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Today is July 2, 2021. My name is Chelsea Li. And we are here with Mr. Gee Kwok. And we will be conducting a full length virtual

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interview. So thank you so much for being here today and let's get started! Let's start with your early life. Where and when were you born? I was born in Hong Kong in 1941.

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Yes, the time of the Japanese War. How would you describe the household and neighborhood you grew up in? Uh, when I was little, my grandfather was doing pretty well.

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So we live in a very nice neighborhood. Yeah, so what were your parents' occupation? Uh, I was raised by my grandfather and my grandmother during the war. My father and my mother was in

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mainland China. So I didn't get to know them until after the war. What would you say were some of the values that your parents emphasized during your upbringing? Uh, they have very little influence upon me, because I got to know them after the war.

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And I spent most of my early childhood with my grandparents. So you mentioned that during your early childhood, it was during the war? How would you say that influenced your—do you have recollection of that at all?

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Now when I was about four years old, the-the war concluded, and my grandfather bought a—that time we bought apartments in Hong Kong, and we live in a very good area.

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So it was a happy childhood until when I was nine, and my grandfather died. Um, do you have any siblings? Uh, I have two older sister and one younger sister.

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Okay. And then—are they—were they also born in Hong Kong? Well, I got to know them after the war. So I spent very little time with them, really. Because during the high school year, I was extremely busy.

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So, we spent very little time and right after graduate from the high school, I left Hong Kong. Mm. I see. Did you leave alone or with your family?

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I came here by myself, one person with $2,000. Wow. I guess we can circle back to that later. But how about your parents? How did they meet? I have no idea.

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I think, I think according to what the—my grandparents told me, they married when they're very young in the Chinese fishing village.

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I think my mother was 14 or my father was 16 or something like that. I just heard it from my grandfather. I see. Yeah.

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So when-when did you move to the US? Or is that where you moved? I left Hong Kong in 1959 by myself and came to this country. I see. And then what-what made you move to the

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US? Well, I went to a Christian kindergarten, Christian elementary school, and Christian or Baptist high

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school in Hong Kong. And in 1950s, a lot of graduates from high schools in Hong Kong, they want to come to the United States after high school graduation, because there was just only

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one university in Hong Kong. It's extremely difficult to get in there. You have to get A, you have to well prepared to take the examination be able to go to the

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Hong Kong University. So most of the high school graduates want to come to the United States or Canada or Australia, the British colonies.

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Mm. Yeah. And what were your first experiences in the US like? Did you have any challenges like the language? Yes, a lot of language problem at the beginning.

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I went to a Chinese high school, Pui Ching, were very strong in mathematics, chemistry, and physics, but were very weak in the English, especially the conversation will kind of barely make it through the interviews in the

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US Consulate. I see. And what were some like cultural shocks that you experienced? Now, there was nothing really a shock to me. I just have to learn the language and be able to communicate

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with the teacher and the students at Wake Forest University. Because when I first came, it took me a while to get used to the American way of speaking.

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If they speak too fast, I won't be able to fo-follow them. As a matter of fact, I took the English One three times. I keep failing it, and the Dean of the College

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allowed me to drop it without penalty. And took it the second time and failed, and took it the third time I got a D, barely pass. So, I had to struggle very hard to go to the English 1-2-3-4.

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That was extremely difficult at that time. Yeah, so you just mentioned you attended Wake Forest University for your undergraduate degree? What was your—what was your major?

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I graduate with double majors in chemistry and mathematics, with distinction in mathematics. And also I was extremely interested in computer, because Wake Forest University get a grant from the National Science

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Foundation in 1962. And we had IBM 1620. I was the first student who were allowed to touch their computer to play Tic Tac Toes.

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And I was so afraid they will do something to me and Professor Dr. says, "Don't be afraid, they won't bite you." Yeah, so what made you choose these majors specifically, like what interested you about

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these? Well, as I told you, I went to Pui Ching High School. This very—this school is very strong in chemistry, physics, and mathematics. So we are way—in fact, we have

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a one year ahead of the college level when I came. So in my freshman year, I was straight A because the professor's amazed the Chinese student can makes 100. Everybody is flunking the chemistry and mathematics you know, and

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I was top of the class. As a matter of fact, one of my professor wrote to the Dean of the College saying he never seen somebody so-so bright in chemistry, you know. In fact, he helped me get

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a scholarship later on in Wake Forest. Wow. Earlier you mentioned you came to the US with only a few thousand dollars. So, did you have to work while also going to school? And what was that like balancing everything?

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Yes. In the first year, I had no problem because it does not cost $2,000 a year. But later on in the second year, because I didn't make much money in the summer, you know, in 1960.

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So I ran out of money. Flat broke zero. Yeah. So what did you do then? Did you look for jobs to do while you were attending school?

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Well, I pray. I'm a Christian, I pray hard and say, "Oh, God, what I'm going to do?" So somehow it clicks. And I went to the Dean's Office and talk to the Dean of the College. At that time, the Dean of the College is called

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Dr. Allen Dyer. I said, "Dr. Dyer, I ran out of money." He said, "Why do you come to me you run out of money?" And he was silent for a few minutes and I was very embarrassed.

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And then he say, "Okay, I'm going to find somebody else to help me then." So I sort of start want to stand up. He was say, "Ah, wait a minute. Sit down. I, I

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get something in the drawer for you." So he open up a drawer and pick up $10. “This is a $10 I got yesterday from Kirby's mother.” Kirby is one of the Jewish boys whose mother come from New York to visit him and gave Dr.

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Dyer $10 to give somebody who really need the money. I say, "Well, I need money." And so he gave me that $10 and then he called the old lady downstairs in the cafeteria, Mrs. Owens, say, "It's a Chinese guy who need a job in

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a cafeteria." So I got $10 to eat and also the cafeteria to help put the desserts and-and the cafeteria is a food lines, put the syst—or bring the stuff from ice box and put it on top the ice for

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the people to pick it up on the way to pay for the food. So I got a job in the cafeteria. And I continue my study. Yeah. Did you enjoy your experience at Wake Forest University?

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And, I guess, what was your favorite and least favorite part of undergrad? I enjoy my-my college life, even though I don't have much money. But some of the people over there are

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very, very nice to me, especially the Southern Baptists in, in my church and also the professors, you know, they're very friendly and very helpful. Give you a few examples.

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On Sunday morning, they have a deacon come to the campus, pick up the kids to go to the Sunday school and prepare the donuts, the coffee at lunchtime. At least one of the deacons, American families of a church have invited me to their

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home for fried chicken, something good to eat. And then in the evening, the deacons of the North Baptist Church go to campus and pick up the students that go to the college student fellowship.

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So on Sunday, I've no problem with three meals as breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You met your wife in September of 1967 at Wake Forest.

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And then you guys got married in October of 1968. Can you tell me— Oh, June of 1968. Okay, can you tell me the story of how you-

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you guys met? Oh, there's a very interesting story. I told this to my daughter the other couple of weeks ago. And then she immediately contacted the Rice University say I—we got some story to share.

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Okay, 1967, my wife got a very good scholarship called—from Li Foundation from New York. And she was the number one student at the

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Graduate School of National Taiwan University. She got a Li Foundation, and she end up going to Wake Forest University to study for first master degree in English.

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And she came in September, the only Chinese girl on campus. There fourteen Chinese boys. At that time I was working the Bowman Gray School of Medicine.

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It's about four miles away from the campus. And I just go visit the campus from time to time to visit some of the old friends and talk about this Chinese girl from Taiwan. So I received a lot of good reports about her.

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But I didn't get to date her until two months later. By late October, yeah. And then I figured out, “There got

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to be a way to be able to date her.” So I look at the Bible see what Jesus said. And Jesus said, "Where your money is, is where your heart is." That means

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if Marion's money's in my pocket, her heart would be in my pocket, right? So I went to the library, looked her up. I say, "Hey, and I ran out of money. I don't get paid from the medical

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school until the end of the month. So let me borrow $100." She look at me, said, "Oh, no, it's too much money." I say, "Well, I'll pay you back two-in two-two weeks

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after I get paid." And she said, "Okay, let me go back and check with my roommate Caroline Snider and see what she thinks. And come back tomorrow.” So the day after that, I went to the library and talk to her again.

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She say, "Well I talked to Caroline, she said at most I can let you borrow 50." Now okay, I borrow $50. And then she write note—long notes, and I had to sign my name to get that $50 to borrow from her and promised that

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I will definitely return her the $50 after I get paid. So I took the money; after two weeks, I went to the library, look her up and I say, "Since you're so kind let me borrow $50, let me take up—take you out for lunch—for dinner.

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And now return you the money." And she said the money is in my pocket. So she agreed to go out with me to go eat dinner at one of the best restaurants in Winston Salem. And from then on, we start dating.

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Yeah. So what was your dating experience like? And how did you know when you guys got married, that you had found the right person? I have heard a lot of good reports about Marion since she arrive at

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campus from all the boys on campus. And also somehow I was determined to get to know her and I just feel this is right guy—was right person in the first

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sight. I don't have to have a second thought. So, well... somehow it was a romantic dating experience. And we had a really good time because Wake Forest is situated in a very

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beautiful environment. The-the garden, they call it Reynold Garden, donated by the RJ Reynold Tobacco Company, is very beautiful. And that's our favorite place to

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go to visit during our dating time. So I was the only boy that has the Mustang 2 1898 automatic. And I was able to

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take her to all the places I want to in the Winston Salem and also in the vicinities. And the dating experience was very, very good. I still from time to

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time to reminiscing to—think about those good old days-good old days, yes. In fact, I have all kinds of PowerPoints and pictures all collected and saved in my computer.

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I saw the PowerPoint that you sent us. It was very very cute. Yeah. And what was the wedding like between... The wedding was completely arranged

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by the women of the church. At that time, Norwich Baptist Church, as they call it, WMU—Woman Mission Union—they have all the ladies they doing

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the missionary work. And they were very kind to me. They arranged the wedding, the wedding reception, ticket, everything. And we have

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full host-host families took care of all the wedding parties, the bridesmaids, and a maid of honor and all that. So everything was free. I-I didn't pay a dime.

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They didn't—they-they were very nice to me, so everything was arranged. Even wedding cake was pre-arranged. Everything was arranged. That's really nice. Yeah extremely nice.

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Yeah. And what did you do after you graduated from Wake Forest? After I graduated from Wake Forest, I had—I 20, so I was unable to work. I must stay in school or have related to school somehow.

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First, I went to work in Bowman Gray School of Medicine as a programmer, because the early day very few people get in the right computer program. I start learning computer programming in 1962. So by the time I graduate, it was ‘63 already.

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So I was able to get a programming job at the medical school. They- they only pay me by hour, two dollar and quarter per hour. By that time, it was pretty good income, because I have

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very little expenditure. And then in the summer of 1965, there was a teacher from Virginia to go to Bowman Gray to do the summer work.

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He told me about community colleges in Virginia, they need teachers, especially teachers of mathematics and chemistry. Very few teacher can teach both subjects.

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And I happened to be made double major in chemistry and mathematics. And I asked that teacher to introduce me, line me up with one of the community

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college in Roanoke, Virginia. So immediately I was hired. So I went up to Virginia, taught there for two years in

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Virginia, West Virginia. That community college really need me, so I start with a part-time lecturer and end up with the full-time faculty. And the principal of the school

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helped me to get a green card, they call it permanent status—permanent resident status from the immigration office. So in 1966, I was able to get a permanent

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residence, and also work full-time for the community college. In 1967, I also—I decided to go back to Winston, Salem to finish my master's degree thesis to complete my degree.

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So I left Virginia, I returned back to Wake Forest University and get a very good programming job again at medical school. At that time I use a Fortran

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programming doing the medical research. They call it tumor registry and cancer research in the school—Bowman Gray School of Medicine, must pay very well. And there was in the summer of

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1967, it's a few months before Marian came to Winston Salem, I was working in Bowman Gray. And at that time, I already have completed my thesis and waiting for graduation.

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But I still visit the campus from time to time to get in touch with the Chinese friends. Did I answer your question? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So did you do a PhD after you graduated or you got your masters?

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Okay, my second master's degrees is computer science at the University of Melbourne. I got married in 1968. And my wife said, "You are so good at computer, you could get a PhD

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degree, continue on." And I say, "Okay." So I applied University of Maryland, they gave me a very good assistantship. So I went to the Computer Center of University of Maryland, and the system

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at the University of Maryland's UNIVAC 1100 computer with exact eight operating system and the DMS 1100 database management system, everything is exactly the same as what they use now here in Johnson Space Center, identical.

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So I learn to use the computer is the operating system, use the all the software and help the admission office at the University of Maryland to develop a student

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information database. And after I got my master's degree, I was working on my PhD degree and Lockheed Electronics put out a very big ad on the bulletin

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board. They want to find somebody like me with the experience with the UNIVAC computer with all the software. And I found, "Hey that's interesting." At that time, my wife was not feeling really well with the allergy in-in Maryland.

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She wanted to get out of there. And I was in the middle of my thesis. But anyway, she want me to leave the place. I said "Okay, let me talk to the people in Lockheed." And

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then I send him a postcard and in a couple of days, they call me long distance from Houston to College Park, Maryland. They say they want to invite me down here for an interview. So in 1973,

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I came down here for an interview, we talked about the computer system for about 45 minutes, immediately offer—made me an offer with so much money for the poor graduate student.

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I get good reviews. Now if I get two PhD degree, I still couldn't get that kind of money. They really need me, because getting 12—use the computer system is exactly the same as

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I working on it. And University of Maryland up in Maryland College Park sold—they made me a very attractive offer. So I call my wife say, "What we gonna do? They'll give me so much money, and we need money to buy a

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house.” And also at that time, I already have two kids, my son is three and my daughter is one and a half. And my wife want to get out of College Park.

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I say "Okay, let's give up the PhD for now. Do it later and accept the job." So we move down to Houston, I think a couple of days before Labor Day, came down to Houston, have been in

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Houston ever since then. Wow. Yeah, so were you ever able to finish your thesis? Your PhD thesis? No, I never because I so much involved in the church. Other than working for NASA, all my time is in the

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Chinese church. Mhm. Yeah, so when you were in—at the University of Maryland, what did your kids and your wife do? While you— My wife get her second master's degree in the library

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science—specialize in children literature, to read the children's book to my son and my daughter. And my son’s only three, my daughter's only one. So my wife stay

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home and keep an eye on them. Yeah. So when you first moved to Houston, what was your experience like? What did the city look like back then? Well, at that time, Houston wasn't as big as it is right now.

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And Clear Lake City is about 30 miles away from downtown. So I practically live in Clear Lake City. I go downtown, we go to the Jones Hall into

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the Theater District to attend a concert in the drama—and watch the drama. But most of time I'm in Clear Lake City. But other than the Johnson Space Center, there's not much in Clear Lake City at that time.

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Very remote. And later on, I start seeing the building. Lots of building residential areas start to develop. Back in the 70s, NASA was developing the shuttle program, so a lot of scientists moved in.

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I bought my first house in 1974 for 31,000. And then after three and a half years, it was appreciated to 52. That was when I sold the house and

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collected $20,000 of equity and bought me this two story house I'm living in right now in Middlebrook. So, I'm doing very well financially. Yeah. And did you ever get a chance to visit the Chinatown that was

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in downtown Houston? Uh, when I first came, the Chinatown was not in the current location. It is in a downtown area near the Highway 59.

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And the old Chinatown is kind of small, and only have a few grocery store and a few restaurants. But there was only thing we had at that time. But later on in the Bellaire area, they developed the very large

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Chinatown. And so we start to go to the new Chinatown. And the old Chinatown gradually become a Vietnamese town. Most of the Vietnamese people move in there. I see.

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Is that where you would go get your groceries often? In the old Chinatown? Uh huh. Before the COVID-19, I go there every week, because my son lives in Bunker Hill on the other side of the Chinatown.

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I'll bring my wife to my son's home to help with the grandchildren on Monday. I go to Chinatown to play chess and eat in the restaurants everyday for 12 years. Then the COVID-19 and then I stopped

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going there. Yeah. What about in the 1970s? Would you—would your family, like, buy groceries in Clear Lake or go to the Chinatown?

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Well, in the 70s, there's also a Chinese grocery store called Hong Kong in the Frenchwood area, I think is Scottsdale area. We go there because closer, but once a while we go to Chinatown.

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It's a little bit distance over there. The Chinese restaurants are really good in the new Chinatown. So from time to time we go there to Yum Cha, Yum Cha means the dim sum.

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Yeah. Oh that’s cool. So what was it like to work for Lockheed? Did you enjoy it? And how many years did you work for them? I worked for Lockheed for about

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three and a half years. And I was in a very high position. And after that, Lockheed lost the contract, and I went to Philco Ford for one year.

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And then computer science corporation got the project. They got a project from Lockheed and they're looking with some guy like me, who know the operating system, know the lab UNIVAC system, know the database

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management system. So they make me an offer as a supervisor, the first Chinese supervisor supervising seven programmers, the computer science corporation.

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I worked there for a few years and I also get a part-time job teaching at night, teaching database management in University of Houston Clear Lake Campus in the evening. All my lecture room is filled up with Chinese

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and foreign students want to learn computer. So I was very welcomed every-every time I go to the campus, in the—they call the—in the bio building at that time. And I work for computer

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science corporation for a couple years. In 1980, Singer Links company, they hired me as a senior

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system analyst, and I was the staff to the director of the shuttle program. The way up there, it’s very high position with very high pay. And because I specialize in

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simulation when I was in high school—in graduate school in Melbourne, Single Links doing simulation, shadow simulation, visual simulation. So I was hired by the-the-the upper management.

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I was the only Chinese in upper management in 1981. And at that time, I already had my citizenship, so I was able to do well on the top secret shuttle program.

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That’s nice. And so what did you do after that up until retirement? Well, I-I told you I get very much involved in Houston Chinese church and I was one of the three founders of the Clear Lake Chinese church in 1981.

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And after I went to several missionary journeys, I have six missionary journeys, I decided to retire in 19—at the end of 1997.

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I retired from the computer work and then go to the Dallas Theological Seminary to get my third Master Degree in biblical studies.

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And again, I graduate with honor and I spent a lot of time with the Bible. And in 19—2001-2001, I was ordained as the elder of the church.

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And I really enjoy working in the church environment, enjoyed a missionary journeys. The first time I went to a missionary journey is in 1992 to mainland China.

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And then after that, in 1997, then went to Indonesia in Java. I passed by Singapore to Java, Indonesia. And I went up—I went to Brazil twice,

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in Novi Casue. And I went to Taiwan and work with the minority group in the mountain one time. And I also went to,

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to Jimjee—Jim-Jimmy University in Fuqing. They invited me to teach Oracle, but they're in their computer center. So I-I brought my laptop and the computer center just took my laptop and just copy everything, because at that time,

00:35:35.560 - 00:35:54.670

they didn't know anything about Oracle, the computer software. And I give them free lecture, 12 free lectures, was treated like a king because it was so nice to me, you know, you want me to go back and lecture some more. They have people eating

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with me they are feast—round table, they get the professor to eat with me. And I have-I have-I have very good accommodation. Also, they have the very beautiful accommodation place for the-for the visitors from United

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States. Just a lot of fun. Sounds really fun. So you have two children, Sue and— Yeah, I have a son, Robert Kwok, that you can probably go to Google

00:36:28.790 - 00:36:43.460

and Google him “Kwok” and then you know about his magnificent, successful law firm. He has about 50 employees or the lawyers and thousands of cases, very successful trial lawyer.

00:36:43.950 - 00:36:57.530

And my daughter, Susan. She is—has her own real estate company. They are all in Houston. Yeah. My son has four kids, three boys and one girl, and my daughter has three boys.

00:36:58.510 - 00:37:13.960

They are all very athletic. When were your children born? And why did you decide to have children at that time? Well, I was—I married in

00:37:14.780 - 00:37:27.470

June 1968. My wife was pregnant right away. And Robert was born at the end of February 1969.

00:37:29.390 - 00:37:42.220

Who want to have children? So there wasn't any second thought. My daughter was born in Silver Spring, Maryland. So that was very natural. Yeah.

00:37:42.360 - 00:38:03.660

So what did you like most about having children and what was the most challenging part? The most challenging part is that I was able to spend time

00:38:05.220 - 00:38:22.590

with them. By their growing up from the time they are baby all the way up to in the—well, not just teenagers, also going into graduate school. I spend a lot of time

00:38:22.590 - 00:38:43.570

with my son, a lot of time with my daughter, especially my son. At that time when my-my-my son was a baby, I was the one that took care of him.

00:38:44.590 - 00:39:01.020

I change the diapers and I have to feed her and all that, because there's no help. And Robert and I have a very, very intimate, very close relationship. I read some book about how to raise

00:39:01.020 - 00:39:19.860

children. And so all the way along, when he was growing up, I spent a lot, a lot of time with Robert. And Susan is the second one and my wife spend more time with her than I am.

00:39:20.350 - 00:39:31.720

But both of them, you know, we go to all the concerts, all the Atlantic football games. My son's a football player. My daughter is a basketball, volleyball player,

00:39:32.010 - 00:39:40.750

we go to all the games. We spend a lot of time with them. And also they are very much involved in the youth group in the church too.

00:39:40.750 - 00:39:56.720

So, your children went to Chinese school at Nassau Bay Baptist Church. What inspired you to enroll your children in this Chinese school?

00:39:58.930 - 00:40:18.380

Well, at that time, Clear Lake City has a Chinese school already. We're not the original founder of the Chinese school, but the school used the facility of the Nassau Bay Baptist Church.

00:40:20.190 - 00:40:36.270

And we just brought the children over there to attend the Chinese school. But only couple years, my wife become the principal of the Chinese school, and she ran it, she ran the school.

00:40:36.350 - 00:40:51.970

You also sent a picture of your family in an amusement park in Texas. And it was like an annual trip to the amusement park.

00:40:53.180 - 00:41:07.260

When did this tradition start? And what fun rides do you—does your family go on? Oh, this tradition start ever since I get married. At least once a year, we'll have a family vacation every year,

00:41:08.270 - 00:41:24.920

at least one picture per year for the album. Sometimes I use it for Christmas cards. So we–we start collecting the best picture of the year since

00:41:25.340 - 00:41:39.690

1967, when I first start dating my wife, and the first year, second year on, and so now. So every year, we have a collection of pictures, and we select—sometimes we select the best one for the

00:41:39.750 - 00:41:56.070

Christmas card. So you also taught computer science at the University of Houston. And so what did you enjoy most about teaching? I really love teaching.

00:41:57.100 - 00:42:09.350

When I was in Roanoke, Virginia, I taught at a community college. I taught chemistry and taught mathematics. And I always loved math and chemistry

00:42:09.670 - 00:42:23.970

since I was in high school. And as a professor of the subjects, you know, I enjoy talking to those students, you know, they

00:42:24.230 - 00:42:37.830

get so–so confused a lot of times, especially in the chemistry lab, you know. One time my lab assistant, he–he—well, he read the manual and the manual was misprint.

00:42:38.630 - 00:42:54.980

Instead of using 0.1 gram of chemical, he used 1 gram of chemical and end up with a lot of precipitations. And people were scared, "What happened?" Yeah, because it was misprinted on the manual.

00:42:56.190 - 00:43:08.510

Teaching is a lot of fun. I-I enjoy teaching. I teach Sunday school, I teach the—in fact, I was in charge of youth group when my children were teenagers in the church.

00:43:11.120 - 00:43:27.090

It is fun to work with the young people. You're also a section supervisor at the Computer Science Corporation. Could you talk a bit more about this position and your role?

00:43:29.180 - 00:43:43.370

I have to supervise the programmers, because they don't know anything about the project. The project was an old project I used to work on at Lockheed, so I

00:43:43.580 - 00:43:58.990

would tell them what to do and what kind of program they need to do. If they cannot do it, I'll help them to do it, because I know that—the system very well. And to supervise some people sometimes very hard.

00:43:58.990 - 00:44:14.060

If they don't know what to do, they don't–don't—not qualified. So Computer Science Corporation is very smart to find somebody who really knew how to do it. If the programmer failed to do it, I'll be

00:44:14.060 - 00:44:28.520

the one that having to finish it up on time. So I'm kind of like coaching them. That's great. So how were you first introduced to Christianity?

00:44:31.160 - 00:44:49.460

I was introduced Christianity I was four or five years old in kindergarten. And in the elementary school, it's a Baptist elementary school called Pui Ching, and they have weekly gathering. The teachers go up to—and tell

00:44:49.460 - 00:45:01.990

stories about Bibles, and Pui Ching is a Southern Baptist high school. We have reli-religiou-religious class, religion class.

00:45:02.460 - 00:45:18.880

And in fact was taught by a couple American Baptist missionaries from the United States. I–I learned the Bible when I was in high school and memorized a lot of stuff in—when I was in high school.

00:45:19.770 - 00:45:41.200

And Christianity is—it's a very, very logical and very—to me, is very real and also it's a very practical religion. According to my professor at the Dallas Theological Seminary, it's one of the most

00:45:41.480 - 00:46:00.370

logical theology you can come up with. Because of the knowledge in the Bible, I have the courage to come to the United States by myself.

00:46:01.710 - 00:46:13.580

Psalm 23 verse one: "The Lord is my shepherd. I will lack of nothing and of everything.” And that really helped me for the last 60-some years.

00:46:14.190 - 00:46:26.880

When I don't know what to do, don't have anything, I'll pray and somehow God just opened the door, God just provide. Everything is just gonna be okay.

00:46:27.590 - 00:46:40.000

So it is a lifelong experience. I think Christianity is the key to my success, and also the key for all the blessings I have for me, my family, and my

00:46:40.040 - 00:46:52.150

grandchildren. Yeah. So when you were first introduced when you were like four or five, was the rest of your family also Christian, like your grandparents?

00:46:52.230 - 00:47:04.210

No. I'm the only one in the family that was exposed to Christianity. Yeah. Did they eventually become Christians? Or— No. They are so far away.

00:47:04.210 - 00:47:22.960

And they—I think my second sister, she might be exposed to some of the Bible teaching when she was in elementary school. Yeah, we went to the same elementary school.

00:47:23.400 - 00:47:35.890

I see. Yeah. And what about your wife? When did she become a Christian? She–she went to

00:47:36.530 - 00:47:52.630

Knollwood Baptist Church with me since we start dating, every Sunday. And then a year after we went to University of Maryland, she was baptized in the First Baptist Church of

00:47:54.650 - 00:48:09.440

Washington. Yeah. And so when you first moved to the US, did you immediately find a church to go to? Yes. Cool. And what about— I didn't–I didn't go find a church, the church people come find me.

00:48:10.200 - 00:48:22.600

Oh, that's good. And then, so you mentioned that you went to Houston Chinese Church. So when did you first go to Houston Chinese Church? And how did you hear about that?

00:48:22.890 - 00:48:37.840

When I first came to Houston, there was no—there's only one Chinese church, called the Chinese Baptist Church. It's in downtown Lamar Street. L-a-m-a-r, Lamar Street, downtown Houston.

00:48:39.240 - 00:48:50.780

At that time, most of them speak Cantonese. And I also speak Cantonese, because I'm from Hong Kong. And a group of students from

00:48:51.020 - 00:49:07.430

Taiwan, they speak Mandarin. And they kind of hard to fit into the Cantonese environment. So they borrowed the facility of the church to have the Bible study

00:49:08.300 - 00:49:22.500

in Mandarin. And I got to know those Mandarin-speaking people from Taiwan, because my wife is from Taiwan. I met them probably in

00:49:22.500 - 00:49:42.260

Chinatown or somewhere, and they would invite us to attend the Bible study. And so I got to spend time with them in two places.

00:49:42.260 - 00:49:50.710

One is the Sagemont Baptist Church. Sagemont Baptist Church is very strong at the foreign mission. They–they always—they provided

00:49:50.710 - 00:50:05.070

Chinese students a lot of places to do Bible study, and Sagemont is close to Clear Lake City. And in downtown, I go there once a while that time.

00:50:05.970 - 00:50:22.920

In 1975, this group of people, they started Houston Chinese Church and the second Baptist Church in—South Main Baptist Church, yeah, South Main Baptist Church, allow us to use the

00:50:23.070 - 00:50:43.660

basketball court to start our worship service. And one—I was one of the original member, in 1975. And it only hired Chinese pastors. And subsequently, we have a large congregation, I

00:50:43.660 - 00:51:00.680

was able to build a church in South Main, near the Beltway Eight. And in 1979, became a deacon of the church in charge of the work in Clear Lake

00:51:00.680 - 00:51:19.670

City. And for about four years, it's called the Clear Lake City Fellowship, and I borrow the church building. So first it's Creek Baptist

00:51:19.670 - 00:51:35.810

Church for three months, and then moved to Nassau Bay Baptist Church in Nassau Bay. In 1981, then we set up the Clear Lake Chinese Church; and in

00:51:37.600 - 00:51:53.160

1983, we moved out of the church and went to Clear Lake Bible Church for one year. In 1984, we were in Clear Lake Bible Church. In '85, 1985, we bought our own

00:51:53.440 - 00:52:05.920

church building. Good. So was Sagemont Baptist Church also predominantly Chinese, or was it just like a normal American church? Ah, it's an American church.

00:52:05.920 - 00:52:18.750

I see. Okay, cool. And so how were the services back then? Like at the very beginning of HCC, how many people went, how big was it?

00:52:19.180 - 00:52:36.950

Well, we just used a basketball court. I would say about 100 people in the basketball court. And I was the interpreter for the pastor. Do you still—do you know—do

00:52:38.080 - 00:52:52.960

you still like know the fou-founders of HCC? Yeah, I knew all of them, because we–we start off of nothing. Right, yeah, cool. And I think the basketball court is still there

00:52:54.050 - 00:53:02.090

today. Oh yeah? I think so, yeah. And then they expanded it to become a bigger church. So that's cool.

00:53:04.540 - 00:53:24.750

So when—or why did you decide to build up the Clear Lake Church? Well, I was in charge of the ministry in Clear Lake City. So as a deacon of the Houston Chinese Church,

00:53:28.650 - 00:53:47.900

every week, all the money for the offering will be collected and delivered to downtown, to Houston Chinese

00:53:47.900 - 00:54:05.410

Church. And it end up that there's no money. There's nothing here to develop the church. And later on, we start to have a lot of people coming into Clear Lake City, and the Chinese Church start to—the

00:54:05.410 - 00:54:16.270

fellowship start to grow bigger and bigger, it's over 100 people. And some of the co-workers, you know, they said we–we can have enough people to start a church here.

00:54:18.160 - 00:54:37.770

One of the elders from Wisconsin, he came down here, he say, "Well, we can start a church," that we have enough manpower. So I make a proposal to the council of the Houston Chinese

00:54:37.770 - 00:54:55.550

Church, I say our co-workers' meeting decided that-that we're going to start a church in Clear Lake City with their permission. So we started the church. And at that time, we still don't have any facility, we still using the Nassau

00:54:55.550 - 00:55:11.010

Bay Baptist Church. They have very beautiful chapel, we just use the chapel. Cool. And so how did you first get the funding for Clear Lake? Offering. I see.

00:55:11.810 - 00:55:27.010

Through the members of HCC? No, the offering in Clear Lake City is very, very—how do you say it? Substantial?

00:55:27.650 - 00:55:43.950

A lot? So, we are very rich. Yeah. So I think HCC also helped plant CLCC. So how—what was your role in that whole process?

00:55:45.550 - 00:56:00.300

No, HCC is in downtown. I have to lead the–the whole church in Clear Lake. We start out with 17 people. And we have like a co-workers' meeting, we—every

00:56:01.160 - 00:56:18.580

month we have a large meeting, form a big circle. We decide how to attract people, visit patients, how do we expand our ministry in Clear Lake City? I have to lead them. Yeah.

00:56:19.520 - 00:56:39.880

And who—how did you find the first pastor at Clear Lake? The first pastor is Franklin Lee. He was a pastor at Houston Chinese Church. Oh I see. Okay, so I think we saw that you were ordained as a

00:56:39.880 - 00:56:49.670

Lifetime Elder. Yes. What does that exactly mean? And what is your—what are your like responsibilities as an Elder? I have a whole article about my

00:56:52.280 - 00:57:09.250

duty in the church. For example, visitation, caring, attending all the co-workers' meeting, all the council meeting, making all the major decisions, visit all the newcomers, people in

00:57:09.250 - 00:57:26.500

the hospital, wedding, funeral service. You name it, I have to do it. Cool, and so how long does an Elder term usually last? So what does it mean to be a Lifetime Elder?

00:57:28.130 - 00:57:47.450

Once you ordain, you ordain. Okay, and how often do—does the church ordain a Lifetime Elder? In 20—2001, they ordained two Elders, me and Elder Yuan.

00:57:50.440 - 00:58:07.570

And later on, we ordained an American Elder, William Stayton. That's all. Cool. So, you said that Clear Lake started with 17 people?

00:58:08.360 - 00:58:25.390

How many people go there now? Oh, I'll say around 150. Great. And when did you see the most growth in the congregation? Well, it go up and down, up and down.

00:58:25.590 - 00:58:41.420

When you have a good pastor, then it's going up and pastor go away and it drop. And so up and down, up and down. So I always say the–the best years, we reached about 200 adults,

00:58:42.030 - 00:59:02.500

maybe 100 kids, teenagers. We have Awana program now because we have the new family education building, so we have Awana program, attracted a little bit more people. Yeah. And do you guys have an English and Chinese

00:59:02.940 - 00:59:16.390

congregation, or just Chinese? We have English congregation, we have Chinese congregation, and in Chinese congregation we have the Cantonese people, we have the Mandarin people.

00:59:19.860 - 00:59:29.890

Yeah, and which congregation is bigger? Well, Chinese. I see. Cool. And what about the youth? How big is that?

00:59:29.890 - 00:59:43.990

It's going up and down again. But one time the youth group was very big, now it's shrinking. It depends on the pastor and also depend upon the leaders of

00:59:45.170 - 01:00:08.280

the youth group. So now it's not that big, because of the COVID-19, a lot of people not going to church yet. Yeah. And what are some major changes that you've seen at Clear Lake? Like— Buildings after buildings after buildings, everywhere.

01:00:08.390 - 01:00:19.600

Apartments, a house, you know. A lot of grassland now become shopping centers, so really blooming. Mhm. Yeah, what about at the church?

01:00:21.240 - 01:00:34.380

Well, the church not much change. We just keep expanding and expanding, as we need to have Sunday school and then we expand the building. We need larger parking lot to accommodate all the cars and we have to

01:00:34.450 - 01:00:49.830

build new parking lot, and then we need the Awana program, we need to have large auditoriums, we build family activity center. So as we need something, we start to expand the church about four or five times.

01:00:50.370 - 01:01:04.620

Now we get the whole block. We bought the house in the corner, we tear it down and make it a parking lot, and we also build the large family activity

01:01:04.620 - 01:01:21.190

center, and we can hold Awana program, we have the large concert, yeah, concerts. That's great. Yeah. And how did most of the congregants hear about Clear Lake?

01:01:21.400 - 01:01:32.660

Is it just because they live in the area? Or do people like drive out to go? Most of them are in the neighborhood. Clear Lake City is next to Friendswood, League City,

01:01:34.260 - 01:01:45.680

close enough to Galveston, so we have some people from Galveston to come to worship. They work in the UTMB, the medical

01:01:45.680 - 01:01:59.700

school at Galveston. Some of them, they move to Clear Lake City because of the—they call it the high school system, Clear Creek Independent School District.

01:02:00.890 - 01:02:14.580

So the–the families from Galveston, they prefer to live in Clear Lake and then commute to work, and have their children to study in Clear Lake City. So we have a lot of people from Galveston and League City.

01:02:16.450 - 01:02:29.870

Cool. And what do you think the church will look like in the future? Do you think it'll grow more? Or do you think the numbers will stay about the same? My guess, it's gonna stay the same.

01:02:30.400 - 01:02:40.560

Mhm. Yeah. And what about like the ratio of Chinese to English congregants? Do you think English congregation will grow faster than Chinese congregation?

01:02:41.930 - 01:02:57.990

Maybe become bigger? I hope so. Because we have a very nice Chinese pastor from WHCC, West Houston Chinese church, Allan Chai. Allan Chai used to work with

01:03:00.350 - 01:03:13.630

Pastor Xu in the West—WHCC. And Pastor Chai is a very good preacher. And I think he could do a very good job in Clear Lake. I'm so pleased he come to help us.

01:03:14.250 - 01:03:24.280

So if he stay for the next five years, I can see the potential. Mhm, is he the English pastor? Yes. Okay. I see, cool.

01:03:24.890 - 01:03:42.020

And so what change do you hope to see at Clear Lake Chinese Church? Well, I hope they have new Elders, because I retired at the end of last year. I'm 80 years old, and I don't want

01:03:42.020 - 01:04:00.320

to work too hard. I need to rest and spend more time with the Bible. So far, we have no new Elder. Maybe we have some next year. I don't know. So,

01:04:07.580 - 01:04:22.360

currently, there's been kind of a escalated anti-Asian environment because of COVID. Have you been targeted personally, or do you know about other people that have been negatively affected?

01:04:23.300 - 01:04:39.370

No. All right. So has the church kind of been a support system during like this time, during COVID? Well, the church is not doing very much, because of the COVID, you know?

01:04:39.370 - 01:04:52.800

We use it for small meeting, we are having it right now every week for Sunday worship. And different fellowship group and small group, they also use Zoom, so it's nothing like

01:04:52.800 - 01:05:08.450

in-person gathering. It's just like what we're doing now, just talking on the TV screen. Um and, I guess, do you have a vision of how you want to lead the rest of your life into the

01:05:08.450 - 01:05:24.160

future and where you want to be? Me? I kind of enjoy writing. I hope to be able to write a book, because of all these interesting

01:05:24.160 - 01:05:39.380

stories and adventures I have experienced, and I do have a lot, a lot of material in my computer that I need to go through it. The pictures, the PowerPoints, and the stories, what

01:05:39.470 - 01:05:59.490

goes on the last 60 some years since I came to this country. Time to write, start to write. So this interview is interesting, because I forced myself to write down something in the old time for you, so that when we get on the screen, I

01:05:59.490 - 01:06:11.080

have something to share. We really appreciate that, yeah. A lot of this has come from memory, you know. But a lot is from my computer files.

01:06:11.840 - 01:06:27.200

I found the old pictures on the computer file, back in the 60s, yeah. I do have a lot of stories. Would you like to listen to a story about my three cars, the first three cars?

01:06:30.740 - 01:06:47.360

My first car is a cheap Willis, $100. I bought $100 from a taxi driver in Atlanta, Georgia. And I told him, I say, "I'll buy your car." At

01:06:49.520 - 01:07:05.860

that time I was working in a Chinese restaurant as a waiter. "I'll buy your car if you take me to take the road test in the driver—in the public safety place," and he says, “Okay.” So I went to the driver training school four times and paid him

01:07:05.860 - 01:07:15.980

$35 per hour. At that time, it's a lot of money. And then I pass it and then I got the car. At that time I was in Atlanta, Georgia during the summer.

01:07:17.370 - 01:07:32.050

I drove that car at the end of the summer from Atlanta, Georgia, up to Winston-Salem. Took eight hours. Because every couple hours I stop and put a quart of oil into

01:07:32.400 - 01:07:44.820

the engine, and let it cool down. It could be driving, took eight hours to drive up to Winston-Salem. And I got a job at Bowman Gray School of Medicine as a programmer.

01:07:45.520 - 01:08:03.780

And I bought the four cylinder French Renault, second car, $250. And I was able to drive the car all around North Carolina and South Carolina. And I also drove it to Roanoke, Virginia, through the mountain road.

01:08:05.020 - 01:08:23.020

And then when I went to rural Virginia, I have to commute between Roanoke Valley and Virginia Polytech Institute in Blacksburg, Virginia. Because I was in the student visa, I needed to be in the graduate school.

01:08:23.850 - 01:08:36.420

So in the middle there's Christiansburg Mountain. So I have to get a good car so I can go up the Christiansburg Mountain to the other side, and to Blacksburg.

01:08:38.780 - 01:08:56.370

And I went to the largest Ford Motor Company in Roanoke Virginia, and I saw a beautiful dark green Mustang, brand new, in the showroom.

01:08:57.530 - 01:09:08.030

It was a rainy day, you know? And I told a salesman, "I want to test drive in this car. Is it okay?" And he have to open up a huge, big gate. I drove it out to Roanoke,

01:09:08.090 - 01:09:24.780

and all over the places, mud all over the place—all over the car, and then went back to that showroom. I said, "Okay, I'm gonna buy this car. How much?" “$2,800.” “Oh no problem,

01:09:25.010 - 01:09:40.970

I'll just ask Colonial National Bank to finance it.” So I trade in my Renault, the four cylinder car, because you cannot climb the Christiansburg Mountain, for that brand new Mustang 289

01:09:40.970 - 01:09:56.180

V8 Automatic, and the bank pay for it. I just pay installment. I got the car, I was able to drive between Roanoke, past the Christiansburg Mountain, to Blacksburg, Virginia,

01:09:56.230 - 01:10:10.120

took my graduate course and come back and teach chemistry and mathematics, and I go back and forth for two years. And then I finally get my green card, permanent resident status.

01:10:11.360 - 01:10:25.070

Because I had the Mustang, I was able to go to the places I need to go to maintain my I-20, and also make money to survive. And I also drove the Mustang

01:10:25.770 - 01:10:42.820

from Virginia back to Winston-Salem, to Wake Forest. And because I'm the only guy in the whole campus get a car, it's a brand new car, so make me easier to get a date with my wife.

01:10:44.480 - 01:10:57.220

So the Mustang helped a lot, yeah. So, it's very interesting. In this country, you can start off with zero. When I went to Roanoke, Virginia, I had nothing.

01:10:59.470 - 01:11:16.520

And I was able to borrow money to live for three months, get paid after three months from the community college. I had zero and walk into Ford Motor Company, I bought brand new Mustang, paid by the bank by

01:11:16.520 - 01:11:31.800

installment. So, because of all these experiences, I said you can survive in any situation. With zero dollar, you can go through anything, if you have the Christian belief.

01:11:33.220 - 01:11:44.170

Now, when I ran out of way of continuation, ran out of money, ran out of this, ran out of that, I'm just praying. Things just happen, just open up. It's very interesting.

01:11:46.120 - 01:12:00.220

I taught a lot of stories in my sermons, I preach all over the places and told them all about what happened in the last 60 years. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share with you one of those stories, because I have many of

01:12:00.260 - 01:12:14.830

those in my computer. And I will send you some articles too. Yeah, for sure. We would definitely appreciate that. And that was all of my questions. I don't know if Helen had any more?

01:12:16.310 - 01:12:27.940

Yeah, I think we covered a lot. Thank you so much. Well, I still have some more stories to tell you. Is there time for more stories?

01:12:29.210 - 01:12:49.860

Or you want to stop? No, I think you can—yeah, you can say—tell-tell your stories. Okay, let me think of one good story... When we tried to buy Clear Lake

01:12:50.750 - 01:13:11.720

Chinese Church, a building, we didn't have any money to do the down payment. So we told Clear Lake—no,

01:13:12.070 - 01:13:23.790

Houston Chinese Church that we need money to do the down payment, and borrowed money from the bank to buy the building, the–the building that we have right now at Webster.

01:13:25.470 - 01:13:41.780

And the week before the closing, we got enough money, mostly from Houston Chinese Church, that the pastor came over and gave us a large sum of money.

01:13:42.720 - 01:13:53.020

And one of our deacons, he happened to be a friend of a lady in the Moody National Bank in Galveston. I agreed

01:13:56.810 - 01:14:09.000

to—don't make this a building loan. So we bought the building from the Grace Community Church in Webster. At that time, the building was very small.

01:14:09.000 - 01:14:19.700

We only had a sanctuary and a few classrooms; and only a few months, it's all filled or packed with people. And no place to eat lunch.

01:14:19.700 - 01:14:31.990

We had to stand there to eat. And so the pastor, Pastor Qi, from Macau, he said it's time for expansion. Expansion costs money.

01:14:34.040 - 01:14:49.620

And the interesting part is I never afraid of borrowing money. I-I-I've been borrowing money ever since. So in a council meeting, I say, “Borrow some from the building committee.

01:14:50.310 - 01:15:10.360

So, you just in charge of the expansion project. I'm responsible for money.” They say, "Where do you get the money?" I–I know I can get the money. From 1977, every

01:15:11.560 - 01:15:24.650

Monday morning, 10 o'clock, I bring a lot of money across the street from Singer Links to the small bank across Bay Area Boulevard, deposit the weekly offering.

01:15:25.820 - 01:15:41.270

For four or five years, you know, the banker, he always come out and greeted me, because I was in high position, I'll put on three piece suit and brought in a lot of money to the–to the bank. His name is Harlan,

01:15:41.660 - 01:15:52.030

Mr. Harlan always asked, "Type of coffee? Do you have any needs? The church need any money?" I say, "No, we got plenty of money." But in

01:15:53.090 - 01:16:07.370

1988, I went in there. I say, “Mr. Harlan, can I get something, talk with you? Because of my church need money.” And, "Okay, let's get some coffee, and then let's go into my office and talk." So we

01:16:07.490 - 01:16:29.360

drink coffee and we go to his office to talk. He say, "How much money do you need?" I say, “I need 30—$300,000—$360,000.” "Oh, no problem. When do you need it?

01:16:29.360 - 01:16:45.080

Just come and get it." It's that easy. So we pay off multinational bank, and then we have enough money to expand our building with all the Sunday schools and two parking lots.

01:16:47.120 - 01:17:02.520

And that's the first expansion. And after that, we decided to buy the house in the corner of the–of the block. There are two houses in the block, one house in the–in the corner and one

01:17:02.980 - 01:17:20.580

in church. We bought that house, we carried it down, flattened it. We built a long parking lot. I'll show you the PowerPoint. They don't—and reserve a piece of land for the family activity center.

01:17:21.870 - 01:17:37.860

And then, in 2011, we decided that we need to build a family activity center without going to the bank to borrow money.

01:17:38.660 - 01:17:53.710

We raised the money ourselves. And sure thing, it's over a million dollars. So somehow God just provided enough money for us to build the whole

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family activity center. And we had money left over. So the building projects really is a testimony for the church, you know, people over there, they really love the church.

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They're–they're willing to contribute, to offer, to work for it, to donate money. So the Christian religion is–is–is very important to me.

01:18:28.020 - 01:18:43.590

I share with–with you these stories about the church buildings. The other stories I can share with you later on. But today I think we already use up a

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lot of time. Unless you have any more questions, we can close the Zoom meeting if you'd like. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Okay. We will keep in touch with you over email.

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We will have—we will have someone transcribe this recording.