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So Today is July 16. And we are here today with Mr. H.C. Chang, a civil litigation attorney with 19 years of legal experience who was based here in Houston, Texas.

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My name is Ashley Tsang. And I want to start off by asking, so where and when were you born? I was born on September 2, 1976 in Taipei City in Taiwan. It's, you know, it's quite a while

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ago so obviously I don't remember everything. My early memories started only when I was three or four years or so of age. My-my, my mom gave birth to me when I was in Taiwan, obviously, but

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they later told me that they, my parents were going to school in Washington DC at the time--they actually took me as a baby to spend quite a bit of time in in Washington DC, which I had no recollection of

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whatsoever. My early childhood memory really begin, I think when I was age three or four in a small apartment in, not in Taipei City, but Taipei county, on the, in the northern part of Taiwan.

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How would you describe the household that you grew up in? The house I grew up in, you know, you call it a house. But you know, in American standard, it's really more like an apartment, or sort of a high rise.

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There's no, there's no yard, which is one thing I-I learned by surprise once I actually moved here. It's-it's not huge, but it was, you know, sufficient enough room for my parents, me, my brother, and my grandmother who lived with us

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for a long time. It's, you know, I-I can talk to you quite a bit about my childhood memories if you want me to go there. But I grew

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up in a city called Yonghe, spell Y-O-N-G-H-E. I was told when I was growing up there that it was, in terms of population density, it's one of the top two or three places in the world in terms of population

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density. It competed with Bangladesh as one of the most densely populated places in the world. And I guess for most people in the northern part of Taiwan, you grew up in cities, and cities, meaning

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buildings right next to each other. It's—There's just a lot of people crammed into a relatively small period-- uh small acreage of land in that area. So how would you compare like, this kind of like, dense city to like Washington D.

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C.? Like how would you compare like the neighborhoods? Washington D. C. I, you know, I'm told that I've spent some time there when I was little. I have zero recollection of it. I-- my first recollection of Washington D.

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C. was in I think, the year of 2000 when, when I was in law school. Our law school, organize a-a trip to Washington DC for NAPABA,

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for the National Asian Pacific Bar Association there, and I got a chance to see Washington D. C. That-that was quite a place.

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I think overall, you know, the experience of growing up in Taiwan versus experience growing up in the United States is that first-first thing I noticed is that there are yards here in the US. Everybody has a yard.

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Everybody has a house. Everybody has space. Everybody can afford personal privacy. Everybody can afford room, and that that's a

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luxury that I did not have when I was growing up in Taiwan. There's-there's personal space, and you know, people maintain their space, you know, whether you like it or not. And then and then there are quite a number of

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things I-I was not expecting. You know, when I first moved here from Taiwan, I moved to, I moved here, to Houston, Texas, in 1991. I think was August 15, I want to say 1991, when I turned

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14. There are a number of things that you know that I immediately noticed that, you know, are things that we didn't have in Taiwan. For example, when you go out to eat at McDonald's, there's refills, you can get as much Coke or

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Sprite or whatever you want to drink to your heart—to your heart's delight, and I didn't understand that. You can, when you buy things, you can return things within 30 days, which is something I did not expect at

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all. I thought, you know, then why won't people just buy things and use it and then return and get their money back and, which turned out actually there's quite a number of people doing that. There's-there's a lot of cars.

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I'm used to seeing cars but not this many cars. And-and I didn't understand that you can't go anywhere, you know, at least not in Texas, you can't really go anywhere without cars. And then other things like, you know, credit

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cards are widely used. I use credit card multiple times a day, and nobody really asked me to, nobody really asked to compare signature on the credit card.

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Nobody ever questions, you know, whether I'm this person, you know, I'm the rightful owner of the credit card, things like that. These are, you know, moving to United States, not only are you learning a different language, you're also learning a

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different system of how the society functions, and then there's just a completely different system. You know, there's more trust being placed on people. At least here in the United States, people you know,

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people assume that when you tell them things, it's, you know, you meant what you say, which, you know, which I thought that that's, that's great. And another thing, you know, I

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know we only have limited time today. One other thing that I didn't, I wasn't used to is when you go out to eat at restaurants, you actually have to tip. You leave 10, 15, 20% of tip.

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And, you know, my first years here, I was not used to that concept because in Taiwan or in, you know, rest of Asia or most parts of the world, you know, service was supposed to be provided as part of employment, you're not supposed to pay for it

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separately. So that was not accustomed to, you know, which I think some people say, “Hey, Asian folks are less likely to tip.” Well, yeah, that's not part of the culture.

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You know, I think-I think Asian folks are more used to a different-different concepts, but you know, I know I go on and on but these are a number of things that come to mind, the differences I've noticed once I had a chance to come to United States, Quite a few!

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So what were some of the values that your parents emphasized while you are growing up? So I think this is probably common to a lot of folks in, especially in the East Asian, Confucian culture. School, your studies, those are,

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you know, the number one things that your parents expect of you. They don't really put a lot of emphasis on all the other things that the American education system address. Schools, studies, testing, grades are the, you know,

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what defines you as a student in a lot of Asian education system. Here, you know, there's-there's more variety, you know. Sports, music, you know, extracurricular activities.

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One thing, you know, I'll tell you I-I know I sound old but I was—I finished middle school before moving here. My last two years in middle school in Taiwan, I wiould go to school at

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7am in the morning. I will come home at about 8 or 9 pm at night. I will spend the entire day in school. That was how it was like.

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I would go to school every single day, meaning Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. You get Sunday afternoon off, but you still go to school Sunday morning. But for two years I went to school every single day.

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You get you get a couple of days off for important holiday. Important holiday being the new year, the Chinese New Year. That that's it. But otherwise you go to school every single day.

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Versus when first came here, I started high school. I went to school about 7-ish and then school goes to recess about 2:20, 2:30 in the afternoon. And so my first day in

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high school, school is over at 2:30. And I thought, "Where's everybody going?" You know, "You are done with school this early?" And "How would you ever learn anything?" So that was something that, you

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know, I wasn't used to. But then, you know, we realized, studying or testing or memorizing the correct answer isn't all there is to learning or isn’t all there is-is to

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education. So the things that I've learned from an educational perspective that I learned from my parents or learned from the society in general, those things aren't necessarily applicable to-to, you know, education

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here, which I, you know, I am, I'll tell you, I'm glad because the Asian education system that I went through was very strict, very, you know, very demanding, versus I feel the education system

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here provides much more freedom to the individual student. So I hope that answered your question. Yeah, for sure. Um, so then do you feel like, there's like switch from this Asian American education system to the American education system, did your parents also have

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a change in mindset to how you approach your studies as well then, or, like encouraged you to take on extracurriculars? They didn't really understand the American education system. They just, you know, they want me to

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do-do well. You know, the grading system in Taiwan, for example, I can tell you, when I was in middle school, we have quizzes or tests every single day. Three, four a day.

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So you know, so I was accustomed to that. And then versus you know, going to high school, starting high school here. You know, you-you don't have as many reading assignments, you don't have as many quizzes or

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tests. You know, I still remember vividly to this day, my first year attending high school here. I didn't have to study math, for one full year. I opened the math algebra textbook, and I thought to myself, "This is high school

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math?" I learned this in middle school in Taiwan. So you know, so-so that's, that's different. But in terms of, you know, what's-- I—Well, let me let

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me just say this. I, you know, so a lot of people have criticisms of the different of the Asian education system. There's a lot of people who feel that that education system is more interested in test scores

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and, you know, training people to take tests, versus the American education system. Here really makes a person, an individual out of one. You know, what's better? I'll tell you, I-I prefer the American education system because

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it is more liberating. It has a lot more freedom. What is what is better for a person? That, you know, I'll-I'll have to let the educational

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specialists tell us that. So I know like most like Chinese schools teach English, but did you still have like, a kind of like shock, or language shock when you came to the US? I did. So English was a, was a

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compulsory course that everybody, every student had to take in Taiwan. So you know, I-I took English. But when you say, or I say, you learned English in school, that means they teach you things that can be tested on like, you know, grammar, you know,

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spelling, you know, write a short paragraph, write an essay, things that can be graded on, you know. It's not so much as

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teaching you how to use this language in real life. Here, you know, in, you know, how do you interact with a, a, you know, an English speaker. So I quickly realized the stuff I learned in books don't

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necessarily prepare me for interaction with folks here in the US. But I think-I think fortunately I, you know, I learned quite a bit about English, about how to apply it from watching television. And I can tell

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you I watch a lot of Sesame Street's, as a high schooler, and I thought that was a great, great educational program. I still remember, you know, it's probably before your time. You look like real, really young.

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I used to watch this show called Beverly Hills 9O21O. That was the show that all the cool kids watched. I watched a lot of sitcoms. And you know, I learned how to-how to speak English, and how to

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interact with society from-from these television shows. So, you know, so I don't know if you ever heard the Beverly Hills 9O2O1, or shows, you know, back in the days. On Fridays, they—channel 13, ABC they used to

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have what's called "TGIF." They would they have all these shows, they would start with, I think Family Matters with Steve Urkel. That's probably way before your time as well.

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They have, what's that show with Bob Saget, the family in San Francisco. I can't remember the name of that show right now. But that that

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was my gateway to learning the values, learning how things are done here in the United States. And then I will also learn what you see on television is not necessarily real life. So it's a-it's a long learning

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process to learn how to, I guess, assimilate and integrate into the society. And again, I know I digress, but I hope I answered your question. Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit more about the college you attended?

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So I went to a University of Texas in Austin, which I was, you know, it's, you know, Hook ‘em Horns. It's, it's—I still remember, I still remember to this day, you know,

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how anxious I felt about, you know, making it to UT. Because UT, you know, in my opinion is, is the greatest public school in the entire state.

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I know Aggies may disagree with that, but who cares? You know, and so if coming to United States was sort of a liberating experience, relative to the experience I had in Taiwan, going to college is

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an even more eye-opening experience in that there's even more freedom, you know. I didn't live with my- my parents or my, you know, my family while I attended college in Austin. And Austin, I don't know if

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you're familiar with Austin, I imagine you may have been there a time or two, but going to school in Austin is a very, very free, liberal city. And, you know, being there alone by yourself, without any authority over you, it's, it's an opportunity for you to grow

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up on your own. And I, you know, I still remember a number of folks I've met in my freshman year at UT in Austin. Some of the folks were too— They enjoyed their freedom without any-any restraint, unfortunately, and they didn't,

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they didn't last very long. But I met some of my best friends to this day in UT. And maybe, maybe I need to give you a little bit of a bit of background.

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So-so in my generation, in the 90s, there was a wave of young, you know, either teenage or middle school to high school folks from Taiwan who-whose parents

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brought them here in the United States for either high school or college. There's a term for it that's called 小留学生in Chinese, meaning young students, young overseas students.

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It's not one or two. There's-there's got to be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of other guys and girls like me, who, you know, who were raised in Asian culture and who were dropped

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off-- A lot of time, some-some people have their parents with them, some people do not have their parents with them. And, you know, people like me, people, you know, with similar backgrounds, we seek each other out. We you know, we are companions to each other.

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We understand what is what it is like to have to learn a different language, a different culture. And you know, not having parents who understand how things work here in the United States.

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And we rely on each other to grow up and to figure things out on our own. So in that context, I met a lot of folks who are like me who, you know who originally from Taiwan, you know, in, either in

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Houston or in Austin, and especially when I was in Austin. There were a lot of folks who, who, you know, they don't need to say anything, and they already understand the things I had to go through. We have a common background.

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We have a common culture. We have the common language. Not just, you know, Chinese or English, but we, we understand each other. And obviously we band together.

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And, you know, to this to this day, I still have some of my best friends who had that kind of experience as I did. And then, then Austin is just great. I went there. I went back to Austin four times last year.

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Two of the times were not voluntary. But I'll tell you that later. Austin is a great place. It, you know, in college is an

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experience that allows you to see things through your own eyes without authority, without somebody else, you know, telling you how to see things. And so that that was an enormously liberating experience as

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well. And I'm happy to tell you more about, you know, my thoughts on college and things like that, but, you know, I like to hear what you know, you'd like to know. Um, so like, I know that like, they were one of your biggest support, support systems, like knowing people who had similar experiences to you, but were there any other

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organizations out there that also supported like, um, the difficulties you had, like, you know, transitioning? Sure. So-so I went to church. There there's a, I think it's called the Chinese Bible study that I

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attended. And then there was also a student organization back then it was called TUSA, the Taiwanese Undergraduate Student Association. And then, you know, there's also the Chinese Student Association. There's, you know, all kinds of Asian student associations that I joined.

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You meet people through these organizations. You-you venture out, you know. Of course, there's, there's drinking involved, and then, they're, you know—Looking-looking back, we were or, you know, we were

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college age, but we're all just kids. We have no idea what is going on. But these organizations, you meet a lot of great people in these organizations, and a lot of people just-just kind of, you

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know, they become your friends. They become your peers. They help you. They provide their experience to you. And then, you know, you wouldn't be a

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true Taiwanese person, unless you karaoke a time or two back then. So there was karaoke joint, called the Hunan Palace, where everybody goes on the weekends. You would go there, and people would sing.

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People would eat there, and people would socialize. And through the socialization process, you meet other people. You hear their experiences. You extend your circle.

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And that's, you know, that that was things, that's the thing that everybody did back in the days. But these-these organizations, you know, similar to what we're doing today, they provide a social context.

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They, you know, they help you meet people. They help you, you know, you know, you know, Maslow's hierarchy, there's the different levels of need that a person has. But you know, there's self-actualization.

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There's social needs, and you kind of fulfill these needs, you know, through your extended circle. Oh, and then there were two fraternities, two Asian fraternities. One's the Lambdas, and one's the Omegas, and

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the—I think the Omegas, was just— They were just started a year or two before I went to UT. They may have started the year I went there. And just, you know, just young Asian guys trying to prove themselves.

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You know, and again, the things we--the things that the Asian guys did back then are pretty silly. We-we do things to try to make us look-look badder than we really are.

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There's street racing and then people, you know, people, some people try to pretend they were in a gang to make them look badder than they really were. In reality, we're all college students that wanted

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street credit and—some people, some people figured out way to make them look really bad with, you know, things they do. But in reality, looking back, we were-we were just college students trying to, try and to

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try to impress girls, trying to look tougher than we really were. Were most fraternities kind of trying to look bad together or was it like mainly the Asian American ones that were focused on that aspect?

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I think the-I think the Asian ones especially wanted to, you know, wanted to, want an affirmation. You know, I'm sure you understand Asians, you know, are considered, you know, we're the peaceful. We're the soft.

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We're the compliant culture. And we're nice people. And then obviously, when you're in a more rebellious stage in your life, you feel, you know, "I'm going to be different.

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I'm going to be the tough Asian gangster," you know. And I'm glad to say that 99% of people that I knew who, who tried to be Asian gangsters, did not become Asian gangsters. They ended up, you know, most people graduated

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from college and found careers and started their family. Didn't, you know, for example, do massive crimes like you see in movies and things like that. But, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these things were

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certainly, you know, just things that people did to find validation, especially in a young age. You know, back then people used to—It used to be the, the cars. For example, there's the Acura Integra.

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There's the Toyota Celica. There's the Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi, I forgot what car it is. But people who can afford those cars would get those cars, and they would suit them up.

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And they would occasionally race around. I don't think you can drive those into campus, but they will race around campus or on weekends, you know, or guys who managed to find, you know, some-some alcohol and they

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will use those as status symbols, or as ways to impress, you know, girls in sororities. But you know, I suspect that's what, you know, a lot of a lot of young guys wanted to do is to, you know, to look tough

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and to impress girls, which I am sure that's what motivates a lot of society, not just Asian societies, but a lot of societies in general. Are there fraternities in Rice? No. Okay. Just residential colleges that are sort of

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fraternities. Mhm. Okay. How do you think like the Asian community, especially in the UT Austin, do you feel like it's changed over time then?

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In like, their values? I think, I think the Asian community as I understand, so, you know, so there's the, there's the local Asian community, and then there's people who go to college and, you know, we don't necessarily have roots in Austin.

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There's an Asian society. And, you know, now there's, you know, back, they didn't have it back then, but now there's a Chinatown in Austin, and then there's a lot of great, you know, Chinese restaurants and tea shops and things like that, that we didn't have.

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We had a handful of Chinese restaurants back in the days. And, you know, in terms of interaction with the-the local community, I think I had an opportunity to do that by attending,

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you know, the Bible study from time to time, Bible study host potlucks, and things like that, where we have an opportunity to interact with, you know, local Christian groups and things like that.

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And that's, that's how we got to know the real local community. So, you know, so I-I did get a chance to meet a number of folks who are native to Austin that I think-I think, you know, my experience there is more about interacting with folks similar to

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me; we're from Houston. I think people from Houston stuck together. People from Dallas stuck together. And then you know, and then—Overall, people got to

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know each other, and we kind of gradually melted into one big pot of, you know, Asians. So in college, what subjects were you most interested in studying? Like, were you always an economics major?

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I-I actually wanted to go into Finance at one point. I, you know, I didn't-I didn't quite get there. And I, you know, so-so back then, you know, which again is way before your time, college tuition was crazy

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expensive back then. At a, you know, when I was in UT, I paid a shocking $4,000 a semester for tuition back-back then. I say shocking, you know, I say that facetiously, because I know it's much more

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expensive nowadays. I tell that to my roommate, who's a Caucasian guy, who's a local, I had to pay an international student price because you know, I was from Taiwan. So I paid $4,000.

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My college roommate said he paid $1,000 a semester for tuition in college in UT. This was 1995, just so that you know. We had it-we had it good back then.

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And he was shocked that I paid four times as much as he did. So, so the objective—So obviously, you know, my dad was paying for it. At a time I, you know, I didn't I didn't really have a job back then.

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My dad was paying for the time, so, you know, he wanted me to graduate as soon as possible. I graduated in three years, because I took a lot of summer schools. I took every summer school there is to take.

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I took every winter course there's to take. I took all the basic courses like Government, English, and something else I can't remember.

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I got all those out the away from community colleges. I took all those and I was out in, in—I graduate—I went I went in 1995. I graduated

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in 1998. Economics, I will tell you, which is probably true to a lot of folks, we, a lot of my teachers, professors, adjuncts are incredibly intelligent, well written, well researched folks.

00:29:24.600 - 00:29:34.630

I'm embarrassed to say that I remember very little from what I learned in those several years. And don't laugh, I promise you, that will be what you experience in a couple of years.

00:29:37.100 - 00:29:46.970

I still, but-but I will say this. I enjoyed learning about the subject matter of economics. It helps paves the way for you to understand how the society works.

00:29:47.350 - 00:30:00.550

And obviously the society we live in is an incredibly complex society. You learn basic principles. You learn concepts, which kind of helps you understand and navigate a lot of things that, you know, you, you see in

00:30:00.550 - 00:30:15.990

the news today, you know, you read about the trade war today. And a lot of rhetorics, I thought to myself, "Gosh, you know, all these trade war talk, I learned in ECON 301 or 302, back in 1995, as a first year

00:30:16.040 - 00:30:33.080

economics major." And I know the person on television saying all these beings has no idea what he's talking about because I remembered that from my textbook. Or, you know, you kind of you kind of try to— In economics, it's about the study of human behavior, like a lot of other

00:30:33.790 - 00:30:43.520

sciences. You can call it a science. But through this process, you kind of understand human behavior. You kind of understand why things,

00:30:43.830 - 00:30:58.240

you know, why people do certain things. If I have a choice to do it over again, I think I will probably still choose economics. Maybe, maybe a different discipline of... Economics is pretty diverse, there's all kinds

00:30:58.450 - 00:31:05.120

of different branches of economics. There's labor economics. There's monetary. There's-there's all kinds

00:31:05.120 - 00:31:20.410

of different branches. I think it's a fascinating field. I would encourage everybody, you know, whether you have an opportunity to go to this field or not, at least take macroeconomics, microeconomics, it will

00:31:20.410 - 00:31:34.720

help you understand the world much, much better. How's—how has economics kind of influenced your decision to become a lawyer? It has none. I, yeah, it—These are just two things that just happened, you know?

00:31:35.450 - 00:31:47.050

Or maybe, you know, my, my—I like to tell people my mom was an economics major. My dad was a law major back in Taiwan.

00:31:48.020 - 00:32:00.040

So you know, I tried to do what my parents did. I study economics in college, and I study law in law school. But you know, graduating from college in three years,

00:32:00.040 - 00:32:12.870

you know, you get-you got to figure out something else to do. You can go find a job, or you can keep, you know, keep going to school. I-I thought I was still pretty young guy, I think I needed more schooling. And I was accepted to

00:32:12.870 - 00:32:22.840

University of Houston, so Cougs. Go Cougs. So-so law school, and I started there in 1998. And I finished in 2001. And that was a completely different experience as

00:32:25.610 - 00:32:36.230

well. But go ahead. Um, what were some of the extracurriculars that you were involved in, in University of Houston law school, and like UT Austin? Did you say, intra or extra?

00:32:36.710 - 00:32:50.320

Extracurriculars. I, you know, I-I, I don't know if drinking counts, but you know, I did. I did a bit of that. But you know, I'm not sure if this should be part of the interview.

00:32:50.320 - 00:33:05.830

Or maybe we can edit that out or not. Socializing, karaoke. I'm embarrassed to, not embarrassed to admit actually, karaoke is a very important social tool, especially in the Asian circle.

00:33:05.830 - 00:33:21.800

I think, I did—You know, one thing that always interested me was martial art. I took kung fu. And that's something I still do, you know, helped me pass in time from time to time. And I did a lot of

00:33:22.000 - 00:33:36.630

reading. And I did a lot of, you know, surprisingly, I actually learned more Chinese in the United States than I did in Taiwan. I learned more about the culture aspect of the

00:33:36.690 - 00:33:49.740

Chinese culture in the United States than Taiwan. I learned more kung fu in the United States than I did Taiwan. I- I never learned any kung fu. I actually learned here in the United States, from my, from my teacher,

00:33:49.790 - 00:34:04.120

Master Ernie Wu here in Houston. I learned to speak some Taiwanese, which is a dialect in Taiwan. I actually learned to speak some here in the United States. I learned some Cantonese.

00:34:04.190 - 00:34:11.930

I learned some-- a little bit of Korean. I learned a little bit about other Asian culture. I learned more about Asian culture in the United States than I did in Taiwan.

00:34:13.040 - 00:34:29.780

Because one thing about United States is that it is a culturally diverse melting pot, you know, that allows, that allows you an opportunity to interact with all walks of life. And then obviously, there's Asian culture and

00:34:29.780 - 00:34:48.450

there's, you know, all kinds of different culture. I, you know, I-I don't think I would have had the opportunity to be, to interact with all these other cultures if I never came here. And then, you know, you're asked about extracurricular

00:34:48.450 - 00:35:03.350

activities. I, you know, so there's the benefit I had, you know, living in Houston is we have what's called a Chinese—It's used to be called a Chinese Cultural Center. It's a-it's a kind of an entity sponsor by the government of Taiwan.

00:35:04.260 - 00:35:18.180

They, you know, they provide and the Culture Center we have here to you know, in Houston, I'm told it’s the largest of its kind in the entire world. So the, so Taiwan wants to take care

00:35:18.180 - 00:35:29.230

of its overseas compatriots. And there-there are a lot of folks from Taiwan, I'm sure you've heard, here in the United States.

00:35:29.380 - 00:35:42.550

And the government has all these programs, for example, they have a pretty decent sized library that has hundreds of thousands of volumes of books. I-I-I remember I used to read four books a day.

00:35:42.550 - 00:35:55.690

The reason why I read 4 books a day is because you can check out four books a day back in, back in the days, and, you know, growing up, I would just go to the Chinese Culture Center, and check out four books, and read them as much as I could.

00:35:55.990 - 00:36:13.020

Because like I mentioned before, when school is over at 2:30, then what are you gonna do for the rest of the day, right? So I read, and I read, and I read, and I enjoy a lot of poetry reading. You know, that was a time when I just memorized a lot of Chinese poetry, and, you

00:36:13.600 - 00:36:28.360

know, so-so the things I got to do even in college, or even in law school was actually, you know, get more familiarized with the Chinese culture. And, you know, and I guess

00:36:30.460 - 00:36:45.330

that that's, that's all that comes to mind at this point. So thinking back to your time in college, like what were some of your most defining moments? Defining moments? Um, I think, you know, I

00:36:45.530 - 00:37:01.580

remember finishing my first year, in college, I went to visit my good friend, Billy Chen. So, you know, I think I was 18 or close to 19 at the point. Billy Chen pulled out a case of beer and say, "Hey, have you ever had one of these

00:37:01.580 - 00:37:13.700

before?" And I said, "What are these?" And I think those were, those were Budweiser. And he said, "Hey, let's you know, let's-let's drink" like-like, what everybody else in in Austin, Texas was doing the time.

00:37:14.180 - 00:37:26.850

So I quickly learned that I was allergic to beer at the time. I did not know that, because the next day I woke up with red rashes on my body I realized, "Oh, wow, drinking was not as, as fun

00:37:28.340 - 00:37:46.850

as all these commercials, you know, made it look like it was.” I don't think there was a moment or a, you know, a period of time where I would say, "Hey, that changed my life" or "Hey, that was, you know, looking back that, you know, shaped my

00:37:46.850 - 00:37:59.440

personality." I think it was a very gradual process. You, first of all, you know, the values you learn in Taiwan is different than the values here. And then the values you learn in high school is different from

00:37:59.440 - 00:38:12.990

the values you learned in college. If in high school, it was still okay to be obedient, to follow what your teacher tells you, in college, you know, doing what you're told is not considered cool.

00:38:14.010 - 00:38:28.480

And-and then, you know, learning to be free spirited. Learning to be you know, independent over, you know—Not-not overnight but over a period

00:38:28.480 - 00:38:44.620

of three years. Learning how to, you know, how to pay bills, which you know, may sound simple now but balancing your checkbook is, was difficult. I, you know, again you know I know this may be a little,

00:38:44.880 - 00:39:01.450

sounds a little old for you, but I used to live off of $200 a month, you know. That, and that doesn't obviously doesn't cover dorm or apartment rental. That's just, you know, everything you want to spend

00:39:01.450 - 00:39:12.230

on. $200. That's it! I have- I had a friend who lived with his sister and their monthly-- I'm sorry, their weekly expenses is $20.

00:39:12.630 - 00:39:24.530

I don't know how they managed to survive off of $20 a week, but things were different back in the 90s. My next question kind of goes back into like college acceptances. Do you feel like there was any sort

00:39:24.530 - 00:39:41.840

of bias against Asian American applicants in like these elite, higher education systems? I would say there is. Similar to, you know, similar—And that's a, that's an issue that we're still seeing today. So, you know, as Asians, our experienced is probably gonna be different

00:39:41.900 - 00:39:50.630

from other minority groups. And that's, that's an issue. You know, there's a lot of controversy, and I know the Asian communities divided on that.

00:39:50.750 - 00:40:04.700

But I still remember, you know, I did, I did fairly well in my SAT. I did you know, fairly well in my LSAT. And that's the entrance exam for law school. I scored, I think 94th

00:40:04.700 - 00:40:17.300

percentile in my LSAT, and I-I applied for University of Texas Law School. I-I wasn't accepted. And then there were folks from, you know, other ethnic groups who scored

00:40:18.290 - 00:40:31.740

about 20 points below me in LSAT and they were accepted to UT Law School. You know, as a, as an applicant back then I felt, you know, I felt, you know, I understand the need for diversity, but, you know, it's, it seemed, it

00:40:31.740 - 00:40:44.460

seemed unfair to me at the time. Obviously, over time, you know, I know there's a lot of discussion, there's a lot of debate over this issue. I, you know, I feel affirmative action, you know,

00:40:45.000 - 00:41:02.640

as a lot of Asian folks feel, comes, you know, at an expense of Asian Americans. Do I feel affirmative action is beneficial for the country in general? I do. I do feel that colleges, universities, and

00:41:02.770 - 00:41:17.150

educational institutes would benefit by diversity, by being more inclusive, by have—by enlarging access to all racial and ethnic groups. I do feel that way. But, you know,

00:41:17.340 - 00:41:31.910

we also understand that as an Asian, that means you will have to do, you'll have to score much better, much higher in your GPA, in your LSAT scores, or your-your graduate school entrance exams.

00:41:33.670 - 00:41:49.880

Is that fair? I-I don't know. You tell me. It's a tough issue. Yeah. There's a, there's—I met a lot of people who feel very strongly about this situation, one way or

00:41:49.880 - 00:42:02.770

the other. There, there was a doctor, Dr. Pung, I believe, who did extensive research on the issue of diversity on college admission.

00:42:04.500 - 00:42:17.130

I didn't, you know, we—I'm a part of the OCA Greater Houston. We try to invite her to come to Houston to talk last year, but she wasn't available back then. I, you know, I can talk about this issue for the next hour and a half.

00:42:17.410 - 00:42:29.830

But I know that that's not, that's not the subject matter today. So we'll address that another day. Um, so kind of going into your career, what drew you to, to, to becoming like a civil litigation attorney in particular?

00:42:30.440 - 00:42:40.760

So, so, you know, kind of-kind of like, many parts of my life, I wasn't planning on doing that at first. I, you know, I wanted to do something else. When I was in law school, I thought I was going to do

00:42:40.760 - 00:42:55.030

international law, which, you know, the, your, your expectations, your, things you prepare yourself to do quickly changed once you actually graduate from school. And-And the stuff you do, actually, you know,

00:42:55.460 - 00:43:06.860

it changed. It just changed. So my first job, graduating from law school, the law firm, the first law firm, I worked at, the first lawyer I worked at, he did litigation. He did civil litigation.

00:43:07.030 - 00:43:23.970

So you know, so that's kind of what brought me into this field. And when you say civil litigation, civil litigation is pretty broad. You know, it's-it's a—You know, the first step

00:43:25.120 - 00:43:35.820

you took into this career is what kind of shapes you down the road as well. So I did some early civil litigation, civil litigation at the first firm I worked at. I did some litigation in the second law firm I worked at.

00:43:36.660 - 00:43:45.440

Different, different scope. I did more towards general litigation, the first, the first-first career. The second one was more towards maritime litigation, which

00:43:45.580 - 00:44:00.600

require more litigation in federal court, rather in a state court. And then my and then my third-third job, which is my current one that I started back in 2006, I want to say, it's more towards medical-related

00:44:00.600 - 00:44:13.800

litigation. They're all different but then they're-they're all very similar. You know, once you got used to this system in general, you kind of know how the system works. So you kind of know what to, what to

00:44:13.800 - 00:44:23.480

expect, how to apply the system, how to use the system. And that's, that's, that's what I've been doing for, let me see, this is 2020. Oh! 19 years.

00:44:23.480 - 00:44:38.840

Going on 20 next year. Um, what about your career are you most passionate about? I-I... One thing I'm, you know, I'm glad that I got to do in this job that I'm doing right now is you

00:44:38.840 - 00:44:52.220

actually get to help people. I know-I know, you hear that from time to time. And I know they actually joked about it in a, in a, you know, in medical school, you know, a

00:44:52.220 - 00:45:03.790

lot of medical school applicants, when they were filling out their applications, people will say "Why do you want to go to medical school?" And all people say, "We want to help people." And, and medical school reviewers will say, "Ha ha ha, you and

00:45:03.790 - 00:45:15.070

you know 5000 the other kids want to help people. What makes you different?" For me, I you know, I can tell you, I really got to help people. I represent. I'm on the plaintiff side, which

00:45:15.240 - 00:45:25.000

means I represent the people. I represent, you know, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic. I-I got a chance to

00:45:25.000 - 00:45:39.660

meet and speak with hundreds, if not thousands of people. I hear their-their problems. I hear their concerns. And I do, you know, like I said, I do medical litigation, which means I handle a

00:45:39.660 - 00:45:53.310

lot of medical malpractices. I can tell you, there are a lot of medical malpractices taking place every single day, throughout hospitals, clinics, throughout the entire state, throughout the entire country.

00:45:53.830 - 00:46:08.770

There's a study from Johns Hopkins University from a few years ago that estimates medical malpractice being one of the top causes of death, top, I think Medical malpractice.

00:46:08.770 - 00:46:22.100

Yeah, that study estimates about 250,000 people will die from medical malpractice per year. That estimate obviously was a little higher than from other studies I've seen, but I've seen studies estimating anywhere from

00:46:22.100 - 00:46:31.290

100 to 200 250,000 would people die per year due to medical malpractice. I got a chance to represent some of those people. And I can tell you, there are a lot of mistakes made.

00:46:31.860 - 00:46:46.750

And these things can ruin people's lives. Or there are other, other medical malpractices that do not kill people, but will paralyze people for the rest of their lives. I'm thankful, you know, that I have a

00:46:47.440 - 00:46:56.950

decent job that pays the bills. But I'm also thankful that there's a, you know, there's sort of ideas you know, again, like what Maslow said, self-actualization, that I

00:46:56.950 - 00:47:10.290

actually got a chance to help people. There's a gentleman in Dallas that I got a chance to help. And you know, during, throughout a lawsuit process. A lawsuit process can easily take two three years.

00:47:10.750 - 00:47:22.890

I received countless calls from him in the middle of night. You know, he called me when his car was being repossessed. His cars being repossessed because he couldn't work. He couldn't work because he became paralyzed from the waist

00:47:22.970 - 00:47:39.210

down. He became paralyzed from the waist down because this particular medical provider gave him medications that he should not have received. And because of clear and unquestionable medical malpractice,

00:47:39.650 - 00:47:53.330

this person who had four children and the, you know, relatively newly-wed life, his-his livelihood is ruined. And he wasn't, he was not able to care for himself. And he, he had a lot of pride in being the breadwinner

00:47:53.920 - 00:48:05.760

for his family. And now he lost everything. And we were able to, you know, through about two years of the litigation process, negotiate a pretty decent settlement for him to help him take care of himself, take

00:48:05.760 - 00:48:19.050

care of his family, take care of his wife. And, and you know, even though what's taken away from handle can never be restored, at least we're able to help him to gain some of the things that he's lost, back,

00:48:20.120 - 00:48:28.980

through monetary means. And then I can tell you quite a number of similar stories. There's, you know, there's a gentleman in Oklahoma that we were able to help.

00:48:29.570 - 00:48:47.190

There are several families in, you know, Northeast Houston, Northwest Houston that we were able to help through the things that we do. The Texas legal system is not particularly favorable to plaintiffs, especially not in the medical malpractice

00:48:47.190 - 00:49:05.070

setting. But I'm thankful that we were able to bring some help to these folks. And that's-that's one thing that I found fulfilling in doing what I do. And again, I know I talked too

00:49:05.070 - 00:49:18.300

much, you know, if you can give me a hand like blink three times or something, tell me I need to wrap it up, I'm more than happy to comply And also the 90 minute is not a hard deadline. You can, , as long as you want, or as

00:49:18.300 - 00:49:31.790

short as you want. Yeah, okay, yeah. I am, you know, I will do whatever you want. Um, so how has being fluent in Mandarin kind of impacted your job? Like has it opened up any opportunities or?

00:49:33.220 - 00:49:47.890

I, you know, I'll tell you this, I, you know, people used to say, "Hey H. C, you speak Chinese pretty fluently. You speak English.” You know, I would like to think I do, you know. “That must be advantageous for you in your job." I can tell you, so far, I haven't seen

00:49:47.890 - 00:50:04.290

a whole lot. I, that maybe because, in my work, vast majority of work that I do, don't involve the Chinese aspect. You know, my first several

00:50:04.290 - 00:50:19.220

years of practicing law, the one time that Chinese came in handy was the time when the senior partner and us, we all went out to lunch at the nearby Chinese cafe, and I ordered everything for everybody in Chinese fluently.

00:50:19.520 - 00:50:33.310

I think that impressed them. But other than that, it hasn't, hasn't really, you know, probably because of my particular line of work doesn't really require a whole lot of Chinese. I think, I

00:50:33.330 - 00:50:51.720

think in other you know, in the more social aspect, you know, that the-the Chinese speaking, helps some, hasn't, hasn't been a, you know, a necessary part of my work as of yet. Every once in a while, there, you

00:50:51.720 - 00:51:04.360

know, there's a potential, potential client who will call, who don't speak English, and speak some Chinese and I will, I'll be able to communicate with them, you know, that way. But in terms of, for example, you

00:51:04.360 - 00:51:19.620

know, when I go to court, when I write a motion, when I, you know, argue a case, haven't, haven't used it a whole lot just yet. But one day, one day maybe, you know, maybe something else would, you know,

00:51:19.810 - 00:51:33.730

require my Mandarin speaking ability. We shall see. Um, so in light of this pandemic, have you taken on any case is kind of related to the Coronavirus in any way? Actually we have not.

00:51:33.820 - 00:51:47.280

And-and so one thing that our firm discussed and that we decided on is we are not taking any cases, you know, medical malpractice cases related to COVID-19. And we did that for a reason.

00:51:47.690 - 00:52:02.350

So, you know, you to this day, today is July 15, or is July 16, or—Today's July 16, actually. So, you know, ever since the virus first erupted towards the end of December in 2019, to this day, you know,

00:52:02.350 - 00:52:15.600

it's been about six to seven months almost, and us as mankind, we still understand very little about this virus. And initially, you know, I will say, I don't think anybody really expected this virus to go out of

00:52:15.600 - 00:52:29.370

hand like, like the way it did. I don't think Dr. Fauci, you know, knew that this was going to be this bad back in January or February, much less the average person, much less your, you know, average medical providers here in Houston or elsewhere.

00:52:30.760 - 00:52:43.300

We, you know, so there, you know, I read it somewhere that 40% of the mortality took place in nursing homes. And then there were a lot of mortalities, you know, here and there. You know,

00:52:44.420 - 00:52:59.280

usually that, you know, standard medical malpractice is that the medical providers can't meet the standard of care in providing optimal care or you know, you provide ordinary care or reasonable

00:52:59.280 - 00:53:19.210

care to the patient, and you can always make an argument that they could have done more to prevent the spread of Coronavirus to-to their patient, but our firm feel that it is not, it's not fair to require or to expect that medical providers to understand the transmission

00:53:19.210 - 00:53:32.980

of Coronavirus on such a large and massive scale. So our firm purposefully decided that we-we understand that the medical providers throughout the country are doing the best they can to address this virus, and it's not fair

00:53:34.250 - 00:53:48.870

to go after them, to speak in a legal purs— legal sense. So, you know, so our firm is not—I'm sure there are other firms out there who do that, but you know, we, we want to be as reasonable as

00:53:48.870 - 00:54:02.650

we can in dealing with this virus. Out of the cases that you have represented to date, do any particular ones stand out where maybe like racial injustice seems to be a factor? Racial injustice?

00:54:02.770 - 00:54:16.360

I wouldn't say that and so, so my-my perspective of that, you know, my perspective on that may be a little different from, you know, for some for some other folks. I, you know, I first came,

00:54:16.450 - 00:54:32.910

like I said, I first came to Houston in 1991; I experienced little to no racial discrimination that I can tell. I experienced little to no overt racism that I can think of.

00:54:33.660 - 00:54:46.110

The one example that I can think of actually took place in Austin, my first year in college. I was walking on the street, it's called Guadalupe. It's the a, it's

00:54:46.110 - 00:55:00.770

the main street for UT. There's a lot of folks, you know, students or there used to be a lot of homeless folks on that street. I still remember walking down that street, and just one Caucasian guy walked up to

00:55:00.770 - 00:55:13.940

me and look at me and say, "Hey, why don't you go back to your country?" And I was shocked, and you know, I had no idea why he would randomly approached me, and because I've never met that person.

00:55:13.940 - 00:55:25.690

I've never—I didn't say anything to him. And I had no idea of what triggered that that reaction. But that was my only experience that I would say, you know, constitutes

00:55:26.250 - 00:55:37.890

racial motivated challenges. But can we pause for a second? I have something to address at seven. I will-- that will take me maybe five or six minutes.

00:55:38.260 - 00:55:46.590

I will be right back. Yeah, no problems. Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. I'll be right back. No problem. Hello, I am back. Sorry, by the way. No problems.

00:55:47.830 - 00:56:02.740

Okay. So I think we were discussing, I guess, the racial injustice aspect. I don't think I would say I experienced a whole lot overt racism, you know, could they, could there have been

00:56:02.740 - 00:56:16.630

something done behind my back without me knowing? That's absolutely possible. I would say, you know, in maybe Houston is-is different relative to other places in the country.

00:56:17.180 - 00:56:31.860

The terrible things you read about, you know, like, back in March, there's a, there's a family in Midland, Texas who were attacked by, you know, some guy who thought they were there to spread Coronavirus because they were, they

00:56:31.860 - 00:56:41.570

were Asian, and they were not even Chinese. I-I have never experienced something like that. So I guess I'm probably more fortunate, relative to most other people.

00:56:43.390 - 00:56:57.180

The-the high school I went to was very diverse. And this was in 1991. We had pretty much every ethnic group. And the college I went to, UT, was obviously very diverse

00:56:57.180 - 00:57:13.420

as well. So I guess I feel, I feel relatively more fortunate that you know, I don't have a whole lot of negative experience in that regard. I will share with you, on the other hand, in my line of

00:57:13.470 - 00:57:29.010

work, it's predominantly Caucasian. I can tell you there—You know, and things obviously change over time. When I first start practicing law in 2001, you

00:57:29.130 - 00:57:42.510

know, in the earlier days, I used to be—I will go to court, I will look to the left, I will look to the right. I will be the only non-Caucasian person in the courtroom. That-that still happens quite a bit today, but I'm

00:57:42.510 - 00:57:56.730

seeing more and more, you know, minority attorneys showing up in courtrooms, and in-- the practice law obviously, is pretty, pretty diverse as well. In the-on the immigration bar, there's a lot of attorneys,

00:57:57.590 - 00:58:09.330

you know, minority attorneys. I think in the patent bar, there's quite a bit of that as well. In the, what I do, which-which involves personal injury, medical malpractice, that-that's very rare.

00:58:11.640 - 00:58:26.250

But, but that being said, you know, over time, in in the in the litigation arena, you see the door being opened wider and wider, and then you know, you see more and more minorities slowly coming into this part of

00:58:26.250 - 00:58:41.450

the courtroom. So why might you think that there's like less Asian Americans in like the field of law and litigation particularly? Not-not necessarily in litigation, but there—because there's quite a bit of Asian lawyers and

00:58:41.450 - 00:58:55.320

litigation. But in terms of, you know, showing up in court, you know, people might think, "Hey, you're a litigator. That means you go to court all the time." That that's not necessarily the case. I go to court maybe five or six times a year.

00:58:57.350 - 00:59:09.270

Litigation doesn't mean, you know, you always show up to court. It means you deal with litigation, which, you know, 90% of litigation is discovery, which means that's you know, there's things that's done outside of the court.

00:59:10.500 - 00:59:20.600

But when you go to court, I mean, something didn't quite work out. You have a dispute with the other side. You go to court for a hearing, to ask the judge to decide something, or you ask the judge to approve something.

00:59:21.480 - 00:59:38.830

You know, you show up to court and you look to your fellow lawyers there and you know, you are the only, you know, person of color in the entire room. You, you know, you get, I-I am completely used to it.

00:59:38.930 - 00:59:54.480

I, you know, I don't feel discriminated against or anything like that. You know, I think, you know, most of the Asian lawyers that I know of don't practice this particular field.

00:59:56.420 - 01:00:07.530

And there, and again, there are tons, thousands, tens of thousands of Asian lawyers in the city of Houston alone. But most people practice other areas.

01:00:07.570 - 01:00:15.360

There's a lot of transactional lawyer. There's a lot of immigration lawyers. There's a lot of intellectual property lawyers. There's a ton of those.

01:00:16.410 - 01:00:34.300

I can't necessarily tell you why people don't go into litigation, but this field is, you know, this field, this field meaning personal injury, litigation is predominant Caucasian driven. My line work requires quite a bit of...

01:00:38.680 - 01:00:59.340

What's the term I should use... There-there's a lot of—You got to use the-the legal process to negotiate a settlement for your client.

01:01:01.120 - 01:01:15.390

And that process is kind of a way of demanding the other side to pay money for your client, and the other side never willingly pays anything, unless you can prove your case.

01:01:15.440 - 01:01:28.750

And throughout this process, there's a lot of threats that you make. There's a lot of, you know, chest beating. There's, you know, bravado. And, for whatever reason, we just

01:01:28.750 - 01:01:43.850

don't see, you know, a lot of Asian participation in this this particular output. I'm not saying there isn't. There is. There is there's just not as many as, you know,

01:01:45.060 - 01:02:00.680

how Asian Americans, you know, have represented in other line of work. You know, there, there's a ton of Asian lawyers in corporate law. There's a ton of, I know, you know, if you ever come to the AABA,

01:02:00.750 - 01:02:15.090

Houston, there, there's a lot of good lawyers in different areas of law, just-just not a whole lot in litigation. Um how has Coronavirus kind of impacted your practice? And how have you adjusted to it?

01:02:16.020 - 01:02:33.800

So, you know, we—For me, I still go to work. I-I went to work every single day. You know, I-I have to adjust in that, obviously, you know, nobody goes to court now, you know.

01:02:33.870 - 01:02:44.300

If you want a hearing before a judge, you have to request a hearing, mostly by Zoom, or some other, some online tools. And it

01:02:44.410 - 01:03:01.410

impacted me because of the number of trials that my firm had has to be rescheduled, because nobody's going to court, and nobody holds trials. And that, and the downside to that is having a trial setting in litigation means you know, that's the expected timeframe.

01:03:01.960 - 01:03:19.160

So your voice sounds a little hazy right now. Okay. Oh now it's much better.

01:03:19.640 - 01:03:33.940

Sorry. Much better. Okay. Yeah, it's probably just Wi-Fi slowing down. So-so Coronavirus obviously means that nobody's going to court. You can't have trials. Trial a date of

01:03:33.940 - 01:03:44.610

trial is when a case is supposed to resolve. But if you can't have a trial, that means your case won't resolve. Not only what case you resolve will continue to drag on; cases cost money to, you know, to

01:03:44.890 - 01:03:59.040

operate. And your law firm is continuing to spend money on cases. And your client, who's being injured, who's suffered some type of, you know, tort. Which is, tort means a civil wrong, that won't get

01:03:59.040 - 01:04:12.120

compensated. And so people want to know what was going to happen to their cases, and it's just a continuation. It's just delay for your clients getting compensation, or getting some kind of justice. And as

01:04:12.190 - 01:04:28.260

we all know, I think was Martin Luther King, or some other person who said, "Justice delayed is justice denied." So Coronavirus pushes a lot of things back. That said, there are also some cases where we are

01:04:28.260 - 01:04:40.500

fortunate enough to resolve through the use of technology. We were able to negotiate a number of cases to be resolved online without, you know, seeing other people face to face-- without being in the same

01:04:40.500 - 01:04:54.310

room with the defense lawyers. We able to negotiate and come to conclusions with the-with the use of technology. And I can also tell you that throughout my practice or a number of times when I-when I have

01:04:54.520 - 01:05:11.390

never met opposing counsel in person, but we were able to negotiate a conclusion of the case by telephone, or by internet, you know, just various ways to resolve cases. But otherwise, you know, I don't

01:05:11.430 - 01:05:26.870

think I've met anyone who, who thought Coronavirus, you know, was a great thing for the legal profession, because it's not. It's just causing a lot of delays to the to the litigation system and I'll also share

01:05:26.870 - 01:05:38.620

with you, in law, there are two major fields. There's litigation, then there's transaction. I don't I don't know that, that the folks who do transaction are impacted a whole lot. Because nowadays, a lot of transactions

01:05:38.620 - 01:05:57.690

done by internet, by email, by phone, by Zoom meetings anyway, so I don't think it impacts transaction folks as much as it does to the litigation folks. So how do you compare like these online platforms, to in person like

01:05:57.690 - 01:06:10.030

interactions then? For like either work, social experiences, etc. So, how, you know, when we're doing things online, you know, one thing, for example, one thing we

01:06:10.030 - 01:06:20.920

do a lot in litigation is deposition. Deposition meetings, you go into court. I'm sorry, you go into, you know, usually somebody's conference room, and you depose a witness, meaning you ask

01:06:21.010 - 01:06:35.940

the witness questions. And-and, you know, sometimes it requires a physical presence in order to get as much information as you can out of a witness. And then there are things you-- it's just difficult to accomplish

01:06:36.350 - 01:06:48.150

without you physically being there, because sometimes from time to time, you need to hand a documented witness and say, you know, "Mr. Johnson, you said, you know, so and so. But, you know, what is this,

01:06:48.150 - 01:07:00.150

right in front, a document that disproves everything you just said?" That's, that's part of the cross examination. And that's kind of the Perry Mason moment that you see from time to time in movies. Those-those moments actually happen.

01:07:01.200 - 01:07:18.660

It's-it's difficult to-to get that without physically, without a physical presence. That said, you know, there-there's a lot of legal services, court reporting services who have ways to supplement that—I just took a class yesterday on

01:07:19.170 - 01:07:31.010

technology, and some people say, "Hey, you can use this particular tool so that you can still cross examine your witnesses effectively, just like you were there in person." I haven't used it, yet.

01:07:31.490 - 01:07:41.910

So I can't tell you a whole lot how well it works or doesn't work. But let me let me do that and follow up with you in, in three months or six months, and see how well that deposition went.

01:07:42.780 - 01:07:57.020

But, yeah, technology, you know, there are benefits, there are downsides. I you know, I think I'd much rather you know, for, for example, today, you know, I know, I know, we're technically 1500 or 2000

01:07:57.020 - 01:08:12.420

miles apart. But, you know, we're able to communicate, you know, face to face. I-I-- personally, I prefer, you know, meeting a person sitting in the same room and actually, you know, I feel that there are messages that could have been communicated better.

01:08:14.380 - 01:08:29.330

But, you know, I'm more old-fashioned that way. Besides at work, how has the coronavirus epidemic kind of impacted your life? So I haven't seen my friends for a long time. You know, I feel that so, you know, my-my Asian

01:08:29.920 - 01:08:43.110

friends are relatively more concerned about the virus than, you know, in general. You know, I think people are afraid to go out, to eat at restaurants. I invited my friends to go out to eat at restaurants.

01:08:43.770 - 01:08:56.710

They shake their heads. And, you know, I-I used to go to visit my parents, you know, once every several days. Now, you know, I'm concerned, "Hey, you know, am I carrying a virus without

01:08:56.710 - 01:09:11.840

knowing? I probably shouldn't go visit my parents very often." So I-I try not to do that. It's harder to have human interactions, because, you know, because of quarantine, and because of the recent resurgence

01:09:13.040 - 01:09:31.050

in, I'm not sure if resurgence is the right word, but the surge in cases in Texas, in-in Florida, in various other parts of the country just bringing a lot of concerns to people in general. So yeah, I mean, it destroys your social life.

01:09:33.170 - 01:09:46.190

You kind of learn to do things on your own. You know this this solitude maybe-maybe a way for you to get more acquainted with yourself.

01:09:47.710 - 01:09:58.900

Um do you feel like that also like increase like stress and anxiety, especially for the future? Maybe not, you know. The-there-there are obviously two sides to everything, right? So the-the plus

01:09:58.900 - 01:10:10.720

side is you don’t have to deal with drama. You know have to deal with other people's, you know, business, and I think that probably-that's probably a net reduction of stress in general.

01:10:11.240 - 01:10:26.170

Not having to deal with other people. So-so you get a little bit more time on your hand. You know, so I spend more time online and things like that. Is that a good thing? No, I think I spent too much time online already.

01:10:26.220 - 01:10:39.740

I think I need to go out and meet people and hang out with people. And you know, like, like, when you're young, your parents used to say, you know, "Go, go out and play outside." I think I think I need

01:10:39.740 - 01:10:53.830

to do that more. Um how did you feel hearing about some of the assumptions made about the Asian community being more susceptible to the virus? And, you know, I think that only goes to show that, you know,

01:10:55.840 - 01:11:12.200

130 some odd years after the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, you know, people still are prone to assumptions, stereotypes, things like that. You know, people used to think that Chinese folks are more susceptible

01:11:12.200 - 01:11:27.440

to, you know, doing opium, or gambling, or prostitution, or all these, all these negative traits that used to be associated with Chinese, you know. A hundred and thirty or forty years later, it is still easy for people in

01:11:27.440 - 01:11:41.850

times of crises to jump to conclusion. And the last several years, unfortunately, we see a trend toward that direction. We see people making certain conclusions about certain racial and ethnic groups being more

01:11:41.850 - 01:11:56.020

likely to do certain things, which, you know, I hope that Asian American groups, in general, that we have learned lessons from yesterday, that we, one time, were the subject

01:11:56.880 - 01:12:14.910

of discrimination. And I hope that we learned lessons in: one, having a more open mind, in general; and two, avoid the temptation, temptation of emotion, and try

01:12:14.930 - 01:12:29.360

to understand more. And, you know, I think it's disheartening to-to see that some of the Asian Americans, actually, are even less tolerant,

01:12:30.040 - 01:12:48.390

than we would hope for, you know, equality and acceptance of other racial minority groups. I wish that, in general that, we as a society, we as Asian Americans, and we as a society

01:12:48.390 - 01:13:05.880

in general, learn to be more tolerant, learn to be more forgiving. And-and remember what we learned from yesterday that because these things were done to us, doesn't mean we should do it unto other people. So they're kind of like in the light of the Black Lives Matter movement, do

01:13:05.880 - 01:13:21.690

you think Asian American should be like in solidarity with the African Americans? I think 100%, without question, Asian Americans should be in solidarity with African American community. I-I feel that there's a lot of misunderstanding, that

01:13:21.750 - 01:13:39.930

there is a lot of, you know—I'll say that we too, are capable of stereotyping other racial and minority groups. And I hope that we learned the lessons from yesterday, that it wasn't, it wasn't pleasant

01:13:40.510 - 01:13:56.130

when it was done to us, and therefore we shouldn't do it to others either. That said, I think the, I think this is a gradual learning process. You know, so-so America,

01:13:56.390 - 01:14:14.460

as a country, over time learned the valuable lesson of, you know, of rejecting racism, rejecting stereotype. And, you know, it's only after 200 some odd years that we are still struggling.

01:14:14.460 - 01:14:27.390

We're still learning. We're still in this process of moving forward. And, you know, as you know, Asian Americans, I think, you know, the first Asian Americans stepped in-- onto the Coastal California in, I

01:14:27.390 - 01:14:46.270

think, 1840 or 1850s. Over time I, you know, I think the, we, as a racial minority group, have not, you know, had the, as much of an

01:14:46.350 - 01:15:02.050

urgency or need to learn this lesson. And I think within our own community, we should accelerate the process and understand that racism is-is not a one way

01:15:02.050 - 01:15:20.190

street, that we experienced racism in the yester years. But our community is capable and very much practices racism against other racial minority groups. I wish that people will learn the

01:15:20.190 - 01:15:38.000

lessons that our forefathers learned, except in a different direction. But also do you consider like COVID-19 kind of like a setback for Asian American progression? In terms of--Progression in terms of what? Um like racially, socially?

01:15:41.020 - 01:15:58.030

Um, I think, you know, we know—So-so I'm a member of OCA Greater Houston, and we-we hear about these things quite a bit. I think the latest numbers that I've heard of is that there's about 2000

01:15:58.070 - 01:16:11.730

reported cases of instances of hate against Asians throughout the country. I think there were quite a number in California. I'm somewhat relieved to report that we have relatively few in Texas;

01:16:12.260 - 01:16:25.490

doesn't mean, you know, obviously one is too many. But you know, so we talked about the instance against the Asian family, the Burmese family that took place in Midland, Texas in March of this year, which was a horrific

01:16:25.490 - 01:16:39.810

crime. I believe FBI has investigated as a, as a hate crime and has charged the perpetrator. And then outside of that there, there are relatively few racially motivated cases here in Texas. So I guess that's

01:16:39.810 - 01:16:58.100

somewhat a relief. I feel that, in general, our community is somewhat—from what I can see-- that there is a sharp debate

01:16:58.590 - 01:17:16.650

ongoing, within at least a Chinese community that I can see, some people feel that we should be more supportive of the, you know, of, of a number of social issues, you know, LBGTQ rights,

01:17:17.990 - 01:17:35.260

African American equality, you know, immigration, things like that. And then there's a group of people who feel very differently about that direction. And to be very frank, I think there are valid points made by both

01:17:35.260 - 01:17:53.190

sides. But I will say that, now, the debate is shifting more towards just people yelling at each other. It's just a, just expression of raw emotion rather than an attempt to find mutual grounds to find

01:17:54.050 - 01:18:05.140

a solution to the many problems that our society is facing. And I will, I will also say this, despite all the problems that we have in this country, I still think this is the greatest country in the universe.

01:18:06.080 - 01:18:19.050

I think what unites us far, far outweighs what divides us. There are things you know, and again, if there are things, if we agree on everything, that that'd be wonderful, but that's not gonna happen.

01:18:19.050 - 01:18:32.770

And if we agree on everything, that makes the world a very boring place. I think, I'm from, you know, I was raised Chinese. And you know, I subscribe to the doctrine of the mean,

01:18:32.860 - 01:18:46.980

or, you know, in Chinese in the Confucianism experiment-- of the tradition that, you know, it's 中庸, or means, you know, the doctrine of the mean, you're in the center. You're not on the left. You're not on the

01:18:46.980 - 01:19:03.410

right; You're in the center, because—I feel that every country will have a left side, every country or society will have a right side. Just like every person will have a left hand, and everybody will have a right

01:19:03.410 - 01:19:16.470

hand. Right now, it feels like the left side is saying the right hand is stupid, and the right hand is saying the left hand is stupid, which in reality, you know, I think we need both hands in order to be a functional

01:19:16.470 - 01:19:29.360

person. So when, you know, when the more progressive folks accuse the more conservative folks are certain things, or when the more conservative folks accuse the more, you know, liberal folks of certain things, I feel that's silly.

01:19:30.230 - 01:19:43.490

I think a society needs both. Both left, both right. Absent one particular side, we wouldn't be whole, we wouldn't be a complete society or

01:19:43.490 - 01:19:54.410

culture or country. I wish people would keep in mind that you can have your preference, your differences, but in the end, we are one.

01:19:56.720 - 01:20:15.490

Can you also tell me a little bit more about your involvement with OCA? Sure. So Cecil Fong was the one who kind of introduced me to OCA by offering me free food, initially, which you know, I-I agreed to come to some of the

01:20:15.490 - 01:20:27.120

dinners at first, and quickly realize that there's a price. So I'm now on, I'm now serving my second going on third year in OCA. I joined OCA in

01:20:27.120 - 01:20:41.110

2018, I want to say. First, I sign up for the board. And then, you know, last year they said, "Hey, why don't you serve as a president this year?" I didn't say no quickly enough, so

01:20:41.110 - 01:20:51.590

now I'm here. I guess this is a, this is an opportunity for you to give back to your community, to do things for the community, to—And

01:20:51.660 - 01:21:06.720

OCA is all about advocacy, is to advocate for those in need. And I'm happy to say that I got a chance to advocate for part of our community. You know, a friend of mine asked me how much money do I get by

01:21:06.790 - 01:21:23.500

part of, serving OCA? I started laughing. I said, "You think I get money by, by serving OCA? No, I have to pay money, in order to in order to be here." I think at the end of day, whatever it is you do, whatever

01:21:23.500 - 01:21:38.220

walk of life, whatever stage of life you're in, if there was an opportunity for you to give back to your community you should have absolutely, without question, you should absolutely do it. There's a phrase in Chinese is, you know, I will say it.

01:21:39.910 - 01:21:52.630

It's called 无以善事而不为，无以恶事而为止It means, If there is a, you know, loosely translated, “if there's a good thing, even if it's small, don't, don't not do it because it's small." Just do it.

01:21:53.310 - 01:22:07.500

Just do it for the benefit, not for yourself, but for others. Do you feel Asian Americans might be like less forthcoming, to fight for their legal rights and fight for like their own advocacy? Yes, yes, indeed. In terms of legal rights.

01:22:07.940 - 01:22:24.780

I think, I think, for example, in law, I, it's pretty rare for me to come across, I guess an East Asian individual. I think East Asian folks are reluctant to resort to court or legal-legal system.

01:22:25.760 - 01:22:40.870

South Asia folks are not shy at all. I guess so, I guess that's a cultural distinction. I guess the East Asian, the Confucian influenced culture circles are-are less likely to

01:22:41.540 - 01:22:57.070

interact with government, or public services, or the legal system. I-I almost feel that, you know, the-the culture discourages people from speaking out.

01:22:58.600 - 01:23:17.170

You know, the culture is, the East Asian culture doesn't really encourage people to complain. You know, the culture more, more or less wants you to just suck up and just take it. So, so I would, I would

01:23:17.210 - 01:23:36.660

say, you know, my experience, interacting with East Asian folks, is that they're far less likely to utilize government services, or benefits, you know, to, in a particular sense. So then how can you like be better informed, or like educated about their rights?

01:23:36.920 - 01:23:48.150

Is that kind of like what OCA does? Yes. So-so we've been trying very hard. Debbie Chen, I don't know if you ever met her, and get a chance to talk to her, you-you-you—Debbie Chan is a wonderful human being.

01:23:48.490 - 01:23:59.540

And if she's watching, I think she you know, she deserves a raise. So, you know, Debbie Chan tries diligently to, you know, to even get people to answer their Census.

01:24:01.210 - 01:24:12.890

And you know, we, OCA, we put out signs. We have volunteers trying to reach out to people, and ask them to please just fill out your Census. It takes 10 minutes to fill

01:24:12.890 - 01:24:24.050

out your Census. It's required, and it's anonymous. The information you, in Census, cannot be used against you. Even you know, even for folks who aren't citizens, you're still required to fill out your Census.

01:24:24.100 - 01:24:33.810

And even then, we have a hard time getting people to do that. We have a hard time encouraging, you know, people to vote. Voting. You know, I voted two weeks ago.

01:24:33.830 - 01:24:46.360

It took me about five minutes to finish the whole process. But Asian turnout, or Chinese turnout, unfortunately is low. And the Chinese turnout unfortunately is so low that we drag down the average rate

01:24:46.430 - 01:24:57.970

for all Asians. We hope there are ways for us to engage people to come out, and to vote, to fill out your Census.

01:24:58.050 - 01:25:12.780

That, we're, we're not as successful as we want to be in getting people to exercise their legal rights. So if you if you have a, if you have any good ideas, please write us, you know, email us.

01:25:13.030 - 01:25:25.530

We are more than happy to talk to you, if you have a way to get people to vote. With that, I will, you know, I have, I have one observation, you know, to share as well.

01:25:25.530 - 01:25:35.240

So I'm from Taiwan. The voting rate in Taiwan is very high. And it's usually in the 70 to 80% range, far higher than, you know, here in the United States.

01:25:36.320 - 01:25:51.810

For, you know, there used to be 80 to 90%, at one point, during presidential elections. That's because people feel very strongly about their political beliefs. Now, in a democracy, that can be very incredibly polarizing.

01:25:52.770 - 01:26:08.240

So on one hand, we wish people to engage civically, and to exercise their right, and to exercise what I consider to be a duty as part of a democracy, and go vote. On the other hand, I think the reason why people don't vote,

01:26:09.510 - 01:26:20.760

Chinese folks don't vote as-as, you know, in as-as high rate as we'd like, is because they don't feel it makes a particular purpose one way or the other, whether they vote or not.

01:26:21.070 - 01:26:36.470

And they probably don't feel that way because whether you elect a Republican or Democrat probably won't matter as much to them, and probably for a good reason, because their lives will continue on. So perhaps, you know, the silver lining in the low turnout in

01:26:36.880 - 01:26:50.110

in Asian votes is that these things aren't as polarizing, or as you know politically instigating to, you know, to our

01:26:50.110 - 01:27:06.540

communities. So perhaps that's a silver lining that we can we can deduct from the low turnout rates. That's it, please vote! Can you also tell me a little bit more about your like culture and

01:27:06.580 - 01:27:16.850

art activities? Culture activities. So I-I volunteer. I involuntarily volunteer at this, at this group. It's called the Legend of Taiwan.

01:27:17.630 - 01:27:31.200

Legend of Taiwan does what we do Dragon Dance, so I, you know, I participate in that Dragon Dance. You may be able to find us at www. legendoftaiwan. com, or I'm not sure if that

01:27:31.280 - 01:27:42.730

website is still working. But if you just google Legend of Taiwan Houston, you should be able to see us. We participated in the Thanksgiving Parade in, starting 2017 or 18.

01:27:42.730 - 01:28:00.480

I forgot which year. It's kind of our way of bringing, bring out about our culture to, you know, to-to the, to the community in general. So, Dragon Dance, I'm not sure if you've seen it before, you probably

01:28:00.480 - 01:28:17.640

have, it's-it's a prop shaping a dragon. And we have about 8 to 10 folks holding on to a pole, and we run around, and we do all kinds of tricks. And I'm happy to report that in the in the last

01:28:18.160 - 01:28:31.810

Thanksgiving parade that we participated in, the people were just crazy when they saw us, and they were applauding fever, feverishly when they saw our performance. So I'm happy to report that.

01:28:32.550 - 01:28:45.410

Other cultural experiences, like I do, I still practice kung fu from time to time, and we perform. Our organization host a tournament every March to April here in Houston, Texas.

01:28:46.690 - 01:28:59.810

You know, and, and one thing about the kung fu, or the Chinese martial art aspect is I noticed that there, it attracts a lot of folks from other ethnic backgrounds.

01:28:59.870 - 01:29:14.290

We see a lot of Caucasian folks, Black folks, Hispanic folks, you know, South Asian, Middle East, and, you know, all walks of life are attracted by this, you know, this, this is something that our culture has to offers that

01:29:14.290 - 01:29:28.680

seems to generate a lot of interest from other sides. So, so that's-that's one thing that I, you know, I would have, you know, I think this is one part of the culture that that, that I see a lot of interest and participation in.

01:29:31.240 - 01:29:44.830

So how would you like most identify yourself as? A Houstonian, lawyer, Asian American? All of them? I think all of the above. And that, that identification changes over time.

01:29:45.460 - 01:30:01.540

You know, obviously the, you know, the-the first day I got here, you know, in Houston, I found myself as Chinese. And overall, there's a, you know, in, you know, overall in Taiwan, there's a shift of identity in the last 20, 30 years.

01:30:02.330 - 01:30:16.150

There used to be vast majority people identified themselves as Chinese. And over the last 20 or 30 years, that identification has shifted gradually towards Taiwanese rather than Chinese. And then, you know, for

01:30:16.150 - 01:30:31.560

better or worse, that that's the sentiment changes due to a variety of reasons. And then, I think for me, gradually I, I feel the Taiwanese identity. I feel the American identity.

01:30:31.600 - 01:30:45.970

I feel the Asian American identity. I am happy to report that America is a very tolerating society in general, there’s imperfections, you know,

01:30:46.090 - 01:31:03.010

nobody's perfect. But overall, I think this is still a welcoming and tolerating culture in general. There are times when I feel, you know, going to-going to The Heights, or going to downtown, you know, sitting in

01:31:03.010 - 01:31:19.300

a restaurant, I feel American. There are times when I sit in, you know, in a hotpot place, or while I sitting at karaoke, I feel the Asian aspect of the culture. So you know, so to answer your question, that identity,

01:31:19.300 - 01:31:31.210

that shifts from time to time, depending on the occasion, depending on the time of the day. I guess what, you know, what particularly reinforces a particular idea depending on the time, the occasion, the, the

01:31:31.210 - 01:31:47.510

people I'm with. There's, there's no one, you know, answer that's-that's true 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It—This is a, this is a-a-a thing that changes from time to time, depending on the situation

01:31:48.850 - 01:32:03.530

And have you ever been affected by like the myth of the model minority? How do you mean by the myth of model minority? And I say that rhetorically. You know, the, the model minority I, you know, for one example,

01:32:05.940 - 01:32:17.620

you know, in my, my work, I, you know, in my in my building, on my floor, you know, on the other side of wall is a, I still don't know what it is they do, but they have police officers showing up all the time.

01:32:17.770 - 01:32:25.280

Like, you know, every single day, there's like five or six police officers there. I would come across them. They will look at me. I'll look at them.

01:32:26.730 - 01:32:41.640

I have, they have never, for example, you know, harassed me or anything like that. I guess I look like, you know, somebody who's not threatening at all. Nobody ever, you know, put a knee to my neck or, you know,

01:32:42.970 - 01:32:54.980

or did anything like that. Does that have something to do with my ethnic background that, you know, perhaps they don't consider the quote unquote model minority to be threatening?

01:32:55.520 - 01:33:11.580

Maybe. On the other hand, you know, there are times when, you know, people naturally assume that I'm good at math, which I am not. I am, you know, I-I, math, computer science

01:33:11.650 - 01:33:24.160

are just not my thing at all. So, you know, the model minority situation would not apply to me those cases. Now, it is also true that

01:33:24.670 - 01:33:37.900

the Asian American community, you know, relative to others, we have a higher educational level, on average. We have higher income, on average, relative to other ethnic groups. Is that good? Is that bad?

01:33:38.670 - 01:33:51.730

You tell me. I think all, everybody wants to succeed. Whichever walk of life you may be in, whichever ethnic group, whichever racial group you may be in, everybody wants to succeed, and do

01:33:51.730 - 01:34:03.890

well in life, do well for himself or herself, do well for their family, their loved ones. If we have an opportunity to, you know, to have higher education and better income, I think everybody will welcome that.

01:34:05.090 - 01:34:14.990

Is that bad? I-I wouldn't think so. Some people will say, you know, but why should we fit that model minority mentality?

01:34:15.180 - 01:34:34.260

My response to that is, why-why shouldn't, why shouldn't we try to do well for ourselves and for our community? Do you have any advice for people interested in law, or bridging like different cultures and nations? I would say, you know, in—So that sounds like a two part question.

01:34:34.450 - 01:34:46.570

As far as to law, I would say, read a lot. And then go out, and interact with the real world and, you know, what's the real world?

01:34:48.510 - 01:34:59.600

The-- You know, go-go help volunteer at a local event. Go eat at a local restaurant. Go talk to people. Go talk to people you don't know.

01:34:59.920 - 01:35:11.610

Go talk to people who have different background. Go listen to other people's thoughts. Talk to people online. Have a debate. Talk to somebody who share a different view from

01:35:11.610 - 01:35:20.880

yours. Look for dissent. Look for people who think, who think differently from you. Step out of your comfort zone. Step out of your echo chamber.

01:35:21.520 - 01:35:33.080

See things differently. And then learn to support your position, or learn to support the other position.

01:35:33.700 - 01:35:49.260

Let evidence determine what side you should be on. Have some real life experience. Read. Those are ways for you to familiarize on

01:35:50.050 - 01:36:01.290

why there are laws. On why things are done certain way. Because laws are what society has designed to help formulate how things should be

01:36:01.290 - 01:36:14.400

done, either in a more efficient manner, or in a more productive manner. Laws are designed to encourage certain behaviors and discourage certain behaviors. Once you understand how the society works in

01:36:14.470 - 01:36:33.800

general, hopefully you'll understand the purpose of law. And as far as, I'm sorry, what's your second question again? Um how to bridge like different cultures and nations? I-I'm still working on that, but my personal experience is, is to,

01:36:34.520 - 01:36:50.980

and you know, similar to the first part, to try to do something that you haven't done before. Try to step into-- step out of your comfort zone. And interact with other culture, other aspects.

01:36:52.430 - 01:37:09.120

And it, you know, it may be that, you will be a-an ambassador of goodwill between you and the Hispanic community, and that is a wonderful thing. Because every, you know, obviously that default, the comfort zone is, "Hey, let's

01:37:09.120 - 01:37:19.380

stick with what we already know, you know, what we're already familiar with. Let's keep doing the same thing that we're doing." And then how do you know you're not missing all these other things?

01:37:20.200 - 01:37:33.450

One thing I think, you know, we have the benefit of, you know, here in Houston is that we have a lot of different, different restaurants, different food, and food is usually a good way to start the process for you to, you

01:37:34.020 - 01:37:46.990

know—I-I remember my experience in going to Indian sec-section of town in, on Hillcroft. And I walked there, and I didn't, I knew

01:37:47.090 - 01:37:58.980

very little about the culture and the people there. I just stopped and asked a random person, "Hey, I'm interested in learning more about your food." And the person was incredibly friendly. And he said, "This

01:37:58.980 - 01:38:11.120

restaurant has XYZ that I usually order. Go ahead and try it." I went out and tried it, and I got hooked. Chicken Tikka Masala, was a wonderful dish that I continue to try on a weekly basis to this day.

01:38:11.580 - 01:38:29.270

That that's part of the-the cultural experience I wasn't expecting. And-and again, we-we have the incredible benefit of the incredible rich in diversity here in this country. There are just so many walks of

01:38:29.340 - 01:38:41.540

life that brought a part of their culture from, you know, from the different continents. All we got to do is, you know, I think the first step is, to seek other restaurants and, you know, that that's probably the easiest step one.

01:38:42.310 - 01:38:52.950

And two, there are all kinds of cultural festivities throughout—I imagine Atlanta would have a lot of those. Here in Houston, we have quite a bit of that. We have International Festival, which

01:38:52.990 - 01:39:03.260

unfortunately, is not going on this year. But there are so many festivals for you to go to and immerse yourself with different cultures. I still try to do that from time to time.

01:39:03.650 - 01:39:19.030

There's, you know, there's different events that, you know, if you can try to make time for it, spend a couple of hours a week, obviously once the pandemic, the pandemic is over, don't-don't do that now.

01:39:20.000 - 01:39:33.740

But if you have the opportunity to engage and to embrace different cultures, I promise you, it will be incredibly rewarding in the end. That's all for my questions. Is there anything else you would like to add?

01:39:34.280 - 01:39:48.240

I can't think of anything right now. I know I've been I've been yakking in, for the last, let's see, an hour forty-nine minutes. So I know we're a little bit over time. But I would say that the, you know, for

01:39:48.240 - 01:40:04.130

me, the American experience has been incredibly profound, and rewarding, and enriching. I think my advice to young folks like you, and I say this like I'm really old, which I feel I'm

01:40:04.210 - 01:40:16.620

pretty old, just go out and try as much as you can. Don't do drugs. But there are a lot of cultural activities, experiences that's

01:40:16.720 - 01:40:28.580

available to, to you at a click of a button. See the world as much as you can. Travel when, not, not right now, but travel when you when you're able to.

01:40:29.200 - 01:40:38.690

Engage different cultures. Talk to people you don't know. It will pay dividends. It will enrich you as a person, profoundly.

01:40:41.150 - 01:40:55.920

So, so with that, I mean, you know, always feel free to, I guess, you know, follow up and ask me any more questions you may have, I'm always happy to share my humble experience, you know. Being in this country, I-I still, you know, there' still time is that I, you

01:40:56.120 - 01:41:11.570

know, I think myself as just that one boy who had the, the honor and the privilege to be in this country, and to learn about the opportunities here. That experience obviously is different for everybody.

01:41:12.570 - 01:41:28.480

But, you know, there is a lot to be gained in life once you engage it. I encourage everybody to live and to experience as much as they can. Thank you so much for doing this interview. Not a problem. Thank you, Ashley.

01:41:28.480 - 01:41:46.720

I appreciate it. Thanks. Okay, so, let me see. So we're good? Mhm. Okay.

01:41:47.230 - 01:42:03.950

I don't I don't think I have a—I can't think of my first interaction with America. So I got here, and my dad, and my uncle took me and my dad to the local DMV because we were trying to get my dad a

01:42:03.950 - 01:42:14.720

driver's license, because you know, like I said, if you if you don't have a car you can't get anywhere. So we were standing in the DMV, which you know, as you know, has a very long line. So we're just waiting in line.

01:42:14.720 - 01:42:22.010

My uncle said, "Hey, young man, you know, don't waste it, you know. You're, you're here. Make use of your time." Because we're Asian. We want to make it work.

01:42:22.040 - 01:42:27.500

We want to be diligent. And we want to use our time wisely. And he said, "Hey, you just got into this country. Why don't you learn some English?

01:42:27.950 - 01:42:41.390

Look at all those pictures and charts on the DMV's wall. And, you know, and-and see what those things say, and memorize phrases and vocabulary, so, you know, improve your-your English proficiency." So I thought, "Mhm.

01:42:41.390 - 01:42:55.240

That's a great idea. Let me go do that" So I, you know, I had a pen and paper, so I started reading all these, all these on the DMV's walls, and you know, I you know, I thought I, you know, I took English when I was in Taiwan, I thought I should understand at

01:42:55.240 - 01:43:04.460

least some of it. And I read this one sign, and I just couldn't understand it. I don't understand anything it says. And I went back to my uncle, and I was like, "Uncle, the sign is really difficult.

01:43:04.460 - 01:43:18.050

I don't understand this, you know, all these, all these vocabularies they're using." My uncle said, "Of course. It's Spanish." So then, then I realized, "Oh wow, you know, not everything here is written in English." You

01:43:18.050 - 01:43:32.950

know, Spanish is the second most used language in this country. There, there's one time—So my grandmother lived with us for quite a while. And there are—Actually I'm

01:43:33.860 - 01:43:52.360

okay. Maybe another day. Um let me see if I can think of anything else that that wouldn't, you know, embarrass my family too much. But, you know, it, the experience

01:43:55.780 - 01:44:13.140

You know, I there is still, you know, like George Strait in his songs, you know, sometimes he still feels twenty-five. There are times I still feel like, you know, I just stepped off the boat. You know, that I—You know,

01:44:13.610 - 01:44:29.600

there's still a lot about this society, about the, you know, things in general that I haven't learned yet, despite me having been here for the last twenty, twenty-eight or twenty-nine years. You know, I just

01:44:29.600 - 01:44:42.790

learned recently you know that there's this thing called "crabgrass" that you do not want on your lawn. And you know, I used to feel, "Oh, it's green. It's growing our lawn, so what's so bad about it?" Until

01:44:42.790 - 01:44:58.030

people said, "Uh-uh that, that's not how lawns work here in this country." So I went out and, went to Home Depot and bought a whole bunch of grass treatment and, and finally began to learn how to use a

01:44:58.030 - 01:45:15.610

small lawn mower, which, you know, the, there-there are a number of Hispanic folks waiting outside of Home Depot. They look at me, they're like, you know, "This, this guy doesn't even know what he's doing." You know,

01:45:15.610 - 01:45:29.470

we-we live in the Asia pound, I'm sorry, the Asian side of town and, you know, our experience is-is probably more unique, I—You know, I used to live right next to Chinatown. I could walk

01:45:29.960 - 01:45:44.440

to Chinatown for-for lunch, for dinner. And I'm just not used to paying a tip after-- at the end, because like I said, I don't feel that we should pay tips, because shouldn't part of the

01:45:45.110 - 01:45:56.140

price for lunch or dinner include a charge for the services that these folks were supposed to provide in first place? And then I realized they, too, have to make a living so I really tip.

01:45:58.950 - 01:46:14.290

But yeah, for me the American experiences is an ongoing experiment that continues on as we speak. And you know, I think it was Steve Jobs who said, "Be hungry. Be foolish.

01:46:15.090 - 01:46:29.850

Always be willing to learn and get more out of life." So... I think that's all I can think of tour for today. But if I think of anything else, I will continue to supplement.

01:46:30.340 - 01:46:37.090

Please let us know. Thank you so much for doing this. Okay, no problem. Thank you, Ashley. Goodbye. Okay. All right. I'll see you.

01:46:37.620 - 01:46:38.160

Signing off now.