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Today is May 19, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. Today we're interviewing Eva Ren in the "People of

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Art" special collection of the archive. Thank you so much, Eva, for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for your invite. To start, can you tell us when and where were you born?

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I was born in 1996, in Beijing, China. Can you share with us the neighborhood you grew up in, and some of the childhood memories you've had in Beijing? You know, what kind of childhood memory, like...?

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Like, any of your earliest memories that you had, and anything that stood out in your childhood memories? Well, so for me, like, because like I- for other— like other my friends, they are like living in different

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cities when they're young. But for me, I spent, like 18 years in Beijing, like only one city. I never moved to another house, even like, I stayed at exactly the same house for the 18

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years. And that means that I can see how fast like development were like, how environments can change around us. That also lead me to some like question about thinking of...

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So for me, I can see myself like growing up as so like a certain pace, but the city like, in some ways, like, changed even faster than I... for the pace that I grew up.

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And for the memory is like, before, like, the neighborhood that I live in, is called “Jintu Si” and it's literally a temple, like for people to go there and chill, as if there's nothing else. And then like, the school and the university,

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like joined the neighborhood, and then like, but before the road is kind of like, like, very, like, natural... without any, like, doesn't look like a high end, like neighborhood like that.

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But then like after like, five years or ten years, and then you can see that, oh, like there're a new school coming in. It's like a shopping mall and restaurants. And then it becomes like the center of that district.

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So yeah, it's very interesting and weird to see that they are, like childhood neighborhood changed so much. Yeah, that's really interesting. You kind of grew up in the time where it's a lot of like,

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city developments and probably gentrification as well. And can you share with us some of the memories of any of the childhood games that you played? Childhood game?

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Well, let me think about it, because I'm really bad at games. So like, not only the computer game, but I mean, I am bad as any kind of game .

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So yeah, it's a very hard question for me. But... uh, for game I'm thinking about like, like, we usually play outside of our building, and just like, not like an actual

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playground, but like a backyard garden, for a lot of students who play together. And at that time, we kind of... well like most of the game doesn't have a name. It just... like we kind of trade our own game but using like the

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plants or the tree with the flower and also we have some like, cats and dogs in the yard as well. Just.... Yeah, that's kind of like the normal like ordinary childhood memory for us.

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Like there's no certain games right that we usually play. I know like for other other kids, probably they're like stayed at home. Because when I was in primary school, like mostly, like most of the family already have computer at home; but at that time, there's

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no- much computer game available. And I'm definitely not a fan of computer at the time, even now and... yes using it for work. But before I was like, okay computer is for, for work, for study, but definitely not for

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game. Thank you for sharing. And can you share with us what kind of the family values that your parents instilled you with during your upbringing?

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And can you tell us a little bit about your parents? Family value? Do you mean that something that my parents always, like, tell me? Or how do you define family

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value? For example, like honesty, and for, I guess, Asian families like Confucian values, or like, any kind of spirituality that they brought you up with.

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I mean, for my family, I think one of the most important, like, not like rules, but like, one thing very important for my family is like, never take anything for granted. And also, not only just show your gratitude, but

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also you have to do something to like, let the other people know that, "Oh, like, not only you thank them for what they're doing, but also to give back," to always like... Yeah, this is something. And also, I think the other thing would probably

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be like, always see the bright side, like, in every situation. Yeah, this is kind of like more, like attitude, towards life and towards anything that happened to us. Thank you for sharing.

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And can you tell us a little bit about your early education in primary school and secondary school? Oh, my education? Well, that's a really broad question.

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I don't know where to start to be honest. So what, what was some of the kind of demographics like in your school? Like was it mostly people locally from Beijing, and what were some of your fondest memories

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about teachers, about your classmates? And did you grow any kind of lasting friendships from that group of classmates? I think, I don't know other cities, but I know that in Beijing, especially for primary and like, middle school,

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people always just find a school that near your house or like, in your neighborhood. And that caused us like, all of your friends in your class were like, even like everybody in your school live in the same

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neighborhood. And I remember that some of my friends, like, the restaurant across my street, it's, like, the owner, the owner of the restaurant, like my classmates's father, something like

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that. And it's like, very different kind of feeling. Because I noticed that right now, even like, I have some family members do like, live there in that neighborhood, and also their kids go to the same school that I went before.

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Like, based on me that, oh, the demographic is definitely different than like before, like when I was in school; because before like everybody, not only from Beijing, only one or two cases, from other cities, then we can,

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like recognize, like his or her accent. Although it's not that strange to hear different like accent that we can, like, definitely tell that then we're very, everybody's interesting in

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their personal hurry, because we're kind of like, we all know each other, although we never met each other because we're in the same neighborhood. And can you tell us about your Chinese name, and whether it had

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kind of carried a metaphoric meaning behind it? Um, sure. Yeah. My Chinese name has two words. One is "Yi" means art and culture.

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And the second word "Su". So I have two different meanings. The first like the direct meaning is like, the food, the weed; and- and also the second like, its indirect meaning come from four words'

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Chinese saying, "滄海一粟 " , because it's, well, I mean, like my parents, definitely not think like that. But for me, like when I growing up and thinking about my name, I kind of see it like,

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we have to know who we are we like, we are just like the normal person in this world; you have to know like, how big the world is. And we, I mean like it's very

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interesting to recognize like we're... How can I say? Put in this way. Probably be like, in our own perspective, we are the

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world. Like everything we see, we feel and we think, it's... We are ours, like we are ourselves own worlds. For other people we're the same; like, if like, I don't know, you and like, we just met each other on the street, then like,

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there's like no difference between you or me, we're just human beings. Like, although like we have different backgrounds, like different stories, that like, other people are not gonna care. And so that's also come back to

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kinda like the family, family called, like, never take anything for gratitude; and it was like, every time you meet a person, or like have a chance to talk to him or her, you have to be very patient. And it's very...

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Yeah, just it's more like, we have to value each other in our life. And because it's more like a weed or a rice in the ocean, kind of like

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that, we it's so difficult for people to meet and to join your life. Well, that was absolutely beautiful and so poetic as well. And who gave you that name?

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I think like my family members, because I think altogether. And then the second, the first word, "art and culture" is the cause like, mostly of my family member are in art and culture industry. So they're kind of like, "oh,

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probably, Eva is going to be one of us." So they have this, like, yeah, hope that I'll— in the art industry. And right now, yeah, I am in the art industry. So. That's, that's wonderful.

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And moving on that I also want to ask about the point of contact, like the first influence and first inspiration for you to become interested... to pursue art. I think like,

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just as, as that's nice, all of my family members are kind of in the art and culture industry. So I never think about, like, there's no moment like, "Oh, I'm interested in art." Because

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it's like a normie in my family, like everybody talks about it. And it's like, because I remember, like, I used just when I do like math, or have to write something, I just find the, like waste paper in my, in my house.

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And like, it's always like some, like movies with or some like a drama related, yeah, paper, and I can see the image, like behind it. Also there's story with the telling. And for me, it's like very normal, but

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like, oh, in this letter, one time my friends came to my house, and she told me that, "Oh, like, I never see this kind of thing in my house." And I just used, because, like, her parents are like, university professors.

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For her, like her paper is like that's, like, very academy theory related. Just like paper as different kind of, yeah, very, that kind of thing. But for me, it's like are related.

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So I think this is something like interesting to notice. That, oh, I'm in an art family. Wonderful. So you started appreciating art since you were young then?

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Did you practice painting, or drawing? Uh, yeah. And because for me, I always as, as a hobby or as a habit. I'm always like, likes being creative. I like to

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draw like paint, and also writes, not only to write whatever I feel like; and also like poem or different kinds of favourite things. And I think all of them can be summaries as a way of expressing, just because

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it's also related to like, people's personality. Because from other people, they're like very actual words; and when they communicate

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with other people work, when they face the world, when they're in different situations, they can directly react to the— to what's going on. But for introverted people like us, I'm more like— okay,

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I need to use some period of time afterwards. So, usually like the things already finished, or after everything happened, and then I can then to

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digest what happens; or there like so many things that I didn't express to the outside. So like, for example, writing or painting is another way to let it go or to show

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the world. Yeah, that's fascinating. And who would you call your first teacher in, or your first mentor that brought you to art? In art industry? Um, I mean, like, well, he's definitely

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not my first art related teacher, but he's somebody kind of read this, like, give me like, make me think that, "Oh, art is not limited to what I'm thinking of." Like, they're

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another brand new world about like art. And he's the, like, my college professor, he is a full-time artists himself, and then it's also kind of like, my first time to know contemporary artists.

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Because before, especially back in China, like the old education or focusing on the art history part; or like, all the old masters or just like, very organized the art history framework.

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And then like, when I went to my college, and I took a lot of like, a general study art side. In that class is like, kind of break down into different categories, like painting, sculpture, video,

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new mediums, etc, etc. And then, like, this professor, named like, Daniel Martinez, he is like a very wild style. Just because for him he’s like, full of

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tattoos. And I'm not sure he's awake or not, like, when he came to my class. But he's definitely very knowledgeable, and also have a lot of new perspectives in the, like, contemporary art. So all the artworks that he showed to me, kind of

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like, give me like, make me redefine what this art; and like, kind of want me to, like focus on contemporary art rather than art in general or other periods. Would you call anyone in your family, your first kind of teacher in

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the art, or...? Teacher in the art? Like a my family? Well, because my father was a photographer, and then

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he makes a documentary, like filmmakers. So that's kind of like making me always like to do photography, like do photo shoots. When I was little, like, every time we go to travel, and then

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like my father always with, with a lot of camera lens; and I'm kind of like the one who carry the bag with him to like, go, like to travel altogether. And even when I was five or six, he kind of let

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me to hold the— I don't know how expensive the camera is, but I know it's very expensive, especially the lens— he can just like give me the whole thing and let me to do whatever I want. So it's very... Yeah.

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He taught me a lot, even though I don't trust myself that much. But that give me a... Yeah, a lot of chance to know that, oh, I can do this and that. And just to try and experience.

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So it's very interesting. Thank you for sharing. And next, I'm wondering if we can move on to your life abroad. So what, what, at what

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age did you leave China? Oh, I went to college when I was 18. Where did you go? I went to California, UC Irvine. And what major did you...

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and what kind of journey that you took to kind of decide on that you’re on that major? So... oh you mean the major that I did or like... my journey... Yeah, or any kind of career focus, later

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on you would like to...? Yes. So like when I applied college, the... while the major is called "art in general", and like being a roots artist.

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Yeah. Very general. It's divided into studio art and art theory, because we have another art major called art history. But I was in art in general, like major, and

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that's kind of like you have to be in the studio, it's more like people who want to be an artist. And then you have to know art theory. And it's mainly focusing on contemporary

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art. And that's also what I talked about the contemporary art in general, like those classes. And then for UC system, we have to finish all the GE classes.

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And that's cover like, courses from all different departments. And I find from humanities department, I also like the math and kind of like physics, physics related. In that department, I want to choose something that I interested the most;

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and I choose something logistic, related to philosophy. And then like, after two or three quarters, I realized that I took like, enough philosophy class that can, if I take like one or two more then make me become a

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philosophy minor; and then like, yeah, so also, like, I really like the professor in the philosophy department. Because like, their way of teaching is so different than the art school teacher, like art school teacher are very chill, and they don't, yeah, they

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never follow the syllabus or whatever. They're just like, feel like yeah, they just follow their mood; and professor philosophy, philosophy department, like all professors are very, like, professional and

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clear. And they, I don't know, it's just, like, inspire me a lot of like, how they see the world. And I think philosophy can also go back to not only art practice, but also

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how to understand art in general. So, and then, I was like, Okay, yeah, if I right now, if I don't add one or two classes, and make me a philosophy minor, that's gonna be so cool for me.

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And like, after I become a philosophy minor, then I was like, okay, because like my— in UC Irvine the art department is, doesn't have a lot of class. And it's kind of not that hard to finish the– finish the

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study, so I can add another two philosophy class to make me a double major, like in art in general, and also philosophy. So yeah, but at that time, like, my English is not that good. Although, right now, I don't want to say that my English is good enough, but

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definitely like all the readings in that departments kind of, yeah, help me and also, give me, like- even like, not only— like new perspective,

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towards the arts, but also towards life in general. And what extracurricular activities, do you engage— or clubs do you engage yourself with during your studies at UC Irvine?

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Well, I was everywhere, to be honest. I not only like being the like, Student Union kind of related club; and also, because I noticed that there's no time and I don't want to spend that much time to study business.

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And, like, oh, and in that aspect, because before I have no interest in business, and mathematics, and, and also economy, although I study in high school about it; but I was like, okay, like,

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I will be in the art world in the future, so I don't think I need that. And I remember like, when I was 20, or something, I kind of realized that, oh, probably I need to learn something about it.

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But I... Because I studied it in three years, kind of like, with an extra quarter, just want to extend my OPT. But at that time, I'm kind of wants

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to be involved more into the business world to learn without like, add another major. So this is not like a club that

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I– I go to the like venture capital to apply for like to work there. And also... Yeah, and know a lot of like, investor friends and those friends are like, totally different than my

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art circle. And they, especially at that time, the blockchain. It's the first time that everybody talks about blockchain. So, and also the AI.

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And so I kind of like learn a lot about that. And my friends in that industry kind of, because I was like doing marketing for them. So they're like, okay, probably have some other projects you

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might be interested in. So I also worked at a music festival, and also the music festival kind of link to the nightclub related events.

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And then yeah, and you know, like the California, the... Yeah, totally different than New York. And like, people over there, kind of divided into a few categories. Some people are very like business

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related, like everybody wants to start their own business, they want to do startups. And other people are like, like, very artsy people, they're like, they don't care about life; they only focus on their art.

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And also, you can see like some people, like, always in Lululemon on the beach and to exercise; and those people talk to you about Equinox and business plan, wanting to like to invest your money into their

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fund. And also, probably there's some other people like selling you weed, because you know, it's legal in California. So it's very, yeah... interesting to know all

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those people, and to be friends with all of them. Can you shared some of the most, I guess, bizarre moments that you encounter during your California Chapter of

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your life? Bizarre moment? Given you gave us a few like anecdotes about the bizarreness of California. Oh, well, I, because I am very bad at directions.

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Even now, like I am very bad at... I cannot use one year like the whole year to study how to take subway in New York. I'm always like, open my phone, like with my Google

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Maps. If my phone died, then I cannot go back home. But like when I was in California- fornia is even worse, because I have to drive to everywhere. And that's happened.

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Like if your phone died, when are you in a car that you're completely like you just like stuck in the middle of the road, and you're on the highway, you can't go anywhere. And so well, I

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just like, there was a moment I just moved to a new apartment. And in the- like the, in... it's suddenly in Orange County all the housing area are kind of separate from each other.

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Like when you go out of your building, you're like, just go on a highway, like, immediately. So there's no condo or community neighborhood. There's nothing like that.

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It's just like, yeah, like a bunch of building, a bunch of house, condos. And they'll like a forest, or like a grass, mountain— or not, not actual mountain but yeah. And then like, highway,

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you have to go on highway to go to like any other places. So you're always on your car. Yeah, when I was just moved to a new apartment. And yeah, my phone died when I was on my car.

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So it took me about two hours to go back to find my house. It's... Yeah, very embarrassing, because my friend is waiting me at my house.

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Like where we're just like leaving from the same place. And it took her about 15 minutes to go back to my place and took me two hours. He's, he's always like, very worried about me and even wants to call

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police. Like, he even tried to like take her car to go on highway to try to like meet me, like to try to, like try where my car is and try to like, give me direction to go back home.

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But yeah, after she fell it and like after two... All right, they found me. Yeah, go back home. I'm glad you made it back safe though. That did sound like a very interesting chapter.

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And I guess as a person of diaspora, like you left China and moved to California, and like, now you're in New York. How have your diasporic experiences been, like have have there'll be moments where

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you felt like this sense of belonging and where would you call home? I think... Well, for me, because, like one of the questions that people always ask me is like, oh,

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whether you want to go back to China, or do you want to stay here? Yeah. Like, even when I was in college like what, you know, when I just entered college people are asking me, "Oh are you here for study, or just like, for the college, or you

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want to say after you graduated?" And, and for me, my answer is always like, that just like always follow my heart. I don't like— when I was in college, I don't even know whether I like to stay in US.

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And after I graduated, I feel like I was feeling like, Okay, this is not enough. I want to explore more. And for me, it's like, okay, I kind of

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know what's California looks like, and I want to explore the other side of the United States. So I was like, if I'm in art world, definitely New York. So yeah, although my friends are in California, and also like my ex-boyfriends

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are there. And I was, "Okay, I'm going to New York. Bye." And I was here for my master's degree. And after I graduated from my master's degree, which is like, last year, and I was like, okay, although like, and even with the

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pandemic, all of my friends, yeah, just like almost; almost all of my friends kind of go back to their hometown, or, like, go back to their country. And for me, like, probably,

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if I can stay here, and especially I- I have a job, like, I got a job like during pandemic year, which is very, very, very rare in this industry. And even, even in that time, so I was like, probably I can stay here to kind

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of try what is like to be in this special period of time by myself, and in a foreign country. And I mean, like after 2020, I feel like okay. I think I made my choice.

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It's now, like, if I go back out, like, if I go back to China is now is a wrong choice or is a wrong decision. But it's like, I just feel like I should stay at the time. So I just did that.

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Yeah. And like when you talk about home feeling, so I want to say there's like no, like on one home. That's why I would

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regard Beijing because my family, all my family members are still there. They're always there. So I definitely going to see Beijing as my home. But also Irvine, California, because I also spend one year in LA for

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working, so like not only Irvine, but also LA. Everywhere that I stayed before could be called home, and also New York. Yes. So... Thank you

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for sharing. And next, so your current job at the Chambers Fine Art is gallery assistant. And I understand that you also worked at art fairs, nonprofit art foundations and auction houses.

00:33:34.450 - 00:33:49.470

I'm curious, what are— as we kind of roughly categorize you as "people of art" in this collection— what do you see your role in the art world would be in the long run?

00:33:49.530 - 00:33:59.780

In the long run? This is like a career related question. So for me, I can't— because before people kind of divide,

00:34:00.210 - 00:34:16.800

like there's a very clear line between, for example, primary art market, secondary art market; or you either in the non-for-profit world, which is museums; or foundation or in a for-profit or like art dealers.

00:34:17.680 - 00:34:28.360

And it's kind of like you cannot be both. But for me, I can see that right now especially after the pandemic year and everybody trying

00:34:28.360 - 00:34:46.100

to restore in all different ways. So the reason why I ran out currently working in art gallery because I want, I like dealing with artists; because I was as an artist myself, I do like art

00:34:46.150 - 00:34:58.610

practice. So I like ___. So I'm really interesting to know that what's, why the artists create this and like the background story, I want to know them as a friend.

00:34:58.810 - 00:35:16.730

And also there artworks as that like if some artwork that I've valued at very high, and I like to be the bridge, or like to be the person, the promoter to let more people know; and if somebody if you like the work, they can

00:35:16.810 - 00:35:32.830

purchase this and to- to hung in their house, I think this is something that I really like to do. But also, this is all about money. And like when you're dealing with money too much, it's kind of not that

00:35:33.740 - 00:35:52.530

like, I want to say like not that pure- purely art unrelated, you have to thinking about all the like very realistic problems. And that's why I also like to do a lot of individual curatorial art projects. So although you still need to think about

00:35:52.680 - 00:36:05.250

budgets, space, installation, and blah, blah, blah... but this is not like you have to sell the artwork, you have no pressure about it, there's like, you have a concept, you have an idea, and you can find artworks or the artists that

00:36:05.250 - 00:36:14.820

you like to put themselves out there. So it's coming in two different way, but I can see them— can come together as one in the future.

00:36:18.790 - 00:36:35.180

And can you share with us some of the experiences of your most memorable or most profound moments, encountering– encountering art, such as your most memorable artist studio visit or exhibitions that you've been?

00:36:38.710 - 00:36:52.930

For memories? Let me think about it... I think well, because I- I was always like visiting art galleries or museums

00:36:53.480 - 00:37:04.360

by myself, although I like to— like go with my friends. But it's totally a different experience. Like, when I go with my friends, it's like, my attention, where my focus is always on

00:37:04.740 - 00:37:17.220

people. That's the real people, just like people always talk. It's not like, you can just see the artwork— that’s all right. You're not connected with the artwork, it's like, you spend time with your friends, the mission is different.

00:37:17.640 - 00:37:34.700

But when you go to galleries, like by yourself, it's kind of like, oh, there's only like, you can kind of create the bond between you and artworks, and you can spend, like, whatever, like you can spend as much time as you want with the artworks,

00:37:35.600 - 00:37:48.280

you don't need to care about other people's feelings. Because you might, yeah, sometimes you spent too much like 20 minutes, like in front of one artwork and people are like waiting for you and you kind of feel guilty about it.

00:37:48.280 - 00:38:04.730

This... Yeah. And also, when you see beauty, you cannot like really connect to the artwork. So the very memorable moments is not that memorable, but does I feel very good, because like one time when I go to an art galleries,

00:38:04.950 - 00:38:17.300

one of my friends; and because before we enter the gallery, we kind of always talk and sharing our stories that talk about all different kinds of like non art-related topics.

00:38:17.770 - 00:38:36.960

And like the one we entered the gallery, so we just like go by ourselves, we kind of just go into our own world with the arts, we never talk to each other we– we kind of like talk to the gallery people or kind

00:38:36.960 - 00:38:52.050

of talk like facts about the artist that asks about artworks. And we just follow our own pace to- to like, see, and spend our time in this. I can't remember like how long we stay in that gallery but it's very nice.

00:38:52.090 - 00:39:03.080

That's just like we can feel that, oh, we finish in this gallery probably goals; but that there and we... Yeah, we went out together.

00:39:03.420 - 00:39:21.460

So this is something that I think is memorable. And I always expect this kind of period when I go to a gallery hopping. And for you— for yourself, what are some of the artists on your radar, I mean,

00:39:21.890 - 00:39:40.020

that weren't probably established yet. You mean like the upcoming artists, like not the famous? Yeah, not the super established, blue chip or artists in major shows. I think this is a very hard question to answer because we keep trying

00:39:40.920 - 00:39:52.860

to go back to the, "Oh, what's your favorite artists" question. So for me I- I'm like very open minded. I don't only for like one category or one media or

00:39:52.860 - 00:40:09.290

whatever. So but I want to like summarize what kind of art do I like. So I kind of divided into like two category. So one is like something that's

00:40:11.080 - 00:40:28.990

my taste. So now, probably because of the color palettes, because of the movements on the painting, or it's a composition, it's more about intuition, you cannot tell what's attract you. But this like kind of related to, to function, like the theory of

00:40:29.060 - 00:40:45.260

function is that, this is something that want me to stay there longer to figure out; or this is something that I like, and you cannot explain the reason of what's going on. That's the kind of artwork that I like.

00:40:45.860 - 00:41:03.250

And when I like to see like, those artists probably follow the same or similar color palette, or it's like, it's talking about the same, similar concepts that I introduced myself, like, because it's

00:41:03.300 - 00:41:19.850

something like so my life philosophy somehow. And there are other kinds of art that I really like, it's like, it's totally opposite; is kinda like the mentor that I talked to you about, it's like a new whole brand new world.

00:41:21.010 - 00:41:35.810

I never thought about this problem before in my life, or this is a, like, the artists use the medium in a brand new way that never think of. So just like always something new that grabs my attention.

00:41:35.810 - 00:41:57.510

And now it's a different kind of life— of those totally different. But I appreciate these kinds of artists and artworks in general. And I guess moving on to your life in the pandemic, I'm

00:41:58.050 - 00:42:12.680

curious, how has 2020 been for you? And being in New York, where it was very, I mean, the COVID-19 virus was very serious last year, in– in

00:42:13.460 - 00:42:29.200

the spring, like how have you handled the situation? And if you could share with us some of the experiences. Oh, wow. Like, what I was, like, in 2020, there's no way

00:42:29.200 - 00:42:43.190

to handle the situations, just let it be, you never know what's going to happen the next day. So for me, it's like, before I, as an introvert person I was like being, like, by

00:42:43.190 - 00:42:59.270

myself. So I want my personal space. And that's why I always like, wants to live by myself. I don't want any roommates. But before, because of the rent is so expensive, especially New York, and also, there are my two

00:42:59.510 - 00:43:14.880

friends nearby, we want to live together. So I was like, fine, we can like, always live together and share the rent. That's like when, like starting from 2020, like my roommates who were also one of my classmates, like in the

00:43:15.020 - 00:43:29.040

same program that was tiny, she went back to China. And like, I'm still living in that same house. And I tend to like to spend the whole year by myself, I live by myself, like, kind of for like,

00:43:29.840 - 00:43:44.360

the longest time in my lifetime. And it's strange, and it's definitely hard. When I was in there, like when I was like in, like, that's kind of like a zone,

00:43:44.400 - 00:44:00.310

like, you cannot go out of the environment to see what's going on, like in your life, or what's going on in this world. But right now, it's kind of like I look back, everything seems more easy, like than before.

00:44:01.160 - 00:44:15.950

And I always like kind of like a test for myself, I want to know if I can live by myself and this period of time, like what can I do is not like what can I achieve in this period of time.

00:44:16.170 - 00:44:31.240

It's kind of like, uh, whether I can go through this by myself. Like, I want to test my limits. I don't want to do this, like when you're by yourself like 24/7 and in the same room,

00:44:33.650 - 00:44:51.420

you you definitely started to think about the philosophical questions. And I think it's, yeah, it's a good period of time to help me to think through and to have the time to settle down and to clear my

00:44:51.420 - 00:45:05.000

mind, figure out who I am, what my strengths and strength and weakness, just all this kind of question, to know myself more. So, yeah, that's

00:45:05.050 - 00:45:22.390

probably like the inner world, what's happened for me last year. Do you see any of the habits or lifestyle we've live through this pandemic will stay for the long run, whether they will impact the art world?

00:45:24.450 - 00:45:36.080

You mean, like the habits, you mean the life, like, Yeah, like, what we are doing now... The daily habits. Yeah, daily habits, for example, communication, how people connect with one another.

00:45:36.600 - 00:45:54.050

Everything has been moving online. Are they going to replace like, in-person connections? And also like, for yourself since, as I think many of us went through that kind of existential and

00:45:54.660 - 00:46:11.890

philosophical kind of conversations during the isolation, do you see, this pandemic has changed many people's internal process, or processes? Yeah, for the last question, definitely, like all of my friends, like, all of a

00:46:11.890 - 00:46:28.920

sudden are into philosophy. Like after, like, last year, so I guess very excited for me, because, like, I have like a new friends to talk about this topics. Before like people, like think about different, like, they're interested in

00:46:28.920 - 00:46:37.880

different kinds of topics. And like, every conversation I was involved into, there's like that this is some, like, very deep conversation going on.

00:46:37.880 - 00:46:57.150

People just want to chill, but I think after the pandemic, people love to share their feelings, or their thoughts about those like, it's finished like the problem or just like human, what's the life,

00:46:57.330 - 00:47:12.540

like, why I'm here, it's just like a different kind of very basic, but important philosophical questions. So and I can feel like, although we spend most of our time right online to communicate; but when I see people offline, when I meet,

00:47:13.200 - 00:47:31.330

like, although there are some new friends, people becomes more personal, and is now like, passionate about their life, it's more about have a feeling of gratitude, like value, the people that

00:47:31.330 - 00:47:46.250

we communicate, like, so I think it's a good thing, and because before, it's like, everybody is too exhausted to socialize with others. And everybody want their personal space, and

00:47:46.350 - 00:48:02.630

everybody... But like, we need each other, so we kind of have to, like, finish our tasks and finish our job, we have to talk to each other. It's more, like mostly very superficial. But right now it's like, after one year, like without,

00:48:02.930 - 00:48:19.780

like, knowing new people, and, oh, in a sudden you know somebody, and you want to— you have more interest in this person. So, yeah, I think that is something I cannot guarantee you that will last longer time.

00:48:20.200 - 00:48:32.270

But I wish that we can be like more like this after the pandemic period. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that positive notes.

00:48:34.380 - 00:48:54.350

And I guess moving on to Asian arts in America, and I am really curious about your thoughts on the Asian art scene in New York; and if you're kind of interested to share something about California; but I know that your major career happened

00:48:54.350 - 00:49:06.640

in New York. So I'm, yeah, interested to hear your thoughts. You mean the Asian art scene? Asian American arts like, either Asian

00:49:06.860 - 00:49:24.020

from— Asian artists from Asia or Asian American artists, and their representation in– in the US, whether there's any kind of, kind of misunderstood parts, or any parts that the artist

00:49:24.020 - 00:49:41.560

got misunderstood or misrepresented by any chance? Or you think, yeah, like there's anything that can be perhaps changed? I mean, well, if we talk about the museum like their authority of what is

00:49:41.560 - 00:50:00.380

“good” art, and it's definitely have a lot of problems. It's always have problems. And, for example, like it's not only really good to art, Asian, Asian community, but talk about like whether you should take off or should

00:50:00.380 - 00:50:17.200

move the status off the like life history related sculpture, or whether you need to change the whole thing, need to change the text, change the contents of the artwork... we have to re educate the new audience.

00:50:18.010 - 00:50:38.330

Or you can add additional tags, not- not like change the, like old one, not change the original one that adds something new on top of this, to save the history, to let the people know that, like, this is something that happened before.

00:50:38.430 - 00:50:46.600

And this is real. And now we can change our attitude, change our perspective. So there are definitely different ways to solve the problem.

00:50:46.600 - 00:50:57.150

And that's why people are fighting with each other. Everybody, like, because we have different background stories. We came from our perspective.

00:50:57.330 - 00:51:11.930

So it's definitely hard to understand the other like, some– some people, that's against your opinion. And I think it's very important for us to talk less and listen more.

00:51:12.250 - 00:51:30.290

It's not like, we should not just like say, our opinions or whatever; it's more like, if you're not in this community, like if you're not the person who like actually like, like his or her family has been through this period history, you'd

00:51:30.290 - 00:51:47.850

better listen to their story before you speak about your opinion or you give a conclusion about what's going on. So it's more like, you need to, like this story, you need to know more or know enough; and there's no enough.

00:51:49.980 - 00:52:03.890

You don't have enough time to know the like the overall history, and there's always something left out and the history book is definitely not correct. You need to know as much as you

00:52:04.310 - 00:52:21.910

can, and to kind of always open minded to welcome other version, and always be open to change your perspective, know how to apologize to your privacy, like, probably like the wrong wording or

00:52:21.910 - 00:52:36.520

something. So it's normal. And I think we cannot be that mean to each other. For example, like some people, they just don't know the history. It's not like, they want to offended, they want to be offended, or they want to

00:52:37.470 - 00:52:53.890

show their disrespect to your or your community. And it's like, it's not very well and you have to shout out or to be very loud to say that, oh, this is from racism problems; this is not right.

00:52:54.530 - 00:53:07.360

And I think people need time. And if everybody gave each other, like mellow environment to learn, and it's not like adequate, you said there to listen

00:53:07.380 - 00:53:20.630

to share the story. I think it's better. That's definitely true that not every– everybody's open minded enough. So I understand that sometimes you have to

00:53:20.630 - 00:53:39.850

be stronger, like to be more, like louder, and to make your voice play with by other communities and other group of people. Yeah, that's totally true. And following your point regarding social justice and

00:53:39.960 - 00:53:56.530

in terms of socially engaged art and political art, which is very, actually going very big in trend right now; I'm curious to hear your thoughts, whether this kind of category of art will be here for the

00:53:56.610 - 00:54:14.550

long run. I mean, there's always political related social, like movement-related art in the, in the art history and or in the museum. So I mean, yes, for your question, especially like,

00:54:15.470 - 00:54:30.640

no matter you look back to the history or look further in our future, it's there's definitely a lot of people talk about everything happened around us. It's actually like, like if, it's like if you're live in this world, no

00:54:30.640 - 00:54:49.260

matter where you're at, you definitely belong to some country, belong to some culture, communities, and- and you only have something to say that's like you want more people to know. You want to promote your opinion, or your perspective

00:54:50.120 - 00:55:01.750

towards one specific issue. So it's not about this time, it's very trendy. It's like, it's always been very trendy, and everybody talks about it.

00:55:01.750 - 00:55:17.570

And right now, it's just like, Oh, it's like, for me, it's like, I passed my formative age, kind of... So now it's like, I'm grown enough, like I can understand what's going on right now.

00:55:17.990 - 00:55:34.120

Because before is not like, there's nothing happens in the art world. It's like, before, I don't know enough to understand that this is something people care about at the moment. Yeah, that's totally true.

00:55:35.300 - 00:55:51.670

And since we're on this topic, and as we are all reading the news, that there has been a number of, actually a very kind of devastating number, and cases of the anti-Asian hate crimes due to the

00:55:51.730 - 00:56:08.070

pandemic. What are, what are some of the kind of experiences for yourself, in case you have experienced or witnessed any of those? And, and what would you like to say, in case you encounter such

00:56:08.200 - 00:56:25.060

scenarios? I mean like for me, personally, I'm, well, like New York is definitely not a very safe city, especially comparing to Irvine. Before when I was in Irvine, like not very Asian

00:56:25.120 - 00:56:37.940

family, but also, you know, like, you cannot see White people in your community at all. It's like, oh, Latino friends and Asian friends. And I never think about the

00:56:38.030 - 00:56:51.800

problem when I was in California like this. That's, but when I came to New York, and you can see, that's, all people live in this specific neighborhood, they never lived in neighborhoods, probably in their lifetime.

00:56:52.510 - 00:57:07.660

And to, I have to say that, like this year, like this two year in New York, definitely teach me a lot and made me want to know more about the, like racial related or like this kind

00:57:07.660 - 00:57:22.600

of topics. And speaking of Asian hate, I have to say, not only me, but also my friends, we kind of discuss about this topic before. It's like, it's our first time to kind of

00:57:22.620 - 00:57:40.140

truly understand the Black Lives Matter movement, and also the past, like, feminism movements, stuff before we definitely hear and as art students, art professionals, we always talk about it. And we discuss about it, we cannot, we,

00:57:41.700 - 00:57:53.030

we feel like we know what it's like. But because it's over. For example, like we're not at the peak of the feminism movement or, we're like, although I was in New York, the

00:57:53.030 - 00:58:08.060

Black Lives Matter is, for us, it's like, okay, it's better be at home, especially in the during the pandemic. And for the Asian hate crimes, it's more like, okay, you kind of know that what's feel like for those, like, Black

00:58:08.700 - 00:58:24.760

community. If I think like in this, like, in this way, to do things, they cure more people to notice that you have to, like stand out to speak and to, to learn, actually.

00:58:28.020 - 00:58:39.280

It's the time for us. It's like, Oh, we know what's happened in the news in the past three months, or in the past one year, but we don't know, like, for example, what happened in the

00:58:39.280 - 00:58:53.140

last 20 or 30 years? And what– what caused the problem. Because nothing is like, oh, in a sudden happened without any reason, everything happens related to the private space are

00:58:53.200 - 00:59:05.430

called events, or unrelated to some like, just like anything happened before. There's a cause. So I think it's not only for this

00:59:05.790 - 00:59:22.830

specific topic, but as for all other issues, we definitely need to read and learn and know what exactly caused a problem and then like when we advocate our self, so we can speak out

00:59:23.270 - 00:59:37.210

like speak the right thing. And what not the right thing to say is more like to have our own opinion or perspective and not like just follow those slogans, whatever showing like on social media, we

00:59:37.210 - 00:59:53.670

just follow and repost. It is very irresponsible. Yeah, what are some of the thoughts that, that, in case you would encounter such a scenario, or such a direct

00:59:54.100 - 01:00:12.970

attack or microaggression, in case, like what would you like to say to people with Asian hate? Sorry, what's the question? What would you like to say to people with Asian hate, that— in case you encounter such scenarios?

01:00:15.010 - 01:00:22.500

Well, that's- that's very tough questions. So I definitely have a lot to say. But it depends. And it's very case by

01:00:22.620 - 01:00:39.150

case. It's more like if, like, for everybody, it's not like, you have to sacrifice yourself after the Asian. So the first thing is, we have to be safe, you have to make sure that you are not in the like, you're not gonna put yourself in a

01:00:39.660 - 01:00:51.690

very dangerous situation. And that means that we need to prepare, like, it's not the good things to, you have to prepare to encounter people like this.

01:00:51.690 - 01:01:09.070

It's very sad about it. But it's always good to be conscious about like, your safety. And, like, I mean, it's like, you cannot expect something happening in front of you.

01:01:09.450 - 01:01:25.050

But if that's happened, it's go back to what I said before, like, if you know enough, and you're not gonna make the other people even more angry. And you can have a— like a better conversation.

01:01:26.340 - 01:01:42.880

But if you feel like you're in dangerous situation, you can just like, make sure yourself, and like safe first, and then to the other things. Yeah, thank you for sharing.

01:01:43.290 - 01:01:59.470

I guess as we are approaching the end of the interview, and as we are trying to be mindful of your time, what would you like to leave for, say, a time capsule that will be for a

01:01:59.470 - 01:02:13.140

post apocalyptic world for the future? Time capsule? Well, this is very interesting, because well, I want to describe

01:02:13.190 - 01:02:26.830

my day, because right now is May 19, 2020. And most of the people New York, get vaccinated. And I like I was in New York for like, the whole

01:02:27.200 - 01:02:41.340

time, during the pandemic, it's only this month, like, like, when we into April and May, feels like we are kind of step out of the isolation period.

01:02:42.060 - 01:02:57.640

And you can tell that, oh, the tree is like is greener, for like everybody's going street. And even though you can still see that, I'm with my mask, it's become a habit right now.

01:02:58.430 - 01:03:15.180

And it's very weird and excited at the same time to see that your New York life kind of back to normal, like back to the pre-pandemic work life. But for everybody were kinda want to

01:03:15.480 - 01:03:27.170

compare the differences. What's changed and what stayed the same? And this was something very interesting to think about now, like, right, not only right now at the moment,

01:03:27.170 - 01:03:44.580

because it's like, oh, in a sudden, I have to go to the gallery to work, from Monday to Friday; because before I always work from home, it's, like brand new for me. Like, even like, if we're in the future, to look back in

01:03:44.670 - 01:04:01.200

2020, and in 2021, we can also like to see the differences in the larger like, or, you know, like more posts on perspective. So I think, yeah, it's always interesting to look back to compare.

01:04:04.880 - 01:04:18.550

Yeah, thank you so much. And I've really enjoyed this hour with you to, which share- you share generously with us your childhood memories, your path of growth as a

01:04:18.550 - 01:04:29.470

person of art as in this collection. And I just want to say thank you so much for your time. And yeah, if there's anything else you would like to add

01:04:29.620 - 01:04:36.560

before we- we end? Oh, no. Good for me. Thank you.