00:00:05.739 - 00:00:37.459

Oral history interview of Elora Shahabuddin at her office in Houston, Texas on March 14th, 2011 interview conducted by Ken Harrington for the Houston asian-american archives at Rice University's Woodson Research Center. Uh So tell me about yourself. Oh goodness, where do I begin? OK. Um It's OK

00:00:37.470 - 00:00:55.790

to repeat stuff that's um that I put in there. Um I am from Bangladesh and I say that because both, both sides of my family are from Bangladesh, but I was born in Pakistan. Um And then because my father was in the Bangladesh Foreign Service, I

00:00:55.799 - 00:01:09.029

grew up mostly in Europe and the Middle East. But because he was in the foreign service, he was a diplomat for Bangladesh. I had a very clear sense of, you know, here we are wherever we are representing Bangladesh. So even though growing up, I only spent

00:01:09.040 - 00:01:25.349

four years there, um it was very clear to me that I'm from Bangladesh and not from anywhere else. Um What else? Uh I came to the US for college and stayed on and on and on. Um When I came, it wasn't clear how long I'd stay.

00:01:25.360 - 00:01:43.550

But um after living in all these places, I applied to American Colleges and came and then went to grad school here and then met my husband and we were both going to be academics. So this seemed to be the right place. So here we are. Um

00:01:44.889 - 00:02:05.419

I have a US passport now because he's American born. Um But I really see myself as sort of belonging to both Bangladesh and here and nowhere in many ways. So, so my next question was going to be, what do you consider back home? So you would

00:02:05.430 - 00:02:22.080

say you would say Bangladesh because my parents are back there. Now. Also, it's, I guess even when I was here and they were somewhere else, I would have said both where they are. So I can, when I came to the US, they were in Kuwait and

00:02:22.089 - 00:02:36.130

then they were in Paris. So back home back then, I guess then I would have to specify whether I mean back home is where my parents are or back home is in Bangladesh, depending on the context. Now they are in Bangladesh. So that's just one place.

00:02:36.139 - 00:03:00.220

Yeah. Uh So your parents are originally from Bangladesh, both of them? Yeah. Um What did your mother do? She um the rules of the foreign service were that when you're stationed abroad, the spouse who is not the diplomat, which traditionally historically has been the woman, the,

00:03:00.229 - 00:03:13.300

so the man is the diplomat and the woman is and doesn't get to work. She had, um, no permission to work in the countries we were stationed in. So she would be in charge of, you know, the entertaining. She'd be part of the diplomatic corps, wives

00:03:13.309 - 00:03:29.410

and do volunteer work, organize international festivals, things like that when we were overseas. And then, um, the few times the four years that I did live back home, uh, growing up, she taught at a school for disadvantaged Children. But, uh, but most of my life growing

00:03:29.419 - 00:03:52.100

up, she wasn't working a job job. Uh Why did your dad decide to go into the foreign service? He started out to be a college professor in history. And um and I think at the time it was very prestigious to take to go into the civil

00:03:52.110 - 00:04:08.009

service. So this is 19 sixties, Pakistan, Bangladesh was still part of Pakistan at the time. And so I think, you know, someone encouraged him to take the test, he took the test, he did well, he placed into the foreign service. So he thought, OK, they had

00:04:08.020 - 00:04:26.069

never gone overseas. Um Growing up, my mother's family traveled around a lot within Bangladesh. Um My dad grew up in the village, he's from then he moved to the big town over, they came from a very good family. That's an expression you have back home, you

00:04:26.079 - 00:04:39.009

know, good lineage. But you know, they'd lost their wealth over the years because many, many kids, the property keeps getting split up. So uh by the time my father and his brother were born, there wasn't much property left, but, you know, everyone had been very well

00:04:39.019 - 00:04:53.209

educated. Um so, so he went to the local village school, then he moved to the next town over for high school. Then he moved to the next city over for college and then to the capital city in Dhaka for university. And then he was teaching for

00:04:53.220 - 00:05:07.329

a while, um um history, social studies, whatever. And then someone said, you know, you should really take the civil service exam. He did, he placed into the foreign service. And I, I imagine the lure of, you know, getting to see the world was probably a very

00:05:07.339 - 00:05:30.500

attractive one. And um, so that's what he ended up choosing to do. Ok, I'm gonna pause it for him. So your, uh your preinterview forum said that you lived in India during the Indo Pakistani War of 1971. I mean, you were quite young. Yeah, it was

00:05:30.510 - 00:05:44.980

three years old. But do you know if the situation was at all difficult for your parents? Um It was because my father and we call it, of course the Bangladesh Independence War, we don't call it the Indo Pakistan War even though, you know, India came in

00:05:44.989 - 00:06:00.799

at the end and, and won the war for as many would say. Um The, my father was stationed at the time in the Pakistan High Commission. So he was because right there was one country, East Pakistan, West Pakistan. So he's in the Pakistan Foreign Service. There

00:06:00.809 - 00:06:17.279

was no Bangladesh at the time and um and he ended up being the first East Pakistani diplomat to defect. Um and he, so the very first Bangladesh mission outside, you know, overseas was actually our house. The first time the flag was unfurled, et cetera. So they

00:06:17.290 - 00:06:31.549

played a very important role and then, you know, they would go both of them, you know, take part in protests once they left and got an asylum from the Indian government and everything was safe. Um They, you know, they did protest outside the Pakistan embassy. Well,

00:06:31.559 - 00:06:50.440

of the Pakistan High Commission, the British and the Americans who are supporting the the Pakistanis at the time, Nixon, for example, was very supportive of um of Pakistan because he, he was, he wanted um he was trying to make inroads into China at the time. So

00:06:50.450 - 00:07:06.619

he needed to stay friends with Pakistan for various complicated strategic reasons. So my parents were very involved. You know, Delhi was sort of the center of where things were happening. Obviously, the violence was happening in Bangladesh. But um Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India at

00:07:06.630 - 00:07:21.850

the time, was very involved and invested in uh the outcome of the war. So they were very, very heavily involved in what was happening. The danger was very much at the beginning. So independence was declared March 26th. Our 40th anniversary is coming up, um which is

00:07:21.859 - 00:07:37.375

also my birthday. So I always, I remember my college, the essay sort of began, you know, very dramatically. I've always felt my life is inextricably linked with the fate of my country or something. Um because it's the same birthday. So my third birthday party was canceled

00:07:37.385 - 00:07:54.230

because suddenly, you know, independence was declared and we were in India. Um So they, um and then even before a provisional government had been formed in what was to become Bangladesh, my father and a colleague declared that they were leaving, you know, they sort of snuck

00:07:54.239 - 00:08:11.649

away from their Pakistani um from the High Commission and, and declared, and, you know, did a big press release and meet a press uh press conference saying that, you know, they're sort of leaving the Pakistan High Commission and setting up their own independent um Bangladesh mission

00:08:11.660 - 00:08:26.290

in, in New Delhi. Um So I think those, those moments and my father recently wrote a, wrote his memoirs. It was interesting to see, you know, growing up, we'd heard these stories but when he described, you know, you know, people showed up at the house that

00:08:26.299 - 00:08:42.034

evening to make sure they weren't planning anything because people had gotten suspicious. I realized how scary it must have been. It was, I was three and my sister was 1.5. So, you know, for young parents with two young kids to sort of go into the unknown

00:08:42.044 - 00:08:57.265

out there. Without knowing whether Bangladesh would ever actually come into being right. They were risking everything. So it's, yeah, you know, I think they were very scared and apprehensive but because of the violence that was happening in Bangladesh in East Pakistan at the time they felt

00:08:57.275 - 00:09:14.650

they couldn't keep working for the Pakistani government. So, yeah, I don't remember anything myself having read the memoir and heard, you know, some uh clips of the story growing up, but I know that they were very sort of in touch with everything that's, that's exciting. Um

00:09:14.659 - 00:09:36.299

So then next, they moved to France. Yes. Um So the, the war ended December 71 Bangladesh, officially independent and then 70 April 72 we moved to France. Um I think my father as part of his foreign service training had had to learn some French sitting in

00:09:36.309 - 00:09:53.770

Pakistan, but obviously none of us had any. Um But we were put in when I was four. And my sister was 2, 2.5. We were put in a local French school. And so we learned French. Um I didn't learn English until much later. So we were

00:09:53.780 - 00:10:08.299

there for three years, went to the local school. And uh and I think for my parents, it must have been as the first, I mean, India is still familiar because everyone grows up even then watching Hindi films and also they had doing in Bangladesh as mandatory

00:10:08.309 - 00:10:21.190

for a while when um when it was east and West Pakistan. So the language was very easy for them but to come to Europe for the first time, I keep thinking my mom, you know, with these two little girls coming here, you know, it must have

00:10:21.200 - 00:10:36.039

been so dramatic and then, you know, there are pictures of her switching to western clothing even to do that for the first time in your twenties. Um, I don't know. I mean, uh but, you know, I think they, they really had a great time. Um And

00:10:36.049 - 00:10:50.049

uh we were there from when I was 4 to 7 and then from there to Beirut for a year. Um Most of, most of these postings are supposed to be for three years, but we got to Beirut and then three days later, the civil war broke

00:10:50.059 - 00:11:07.630

out the civil war that would last 15 years. Um So we went to school for a few months, continued in French and a French school because Lebanon is trilingual French English and Arabic. And then for the summer, my mother took us to Bangladesh. Um And then

00:11:07.640 - 00:11:20.000

we came back and we were going to start English. Finally, I was eight years old. I was going to learn English and then the war was getting so bad that we basically didn't go to school. So my parents taught us at home for, you know, I

00:11:20.010 - 00:11:37.429

guess a school year and then we, my father closed down the Embassy in Lebanon and we left after just a year and a bit in Lebanon. So did much of this sort of uh drama. Were you really conscious of that or was it just sort of

00:11:37.440 - 00:11:54.030

part of the backdrop of your childhood? I was conscious of it and caught up, I think more in the excitement than the worrying. I mean, I remember when we were in Lebanon, we would make day trips to Syria. So I remember once we went to Syria

00:11:54.039 - 00:12:11.770

and we had a, a maid at home that we brought back from my mother's village in Bangladesh. And when we were coming back at the end of the day, from wherever we went in Syria, they wouldn't let us cross the border. They said, no, you can't

00:12:11.780 - 00:12:23.659

cross the border. You have to spend the night here. And so we had to, we slept in the car that night and then the next morning they said, ok, you can go home. Now, we went home and the woman was, you know, she was white as

00:12:23.669 - 00:12:33.090

a ghost because there was no, there were no cell phones then, right? We had no way of, I think phone lines must have been down or maybe if we, I, you know, I don't know the details. Do we try to call her? But I knew that

00:12:33.099 - 00:12:47.119

she had no idea what had happened to us, right? So all night, she was alone by herself and I remember we could see the shooting in the, in the horizon. Um, but she, um, but, you know, so we showed up and she was totally scared and

00:12:47.130 - 00:13:02.440

terrified. And it turned out, I learned many years later when my parents were telling the story that that was the night the Syrians were moving into Lebanon. And then they stayed for, you know, 10, 15 years, 15, 20 years, no more than that. They only left

00:13:02.450 - 00:13:16.010

a few years ago. Um, so that's why for our safety they have kept us at the border. But for me it was like, oh, we're sleeping in the car tonight and I hope, you know, the, the woman at home is ok. But for my parents, you

00:13:16.020 - 00:13:29.849

know, it must have been much more terrifying. Whereas, you know, we sort of you upset or excited about sitting and sleeping in the car. I have no idea. But so, yeah, so it, it, stuff like that happened but I don't think I'm sure, you know, we

00:13:29.859 - 00:13:50.270

didn't realize the potential for danger that really was there. You know, I was like, oh, ok, this is different and we just are better maybe that we didn't know. Um, how did the, how did your, uh, frequent moving affect your childhood? Like, did you, did you

00:13:50.280 - 00:14:07.229

enjoy the changes or did you sort of wish you could stay in one place a bit longer? Um, a bit of both. You know, I think I got used to the idea that we'd move very often, I think as I got older, especially, um, well, in

00:14:07.239 - 00:14:20.909

Beirut because we didn't go to school. We ended up not having any real friends. It was just my sister and me and we'd sit there, you know, imagining stories and writing stories, you know, uh and reading, doing a lot of reading. Um But then we went

00:14:20.919 - 00:14:34.609

to Bangladesh for three years and there we started to make real friends and cousins, et cetera. So leaving, there was very hard. And then the next one was England for three years. So now we're um 11 and no, no, England. I, when I left it was

00:14:34.619 - 00:14:47.070

11 to 14. So that was even harder to leave. And then we went back to Bangladesh and that was just for one year and that was really hard, you know, I mean, you know, at age 14, 15, you make some really close friends. And also I

00:14:47.080 - 00:15:00.804

felt, you know, we're supposed to be here three years, these one year moves were unexpected. So you're just getting comfortable, you're home, you're getting to know everything and then we're moved again. So I think as I got older it got harder. So looking back now, I

00:15:00.815 - 00:15:15.484

have no childhood friends, you know, I have, you know, I mean, when I got to college, my roommate was from Boston and she, and there are other friends that, you know, I got to meet through her who'd been, you know, they've been together since kindergarten and

00:15:15.494 - 00:15:28.614

I couldn't even conceive of that. So, maybe they paired us together for that reason. Um, and we're still good friends now. So, you know, that I had, I couldn't claim anything like that. You know, I'm glad I got to see all these places and, you know,

00:15:28.825 - 00:15:44.390

um, I hope it means I can meet people more easily or something, you know. So, I think something else they're tradeoffs. I guess so. Yeah, exactly. I can't say, oh, I've known her for, you know, 43 years or something. But, uh, there are other things that

00:15:44.400 - 00:16:03.200

I'm glad I got to see all these places. Try all these, you know, and, and really live in places, not just visit. So I think, you know. Yeah, trade offs. Exactly. Some good, some bad when I was reading your, your form. I was so jealous. Especially

00:16:03.210 - 00:16:21.020

now. Like, you're telling about, like, all the excitement. Like, I mean, wars, my parents have gotten a lot of flack from my friends for, you know, being in war zones, time and time again. So, so you haven't kept in touch with any of the friends you

00:16:21.030 - 00:16:41.400

made in your, like, two or three years students? Um, I have thanks to Facebook now, found friends. I think the old friends from Bangladesh whose parents also happened to be in the foreign service who we met along the way. Somehow we didn't always have other kids

00:16:41.409 - 00:16:57.580

our age in the embassy didn't always happen. But a few and because my parents kept in touch with their parents, I've found them again also on Facebook, um, recently. But, um, I think the oldest friend from a school is from England. So from, I was 11

00:16:57.590 - 00:17:15.068

to 14. So I found them again on Facebook. The ones who are academics, you know, I think they're easier to find a, I can leave an electronic trail. So, yeah, from that age, um Beirut, you know, I didn't go to school really. So no friends from

00:17:15.078 - 00:17:31.380

there in Paris. I was too young to remember people's last names. 4 to 7. So yeah, no one from that far back. So would you say that the basically sort of the growth in social networking technologies have made a big difference to the way you definitely

00:17:31.390 - 00:17:45.589

my, my sister who's a grad student at Harvard kept traveling to different places and she, and I'd say, well, I want to see the pictures and she'd say it's all on Facebook and I say I'm not gonna join the Facebook because finally I did. And then

00:17:45.599 - 00:17:56.680

it was amazing, you know, when I first joined, I just found all these people. And also because there were many cousins who are scattered all over the world, it's been good just for the family also for the cousins to stay connected. And then as I said,

00:17:56.689 - 00:18:11.010

I found all these old old friends, Bangladeshi and non Bangladeshi in different places. Um So, yeah, you know, if we'd had email back then it would have been easier to keep in touch with people. Right. So, especially when you leave a war zone, there's no point

00:18:11.020 - 00:18:34.660

sending letters back. And, um, yeah, had this stuff existed then? II, I think I would have been in touch with more people, you know, continued to stay in touch. Yeah. So, um, could you talk a little about your, your first job at a newspaper in Kuwait?

00:18:35.420 - 00:18:51.150

Um My parents moved to Kuwait this so that we'd been in Poland and even in Poland, I've gone to boarding school in England because there were no English schools in Warsaw. This is Communist Warsaw. The only English school was the eighth grade. Uh It was the

00:18:51.160 - 00:19:08.000

American school which stopped at the eighth grade. So I was beyond that. I went to boarding school for two years and then came back, spent a year in Poland, applied to American Colleges because English universities don't give financial aid to foreign students. I aren't undergrads. So

00:19:08.010 - 00:19:20.989

I said I have to try America. So I took a year off, uh lived in Poland did various things and applied to American Colleges. And then the summer before I was going to go off to college, they moved to Kuwait. So I moved to Kuwait with

00:19:21.000 - 00:19:36.040

them and then I flew from Kuwait to Boston and then, you know, I, I got to college and realized everyone's supposed to have this summer job but I needed to go back and see my parents. So I'd heard of people who done um other Bangladeshi, another

00:19:36.050 - 00:19:52.609

Bangladeshi woman living in Kuwait who went to college in the US, came back and did this summer job at the Kuwait at the Arab Times. And the way it works basically is that most people go on vacation in the summer because it's really hot in Kuwait.

00:19:52.619 - 00:20:08.959

So they have these openings of the newspaper. It's slow, you know, slower than usual because so many people are away. Um And so they needed a summer substitute for the features editor. So I went in, it wasn't a great newspaper in the sense that, you know,

00:20:08.969 - 00:20:28.319

they just took, there was some local reporting and it's a tiny place, but a lot of it was just taking wire stories and sent and fixing them for local consumption. So we'd have to do things like this is 88. So just the end of the Iraq,

00:20:28.329 - 00:20:45.530

Iran war. Um So Kuwait had sided with Iraq against Iran. Um And so things like, you know, if a wire story came in from A P or Reuters saying the Persian Gulf, we would have to do things like cross it out and make it the Arabian

00:20:45.540 - 00:21:00.020

Gulf, right? They wouldn't allow it to be called the Persian Gulf in the local newspaper. Um And then I would sort of cover the local social beat, you know, big events, sometimes events that my parents were going to anywhere, like, you know, the Indian festival or

00:21:00.030 - 00:21:16.500

something. Um, I think I brought in movie reviews but it was just having different features. I don't, you know. Um, so I, I learned about Galley and newspapers and the hours were different and I think what I remember most is it was a Friday holiday scheduled.

00:21:16.510 - 00:21:34.150

So the weekly holiday was Friday. But because we're a newspaper, our holiday used to be Thursday because there was no need to produce a newspaper on Friday. So, so, so I was totally, completely off whack from all my friends in the US, right? So my weekly

00:21:34.160 - 00:21:48.079

holiday was Thursday. Uh not even Friday and then they were on, you know, doing the weekend on Saturday, Sunday. So that was weird. But it was nice, you know, I never had a job before. They paid me terribly because I knew, you know, I, I'm living

00:21:48.089 - 00:22:05.040

at home or whatever. Um, but I remember, I think the second summer trying to, having such a hard time going to talk to the editor about, you should really pay me more increase at some tiny amount. But, um, you know, that was the sort of stuff.

00:22:05.050 - 00:22:20.400

But I met, you know, some good uh people, the other stuff. A lot of uh South Asians, you know, like the sports editor was from Pakistan, the woman I was replacing for the summer was I think Indian or Pakistani. So, you know, it was it was

00:22:20.410 - 00:22:40.930

just fun. Um, it was a, is she from a Bosnian woman maybe. Um, so as the youngest person there, um, it was a fun experience. I'm glad I, I did it. Were, there, were there many other women at the newspaper? There were women. Um, the, I

00:22:40.939 - 00:23:02.209

was replacing a woman for the summer. Um, there are a few other, um, editors of different sections who are, who are women. Yeah. I don't think I noticed anything unusual. Um, and I think Kuwait is generally much more open or was at the time. I don't

00:23:02.219 - 00:23:22.199

know now. Um, and certainly places like Saudi Arabia. So, um, the editor-in-chief was a man. The newspapers. No, the top news editor was a man. The editor in chief was what we all referred to as the sort of the spoiled son of a very wealthy industrialist

00:23:22.209 - 00:23:36.959

who, you know, we joke about, we don't even know if he could read and write, you know. But, um, but, you know, he had cars and women and all that stuff that seemed to be his main preoccupation, but he was officially the editor-in-chief for some reason.

00:23:37.339 - 00:23:52.280

Um So, yeah, there were no inappropriate gender dynamics in the workplace. It was all very nice and proper and, you know, I enjoyed it. It was fun. I felt very grown up. I remember going to work in the middle of the afternoon. So I'd work, I

00:23:52.290 - 00:24:05.280

think from four to, from 2 to 8 or something. It was like, kind of bizarre. Not only the weekly holiday, not only was the weekly holiday and the, in the sort of Thursday, um, but also the hours were different because we were trying to get the

00:24:05.290 - 00:24:21.739

newspaper ready to be, you know, printed that evening. So you don't go to work in the morning, you sort of, um, late morning or mid afternoon? I don't remember. No, it was just sort of out of whack with everything else. Um So did that, uh, did

00:24:21.750 - 00:24:45.189

that job influence your ultimate career choices at all or is it just like sort of a summer job? It was a summer job. But I guess you being around politics and news and writing. So I think I always enjoyed that. I used to write for, um,

00:24:45.449 - 00:25:02.000

or send stories to the sort of young people's page in the Bangladeshi newspaper, my sister and I did that. So even when, because even when we were living overseas every week in the diplomatic pouch, we get the Bangladeshi newspapers and they used to have once a

00:25:02.010 - 00:25:16.880

week, sort of one page in the newspaper that was for, I think it was called the Bangladesh Observer. So the page was young observer. So they would publish the fiction and nonfiction by young people. So my sister and I routinely sent stuff there. I remember sending

00:25:16.890 - 00:25:33.689

something, you know about my tour of Auschwitz, for example. And then, um, but also I was a teenager and then, but also short stories with, you know, so I always enjoyed writing. So I think it was more that I chose a summer job in a newspaper

00:25:33.699 - 00:25:53.939

because I was already interested and that stuff and if anything, it just reinforced my interest rather than suddenly showing me I want. Oh, this is what I wanna do. Yeah. There, there probably other things I could have chosen in Kuwait, like oil and gas. No. Yes.

00:25:55.670 - 00:26:13.800

Mhm. So, so you were saying that you chose to come to the United States at least in part because of the financial need. Um Were there any other reasons that you chose it over another country? Um No, because, you know, once I learned English when I

00:26:13.810 - 00:26:28.130

was eight, it had always been English schools from then on. So um to Beirut the, you know, we went to school for a few days a month or something and then my parents taught us English at home and then we went to Bangladesh and they put

00:26:28.140 - 00:26:44.130

us in a local, not a public English school. But um you know of uh an English me if schools in Bangladesh sort of divided English medium and Bengali medium, which means the language of instruction is primarily English or primary Bengali. So because you know, they knew

00:26:44.140 - 00:26:58.099

we would be going overseas again soon, they chose the English um schools. So when it was time to choose college, it was clearly going to be England or America, you know, Australia was totally unknown and far away. I mean, why would I do that? So England

00:26:58.109 - 00:27:18.599

turned out to be not feasible financially because they don't have scholarships for foreign undergrads. So then, um, chose America. I'd never been here as a total. Where is this? Um, but, uh, you know, I think everyone feels familiar with America culturally. You know, you get to

00:27:18.609 - 00:27:33.719

see enough of it through movies, et cetera, et cetera. Um, sort of like you were saying with the, with the Bollywood. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um Yeah, exactly. So, I think the way my parents felt comfortable in India because they could speak the language. It's, um, you

00:27:33.729 - 00:27:51.160

know, similar clothes, similar food. Um I think if you grow up watching American films or, you know, TV, shows et cetera, it doesn't feel quite as alien. Um But I remember I got in, you know, I found out in April that I had gone into all

00:27:51.170 - 00:28:09.239

these colleges and I had no choice, you know, because I said if you got into Harvard, of course you have to go to Harvard. But there are other places I thought I should go there just to be contrarian. Um I got into Yale. That's the other

00:28:09.250 - 00:28:28.479

one. I didn't get into Princeton. I didn't get into Williams. There's something else, there were three. And uh anyway, so my parents said, uh they were very happy. I remember it because um the, the, the letter came to my dad's office in Warsaw. So he, you

00:28:28.489 - 00:28:40.540

know, fedex or whatever it was, I didn't even know back then those things. Um, and he called, he said it's here, it's here. He's like you have to come. So, you know, uh we, I rushed to the office and he, he said, I jumped out of

00:28:40.550 - 00:28:54.349

my seat and they're very happy. He said, if only your grandfather right here because his father died before my parents even got married. And he was, you know, very well educated, he was the headmaster of the local high school. Um So for him, you know, this

00:28:54.359 - 00:29:07.869

is sort of where, you know, this is, you, you've reached the pinnacle of everything we could have. So they were very happy. So, you know, I felt I have no real grounds for say, oh, I'd rather go to Yale than Harvard because Harvard was just better

00:29:07.880 - 00:29:28.040

known back, back home for whatever reason. So, um yeah, so it was, I had so to answer your question, it was between England and the States. And then in the States, you know, I went to where I was told to go basically. Um So when you

00:29:28.050 - 00:29:45.489

came uh was the United States different from what uh the transmitted culture had suggested? Um Oh, sorry, what I, what I meant to tell you also before it. So we, we found out in, I don't know, March or something. And then I, my aunt who lived

00:29:45.500 - 00:30:00.250

in Geneva invited me to Geneva for two months because I wasn't doing anything in Poland. And once the applications were gone and the results were back in, I was just hanging out with my family. Um And there I met many people who had been students in

00:30:00.260 - 00:30:16.449

the US, you know, other Bangladeshi Children because my aunt's husband was in the Ilo International Labor Organization. So they knew a lot of other Bangladeshis in the UN circles. And many of those older Children had been to the US and back. So I remember then someone

00:30:16.459 - 00:30:34.790

saying to me, oh, you're going to Harvard, that's great. But don't judge America by Harvard. So that stuck with me. And then I also remember a reaction from someone in Poland in Warsaw, my mom or dad saying, oh, she just got into Harvard and this woman

00:30:34.800 - 00:30:52.829

saying I forget where she was from saying, oh, you have to be careful, you don't get brainwashed, you know, because, you know, Harvard has been involved in many sort of uh conservative movements in say Latin America, et cetera. So, so I came to Harvard armed with

00:30:52.839 - 00:31:09.189

that these two warnings in, in a sense, um I think it's good that I came to Boston because it's more European looking in some ways than I think if I had landed in Texas or even California would have been more of a shock. But Boston was

00:31:09.199 - 00:31:22.920

easier to deal with and then other people who had been, had also warned me that, you know, you should eat the pastries while you're here in Geneva or Warsaw. Because American pastries, you know, don't cut it, they use different butter or something. I mean, these are

00:31:22.930 - 00:31:40.530

the kinds of things that come with in addition to everything I've seen, you know, I'd seen love story, for example, we just had a hard, oh, was your college experience? Exactly like me? Um, so I don't think it was that much of a shock. And I've

00:31:40.540 - 00:31:55.089

been away from home to be in boarding school though. Of course, that's much more restricted. So, um, no, II, I enjoyed it. It was, you know, even the too much freedom, you know, sort of freshman scrapes and things like that. It was, it was fine, I

00:31:55.099 - 00:32:07.750

think. Uh, and my main regret about college looking back now is God my God. I was at Harvard and I didn't take advantage of everything that I could have there. But, you know, when you're 18, 19 or whatever you, you can only do and at any

00:32:07.760 - 00:32:22.510

point in our lives you can only do so much. Right. You can't do everything that's possible to do in any, um, location. So, no, I mean, it was, it was great. I, I made friends. I tell you my roommate was from Boston. She, her high school

00:32:22.520 - 00:32:37.260

was the oldest high school in the country. Um, and we had, and through her, I met her friend that she's been, she'd been friends with since kindergarten, you know, and that was an alien concept. So it was, um and then, and then I also got to

00:32:37.270 - 00:32:48.469

be good friends with people from South Asia or from, you know, other parts of the world. So it was uh it was a good experience. I think it would have been harder, as I said to be in a different town than some place like uh you

00:32:48.479 - 00:33:06.060

know, New England. Um and also a less international place would have been also very hard for me. So it, it, it was a good place for me to be, I think, made the transition easier. Was it difficult being away from your family for the first time?

00:33:06.599 - 00:33:19.660

It was because they were so far away because even when I was in boarding school in England, they were in Poland and I'd go home every three months. We had terms. So I'd go home sort of in December. I'd go home in April and then go

00:33:19.670 - 00:33:38.000

home in the summer. Whereas now they were in Kuwait and I was gonna go home once a year. So at Christmas I'd go up to my aunt, my mother's sister who lived in Canada, which is even more snow than Boston saying something. So that was my,

00:33:38.010 - 00:33:56.569

but I've been in Poland. So uh not, not too familiar with snow but yeah, that's how I spent my four, you know, three Christmases, four Christmases um by going to Canada. Um, and, and also, you know, Harvard, um like Princeton turned out later on has uh

00:33:57.099 - 00:34:14.939

final exams after Christmas. So my abiding memory of Christmas was lugging all my books, her final papers and to study for exams up to Canada and then back and, you know, get some work done, but not that much. But it was a ritual that began that,

00:34:14.949 - 00:34:30.279

you know, I can work with me with her. and then, because I feel guilty if I don't take it to all the library books to write the research paper, you know, we get carted up there and back, um, overly optimistic packing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

00:34:31.090 - 00:34:48.570

Mm. Hm. So, did you, it says what was your port of entry? So, did you just come straight to Boston? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, you asked if I missed. So it was hard because I was seeing them once, but then seeing my aunt, um, helped and

00:34:48.580 - 00:35:05.949

we talked on the phone or have you known your aunt before? Um, coming to America? Um, yeah, we'd met up over the years. She visited us in Paris and in Bangladesh and in London. So, you know, I don't think I grew up seeing any of my

00:35:05.959 - 00:35:19.820

relatives annually but every so often and, you know, she'd always sent his birthday cards and things. So we were close, you know. So, yeah, that wasn't a shock. And I got to know her Children, her sons were both much younger than me, but it was nice

00:35:19.830 - 00:35:32.870

to get to know, you know, one part of the family on a regular basis, every, every Christmas and they, because they had been here for a long time, they had a Christmas tree and things like that, which I hadn't grown up with. You know, we, I,

00:35:32.879 - 00:35:52.699

I knew all the songs, all the Christmas carols from school, but we never had a tree at home or the practice of presents at Christmas. Um, so that's where I got that formal training by going to their house, formal training and traditions of, you know, Christmas

00:35:52.709 - 00:36:10.100

Eve and Christmas morning and all that stuff. And so what was your next question? Well, now, sort of going off of that. Did you, um, did, what did you do for Thanksgiving? I was in Boston. Uh, I used to stay on campus. Um, it'd stay on

00:36:10.110 - 00:36:26.270

campus. Yeah. It wasn't a big holiday to go away anywhere we could stay on campus. I think I went back to my Boston roommates house once and then maybe another Boston friend's house. Um, may have been to stay overnight. May have been just, you know, go

00:36:26.280 - 00:36:42.909

there for the meal and then come back to campus. Yeah. Our campus stayed open and this one shuts down. No, it stays open for Thanksgiving. Christmas. It closes down. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Yeah, I think I basically stayed around. I never traveled for Thanksgiving. I'm pretty sure.

00:36:44.810 - 00:37:11.530

Yeah, I've I've done the, like, imposing on various Houston friends, but they'll invite you when they know you're here. Right. Oh, it's the worst time to travel. Yeah. Um, was it difficult to get a visa, I guess during any stage? Yes. Yes, because, um, the first

00:37:11.540 - 00:37:24.719

time was very easy. Right. My dad was ambassador to Kuwait. So he would just say he, he made an appointment or the embassy, the Bangladesh Embassy. He made an appointment with the US Embassy. He came with me. We sat down in an ice room, probably got

00:37:24.729 - 00:37:41.050

coffee or coke or something and the paperwork was done and then we left and then summer of 1990 was the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. So, and that was my junior the summer between junior and senior year. So I'd worked at the Arab Times the

00:37:41.060 - 00:37:57.250

first two summers and a freshman and a sophomore junior summer. I was going to do senior thesis research in Bangladesh, but I bought my ticket on Kuwait Airways from Boston to Kuwait to Bangladesh and then I was going to come back. So I I came to

00:37:57.260 - 00:38:11.570

Kuwait in June when uh Harvard ended, saw my parents and then went down to Bangladesh, August 2nd, the invasion happens my I 20 all all my paperwork for my visa had been sent to Kuwait, but there was no way I was going to come back. I

00:38:11.580 - 00:38:29.459

could come back to Kuwait in August or early September to do my Kuwait airways thing back to Boston. So I contacted Harvard and they sent the stuff to me in Bangladesh and then I had to go to the US Embassy in Bangladesh by myself. No, no,

00:38:29.469 - 00:38:42.429

you know, no dad, no special appointment. I think someone in the foreign service there obviously, you know, maybe got me a little in and I remember I had all the, you know, I had what I had. I didn't have my parents financial statements or anything like

00:38:42.439 - 00:38:53.320

that because they were stuck in Kuwait. And I remember, you know, she had one year left at Harvard, the woman, you know, asked me all the questions and I said, I'm sorry, I don't have this, I don't have that. There's a war, you know, this Kuwait's

00:38:53.330 - 00:39:06.899

under occupation. And I just remember so clearly she took off her uh glasses and said, you know, I could deny you this visa if I wanted to. I was so it was just such a power trip. I was so, I don't know, she knew I'd been

00:39:06.909 - 00:39:17.010

there and back and where my parents were and what was going on in Kuwait. And she's a bit, you know, I'll let you go. I mean, it's true. I didn't have every single piece of paper, but for good reason, but I'd been there and left and,

00:39:17.020 - 00:39:34.409

you know, uh she knew exactly where I was going so that I remember. Um, but so that was the only time I had to, uh, you know, got, had, had, you know, the slightest difficulty getting a visa otherwise, you know, it's very straightforward. They send you

00:39:34.479 - 00:39:48.020

paperwork from the university and then you show your bank statement or your parents bank statements, et cetera, how you'll cover the financial aid for this and that and the other. And, um, this is long before 9 11. I think it's gotten harder since then. I know

00:39:48.030 - 00:40:05.360

cousins who have tried to come since then. And I think, and they've made it, but it's always been much harder even for Children of, you know, former diplomats or, you know, even people of, you know, the Children of well connected people. It's, it's getting harder and

00:40:05.370 - 00:40:22.469

harder. Do you think, even for a sort of similar student visa situation, you know, I had a cousin who got into Princeton and his father, my uncle was also a diplomat and I don't know if he'd retired already by then or was still in the foreign

00:40:22.479 - 00:40:35.610

service. But they, you know, they made it, they dragged it out enough that everyone was very stressed about what would he be there when school in the semester began? And he got it in the end. But there was a lot of stress which I don't remember

00:40:35.639 - 00:41:02.120

from the first time I came. So, this is, you know, 56 years ago, so, post 9 11, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Have you kept up with news and popular culture um in, I guess in Bangladesh and maybe more generally in any parts of the world that

00:41:02.129 - 00:41:23.290

you lived in. Um Bangladesh. Yes, because I ended up doing my senior thesis and uh dissertation on Bangladesh. So I, so I kept going back so that summer of 1990 when I went to do research and my parents were still in Kuwait was the first time

00:41:23.300 - 00:41:37.929

I felt I'm going there on my own as a grown up whenever I was 21 going on my own. And I'll meet people who are not related to me and have a adult conversation. So that was, that was a big summer for me. Um And, and

00:41:37.939 - 00:41:55.310

I've gone back many times since then and I do keep up with the news. Obviously, I, you know, as I said, I, I do consider myself from there. Um Other places I, I think not as a, in, as intimate a way. So France, for example, doesn't

00:41:55.320 - 00:42:09.340

seem as personal to me. You know, I'll keep up with the news there the way I would any other place and my husband is Lebanese. So Lebanon came back to hunt me and be part of my life again. So, and I go there and I started

00:42:09.350 - 00:42:29.979

doing some research there recently so that again has become more personal to me. Um Yeah, but other places, what are the other places, Kuwait? Yeah, I guess Kuwait, I sort of keep tabs on. Um, but I think friends I care about but it doesn't feel more

00:42:29.989 - 00:42:44.129

mind than other, you know, it's, uh, it's less personal. Yeah. Poland. Poland, actually I do because I think, you know, people don't know as much about Poland so I feel, you know, I should sort of take care of Poland. So, you know, I don't know, I

00:42:44.139 - 00:42:58.790

feel invested more France has enough people to. Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, France is fine but I guess if I hear about neighborhoods I know or something then it feels more uh special. But otherwise, yeah, France is fine, whatever, you know, there are enough people doing

00:42:58.800 - 00:43:25.030

France. Um Well, so how did you decide uh what um academic path to pursue? What, like drew you to it, to academic path or the field within uh to the field you chose? And I guess maybe more generally academics. Um, I guess when I was coming

00:43:25.040 - 00:43:40.100

to college, the assumption was that I would study economics because many people came to Harvard from places like Bangladesh to study economics. And then the idea was that and then you go back and you apply to fix the problems in your country and I'd done a

00:43:40.149 - 00:43:53.760

level economics which is, um, I don't know, it's the British system and you take it when you're 18, it's a, a level is an advanced level economics. So, you know, I, I got to Harvard and I could have placed out of the intro class but I

00:43:53.770 - 00:44:13.469

realized I really didn't enjoy economics. I ended up doing this interdisciplinary major called social studies, which is an honors only major you have to apply to it to get in. And then you take courses in different social sciences, which includes history there, history, psychology, sociology, anthropology,

00:44:13.479 - 00:44:27.810

politics, all these different things. And then you have to write a senior thesis where you bring it all together. So to for my senior thesis, I ended up writing on the Grameen Bank, the microcredit organization, the founder gave the commencement speech here last year. Yeah, last

00:44:27.820 - 00:44:42.840

summer, Dr Yunus. And uh they got the Nobel Peace Prize for the organization and Dr Yunus in 2006, but not back then back then. And, you know, sort of floundering, what shall I write on? And my uncle, the father of the Princeton cousin said, you know,

00:44:42.850 - 00:44:58.989

there's this new organization working on women. Why don't you go right on them? Oh, ok. I did a term paper for a, a seminar based on material that the Grameen Bank sent to me and other research I did. And then in the summer I got the

00:44:59.000 - 00:45:10.739

money to go there and that's when the Kuwait stuff happened. So when it was so I knew I wanted to go to grad school because I, I played around a little bit. You know, I think I interviewed for a couple of jobs that everyone seemed to

00:45:10.750 - 00:45:25.770

be going into consulting, which I still don't know what that means. And, um, and so I did that, I, you know, I didn't get very far and I also couldn't bear the idea of, you know, sort of a clock, like a real job and, you know,

00:45:25.780 - 00:45:37.270

having to dress a certain way and be at a certain place at a certain time, all that stuff. So, I, um, so I looked, and I think I, I always knew I wanted an advanced degree. So even if I'd gotten a consulting job, it would have

00:45:37.280 - 00:45:51.580

been for a couple of years and then I'd have gone on to grad school. So when it was time to choose what to apply for in grad school, I talked to my advisor and I said I wanted to do social studies. I love this interdisciplinary stuff.

00:45:51.939 - 00:46:10.760

And my advisor said, you, you can't do that in grad school. You need to pick a discipline. So, um, so I, she's an economist. She's a feminist economist. So I think from her perspective, political science looked very open and um interdisciplinary or abroad. So she said,

00:46:10.770 - 00:46:24.350

do politics, it'll, you know, political science, politics, government, it's called different things at different schools do that. I think that would be good for you. And I'd only taken one politics class as an undergrad. So I thought, oh God, what do I say in my statement?

00:46:24.389 - 00:46:39.649

So this is what I came up with. I said that for my senior thesis, I looked at how rural women in Bangladesh come together to engage in collective economic action. What I would like to do in graduate school through my study of political science or government

00:46:39.659 - 00:46:52.719

or politics is, look at how they come together to engage in political action. That was the extent of what I could have. I, I didn't know any debate. I didn't know anything about the discipline I worked at, I got into all the schools I wanted to

00:46:52.729 - 00:47:09.189

get into. And then, um, oh, and the, for the year after graduation I got a fellowship to go back to Bangladesh and work with rural women. So I was actually in Bangladesh when I applied and, you know, I see routinely every year these grad students who

00:47:09.199 - 00:47:19.810

got, who got in to say the history program come and they look around and they talk to people and I'm like, God, I was sitting in Bangladesh, I had no idea where any of these places were. And I just, you know, so I chose Princeton because

00:47:19.820 - 00:47:32.770

it's on the east coast because I knew New York. So I thought, ok, it's near New York. I don't know where Chicago, you know, I've never been to Chicago or, or even be, you know, all these other places, they just were in places I didn't know.

00:47:32.780 - 00:47:46.879

Whereas Princeton, I could peg as being close to New York City, which I knew. So that's what happened. And it turned out to be a good decision because at places like Chicago they let in many people but then they weed them out after two years. Whereas

00:47:46.889 - 00:48:01.709

Princeton, they take fewer people and, you know, they get them through the degree. So by chance I made the right decision. So that worked out. So I applied to politics and Princeton was a good place. It was, um, I ended up taking courses in other departments

00:48:01.719 - 00:48:17.399

too. And, uh, and then over the, you know, over time, I mean, I've already been interested in women but I didn't do a certificate or anything in women's studies, but there was enough of it in my work, I guess that I was able to get jobs

00:48:17.409 - 00:48:34.760

alter in women's studies when I, um, finished. So I don't know that I went in knowing that I was interested in politics. But once I had to make up my personal statement and look deeper into it and didn't, well, because politics could be defined broadly enough.

00:48:34.770 - 00:48:50.830

In the end, my advisor had a point there that, you know, if you're doing economics, there's less room for maneuver whereas politics can be defined, you know, as political protest or just redefining different things. So it, um, it worked out, you know, it just worked out

00:48:51.120 - 00:49:08.560

but I really wasn't interested in politics. It's like something I knew, you know, from the beginning, even just like every time I like, look you up, I always forget like, what paths I have to take to find you because you're not under the history list. Like,

00:49:08.570 - 00:49:24.899

even though you're here. And well, because when I was hired, the center didn't have its own space. The director at the time I think was Hoffer or Helena Mickey or Paula Sanders. But we didn't have, now we have a hallway downstairs. We didn't even have a

00:49:24.909 - 00:49:40.830

hallway then. And the reason Rice ended up hiring is that ok? So I came here and my husband is in the history department and then, um, they, I was still writing my dissertation. So they gave me a little office space in and fond and I sat

00:49:40.840 - 00:49:55.080

there and doing my dissertation. But then, you know, I had to apply for jobs. And the job I got was in California, a proper ten-year track job. And there they, you know, it was uh 50% women studies and 50% political science. So I went off, we

00:49:55.090 - 00:50:10.530

commuted for two years. So no kids. It was fine. I mean, it was hard but it was ok. Um, and then Irvine decided to do a search in Middle East history and offered Osama a job. So that's when, you know, when he said, well, I can

00:50:10.679 - 00:50:24.840

go to Irvine and be there with my wife unless you find her a job here. They created a job for me. Otherwise there's no, you know, there's no reason for a position like mine. I don't have a department. So then they created the job. And then,

00:50:24.850 - 00:50:38.989

because women's studies had no line, no space. History said, well, in order to retain Osama, we'll give her space here. So this is where I've been for 10 years. And it's fine because, you know, I like historians. I like history. Um, and, and then finally they

00:50:39.000 - 00:50:52.929

got the space downstairs and, you know, I often talked about moving down but there hasn't really been office space there. So, you know, I'm connected by the stairs on the back. Um So it's uh it's, it's worked out. But yeah, I'm not in any department. I

00:50:52.939 - 00:51:09.110

teach in Asian studies and women and gender studies. Um Asian studies has been a program for a long time, but it's only recently that it's become the fancy center that it is now, but Doctor Barlow has done a lot of. So the fundraising happened with uh

00:51:09.120 - 00:51:28.590

the Chows and Rick Smith worked on that for a very long time. Um Should I pause it? I like, maybe I should just, the fundraising had been happening for some time. But uh once we hired Tony Barlow, she came and gave the center shape and she's

00:51:28.600 - 00:51:42.780

a force. Have you had dealings with? In what capacity? Um I took a, I took a course with her a year or two ago. Um Gender history in modern China. It was really interesting. Yeah. No, no, no, I was on the search committee so I'll take

00:51:42.790 - 00:51:59.350

credit. Um um So, yeah, so we've been very pleased. It's just given the Child Center this huge international and national profile. So that's, that's been good. So my responsibilities are in these two places. But because the way the the rice system is set up, I can't

00:51:59.360 - 00:52:14.879

be called as uh or whatever, my rank professor of women and gender studies or Asian studies. So that's why I have this bizarre title of, you know, now associate professor of humanities. And because I had this training in political science, I got a courtesy appointment with

00:52:14.889 - 00:52:31.260

the poly department, but we don't, they do a very different kind of political science. So I cross list courses with them every now and then. But, um, I'm not a member of the department and I don't think it would be a good trip. Um, yeah. So,

00:52:31.270 - 00:52:49.300

yeah, I think the cent, the two centers are where you'll find me and nowhere else go to the center website on the women and gender studies website. That's where I am. Has it been at all? Strange being a bit of a, like a spouse hire? No.

00:52:49.310 - 00:53:06.810

Um, because I had my own job if I hadn't had that, I think it would have been weird because I never would have known if I could get my own job. But because I have that and we chose to come here in the sense that he

00:53:06.820 - 00:53:21.870

could have chosen to go there. Um, it hasn't affected me. I think if I'd never had that I always would have wondered, you know, could I get my own job without, you know, being taken and to retain a Selma? But it hasn't been an issue. I

00:53:21.879 - 00:53:45.010

don't think so. Um, how is the transition from single life to married life? Um, it's been good, you know, it's just, I mean, my parents and his parents, despite all their openness, et cetera, when we said we wanted to marry one another, it is a big

00:53:45.020 - 00:53:59.260

shock to both families. So for me, that sort of color. So moment, you know, we're different countries, different religions. So that was a huge deal. And I remember, I think was Salma said it at the time, you know, the parents keep thinking, oh my God, you're

00:53:59.270 - 00:54:12.590

gonna lose your culture. And he, I think he put it beautifully. He said instead what they should be thinking of is how you're gaining a culture. So my Arabic is terrible. But, you know, I feel as I said, intimately involved in what's happening in Lebanon, you

00:54:12.600 - 00:54:27.810

know, some things that I like more than others, you know, the food, the culture, the, you know, all that stuff. So for me, it was, it was a transition to married life but also a transition to being sort of part Lebanese in some ways, you know,

00:54:27.820 - 00:54:42.370

being exposed to all of that and going there on a regular basis. Um you know, every year we go. Um So it was more that II I, you know, I was in college and I was in grad school and we got married in grad school as

00:54:42.379 - 00:54:59.149

poor grad students. And then, um, so I think my adult singlehood, singlehood, single life was basically the two years I was in Irvine in California, kind of because we were commuting. So I had my, a little studio on campus and I had to do all my

00:54:59.159 - 00:55:10.370

stuff. I mean, you know, we just, we flew back and forth a lot, but that's probably the closest I came to having a job and being single because being single in college doesn't count in the same way, you know. Um, so I think that was the

00:55:10.379 - 00:55:32.459

closest. So for me, when I think of the transition, it's more to do with sort of the cultural enrichment that came along with it, I think. Have you had any trouble sort of reconciling that now that you have Children? Um, no, I mean, we, we're trying

00:55:32.469 - 00:55:50.699

to raise them trilingual. Um, wow. Well, it, it worked for the, for, uh my son who's now our son who's now eight better the first few years. So even though he went to, you know, a local preschool at the University of Houston from age 18 months

00:55:51.729 - 00:56:03.229

and it was exposed to English and of course Osama and I speak to one another in English. So he knows we all know English. Um, we would speak to him, I'd speak to him in Bengali. And Osama would speak to him in Arabic. And until age

00:56:03.239 - 00:56:15.659

five or six, she would be very good about responding to me in Bengali and speaking to Osama in E in Arabic. And then he'd even, he was so cute translate thinking, you know, we really had no idea that I had no clue of Arabic and I

00:56:15.669 - 00:56:31.639

had no clue of Bengali. So at that age, you know, we could, we knew enough to know what's going on to translate. And then once he started kindergarten, just English sort of took over and I can see it, you know, some, he, it, it's easier for

00:56:31.649 - 00:56:47.149

him to express complex thoughts in English. And I think sometimes it's easier for us too. But, you know, so, so now he tends to speak back in English a lot more and uh but we just keep talking to him in our languages. So at least it's,

00:56:47.159 - 00:57:03.500

you know, collecting in there somewhere with my, with our daughter who's four years younger. It's been a total failure because she speaks to her in English. So she's, you know, she'll, she's mostly English with a few words. So she basically never even had the face he

00:57:03.510 - 00:57:22.010

had of at least being trilingual for a few years and she's been English thoroughly from the very beginning and she'll every now and then grace us with a few words in Bengali Arabic. Um Yeah. So that's uh that's where they've experienced the mix and how we're

00:57:22.020 - 00:57:39.870

trying to make it work. But, uh, and, you know, food will rotate between different cuisines but also cuisines that we have no connection to the Southeast Asian or Italian. So, food is very mixed at home. Um, yeah. Uh, what are the religions in your family? Um,

00:57:39.879 - 00:57:56.729

I'm Muslim Islam. Is Christian. So that hasn't come up that I think that's what both families were most worried about in Lebanon. Religious identity is very important even if you're not religious. Uh, so it's sort of your identity. Um, because it's also on your ID. Um,

00:57:57.639 - 00:58:16.370

he's not very, his family is not very religious and my parents are, I mean, certainly more than me. So what I, what we've tried to do for the kids and it's come on me to do this because Osama doesn't, um, it's just, I'm trying to teach

00:58:16.379 - 00:58:30.320

them sort of the good moral, ethical principles of all religions. So, so they don't identify as one or the other but they know there are Christians out there and there are Muslims out there and you know, everything else and they all believe. I mean, for new,

00:58:30.330 - 00:58:43.909

our daughter it's not very relevant but for our son, I went and bought this book about world religions. I say, let me read this together. So we all the holidays. So, Christmas is a big deal. Um, so good thing you had that training. Yeah. No. No.

00:58:43.919 - 00:58:56.300

Exactly. But I kept thinking my God, how did I know what to do the first time I had Christmas at their house and I remember my connecting experience. Um Yeah, so there was that and then we celebrate the end of Ramadan, for example. Um you know,

00:58:56.310 - 00:59:11.550

I'll have a big party and make it fun for the kids. Um So, and you know, we've gotten to know more people. Um Now I was just remembering today when I teach my gender in Islam class, I have the students go do an interview with a

00:59:11.560 - 00:59:24.189

Muslim woman. And I was remembering today when I was thinking about, you know, coming in to see you the first year I taught it, I actually didn't know that many Muslim women in Houston. So I wasn't able to be that helpful to my students. I had

00:59:24.199 - 00:59:36.219

to ask around and then the last time I taught it, I'd already met many more. So I think I was much more helpful in terms. Oh, you might want to consider or, you know, I, I check with them first. Do you mind if my student contacts

00:59:36.229 - 00:59:50.770

you about an interview? But there was, you know, it happened gradually. So when I first moved here, I didn't know that many. So I think having, you know, exposing them to different kinds of people has, you know, they, they meet Lebanese and they meet uh Bengalis.

00:59:50.939 - 01:00:05.179

But the kids all speak to one another in English because I think it's the language of play. You know, it's hard to play monopoly in Bengali around. I don't, I don't know how it works but, you know, they're all, even the Children of, you know, where

01:00:05.189 - 01:00:20.889

both parents are Bengali or Lebanese when the kids get together, they just do it and they, they talk and English. So it hasn't, uh, that hasn't been as helpful to the language as I had hoped. It would have been fine. I think it's more important that

01:00:20.899 - 01:00:34.510

they're exposed to everything all the time and then at some point it'll all settle down or they'll get to college and be one of these heritage learners of, you know, Bengali or Arabic or something. And they'll have some base in their heads that will give them

01:00:34.520 - 01:00:48.479

an advantage and they'll be able to talk to you at least. I mean, now they understand everything, both of them. It's just that, you know, they, I think they just has, it's English comes out more naturally and they hear so much of it at home. So

01:00:48.489 - 01:01:09.179

it's, uh, and served me all day long at school. Right. I mean, ii, I know what's happening. I just keep wishing they would speak more Bengali Arabic. Um, do they have, they had the chance to spend much time with your extended families back home? Um, either

01:01:09.189 - 01:01:24.129

way, like taking them to see them or them visiting here? Yeah. Uh, we go home every summer to both places. It's exhausting. So we go from here to Beirut from to Bangladesh, back to Beirut and then back here. Um but we've, we've made a sort of

01:01:24.139 - 01:01:39.540

rule of that because they have, um, there are no cousins on my side. I have three younger sisters, but no one has kids yet. And on Osama's side, um he has an older brother with two kids. They live in California and a younger brother with two

01:01:39.550 - 01:01:54.360

kids and they live in Beirut. So in the summer, all three brothers coordinate and get together as the grandparents. So all six cousins are together for just a couple of weeks at least. And then the L A cousins, we see every Christmas and we take turns,

01:01:54.370 - 01:02:10.770

we celebrate Christmas here one year and in L A um the other year and the grandparents come whenever they come. So, um yeah, so, and then my sisters, one's in London, one's a grad student at Harvard, but she's been in Bangladesh the last year. And then

01:02:10.780 - 01:02:26.300

my youngest sister lives in Bangladesh. Um still with my parents. So they, so they know the London one least because she's in London. So we only see her when we're going through London and she's been to visit um with the other two, they see regularly, uh

01:02:26.310 - 01:02:42.909

when my other one's in Boston when my third sister is in Boston and she's come down to, you know, for long visits and uh went and we've also managed to overlap and the last couple of summers. So they, so they know the younger two, uh, better,

01:02:42.919 - 01:03:00.439

but they're no cousins. So, you know, it's not the same kind of connection but my sisters try really hard to get to the level of cousins, you know, they'll, they'll play with them and do whatever they need. Um, did you have any concerns about raising a

01:03:00.449 - 01:03:23.590

family in America? I don't think so. Um, I think it's unrealistic, you know, I'll have friends who will say, oh, we don't want to raise kids here because of this, that and the other and the world is so globalized now. I don't think there's anything here

01:03:24.199 - 01:03:37.689

that's not also present there in terms of, you know, TV, they watch or movies they see. I think the home environment is the most important thing. You know, I have friends who worry about private school versus public school and we live very, you know, across the

01:03:37.699 - 01:03:55.419

street from a really good public schools for me. I wasn't worried that they wouldn't, well, my daughter is still in um private preschool because there's no public preschool. My, our son goes there and it's a great school. Plus, you know, I think so much learning happens

01:03:55.429 - 01:04:10.739

at home that, you know, because also I grew up, you know, moving so they put me in whatever school they could afford or, you know, or was available wherever we were. So when we were in England, there was a good English public, you know, everything's in

01:04:10.750 - 01:04:26.669

English and there was a good public school nearby. So that's where I went when we were in, um, Poland. Nothing. So that just sent me to boarding school in England. Right. So, and I maybe it's wrong to think that it'll, it'll work out for everyone the

01:04:26.679 - 01:04:42.469

way I, I, you know, it did for me. But I think for me in the end, the home environment is so much and I think, you know, my parents while well educated, you know, to move to Europe and have to learn many things um from scratch.

01:04:42.479 - 01:04:56.260

So in that sense, my kids already have an advantage because we're very at home here. You know, we know what's what and how to navigate things. Um So I think, you know, they'll be fine whatever school they go to and in the end it's for us

01:04:56.270 - 01:05:11.169

to protect them or to prepare them. Um I don't, so, you know, to answer your question, I don't think what would be nice about raising them at home. It would be the language, but I think even back home, it's not just the friends here when the

01:05:11.179 - 01:05:30.479

cousins get together, the six cousins, it's, it's all in English, even back home, even in Beirut. Um So I don't know, the language would necessarily be even, yeah, except the adults, you know, there'd be more people speaking Bengali or Arabic. Um So, you know, I, I,

01:05:31.340 - 01:05:44.780

on the other hand, you know, he was born in the us but grew up in Lebanon until so he was, he was born in Washington. Moved back when he was four, grew up in, grew up there until 16 and then came back to the US for

01:05:45.020 - 01:06:01.679

um, a year of uh prep school and then college and, and the rest. So because I didn't have that experience, it's not something I, I relate to. So II, I think it's possible to maintain a connection just by going back regularly, but maybe I'm wrong. You

01:06:01.689 - 01:06:16.370

know, we're not representing Bangladesh or Lebanon. So my kids may not have the experience that I did right growing up that OK, we're the Bangladesh representatives in Poland or so I don't know, but I'm not worried about being here in the way I know some other

01:06:16.379 - 01:06:39.189

people are. Yeah, there are many advantages to being here. So um did your husband or in-laws ever have any doubts about you pursuing a career? Yes. My husband, my mother-in-law was worried at some point. She said if you're both working, who will take care of the

01:06:39.199 - 01:06:55.580

kids if one of them is sick. So, and I think it had more to do with her own issues. She was um when they lived in Washington DC, her husband was at the IMF the International Monetary Fund and Economist, but she was very well educated, of

01:06:55.590 - 01:07:12.370

course. And she went off, she said when she went to be a master's student, she had two kids at home and was pregnant and she said she was the only married woman in her master's class. So, this is America in the 19 sixties. And she was,

01:07:12.379 - 01:07:28.500

it was either Georgetown or George Washington. I, I forget which university. So, and then at some, you know, they decided not to stay in Washington anymore and move back to bath in the early seventies. And I think, you know, her concerns about, mm. It's sorry, it

01:07:28.510 - 01:07:40.550

wasn't when I was going to get married. It's when I was going to accept a job in Irvine and go off in a commuting relationship. Right. We're married but in two different places, maybe it was when I was married. I know it was when we were

01:07:40.560 - 01:07:56.139

getting married. Not there are other concerns about. Um, and so she, she, um, so I think it reflected her own, the very difficult position she found herself in. So she did the masters as the only married woman in her class, but then decided not to pursue

01:07:56.800 - 01:08:14.989

a phd. Ok. So, and then she did sign up for a phd at age 55 or something in England. And, uh, in the end didn't finish that because she got so busy writing her own book. She's a very successful author. Um, yeah. So, um, have anything

01:08:15.000 - 01:08:32.180

here. So she wrote her own books and, and sent them and, and so, you know, never had time to finish her dissertation. You know, she gets great reviews and this one after this. Um, so I think it, it sort of when she saw me trying to

01:08:32.189 - 01:08:46.209

make choices about what to do. She was, uh, I think it just made her reflect back on the choices she had made as a mother in the early seventies. So I think it was less about me and more about her thinking, oh, my God. Did I

01:08:46.220 - 01:08:57.970

make the wrong choice? I should have insisted and gotten a phd and gotten a job back then. But, you know, she's done very well for herself and she doesn't need a phd because what we told her is, you know, we get a phd so that we

01:08:57.979 - 01:09:11.540

can write books, people will buy and if people are already buying your books, you know, unless you want, why do you need a phd? Um So that was the only, so when we were getting married, her concern was if you're both working, then, you know, we'll

01:09:11.549 - 01:09:25.859

take care of the kids. If one of them is sick. And then when I was going off to Irvine again, um because we were in Beirut that semester, Osama had a fellowship. So we were in Beirut and I got the offer from Irvine and, you know,

01:09:25.870 - 01:09:37.500

Osama and I both agreed it would be difficult. But if I don't get my own job, you know what we were talking about earlier, I'd always, you know, if I waited around for, you know, rice would never rice was under no obligation to give me a

01:09:37.509 - 01:09:52.180

job. It's only the threat of Osama leaving of a faculty member leaving that makes them, you know, any institution, it's not just right, any academic institution will only do it in order to keep someone, you know, the, the person who's already here as a retention thing.

01:09:52.629 - 01:10:04.979

So, you know, we knew that if I didn't do that, I'd, you know, I'd be adjunct for the rest of my life. I rise, you know, they'd give me courses. So the very first time I taught Asians, I was, I was still writing my dissertation. Um

01:10:05.470 - 01:10:18.279

I got to teach with Rick and Nan and, you know, there, I was, you know, barely, you know, sort of a third year grad student or something. It was a great experience not getting up there in front of 70 people. Um, but I think it prepared

01:10:18.290 - 01:10:32.319

me well for giving job talks and, you know, after that. Um, but had I not gotten my own job, I think that would have been my future, you know, being at the mercy of odd jobs I could find around Houston. So we knew it was going

01:10:32.330 - 01:10:44.169

to be difficult, but that I needed to go up and get my own job and then I could bargain with rise from a position of strength or, you know, whatever Osama would get a job there and then we'd both be there. Um So I think for

01:10:45.009 - 01:10:56.029

so my pa, for my parents, it was also very clear, you know, you've, you've worked all these years, of course, you should go get your own job even if it's hard. But I think from their perspective it was, hold on, you're going to leave our son

01:10:56.040 - 01:11:08.310

and go up and get this job in California. What, what does that mean for your marriage? You know, what kind of marriage is this? And, you know, I think a really difficult choice. I, I mean, I remember the first time, you know, he took me there

01:11:08.319 - 01:11:22.379

and left me there. I thought, oh my God, we have no idea how long, you know, this may last, you know, this commuting because there was no prospect of a job for the other person at either place. Um But it worked out, you know, we were

01:11:22.390 - 01:11:36.140

very lucky. We met people even in Irvine who had had to commute for eight years. You know, I think, I think we knew that, you know, if something didn't work out in two or three years, one of us would make a decision and uh move or

01:11:36.149 - 01:11:55.580

something. So we were very lucky and I feel very active, generally things have worked out. Um So this is sort of, this is a bit of a digression on the, the mention of your dissertation. Um But you said that you went back to Bangladesh and like

01:11:55.589 - 01:12:13.879

sort of worked among women there. Um Did, how is that for you as sort of a part of that community and yet not. Did they see you as an outsider as a, as a Bangladeshi or as an American? I was just re reading the introduction to

01:12:13.890 - 01:12:33.600

my book where I talk about this um because I didn't grow up in Bangladesh, my Bengali, you know, I read and write Bengali, but because I didn't go to any Bengali medium schools, for example, it's not really sophisticated Bengali and also written. Bengali is very different

01:12:33.609 - 01:12:49.290

from spoken Bengali. It's that other level of formality to it too, which I think exists in Arabic and maybe some other languages. But, you know, sort of French English, you can, you know, there are some colloquialisms that you wouldn't use in written English, but otherwise it's

01:12:49.299 - 01:13:05.649

pretty much the same language, right, written and spoken, but not so in Bengali and certainly not so in Arabic. So the research I was doing was in, with rural women who are typically uneducated. So what people at the Grameen Bank, for example, told me is that

01:13:05.660 - 01:13:20.000

you really know how to relate to them because that's the Bengali, you know, that's the level of my Bengali. Um But uh the line I have in my uh introduction is that so it worked very well for me in the villages because I could speak to

01:13:20.009 - 01:13:35.819

them. You know, my Bengali was, you know, perfectly well, worked perfectly well for them. But when I'd be in sort of more formal settings, like academic seminars. I wouldn't find the words. So that was harder for me. Um So I think the fact that I could

01:13:35.830 - 01:13:52.649

sit and relate to them and, and I, because both my grandmothers had spent time in rural Bangladesh and, you know, in Bangladesh, you always have a village home. You know, it's not, you don't say you're from Dhaka or from any of the cities, you know, it's,

01:13:53.089 - 01:14:08.339

it's a point of pride to be able to say, you know, exactly which village your family came from. So, you know, I know both my parents village homes and have spent summers there and time there. Um, so it wasn't an unfamiliar setting and, you know, and

01:14:08.350 - 01:14:20.399

I did research in both those villages as well as other places. So the fact that I could speak to the women, I think, even though they saw that, you know, I, I probably have an accent. I mean, I've had people tell me that. Yeah, we can

01:14:20.410 - 01:14:33.009

tell you I didn't grow up in Bangladesh. I think it's also because my Bengali when I do speak it is in some ways to however limited it is, is very proper because if you don't grow up, you don't learn the slang, right? I don't know any

01:14:33.020 - 01:14:50.830

bad words. I know you learned it only with my parents overseas. Right. So you can imagine. So. So I think that's what, that's probably what, you know, some cousins mean when they say, oh, you can, you know, it's clear you didn't grow up here. Um What,

01:14:50.839 - 01:15:02.680

what did strike me once is, you know, I had to go for research from one town to another and I just went, you know, people would all, oh, you can't travel alone. You're a woman this and that and that. So what I have to and there

01:15:02.689 - 01:15:16.910

was a time, you know, my uncle took, came with me on the train ride, took me there, settled me down and then came back because it's not proper for young women in their twenties to be single women to be traveling alone like this. And then on

01:15:16.919 - 01:15:34.160

the way back, I think I finished research early. So I just took a train back by myself. So I think that's where my ease, you know, being used to traveling alone here served me well. But I remember people there being quite shocked by it and also

01:15:34.169 - 01:15:47.990

because you only train their classes and the trains are first class, the nicest seats, the nicest carriage and then uh all the way down to third class. I think I traveled second class cause that's all they had. So I remember my cousins who had grown up

01:15:48.000 - 01:15:58.350

there being oh my God, you travel second class and you sat with these people you don't know whereas for me it wasn't such a big deal. I mean I sit next to all sorts of people here on the on planes. Right. I don't know what they

01:15:58.359 - 01:16:13.319

do for a living. Um, so that was interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Um, so, yeah, I think everyone could tell that I hadn't grown up there, but I think in the villages they were quite happy to talk to me because I took an interest. Um,

01:16:13.330 - 01:16:29.259

and in the end that's all that mattered. The other thing I do I talk about in my book is my parents are both from southeastern Bangladesh or province or district called Chittagong and it has its own dialect. So growing up, my parents never encouraged us to

01:16:29.270 - 01:16:43.080

speak it. They said you should, you know, you should speak proper Bengali and they spoke the dialect to one another. So I grew up never learning the dialect. So when I did do research in Chittagong, they laughed at me. I think that put the women at

01:16:43.089 - 01:17:00.259

ease that, that here's something that I, I don't know how to do and they do. I think that helped them. Um And in other places it was fine. Um So, yeah, so I was, yes, I was insider in some ways outsider and others and better both.

01:17:00.919 - 01:17:22.439

Uh were there, were there a lot of that sort of like um sort of like difference in genders going back that you had to get used to um going back is more about, you know, this is what you should wear and not wear. Um I started

01:17:22.450 - 01:17:39.419

very early, you know, I would wear, I mean, even here, normally when I teach I find our clothing very comfortable, especially for the Houston weather is exactly like Bangladesh weather. So I wear salaries. Um, a lot, Saris I haven't worn since my kids were, my daughter

01:17:39.430 - 01:17:54.350

was born because it just takes a long time to put on, you know, the sari. Um, so I haven't done that but on teaching days when it's not freezing cold weather I'll wear, um, this is what I wear when I don't have meetings and I'm not

01:17:54.359 - 01:18:21.589

teaching. Could you spell that actually? Oh, sorry. Uh, the Sal Rwar. That's one word still. And then the way I write is hyphenated dash KK A Meez. So, is a cognitive chemi or the French? It's, it's the long shirt and then the, the baggy pants and

01:18:21.600 - 01:18:38.709

then it's usually a scarf. So it's a three part thing. Um, so I, I'd wear those. Um, I think when I was younger. So, dissertation research I'd gotten into blending in. I think when we went back from London between 11 and 14, you know, there was

01:18:38.720 - 01:18:56.009

a little girl becoming a sort of a teenager. That's when people started saying, oh, you probably shouldn't wear dresses anymore and things like that. There was some of that. Um, I think the other time, gender roles were four sisters. My father was, he just him and

01:18:56.020 - 01:19:13.140

another brother. My mother's side, there are seven siblings, three brothers and then four sisters when I got the offer. You know. So, because we're, we were overseas, we operated pretty much as a nuclear family. Right. So, even though that we had, we were very much in

01:19:13.149 - 01:19:26.379

touch with the extended family back home, many decisions we just took, of course I was going to apply to the best schools and see what happened. But many people when I got into Harvard, I know many people said to my parents you're gonna let a girl

01:19:26.390 - 01:19:41.149

go all the way there by herself. He doesn't know this place. You know, uh, it's really risky, you know. Um, whereas I think they wouldn't have said that if I were a boy but my parents, I don't be able to. So, you know, my parents, you

01:19:41.160 - 01:19:54.169

know, they, they put an end to that, but that's when I remember thinking, oh, wow. You know, they wouldn't have said this if I were a boy. Um, so that's extended family. Um, my family actually did the same thing really to hear coming here. And then

01:19:54.180 - 01:20:12.200

when I went traveling last summer, where did you go? Just around Europe? So, everywhere hasn't changed as much as it ought to. Yeah. So, I think that's, um, and then also, you know, once I finished college or even before that, you know, when are you getting

01:20:12.209 - 01:20:28.330

married and, you know, trying to set me up, um, with various eligible young men, you know, I met people, I met a guy and Canada, that aunt arranged someone and then there was a guy who drove all the way from Ohio to Princeton to meet with

01:20:28.339 - 01:20:42.520

me. Um And I was happy to meet, but, you know, they wanted an answer immediately and I said I can't decide on the basis of even, you know, six hours of walking around Princeton with you. So that didn't go down too well. But, you know, so

01:20:42.529 - 01:21:04.549

there were attempts and I went along with it for as long as I could. And I said, not happening. So then you met your husband in grad school in Princeton. He was in history. I was in political science and uh and I, we had a 94

01:21:05.439 - 01:21:21.620

and then he went away to do research in Istanbul and Lebanon. So we ended up commuting even then that's why the whole idea of commuting afterwards wasn't so scary. And then I, and then we got married and I went off to do field work in Bangladesh.

01:21:21.629 - 01:21:45.430

So I was gone for several months. So we had a lot of this um you know, sort of separations very early in the relationship. I got married in 95 still in grad school. Mhm uh Would you say that your race or immigrant status has significantly influenced

01:21:45.439 - 01:22:14.120

your life in the US? No, no, I don't think so. The only thing I've done um recently is become involved in this interfaith. Women's great. That's, that's the only thing I'm coming up. Ok. So that's about it. Um, because I think also because we were part

01:22:14.129 - 01:22:30.209

of, you know, I was always in an embassy and my father, I always got the impression from him that he was, he felt beleaguered by the different local Bangladeshi associations and no matter how large the community they seem to have splintered into many factions. So he

01:22:30.220 - 01:22:45.459

would always stay a part of from them. Right. So he would have huge part 300 people coming for, you know, various holidays, whether Independence Day or at the end of Ramadan, et cetera. But my father would never, would be very careful enough to show partiality to

01:22:45.470 - 01:23:01.370

one organ, one Bangladeshi group over another because he's, you know, as ambassador and a diplomat, I, I don't need to be involved in local organizations. So that's so I think even though now I'm not in an embassy, I am a sort of an ordinary Bangladeshi American.

01:23:01.379 - 01:23:14.709

I've never used that term, but here I am, I've never wanted to become involved with any of the organizations and there are two or three in Houston. I don't know how large the Bangladeshi population is in Houston, but there are two or three organizations. So I've

01:23:14.720 - 01:23:34.750

stayed away from that kind of um sort of organized activity generally and I keep thinking it's because of, you know, the embassy background. But then, um so, so what uh drew you so strongly to the interfaith group? I think is, it had an educational element to

01:23:34.759 - 01:23:51.660

it. So I got an email from, um the two co-founders. It was August. It was a year before that, less than a year before that. I think. So, the fall before that they said, you know, we, uh, one of them had just um attended an interfaith

01:23:51.669 - 01:24:08.000

women's sere for a Passover that had been going on for 11, 12 years at that point. And it's only women and they bring in women from different communities and they, you know, share the Passover meal together. And she was very inspired. She's been very young Iranian

01:24:08.009 - 01:24:24.850

um excuse me, Iranian American lawyer, this young woman, she's a writer now. So she wouldn't want to be described as a lawyer. She sort of basically walked, you know, gradually um left behind her law practice to focus on her writing. So she said we should do

01:24:24.859 - 01:24:37.339

this and this was fall. And so they got in touch with me because the other woman, she's a graduate student in Canada. I had met with her and she, I had invited her to many events at Rice. So she reached out to me and she said,

01:24:37.350 - 01:24:49.370

would you like to be involved? And do you know other people in town who might be involved? So I helped them get started and then in the end, they want to. So the idea was to, you know, help break stereotypes about Muslim women by which is

01:24:49.379 - 01:25:02.939

what I do in my classes. So I thought, ok, you know, I can do that. But really, in a year you're going to organize this because, you know, I have no such capacity, our talent and they did, we had 200 people uh at Christchurch Cathedral downtown

01:25:02.950 - 01:25:17.339

by the following August for the star um event. And I was the sort of main speaker of sorts. I spoke in the cathedral before it was sunset and then we went and, you know, had broke up into little tables and there were a couple of Muslim

01:25:17.350 - 01:25:30.120

women at each table. And the idea was that all the other women at the table would be non Muslims. But many Muslims snuck in because they were curious about the event. Um, and it was a great success. And then now we're doing, there's going to be

01:25:30.129 - 01:25:46.750

a second annual one this August. And then this month we've organized. It was my idea. I, I forget how, but, oh, I think I was inspired by the Amazing Fates dinners. Do you know about these? The center came up with these? So basically you invite strangers

01:25:46.759 - 01:26:01.930

or strangers sign up to go to a home. And the idea is that because you're a guest in someone's home, you'll have conversation in a respectful way. So this month, it's also Women's history month. Every sat, there was one last Saturday, this Saturday, a friend and

01:26:01.939 - 01:26:17.399

I are co-hosted a dinner where, you know, eight or 10 strangers will come to my friend's house. We decided to do it at her house. Um, and, you know, it'll be a, a more intimate version of the cathedral event. So they'll, they'll come and we'll, you

01:26:17.410 - 01:26:34.299

know, we'll make some sort of usual dinner food and we'll talk. Um, so, so, you know, it's, uh, it's not religious, religious but it's about, you know, being Muslim, we're all Muslim in very different ways. Some of us cover some of us stoned, some of us,

01:26:34.310 - 01:26:46.029

you know, I think, don't even believe in some ways but have a sort of cultural identity as a Muslim. So, there are all sorts of women and it's been fun to meet all these non rice women. You hear me? Right. I mean, I, I have a

01:26:46.040 - 01:26:58.020

lot of good friends on campus but it just opened it up. I think it was also maybe just the right time in my life. You know, my daughter was old enough that, you know, I wasn't constantly carrying her and having to deal with her. She's four

01:26:58.029 - 01:27:19.509

now. So it, it just came along. It's a, it's a fun group of professional women. Um, and, uh, had this educational component. So it made fun. I made, you know, made sense to me. Yeah, it's been, it's been good. Um, well, it's about, um, an hour

01:27:19.520 - 01:27:42.620

and a half. So, do you have any, um, concluding thoughts to be very vague? And, um, I think you're right. You know what you said at the beginning, I haven't, I mean, II I teach this stuff and the comparison you drew about the African American experience

01:27:42.629 - 01:27:55.339

about, versus the Asian American experience and Indian Americans or South Asian Americans. So many of them came in under sort of the bright and talented visa thing. I mean, I didn't come in that way. I came in on an F one student visa and then, you

01:27:55.350 - 01:28:08.870

know, changed it as I got married and got a job. Um So I think the experiences are very different, but I know there's a lot of diversity even within the Asian American experience, obviously. And you just go out to Chinatown or any of the restaurants, you'll

01:28:08.879 - 01:28:27.479

find a whole um class of people who wouldn't be willing to speak up. So, um but we're hoping that these archives will get at all of these different experiences eventually. Um I don't know, is there anything else you wanted to ask me? Um I, I think

01:28:27.490 - 01:28:32.600

I covered most of it. Ok. Ok, good. Thank you. Thank you.