00:00:01.889 - 00:00:21.260

OK, let me move it to uh to camera to a different place. That way we can, I can look at you also at the same time. Um All of it. All right. So today is June 8th. My name is Chelsea Lee. I'm here with Doctor Franklin

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Wong and we will be conducting a full length interview. So let's get started. Um I will just start with your early life. Uh So where and when were you born? How would you describe the household um and neighborhood that you grew up in? Sure. Sure. Um

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Yeah. And now I can look at you at the same time. OK. That's good. Yeah, it's easier that way we have some eye contact. OK. Uh Yeah, actually I was born in Hong Kong. Uh We have four my parents have four Children and uh I was

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number two and I'm still number two. Um Then I went to college in Hong Kong at that time. It wasn't easy, but uh we managed, they only had two universities and I get into one of them. And in fact, later after I graduate, I go, I

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went to the the other university to do uh to do graduate school before I came to the United States. I did not graduate because once I heard u take me there and I just run over here. I run over here. So then I, I did my

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graduate school but the first part of my graduate school in uh University of Arizona. So, um, can you talk a little bit about your parents occupation and like some of the values that your parents emphasized during your upbringing? Yes. Um Actually my uh you hear me

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better that way with my mic is right here. All right. Um my mother is house maker. She just stay, she's a homemaker. She stay home, raise us up for Children. It's not easy job. And then my father actually work different things and he was a professional

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carpenter but he didn't after some time, then he do, he went to different jobs. And um then uh before I came over to the United States, he retired already. But the main way they emphasize at that time, um my mom was born in Hong Kong when

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she was she, well, she, when she actually she stayed there at that time, very few people were born in Hong Kong because most of them were immigrants. My father was an immigrant to Hong Kong from China. Uh But then they, they went there long ago. So

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in fact, we saw interesting way of see how different, even the same culture. But then the immigrants life live. And then at that time, they emphasize good work, obedience was not easy for, to run a family with four Children if they are not obedient. That's so

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we all try to, we actually listen and at that time when we will raise up, there's no other alternative. So just listen to parents do work. And occasionally some of the Children play a little more than study and then I'm the one who study more than

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play. Yeah, so I guess I'm gonna transition into your education in Hong Kong. Um So you you went to the University of Hong Kong for BS in chemistry and later like a master's in biochemistry. So um why did you choose chemistry as your major? And I

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went to the actually the Chinese University of Hong Kong at that time, um I went to, I actually chose to, to go uh I went, I have to go back a little bit. I chose to go to uh we call middle school, middle school in Chinese

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language. And then there was other choice to go in English language. But then at that time, I chose the Chinese. I I, well at that uh the majority, 97% was the of the population was Chinese at that time in Hong Kong. And I, I think hey,

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I grew up that way. I learned, I want to learn that way. But the Chinese speaking men, middle school only have one hour, one place to go for university. That's what they call the Chinese University of Hong Kong. The University of Hong Kong is speak English

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speaking. And then there was no way we could not. When we finish uh high school, we could not go to the University of Hong Kong. So there's only one choice to choose in the first place. And then um I chose chemistry because I actually uh I

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had, I like chemistry and play with chemistry quite a bit in high school. And then in the lab. And then so somehow just by uh maybe simple interest and I chose chemistry. But I didn't at that time. Actually, when, by the time I get to the

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end of high school, I did really well in math and physics. Those were my best two subjects. Chemistry is number three. But I chose chemistry because I actually want to see uh at that time, I, I learned, I try not to fall into the um uh

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too uh too intellectual and then metaphysical side of academics. So I want to see something I can see with my eyes. So with chemistry, I can change things in front of my eyes. I can see reaction and, and that's a little more relevant to real life.

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It was just, just personal choice at that time. I mean, I could easily have gone into math and then become uh well go into the different route. But I chose chemistry at that time. Um, yeah, I can't hear you. Oh, you can't. Oh, yeah. No, I

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can. Ok. I will speak a little louder. So, thinking back to your time in college, what were some defining moments you had? Um, well, first semester I already went into a defining moment that looking back, I guess you can relate it. But then at that time

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I, it was just a, it was a thing I wanted to do first semester. Uh, I was really interested in chemistry. That's why I went in and, uh, my grades everything support that. But I also want to make sure I do not ignore biology. Um, well,

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but not ignoring biology. Then I, I took a class of chemistry, physics, math and add biology to it. At that time. There was no, no such path. One either take, uh, either take three classes, they take three majors, major subjects, chemistry, biology or, or, or um,

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physics or one or the other. Nobody take four together. But I kind of, I want four. Ok. So I end up 23 credits and by doing 23 credits, my department had, would not approve. And when I talked to her at that time, it was the lady

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we were in good relationship even afterwards. But then I, I override her by, she said you have to go to talk to the dean. So I went to talk to the dean. So the dean approved me to do 23 credits. For that first semester. That was

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a defining moment. I also show actually, I mean, the good thing about you in college, I suppose is they allow us to have that kind of latitude to, to go even against. But actually I pay a price of doing that. Ok. Um how is your educational

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experience um different would you say in Hong Kong compared to the education that you would later receive in the US? Now in Hong Kong with that university, I went to just change to the complete US system. That's why we when the credits the traditional university in

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even in the University of Hong Kong at the time, they were following the British system. No exam until the last minute. Then last time when you finish the whole year of class, take one exam, you pass or fail. That was the British system at that time.

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But now uh in the Chinese University, we already changed to the credit system. So that's why I think I can relate to you about 23 credits. So um that to the mechanical part, the logistic part is very similar. We try to model uh they try to

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model the US way. And that's why when I applied to us school that is try it easy. No hitch, no need to translate anything. Credit is a credit. And the only thing united everything together is the GRE because they don't know how good we are. So

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the GRE and that's what uh in the second year in my, in my, at, in my early junior year. Then after I finished all the major core chemistry class, I took a GRE and the defining moment was I turned out, I find out I score 91

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percentile. I said, hey, not bad compared to us boys. So that gave me, that gave me the encouragement to apply to us uh graduate school. Yeah. So you then went to the University of Arizona for a Masters in Pharmacology in 1979. Is this when you moved

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to the US? And why did you decide to um end up going there? I actually went there in 1978. I I might be mix up a little bit but the correct thing is 1978. Um I graduated in Hong Kong in 19 9, 1977. But then I

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went to the University of Hong Kong, the one that the the British system to do a master in in biochemistry. But once I heard that uh University of told me, then I move over to the Pharmacology program. I chose pharmacology because I really want to see

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things happening in my eyes uh in a relevant way relevant to everyday life. So at least with a chemistry. Well, not that I don't like it. I really like all the chemistry thing I did. OK. I try many interesting things and well playing with blood is

00:10:11.919 - 00:10:26.520

a great thing too. Human blood to try to modify human blood. In, in the University of Hong Kong. All those are fun things. But I want to see more relevant to everyday thing. So I natural, I moved to pharmacology so I can see how it work

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in, at least in animal and hopefully in humans, that's what I had in mind. So uh well, moving to a different field, take some time, take some adjustment and I did, I did take it, took some time. So when I finished then, well, then I, I

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did some, my thesis is on inducing seizure in a rat and how to suppress it. So to me, I think it's fun for chemistry guy can do that and we can relate to all the chemist structure that I used to know things like that. So I,

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I took, I still take pride about making that move. I think it's still the best move I make is to transition. Yeah. Um Did any of your other family members come with, move with you? Uh No, no, no, nobody did. I, I'm, I actually, I was,

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I'm still the only one from my family that, that live in the United States and pursue anything here. Uh At that time, I was by myself and just to be by myself, learn everything on my own. And it takes some time, I just like every immigrant

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or every, every foreign student, then we had to make that adjustment and to graduate too. Um So what were some of like the challenges you faced? And was there like a big culture shock at first? Yeah, there's some, yeah, there's some during the four years in,

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in my college in Hong Kong, I already stuck at learning and then really make some preparation because, well, I think the direction I go uh going to the going overseas is the only way because over there, the old system used to be, you stay in that

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cycle, you stay in that discipline and then that's the rest of your life. So we're sitting back with some friends now and still see the same thing, not that they are bad. I mean, some of them do really well in different ways but then to make

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transition to go to different discipline to be humble in interdisciplinary, I think that was the only way to go. And so by doing that, it doesn't matter where you are in the States, you have, you still have chemistry guys have to make adjustment to become a

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pharmacology guy too. Yeah. Yeah. Um So yeah, you have a very impressive educational background. And um so when you came to America, you got, we mentioned you got the master's in pharmacology and then you also later got a Master's of Clinical Chemistry from the Cleveland State

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University. Can you speak a bit about your experiences and receiving your master's? Um Yes. Uh in the University of Arizona, I was kind of hesitated to go to the phd program. But then once the, the state University, they actually have a clinical, they call uh they,

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they actually have different names but they call toxicology program. And then they also call it Clinical Chemistry Program in phd. So I left the I left for Pharmacology Program to Clinical Chemistry. The ho is train me to be a person who can be a lab director

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to watch over all the clinical chemistry, all the, all the tests they are doing and also to develop new tests. Things like that, I thought it was great. Now knowing pharmacology, knowing that the the really value I can use my strength in chemistry, I moved to

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there um to do a phd program. But in the middle of it, then I kind of uh after I solidified, took a few more classes prepared for the phd, I found that there's a better program that opened up in Chicago. So at that time, I actually

00:14:06.989 - 00:14:24.489

left, but I decided to leave this program. And then when I turn around, I finished, I fulfill all the criteria for a master's degree. And for me, I talked to the program director. Actually, the thought wasn't too present because they thought they knew I was about

00:14:24.500 - 00:14:38.325

to leave and I was doing really well. Actually, they want, I told them I want to leave. So I told them, hey, maybe uh II I know I'm a second master and I already paid the application fee of $20. So if you let me graduate, I

00:14:38.335 - 00:14:54.090

get a master's degree. If you don't let me graduate, you get a tuition. So it wasn't that present. But then finally, after I left this place, and then they finally sent me the certificate, the diploma of master degree. So it is a fortunate or, or kind

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of uh not this unintended kind of thing to get the master degree, which I don't mind, just show that I have put in the effort. Then when I went to Chicago, I put in full effort in the, in the pathology program, I guess, what were some

00:15:13.469 - 00:15:34.950

like defining moments would you say from your master's program? Hm. I think that change the, the decision to move school is the one. and in fact, the sometimes I think we all make the difficult decisions. The decision was moving from as a graduate student, a doctoral

00:15:34.960 - 00:15:54.690

student in state, moving to the Chicago Medical School as a doctoral student also. Um then this time it's in the medical school itself and I would be taking all the medical school classes along with my fellow student, medical students. But still as graduate students, we have

00:15:54.700 - 00:16:08.440

to make A B and above where you probably know that. And it's not easy for even for them to make c sometimes it is difficult but I have to make B in every single class. That's a really just thought. Uh even for this uh the scholarship,

00:16:08.450 - 00:16:24.830

I actually took a probably 50% cut in the scholarship to go to Chicago. But I thought, hey, now I'm one step closer to medical school and I'm learning everything in, in medicine as the medical student. So I decided, ok, I'm going to make that change and

00:16:24.840 - 00:16:45.039

do another transition to further expand my horizon. And I think looking back, actually, it turns out to be one of the best move I made. Yeah. So yeah, so moving on to medical school. So you completed the MD phd from this Chicago medical school? What drove

00:16:45.049 - 00:17:05.310

you to complete the combined MD phd program? Uh You mean how or when like, oh, just like what, what drove you to? Ok. Yeah. What drove me is very simple. I was in a graduate school taking every class uh almost every, every class I talk is

00:17:05.319 - 00:17:22.739

in the medical school curriculum. But uh but I was a graduate student. So when I finished my prelim exam on halfway through my thesis, my dissertation, then I took the MCAT also and I think naturally I must be very good in MCAT, right? I was, I

00:17:22.750 - 00:17:36.170

was already in that and I, I get a very high percent of the the school I then with that, I talked to my chairman at that time, I said, hey, can I need a letter of recommendation to apply to the best six medical schools in the

00:17:36.180 - 00:17:51.819

United States? Some are Baltimore some in different place and some in Chicago and then the, the chair just turned to me and say, you know, Franklin, it just happened, you talk to me about this year. In that year, our school opened a new Combined MD phd

00:17:51.829 - 00:18:08.719

program and then he say, maybe you can try and if you try and, and I think, I think you might get in but then you need to go through the process. So that was June when I did that. So when I apply and then arrange for

00:18:08.729 - 00:18:25.510

interview and all that go to the process, I start, I applied in June and I started in classes in August. So that was the one that was the transition, easy transition into the combined degree program. And then from then on, I just took the classes that

00:18:25.520 - 00:18:40.459

didn't take uh and then uh get into the combined degree program. I was the first graduate in that program, right? I think things just open up, opportunity, open up. But I think one has to be prepared. If you are not prepared. Even they open up in

00:18:40.469 - 00:18:58.290

front of you, you can't get it. And I guess like, what was your medical school experience like, um was it challenging or uh it is? Yeah, I think for everyone, it is challenging. So I think everyone who go to med school or even in college that's

00:18:58.300 - 00:19:14.609

challenging. But uh over there, um well, there's some challenge but then the lucky thing is I already, uh, more than half of the medical school curriculum. I mean, the one that we need to take the rest of the clinical I couldn't. So the rest just, uh,

00:19:14.619 - 00:19:29.380

I, I take them back again but then, uh, I have to do that while I'm preparing my dissertation, doing research and it wasn't easy, but then it's doable. So it always say it's doable. So I, I told the same time and finally finish and move into

00:19:29.390 - 00:19:46.180

the clinical, finish my dissertation. In fact, I finished with a phd first before I do the the clinical rotations. And so I was in a combined degree program, but I was able to graduate one before I graduated with the MD. So it's a combined degree but

00:19:46.189 - 00:20:01.979

not exactly combined. But then uh so I finished the clinical years. Clinical years are more, takes more challenge because um clinical years than we have to, I mean, the culture, the mind of thinking is different. The research guys and then no research, guys, minds are a

00:20:01.989 - 00:20:18.719

little different that at least 30 years ago. And also that's the time the cultural part come in to try to fit in because that's real life to deal with people. Total interactive no longer a student and have to be uh have to deal with the coworker

00:20:18.729 - 00:20:40.119

all that. And so it took some time to to go through that uh that it's not exactly a shock again. It's another transition. Yeah. So you did your phd thesis on fluorescence polarization immuno essay. Can you elaborate more about this? Ok. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Um I

00:20:40.130 - 00:21:00.260

think immuno essays. These people these days people understand that well, right. Immuno essay. Uh they use the antibody, use the uh use a manufacture antibody to tear out the compounds, different compounds in the, in the blood. Uh That's what I was trained to do to, so

00:21:00.270 - 00:21:19.680

what we did, what I did was to use that just to see to test thyroxin, thyroxin is a worse uh compound that's worse in existing small, very small amount nanograms per uh deciliter in that range. So uh to make a very sensitive test in the past,

00:21:19.689 - 00:21:35.609

people use, I know they put a radio isotope there and then yeah, and use the antibody to test it. But then it wasn't that good because people try to stay away from radiation. And then for me, I followed it too. Not that well. I um I

00:21:35.619 - 00:21:51.760

like radiation but then if we can avoid it and then get people accept more and commercially, if it can be done with the isotope is idea that in that along that line, then we develop, just use the uh fluorescence to do it. But the fluorescence have

00:21:51.770 - 00:22:05.949

one interesting thing. I I just make it very simple in that the free molecule when they free rotate the brown movement and all that, right? So with that kind of fluorescence, then they uh when you shoot a light into it at a degree, they kind of

00:22:05.959 - 00:22:24.280

turn around a little bit, but then they turn, don't turn around too much. But the use of power polarized like shoot into that Brownian motion molecule flues in, then they will turn into another degree. It's a characteristic of the, of the, of that particular molecule uh

00:22:24.290 - 00:22:40.270

and also characteristic of resolution too. But on the other hand, when you get it bound to antibodies, they cannot rotate that freely anymore. They rotate much less so and low size bound. So just by doing that, the advantage is this now we, we do not need

00:22:40.280 - 00:22:55.339

radio isotope, at least in my setting in that particular test. In that setting, we do not need isotope. And we could use it to, we can measure the polarization of the fluorescence slide. And now we know how much is, how much is free. And that way

00:22:55.349 - 00:23:14.130

we will know how much is inside that tube that's to do a non invasive non radial isotope, a non radioactive noninvasive way of measuring things in uh in human stuff. Uh So to meet the attraction is not really, hey, no hands, we don't even need to

00:23:14.140 - 00:23:29.680

get our thumb and anything inside and nondestructive. Uh that sounds very good at that time when I did it. And I, that's the first two parts of my thesis is to do that and how to quantify it. And the third part is apply to real serum,

00:23:29.900 - 00:23:45.819

human serum. Again, uh we, we work with human human blood and try to measure. But that's the time when I make that transition from the test tube to the test tube with human serum, back, back difference, back back transition, I went through some difficulty that could

00:23:45.829 - 00:24:04.800

not be overcome and try many, many, many different ways. And when we try different ways to overcome that transition from, from the pure solution into the test in the test tube of human blood. The real serious, I mean, real life situation then uh so many things

00:24:04.810 - 00:24:22.739

come up. Uh And we actually found some very interesting accidental finding that my, my advisor went to apply for Patton about it too. But even those, those exciting things could not overcome it. So I will not present to the committee. I could not overcome it in

00:24:22.750 - 00:24:39.439

him, in, in the blood. And then they still decide to let me pass because at least I at the first two part of success, the third part, that's real life, success, uh real life situation. And looking back even today, those problems cannot be overcome. So I'm

00:24:39.449 - 00:24:54.719

so glad I gave up 30 some years ago and decide, oh, I'm not going to do that anymore. And uh and the weather that another thing that come out with it is that it's very difficult to trans to make the, the translation from test tube to

00:24:54.729 - 00:25:11.650

human. Uh That's a, that's a big revelation that, that that thing takes a lot of wisdom and we need to know much more things before we can conclude, make simple conclusion from the test tube alone. Yeah. Um I guess were there any mentors that helped guide

00:25:11.660 - 00:25:31.979

your experience? I think you mentioned. Uh Yeah, I have a, I have several. Yeah. One is the uh the uh uh professor who helped me, help me all along with my research. The other one actually is the chairman, the chairman who actually was very helpful in

00:25:31.989 - 00:25:50.050

many ways. And also he, I think he's one of the determining factor uh that to decide on letting me finish my phd. That's because when I present all those difficulty, I appreciate that. And I'm so glad that he appreciate that time within the home. Otherwise today,

00:25:50.060 - 00:26:07.489

I still would not be able to finish it. Uh And I think with their guidance and he's also the guy that helped me with multiple other factors along medical school too. That was the chairman that uh that sent me to the combined degree program. And, and

00:26:07.500 - 00:26:22.599

the turn out says that's uh and it turned out he helped me in more than one way. The other thing that he helped me was during the course of my interaction with him. He was, he was relatively young, early fifties. He got a major heart attack

00:26:23.430 - 00:26:38.900

and get into triple bypass. So I took, I bought some of my co uh Well, we have uh we have several people in the combined degree program. I took several of them to visit him and we have a lot of things and with the advices, he

00:26:38.910 - 00:26:54.890

see it and then seeing himself to seeing himself actually bounce back and become even much more healthy, healthy lifestyle, eat healthy. And he still, I think last time I saw him maybe about a year ago and he's more than more than 80 year old and he

00:26:54.900 - 00:27:14.670

was chairman for a long time too. So seeing him also learn something about that and then that uh I, I think the learning is multiple ways too. Um I guess now um we can transition into your early career. Um You became a resident physician in internal

00:27:14.680 - 00:27:34.969

medicine um at UC Irvine and then switched to uh neurology at UCL A. Uh what was this experience like to be a resident physician um in these like two different fields and which one did? And uh actually, uh it goes this way uh for neurology residents,

00:27:35.010 - 00:27:51.719

we have to match during medical school. That's how they will be match more than one year ahead. So during my, in my medical school, at the end, probably the fourth year when we have to choose a residency to choose, I actively choose neurology, I did not

00:27:51.729 - 00:28:12.199

consider anything else. One of the reason is related to my early work, I was working on neuro receptors and neural liens in actually back in Hong Kong. Um But my other work is on epilepsy in Arizona. All those are neuroscience and I really like neuroscience science

00:28:12.209 - 00:28:30.099

very much and I think I can relate to that I can build on it. So under that kind of uh version, now I just chose neurology and then I match the UCL A and uh they called the uh VA program. So after we match that one,

00:28:30.329 - 00:28:48.930

we have, we still have to find our internship and that's how we got the internship. It's a one year program. It, it's known as the transition. So then I chose the UC Irvine and Long Beach VA program. I see, I see. Um I guess between internal

00:28:48.939 - 00:29:07.790

medicine and neurology, uh can you talk about just like which one did you enjoy better? I guess? Um Well, I, I did that they call intern but actually Western physician, it's the same thing for that one year in uh in UC Irvine and Long Beach Way.

00:29:08.260 - 00:29:25.349

Um I learn in medicine, a cardiac heart. I spent two months in cancer, spent two months in emergency room. I spent two months in and the rest just do some uh because of the water or the floor, the inpatient, some, we do different things and I

00:29:25.359 - 00:29:40.699

actually enjoy it because that's what I learned in medical school. And now I do everything. But what I didn't like is the one I didn't like most things in cancer actually, at that time. Because at that time, cancer care was very limited 35 years ago or

00:29:40.709 - 00:29:56.729

even more than that. Um And then I see patients die on me all the time, all the time. And one example, I, one day I went every morning we have morning conference to go back, report about the patients, talk about new plans, all that. During one

00:29:56.739 - 00:30:09.780

of the conference, I get to call to call out, we call a cold, we get called out to a cold. That means some patient is about to die to do. I get caught out twice. And then when I come back to the conference, I lost two

00:30:09.790 - 00:30:23.589

patients already. I just say, oh, I hate it. I hate that experience. I don't like to see people dying and it's not me. I'm not going to cancer and you don't know the implication by saying that I'll tell you later by saying that I don't like

00:30:23.599 - 00:30:42.560

the word cancer. And today every patient I have is cancer. OK? So um but then going to the world is what I was looking into. I I was looking into fall into it, see the mind how the mind works, the brain and people's mind, brain and

00:30:42.569 - 00:30:58.619

people's motion, brain and everything. And to me, I like the brain. So I I was really fortunate to be able to go there and then get in touch with so many things uh including instrument uh in in neurology program, in with instrument we can measure people's

00:30:58.630 - 00:31:15.000

brain wave. We even talk about people's magnetic wave and then we turn around, look at them at that time with MRI and also with PA. Pa was a new tool. That was a new tool. Uh I think first started in 19 eighties. And then that's the

00:31:15.010 - 00:31:35.140

one we can look into metabolism of a person or a living thing, uh or animal. Uh we can look at the metabolism inside the body anywhere. And without it again, no hands, non invasive in investigation. And to me, those are things that attract me so much.

00:31:35.439 - 00:31:48.520

And I was really fortunate to be able in the place where we actually have three PT scanners. Pet scanners are very rare at that time. They are only about 10 or 15 in the country. We have three in one square mile because in the va they

00:31:48.530 - 00:32:03.839

have one in the main campus, we have two and then they also have the cycle trying to produce new different kind of exotic compounds to test the body, the brain, the cancer everywhere. So to me, it's like going into really a kid in a candy store.

00:32:05.150 - 00:32:23.750

Yeah. Um Can you talk a little bit about maybe like daily life of your residency and how that was like uh daily life? Uh Well, not the um OK, so in the residence in the new residence, I actually moved different place. I, I live in Santa

00:32:23.760 - 00:32:40.609

Monica a little bit and then learn about they have the rent control issue. Uh I'm not sure we are familiar with it in Texas. Rent control is in one particular, in one of the nicest place like Santa Monica, the regions have rent control, the landlord cannot

00:32:40.619 - 00:32:58.640

raise rent too much and have to be limited. So turns out the housing was quite inexpensive, unexpectedly going there. So I stayed there for a while and then um I stay in some other uh closer place too. So the daily life was just work hard and

00:32:58.650 - 00:33:15.530

um and have to take care of patients. I mean, but I had a commission uh to watch the floor, the floor, meaning the ward for uh two months in a row twice. And I was given the incentive, say if nobody died during my uh my two

00:33:15.540 - 00:33:30.900

months, then they will send me to a national meeting. So I actually managed to do that. I managed to do that except one patient actually died two weeks later at home, the 94 year old we did everything we can for him. And but then so they

00:33:30.910 - 00:33:43.209

don't count that death against me. It, they could have the program could have come against me and then not let me get that trip. So they get, let me get that trip. And then so I managed to enjoy so it's busy, but it's rewarding too. And

00:33:43.219 - 00:33:58.839

then we were able to talk to the teachers and talk to new people and I also went across the whole the main street to the main campus, talk to different people and get to know the, the, the pet program pet is the positive on a mission

00:33:58.849 - 00:34:18.959

tomography thing that can do so many what we call metabolic imaging. Um And from that I get in touch and that's how I spring on to nuclear medicine. So you became a post doctoral fellow at Johns Hopkins and are now a professor of Nuclear Medicine and

00:34:18.969 - 00:34:39.779

Neuro Oncology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center. Can you take me through the progression of your career? OK. Sure. Sure. Yeah, that's another, that's another or most difficult choice because when I finished neurology, I could have just gone out uh and uh and practice neurology and

00:34:39.839 - 00:34:56.749

uh and do that. But what attracted me is the pet scan. Uh I have to happen to have some opportunity. I actually did a pet scan uh rotation in University of Chicago during my medical school time. And because I was attracted to the instrument anyway. So

00:34:57.148 - 00:35:13.699

having done that and knowing to me, I know that I know that program director, they know me at least student that I was to learn. So in UCL A when uh and the long and the we we have the P scan so often when I was

00:35:13.709 - 00:35:28.199

very friendly with those people in new medicine, then they call me, hey, Franklin, we have a spot open today. Uh a pet scan spot that. Uh Do you have anyone you, you want to send over? This is free invitation today. You do a scan like that.

00:35:28.209 - 00:35:40.280

It cost so much money to do uh an effort at that time in a research setting, it's easy. And then I look around and then, oh, this one might be good and talk to the patient and if they're willing to, then we just send them over

00:35:40.399 - 00:35:57.260

by doing that. I had more experience in pet and by doing more pet. Uh At that time, I actually had a publication. Um then when I went back to UCL, a talk to the uh nuclear medicine folks. Uh Well, it's a little before about a year

00:35:57.270 - 00:36:11.330

before. Then I talked to the nuclear medicine folks in UCL A about, hey, how about I come over to your program and then to the, they said, well, too bad. We only have one position a year and this one is taken already for the next year

00:36:11.340 - 00:36:24.850

for the next 18 months. But you can stay with the pet fellowship for me. I didn't like that. I didn't want to do pet alone. I want to make sure I do everything in nuclear. So that's the time I will look to. Then I look to

00:36:24.860 - 00:36:40.840

Johns Hopkins and talk to them and then I talked to the director. They, they happened, he happened to know my program director in New University in UCL A and he also know the guy I did with uh in University of Chicago. So that make it quite

00:36:40.850 - 00:36:58.570

simple and natural question. And then, so then the minute after I finish uh in, in the UCL A program, then I just fly over to uh to Baltimore to do the, they call post stop. But actually they call fellowship too. They call off fellowship a post

00:36:58.580 - 00:37:17.020

stop. So from that, then I, I spent two years to do all everything, nuclear medicine, some pet um and then be fully eligible. And then, and I managed to do to do my board exams for neurology and for nuclear medicine during those two years and finish

00:37:17.030 - 00:37:42.090

it before I look for a real job. So what is um a post doctoral fellowship like position like? Yeah. Uh now in different place, it might mean different things. I mean, most university are free place and uh they, well the hospital will give uh uh will,

00:37:42.100 - 00:37:59.500

it's a, it's a hospital position to do the clinical work and it's the academic position to do everything you assigned to or your advisor uh warn you or allow you to do. And in Hopkins, the good thing is this, I was able to get everything uh

00:37:59.510 - 00:38:15.600

several things I want to do. Uh uh Now I was able to take their full class that I took one month for class to learn nuclear medicine, all the physics, chemistry, software and clinical experience, everything before I see patient. And then then afterwards then we were

00:38:15.610 - 00:38:35.010

free. And in fact, in Hopkins, at that time, the clinic is very uh the clinic is busy but it's very desirable. So we have 15 people, one nuclear medicine person trying to do nuclear medicine rotation in the clinic. So being in the clinic is a privilege

00:38:35.169 - 00:38:49.199

instead of a demand. Unlike some other situation, then they are being in the clinic is a chore. It's not we wanted to. But then you don't even get the chance to be there because somebody else and many people are, are not on salary. I was fortunate

00:38:49.209 - 00:39:04.739

to be to take the only position that is funded. But well, even then the salary is lower than the UCL A one. But then I didn't go there for salary. I go there for, I went there for uh uh experience. So when I and I was

00:39:04.750 - 00:39:26.669

also able to do some project I wanted because during my, during my neuro receptor experience long, long ago in, in college. And then also later in the in the binding study in uh in my phd program, I actually had some idea about doing um to do

00:39:26.679 - 00:39:42.350

receptor binding in a way, not in the test tube in a way inside the body. So uh in Hopkins, I talked to the, I just talked to a couple of research people. Then they point to me, oh, talk to uh the other person in uh I

00:39:42.360 - 00:40:00.709

think his name is Doctor Michael. Michael. Michael, actually, Michael was a student of Snyder is the one who invent who discover receptor. So they were doing a lot of those receptor binding. But in order to do that, then we also need to have radiation source and

00:40:00.719 - 00:40:17.040

then we just say we your finger and then we will find, they say, OK, you can get that radiation source from there to do what I call radiation receptor binding. Other people use x-ray use for us uh use uh ultraviolet that actually other people use ultraviolet

00:40:17.050 - 00:40:32.600

light to do recept affinity binding. I use radiation to do it. The goal is if I can use radiation to do affinity binding in the body. Now I can see things inside the body without going in and I will be doing receptor binding. Uh It's the

00:40:32.610 - 00:40:52.219

same thing as my, actually my mentor. His name is uh Henry Wagner in Johns Hopkins. He was called the Nuclear father of nuclear medicine in the United States. So by he actually, in, before I went there, he already published a paper with his brain showing his

00:40:52.229 - 00:41:11.570

receptors when he's alive. OK. So that those are the things that attracted me. And now I can even do with what I wanted to do it. Uh the radiation induce affinity binding. I can use radiation to look at those binding inside the organism. So by doing

00:41:11.580 - 00:41:25.840

that, then they, they direct me. This is my own project, all of my own. But they several other researchers, some of my mentors that his name is Dean Wong. He's a, he is the one, he's the first author of that paper to of my other mentor

00:41:25.909 - 00:41:40.270

Brain in the Journal of Science. So when, when I was in, I was, I have so many very great uh resources and they can, they don't, they cannot do it. They direct me to do my project. That's, those are the things that drive me every week

00:41:40.280 - 00:41:54.750

go a couple of times. Actually, they had the N ID A next door National Institute of drug abuse. They were studying cocaine binding and all that. And I was the man I was able to go over there do the car binding or some of the cocaine

00:41:54.760 - 00:42:08.719

receptor, some of different receptor using radiation. And to me, that's one of the greatest things because if I in other place, I might not be able to do that. And in the meantime, I was seeing patients taking night course. And uh to me, I think that's

00:42:08.729 - 00:42:28.510

a great place to be two years is really well well spent. And um and because I finished my board exam and I passed my boss in um in when I was there too. So I, I think looking back, I would not say anything for that. I

00:42:29.350 - 00:42:52.770

can hear you well. Yeah. OK. So you also did AJ D and MB A program um which is very surprising. Um Did you decide to Um So like why did you decide to pursue law and business after um attaining your MD and phd? No. Um then

00:42:52.780 - 00:43:11.260

I came to MD Anderson in 1992. Um when I came here, the, the good, well, the good thing is I was very busy. Um I went to three clinics. Now I went to nuclear medicine clinic to do the regular and I was on full low. I

00:43:11.270 - 00:43:29.560

wasn't taking any uh shortcut or anything. But on top of it, occasionally, I managed to arrange to, I also work in the neurology clinic to keep up my uh keep up my skills and I have to get a joint appointment in neurology also in neural oncology

00:43:29.570 - 00:43:47.239

also. So, um and then on top of it, uh the thing that attracted me to MD Anderson is because they also have a pet clinic so we can do those day after day and their own clinic only do pet scan online for cancer. So I was

00:43:47.250 - 00:44:05.729

really, I mean, this is another great place kid in a candy store, everything I want to do. And they also have some professors and some researchers that is doing affinity labeling. So I continue my project with the radiation affinity labeling here while, while I was in

00:44:05.739 - 00:44:22.090

uh in Anderson. So it was a great, great time because then I um I, I go home a little late, might be nine or 10, something like that. But then um but the day is well spent and I met very, very interesting guys to people here.

00:44:22.100 - 00:44:38.040

They do research, one lady chemist, show me how to do radio out the labeling of different molecules. And then a physicist show me how to how because he make the scanner himself, he was the one who build it. So he showed me all the interesting tricks

00:44:38.050 - 00:44:58.590

he there. Um But then about a year later after about a year after I get here, the uh that's the time what we call managed care, managed care is the thing as HMO, different kind of contract or that um 30 some years ago, the managed care

00:44:58.600 - 00:45:18.439

penetration in Houston market was 7%. But when I get there, after I get there in about two years, the, the, the wave from both coasts move in and then at that time, the penetration get to about 17%. And that's what alarmed the institution. And they said,

00:45:18.449 - 00:45:35.090

wow, we have to watch and wait for the show because when, because when many care come, the reimbursement come down and the financial impact is they need to close one program. And when they look at the one program, the pet program is attached to what they

00:45:35.100 - 00:45:51.899

call the proton therapy program. Proton therapy is great thing. They create new things. They use a proton, they even use neutron beam to, to shoot into patient, to do treatment. And those, those they call a psycho program. I'm sorry, it's not a proton, it's a psycho.

00:45:52.489 - 00:46:11.979

So, but then it many, many million dollars, they have a 10 scientists but they uh to help, they see six patients or day. So by, by the institutions look check, they said we cannot afford to have this to keep paying for, to keep the cycle program.

00:46:11.989 - 00:46:31.310

And then there's a psycho slash pet and then we were in advice and so they decide to close the program even though there are many, many different rescue plans and different position. Um Then two years after I uh I came 1994 I I think that at

00:46:31.320 - 00:46:48.340

the end of 94 the program is closed. So I only had to do uh nuclear medicine clinic and occasionally do some pet clinic. Yeah and occasionally do some new neural oncology, pain clinic. And the rest of the time, I'm back to myself, I have plenty of

00:46:48.350 - 00:47:06.620

time. So for seeing that. So that's the time I think maybe this is a good time to uh to kind of uh kind of bring back my own interest. My interest in actually is not long ago, even in Hong Kong when I was in the University

00:47:06.629 - 00:47:21.350

of Hong Kong, I already send in an application to the University of London. At that time, they have this external degree program in London. You is well known they have been going on for many, many years. So I was planning on while I do graduate school

00:47:21.360 - 00:47:40.010

in Hong Kong University. I would also do the external degree in law because I was, I was interested in really learn really how, how all those rules, how the law works, the law and laws work. Um That actually we laid back a little bit during my

00:47:40.020 - 00:47:57.399

first year too in college in the second semester when I was not taking 23 credits. I, I took, it's not necessary, not required. But then I took a class, I took a class in they call government and public administration. But for me, I actually want diversity.

00:47:57.550 - 00:48:16.489

I really want very broad diversity. I went breath of the, of the study. So from that, I learned that and then turn out it's not that bad. I learned quite a bit about society. Law rules and how to, how to run a place. So with that,

00:48:16.879 - 00:48:30.330

then um I thought knowing law would be a good thing and that was also in a hiatus in Hong Kong. Then I could have. So after I get a miss, I get a mission, I didn't know because then I came to the United, I get accepted

00:48:30.340 - 00:48:45.290

to United States. I say, OK, uh llB from London, you have no use in, in United States anyway. So plus I have to get back to a new place. So then I gave up, but when I have a have three time, then I just, hey, maybe

00:48:45.300 - 00:49:00.340

this is the time to uh to do it. So then I um apply. And because one of the other reason is when we have a hiatus in our, in our patient care, we indeed have a job in patient law. We were, we were going home at

00:49:00.350 - 00:49:15.489

that time. Uh We will go home at 3 30. We finished all our work at 3 30. And then I figure out, hey, perfect, because the part time law school started at 5 30 at night in University of Houston. So I apply and then I get

00:49:15.500 - 00:49:32.479

in. So then I uh spent a year and during that year, actually during those years in law school, I was in full clinic and I also keep publishing, keep presenting, making national presentation. So I did not select off, I have to because then if I show

00:49:32.489 - 00:49:52.459

slack off the network, then it won't be good, then then people will uh you, you, you will hear from the Super. Um So I managed to get full, full research pass the law school at night. So how did, how did you manage to complete your JD

00:49:52.469 - 00:50:08.280

and MB A while serving as assistant professor at the Department of Nuclear Medicine? No, not in the clinic. I did not select if I have to. Sometimes if there's some situation I have to cut cost and I cut the school class. I mean school is my

00:50:08.300 - 00:50:26.310

uh second priority work itself. Patient care is number one always. But that's the time you, you go back about like 30 20 some years, cell phone just came on. They have a very expensive free phone at that time cost $1500. Only, there were only three in,

00:50:26.320 - 00:50:40.870

uh, in my institution. The president have one, I have one and the other one have one. Nobody have that. But I want the most effective communication. So when I was going to class about two miles away, I know what's going on in clinic At time, they

00:50:40.879 - 00:50:56.659

call me. Then I was able to get when they need me, I was able to give some uh directions and, and with the supervision over the phone, they didn't even know I wasn't around. So that's the superiority of technology with time. Then this become more common.

00:50:56.669 - 00:51:14.810

But at that time, very few people wanted to invest. I invest in that. Plus during law school, um the first year is busy but law school will be. Our classes are Monday to Thursday. Well, with one Monday to Thursday classes uh at night 5 30 to

00:51:14.820 - 00:51:33.989

9 30. Uh it's not easy and those are the time that my dinner become Kit Kat Bar, a diet Coke and kick. But that's, those are my dinner for quite a while. Um But it's done because it's done. And also I chose classes in two in

00:51:34.000 - 00:51:56.149

health care. Now there's a core law cause that nobody can change after the call that elect in I chose in um health care and also in uh intellectual property. So with that, um I also took summers some our summers in uh well, we actually have some

00:51:56.159 - 00:52:15.489

vacation. So I save all my vacation to the summer and took full time law school class in the summer. So that way I packed two summers and also some intersectional inter sessional meaning during Christmas between Christmas and New Year, that's about one or two weeks before

00:52:15.500 - 00:52:34.100

people return to spring quarter. So I did many of those works in order to graduate past one year into law school. Now, 94 I start 94 in June, I started law school in 95. The University of Houston started a, they call professional MB A program. I

00:52:34.110 - 00:52:52.070

look into that a little bit. Seems like it was just made for me because, because number one, they only meet in weekends and some Fridays and in law school, we don't have Friday, Friday, we don't have classes. So, and now I say, ok, I'm going to

00:52:52.080 - 00:53:07.560

use that to accelerate my uh law school. And in work, actually, I get about, I think about 18 credits, total credits, 90 hours and then 90 credits. But then I get 18 from the business school. So when I was in the business school, I was joined,

00:53:07.570 - 00:53:28.050

I was getting uh two double credit to the business school and to the law school. Um, so I was able to accelerate and I, I finished the JD in 2.5 year uh because one thing is work is busy and slowly catching up to us. But slowly

00:53:28.060 - 00:53:43.300

we are getting busier and with more and there's some other responsibility that's catching up. So I know I, I have to minimize that time. And so I did minimize that time. But in the business school, I actually like to learn the business too because I want,

00:53:43.310 - 00:53:56.270

I want diversity. I want breath. So because we had a great group, we were in a cohort basis in the, in the, it's just like executive MB A program in the cohort. We were doing well. And then we, we had a shoe store, we run a

00:53:56.280 - 00:54:11.129

shoe store, China, I will sell other shoe people. So I think might as well stay for the rest of the time. So at this stay uh for the extra year. So in the business school, which is relatively easy now compared with before. Uh So I, I

00:54:11.139 - 00:54:28.959

finished the business school also and I think our, our store did really well too. We beat other teams too. Yeah. Um Did you also need to uh lead research during this time? I did? Yes, I actually I did the research too. I did the research and

00:54:28.969 - 00:54:45.750

some of my research was done during that time and that some of my and then I did quite a bit of uh planning thinking and a grant application too. So I finished my, my uh the the preparation, get the work done for grant. It, take it,

00:54:45.760 - 00:55:04.709

take some time with those work. Uh I start writing NIH grants for us when we won grants. The most prestigious is NIH grant. Uh So I, I wrote that and then at, I think, first time at was in uh 20 29 20 09. And then finally

00:55:04.719 - 00:55:26.239

in 20. Uh no, I'm sorry, it's 1999. And then I get my first grant funded in 201. Uh then I got a second one in 2003. And then I got another, they called the Army Breast Breast Cancer Grant in uh also 203. So after those, those

00:55:26.250 - 00:55:41.919

are at the DMB, I went back and do clinical research and do, do research, writing and then I got three grants in a couple of years. So, I mean, they occupy my time that that's a good thing because somehow this progression seem to be so natural.

00:55:43.919 - 00:56:00.899

Um Yeah. Did you? So what was your family like life like during this time? Did you have Children or? Yeah. Yeah. I, um I had my, my, my wife had the second child during uh when I first the first month we get to Houston. I have

00:56:00.909 - 00:56:17.919

three Children totally. Now, um when I went to law school at that time, what I figured out is my, the Children is only two and 22 and three year old. I think that they can be away for a few years and come back, they might not

00:56:17.929 - 00:56:35.820

even notice. So, essentially it's like that when I was home I came home at 10 or 11 and then see them and just say, uh, say good night and then we can sometimes with them, but the others are tough. Uh, so that's a little, uh, not

00:56:35.830 - 00:56:52.989

easy. But, uh, it's, it, we managed because then, uh, I was done by, I finished law school. It is much easier in 06. So I mean, in 96 so 94 to 96 is the busiest time. And then, but then my Children were really young because my

00:56:53.000 - 00:57:07.479

mom was here. My mom actually came from Hong Kong all the way to, she actually came to visit us and my wife invite her to stay and to stay for a long time. Took care of all our three Children. And then when I finished, uh when

00:57:07.489 - 00:57:34.360

I finished the, the, the uh JDMB A that's 20 that's 1998. So at that time, I look back, my, my daughter is already seven year old. My son is six year old and then we kids growing up out of the school and then my friends were

00:57:34.370 - 00:57:52.129

going into the empty nest kind of situation. So I talked to my wife said in 2008, I talk to my wife, you know, let's have another one. So you won't go into empty nest too early. And at least she accept that challenge. So, in, uh, in,

00:57:52.139 - 00:58:13.709

uh, let's see, in 1999 I mix up the time probably by 10 years. 1998 I finished, uh MB A in 1999 we had the third child. Um, that child actually, uh, he finished his uh college from Rice University this year. You might know, you might even

00:58:13.719 - 00:58:38.949

know him. Kelvin Wong. You might, might not know him. He just graduated. Yeah, he's in, he's joining the mcgovern Medical School uh entering cost in, in a month. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um I guess how, how would, how difficult was law school? And is it comparable

00:58:38.959 - 00:58:55.030

to medical school, would you say? Uh I would say OK, the OK law School actually is quite tough, different kind of thinking really different kind of thinking sometimes when we we are in science or in medical school, we have very strict one kind of criteria, this

00:58:55.040 - 00:59:12.610

kind of criteria. But in law school it's multiple, multiple, multiple soft criteria and also there's different rule making. There are some, some uh there are many things to learn even though we are learning by case, I mean, case law of control. And in the in Texas,

00:59:12.620 - 00:59:29.429

there are 22 major jurisdiction, the federal one and um and the state one um we need to know those uh structure parts. I also take that opportunity to relearn the constitution because we have to take constitution now. But I never learned constitution before and neither my

00:59:29.439 - 00:59:42.320

Children, they grew up here, they have to learn it. Right. So I took it even though it's hard. But I, the fact two part, I, I took it as, hey, this is my chance to do my civics. Uh, but I have to do it much more

00:59:42.330 - 00:59:58.159

tight and more at once. And in fact I did. So, I, it is hard. I think the law part of the first, the core is very hard, but it's essential. It's really important. And in fact, I can tell you probably if people do that, this is

00:59:58.169 - 01:00:15.899

the minimum. There are many things we actually don't do in the major us law school curriculum. They don't do but uh they shave off like international laws like some other very crucial stuff. Um One have to learn those and, and I had to learn and, and

01:00:15.909 - 01:00:33.030

I, I did, at least I get to, I get to having to answer to do many things. But I had the advantage I was able to do scanning, I was able to read things by doing scanning and very few people do scanning. I scan some paragraph

01:00:33.040 - 01:00:48.820

in and search for words today is natural. I think everybody does it. But that time 1990 five or so, nobody is doing that. But I was, I was able to have the ability to use the computer to choose what so I can read much faster. I

01:00:48.830 - 01:01:06.169

want to choose the room I go in but these days, I mean, it is a given. Um, but how is done? And then I, I, and I, I, the thing I chose health law and patent and, uh, and intellectual law, those are things I like anyway.

01:01:06.669 - 01:01:23.050

And later I actually in all three then I, I went back and then study a little more on patent law. And then I, I get, I become a patent lawyer with the United States patent office. Yeah, they, they need uh not all lawyers can practice law

01:01:23.060 - 01:01:41.419

in front of the patent office. They need to have a bike, they need to have an exam to qualify and only some people can and I, I managed to get in uh register with them. Yeah, you also have a patent for local regional internal radio Nucleation

01:01:41.429 - 01:01:59.419

of abnormal tissues. Would you? Yeah. Would you please elaborate more on this? Sure. Yeah, that one actually I have, I have a book I can show you. Ok, this is the book just came out 2021. Wow. Ok. This one has some of those there. But then

01:01:59.429 - 01:02:18.689

let me tell you actually, yeah, you can. It's related to my uh my uh grants. My first grant is to uh the, the reason actually the reason I did my first grant is this um I, I actually I turned into so I know the brain really?

01:02:18.699 - 01:02:34.689

Well, that's how people come to that. My colleague asked me to ask me to do uh imaging of the spinal fluid. I do a lot of those in Hopkins, I only did the three or four totally in two years. But in uh in Anderson now, I

01:02:34.699 - 01:02:50.649

think I've done at least 1200 now. So to do human spinal fluid imaging is an interesting thing to me, especially to our neurology, very meaningful. And I managed to see that. And when the reason they do that is because they uh my colleagues have patients, they

01:02:50.659 - 01:03:06.639

get cancer spreading to the meninges to the covering of the spinal fluid. It's very difficult to treat, to treat it. Either one use radiation to suit through the brain, through the skull and get to the meninges or the covering of the brain or spinal cord or

01:03:06.649 - 01:03:25.280

inject some chemicals because some drug pharmaceuticals inside to kind of treat it along the way along the spinal fluid path. But for me, I had the fortunate situation of keep seeing all different kinds of spinal fluid flow pattern. And I was able to ask some scientists

01:03:25.290 - 01:03:44.810

to help me to calculate how much radiation would be there if I did, if I did put radiation inside. So this somebody already done it, but they did it with a very expensive, difficult to get kind of uh monoclonal antibody. My contention was I probably don't

01:03:44.820 - 01:03:58.100

need those antibodies. I just put the things straight into it and where do I get those? And for neurologist, will be tough. What, what else can you put in the spinal fluid to, in order to treat the those, those cancer? But for me, it's easy because

01:03:58.110 - 01:04:13.379

I'm a nuclear physician. We use that all the time. One of the things we have been using is we have been using for 80 years now is sodium, sodium is the one that is used to treat thyroid grave disease. The thyroid situation to use to treat

01:04:13.389 - 01:04:28.040

the thyroid cancer when it spread to other side part or when they stay. And in fact, in the clinic, I use it left and right to treat. So I think, hey, what cannot be easier if I just put that inside the spinal fluid and let it

01:04:28.050 - 01:04:39.610

go through. Of course, how much the treat is to what is the question? And that's where the scientists help me too. And that's what we do because I can do picture to image to know how much I'm giving to different patient to make sure it's not

01:04:39.620 - 01:04:55.409

hurting people and make sure it's helping. That's the basis of my, I already told you that's the basis of my first NIH grant. OK. So we build a here, let it fall around and uh in the isotope inside the vegetable, let it flow inside the spinal

01:04:55.419 - 01:05:12.879

fluid to burn out those cancer. The reason to do that for those people is they have a very bad time prognosis. People with that if they have cancer spread to the covering of the skin. The median survival is uh I think it is 44 days. That

01:05:12.889 - 01:05:29.290

number have not changed much. So when in, in UC A, when I was a resident physician, when we have one like that, the next thing once you diagnose that the next thing is send the patient to the hospital. OK. That was uh 19 eighties. Today is

01:05:29.300 - 01:05:45.469

still the same in the community only in big research center like us, then we make different plans to do it. So uh for me, I thought, hey, that might be, we might make a difference. That's one. And I, but while we were doing that, we went

01:05:45.479 - 01:06:02.830

in the situation. So the situation is uh sometimes to implant or, or my takes time uh takes effort and uh also a surgical procedure and, and in fact, all kind of complication and happen. So what I asked is what if we just do a spinal tap

01:06:02.840 - 01:06:19.100

in, in the spinal fluid that way, then let it flow. Although there is some theoretical disadvantage, but uh we might still um uh be able to get some benefit. So on that basis, I get a 2nd 99 to do that in human. Uh But then when

01:06:19.110 - 01:06:33.739

I do that, we went into a situation, we run into the situation is what if the i the way isotope be stuck in one place it stop and start in part of the spinal fluid or stuck in some places it's not going anywhere. Uh Is it

01:06:33.750 - 01:06:49.280

bad? Is it dangerous or how dangerous? Those are the questions that we, we want to find and that's how we build models. We build, we, meaning me and some scientists um we build different kind of model to do simulation to see how bad it can be

01:06:49.290 - 01:07:02.620

or how good it can be or what kind of edge, how far the edge it goes, Things like that by doing that, we actually have the model and that's what then um when we find, when I find out we actually can deliver a lot of radiation

01:07:02.629 - 01:07:18.290

to the, to the uh center and then some of them with the, some of them go different place and some of them, we design the medicine, we make the medicine to stay right there without going anywhere. Those, those medicine we actually are using already except not

01:07:18.300 - 01:07:38.399

with the uh therapeutic isotope, not for therapy purpose. So before that, um I, I incorporate into a third grant, actually, I incorporate in the third grant to apply to breast cancer, human breast cancer and apply to the US Army and then get the US Army funding.

01:07:38.409 - 01:07:52.419

They, they gave us uh uh they gave me a set a two percentile. So that's, and they give me full funding to do that, to do it in human. The goal is again to measure in human, with those models, measure in human, do picture to measure

01:07:52.429 - 01:08:10.949

in human. But we went into um we went into some situation uh because some rule change, some kind of internal situation the oversight committee will spend with our oversight committee. We can't do, especially knowing the law, knowing those, it's better not to do it. So following

01:08:10.959 - 01:08:24.770

the rule, following the law is very important. I think learning from the law side, then it become a natural to me. I mean, otherwise as a young buddy and enthusiastic scientist, then we can try to bridge the bridge there. But I didn't. So we follow the

01:08:24.779 - 01:08:40.089

rule and then not to do the human study. But then I turn around and say, hey, uh how many people you already gave me the monies in my, in my account already? Um But can I use it to do other things like uh like in breast

01:08:40.100 - 01:08:59.580

cancer in rats? How about uh breast cancer? Uh how about uh cancer in prostate and lungs? So I asked them and they say, OK, uh give us your plan and then we get the plan and then, so I change the human study into the animal study

01:08:59.660 - 01:09:12.250

to do all that. And the goal is to use different kind of isotope that we design. We make it some, we make it to stay, don't go away some, we make it to go away fast. So, but we have the tools, we have the tools to

01:09:12.259 - 01:09:27.709

see how fast they spread, how uh and how slow they spend how far they spread. We have those tools to measure, having those tools, then we are confident that we can control and we can measure. So that that was the basis of the pattern. The pattern

01:09:27.720 - 01:09:45.108

is of all those, the entire panel of chemicals of about 2020 some different isotopes, each of them have multiple compounds. So by doing that, I actually get the, get the US patent issue. Uh I didn't do this pattern navigation myself because according to institution rule is

01:09:45.119 - 01:10:02.608

outside patent attorney. But the thing is it becomes so much easier. We speak the exactly the same language because we don't call those signs. Interesting enough, all our stuff, all our things they call those are art prior art. It's a fine science but that in that

01:10:02.619 - 01:10:23.490

language, I, I was so comfortable and with the deadline with all those procedures I was familiar with. So we got it quite simple and after I get it, see getting a pattern is one thing are very urgent, very few pattern people get have license, but a

01:10:23.500 - 01:10:37.560

few are useful. I mean, I learned that in, in my pattern too, but then mine get mine actually get license before it was issued because when people find out, I still actually it turned out they were doing, they try to do those things. But then when

01:10:37.569 - 01:10:56.529

they look into the uh literature search, they find out that I already have the patent provisional patent application file and that's overlap and then they want to do it right. So they asked MD N Center, so the license means they give some fees to the royalty,

01:10:56.540 - 01:11:19.160

to the institution and then the institution allow them to do it. Um I, yeah, you are also licensed to practice law in China, um as well as Texas. And like, so does it help to have these licenses internationally? And have you ever practiced in China? I

01:11:19.169 - 01:11:35.120

think the main thing I learned that I look back a little bit now. That's another hiatus. Sometimes I never, I think I might just be restless or worthless or something like that. I don't go reckless that far with them. Um There's also some hiatus in different

01:11:35.129 - 01:11:53.020

ways too because uh sometimes things are busy. Sometimes we are this and that. So uh just to make it as simple as this, uh I actually find out, I mean, learning earlier, I was telling you the uh the international law actually should be very important. I

01:11:53.029 - 01:12:10.970

think, I actually think in the US, we should have been in the major core rather than as a elective. Um I, because I, I was born in Hong Kong long ago, so uh China opened up quite a bit and it's too, too many people to me

01:12:10.979 - 01:12:22.540

too because I, I had the contact with them because they invite me to give lectures sometime in Taiwan some time in China. I know that I went in a couple of times but I don't know them. I, when I go there, I'm just a tourist, I'm

01:12:22.549 - 01:12:42.220

just a uh uh invited speaker professor from overseas. And although I could understand from language I could understand. But then what I would, I did, I really did to me were foreign. Also different regime, different system, different politics, all that. But uh I think some time

01:12:42.229 - 01:13:01.000

about uh looking back 15 years ago, about 15 years ago, they opened up in China, they actually opened up quite a bit. They are, they are a lot of people in Hong Kong to um become a register lawyer in China, but they have to take it,

01:13:01.009 - 01:13:22.770

they have to take a exam. But the advantage I see is this the exam over there is covering 1.4 billion people. The buy exam in Texas cover 55 55 million people. So to me, the attraction, wow. Potentially I opened up a big clientele over there. Although

01:13:22.779 - 01:13:39.399

um my interest is really not exactly to be actively practicing daily law kind of thing. OK. But the attraction is hey I can learn there. Plus that was the way to meet. The attraction is now I learned their system. I learned the entire at least a

01:13:39.410 - 01:13:55.160

written system. OK. Law is just something in written, I mean, daily life and law are very different no matter in us in anywhere. OK? Even in pattern, it's different but at least the written part. And then so I took the chance to go over there, find

01:13:55.169 - 01:14:13.680

out some classes I can, some classes I can learn because I also have the law degree here, a law degree and license here. So they allow people from Hong Kong with law degree to at least take the exam to become a licensed to become lawyer over

01:14:13.689 - 01:14:28.189

there. Here we call attorney. So it took me a few years because I go, I went in there took some classes along. And most of the time when I'm invited to a to a lecture, I go then after I finished the lecture, I did not go

01:14:28.200 - 01:14:45.589

to the wining and dining and that just move over to the class place and take two weeks sometime occasionally. So doing that for a few years, then I took their, their test, that test is in Chinese, right? In Chinese. And then they actually have a taking

01:14:45.600 - 01:15:00.220

exam might I think I don't know about you but taking exam like multiple choice is easy, but there are multiple choice is not easy. There are multiple choices, multiple, multiple choice. It's not a single choice. You choose the correct one. So that means I figure out

01:15:00.229 - 01:15:17.899

some of them if I guess I have one out of 17 chance of being right, things like that. OK. So uh take the example, they still have a written the written part. Luckily they allow people to write a good traditional Chinese too. So II, I took

01:15:17.910 - 01:15:33.620

I during these few years, I brush up my old Chinese written Chinese, which I forget long ago. And then also I had the opportunity to learn to learn not only the uh the law, but learn their system to learn how to pace is one and keep

01:15:33.629 - 01:15:47.390

seeing the people back there. When I go back to see those people to take classes with them, they are common people. They are not unlike my, my law school classmate here. I had a really privilege to compare the two people, two kind of people, the lawyers,

01:15:47.399 - 01:16:03.339

the budding lawyers the same way. And plus, you know, I wasn't observing them, I was part of them, right in both sides. So, so being that then they don't, we don't, you don't have the observation bias and then they don't feel I was any different by

01:16:03.350 - 01:16:19.319

doing that. I actually observed the life in two sides uh over the time. And I really like to see the change to change, really change over quite a large amount. They are very much like us in many ways, the way they react to people, the way

01:16:19.330 - 01:16:35.009

to do conflict resolution. And then they still have some, I mean, like everywhere they have some different kind of regimental thing and then they still have slogans, they still have, but don't we have slogan too, right? So things like that give me a chance a rare

01:16:35.020 - 01:16:52.700

chance to see both sides. See the society, see, see the everyday people life and I really enjoy it. And then finally I passed, I passed that exam in, I think it's 2013. I passed it. And then also they, I had a great opportunity to go into

01:16:52.709 - 01:17:10.250

p cases in the courthouse over there. Uh Yeah. Um I, so they actually require me to be involved in 10 cases. So II I was involved in 10 cases, uh went to court and get their document and then with that, they let me register. So I

01:17:10.259 - 01:17:33.600

become a register lawyer. But with the COVID these days, I haven't even gone back much, but I only keep up my continued legal education over there actually online very much like us here. My continued legal education in Texas also maintained to online. OK. Bye. Yeah. So

01:17:33.799 - 01:17:51.009

you talked a bit about your business school experience. Um What did you enjoy about it? And was it different from the other educational experiences that you've had um about the business school thing? I actually met different people, the people from all walks and most of them

01:17:51.020 - 01:18:07.240

are from, they are already in business. Interesting people interest the way they are. I would say earlier, I was saying the science and medicine, we are very tight in our causal relationship cause of one cause the other, we want to prove it multiple times in different

01:18:07.250 - 01:18:21.790

way in law, there are different ways of doing it. They have a different angle. And all that. But in business that's even more loose sometimes it's, it's not easy to grapple. But then if you think you can go into a free mind, free association, you, it

01:18:21.799 - 01:18:38.810

will be a wrong thing to do because you end up, you lose your, your business. Uh, so one still have to follow what you mean. I would say still need to follow discipline, some discipline, some principles you follow that. You do. Ok. In the law school,

01:18:38.819 - 01:18:52.069

I mean, the business school and in fact, I think in business is the same thing too, the rules are very different but doesn't mean there's no rule, put it that way. You have to follow those rules and you follow it right. Then you'll do really well

01:18:52.080 - 01:19:13.009

either in school or in business. But if you don't follow those, you just become another and then, uh, well, might be another textbook case or something like that. That might not be what you want. Yeah. Ok. So kind of transitioning to your present occupation. You mentioned

01:19:13.020 - 01:19:35.470

that you are a professor of nuclear medicine and neuro oncology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center. Um, so you've had multiple impressive publications, grants and honors. Um, what made you decide to transition into becoming a professor? Um, instead of like maybe a physician and instead I'm

01:19:35.479 - 01:19:54.180

a physician too. I'm a p Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, actually I, uh, as I told you earlier, most place, a place they have two appointments. One is a physician appointment. One is uh in the hospital when I came to MD Anderson, I get joint appointment. I

01:19:54.189 - 01:20:10.370

can join an appointment to two places but to two department also neuro oncology and nuclear medicine. So in both places, I practiced medicine. Um and then for the professor part from the university academic ranking. But I do actually the things I do have a lot to

01:20:10.379 - 01:20:30.819

do with professor professor to like getting research, doing research, getting grants, getting publication. Those are for professor work. And uh then I teach, I teach medical students in uh in some, some rarely in beta but then often in mcgovern. And also I teach mostly what we

01:20:30.830 - 01:20:46.379

are. Our main mission is to teach uh resident and fellows. For us, we teach more fellows. So many people will stay in our place to learn 1 to 1 learning, sometimes one to many, but mostly it's like apprenticeship kind of situation. But we don't, that's not

01:20:46.390 - 01:21:01.209

what we call it. But um the people spend a year from overseas or from other institution and some do it for a for a board. Some don't do it for a board to us doesn't matter. OK? And then depends on what they want to do. Sometimes

01:21:01.220 - 01:21:16.089

with overseas uh physicians, even though they are very permanent, very good physician from overseas, we cannot let them touch patient. So they have to do the paperwork research and to our two bench top in the lab kind of research. And we, what we help them to

01:21:16.100 - 01:21:36.209

help them guide their research, help them write the paper and go help them to get grants and those what we do. And obviously the white paper we, that's how accumulate the papers through the, through the time and that's how this book is written with that. Yeah.

01:21:36.220 - 01:21:58.120

So you and supervised, oh, you've mentored and supervised the research of a number of students. And um what, what is like the most important thing you um you've learned in mentoring students in research. Um Now, in, in research, I think there are several uh some came

01:21:58.129 - 01:22:09.200

in that we train um we, we have to give them the, they, they need to know the basics. Number one, they need to be smart. Most of them are smart. If not, they are not, they won't be here OK in the first place, but learn the

01:22:09.209 - 01:22:26.859

discipline of working. And then we, we have very tight a causal relationship. Why a call be a must cause b if you cannot be for uh you know, that kind of culture relationship, we, we are really stringent in establishing those criteria. And that's why they need

01:22:26.870 - 01:22:46.970

to learn statistics and to the quantitative methods and all that. Uh And also they need to have a good, good kind of um I would say discipline to themselves, to dedicate to the world because we are often uh unfortunately, I mean, unfortunately, I think my own

01:22:46.979 - 01:23:08.799

experiences, most of the project fail. Mine too. Mine, I'm writing another book to talk about those things to the failed projects. But the thing is when you give up your discipline and then by the time you find the success that will be unshakeable rather than uh

01:23:08.910 - 01:23:27.990

and that time I actually found accidental, I found couple as incidental kind of uh great, great findings by holding up to the to the principle. Uh One example I tell you is um that I emphasize to all my research people is that when you do simple

01:23:28.000 - 01:23:41.390

thing, when we do experiment in just some drug to treat the cancer in the rat, we don't just, we, we do raise up, we see we implant the tumor in the red or induce the tumor in the red and then we treat it. But we always

01:23:41.399 - 01:23:59.410

do that with me. We always do a control group with without control, go one step. OK? And if your control will be sweat, everything has to be thrown away. OK? Or everything have a different meaning. And it's, I emphasize to everyone that they work with me

01:23:59.419 - 01:24:18.729

on that too. That's just one example. They really need to follow the uh stringent kind of um uh criteria rather than to, to make a conclusion. Don't make too, don't make conclusion too loosely because the fact is if you look at the, look at the, the

01:24:18.740 - 01:24:34.779

recent years, uh recent year about COVID people look up to scientific findings. If you are not tight, many things will be wrong, right? You have seen when things are not tight, so many bad things can happen, right? So that's one thing I emphasize have been emphasizing

01:24:34.790 - 01:24:48.939

to them, make sure, make sure you are credible. Then by doing that following those disciplines, then you are credible. You have to build your credibility too, then you can follow your own world in the future. Otherwise, even you don't trust your own thing, then what you

01:24:48.950 - 01:25:12.370

do and then things will be very loose. OK. So those are the things I emphasize. And um so you've, you've also received multiple honors, including the Young Clinical Chemist Award Fellow of the American Academy of Neurology Fellow of Clinical uh sorry Fellow of American College of

01:25:12.379 - 01:25:26.930

Nuclear Medicine, and Fellow of American College of Legal Medicine. Um Can you elaborate on all these honors? Now, the first one, actually, I didn't get too many honors, but this is something I can think of. Uh the first one I was in, I think 1983. Is

01:25:26.939 - 01:25:49.200

that right? Uh The Yeah. Uh that was my uh phd research presentation to the uh to the American Society of Clinical Chemistry. And that was I was about to finish my degree. And so I just present what I found about the fluorescence polarization immuno essay. Um

01:25:49.290 - 01:26:03.049

So then when I present they give me a word I say, OK, I like it and I did not pursue much. And now I noticed I actually, I myself serve on different kind of boards and we build committee. I noticed people so many honors. I said,

01:26:03.060 - 01:26:17.060

00, boy, how come I don't have with those, but I, I don't, I mean, looking back, I only count the one that I think is important. And then those three, they come in the same year, the three fellowship because that's the time when I finished, that's

01:26:17.069 - 01:26:31.319

a year I finished my uh my JDMBA, I think, ok, now I'm coming back to real life. I'm finished, finally finish school. But that's actually, it's not finally. But uh now I finished school, I thought I'm going to real life. And then, ok, since this guy,

01:26:31.330 - 01:26:47.990

this organization gave uh gave the, gave those honors, gave the fellowship out, then I just, I OK, I'll take it. So all of a sudden in three years, I get all three, I think they probably were, they all were impressed by, by my double, double degrees.

01:26:48.020 - 01:27:04.580

I think that's one plus some of them like the um uh some of them, they require me to have a board, like the legal medicine, they require me to have the legal medicine board. So I had those boards too. So having those boards and uh I

01:27:04.600 - 01:27:25.109

think for the nuclear medicine and I think several of them man I had, it's because uh I also have uh well, now I think most of it is because of that. Um But after, after, afterwards I did, I did not seek it, I did not seek

01:27:25.120 - 01:27:42.919

it. And looking back there might be some hiatus, right? I didn't seek it and then it's OK. So I think it's nice to have the honor but then uh uh just maybe further in the hat. Um So you, you were also the vice chairperson of the

01:27:42.930 - 01:28:01.109

second Institutional Review Board at the University of Texas MD Anderson Center. So what was this position like? And what was your experience? Uh that was an invited position? I I think also about the time about the time I finished when people heard about me, my, my

01:28:01.120 - 01:28:15.419

JD, my Lord, my by law law license, then they start talking to me and say, OK, OK, great. I get you here to talk to us and also tell us about nuclear medicine. You can help us just those things. So the experience is we help see

01:28:16.029 - 01:28:29.649

uh when we do human study in any institution, now they require to have the, they call the IRB Institutional Review Board. We have five of them or four. I forgot we have many of them. Uh They all look at different things. Some look at the behavioral

01:28:29.660 - 01:28:48.240

things, some look at the experimental things, some look at the more clinical range oriented stuff. Uh The job is to make sure have a good discussion among different kind of people. I think it's a good thing. Sometimes we, we actually have community member too. Some people,

01:28:48.250 - 01:29:03.339

they are non physician, they are just some, some, some of our previous patient or some other people, they are willing to, they have good character. Then we, we can trust and have, have us to review the study. And everybody asked question from their side, like the

01:29:03.350 - 01:29:22.779

statistician. And we have a basic science. We have um clinical science and then we have some very uh pure just doing clinical work people and some nurse too. And some of them have chaplains there too. But all these people is to see whether that research will

01:29:22.790 - 01:29:38.810

help people. The goal for this IRB is to see whether it help people. Uh if it cause harm makes you too, not too much harm also, not only not harm the people, hopefully this doesn't harm the society too. And there are some discussion we had before

01:29:38.819 - 01:29:57.839

for it not harm people's don't harm the pocket. Uh people's pocket too much to not start. There is some talk about financial toxicity. So all these are reasonable and these are the community concern that through this, through the IRB to extra to uh oversee the institution.

01:29:58.040 - 01:30:16.169

Uh It's a good thing, important thing. Part of my job is to will be in the committee and also to particular, we will uh we circulate around some of the the important things. Plus when they make change, when these are the things they are proved invariably

01:30:16.180 - 01:30:34.290

they make change. But when they make change, we want to be sure these changes are not too overtly bad. That's often the change are minor. The change like adding some person's name, uh, they left already the institution or I think some day they are just coming

01:30:34.299 - 01:30:47.990

in. Some people left or some people don't want to be part of it or something like that. So those are administrative thing. a for proof that require more than what we do. My job is ask them, I actually pick up the phone and ask them, hey,

01:30:48.000 - 01:31:03.299

what's this? Tell me more about it. I need to know and I'm calling from the IRB and then mostly people are very polite and then they, they, because they want to get through uh by asking that and if there's a big problem I write down and

01:31:03.310 - 01:31:18.700

then my job is bring back my conclusion, my recommendation to the big board and tell the big board about most of the time. Once I tell the Western nurse, OK, I think it's OK or I think it's not then, then we, that's a 2nd, 2nd level

01:31:18.709 - 01:31:41.140

of overview. This is very important continuously, we review them. So that's to keep the human research credible. And then so people, things come out from must have a scientific basis, have a good community and ethical concern. Mhm So now we'll transition into just general life questions.

01:31:41.669 - 01:32:00.370

OK. Yeah, you mentioned you were married. Um, so where, where did you meet your wife? And when was that, I met my wife in Los Angeles, but I was, but I was a resident, I was a resident doctor in UCL A and, um, then she was

01:32:00.379 - 01:32:16.620

there, well, she was there to, uh, she was doing, helping her family to do some business. They were running some, some corporation there. And, uh, then the interesting part is actually this talking about at that time, I already, by the time I met her, I already

01:32:16.629 - 01:32:33.740

applied to the Loyola Law School part time program. But then when the issue come up, issue come up, whether I have a wife or have law school. And then that time, then I chose a wife but doesn't mean I couldn't get the law school back the

01:32:33.750 - 01:32:50.939

other way around would be to. So I did. Yeah. So I did. And then that's where I met her. Then, then uh then we, we moved to Baltimore for Johns Hopkins. And that's the place where we had our first child, a baby daughter. Uh she, she

01:32:50.950 - 01:33:11.529

turned, she finally turned into a patent attorney. Uh and then um we moved after we moved to Baltimore, then we moved to Houston. And in, well, when we get to Houston, then I really like the place. Have so many things I can, I, I actually did

01:33:11.540 - 01:33:29.180

well in the lab from the affinity finding along with my other people. And then I was in the clinic and I was, I was really having a good time. Um, so how would you say you balance, uh, work in life because, yeah. Um, it's not easy.

01:33:29.189 - 01:33:49.350

It's not easy. Yeah. But at times, um, you know, actually at times I, at least the work I actually enjoy. But then, um, the regular life and my family life, I really, I was fortunate I had my mother staying with the Children. So during several years,

01:33:49.359 - 01:34:05.129

then at least they can be on their own. And of course, I'm home, I'm home at night and, and in weekends and they, they will see me. But they, I would say, yeah, I was busy too. Ok. It's not easy. But then having my mother there,

01:34:05.140 - 01:34:26.200

my wife actually uh it's very um as they both, they both helped me to take care of the family. So uh I, I'm really blessed. Ok. So now um and then I try to have time to keep them company and then we actually travel when I'm

01:34:26.209 - 01:34:43.399

not busy, but we actually manage to almost go, go back to Asia. We used to make a, make a trip to Hong Kong, Singapore and back here back to um back to the United States. We make it almost every year as in a summer trip. Yeah,

01:34:43.410 - 01:35:02.029

maybe a week or two in Hong Kong, a couple of weeks in Singapore and then come back to, to the uh to Houston. So we do we do spend some time traveling, seeing family in different places too. And then when the Children grow older, now I

01:35:02.040 - 01:35:25.689

have more time, especially those, those two boys, I took them to do different things to do boy things like. Yeah. Um and then I'm my two Children. Follow my suit. Um My two Children, let me see what I Brian and Brian and uh Kelvin. Uh now

01:35:25.700 - 01:35:47.540

these are my Children. Are you able to see them? Let me, let me try and you will see them. Yes, on the left, on the left. Yeah, uh the far left, this is, this is Calvin, this is Brian. My wife, Amelia is my daughter, my son

01:35:47.549 - 01:36:07.100

in law, this just was taken maybe about a month ago. So yeah, with the fight. So the boys, actually, these two boys, these two boys, they um, Brian become a licensed pilot when he was 17 years old. I told him I talk actually I kind of

01:36:07.109 - 01:36:22.700

uh I took them all three have tried. All my daughter has flown to, they, they start some flight training and uh and I mean, the thing is I just have to go with them, encourage them and all that. And so so does uh Kelvin, Kelvin also

01:36:22.709 - 01:36:39.600

get this high license at 18. So with those time I had to go with them. Um, and, and Mia does different things too, but then she also start flying a little bit. But then afterwards then you get busy with others. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, I also

01:36:39.609 - 01:36:59.770

saw that you do have a pilot's license and you like fly helicopters and other aircraft. That's, those are the fun things that I do. I mean, in between, in between work, in between other things. I start flying actually in Chicago. Actually I stopped flying in Arizona

01:37:00.080 - 01:37:17.580

when I was a graduate student. Then I saw those Cessna had a program that entice people discovery, right? And that's how I started in Arizona. But then I couldn't do too far. Uh At that time, graduate school is important, must, must finish and then move on.

01:37:18.189 - 01:37:36.620

Then I continue in Chicago um in Chicago. Then I, I get my pilot license one. OK. Actually, how we did this, how I did it was this in Chicago when I finished my PM exam for the phd, I had a one month to prepare for it

01:37:36.629 - 01:37:51.649

and then I have one week left for vacation. So during that week, I say, oh II, I remember this fine thing. Well, so I just went to study the written part of the FAA exam, the FAA pilot. Like I have an exam. You, you, we need

01:37:51.660 - 01:38:07.450

to do the uh we need to finish it before we start solo. So I finished that and then I took the exam and passed. Then I said, OK, now I can start and then that's how I started frying. So everything I did it between in between

01:38:07.459 - 01:38:24.759

busy time, in between busy time. Then, then I did. And during my dissertation time, I actually have some time I had some time during the dissertation because sometimes things just don't move. And sometimes the, the advisor is reviewing the dissertation, we can't do a thing about

01:38:24.770 - 01:38:42.500

it and they talk about. So those are the time I actually talk to finish, complete my training in flight and I get it, I get that pilot license before, right before I start medical school classes. Uh, because I figure if I start medical school, I will

01:38:42.509 - 01:38:57.879

not have the time to fly and turn out. That's true. I stopped more than 10 years. I stopped more than 10 years, not flying and finally pick up again. Uh, pick up again. Um, I've been a little more than 10, 15 years ago. I pick up

01:38:57.890 - 01:39:17.799

again. Yeah. So what led you to pursue, like, such a unique hobby, such as I think? Well, it's just a simple, I think, simple instinct because I think, don't you think boys, like, what do if you ask a young boy? A five year old? What do

01:39:17.810 - 01:39:35.609

they like? They like all the, I was sure, um, same thing for my Children. They like, they like the plane and all that. But, uh, I mean, being able to go three dimensions, that's one, all the freedom. And once I started, uh, I took the discovery

01:39:35.620 - 01:39:50.189

fight just for discovery. Not, not, not expecting much, but finally I can go so much. Everything is under my control, up and down, up and down to go different dimension rather than the ground, right? The ground. You are two dimensions and all the fun thing. So

01:39:50.200 - 01:40:11.229

that entice me into that. And then I flew more actually, after I get license I flew more, I flew about 100 and 50 or 300 hours. Totally. Then, um, when I, OK, it goes like this, my, uh, after, you know, I stopped from, uh, from, uh,

01:40:11.240 - 01:40:29.640

medical after medical school, I only flew a couple of times, took friends up and all that. But then, um, my wife start saying after getting married, my father say you have young wife, you have a young Children, it's better not to fry. And we giving that

01:40:29.649 - 01:40:47.629

I took the hint, right? So after a while, after a while after, after the Children are grown and I kind of looked at the side, the wife, it's no longer too young. And I asked and in, in some situation because I took a few, I took

01:40:47.640 - 01:41:02.009

a few small plane flies in Alaska. I was hunting but I thought a few, I, I feel a flight during the flight say, wow, hey, now I, I'm getting back to the flying experience and, and all that because those are, um, I sat on the copilot

01:41:02.020 - 01:41:14.640

seat with the pilot because I, I told them I know flying. So then when I went back home and then I just say, how about, maybe I'll just start flying again and then I'll, I'll get all the Children in. That's how I started. So when the

01:41:14.649 - 01:41:30.379

Children start flying, then I fly too. And then, so my wife allowed me to fly and then when I fly a little bit, then I say, hm, might be the, and the place they flew, the place my Children flew has a helicopter school. So it's so

01:41:30.390 - 01:41:47.569

easy to transit. And then once I get into helicopter, it's so much different because I, I don't need to go forward, but regular plane, one must go forward. Right. But, uh, helicopter, we don't have to, we can even go backwards. And, and so with that, yeah,

01:41:47.580 - 01:42:02.770

with that. And then, uh, then I start doing it, I have done about 100 and 50 hours of uh, helicopter. Um, and to so far I really like it because those are so unique. Those are unique things. And I think one of the things actually is

01:42:02.779 - 01:42:17.209

this, I think I better make good use of my free time because other things are so strange and all the work, all the research, all the clinic, all the, and everything has so much demand. Maybe we make good use of free time. And, uh, well, these

01:42:17.220 - 01:42:34.810

are good use and that's what I taught my Children. And then they took that too. They, they took that and then, so they, um, the first possible instance, uh, 17 is the youngest one can get the license. So, my son, my, uh, Brian did that and

01:42:34.890 - 01:42:53.370

Calvin got it at 18 and they have been taking friends up, taking friends up and then enjoying the three dimension. Yeah. Oh, I guess how do you manage your time to be able to do so much? Um, is there like any secrets? No, no, no particular

01:42:53.379 - 01:43:07.750

secret because I, I try not to waste time. I try. There are many things that waste time. OK. And uh they are activities too. So I would say I, I might not still be the best person to make best use of time, still there. But um

01:43:08.229 - 01:43:23.959

say like the double one thing if, if you think about the time I did the, I did a double degree in uh MD P in six years, that's the shortest one. But that's just, well, maybe just natural. One trick is uh minimize the time in the,

01:43:23.970 - 01:43:41.549

in the, in the thesis. And then I did so with the JDMB A also same thing because I minimize the time on the GD part. But uh other, for other things, we, I think we have to plan ahead, plan ahead, look forward. And also I think

01:43:41.560 - 01:43:59.439

the one good thing, one very important thing I'm very fortunate is to have a stable family, having stable, stable family, very supporting family, my kids too, my kids when I was away, didn't, didn't do too many crazy things to get my attention. And finally when I'm

01:43:59.450 - 01:44:14.000

home, then when I'm back then I, I've accompanied them or do different things with them. And uh my wife is so supportive to manage everything. So those, I think those are the, the main thing. So we managed to go different pa, we actually manage to go

01:44:14.009 - 01:44:34.129

different place every year to, yeah. And we don't have too many bad habits if you go flying very heavy. That's tough. Right? Yeah. Um So yeah, you've already achieved so much. But do you have a vision of how you want to lead the rest of your

01:44:34.140 - 01:44:53.200

life and any projects for the future? Yeah. You know, you have to speak of an interesting thing. I've been looking into that. I've been looking into that and then uh and especially well with times and you start, people start, we, we start getting things like retirement

01:44:53.209 - 01:45:04.419

planning, all these things that you won't, you will, but you will, by the time you go get your first job, then they will ask you if retirement planning to you. It didn't mean a thing to me. It didn't mean a thing when they first asked me.

01:45:04.430 - 01:45:17.990

I said, OK, I just signed my name. OK, get it out of my way. I don't want to hear about it. Just put it aside, right? But then stop people. Now people have said so I stopped looking into that in our, in the field where I'm

01:45:18.000 - 01:45:34.149

working at first about work. We have many interesting exciting things, the nuclear medicine side now, not only will for me, the the thing I enjoy most is I can study anything in the body, literally from head to toe. There's no, there's no organ, no tissue. I

01:45:34.160 - 01:45:45.319

don't go to that. I don't go to, I cannot go to. So uh sometimes if I cannot go to ask my colleague to help me get to and then I put my stuff there and then look at that, which is fun. OK? We do it in

01:45:45.330 - 01:46:02.680

animal and do in people for of how to help them. And now they are more uh radiopharmaceutical actually to treat disease. There are more and more now there are more drugs to treat disease, but also in the radioactive medicine to treat disease. And that will keep

01:46:02.689 - 01:46:19.600

us very busy. Uh keep keep uh so if I want to stay into this, uh stay into this same situation, you will take up, probably take, I can stay properly. My guess is at least 10 years like that. But the next question is, what are you

01:46:19.609 - 01:46:35.569

gonna do after 10 years? Right. And the second question is what if less than 10 years, I mean, those, those are questions that have gone through my mind quite a bit. But for me, I think right now one thing is, I think I will like keeping

01:46:35.580 - 01:46:55.509

up to know the world to the to know everything because right now things are changing so much. The internet changed everything into different world, the Cryptocurrency, right. Change so much to, and all these new digital things coming up. So I actually took a class, uh, I'm

01:46:55.520 - 01:47:14.299

still taking it, uh, they call, uh, in, in updating myself in the digital world and, and what to do after the, or what to do. Uh, uh, well, future planning, future forward looking, kind of a continuing kind of education to me, I think continued education is

01:47:14.310 - 01:47:29.779

great. And in the low side, then I'm continuing in the medicine side. I'm continuing both in uh in neurology and nuclear medicine and in general medicine too. So keeping up with the flow is a good thing. And then knowing what it is like yesterday, I finished

01:47:29.790 - 01:47:44.509

my AC LS advanced cardiac life support training and find out that things have improved so much. This is what we do every two years as a doctor, every two years. I like to update it to make sure if I see somebody die on the street, then

01:47:44.520 - 01:48:02.149

I can go help more than CPR. So all those things, I think if we keep it updated and um we are still relevant. So most important is keep ourselves relevant. And the other question is now when Children are grown, even as I told you, Kelvin is

01:48:02.160 - 01:48:16.220

going to medical school, so now we really have the empty nest. So what are we going to do. I think, I think keeping us relevant to the world that's important. Depends on where's our world too. Right. I mean, so there we have for us, we have

01:48:16.229 - 01:48:33.350

some family back overseas and we have now we have more family here and we have a people, the people around us and then the people at work. So I think the key is just keep ourselves relevant. Ok. Well, those are all the questions I had. Is

01:48:33.359 - 01:48:55.060

there anything I might have missed or anything you would like to add? No, I, I, yeah, I, no, I don't think so. But uh you know, perhaps one thing you see, I go, I keep going different, going through different boundaries, right? Keep bringing boundaries. Keep, you

01:48:55.069 - 01:49:14.040

know, one thing that might be perhaps I can relate this lately when I look back I related kind of interesting. Now people talk about when they take an exam. What did they find? I took an exam long ago, 1970 1972. That's when I finished or they

01:49:14.049 - 01:49:29.910

call it, finish high school. And at that time, we tried very hard to do well. And then I told my subjects and I was, look at that time, I get a shot when I get those grades. But then um looking back, I think it's quite uh

01:49:29.919 - 01:49:50.919

quite revealing. It's only retrospectively I now at that time in, in Hong Kong, those they got a certificate exam uh that time for high school, uh, quite tough. A means top 1% or top 0.5%. B is the next one or 2%. C is next 7% like

01:49:50.930 - 01:50:08.339

that. Many people, many of I was looking for up to a, uh, two of my previous schoolmates, they make nine A in nine subjects. I mean, of course it's good. Right. And we wish so working hard in high school trying to do that. And I get

01:50:08.700 - 01:50:25.529

two A one A is in physics. I think it's natural. I'm so good in physics. I know I study hard. I must be good. I deserve a and the second day I get is world history I think. Wow. Where does it come from? The third one

01:50:25.540 - 01:50:42.549

is Chinese history. That one I got to see, I say, hey, I thought I knew this stuff. So from that on, I think what they show is the diversity, which is the diversity. And I think if we pursue the diversity and so somehow I was the

01:50:42.560 - 01:50:56.470

way that I go, I was going to that diversity rather than my favorite subject was chemistry. At that time, my chemistry was just a BB, meaning the top 2% or so, not top 1%. But still. So, you know how we feel about A and B, right?

01:50:56.479 - 01:51:12.189

I was in college. So now I get several pieces and then they are all the same. They are all my best subject. But then surprisingly the other best is history, I think. Ok. So I think that's true. Actually, looking back that might be what direct me

01:51:12.200 - 01:51:32.930

because I was looking for breath and in addition to death, I was looking for breath and that's how my breath in biology, in, uh government and public administration and in, later in law and in, in pharmacology and then in pathology, medicine, law and business. So looking

01:51:32.939 - 01:51:45.250

back, I think it's a great thing to know so much. I did not make use of every single degree, but then I don't mean to, and sometimes it's something I, I like to learn and make, just make a land as a landmark and move on in

01:51:45.259 - 01:51:50.899

life. Well, thank you so much. Um.