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Um this is um we're from Rice University with the Houston Asian American archive project and we're here today with Miss Hannah Choo. Um Would you like to start off with a little bit about your childhood? Maybe where you grew up? See, I was actually born in

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China. Um went to uh Alberta Canada or Wainwright. Really first, probably early fifties uh came into Houston in 61 and been here ever since uh family operated a little cafe in Canada, came to Houston when my father died and, you know, following old Chinese traditions, mother

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would like to be at the son and the brother and they all started businesses and he's, I mean, a grocery store business and that's where I kind of grew up. What kind of professions were your parents in? Uh Basically, my mother's probably would, I would say

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wasn't educated. Uh They had a cafe. My father did the same thing. I mean, my recollection or at least I was told that, you know, he'd go to Canada, start a business and then save money and go home again. And that's kind of way. I think

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our family view is kind of, there's three of us and we're so far uh spaced apart. My brother was 20 years older than I was. My sister was 11 years older. So we were like three separate family citizens. So did you um have to go to

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Taiwan first before you came to, I really don't know. I just remembered from China, we went to Hong Kong and then you went to Canada and since my father was a Canadian citizen, I was actually given citizenship at the time I was, I was born in

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a sense, you know, like I had the certificate. Uh we ended up in Canada because I think immigration policies were a lot more liberal back in the fifties. And, you know, actually, do you remember why they chose to move to Canada? Because of the immigration policies?

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Probably, and my father had apparently had been there in his earlier years and had businesses and you know, what did you bring with you to Canada? Do you remember? I wouldn't have a clue. It was like a part of your life that you don't know that

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really, you know, um I know we had a cafe apparently with somebody then after a few years, you know, I think my father decided or months whatever it was, he opened up his own cafe because apparently my mother and the other partner's wife didn't get along,

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you know, as traditional as partnerships go. And uh you coming, I learned to be a waitress at the age of nine. Did you learn that in Canada? Because you had to help with the family? Yeah, because everybody was ill. And so, you know, and my mother

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was cooking, uh, my sister was sick. My father was sick so I learned to be a waitress at night. I thought it was pretty good. By the time I quit doing it. How long did you help out the family? The restaurant probably. I was till about

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13. That's when I moved to Houston. And then I helped out in, uh, my brother's grocery store, you know, and as traditional Chinese families did there, but he worked in the stores or whatever. Do you remember how much you earned first at the, and then I

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don't, I didn't make any money. I think I got some tips and I was shocked that I was getting tips, you know, and I don't know whether they're just being nice because I was, you have to realize I lived in a really small farming community. Yeah.

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Population might have been 200 it's still 200 because I went back there a few years ago. It's just, uh, everybody live down on the farm. So we were the only place in town like they had the cafe. It was the soda shop. It was everything, it

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was where people would come. Uh congregate. So that was all it was. And I think the only time I got tips was when strangers came to the halfway because, you know, the local folks just didn't tip and they didn't make those kind of dollars, you know.

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So, it was kind of fun. And the grocery store, you worked in the family grocery store. So you really didn't get paid, you know. Were your brothers? Good to you though? He was ok. Yeah. And my brother, because he was 20 years older, his, he had

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a daughter was probably close to my age. So I think I'm only nine months older than she was. And so in a sense, it probably was a little competition. I probably got treated a little bit nicer because I was his sister, you know, and my mother

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would probably fuss at something. So I'm just assuming that's how it worked. And did you go to school in Canada? Uh I went to there until about the seventh grade, started eighth grade here. Um, did all my undergraduate law school everything here. So, did you have

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any trouble learning English at all? Because you were really young, right? Ok. Um, in Canada there wasn't any like Asian families, period. Uh Our deal in the restaurant in the cafe was my mother didn't speak English. So the deal was once I could hit the kitchen

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knew English. So it's, it forced me to keep a little village style that Jo's mother didn't speak. And I was pretty good at, until probably when I quit practicing law because I didn't have any clients and so I can't even do village style. I can't do

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anything anymore because I'm out of practice. I don't know. And that's about the extent of my Chinese I can't read and I can't write. So she never made you go to any like formal Chinese school or here or in Houston. But I got here, I don't

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think there was too much and I, I never went to it. I think probably even at that age you did, you can see the value of it now and for kids growing up, but back in those days when you're that age, just like, even if it

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was, you know, it wasn't a big deal, you know, but now I think you get older, you can see the value of all that because it is dying out and it's kind of sad. May I ask what dialect your family spoke? Probably twice? Not? Ok. Um

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What specific reasons uh were there that you moved from Canada to Houston? Well, my, my father had died, uh I had an uncle in Houston. So my mother thought that my brother should go into business with my uncle here and that's how we end up in

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Houston. Probably the other part is my brother actually didn't live in Canada. He lived in California. He was like the paper center of my uncle at that time because my brother was too old to go into the immigration policies in Canada. So, he ended up going

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to California as my uncle's son. So he paid for. Oh, so when, so did you all, both of you guys, your family and from Canada moved to Houston the same time he moved here from California. Yeah, it was just my mother and my, uh, cell, um,

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my sister was already married so she lived in Calgary and she still lives there now. Oh, so your sister is not here at all? OK. Where did you go from? The live in Houston? Where did I live on the east end? Uh off of uh Broadway?

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I went to uh middle school and Milby High School. So in that neighborhood and then shortly I think we're there maybe a year or two and then we ended up in the north side uh inside the loop. And so was there a lot of Asian Americans

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in the community? The what was probably the most uh gathering of Asian American if you think of the kids are we all went to Chinese Baptist church at the time uh which was used to be on Hamilton and uh Lamar Street, which is, you know, near

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the George R Brown area. And that's how we met all the uh Chinese kids in the community, either you went to church or you didn't back in those days. And we all sang in the church choir. I'm not saying we are great. We just made joyous

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noise is how I like to say it. So that's, and, and it was kind of interesting because I went to a memorial service last weekend and it's a lot of those kids that we all went to church with, you know, we saw each other, some of

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them I probably haven't seen in 40 years and some were like, you know, so it was, it was kind of nice. So, is that through the church? You keep in touch too? No, we just kind of keep in touch. We have an informal kind of network

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but, but that's our, our gathering place back in the sixties and that's how we all met and we kind of kept track in that sense. Did you have to have somebody introducing, introduce you into the church at the beginning? No, I think they, we just, uh

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I think there were some people in church that might have been looking for church choir members or they're looking for other choir directors looking people, you know, at our age. Well, we're teenagers and so we all, that's how we kept in touch and that's how it

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was kind of good times. Um May I ask what you did for recreation other than going to like church on Sundays? What you did for recreation back in those days? The probably the movies and that sort of thing. Just a typical what a teenager does. He

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said we probably didn't have cell phones, we probably didn't have as many cars. Um What else do we? Just the typical stuff? Ok. Anything different? Probably different than what you did as a teenager. There probably weren't as many organizations and extracurricular activities that you had when

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you were in high school. There was a lot less, a lot of us in a sense because they worked in family businesses. So you didn't participate as much as you do now. So, in high school you said you met a lot of Chinese people during church?

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But were there a lot of Asian or Chinese people in your high school? Maybe six? Maybe there wasn't a whole lot. Uh Our graduating class was well over 600 in my graduating class we maybe had six or less. Um So did you usually just hang out

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with those people or were you all in different kind of cliques? I think we all do different things. There's a couple of them because we met for church and that we ended up at the same high school. We kind of hung together a little bit one

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person. Um then the others, we, because they live in the neighborhood. I had the car. I was the one that had the car. I think I was 16 or 17. And um I would give everybody, well, I would drop the kids off at home. I would

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charge them 10 cents the same way it cost to ride the bus. So it paid for gas and, you know, you probably interviewed Gordon Gordon Kan was, was in my graduating class and, uh, his sister and there were a couple of his friends and a couple

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other, um, Chinese kids that live near the school. And so they, we all rode together to make kind of small business out of that. They got a ride to their doorstep and they didn't have to worry about the raid and they paid for my gas. Were

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you all living in kind of the same area or did you have to go separate? Uh, we probably went separate but kind of in the same section of town. I mean, it's not that close and by that time I was probably live on the north side

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of town. So, um, I didn't want to change schools so I continued to go to Wilby. And so that's the reason I hit the car. Ok. So, because there are so few Asians in your class. Do you feel like you experience experience any prejudice or any

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type of conflict with the other kids? Probably during that time period? No, I think those are gentler and kinder times than they are today. And, um, what kind of typical line do the Asian parents and engage in? What kind of work during that time period? I

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think most of the kids that, especially, that were in the choir that we hung with, they all grocery stores or, or, or a cafe or something like that. You didn't have a whole lot of professional, uh, parents in those, I mean, at least the people that

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I knew or during that time period there weren't a whole lot and when you got there were, were you, um, did you want a separate house? Because I heard a lot of people that own grocery stores actually lived upstairs from their grocery stores. We had a

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separate house. I actually lived with my brother and his family and, you know, like they, um, actually I lived in their garage apartment with my mother and, you know, his family, you know, but we actually lived together and that sounds so moving. So you worked in

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the grocery store when you were nine and then it kind of stopped when you were in your teens. But I worked in the restaurant till I got about early teens and I worked in the grocery store probably till I was, I finished high school. Ok. Could

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you tell us about some just general duties you did there, grocery store, stack groceries, you know, uh, act as cashier. You just did whatever you did in a little neighborhood grocery store, you swept, you cook out the trash or just everything? Were, were the major clients?

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What type of client? Most of those are now, probably African Americans. So, is there any ethnic food or is it just tailored towards the general population? Well, probably general population, except there are a few items that you would probably find in a local grocery store, you

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know, um, small owned it, like, like Chitlins and, you know, you'd get the, some of a few items like that, but a lot of it is like regular, nothing of the ordinary. So if a lot of the other, um, families also opened grocery churches, y'all experience

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any type of competition or no, because I think at those times because, well, they weren't that close. The grocery stores are, you know, it's not like you have one, every block for every neighborhood. It wasn't like that. So, was that the only job you had during

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high school? Just working in your family store or did you have any basically? So, I guess in high school, did you know what you were gonna do later on in high school? I thought I was going to be a teacher. That's about it. You know, I

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think it, I think you also have to realize during that time period, what professions women were into in those days, you know. Um, I think I thought I would be a teacher at one time in my life. I thought I wanted to be like a, a

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secretary because that's what most women did in those days. Uh I think nursing was the other professions. And so I thought I'd be a teacher but that didn't last very long. I know. Did you have any mentors or any people you can still keep in contact

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with that helped you kind of. So, Yeah. The reason I was laughing about college because I thought when I went to college I was going to go into business. Didn't get close, didn't like it first semester. So I have a degree in anthropology. It, I think

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it was my way of trying to explore all the possibilities. What was out there. So, it was cultural anthropology that I could agree in. So I just want to learn as much as I could. So, I guess it was like, towards the very end was ready

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to graduate. I decided, well, I guess I better do something. I ended up going to law school. Uh, during that college I worked in a law office as a gopher and as a secretary and so forth. And that's how I ended up going to law school.

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So, which college did you go to? I went to University of Houston Central Campus. Was it? Um, I don't even know, but was the application process? Like, was there a lot of people trying to apply? Was there a lot of competition? I don't think so. Uh,

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I just vaguely remembered I applied and, you know, I got into school and then it was the only place I was gonna go to anyway. So it's not like I applied at a lot of colleges or anything like that. Uh, I was an ok student. It

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was not like, you know, top, top of the class or anything like that. So, you know, um, that's about it that you, and in those times, most of us, uh, I think of the kids as the ones that we are, uh, hanging with is that we

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ended up at U of H because it's a school in, uh, very few, uh, women or the girls actually got to go out of town to go to college. A few of them who had a progressive parent. Yes. But the majority of us ended up at

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the neighborhood. Um which is you, at least for the girls. So, was it, um, did a lot of people from your high school class go to college? You know, we did a reunion several years ago in there weren't that many and, you know, um, probably less

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than a third. I'm guessing. I really don't know. A lot of them probably in the, all the Vietnam Wars during that time period. So some never went beyond that. So we don't know what happened to them. So it's so it was a pretty rare thing for

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you to go to college. I don't think so. I think uh it was kind of expected. You went, I don't know, it just depends on who you were with at the time. I think that if you were the Chinese kids, you ended up going to college.

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If you were not with the Chinese kids, it didn't necessarily mean they went to college. Uh A few of them that went to college. I still see me, you know, visit. Uh, that's probably what a reunion will do occasionally if you reconnect, it's like making new

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friends all over. And the starting point is high school, even though we never knew each other in high school. So that's been kind of one of the beauties of it. So you look forward to. So was, uh, um, what did the parents expect you to go

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to college or was there any nudge towards that direction? There was no nudge. Um, because like I said, my mother didn't speak English. Uh, my sister was already married, my brother was married with family and father was deceased. And, uh, I think the only reason and

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our counselors didn't even encourage you to college because I went to Milby and Milby is like on the east end, it's very blue collar. Um, I just happened to go to college because some of the people that I hung around in high school, they were talking

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about college and this and this and all the other stuff. Well, I guess I better apply too. So I, that's how it happened. Was that the only school you applied to? So, because it was close. Yeah. So, and I mean, I don't think I had any

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great ambitions of what I was gonna be doing other than I'm kind of those people that doesn't do really long term planning, but I just kind of do it as it comes along. It works out it kind of. Yeah, it does. So, was there any, I

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don't know, family expectations for you or are you gonna be this? You're gonna be that? No, no, no. So, you just have to find a way for yourself. May I ask what kind of organizations you were involved with in college? In college? I wasn't involved in

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much of anything. Uh, if you went to UVH, it's basically commuter. You went to classes and you went home college. I almost did nothing. Organization wise. I think I was working in that law office and then going to school. How did you find the job in

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the law office? Um, a friend of mine was working there and we, and I think we must have met somewhere and, uh, so she was going on vacation, she recommended. So I went and hung out and then I just stayed there as a gopher because I

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just wanted to learn and then eventually I ended up being a secretary there and, you know, got paid for it. And, um, then ended up in the, so did you devote a lot of time in the law office or was it just like a few hours

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a day thing? I probably put in at least, uh, half a day a week. No, half a day. Yeah, five days. So, I probably would say about 20 hours a week during that time period in the summers I probably work part time. So, was that the

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point where you got interested in law. Well, I really had no plans to go to law school. I think I was graduating from U of H and I says, what do I do? Now? I have a degree in anthropology. You don't do much. So choice was

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either go to graduate school. So I ended up going to law school instead. Which law school did you apply for? South Texas? That's it. Because the uh person I was, was a South Texas graduates, the only law school I applied to was the first the the

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person who owned the office also Asian American or? Yes. OK. So was he um how did, did you know him at all before your friend recommended you? No. OK. And the people that worked in the in the law office was at he was a sole practitioner.

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So he became my mentor. He died about mhm 10, 12 years ago, about 12 years ago. So he was my mentor. So in a sense, became family for me. So is it um did the majority of the people working in his office was a sole practitioner?

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And so there wasn't, yeah or another that was about it. Um So what was your, you said he was your mentor? What was your kind of, was it more of a uh like a like a teacher student or like more of a father type, father, daughter

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type? Since you said, I think it's probably more father type, uh, because it became family, um, showed me, helped me through the law school process. I practice in his office and he helped me go through my elections and campaigns. Kind of going back a little bit.

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How much did the school cost college? Yeah. I think you, at that time it was probably $50 a semester. Yeah. Plus whatever fees worth it's, that's my recollections around when I first started it was like, maybe $50. That's what state tuition was back then. Wish that's

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what it was. There was there scholarship and grants for. No, I didn't. Uh, no, uh, I just kind of got family funds or I worked and paid for it. That's, I worked my way basically. And you commuted right from home to school. Mhm. So, what's the

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person Jimmie Lee? I'm talking about? Ok. All right. And you said you were earning about $250? I'm guessing, I don't remember. I think it was, I don't remember. I think it might have been, like, every two weeks or something like that, you know, or something like

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that. It wasn't a whole lot of money, was it? Do you know he was like, that's the general amount of money. Um, people in your position were paid or is it? Ok. So that's the market price. Yeah. Whatever it was. It's been so long. I don't

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remember. Ok. Could you reflect on your first years in law school? Like, did you enjoy it? Because you said you kind of just jumped right in. So I worked in the law office all day and I went to school at night. Ok. So, uh, South Texas

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back in those days was more on a night school and most people weren't during that time period. So, that's what I would do. I'd go to class and then on the daytime I'd work and the minute I took off from work, I'd go to class. Was

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there any particular area of law when you went to law school that you were interested in? What kind of law did? Um Mr Jimmy Lee, it was general practice. So when was it that you found out that you maybe wanted to go into particular or I,

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I mean, I think when I went to law school, I was just gonna do whatever general practice because that's what I saw. Um, all I knew was I wasn't going to do immigration because we were stereotyped as doing nothing but immigration work in those days and

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I refused to be stereotyped. Probably should have gone into it. I probably would have been making a whole lot more money, but I guess I was just headstrong that I just did not want to be stereotyped because I remember the first day I ran across somebody

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and I said, well, how's the immigration practice? I thought I don't practice immigration, but it was just a head strong decision of mine that I just didn't want to be. And at that time you had to realize it was like the Harry Gs and that were

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doing the immigration law. And so I just didn't want to be stereotyped at that point. So, was there a lot of Asians in law at all? No. Ok. So the, the ones that were in law were doing something in, related to immigration in the later years.

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Yeah, it did because you, you saw the Tim co and you saw the Harry Gs and a couple others that, I mean, that ended up doing immigration and that was the most high profile that you would see in the community at that time. So you talked

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about stereotypes. Were there any other types of stereotypes that you ran around that people had of Asian Americans during that time? Probably not because I don't think people were as aware, ok, as they are now, you know, all about all your ethnicities and all the other

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things during that time period. Um So you, you worked all throughout your time in law school at Jimmy Lee's office. Was there any other mentors that you remember from those days? That's it. So what made you start to run for judge? I think I've been in

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practice about nine years by that time period. And um I think my feeling is because I used to go to the courthouse because I did a lot of family work and a lot of other type things. And I, one day I decided, well, I said I'm

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just as good as these people are. You know, I think I'll just run for Judge. Of course, you know, I think it's really naive about the whole issue. But, uh, so I started that process and since, uh, Jimmy Lee was active in his own politics and

00:26:40.140 - 00:26:56.449

stuff, he encouraged me and he supported me. And so that's what I ran for. Judge. Of course, when I ran, I probably didn't know what all was involved in the process. And um during that first time, which was in 84 I actually lost in a runoff,

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uh ran again in 86 and lost in 98. So, did you come um, become a CV with the Democratic Party through Jimmy Lee also? Mhm. So when you said you were in practice for nine years before you ran for Judge, was that, were you referring to

00:27:14.040 - 00:27:32.219

Jimmy's office or did you have your own at all? Are opposite his office? Ok. So you never did any work at any law firm? Ok. I just kind of switched chairs, went from one desk to another desk. Do these uh law firm expand at all or

00:27:32.229 - 00:27:52.969

is it just that was it? Yeah. So after you said you, you lost in the runoff for your first election? Right? So did you make any changes when you came back the next year to run? I probably spent a lot of time in the community. Uh

00:27:53.900 - 00:28:13.609

Yeah, before I ran, I probably spent some time in Chinese organizations. Not a whole lot. Um, some, only because the fact that I had the degree you cut open some Asian organizations for you. Um, in 86 probably, by that time I'd gotten more involved in organizations.

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Uh I probably did the most during the time I was on the bench and after I left the bench, I just absolutely quit everything. Um, at what point did you get involved in the bar association? Asian American Bar Association? That's when they're founding members uh in

00:28:31.020 - 00:28:49.229

84. 0, so it's right. Right about then. Yeah. Yeah. So how did they, did they help you in your campaigns to become a judge? I think the organization was kind of formed uh about the time I was running and I think, uh the bar itself probably

00:28:49.239 - 00:29:07.150

doesn't do anything but the members of the bar would contribute to your campaign. A lot of them did. So what made you decide to found this association or be one of the founders? I just think that probably at that time, maybe because I was running for

00:29:07.160 - 00:29:22.459

office. But also I think there weren't a whole lot of lawyers that, you know, Asian lawyers. And I think by that time there might have been a dozen or so and we thought it's time to get together and some concerns like, you know, if we had

00:29:22.469 - 00:29:40.689

an organization, some people might pay more, some of the, you know, we'd have a little more clout and that sort of type of thing. And a lot of also kind of be a support group for each other. So, how did the general majority see Asian Americans

00:29:40.699 - 00:29:54.770

running for, like city government offices when I ran? I think it's a novelty. It was fun. Uh, I mean, actually I made the headlines of USA, today. I made News Week all the things because it was a, a novelty, you know, you didn't see Asian Americans

00:29:54.780 - 00:30:14.750

running for office. So that was kind of a, I think they accepted it. Well, they really did running back in office in those days is probably a lot gentler than it is today. Yeah. Did you have to mobilize the Asian community to support you or there

00:30:14.760 - 00:30:28.099

weren't enough Asian American voters even to make a damp at anything? Be perfectly honest. Uh, but they were the ones that people I knew they were very supportive. I mean, I remember getting checks from somebody like $10 somebody who was so proud of me and blah,

00:30:28.109 - 00:30:43.385

blah, blah. So they were, they would contribute to campaigns and they thought it was good. So, in that sense, but you couldn't depend on their votes because there wasn't enough because I was running county wide and there weren't even enough voters to even, you know, make

00:30:43.395 - 00:30:59.640

much difference. There weren't a whole lot of, um, voters. I think we discovered that in 84 there might have been 500 Asian households maybe back then. Uh, I think by the time I ran in 86 it might have increased to maybe 1500. But, you know, back

00:30:59.650 - 00:31:15.849

in those days and we had a really great scientific way of tracking it. We took all the voter, uh, polls and they would pick out any, anything that sounded like it was Asian. I mean, there was nothing scientific, there wasn't any databases, there wasn't anything available.

00:31:15.859 - 00:31:31.069

So we did our own little uh did you target specific groups when you were running your campaign? Because you're a Democrat, you do a lot of African Americans. And so I had very good inroads in the African American community because of the people like the Mickey

00:31:31.270 - 00:31:46.010

Leland back in those days who he probably is way too young for you to know. Uh So that's kind of, I have a great rapport with the African American community and I still do. OK, what kind of people surrounded you? Like the people who worked for

00:31:46.020 - 00:31:57.050

your campaign? What kind of people were they? I had a lot of old clients or Mr Lee's old clients. So some of the ladies who didn't speak English, they come to my campaign headquarters, they'd sweep the floors, make sure we had lunch and all the other

00:31:57.060 - 00:32:14.520

type of things. And then I had some very young ones and yeah, just a question out of curiosity was 84 a special year because it's, it's only two years in between 84 and the election in 86. So is it like a special election or something? No,

00:32:14.530 - 00:32:33.920

we have, we have elections every four years and they're staggered like this year is a gubernatorial year. 84 was a presidential year. Last year was presidential year. I happened to run in 84 because it was a bench that was um unexpired. So it would have been

00:32:33.930 - 00:32:49.510

up again in 86. But I happened to run in 84 because I thought it was. But that was the year that Reagan swept all the Democrats anyway. So I was, I lost. Well, good. Well, I didn't lose in the general election. I lost in the primary

00:32:49.520 - 00:33:03.729

but the primary was governed by, I was running against an African American woman in the runoff and there was a county commissioner race going on at that time. So all the African Americans were gonna vote for the black candidate. And because if you looked at the

00:33:03.739 - 00:33:17.739

time, I probably had more precincts but she had all the black boxes. So therefore she beat me in the runoff. So it's kind of, and then 86 was, is another cycle like this year. Uh half of our benches are up every two years. It's not the

00:33:17.750 - 00:33:30.949

same one. That's why that happened. And my shot like if I didn't win in 86 I wasn't gonna do it again because I spent too much time and it's time to move on. So, so was there any particular reason that you ran for a civil court

00:33:30.959 - 00:33:44.829

and then switch to a criminal court? Well, I did the, uh, civil court because that's what I was gonna run for. But when I looked at 86 the person who I lost to in the runoff was gonna run for that one. So I thought, and the

00:33:44.839 - 00:34:09.909

criminal court was an open bench because the judge was retiring. So that's why I ran for that. There wasn't any technical. Ok. Ok. Mhm. So I ended up, I did that for about 12 years. And were you nervous in the elections? Did you have to make

00:34:09.919 - 00:34:28.260

public appearances? And a lot of that when I first did it in 84 I had a campaign person. She'd have to drag me out of a car because I wouldn't go in. Uh you have to understand that I was extremely shy person and uh I just,

00:34:28.429 - 00:34:40.550

I just didn't wanna go anywhere. So, but I, I learned, I forced myself to do it. Uh Probably today, I'm probably as good as anybody at work in a room. But back then it was like, uh and you know, if you understand it, if you look

00:34:40.560 - 00:34:52.870

at culturally, it's very hard for us. Um because in your own culture, you don't brag about yourself, you don't talk about yourself you know, as that goes and then if you go out in electorate, you had to do that. So I had to learn to shift

00:34:52.879 - 00:35:15.419

gears. So, what did you brag about when you finally push yourself? I was qualified. I was good. But all you can talk about and that's all judges can ever promise that you'd be fair. Right? Um So how do you think any of the things you, the

00:35:15.429 - 00:35:32.189

past things you did or any of the people you knew helped you a lot in the election process? Is there anything special that stands out? I think what I said about the election process, it was a good growing experience. It's probably very expensive. But as a

00:35:32.199 - 00:35:50.189

person I grew and I probably got to know more about people. I can appreciate, uh, the different groups in the city or the county. And, uh, I think it just made you grow as a person, you know, and most of us have a tendency to stay

00:35:50.199 - 00:36:13.080

in our own circles of what we're comfortable with. And I think that forced me to see the community at large. So I think that's one of the best things that ever happened in running for office as, uh, working in a city governmental position. Did you, do

00:36:13.090 - 00:36:29.139

you feel like you made any changes or helped shape Houston in any way since you were the first Asian American woman? I think in a sense that I think during the campaign which is kind of interesting is that most people didn't think of me as being

00:36:29.149 - 00:36:42.330

Asian only because probably because I spoke English with a Texas accent. Uh First couple of times when I was going to functions in 84 people would say, like if you go to the redneck areas, let's say we like to send you back where you all came

00:36:42.340 - 00:36:55.780

from, but you had to temperate with the person who said it in their age. Uh I think I probably didn't suffer as many because what they're surprised that came out of my mouth because it is English with a Texas accent. So I think they're very comfortable

00:36:55.790 - 00:37:11.149

with that. Um So some people never thought of me as being Asian American uh on the bench. I think it just let them think that we're capable, we're able to do, you know what everyone else does because it isn't an area they're used to seeing Asians

00:37:11.159 - 00:37:25.399

on the bench or even in criminal law period or even at the courthouse. So I think that way I made a difference, I ended up doing a lot of community boards during that time period because I feel like, uh you know, everybody's looking for diversity during

00:37:25.409 - 00:37:38.899

that time period. So I ended up being one of them, you know, being selected to sit on this board or this and that. So I got involved. I probably got more involved in the community at large during that time period. What were some of the boards

00:37:38.909 - 00:37:54.020

that you sat on? I did the uh United Way for over 10 years. I was on the executive committee. Um, um I did the Red Cross. I did the private sector. I did the uh Women's Foundation and all the other stuff here. I even made you

00:37:54.030 - 00:38:14.129

a list. So I forgot all the things I did. So I gave it a look of that. Thank you very much. Um So as a criminal judge, you come across any um complications or any difficulties in any of your hearings or was there one that was

00:38:14.139 - 00:38:29.300

very memorable to you? I think if you uh the one thing I do remember a lot is when I first got on the bench, uh trespassing abortion clinics was a big issue and I didn't realize that when I got there all of a sudden one day

00:38:29.310 - 00:38:41.020

I showed up and I saw all these people and I had all these cases and it's, and I was the only woman in our division at that time. So I had all these trespassers abortion clinic and I was getting hate mail from 10 year olds, you

00:38:41.030 - 00:38:54.340

know, and that sort of thing. So it was, uh that was probably the thing that I remembered most when I got there. Uh The rest of it is just you do your job and you know, so how did you deal with the, we went to trial

00:38:54.350 - 00:39:09.280

on those cases? Oh, we just tried them, um, you know, jury heard them and, you know, that sort of thing. And how did you deal with the hate mails and things like that? I just didn't respond to them. Ok. Yeah. And occasionally, you know, when you're

00:39:09.290 - 00:39:21.770

on the bench you'll get mail from people that you probably shouldn't get mail. At one time I had some from the FBI come. I thought what in the world is this? He wanted to go through my mail. Apparently somebody in jail who was against, you know,

00:39:21.780 - 00:39:34.070

Asians or any people was sending out all sorts of stuff and apparently was on his list. And I didn't know that. I said, oh, ok. But you know, when you're a criminal bench and here it's not as high profile as if you were in the state,

00:39:34.080 - 00:39:58.780

a federal judge or whatever. You have those really big high profile cases. I didn't have those. So, so do you remember your first month or first? We first year as a job? She, is there any first month? I had to go to the job every day.

00:39:58.790 - 00:40:10.780

I, I was getting cabin fever the first month I was there. I thought I have to come and do this every day. I must have been crazy out of my mind. I almost quit. I did. I was like, and then I thought, well, I spent all

00:40:10.790 - 00:40:21.199

this time and all this money running for this. What do you mean? I wanted to quit. So I had to get myself used to the idea that I had to come and do this every day. So, we were very different from when you were in, uh,

00:40:21.209 - 00:40:33.379

Jimmy Lee's office. Yeah, because when you're in private practice you kind of control your own time, you control what you do. And so for me that was the first job I really had to go to every day, you know, that sort of thing. And, you know,

00:40:33.639 - 00:40:52.270

this is your job. So I got panicky the first month, at least the first couple of weeks. So was there anybody who walked you through it? No, I just had to. Yeah, this is what you have to do. So, were there any other stresses other than

00:40:52.280 - 00:41:05.340

that first month that you experience? Well, you always have stress as a judge because you are always worried about your decisions. Are you doing the right thing? And if you didn't, I don't think you're doing your job. So you always stress over anything in the system

00:41:05.350 - 00:41:29.379

because you're affecting someone else's life somewhere along the way. Was there any accidental slips or? Oh, I forgot. I couldn't, I shouldn't say that and things like that. I'm sure there were, I'm sure there were. And were you ever in a way misunderstood? I don't know

00:41:29.389 - 00:41:47.659

either in the decision ruling or anything. I don't think so. And when you were on the bench you noticed any trending crime or was there any particular period of time where, like, crime rates are way up or? It's like a period of time. No, it's just

00:41:47.669 - 00:42:02.679

that the county is so big and it's, I mean, ok, crime just at certain times of year would increase or decrease. But, you know, it all ran fairly constant. I think dockets are a lot larger now than they were back then because the county has gotten

00:42:02.689 - 00:42:20.239

larger, you know, back then it was probably a little over 2 million or something. And now we're at four. So those are the differences that we see. Yeah. And you said there was a lot of cases involving trespassing in abortion clinics. How did you see that

00:42:20.300 - 00:42:33.469

number of those cases change over time? They just gradually go down because it wasn't an issue anymore or was it? I think it still is. In fact, we were preparing for that in case, you know, we have the New Planned Parenthood building opening up. So our

00:42:33.479 - 00:42:50.580

officers prepared for if there were protest or something, that sort of thing. Uh, I think they've gone different ways of handling their protests and not like before in those days, they used to chain themselves to the doors or, you know, that's what they would lie on

00:42:50.590 - 00:43:05.979

the ground, you couldn't move them and that sort of thing. So I think they've gone to different methods of doing things now. So that was, I mean, that's the most memorable one that I remember back in those because the first one there, I'm like, wow. So,

00:43:05.989 - 00:43:18.479

would you say you enjoyed your time as a judge? I think being a judge is good because, you know, you made a difference if you did your job. Right. Uh, I don't miss the campaigning part of it and having to raise the money. Uh, that one

00:43:18.489 - 00:43:30.729

always had to do when you ran for office. Uh, it's just not easy raising dollars. I mean, no one likes to ask someone for money is what I got to say. I've never learned some people. It doesn't bother me and just do it so easily, but

00:43:30.739 - 00:43:44.989

I just had a hard time doing that. So, did you have to call yourself and ask for the money personally? Or I actually took out loans. I took loans and then after the campaigns, I'd have the fundraisers and try and pay them off or, you know,

00:43:45.000 - 00:43:59.419

if you need something. So, how did the party help you with the Democratic Party? Other than you're a Democrat? You might get your name on a poster, but they don't act. I was not one of those races where they would give you money. They don't normally

00:43:59.429 - 00:44:16.959

give judicial candidates any money. You end up supporting them. So how you say you end up supporting them? How did you support the Democratic or did you, you pay your filing fees? You pay their memberships, you do all the other things for them, you know, that

00:44:16.979 - 00:44:33.770

sort of thing. They don't, they do not give you money. And what kind of, what, what people in the electorate contributed a large amount of money to your campaign. Oh, there's always some defense lawyers that would do it. You had friends and, um, I guess at

00:44:33.780 - 00:44:47.350

the first time because I was running there was a lot of probably Chinese that were giving me money because it is something new for the community and someone's progressing and they could see it. And so therefore they would give me money for my Campos because they

00:44:47.360 - 00:45:00.830

saw something that was good for the future for their Children or somebody's doing something that's going to advance our community. And it's amazing, a lot of those people may not have been educated, they were like store owners or they did, but they felt like they were

00:45:00.840 - 00:45:27.889

doing for their families, for their Children or future generations. So in 1998 you lost the election. I think it was like a Republican sweep of basically everything. Ok. Um Looking back, would you have done anything differently? I don't think there was anything I could have done.

00:45:28.270 - 00:45:43.260

I really don't. But I always knew that, you know, I went through every election cycle that I would lose my job. There was always that possibility. So you always knew that could happen. And I guess in 98 because it was this week, there wasn't anything different.

00:45:43.270 - 00:46:00.010

I could have done. Did you ever have anything in mind as, like something a job you could have on the back burner since you knew that every, you know, I'm not one of these that plans 10 years down the road. This is what I'm gonna be

00:46:00.020 - 00:46:13.449

doing now. I guess you also knew that you could always go back to practicing law if you had to. Yeah, that's, I guess that's the beauty of having a law degree. You can do those things whether you want to or I chose not to. I ended

00:46:13.459 - 00:46:26.010

up working for Commissioner Lee for the last, I guess, for 10 years. And, uh, I actually met Commissioner Lee in 84 when I first ran for office. What was your relation to him or how did you meet him? Because he was running for county commissioner and

00:46:26.020 - 00:46:43.080

I was running for judge and we met each other on the election circle. Ok. So I, I worked for him for the 10 years. Then I came over to the das office. Why did you, uh, when, when you were elected in 1998 why didn't you keep

00:46:43.090 - 00:47:02.030

trying to get elected again? Because I think I've been there, done that. It's, uh, it, it's really hard to run for office. Uh, I think it's not physically hard. Maybe it is too. But, you know, I think psychologically I wasn't ready to do it again. I've

00:47:02.040 - 00:47:16.270

been there, I've been through that process and I just didn't want to do it. I mean, someone asked, don't you want to do it again? Give me democrats again. I said no, you know, it was fine in my life at that time period. It was good.

00:47:16.280 - 00:47:38.340

I might have wanted to stay a little bit longer, but I think I just wasn't willing to put myself out again to do that. So, was it easy to transition into your next job as, um, assistant to the commissioner? I think it was a healing period

00:47:38.350 - 00:47:57.649

for me. I mean, to go through the process, I think IO I operated probably on a remote some of them in 99. I was very fortunate. Uh I've had, I know people that never recovered from a loss and uh for me, it was a healing process

00:47:57.659 - 00:48:09.239

and just trying to figure out what am I gonna do. And so I was fortunate, I had a lot of friends who would uh check on me, make sure I had uh go to dinner. They took care of me, you know. So, yeah, I did that.

00:48:09.250 - 00:48:23.050

It, you do need a healing process, but I had a friend that lost in 94. I couldn't understand it, but after the loss, you could kind of see it. Uh So it was a good, it was a healing process for me because, because, you know, whenever

00:48:23.060 - 00:48:41.959

you lose the election, it's like it's rejection in a sense, you know, it is and it's just a big rejection. So you have to kind of recover from that. So did you go in, go work for a commissioner? You right away or the recovery period? No,

00:48:41.969 - 00:48:53.379

I worked for right away because I knew my county pension and I had to have a bridging period. I only see when you go from one department to another, you only have a seven day bridge. So I had to get on to his payroll quick. So

00:48:53.389 - 00:49:09.629

I went to visit him probably right after, shortly after the election because my term was till the end of the year. And so I started his office on January 1, technically uns positional. Now, was there any other options available for you? I didn't look at it.

00:49:10.530 - 00:49:23.540

I mean, I think the other option is probably I could have practiced law or something. And, you know, it had been over 10 years since, you know, I practiced law, the clientele, you know, it's, it was a hard process and I didn't want to have to

00:49:23.550 - 00:49:39.080

go through all that. So, and partly so I ended up working for commissioner, partly because it's my retirement. That was in the county system. So that's where I ended up working. Kind of, uh my job processes over there just evolved into whatever I ended up doing.

00:49:39.090 - 00:49:57.929

So I did some of his legal work, um, did some of his community outreach. You know, I learned a lot about county government. Uh I know probably I know quite a bit about county government in the sense of relationships, how each department works and all the

00:49:57.939 - 00:50:16.419

other things because I work for him and you talk about pension things that over time when you were judged, did you notice how was there any change in the way a judge was compensated or? Now, um, you know, salaries are always kind of set by the

00:50:16.429 - 00:50:29.669

state. Then it goes, there's a form that goes into the county and so forth. So I think there were some pay raises in between. But, you know, it wasn't anything you campaigned on or did anything about it. It's just, you know, the commissioners would set the

00:50:29.679 - 00:50:50.280

salaries, that sort of thing. So it's a similar thing for when you're working for the commissioner, when the, when the commissioner, I worked directly for the commissioner. So I was on his payroll. I was one of his precinct employees. So, but it's all the same counter

00:50:50.310 - 00:51:09.780

retirement system. It's just that my contributions were different. And so was it during this time that you weren't as involved in community? I actually quit everything after I lost the election. I just quit every community board that I was on or I didn't re up or

00:51:09.790 - 00:51:23.780

when people asked me, I said, no, I just completely shut it off. And after 98 is there a particular reason? Just you didn't want to deal with it? I think, I think I just got tired of doing it and because I did it for so long,

00:51:23.850 - 00:51:43.899

uh, when I was a judge and everything and then I just kind of didn't do anything. I would occasionally do something but not much. But it was just that I think I needed a break and then I just did not go back to it. Um, I

00:51:43.909 - 00:52:05.050

know you already said this, um, something about your job as special assistant to the county commissioner. Is there any other interesting things you did during that period when you were working for him? No, I mean, um, not really. So, you, you learn a lot about inter

00:52:05.449 - 00:52:24.909

governmental relationship or something within the county? Yeah, I did. Did you, uh, did he introduce you or did you meet any contacts during that time period that you, may, you see your advantage later on evolving your career and et cetera? I mean, he and I knew

00:52:24.919 - 00:52:39.370

a lot of the same people already from, um, I guess during the time I worked from, I probably knew, got to know more people that work in county government, just the regular and how the department, uh, relate to each other, how they work and that sort

00:52:39.379 - 00:52:58.290

of thing. But that's it. Like, if I were to call somebody, I probably would know who to call better now than I did 10 years ago, you know, or how they, what department, how they work together and so forth. So, did you have any throughout the

00:52:58.300 - 00:53:14.929

years. Did you meet any friends or contacts in different parts of the city that helped you when you are, you might be going through like a hard time or things like that. Um, no, I didn't. Uh, I think everything was ok. I mean, there wasn't any

00:53:14.939 - 00:53:36.739

really hard times in the sense. Uh, I was employed, you were working, you know, that sort of thing. There wasn't any, I just learned how, how county government works, better know. Was there any outside support groups or anything that she kept your spirit up? I just,

00:53:36.750 - 00:53:54.040

my friends. Ok. Yeah, it's, yeah, I was fortunate. I had a lot of good friends, you know, you know, I'd get involved in their projects a little bit but they do. But it wasn't something that was, that I had to be doing all the time, which

00:53:54.050 - 00:54:10.000

was kind of nice. So, are these your friends who you met along your way as, like government official or friends from a long time ago? Most of them? I would, well, it's separate the Chinese friends because we've known each other for a very long time. Uh,

00:54:10.010 - 00:54:21.800

some of them were people I met while I was on the bench or so forth and we became friends. But, you know, really, if you think about being a judge is a very lonely life in the sense that you can't be friends with a lot of

00:54:21.810 - 00:54:41.879

folks, especially lawyers. So, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a different type of friends. So that changed when you move, changed occupation to just helping commissioner or did that not change? Uh, no, you still have your same core friends that you've always had. Uh, there's

00:54:41.889 - 00:54:54.530

another thing, it probably is that if you're not in office, it's like they'll say, like, what have you done for me, baby? If you realize that, think about it. Uh, when you're not in a certain position, you can help people. They're your fair. There's a lot

00:54:54.540 - 00:55:13.209

of what I call fair weather friends because you're not able to help them so that you don't hear from them. So, how long were you in the position with Commissioner Lee? 10 years? 10 years? And then you moved here directly after? Or was there a no

00:55:13.219 - 00:55:31.469

right here right after. So how did you meet, um, like she's a judge. I was a judge. We knew each other back in the days. But, um, we'd ran when she was working for Commissioner Echols and, um, meet Judge Echols. Uh, we did toll road hearings

00:55:31.479 - 00:55:46.479

and we'd have lunch once a while. So when she got on this job, she asked me if I wanted to come over, she had to submit a resume and to her, go through all that process. No. So did you want, did you ever think about leaving

00:55:46.489 - 00:56:06.389

Commissioner first or did she? Just because she asked you, you came over here? She, so I came, I probably, if I hadn't come, I probably would have retired of. So, what are some of your, what's your role here in her office? I'm one of our bureau

00:56:06.399 - 00:56:21.639

chiefs. I'm in charge of all of our operations. Um I manage a couple of bureaus, uh part of our executive leadership team. And so I have my finger and a whole lot of different pies in this office. Our office has about 600 people. We have a

00:56:21.649 - 00:56:42.120

budget of about $60 million and uh I oversee probably some of the hiring issues and a lot of those type of administrative operations type things, budget comes under me. And I would think so, do you feel like any of the skills you learned before in your

00:56:42.129 - 00:57:03.790

other occupations helped you and is helping you in this? I think um I think a lot of what I learned in Commissioner Lee's office helps me deal with our Commissioner's court processes and the budget issues that we have to go through. Um Was there any special

00:57:03.800 - 00:57:17.699

incentives for you to take up this job? Because you said you were going to retire when you come and work here? I guess she asked me and I thought it would be something nice to do for a while. Ok. Yes, I know. It sounds like a

00:57:17.709 - 00:57:32.679

terrible, it, it, it's a good reason. I mean, you know, I mean, this job, I my friends are laughing and saying this is probably my first real job. I'm thinking uh I was judged. They said, yeah, but that's not the same, you know. And I said,

00:57:32.689 - 00:57:44.300

what do you mean? I said that was hard work. She said, yeah, but you were in control. This is a real, real job. I'm like, let you say so. Uh I actually am having a good time. I'm um I'm enjoying what I'm doing. Uh There are

00:57:44.310 - 00:58:02.000

new challenges and uh kind of keeps me going because a lot, some of my friends are retired at this age. And uh so there's new challenges for me. How do you feel being not being in control and being in this real job sometimes? I think it's

00:58:02.010 - 00:58:17.820

frustrating but i it's uh it's ok. I've learned, you know, um I guess working for Commissioner in a sense was probably my first employer, employer besides Jimmy Lee because, but because that was family, you kind of got by doing a lot of stuff. So I guess

00:58:17.830 - 00:58:34.310

Commissioner Lee would have been probably among my first employers. And so then being here is not much different uh in that sense. Uh But my friends were just laughing because they just felt like being judged. Wasn't that work? I think that was hard work. Uh So,

00:58:34.320 - 00:58:53.419

uh so they laughed and said, this is my first real job. Could you give it? You said you had to face more challenges here. Could you give us some examples of say there's always things popping here. I mean, because, uh, we are the, uh, third largest

00:58:53.429 - 00:59:08.679

county and, you know, with all the criminal justices, uh, system things that go on. We have hiring issues right now. We have, the county is in a hiring freeze. We got budget issues and there's just a lot of cases going on today. I'm having to deal

00:59:08.689 - 00:59:22.100

with some issues with the fellow that killed the three people. So we got to work on extradition. We got, you know, just a lot of things that just go on in this office. It's just constantly busy. I don't think people realize how busy we are. I

00:59:22.149 - 00:59:39.889

think the office handled over well, over 130,000 cases last year. So it's a lot of stuff that goes on and, you know, making sure worried about jail overcrowding. There's just a lot of stuff that goes on that one doesn't even think about until I was actually

00:59:39.899 - 00:59:59.030

here. I probably wouldn't have realized how busy this office actually is. Even while it's on the bench, I probably wouldn't have realized how busy at all the different things that this office entails. And, um, we found an article online. It was, uh, in the Houston Chronicle

00:59:59.040 - 01:00:19.179

a while ago, there was like some controversy regarding diversity and hiring. How would you respond to that? I think we probably have more diversity in our office than it's ever had before. I think part of that article came from some disgruntled employee and uh they didn't

01:00:19.189 - 01:00:38.709

know the true facts. We probably are very diverse, much more than they were in the past. And you also have to realize years and years ago in the past, you didn't find that much diversity in a lawyer's period. That was, uh so I think we are

01:00:38.719 - 01:00:57.189

and we're always on the lookout trying to pick the best and the brightest, whatever their ethnicity group is. And then a lot of times it will fall in place, you know. So how would you say you get along with the people in this office? Know, I

01:00:57.199 - 01:01:17.040

think a lot of the prosecutors, some of the prosecutors in the office were baby prosecutors when I was on the bench. So, you know, there, there are some relationships there and, uh, ok, so it's kind of interesting to see that, you know, and, uh, it is,

01:01:17.050 - 01:01:31.260

it is and what they're doing some, you know, a lot of people, offices are places where a lot of people will stay for a short period and then leave. But there's amazing the number of people that are still here and made a career of being a

01:01:31.270 - 01:01:53.100

prosecutor. How long are you planning on staying? I don't know. I told you, I don't plan those many years down the road. Less things to worry about it is, it is. It is. I think there's part of me and it's, um, I like to be impulsive

01:01:53.110 - 01:02:06.070

part, part of me, there's part of me that wants to do that. Uh, I know it's not the way you're supposed to do things but it kind of takes if I plan out it, some people are very good at planning out things. I'm just not, I

01:02:06.110 - 01:02:31.370

think there's part of me to see what happens, happens here though. Whatever works. Yeah. So, um, over time, how do you see the number of Asians participating in law grow? But it is already uh increased tremendously. If you, uh I used to think I saw some

01:02:31.379 - 01:02:47.530

old clients or Children are lawyers. I see their numbers are growing. Uh When I first, when we were doing our Asian American bar, I said, yeah, we could have all the Asian lawyers in our hands, you know, on our fingers. Um The numbers have increased tremendously.

01:02:47.540 - 01:03:00.340

You see them in the big firms, which is probably the biggest step when their parents see it that way. Um So even in the das office, there's more Asians than there used to be. I mean, nobody went into law back in those days. What do you

01:03:00.350 - 01:03:17.870

think? Um What do you think the reason was that not many of them wouldn't be at that time period? Because I think it was just probably, you know, when I went to law school, there was probably 5% women. Now, either classes are over 50% women. Asians

01:03:17.879 - 01:03:35.129

probably went into the sciences and that's what their families wanted them to do. And so I think law was probably something just evolved a little bit later. I don't know whether it was their, their family's perception. Maybe the family urges them to be lawyers. I mean,

01:03:35.139 - 01:03:55.209

to doctors as opposed to being lawyers and that sort of thing, but today there's a lot of them, I mean, you know, the numbers have increased tremendously. Um, what about public offices in general? Do you notice any trends? Well, if you notice there was a trend,

01:03:55.219 - 01:04:12.030

you know, you had the Martha Won, you had the Gordon Kanz, you've had uh the MK. So there are some Asians running for office and it never happened before. So it's happening. Uh They're surrounding, I haven't kept track of all our surrounding suburbs or surrounding communities

01:04:12.040 - 01:04:29.280

that have Asian City Council folks and, you know, the numbers have just increased. Was there? I mean, do you remember if there's any door that opened that, that to more people or is it just a general developmental trend? There wasn't anything special or that something like

01:04:29.290 - 01:04:46.429

that could happen? Some people said the doors were opening and then, you know, probably, and then, I don't know, I just think probably it is evolution in a sense of it evolves and just seeing people running until they feel, gee I'm gonna do it too or

01:04:46.439 - 01:05:01.449

that sort of thing. I really do think that makes a difference. Did you get any fine mails when you were, became when you were when you were elected. Yeah, I did, I did, I did. How do you feel about that? Well, I have a few people

01:05:01.459 - 01:05:16.469

that say, oh, you're the inspiration. This is why I did it. This is what I'm doing. Uh, I'm kind of like, that's nice, but I don't think of it as, you know, I'm taking credit for any of that because I'm not, uh, I just think it's

01:05:16.479 - 01:05:36.340

nice that they're doing it. So out of your three different sort of type jobs, what do you think? What do you consider the peak of your career being judge? Why? Because when you become a lawyer, I think the ultimate thing that would you want as a

01:05:36.350 - 01:05:56.360

lawyer is to become a judge or be something in that position. I mean, that was the highest pinnacle you could reach as a lawyer as being judge. And what do you think are some of the important attributes both personally and in general for Asian Americans that

01:05:56.370 - 01:06:14.780

make them would make them successful in law in law? I think they're very successful at all because, you know, they have the work ethic, you know, to do that. Um I think for them to be successful in the sense, if you think of advancements in like

01:06:14.790 - 01:06:28.800

in the, the large firms or some of the other firms, there's probably community involvement and that is probably not only as growth for you as an individual person, but it's good for the community because the community needs help and you have to give back because that's

01:06:28.810 - 01:06:43.129

the whole purpose of why you're involved in it. And as a community uh person, that's a servant, that's what you do as a public servant, that's what you do. And I think all of it all ties together because it leads to your advancements and also allows

01:06:43.139 - 01:07:00.610

you the opportunity, opportunity to enjoy what you're doing. It makes you feel good about yourself as well. You know, we always have to reach back and help the community because we don't exist in a vacuum. So I don't think it matters whether it's law or other

01:07:00.620 - 01:07:19.459

professions. I think it all involves some community in giving back. So in what you do. So it, it does whether you're a teacher, whether you're a nurse, whether you're a cook, whatever, you know, cooks do give back too. I ran across a kid the other day.

01:07:19.469 - 01:07:32.419

Uh He graduated from high school, he's going to go to culinary school, but he loves cooking. But, you know, he gives back in the sense that he cooks for other people, you know, that can't cook for themselves and looks out. So they're all giving back and

01:07:32.429 - 01:07:50.459

it also makes him grow as a person. How do you feel you get him back? I get back because I'm in the office. No, I am in that sense. Uh I do do some community things. Um uh That's how I end up giving back and I

01:07:50.469 - 01:08:09.820

mentor and help other people along the process in this job. You know, what do you feel are some of your personal strengths that has, have pushed you along so far? Determination about it? Because I feel like, you know, I don't like to give up on things.

01:08:14.919 - 01:08:38.640

Mhm. And I hate it when someone tells you you can't do something. But I think that's just human nature. That, and how would you evaluate the Asian American Professional Network in Houston? Was it helpful? Is it adequate when you're running for August when you're working or

01:08:38.649 - 01:08:54.168

is there room for improvement? Well, I think probably when I was running for office there weren't as many groups. Uh, I think for me and because I haven't been that involved I could be completely wrong in this. I'd like for them to, when they are doing

01:08:54.179 - 01:09:08.580

it, they are reaching out to others, you know, not just their group, but they are helping on other groups and just, I think that makes a whole lot of difference, you know, before, you know, people would stick strictly to their own communities. But I don't think

01:09:08.589 - 01:09:22.250

you can do that. You have to reach out to other groups and you have to help out. Mhm. So, I think the organizations are doing much more than they used to. Of course, it's a lot more of them too. But I just, I think to see

01:09:22.259 - 01:09:47.769

them volunteering and helping out even though it's not their own. She is with your own group and everything. I think it's great. It's great to see. Drink some water. I forgot to offer any water. Would y'all like some water? Not very good hostess here. So, so

01:09:47.778 - 01:10:04.509

you only have two other siblings, right? So, and they're not, is, is your brother still around Houston? He's deceased. Uh, he has his Children. He has, uh, still live in the Houston area. We're not close at all. Uh, my sister has Children and I visit her

01:10:04.520 - 01:10:19.779

maybe once or twice, uh, once a year or so, maybe, um, because we are so far apart and, uh, we're not close in that sense because she was married by the time I was 10. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's, you don't, the only thing

01:10:19.790 - 01:10:32.529

we probably have a lot in common is we have the same parents, you know, and, uh, and how family goes and, uh, it's not like I had really siblings, like two years or four years apart or anything. It's just that we are like three separate families.

01:10:36.620 - 01:11:02.830

Um What do you, what would you say? It's your proudest moment to this day, your career. Like I said, probably when I got sworn in the shed. And was there any particularly difficult moments in, in that period also that you'd rather forget? Or it's been good?

01:11:04.649 - 01:11:22.879

Hm. Um, and do you have anything to say to Asian Americans considering a career in law today. I think it's a great profession. I just think, you know, um, that's what they want to do and they enjoy it, I think, go for it, whatever it is.

01:11:22.930 - 01:11:37.770

You know, I know that a lot of them will probably stay in certain jobs because it's secure and whatever, you know, and the money and so forth. But if they're not happy with it, try something else. You know, it just, it all follows in its place.

01:11:38.200 - 01:11:53.120

I mean, there's, I've seen people leave huge jobs, big dollars to do community things because that's what they enjoy if they can afford to do it. I think it's fantastic. I really do. I admire someone that would leave, you know, a huge paying job and go

01:11:53.129 - 01:12:10.509

and do volunteer work, but that's what makes them happy. And I, I really truly admire that. I just wanna touch on a couple of the associations you were in just, um, so you were part of the Asian American Bar Association and you won the Impact Award

01:12:10.520 - 01:12:26.120

in 2007. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what that was for? Oh, that's the local Asian American bars because I probably impacted their community, the Asian American Bar. And so it's kind of like an award or like, how in, what way did

01:12:26.129 - 01:12:40.540

you impact or how did they, I think because they saw it personally because I was the first Chinese uh American uh lawyer in the state of Texas. Uh Just the fact that I went and ran for judge and did all those type of things. I assuming

01:12:40.549 - 01:12:57.580

that's why they gave me the award. Uh I did kind of mentor other Asian American lawyers. Uh I think they feel like because the community involvement is how it impacted the community. Uh I think that part of my community involvement didn't just involve, impact the Asian

01:12:57.589 - 01:13:14.459

American community, I think impacted the community as a whole. What were some of the venues where you mentored some of the um young lawyers, Asian American lawyers? Oh, probably because when they were found when we did the Asian American Bar, some people will call, we'll meet

01:13:14.470 - 01:13:31.689

and we'll talk about or whatever. I do speaking engagements and, you know, and every time they've called up in reception and the community things whenever they ask me to do speaking engagements and that sort of thing, I do do that. So do the Asian American lawyers

01:13:31.700 - 01:13:45.359

communicate a lot in Houston, the community. They um they probably do a lot. I probably don't do as much with them because they're so young uh now and um they get together quite a bit. I mean, it's a whole group of folks, a lot of them

01:13:45.370 - 01:13:59.970

are in the large firms, so they probably communicate a lot more than some of the ones uh we call the Asian American Bar, the older folks, you know, like the Harry or the Gordons or the Harry Herberts and all that sort of thing. Uh, they're very

01:13:59.979 - 01:14:20.470

young and, uh, when I go to the, some bar thing, somebody say, God, they're young. You were also a board member for the Texas Center for the Judiciary. Um, what were some, as a board member? Did you make any changes or any memorable things during that

01:14:20.479 - 01:14:40.680

time? Oh, probably just, I probably gave me that you had to realize, I mean, during those time periods you didn't see anything that what you saw on the judiciary were white males and that's, uh, at the time I ran for judge, there were nothing but white

01:14:40.689 - 01:14:57.040

males on the bench or very few women. So that's partly why I said, well, gee, I can do as good a job as I can. So I decided to run for a job and I'm going back a little bit. Why did you pick the Democratic Party?

01:14:58.540 - 01:15:10.689

I think because their values are way, uh, I was kind of brought up in those, you know, I'm still part of the Democratic Party. I still vote as a Democrat. Uh, even though everybody probably in this office is a Republican, but I still do. I, I

01:15:10.700 - 01:15:26.299

think, I believe in some of their values. I don't say, I agree with everything that the party does and, you know, I guess the same way if you're a Republican, you know, favor some things but you're not, you know, and in the community did. You know

01:15:26.310 - 01:15:39.680

this were a lot of Asian Americans, Democrats as well. I would say majority of the Asian Americans are probably more Republican than they are Democrats. We used to always count Asians. There were Democrats, we say, are you a democrat? You had to come out of hiding

01:15:39.830 - 01:15:57.299

because I think uh the Republicans have more influence in, in the city in the county than Democrats do. I mean, I just couldn't switch parties. I know that in 98 some people wanted me to become Republican just because they thought I would lose my bench because

01:15:57.310 - 01:16:15.240

I was a democrat and I just couldn't get myself to do. I mean, some people do it, but I just didn't seem the right thing to do at the time. Um So you said your, your personal values um were similar with the Democrats? Were, did you

01:16:15.250 - 01:16:31.709

have any family values that pushed you into say to do what you're doing now? I probably think Jimmy Lee is probably the closest in the sense because he did a lot of democratic issues and people. And so I guess that's probably about as close. I mean,

01:16:31.720 - 01:16:54.979

he opened some doors for me in the communities and that sort of thing because that's what he knew these people. So what were you expecting? No, because every, every interview is different. I mean, they each have a different story. So we weren't expecting anything. Did you

01:16:54.990 - 01:17:17.540

have preconceived ideas? No. Oh. Did you have any preconceived ideas? Oh. Mhm. It's been a great experience talking to you. We learn, certainly learned a lot. Is there anything that we forgot to ask that you want to add? No, I don't think so. I don't really

01:17:17.549 - 01:17:37.279

know. I'll think about it. No, I'm just gonna say what it did for you and what it, you know, this project. So, what did it do? The project do for you? I think since I'm not really Asian studies, but since it is focused on labor and

01:17:37.290 - 01:17:52.959

capital, and I'm an economics major, I guess it helps to see as an Asian American how these people progressed and I guess don't make some of the same, same mistakes they made before and then learn from some of their qualities. Well, probably a lot of them

01:17:52.970 - 01:18:09.089

open doors for you to make it easier for you in a sense, you may not, uh, see it right away but somewhere along the process they did, you know, whoever, you know, that, you know, you follow, it just makes that difference. Uh People probably consider you

01:18:09.100 - 01:18:23.080

differently. I think like I said, when I first ran for office, the lady says we want you back and I'm thinking, ok, and they were surprised the first time I opened my mouth, you know, what came out of my mouth. So, I mean, in that sense,

01:18:23.089 - 01:18:39.790

um I think anything like this is probably a good growing experience for you but I've just, you know, it makes it easier, you know, I think it's important to learn some of the older generations of Asian Americans what they've done in the community to, um, open

01:18:39.799 - 01:18:54.859

doors for later generations. For me, like, for me, I'm a new immigrant and just came here in 2002. So it, it's interesting, it's an important experience for me personally to learn what have the older generation of people done and what I can, what I can gain

01:18:54.870 - 01:19:08.259

from that experience, et cetera. Yeah, because you were the younger ones didn't go through what we had to. Like, we all ended up, like you said, we ended up at the grocery stores, we worked in the grocery stores, we didn't do the school activities that a

01:19:08.270 - 01:19:19.560

lot of kids get to do now and that sort of thing. And, you know, you see them today. It's like God, my parents would have never let me go to Stanford because it was way out of, you know, some of the guys did but the girls

01:19:19.569 - 01:19:37.609

weren't, you know, it's just, uh you never even thought about those things in those days. So it's kind of, so what is the project? Completely un tail. I'm just curious because I feel like there's been similar projects like this and it just depending on who funded

01:19:37.620 - 01:19:52.120

it as to how, what extent it went to. I'm just slightly curious, I think the reason was when some of the our supervisor were talking a while ago. They noticed that the Houston is the only major city in the United States. Doesn't, that doesn't have a

01:19:52.129 - 01:20:13.759

Asian American history archive. So that's why they started this program to really uh record your memories and preserve it for later generations of people who want to study this and use this to develop something use over the community and for their personal development. Yeah. Um I

01:20:13.770 - 01:20:30.359

think they based it on labor and capital because I think there were other history archives that dealt with other objects. And so I think labor and capital was just their main and we are the inaugural interviewer interns. So I think they're going to do a lot

01:20:30.370 - 01:20:54.100

more with this and I think, yeah, it's just to preserve whatever memories you have um for later generations of people for their benefit. Mhm Yeah. Just, I don't know, they don't really tell us much. I mean, they tell us the general idea and kind of help

01:20:54.109 - 01:21:13.209

them. I don't know, they might use it for. Oh, I'm just curious. Uh Do you, did you all do your own questions or someone help you with your own questions, our own research and make up questions, think good questions. I'm just being curious for natural when

01:21:13.220 - 01:21:32.720

we get in just interview you for now. So it natural curiosity what we're gonna use this for. Yeah. Well, I think the reason I was curious only because there have been some other similar projects and you know, in and I was just wondering were they elaborating

01:21:32.729 - 01:21:46.220

or expanding on the old projects or they're looking at it from a different angle? You know, that sort of thing? I was just being curious, I think they're trying to gather all the information, like I think uh has some kind of archive but I think Rice

01:21:46.229 - 01:22:02.930

is trying the Child Center is trying to absorb everything put into one place um to have the provide easier access for the information for other people, for the people around us. I think that's their purpose because like you said, there are probably um small cases of

01:22:02.939 - 01:22:18.970

um or professionals doing this kind of work, but it's never been, it's never been disorganized. So I think they're trying to absorb everything and make it into a really an archive of information for people. I think it's great. It's a great project. Uh I think if

01:22:18.979 - 01:22:34.580

you track a lot um community involvement, I think that makes a big difference. And I think before you, I don't know if you remembered it probably you wouldn't. But, you know, Asians aren't used to volunteering. That is not something that's in our nature to go and

01:22:34.589 - 01:22:53.470

volunteer and for them to learn to do volunteer work. It's been, I think just a great, it's a great growth that they have learned to do that because before, like I said, they only stayed within their own communities and for them to learn to volunteer and

01:22:53.479 - 01:23:08.759

help others. I think it's great. It is probably something that happened probably within the last 20 years or so because before that, it just, it was there but no one really look for you to come out and help and do things and it's kind of nice

01:23:08.770 - 01:23:24.520

that you can have a problem. You can call somebody that will be there or put you in touch with the right resources and we didn't have that. Yeah, just having that network makes a difference. Do you see a difference between like people who grew up in

01:23:24.529 - 01:23:41.200

the States or in Americas versus those who came later? Probably in the sense? Uh The ones that were here probably got involved a little earlier, the others, if you're immigrants at first, you know, the main thing is to get their family settled, make sure they have

01:23:41.209 - 01:24:01.859

a secure home and then when their kids are in school or whatever, then they'll, but a lot of probably immigrants today are probably not as, you know, um economically challenged as they were in the earlier years. So they may get in the system a little bit

01:24:01.870 - 01:24:16.979

earlier. But as you all know, from immigrants, it's always been economics before they can. And that may be the reason why Asians were a little bit slower at getting in the process because it was economics and you know, try and get their family settled, get them

01:24:16.990 - 01:24:35.089

in school. That was the big, what do you see in your young years of observation? I think I'm kind of biased since my family is where my dad is really traditional and he teaches traditional values. But I've been here for like most of my life. I

01:24:35.100 - 01:24:53.720

moved here when I was three. So it's kind of conflicting sometimes when you want to go one way. I know it's hard, it's hard when you have family that has those traditional uh values and they want certain things. And so sometimes you have to be just

01:24:53.729 - 01:25:09.229

a little bit headstrong and just say no, this is what uh say I'm listening to you. I'm not disrespecting you. But, and I think I ran across a young woman the other day. She's 30 she's having to do things because her family wants her to do

01:25:09.240 - 01:25:23.149

it, not because she wants to do it. And I said, look, you're gonna have to take a step back. But I also understand she is terribly conflicted and uh some, sometimes you just have to be a little bit of heads around to, I know it's not

01:25:23.160 - 01:25:39.149

easy being conflict, especially if there's traditional values. It really is. And uh it's not easy but think of it. He's already that you go to Rice University. That's already a step in the right direction. Well, I'm from Houston. So my house is like three miles away.

01:25:43.270 - 01:25:58.250

Well, that's because probably to him that is the uh epitome of what what are, you know, you reach the pinnacle, you get to go to Rice University. I mean, to them, that's a big accomplishment. I don't care how far, or how close she lived to the

01:25:58.259 - 01:26:14.330

place. That's a big accomplishment to them. And that's something they can be very proud of. So, how did you end up a sophomore? Um, I pick that one. I mean, it's, it's a small school with, um, that's a good reason because I get a lot of

01:26:14.339 - 01:26:26.509

personal attention. Where did you go to school here? Uh Bill High School, we went to the same high school. Did you know each other? You know, a lot of classes together? But, um, I think the primary reason when they got because I never heard of the

01:26:26.520 - 01:26:42.779

college before, but they sent me a letter with them telling, telling me if you want to visit us, we'll buy you a plane ticket and there's a program diversity program for minority students and they paid for my ticket, plane ticket to Philadelphia. And like I stayed

01:26:42.790 - 01:26:57.270

in the dorms and really liked the school because people are really intelligent over there. Everybody is good at something and there's a lot of personal attention from professors. And one thing they said during one of those sessions was that, I mean, you go to a lot

01:26:57.279 - 01:27:11.200

of the larger school, Harvard there or something, you may go there for a lot of the famous professors on. But so undergrad student, you may not even see them at all because they're really there for the graduate students. So for a smaller arts college, like it's

01:27:11.209 - 01:27:25.620

really good because we don't have a graduate program. So any money we have, it's focused solely on the undergrad students. So we get a lot more resources than a lot of the larger universities. And also if we want to access some of the, I think the

01:27:25.629 - 01:27:38.560

bigger programs, the broader programs, University of Pennsylvania was, it's like 20 minutes away and we can slide courses from there. So in this way, I think I get the person to attend Chinese as an undergrad student. That's the professor is really going to help me develop

01:27:38.569 - 01:27:51.009

my personal interest, my career and et cetera. And if I need to, I can access information at U Penn, et cetera. So I, I think I'm getting a pretty good education. Well, I think it is and, you know, with the class that small, especially when at

01:27:51.020 - 01:28:04.009

rice, you all get the bottom, you'll keep touch with each other for years and years and years. I think it's great. You know, I think it's the same way when we went to uh church back in those days, we all knew each other and we bonded

01:28:04.020 - 01:28:16.950

and we see each other and, you know, you can say I can call them up, you know, that sort of thing. So I think it's great you've been. So I think just anything to expand the horizon, to new experiences for you and cold weather for you

01:28:16.959 - 01:28:28.859

too. Yes, I like colder weather. Ok. So anything else you think of something? Just give me a holler? All right. Thank you very much. You talking to us. You're welcome.