered.

00:53:11.700 - 00:53:24.920

Feminism, veganism, or trans rights or other, maybe also refugee issues. So... and sexual issues. So, I just, I,

00:53:27.460 - 00:53:44.450

whenever I could find whenever I can find some kind of social discrimination on my country or other country, I just wonder why this is happening. And I just started to I just started to research and

00:53:45.740 - 00:54:15.140

find someone who could, who could make me figure out what's going on. And if I, if I, if I feel bored, to if I've been more curious about them, I just wanna I bought some books and

00:54:16.510 - 00:54:32.900

other articles to just get to know 100% to understand myself. So that's why now so it's been a long time to hear our story

00:54:32.900 - 00:54:50.750

so many social issues. I guess this from my 24th... there was no- no- no big change in my life, like someone, you,

00:54:50.940 - 00:55:09.020

someone who are telling me that you should know this kind of thing. Just I wanting to find those things. So yeah, I think that is my answer for your

00:55:09.080 - 00:55:25.120

question, why I started, or why I care about them. Just I, just I found it. Yes, that would be my answer. No, Thank you. Um, I always find like these different

00:55:27.230 - 00:55:42.020

perspectives of feminism really fascinating. And I'm really, yeah, amazed that you've looked so much in depth of this. I guess, for my last question, like, what do you think of the

00:55:42.020 - 00:55:59.780

mass media and the mainstream TV or movie representation of LGBTQIA+. And like, would there be a new future, in your view about a, like

00:55:59.800 - 00:56:18.400

non-amatonormative view of, kind of the relationship between human beings? And like aromantic and asexual, like worldview? Like, would you consider that to be in your future possibility?

00:56:21.070 - 00:56:35.010

Oh, maybe if I happen to leave until 100 years. Maybe it could be it could happen.

00:56:35.050 - 00:56:49.800

But I think this that those thing that you mentioned, all your, I think those things couldn't happen soon. Considering my country's, country's

00:56:50.010 - 00:57:12.170

condition. And I, sometimes I want to describe my country as a romance-centric country, because all the relationships in media are

00:57:13.000 - 00:57:29.130

considered as love or especially hetero romantic or heterosexual based on. But I think there can be some words, that could

00:57:29.960 - 00:57:49.540

give us an implication about aromanticism or asexual or other social minority issues. But in still the mainstream thing, some of aromanticism just say,

00:57:49.580 - 00:58:06.650

this is to male person's friendship. But for me, that's somehow different. But also, my other members of my group says, that shouldn't be just a normal

00:58:08.070 - 00:58:33.460

description as a friendship, but there could be aromantic; they could implicate indicate about aromanticism or others. Yeah, it's still going on about is kind of eraser for other values.

00:58:34.620 - 00:58:52.140

So yeah, I think it may, it may, I could see some, some words are representing about aromanticism or amatonormativity in the

00:58:52.240 - 00:59:11.280

future, but it wouldn't be. It wasn't appear soon in, I guess, another 10 years. That's all. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I definitely remember growing up watching a lot of

00:59:12.150 - 00:59:25.920

Korean soap opera, that are very romantic. And that, I guess, that mainstream culture is definitely very much against the asexual and aromantic gender identity.

00:59:28.940 - 00:59:44.020

I guess, for the record of the— or put in more context for people who might be listening in the future. What age or what range of age, if you're comfortable to disclose, are you?

00:59:47.680 - 01:00:05.490

You mean my age now, or? Yeah, your age now. Or just a range is fine, too, if you're comfortable with that. Around 30. Thank you. Yeah, I guess if-

01:00:06.860 - 01:00:24.110

if you don't have any other final words, and that's the... Yeah, that concludes the interview today. And I just want to thank you so much for spending time to go through all these perspectives and stories and helping us find out more about, and, like

01:00:24.160 - 01:00:37.030

brainstorm more about how a future with a more diverse and more studied identity in terms of our human condition can be.

01:00:37.550 - 01:00:52.660

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, because I, as I told you, I, I couldn't imagine this kind of interview could happen because I just look for what is amatonormativity.

01:00:53.190 - 01:01:08.230

And I could get, I could finally, I could get the email address from Elizabeth. And also I could, I could, I think I should, I should say thank you to her as well.

01:01:08.340 - 01:01:27.110

Because I, even I, I have sometimes I have some kind of newspaper or other interviews that were kind of briefly, I could briefly mention

01:01:27.670 - 01:01:43.210

about transgender or veganism like over 5 minutes or 10 minutes. But this is kind of one hour interview. So from I'm, I can

01:01:43.210 - 01:01:58.350

say, I'm more thankful about to be given this opportunity to talking, talking about amatonormativity and other my journey to my

01:01:58.350 - 01:02:15.750

relationship and gender. Yeah, that this just, this is amazing as I can say. Thank you for again, thank you again, to have me, this kind of

01:02:18.140 - 01:02:21.270

have me join this opportunity and this project.