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We're here today at Library on July 9th, 2018, interviewing doctor Guo Li. Uh my name is, my name is and my name is Bridget Shen Le doctor daughter. My name is OK. And we'll start out with uh where and when you were born. Uh I was

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born in uh Wing County Jiangsu province of China, right? What year? Uh 1942? Ok. Um And what was your childhood like uh uh my childhood life? Uh OK. I think my youth is very difficult and it was painful. Periods were painful. Yeah. Uh What our job

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uh in 1937 when Japan occupied Shanghai, my original hometown is in Pudong section of Shanghai. During the war. My entire hometown was bombed and flattened and I remembered we had a dog and the dog was killed

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during the bomb. And then after the, the bombing of my hometown, the whole family, the hotel moved to Changzhou, which is another city a couple hours outside of Shanghai and that later became my hometown. Yeah. Uh Yeah. Yeah. Uh

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uh is the uh uh uh in 1940 I was born in 1942 and not soon after I was born, my father passed away because of the illness prior to that, because we were refugees to the town that we were relocated

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to because of the war. Uh The life was very, very tough. So my dad got sick. There's no way to treat him. So he died uh several months after I was born. Uh So I have two older sisters. So in order for my mother to raise

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us, she had to get married. But in China, when she gets remarried, her previous Children from the um passed away husband were not allowed to be brought into the family. So my two older sisters were given away as childhood bride and I was given away as

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an orphan uh correction uh because I'm a boy, I was not given away. So I was uh left but my mother couldn't bring me into the new family. So I was left with my paton, her grandmother and she had to raise me so my mother could

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remarry. But my two sisters were given away as childhood bride. Yeah. Uh uh uh ok. Life was very, very difficult at that time. Um I remember vividly the only food source we had a lot of was pumpkin. There

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were pumpkins under the bed, there were pumpkins under the table and we had pumpkins as our meals, all three meals and you just cook it, you can steam it, cook it and you just eat pumpkin. The word means um I think I'll translate.

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You know how, when you guys get a dumpling soup that the way Americans cook dumpling, it's just a, like a, like a uh a bunch of flour you toss in the soup and then it OK, think of the like Italian. No, that's probably my uh best

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translation to it. So sometimes as a treat, we get some flowers and we put the flowers with the pumpkin soup and we get something non pumpkin to eat. But the main dish was pumpkin uh ***. Uh

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So I grew up with my grandmother in the country and when I was in elementary school, my responsibility was to raise three sheeps, one pig and 1/4 of a water buffalo. And the reason it's 1/4 of a water buffalo because water are very big. They need

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to use them to um help uh with the rice field because the rice field is in the water. That's why you need water buffalo to, to um to grow the crops. Yeah, to help with the crops. So four families had to get together to afford one

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water buffalo, water buffalo eat grass. So after he comes home from school, he has to take care of three sheep, one pig and cut enough grass to feed the water buffalo. When it's our family's turn to feed the water buffalo. It was my

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job. But it was a very scary job because you had to ride on top of the water buffalo. But water buffaloes by nature likes to fight so they will fight with other water buffaloes. So I'm bouncing on top of the water buffalo and I was scared

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but I had to do it because then I had to do it before I go to school early in the mornings to take the water buffalo out to eat enough grass. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I have two older sisters. They're still alive. I was in

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China just a month ago and I visited both of them. Yeah. Uh uh uh early life. This is what I want to share with you about my early life because it's very different than other people's life. Do you have any questions? Um What time did he

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wake up to care for the water buffalo before sun rise? 4 a.m. Five AM 44 to 5 a.m. because sun rises about five. Yeah. After five, I think between 5 to 6 a.m. he had to get up before sunrise before sunrise. Yeah. So was it just

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him and his grandmother living together? Uh uh I also live with my anchor. My anchor is uh uh my anchor. Have you can uh So I also lived uh my grandmother has a younger son, which is my uncle, my father's younger brother. He was not

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married at the time. He does not have Children and he has very bad temper. He used to beat me all the time. So for example, one morning he was brushing teeth. He heard the, uh, sheep and so he went to check and the sheep didn't have

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any grass. So he would just grab me and beat me. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, early life. So this is what I say about my early life. So my early life is very tough. Very difficult. Very painful. Yeah. Ok. Ok. Um, how much older were his siblings? Were

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his sisters? Oh. uh, my older sister right now is, uh, ok. The oldest sister is 12 years older than I am. So, uh, the second sister is six years older. So my, my dad is the youngest of three Children. Mhm. And, uh, what school did you,

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did you go to, uh, uh, school? Uh, uh, forgot that. Ok. Ok. So this is my, uh, uh, primary education background for elementary school. I was educated at the local school for middle school. I was tested into number four middle school for Changzhou city. Changzhou is

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the, uh, uh, uh, a big city in Jiangsu province and for senior high school. Um, because my grades were excellent. I was, uh sent to one of the three best, uh, high schools in the entire state and I didn't have to pay anything because the government

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took care of everything and I didn't have to take the test to go to the high school because my grades were good. Uh, uh, so it was so, uh, when I got accepted into the middle school. Um I was chosen to represent all the incoming students

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and to give the speech, you have to be the highest uh one of the highest um applicants in terms of the testing grade in order to be chosen. And it's a huge honor and I do remember that occasion. Yeah. The reason I, I remember it vividly

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it was my first time speaking into a microphone and I speak it loudly to begin with. But I didn't know I held the speakerphone very close to me. So when I started speaking, it was very, very loud and scared everybody including myself. That's why I remember

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it very vividly. Ok. Uh ok. So in China, the school system, elementary school is first through sixth grade. Middle school is 7th, 8th and 9th grade. High school is 10th, 11th and 12th grade. So the high school that I was

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in uh 10th, 11th and 12th grade, there are 10 classes per grade, about 50 students per class. So each graduating class is about 500 students when I graduated from that top middle uh high school. Uh I was number two, I was number two too. I was

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number two. So from the graduating class for my year PM. Uh So when I took the college entrance exam, when I got accepted into PU MC, I was the only the first one in the history of my high school to have to have to have ever

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been accepted by pu MC. OK. Pretty smart man. So is what motivated you to study so hard throughout your years of scoring you? Number one, the reason what motivated me were number one, I actually enjoy studying. Number two. This is my only choice. This is my

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only path to life. I have to, I don't have a choice. I have to do well. Yeah. Uh What was your favorite subject in school? I just, you had to cook. Hm. Uh, immunology. Not later on. Ok. Chemistry. Uh ok. So my favorite, so my favorite

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classes were chemistry and uh nature. Um Do we have that in us? Like where you study the, the nature, ecology sort? Yeah. Like ecology. Like a, just study of the nature. Those were my two favorite classes. So, did he live at, did you live, did you

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have to move to go to middle school and high school? Ok. So he lives on campus of the school. Uh So for middle school and high school, I've always lived on campus at the dorm because of my grades were good. The government paid for

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everything. They gave me the highest scholarship and they took care of all of my living expense need. So, for this, I am very grateful to the Chinese government for taking care of me, my studies and my need because my family was very poor. They couldn't afford

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anything. Um So had you uh kept in contact with your sisters through this time. Yes. Yes. Ok. Um, did you ever, did they visit you or did you visit the Ivy to the name? Ok, because they are older than me. It's harder for him to transfer,

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uh, in middle school and high school. My older sister and I were in the same city. So if I needed to buy something, for example, school supplies, my older sister would help me. Um, and how did you decide to um go into PPU MC to apply?

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Oh, uh uh negative as a woman and Children? Ok. Ok. So how I decided to apply for PU MC was uh number one, my class president came and asked me to test for it because no one has ever gotten in from my high school.

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And also that year, Pu MC gave three spots to the entire state. And I was asked by the class president to test for it to bring honor to school. And my original decision was uh medicine agricultural along that route. I wanted to discuss with my older

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sister, but she was sent away to the country. So I just had to make a decision. So I made that decision because I was asked to do it and it was along the path of what I was thinking about studying. This is my addition. So in

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China, a lot of things, especially the generation that my parents' generation, the time that they grew up in the government has done a great job Chinese government to drill in. You. Bring honor to the country. Bring honor. Do you remember Mulan? Ok. Bring honor to the

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country, bring honor to the village, bring honor to the family, right? So it's about bring honor. So the school that my dad was at, basically, it's his second home because he pretty much grew up there. So it's about bring honor to the school. Ok. So that's

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like very high pressure. Um So you also felt very happy when you got in? Ok. Yeah. Uh uh I'm very happy but my sister is uh not happy or for you need 80 years for uh so I was very happy with when I got the admission

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letter, but my old older sister was not happy. She complained that it's eight years. It's too long. It's too difficult. Why did you choose such a hard road? But I was very happy. So you still decided to go. So what do your classmates think? Because you

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were the first one to get into pu MC? Just number one. So my classmates were very happy also my counselor. So in China, each class you are assigned, a teacher is assigned as a counselor for that class. Oh, never mind the counselor for the whole

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school and talk to. My father said that we're very happy for you. Thank you for bringing the honor to our school. And then we expect you to study very hard and do very well. And continue to bring honor to the school. So, did you have any

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mentors in high school? Like teachers who looked over you? No, I did not have any. Um So uh then you went to after PU MC uh or during P MC, you met your wife and then you're both. Uh So, ok. So do they um they were

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class, wait, were you classmates? Oh, ok. So, uh I was one year earlier than my wife but because of Cultural Revolution, three classes were graduated at the same time, 1966 right? 68. So in 1968 because it's an eight year program in

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1968 3 classes were graduated together because of Cultural Revolution. Um And did they send you to uh to like on purpose, like together on purpose or did it just happen? Ok. Uh uh ok.

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So um this is not a typical graduation. So December 3rd, 1968 the school released a name and where people released a list where everyone's assigned to. So, and then we have until the end of December to get to wherever we were assigned to. Otherwise we don't

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get paid. So my wife and I got married on December 17th. We got the list. December 3rd, we got married December 17th and we got to Guizhou before the end of December because we're told that's what you have to do. And that was our graduation when

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we got the list that was our graduation. And so let me see. So they each chose Guizhou. OK. OK. OK. OK. Let me translate. So in order to answer your question, uh my wife and I did not get to choose where we

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were sent to. But prior to the list was released on December 3rd, they did ask those of us who are in the um relationship. Hang on, hang on. Let, let, let me translate. OK, let me stop, stop, stop guys. Let me get this straight prior to

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the assignment was given, they send out a form, ask those of us who are in a relationship to fill out a form who's in a relationship with whom. So those who are in the relationship to be married can request to be sent to the same city

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or same place. But then you don't get to choose where you're sent to. So we filled out the form, let them know we have applied for the marriage license, we intend to get married and we would like to be sent to the same place. So early

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December, the date can't remember exactly early December date when we received the list, we were glad we were sent to the same place, but we did not get to choose where we needed to be sent to. Yeah. Ok. Um So what kind of memorable experiences did

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you have in Guizhou? Ah uh Just there's a so to before I share with you a memorable experience the first thing I want to share with you is that Guizhou was uh uh

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it was a very poor place. They had this famous saying they were no. And the better and the weather was bad, the natural geography and the natural environment was also poor. There were no more than three days. There were sunny days. There were no three miles

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by the where the land is flat because it's in the mountain area at the beginning of the mountain area. So it's very hard to grow things because you need fertile soil. So there were no fertile soil. And the last sentence is, and no one had more

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than three dollars in the pocket. Oh, sorry. And no one had more than 30 cents in their pocket. Yeah. So no more than three days. There were sunny days. No more than three miles. There were flat uh fertile soil and no one had more than 30

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cents in their pocket. So the community that we were sent to, especially the community hospital that we had to serve. That community had over 10,000 people but was very limited. A clinic. It's not a hospital clinic, a local small clinic that's where we were sent to.

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Uh uh OK. So um this is the hospital that we went to not hospital clinic that the when we were sent to Guizhou to that community to that town, measles were going around. And during that time

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in China, there was no vaccine against measles. So when Children get measles very quickly, it turns into pneumonia. By the time you get to pneumonia, a lot of times they will die. But because we had stethoscope and we were educated at the best medical school. So

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we able to listen to their lungs and we can catch it at a much earlier age. The second we can catch it, then we give them antibiotics and we gave them IV. So we saved a lot of children's lives. And at that time, the parents because

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it's in the country and they had to farm the land during the day. So when they come home, that's when they hear the Children crying and Children are sick. So I was working out pretty much every night because that's when all the parents come get me.

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And once I save one child's life, the word got around quickly that we need doctor shen. So I was pretty much working just every night overnight, saving these children's lives. So there's a tradition in that town when, when you save someone's life, that life belongs to

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you. So uh how they do it is that these Children would recognize you as their godfather. So I collect. So I was being godfather by many Children and they would, so these families would bring me whatever gifts they could, it could be noodles, it could be

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eggs, it could be just simple food, but they just wanted to express their gratitude. I'm getting emotional because I'm here. That's for the first time. But for all these, we refused because we cannot do that. Otherwise we could work. They are if you accept the one

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kids as your uh scanners and then there are lots of different things. So I told him we do not accept anyone, but we just think they are all the same. They are all our patience and all the gift. Say no, thank you. That's it. Otherwise you

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could not do things very correctly. So we just say no at the no, thank you at the beginning and then just uh it make them make ourselves safe. So we turn down all of those requests and also we turn away all the gift because those people

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don't have much to begin with. And also this way, it's easier to treat everyone fairly and equally. Ok. How long was the measles the measles outbreak or around the 43 to 4 months? So the measles outbreak last 3 to 4 months in that local area. Um

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And so after the Measles outbreak, uh did you also have to continue working at night? Just because the parents wouldn't bring back uh what, what was give you a little? So we lived at the clinic um upstairs because the clinic, it was a house in the

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picture that I showed you everyone else were local at the end of the day, they get to go home. We only get to go upstairs. So when the sick people, they bring them, when we hear the dog bark, we have to get up and see the

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patients because we were living at the clinic because we didn't have a home. That was our home. Um So what was their income? Uh 42 our income was 42.5 RMBR and B is a Chinese currency. So in today's in today's divided by six, So six RMB

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is equal to $1. So about $7 a month per person. Oh by that time, maybe it oh back then it's probably $3 because it's, it was worth so at that time, it's probably equivalent to $3 a month per person per patient. 42 divided by three is

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12 0 divided by three. OK. Yeah. Ok. Sorry. So divided by three. So back then the currency exchange is three RMB is $1. So about $14 us dollars per person per month. Three Starbucks. Um and was this clinic like already built for you before you came?

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Uh ok. So the building uh the community clinic was built in 1958. It was made up made out of dirt and wood. So it's already been around and when we got there. So we were prior to

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us coming in 1968 December 1968 for the last decade. It's all traditional Chinese medicine, local traditional Chinese medicine. We were the first Western medicine, trained physicians. And we were given one room upstairs as our home. Um Did you ever have any conflict with traditional Chinese medicine?

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Good question uh was uh yes they did. They asked me how to listen, how to, yeah, they asked me a lot how to listen to the lung, how to listen to the heart. Disagree. You know how to make uh recognize

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the first uh hard um noise and say, oh, they, they asked, they, they did not ask him, they just ask me, OK, but just him learn the Chinese, they learn the traditional medicine from them, but not me. So the original question is, did you have any

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conflict with the local traditional Chinese medicine doctors? And how, how did you resolve them? So my father's answer was no, I did not have any conflict because we were sent there to learn from the locals. So I was a good student. Uh They taught me how

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to do traditional Chinese medicine. I wrote them on little sheets of paper and I taped them around the wall in my room. So I learned what, how they do things so that my mother cut in. But they did learn from me. So they learned how to

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listen to the lung, how to listen to the heart from my mother. When my father learned their traditional Chinese ways, they learned the western ways from my mother. So did you practice traditional Chinese medicine? Uh I learned how to but I never did because it's not

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my area of specialty. OK. Um So then after practicing you, you were relocated. Um and then can you describe that process? Ok. Oh uh uh uh uh OK.

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So let me translate what my dad just said. So in 19, at the end of 1972 the province authority of the Guizhou Province gave uh hospital, medical, medical school, medical school, 32 spots to um because they reopened a higher education, the the medical school education, but

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they need teachers. So remember the medical institute was a transplant from another city. So the students I brought over got accepted in 1965 but they didn't learn much because Cultural Revolution uh cultural Revolution started in 1966. So I started in 1961. My wife started in 1962.

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So we were the last group that actually learned all this medical knowledge. So the first chairman of who's in charge of the hospital came to us to ask us to go teach the medical school students because we were one of the very few educated ones that

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could truly teach the day they came, I was out seeing patients. My wife was at the clinic. If you want a little bit more story, I can tell you a little bit more. Do you want mama? Let's focus on that. I will bring, no, no, no,

00:49:12.810 - 00:51:47.909

I will bring you back in the future. OK. OK, it's possible. So, translation of my mother's add-on. So when they came down to the county clinic, they didn't tell us uh what they were there for.

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They said they were there to uh study the local hospital clinic situation. So what they wanted was my husband because my husband's background is very poor. So poor background in China at that time is considered good background. So they only wanted my husband. But after spending

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two days at the clinic, the person who's in charge shared with me that he was also very impressed with my clinical knowledge. He's gonna go back and apply for one more spot for, for uh for you and for you to come as accompanying family member. Then

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as a family, the both of you can come. If I take just your husband, now you will never have a chance to come into the city. So could you wait a month? Let me apply for the company, family companion. Then both you and your husband can

00:52:42.095 - 00:52:57.045

come to uh medical school. So my mother said yes, of course. So they, so they waited a month and they both left and then my brother and I were left in the country. I I've heard of that story. I was one in three when we were

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left back in the country for about a year. Um And then you were able to get into the graduate program to study immunology, immunology, and microbiology and immunology. Um and then how are those years studying? Uh It's uh, well, did you, what

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the project? Too much? Too much? OK. So the question is, did you wait, what was the original question? Did you enjoy learning or like, what, what were those years like? Ok. What, what were those years like? So, my dad's answer was um those were very rewarding

00:54:13.570 - 00:54:30.879

years because during those years I studied the immunology and microbiology. Both subjects were completely new to me, especially a lot of the knowledge coming straight out of us. I've never heard of before. I've never learned before. So to me, it was very rewarding. I really enjoyed

00:54:30.889 - 00:56:30.169

those years. Uh uh anybody uh uh uh master project uh uh it's too technical, it's too technical. This is not a science interview. OK. So uh in 1975 to 1976 during that time, the

00:56:30.179 - 00:56:53.459

Nature Magazine published a paper on monoclonal antibodies. My mentor for my master program happened to have studied this subject in Europe and I was very lucky to study under this mentor. So my four years of master degree in immunology and microbiology, my focus was on monoclonal

00:56:53.469 - 00:57:12.719

antibodies. At the end of those four years, I published two paper along with my mentor were very important papers in the equivalent of the Chinese science magazine. So in the Western World, Nature and Science are the most prestigious journals that you can publish your scientific discoveries.

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So this was the equivalent of Science in China. I I was able to publish two papers. Next question, Priscilla, I won't bother with all the details. I ask you a question. Um So were you communicating with your mentor in English or in the mentor? Is Chinese?

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Ok, so it's all in Chinese, it's all Chinese? Ok. Um And then were you learning English along the way or did you learn English when you came to the United States? Uh I learned English in college because when we were in college at Peking University English

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was a mandatory 2nd 2nd language to study.