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My name is Tian-tian He. And my name is Xingyi Li. And we're here on June

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15th, 2017 in the Buckingham in Eleanor der Bing's apartment to interview for the Houston

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Asian American Archive. So, can you please state your name and when and where you were born? My name is Eleanor der Bing.

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I was born in Sacramento, California 90 years ago. What's you maiden name? My maiden name is Qian as the paper name. My real Chinese name is Lew, L-E-W. Did you have a Chinese name?

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Yes. What was it? You want me to say it in Chinese? Yeah Lew Fong Gang. Oh, so can you describe where you

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grew up? Well I grew up in Sacramento, California like I said 90 years ago. And because of the Chinese exclusion, my mother did not come to the United States until she was 40 years old and

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she came by Angel Island and of course they were interrogated. I don't know how she had got through but she got through and I was born when she was 44 years old. She has bound feet, did

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not speak English. My brother is 17 years older than I, and he was born in China. Where did they come from? From China? Um, Canton. So did your father come earlier?

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Yes, but he died when I was 2 years old. So I don't know that much about him, but he came and I noticed that I was writing an autobiography of myself and it was just three years ago

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I found out that he was adopted. I did not know that he was adopted. But he came to United States and I guess his family was really rich and sent him over here. He is educated because he

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had beautiful Chinese writing, I have seen that. And he was the, um in a gambling place he always wear suits and he takes care of the debts owned by the people who gambled there; and he

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has books with names, how much they own in Chinese I remember seeing them. Yeah it's like the old fashioned Chinese calculator? The Abacus? The abacus, yeah. So, what kind of neighborhood

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did you grow up in? Um, well. Have you ever heard of lunch key kids? Yes. I was one of them.

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My mother had to go to work and when she leaves for work she would say well that was before then, she would leave me with somebody in a grocery store and I would sit there and

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they told me I just sat there and they feed me until I was like three or four years old. And she would wore key around my neck and sent me to one of the neighbor's house and I

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stayed there all day till she comes home. They were working at [inaudible] country there, in Sacramento. And all the ladies, Chinese ladies, they all lived together, they can't live anywhere

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else out of discrimination there. So it's almost like living in a fish pool, everybody knows everybody. So, I lived in the neighborhood which was all Chinese and we know everybody. And there's some Japanese and hardly any black or Spanish, just

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mostly Chinese and a sprinkling of Japanese. And they do have a Chinese school and I attend Chinese school. I went up to Chu Zhong You, you know what that is, up to the seventh grade. Okay. Um can you say that again?

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I think she said Chu Zhong. Chu zhong yeu. The seventh grade. Oh the seventh grade.

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Okay. Yeah I went up there and then I refused to go because I was going to school at the same time. And I have to attend everyday five to eight and Saturday nine to one. To school? To Chinese school, in addition to going to, you know,

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primary school. So all the Chinese ladies, were they canners ,or? Yeah they are canners. Asparagus, tomato, fruits, certain type.

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And they wore their uniform, white uniform and everything. It was like a family. How did your mom go to work with bound feet? She just slowly walked there with the bound feet.

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And every time we go anywhere I give her ahead half an hour start and I will catch up with her. It's ugly when I see her feet bound, all squished up, it was terrible.

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And she had to put lots and lots of cottons in the shoes that she buy. And she has to walk with just her heels, one foot at a time. So she kept them bound? Hum? So she kept them bound for her whole life?

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It was bound when I saw it. She was bound when she was a baby from what I understand and then they unbound it after a while when her feet is, well, I would say about four inches

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length and all squished up. Um, so you spoke to your mom in Chinese? Or Cantonese? Yes, I can speak Chinese before I can speak English.

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In fact, they didn't know that I started go to school when I was five years old. And I was a little bit late starting kindergarten because my brother was working and my mother was working at can making.

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So they didn't know the system there so one of our neighbor said she is old enough to go to school, my brother took me to school and when I went to that kindergarten, the teacher could not pronounce my

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Chinese name. So therefore she said every time I called Eleanor, you come, and that is your name. That's who named me. Her name was Miss Aetna, in kindergarten.

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Wow, you still remember her name. Oh yes I do remember her name. I remember even what she looks like. Were there any Chinese kids go to your school?

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Oh the school is nothing but Asians. The neighborhood that I lived as I said, we're restricted to a certain area. So we couldn't go out like that.

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So all the kids in class are, I would say, half Chinese and half Japanese with one black and two Spanish. But the whole class was Chinese and Japanese.

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Did you know all of the other Asian ladies in the area. Was it really tightened in? Like I said, it's like living in a fish pool.

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Everybody knows everybody, everybody's' business. Were you allowed to go outside of the place where we were living? Oh you can go anywhere. But I notice that after World

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War II, some of the friends that I know, they go to certain restaurants or anything, they are not served because they are not allowed to go there. And there is a lot of discrimination there.

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We lived with, I lived with it. I know where I am not supposed to go, where I am not supposed to, you know, do anything. We just stayed in our areas, we're happy.

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So you were born in 1927? Yes. Do you remember the Depression? Oh yes. I remember going to a truck and buy a loaf of bread for 10 cents, or something

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like that. Did your family struggle during the Depression? Oh yes. Everybody struggled, everybody struggled. And we watched every penny,

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in fact, during the depression year, I didn't have lunch money. I am hungry, but I will wait till I get home. But that's life. So you just skipped lunch?

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Well, I don't have any money. [laugh] So, they didn't fix me lunch to go to school, so, I just don't have lunch. Wow, do you think like Asians fare differently with other races during the depression?

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I think the other races have more than we do and then I don't think my mother understand some of the privilege that you can get because they don't understand the system in the United

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States. So they think that you can only get what you can pay for. And so since we have only asparagus and tomatoes, so guess what we have for dinner every night? Asparagus or rice,

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cooked in different ways. Did you get to eat Chinese food? We eat Chinese food everyday. We don't eat American food. I think the reason why I am healthy now is because during the World War II there is a manpower shortage.

00:12:04.920 - 00:12:19.390

And when we go to school, we only have to take two subjects, a study period and we go to work. And so I went to work at a Chinese restaurant. So when you go to Chinese restaurant, most of my girlfriends go

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there to work so we had a lot of fun working together. So we leave school around two o'clock and then go to work. So when I go to restaurant, I get to drink milk, I get to have potatoes, I get a

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meal. So I got healthy food. I think if I didn't get all that nourish food, I don't know whether I will be healthy like I am now.

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I worked there during the WW2, and they get 100 dollars a month, that's a lot of money with tips and pay and everything. Do you remember your first part-time job?

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Huh? Do you remember your first job? Yes I do, I was going to school, college. Sacramento college. And I pass by the sign of tests being given by the state of California retiring system.

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So I went into my school books and everything, so I took the test and I scored 99.5% and they want me to go to work right away. So I went to work for retirement system, I didn't even go back to college.

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[All laugh] And I got paid 90 dollars a month. That's a lot of money then, you know. When I worked there, they noticed

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that when I typed the records, every time I typed, I don't have a single mistake and they were astound by that, so I got raised pretty fast. I started with junior and then intermediate and then senior. So I got to intermediate within 6 months,

00:14:02.220 - 00:14:20.870

that's pretty good. That's means you have a higher pay. And I work in the retirement system, I keep records of all of the employees. I really like to go backwards, could you describe like your

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education ever since kindergarten? My education? Yeah. Well, I didn't finish college like I said I went to work for the State of California and when

00:14:31.800 - 00:14:45.330

I was working at the state of California, I got married. And when I got married, my husband decided...my mother-in-law decided we have to go back to North Virginia because she had a restaurant to run and she need her son to run it.

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So we move back to Virginia. The restaurant went bankrupted and here we were, I have three kids and no job and my husband went to work

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for Ustus [inaudible company name] and the [inaudible company name] shop as civil servant, since he's a resident, he got preference. So I went to work for the Naval Base. In North of Virginia, that naval base is the largest in the world.

00:15:19.360 - 00:15:37.260

So I got into the procurement department where we buy things for all the ships that coming down. And so then on, every work that I work for the government is always in procurement office and that's when

00:15:38.210 - 00:15:52.930

NASA came in. When I was working in the naval base, my husband said he got offered a job by the space task group. I've never heard of an astronaut, I've never heard of going to moon or anything. Do you remember around what year that was?

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What year? Yeah. We came to Houston in 1961 that my daughter when they went to summer camp, the astronauts' kids also went to the same camp.

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They didn't know what their fathers did or anything that they're just kids and they said "my father is going to moon.", they thought that they were crazy. So anyway, when we were...my husband decides to work for NASA, I also applied for a

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job for NASA. And I got into procurement. And so they moved us to Houston in 1961. So we all drove. I drove one car.

00:16:38.780 - 00:16:50.870

My husband drove one car. We go across the country from Virginia to Houston. And we were scattered all over Houston when we came in 1961 because they didn't

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have a building or anything and they had us working at Allen's Air Force Space. Can you go way back to your childhood again.

00:17:07.950 - 00:17:22.660

Okay. So did your mom try to assimilate into American culture? No. Cause you were in that communities? No because most of the ladies she socialized with are just like

00:17:22.710 - 00:17:39.060

her. You know, bound feet, speak Chinese, adhere to all the Chinese holidays, they don't celebrate Christmas. Mostly Chinese New Year and you know all the dates.

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I remember that. I remember that they believe in the day when they have to go to cemetery, I would have to carry all the food she cooked that day, we would bring it up there, and she talked to her husband and

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tell about everything that happened the whole year. Then we bring the food back home and eat it. You know that huh? Yeah. Well she believe in that, I did that for a long

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time. So that like when you went to college, were you...you left that kind of community? No. We have to stay there, there's still discrimination then. Oh, okay. The Chinese exclusion was not um let's

00:18:26.900 - 00:18:39.890

see...After World War II before they change it. There's still the discrimination. We still have to live in that same neighborhood. And I hate it

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because the bathrooms were terrible, and it was not, to me, I wanted to get away. What job did you want to have as a kid?

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Pardon? What job did you want to have as kid? I don't care, as long as it makes money. [laugh] But I've always working for the government for the simple reason that I feel that with the government, you don't make much

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but you have to look at the long term benefit. So I was trying to tell that to my kids, they didn't believe in it. Now none of them have pension. And I'm okay.

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I'm taking care of them till the day I die. Even though I didn't make that much money but you know. Yeah. Um...what were the attitude towards Asians over there?

00:19:46.340 - 00:20:04.030

In Houston? Just anywhere that you...? Well, the worst is in Sacramento. I went to Walgreen to try to buy something. And that girl waits on everybody before she came to me and I

00:20:04.150 - 00:20:15.860

complained to the manager. I say "you don't want Asian to work, to come here to buy things, just putt a sign outside". That's what I told them. I was very brave, you know.

00:20:16.480 - 00:20:36.550

I was outspoken. Because I was outspoken, when I worked for NASA, they called me the Dragon Lady and they also make me the um... let's see...they assigned

00:20:36.550 - 00:20:50.770

me other job that I take care of other people that feel like they're discriminated against. EEO, equal opportunity counselor, I was one of them when I was working in NASA.

00:20:55.460 - 00:21:08.100

The way I feel about it, I tell that like it is. I get mad and think it's unfair and I'll tell them. And I feel like if they fire me, that's okay, I have husband that support me so I won't worry about it.

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[all laugh] Um. And there's one story I've always... My husband is very involved in toastmasters, you know what is. Yeah. Okay.

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For years and years, I was always accompanied to toastmasters. So I have to join that time. This is one story that I always tell people like FOB like you

00:21:34.150 - 00:21:46.610

and when they come to toastmaster and would say I have to make a presentation next week, so they think they come to one meeting and they can do the presentation. And we always shake our head and say

00:21:46.770 - 00:22:04.970

"oh gosh" and I told them that the reason that I got promoted is that they had three openings. Three openings for contract specialist in procurement. That's a GS7, that's on the way up.

00:22:05.230 - 00:22:23.310

Once you get the GS7, you can go up to 9, 11, 12. And one of the selection we made is the select official was his secretary and this is how that she get the job. She has no experience, never get

00:22:23.500 - 00:22:37.750

procurement before, and someone says well because she looks like his wife. So I was like that's unfair. So I took a chance. I didn't get mad. I just went from my section chief to my branch chief

00:22:38.040 - 00:22:51.080

finally to the director. I just looked at him and said mister what's that? There was a promotion lately and I didn't get it and I'm wondering I did this and I did that, what else do I need to do?

00:22:51.980 - 00:23:03.950

I said did all the things that suits for that job. And he looked at me, this is what he said, "I made a mistake, and you will get promoted". And I did get promoted within a week.

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When I came back and told the guy, they think that because I'm a female I got that promotion. But after that, I got promoted every year to GS.

00:23:18.990 - 00:23:33.410

When I left NASA, I was a GS13. So I think if I stayed, I will make it higher but I don't know. But my husband retired and I retired at the same time. But um one of

00:23:33.410 - 00:23:50.860

the person, director, I was negotiating with Boeing. And after...the middle of the negotiation, we left for lunch and he came to me, he said "Eleanor, when you were the

00:23:50.860 - 00:24:04.480

negotiating person that's in charge of this contract, I didn't know that you could do anything, you don't show any emotion or anything and just don't say anything.

00:24:05.070 - 00:24:18.580

When we got to the negotiating table, I am impressed" because you know, we get what we want, and we didn't give them a lot of fees or anything. I told them why they can't get that fee.

00:24:19.220 - 00:24:35.650

I was prepared and I said that and I had a team there. When you were negotiating with NASA, you have a person that's getting a contract and his assistant and my team would note that the negotiators would help me with all

00:24:36.480 - 00:24:50.320

the information I need to do. So when I faced them, I told them this is what you will get, and this is why you should get this, and that's it, you think about it, and we walk away, and then come back later.

00:24:51.290 - 00:25:07.310

So anyway the thing that is we went to lunch, the person that got the contract, and he always go to a lunch room where all of the top officials,

00:25:07.950 - 00:25:29.330

all top in NASA, so he told them that:" I'm so impressed with what she did." So since then, if there is a promotion going, I get it. [laugh] And one time, I gave a low fee to one of the contractors.

00:25:29.740 - 00:25:39.770

He actually went up to the director and cry. I thought that was half an hour that's what I heard. And the director called me "Eleanor, give him half of percent more fee".

00:25:39.840 - 00:25:50.800

[laugh] I said that it's my money. You know we were spending the taxes that we paid. So that's why they called me the Dragon Lady because I feel like fair is fair,

00:25:51.790 - 00:26:08.700

and NASA sometimes gives away a lot of things that I think and spent that they shouldn't. And so I felt like they are not gonna get it from me. How did you think that you got to be such a tough negotiator?

00:26:08.700 - 00:26:25.060

Um...Because I'm a type A person. And um... I don't use the word pushy.

00:26:25.740 - 00:26:45.810

They are very um... what is the adjective for that? Assertive? Yeah that's it, assertive, very assertive. And I attended a class, offered by OCA. Of course they didn't teach me too much that most Asian ladies are not assertive.

00:26:46.910 - 00:27:01.720

They sit back because it's not in their culture to be assertive because it's not, it's uncouth. So when I was a EEO counselor, there was one Chinese girl that did not get promoted.

00:27:02.890 - 00:27:20.690

And she was a mathematician. And she came to me crying and said everybody around her got promoted and so I investigated her case. And I talked to her manager and she said "Well, she sat there and she seems like

00:27:20.690 - 00:27:32.970

she's satisfied, she didn't say anything. She just sit there and do her work". So I told her Josephine, I said, "You gotta be more assertive and if you are not satisfied with your work, you should speak

00:27:32.970 - 00:27:46.520

up" and I said, "just because your culture said if you are assertive, you are uncouth, forget it, speak up. " You know Josephine retired and she's so active.

00:27:48.160 - 00:28:07.430

Oh maybe I shouldn't say her name. Anyway she plans all the program, and she changed like 90 degrees and turned all of her. She learned that just because you are Asian and you are

00:28:07.700 - 00:28:23.420

girl, assertive doesn't mean that you are uncouth. That's not bad manner. But I attend the class that's offer OCA and um i forgot the lady that gave that course, she lives in Baltimore.

00:28:24.930 - 00:28:35.310

And she turned out to be one president, she was a president of OCA. You know what OCA is? No. Organization of Chinese American.

00:28:35.670 - 00:28:59.800

It's just like NACP. WACP? Yeah and this is Chinese and I convinced NASA that that is the a legitimate. Every time they have a convention, I get to go at their expense. Well, because they got

00:28:59.800 - 00:29:10.530

one for black, they got one for Indian, they got one for Spanish. And OCA represents the Chinese, that's what I told them. And we're minority. So every time they have conventions,

00:29:11.410 - 00:29:23.610

different cities every time. They have in San Francisco, in Philadelphia, they have in Boston every year they have it. So they send me. I met a lot of interesting people.

00:29:27.170 - 00:29:38.660

Let's see, I met Elaine Chao, she was a member of OCA. And there's another person, she was the ambassador in Nepal. I forgot her name now.

00:29:39.620 - 00:29:54.550

She was a member of OCA, I met them. So I'm noticing this Hidden Figures book, did you know like the women in the book at

00:29:54.670 - 00:30:07.360

NASA? Well I know that they exist but we were never involved because we were considered white. Oh, really? Yeah. We don't have to go to a colored restroom.

00:30:08.770 - 00:30:18.790

In fact, I've never seen one. Oh, interesting. [laugh] That's when I got the book I didn't know they wrote a book about it, Hidden Figures. You heard about it.

00:30:18.850 - 00:30:35.820

Hidden Figure, yeah. Yeah. It's like the movie. In fact, I think that was over when I worked at NASA because one of my co-negotiator is black. She goes everywhere with me.

00:30:36.060 - 00:30:51.870

She goes to restroom with me so I don't think she's a hidden figure. I think that's the very beginning, 1961 around that area when...I didn't notice that.

00:30:54.830 - 00:31:13.390

Were you the only Asian at the procurement team at NASA by that time? Yes. Only Asian. Is there a large women proportion in that team or

00:31:13.900 - 00:31:26.620

like? They're mostly men, in the position that I held. I was a section chief. So have you ever experienced any discrimination? Huh? So have you ever experienced any discrimination

00:31:31.850 - 00:31:54.460

in NASA because you are a minority? No. No, like I said. They don't. My husband faces a lot of discrimination, in fact, he had filed a discrimination complaint and he won.

00:31:55.670 - 00:32:11.780

His pay was um, they um... Anyway, they promoted him and they made all the back payment.

00:32:12.620 - 00:32:25.140

But you know, even though he won the discrimination case, what is it, you won a war but lost a battle? You know, even though you win, this is sort of, um.

00:32:25.140 - 00:32:42.210

It's just that one time? Huh? It was like a one time thing that he won that? Yeah. Oh, going back to your first job, I read you had a

00:32:42.240 - 00:32:54.950

biography on the internet. I read that you worked in a cannery? Oh yeah that's when during World War II, yeah. We had manpower shortage and I

00:32:57.760 - 00:33:15.870

worked in the cannery. We canned peaches, we canned tomatoes, and there's the whole bunch of, not just me, all the kids that go to school with me. We were helping with the war effort.

00:33:16.140 - 00:33:31.360

Yeah. So that was when that was when like all the men were away so they had to bring in women to work? No, they had the...Well, manpower shortage all the guys went to war and

00:33:33.290 - 00:33:49.710

we are all from high school and we go to work. Oh. Not all women but men too. Some kids. That's not...you know they didn't draft them yet. Yeah. I remember when they have

00:33:50.420 - 00:34:04.390

the...what is it, you don't have sugar, you don't have.. and I can't get a pair of shoes, so I had to buy a pair of green shoes because that's only ticket that I have and I had to get a pair of shoes.

00:34:05.580 - 00:34:21.160

Wait in line to buy shoes. I remember being a drum corp, I got picture on my. I was in a Chinese school, Zhong hua, you know what Zhong hua is?

00:34:21.310 - 00:34:34.940

Zhong hua. Yeah. I belonged to [inaudible Cantonese] and I was in front role. We march up and down the west coast telling them, the United States was not at war then, telling them to

00:34:34.980 - 00:34:47.220

boycott Japan. Don't sell metal to them and so force. So we were a marching band about [inaudible Cantonese]. I got picture like I said.

00:34:49.690 - 00:35:01.340

Were there Japanese people in the band? Oh no, they were sent away to camp. Most of my classmate were sent away to camp. Did you have friends that were?

00:35:01.340 - 00:35:11.010

Or anyone that's close that were... Oh yeah they are my classmates. Half of them. You know half of them were Japanese and half were Chinese in my class.

00:35:11.590 - 00:35:24.660

So they were all sent away when we were in 9th grade. I felt so sorry for them. And l lived right at there. They had to sell everything they have and just carry a

00:35:24.660 - 00:35:33.780

suitcase and a pillow. And can you imagine having your house and that's all you can take. And you have to sell everything. I bought a bicycle for one dollar.

00:35:35.400 - 00:35:48.130

I mean they sell apartment house for 2,000 dollars, but my mother didn't buy it. She said we're going to go back to China, we don't have to buy anything. I wish she had bought some of the real estates

00:35:48.910 - 00:36:04.710

but the Japanese were taken advantage of because like I said, how can you get rid of all your asset in about two or three weeks and just carry a suitcase, all your belonging.

00:36:08.430 - 00:36:24.310

Were you able to communicate with them, your friends? Some of them wrote to me. Because they couldn't do certain things, they sent a check and told me to write to buy it for them and mail it for them. They have a reunion every year

00:36:27.900 - 00:36:43.370

at the same time. We have a reunion of the elementary school that we went to, so I see them going to the reunion. Oh okay. But I feel sorry. Some of them are really smart, if they

00:36:43.370 - 00:36:57.790

were allowed to stay, they would have make something of themselves. But they couldn't finish school and was sent away to camp. But after they got out of camp, they were allowed

00:36:58.600 - 00:37:11.180

to get back to school either? No they were going to school at the camp. So there were like, I don't know, four years? So they were like going to public school like we were.

00:37:12.430 - 00:37:31.550

And getting all the education that we are getting. Okay. So how did you meet your husband? One of my girlfriends came over and introduce me to him.

00:37:32.080 - 00:37:42.010

He wanted to meet me. TH; Okay, and where's he from? Huh? Where's he from? He is from North Virginia. So how did he hear? Huh?

00:37:42.140 - 00:37:57.490

How did he hear about you? My girlfriend's mother and his mother are good friends and almost like sister.

00:37:57.990 - 00:38:08.270

So when he got out from service. He lived in North of Virginia, hardly any Chinese here. So he decided to go

00:38:08.440 - 00:38:24.840

to school on GI, the GI bill, in Sacramento. So he went to college there and since the mother know each other. So you know, they sort of took care of him and told him what he's gonna do.

00:38:25.270 - 00:38:41.260

So he um... I'll tell you what happened. He had the first date with me. When he went to first date with me. He asked me for the October date, November date, December

00:38:41.310 - 00:38:52.330

date, Christmas dance, New Year. [Laugh] When he asked you that, you cannot accept anybody else's date. You don't go with him or don't go at all.

00:38:53.080 - 00:39:09.210

So he got me all tied up. [laugh] So I got to know him very well. You see, look at the picture in the bedroom, he's quite a handsome man. At that time, were

00:39:10.240 - 00:39:25.670

you eager to accept? What's that? Were you eager to accept all the dates? No because I want to meet some other people too because I met some other guys that you

00:39:25.670 - 00:39:40.300

know I dated and I liked to date some more. How did dating work back then? Pardon? How did dating work? Dating? Yeah. Well, what do you mean how dating?

00:39:41.710 - 00:39:53.190

They take you to a movie. When they can afford, they take you to a movie, dinner after that, that's it. So it's the same process.

00:39:54.570 - 00:40:04.210

Yeah, except for like social media. He was a poor student. He didn't have a car so we walked everywhere. It's amazing now

00:40:04.210 - 00:40:20.090

that I think about it. We walked miles and I, I'm not even tired. But we just walked and walked, you know. Um-- And he works at a post office to earn extra money because on a GI, I think he

00:40:20.090 - 00:40:30.670

only gets like, 90 dollars a month. I, I think that's what he gets. So you were 18 by then? Yes. Uh, were you working or at college?

00:40:31.550 - 00:40:44.930

No, I was working for the State of California. Oh, yeah. I was making money--in fact, when we got married, I paid for my own wedding. Wow. Wow. When did you get married? Huh? When did you get married?

00:40:45.340 - 00:41:00.020

When did I get married? Yeah. June, June 20th. 1946. So that's when you were 20? Yes, around 19. Oh, okay. 19. And then--

00:41:00.570 - 00:41:18.040

See, that--those days, after the war, lot of the guys come back--see, we grew up fast. Because during the World War II, we were doing things that we would have done more, twenties. So but then because of the war, we were

00:41:18.100 - 00:41:34.130

working, we're doing things that... we should have done in adult life. We grew up fast. Yeah. So, we were--I was told, and I heard, and I think that--lot of guys said,

00:41:34.870 - 00:41:51.190

when you attend college, and if you don't have a boyfriend by your junior year, or senior year, then nobody wants you. [all laugh] That... most of girls should be taken by, when you're a freshman or sophomore.

00:41:52.370 - 00:42:00.500

And after that, you don't have a steady date, then something's wrong with you. That's what I heard. [laughs] Was it different for guys? Huh? A different age for guys?

00:42:01.500 - 00:42:18.070

Uh, no, I don't hear anything about that. [laugh] Oh, uh, so after you got married, like what did you do? After I got married, I still work for the State of California,

00:42:18.250 - 00:42:31.380

and he was going to school, and I n--when he asked (?)--but then the only thing is that we had a baby, uh, he was born 1947. July- -June--July.

00:42:32.150 - 00:42:47.490

July 30th. And I was still working, and I sent--I put him in a nursery, to take care of him, and I get him, I get him on weekends. Then, then my husband's mother called and said she

00:42:47.490 - 00:43:02.970

needed him home, and that uh, you saw my bio--and so, I left my mother there, and sold everything, and went back. But lo and behold, she told that to the other sons too, the other two

00:43:02.970 - 00:43:14.970

sons, and they look at us and we look at them, and she didn't need any help. She still was running the restaurant. And so, so I, so you know we couldn't come back, we didn't have the money, so

00:43:14.970 - 00:43:30.810

we decided open a restaurant, we'll call it Der Bing's Chinese Kitchen. Take-out thing. Oh, well after three--and then, it was hard work for me because I have to help, I was chopping onions, celery, the way they make chow mein over there was, there's onion,

00:43:31.640 - 00:43:41.780

Bermuda onions. And pot (?) of noodles, stuff like that. And then, uh, he hired a cook, and so we just have, just take-out food.

00:43:42.350 - 00:43:52.690

Big restaurant but nothing in it, with just the kitchen. And after two years I think, we went bankrupt, 'cause I, I couldn't handle it. You know, we're-- Were you the only cook?

00:43:53.350 - 00:44:06.970

Huh? Were you the only cook? I didn't cook at all. Bill did the cooking, and the cook. I did the cashier, I took orders, up front. But then with the kids, and me, you know, working up front,

00:44:07.850 - 00:44:20.900

it--and then, and then when found out that we had, we were doing good having (?) a Chinese kitchen, delivering the food, and just taking [unintelligible], other restaurants did it too. And they delivered it free, they said,

00:44:21.230 - 00:44:34.370

and it, I mean, they just make it hard on us because they tried to compete, and they tried to give away things. So that's why we, we couldn't do it. So you delivered by car?

00:44:35.240 - 00:44:48.680

No, we hired a boy, that rode--had motorcycle. Wow, that's so cool! High school, high school kid. And they delivered. And we paid them, you know, by the hour. And they, they're glad to do it.

00:44:48.810 - 00:45:03.470

So, when and why did you, uh, have--did you decide to move to Houston? Why did we decide to move to Houston? Yeah, and when did you move to Houston? That's because after we um, after we, uh, lost

00:45:05.300 - 00:45:19.250

that business, I told Bill, I'm gonna--I wanna go home. And so then he say he will take me back home. So that's when he got the job, the, the army, then find out about NASA, then he, then he applied for the job with

00:45:19.250 - 00:45:32.320

NASA, and got a job, and I also applied. He said, "I'll get you halfway there." That's why we're in Houston. And so after we got here, you know, he, he has a good job and I have a

00:45:32.320 - 00:45:45.850

good job. Bill's job is very, very interesting. He travel with the astronaut on Air Force One, [unintelligible]. That, the three astronauts that went to the moon, uh, one of them that went--the three, um,

00:45:46.740 - 00:46:05.820

Armstrong, whatever- -he travel--they had a, a goodwill tour, and President--I forgot which president, Johnson I think-- um, had them make a goodwill tour with the, go to all the head of the country in Europe.

00:46:06.390 - 00:46:23.810

So Bill met the Pope, the Queen, and the Shah, and everything. 'Cause that, you know they were the star, the three astronauts. So they traveled on Air Force One, I said (?), so he's gone like, he go to each--one country every two days, he would go to one country.

00:46:24.140 - 00:46:38.110

And he takes care of uh, telling different (?) protocol, 'cause he like a protocol officer. And he, and he gets gifts for them and uh, and take care all what the ast--what, when you get there, what you should do, and all

00:46:46.350 - 00:47:00.230

that. Um, so, did you have any more kids in Houston? No, I just have two daughters and one son. Oh, so you had them... Back in Norfolk? Pardon?

00:47:00.510 - 00:47:17.160

So you had them back in Norfolk? Uh, I had Junior in Sacramento. And Debbie and Dinah (?) born in Norfolk. Okay, I see. So, uh, were your, uh, original family still in Sacramento?

00:47:18.070 - 00:47:34.860

Pardon? Uh, your family, your mom and brother, were they just staying-- Uh, my mother died when I was in Norfolk, I couldn't get, couldn't get back to Hou--uh, back to Sacramento. Even to attend her funeral, 'cause my mother--mother-in-law didn't even

00:47:34.860 - 00:47:51.100

come by 'cause she knew I was gonna ask her to take care of the kids. So I didn't go back to her funeral. I didn't have a nice mother-in-law. Was she a very traditional Chinese--

00:47:51.730 - 00:48:06.680

No, she was, uh, went to school in Hawaii (?), her family was rich, where as--each kid had their own servant. So when she got married to Bill's father, she felt like she married beneath her.

00:48:07.510 - 00:48:23.100

And so she's always complaining. And so I, when I got married to Bill, some of the um, some of the people, the girl--um, the, the girls there, like my age, would tell me, "Your mother-in-law,

00:48:24.200 - 00:48:39.720

uh, treats her kids like, these are my kids, do not touch." And she's always dressing them up, you know, better than others, and she's the only lady, mother, or wife there that has a car, that can

00:48:39.720 - 00:48:57.390

drive, and she smokes, too. And her father built a house out in the country for her and she wrote me a letter and told me that her--she had a miserable 20-year marriage life. She's a strange

00:48:57.420 - 00:49:16.330

woman. Um, then when you were raising your kids, how much did you want to pass on Chinese culture versus American culture? Uh, nothing. Because there's--we never lived with any mon--any Chinese.

00:49:16.830 - 00:49:29.870

We always live with neighbors that are Irish, Catholic, and one day Junior told--uh, one of the teachers told me that they asked my son what nationality he is. He say he's Irish.

00:49:29.870 - 00:49:40.550

[laughter] That's what my husband say. We gotta li--leave this place. We gotta go some--so when he got the job with NASA, coming to Houston, well there's, you know,

00:49:41.210 - 00:49:51.760

lotta Chinese there. But my kids always lived with uh, Americans, Caucasians, they don't know the nationality. Until they came to Houston.

00:49:53.080 - 00:50:01.070

Did you teach them Chinese? Huh? Did you teach them Chinese? No, I feel like it's a waste, waste of time. They wouldn't learn it. But then when they go

00:50:01.330 - 00:50:13.680

into college, they took a course in Mandarin. They have courses offered at uh, University of Texas. They can say, xie xie. And different things like that.

00:50:16.000 - 00:50:31.330

[laugh] Um, do you think it's easier to grow up Asian-American nowadays versus when you were a kid? Definitely. Very different (?). You--we, I think we sort of paved the way and, and uh,

00:50:33.790 - 00:50:49.760

took care of all the discrimination and everything. Definitely. And would you identify yourself as American or Chinese-American, or like, what would you identify yourself as?

00:50:49.830 - 00:51:02.960

I identify myself as Chinese-American. I would not leave the Chinese out. Mhm. Has that like changed over the years? Well, I tell you one thing, when China took over Hong Kong,

00:51:04.030 - 00:51:18.500

and every--and seemed like we were revered, and I just feel good about it because all my--my, I was growing up--even at schoolbooks it has Ch--the Chinese with pigtails, and always the

00:51:18.570 - 00:51:28.220

underdog, and something derogatory about them. Any amount (?) of schoolbooks, and I felt really, uh, like I, I was second- class citizen.

00:51:29.540 - 00:51:40.050

So when I th--even though the Communists in China, I feel like it's good for the people, then I'm for it. That's how I feel about it. Even though I'm not a Communist.

00:51:40.330 - 00:51:53.910

But I said well if it's good for the people, then I said, they've been, they've been, uh... I read the history, how they're taken advantage of. You know, the Tea Party, and the Opium War, and all that.

00:51:55.040 - 00:52:15.160

And taken away all the land, even United States. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like now, there was a, we have some power, we have some clout. Um, were you always really involved in, like,

00:52:16.390 - 00:52:31.380

issues of race in the Chinese community? Pardon? You mean, if, if, I involved in--yes, I am. I'm the first lady president, of the Chinese Professional Club, I'm the first lady of the Chinese, the Chinese

00:52:31.530 - 00:52:48.960

Association--of all the Association we have in, in Houston, it's one club. They call it zhong hua (?), uh, something, I forgot the--association of all the Chinese--I was the first lady president of that. And some of the men resent it, but I, but I, took it.

00:52:50.070 - 00:53:01.330

And they made--they, they uh, when Nixon recognized China, they want me to send a letter to Nixon, and protest and so forth, so forth. I said I'm not gonna do it.

00:53:02.420 - 00:53:17.150

And some of them are still, at that time, uh, geared toward Taiwan. I'm nothing against Taiwan. But I figure I'm not gonna be forced to take their side. I say if America wants to go to China, good.

00:53:19.390 - 00:53:39.060

Wait so, when Nixon recognized China, that was like when... he was denying that-- Taiwan's independence? No, they didn't want him to go recognize China. Oh, okay. Because he went to China, they don't--even--they didn't...

00:53:40.750 - 00:53:52.100

they recognize China, as a nation, okay. And lotta people in um, Houston, are, uh, Chiang Kai-Shek, uh--they're zhong--uh,

00:53:52.700 - 00:54:07.930

what is that now? They're... let's see... there's two different China, there's PRC-- Oh, yeah, PRC, and RC. --and RC. Republic of China and China Republic, or something anyway.

00:54:08.680 - 00:54:20.390

So I know there's a difference there. Okay. So this-- Mainland China and Taiwan. Huh? It's like mainland China and like, the older like, uh,

00:54:21.550 - 00:54:30.510

yeah. That's like-- PRC, we--I call y'all PRC and the other one RC. Republic of China and People's Republic of China. There's two different--difference.

00:54:30.760 - 00:54:47.070

And lotta people don't know the difference, PRC and RC. Taiwan government invited us, 'cause I was one of the leader here, they invited me along with the, the other leaders--they, we toured Taiwan, all around.

00:54:47.810 - 00:54:58.860

As the, at their expense. They were, they were good to me. And I can see it, what they did to the country, they did a lot, you know. Making all the progress they have there.

00:54:59.440 - 00:55:12.450

If, if, if they were not there, I don't think they would have all the things that they have now. But, they also took a lot of things from China to Taiwan. I went to the museum.

00:55:12.700 - 00:55:28.160

Yeah. Oh, yeah. They took a lot of things out of there. But then also a lot of things were destroyed in China. Yeah. Huh? A lot of things were destroyed in China, so--it could be a good thing. During the Cultural Revolution, like a lot of antiques were destroyed in mainland China, so

00:55:28.160 - 00:55:43.960

like, the other stuff that was--were taken to Taiwan was reserved. So that's actually like... kind of like-- So you know more about that than I do? [laugh] Yeah.

00:55:44.150 - 00:55:59.970

So, uh, when and how did you get involved with the Chinese community here, in Houston? What? Uh, when and how did you get involved with the Chinese community? Oh, I got inv--I got involved immediately upon when, when Bill and I came to Houston,

00:56:00.360 - 00:56:15.220

because Bill and I do not work on weekends or at night because we don't have a grocery store, we don't have a, a restaurant or anything. So Bill and I used to have to end up, uh, chaperone

00:56:16.070 - 00:56:31.340

the kids. And so I, we have a bowling, uh, alley, uh, team, every Tuesday night. And when I formed it we had 24 teams. And all the kids come, and bowl Tuesday night, uh, [unintelligible], they

00:56:31.760 - 00:56:41.980

call it, uh, [unintelligible] time. So I told them, I said, long as they're in a bowling alley, they're not out there, uh, you know, in crime. So there's hardly any crime.

00:56:42.580 - 00:56:54.410

And any time, when some people come to Houston, they say, you wanna meet the Houston kids, you go to the bowling alley Tuesday night. And that, that's when I w--I was involved with the Chinese-American Citizen

00:56:54.410 - 00:57:09.570

Alliance. I was a woman president there, got involved. Then I was the president of the Chinese Professional Club. Then I got involved in the Chinese Baptist Church, so I was involved a lot, because a lot of the mothers and fathers

00:57:10.730 - 00:57:22.390

work at night. And on weekends. They don't have to involve the kids. Bill and I were one of the professionals that worked Monday, uh, Monday through Friday, had days off.

00:57:22.680 - 00:57:37.950

And our kids were involved, so naturally, we get involved. In fact, um, one of my kids asked me, "Are you going to that party that night?" I said, yes we are. "Then we're not going." Because every time they go to any party, we are there, they

00:57:38.000 - 00:57:49.520

can't do anything. [laugh] But that one time they told me they didn't (?) want us to go, there was a fight. And the fight was with my son and somebody else. And I say good thing I'm there!

00:57:50.390 - 00:58:05.560

So, anyway, lotta the kids at that time, for some reason, they would call me for advice. Because they can't talk to their parents. Because their parents are not American-born, and they don't understand their problem, and

00:58:05.560 - 00:58:18.210

they would call me and ask for advice. So lot of them, lot of them still remember me. In fact, the bowling alley, one of the girls, she's so spoiled, she d--see, if you don't bowl, they--the team lose

00:58:18.750 - 00:58:28.070

a lot of points. So she just wanna come to socialize. So she doesn't wanna bowl, she said, "ah, I got a headache" (?), so I made her bowl. So she would write across the bowling alley, you know

00:58:28.070 - 00:58:38.660

the sign there--said "Mrs. Der Bing is a fink!" [laugh] And I see her now, Mad--I don't mind telling her name, Madeline.

00:58:39.170 - 00:58:51.720

And I said, "Madeline, am I still a fink?" And she says, "Ah," you know, she's married now, have kids and everything. But anyway, but, but... I said it's not fair, I say you don't wanna bowl, don't bowl.

00:58:52.490 - 00:59:07.340

So, you don't make your team lose all the time, losing all that points. But anyway, I had that, and then I had, I started the um, Miss Chinatown pageant here, you know. They used to have it out at Sylvan Beach.

00:59:08.490 - 00:59:20.490

And Sylvan Beach is out, you don't know that--Sylvan Beach is way out there, and-- Wait, is it Galveston? No, it's not Galveston, it's Sylvan Beach. They used to have the pageant there.

00:59:21.060 - 00:59:33.680

And there-- at the pageant, there was gambling there, there was--it's like a carnival. And I said that's not right, I said it's gonna make it luc--lucrative for the [unintelligible] girls to come in, compete

00:59:33.840 - 00:59:43.190

with all this going. So I had them--I started them to go to the hotel, so the first one we went to was the Rice hotel. Which no longer there anymore.

00:59:44.070 - 00:59:53.290

They had our first, uh, indoor, you know, pageant there. Where did you get the idea for a pageant? Huh? Where did you get the idea for a pageant?

00:59:53.490 - 01:00:04.720

No, I didn't have the idea. Um, my husband. Oh, gosh, he gets me in trouble. He was the president of the CACA and they, uh, they had

01:00:04.770 - 01:00:14.980

the pageant every year, the--nobody--the one, nobody wants to take care of it so far. So they got my husband involved. When my husband is involved, guess who does it?

01:00:15.290 - 01:00:29.410

He doesn't do it, I do it. [laugh] So every--I say, "Don't commit yourself!" Next time he comes home, "Well, guess what..." [laugh] So meanwhile, most of the pageants that I did were local girls.

01:00:30.010 - 01:00:44.420

They were not like the FOB's that you have now. It was hard to get the girls to run--I also have to have 6 girls. And they were always local girls. What did you--what did they do in the pageant?

01:00:44.920 - 01:01:01.360

They--they, they wear the Chinese dress, and they do the talent, whatever their talent is, and we, we ask them questions. And then it depends on how they present themselves. And I think there's four, four things that we scored and twen--twenty-five, twenty-five.

01:01:01.750 - 01:01:15.540

It's almost just like the national pageant, you know. But at that time, we didn't send them to [unintelligible] school (?). To the ma--to the main, to the uh, big one, Miss Chinatown USA.

01:01:16.480 - 01:01:32.060

In fact, my daughter-in-law is Miss Chinatown USA. But they since divorced. Uh, so, in your opinion how has Houston changed over the years?

01:01:32.300 - 01:01:42.930

Pardon? How has Houston changed? Houston changed? Yeah. [clears throat] Well, we used to know everybody; when we go to a restaurant we see ev-- see everybody. We know who's--their name, everything.

01:01:43.400 - 01:01:55.270

Now we go in there, we don't know anybody, all, you know, and then there's never been (?) so many Chinese restaurants. We only have one place to go for dim sum, now you can get ten, twenty of them.

01:01:56.700 - 01:02:08.640

And, well, I always look for Cantonese restaurant. Not a Northern restaurant because they're too spicy for me. Did you used to, like, do grocery shopping at Chinatown?

01:02:09.710 - 01:02:24.210

Yes, I used to. Do you remember what stores? Yeah. They're no longer there now. Oh. They're still in Chinatown, but they're no longer there.

01:02:24.730 - 01:02:38.410

Okay. Down, um... in fact our church used to be there. Down, down, uh, the old Chinatown. Oh, um, were your parents religious?

01:02:39.080 - 01:02:52.800

Or how did you like start getting religious? No. Because I think my kids need some, meet some other Chinese kids. That's how they got them-- [laugh] --get them involved, so they know the Chinese and what they look

01:02:52.870 - 01:03:06.180

like and what they do and everything else. Yeah, and they would--the kids at that time, were very, uh, close together, they do things together. And they, you know, like they have their own football team, and

01:03:06.680 - 01:03:24.300

they have like Sweetheart Ball, and like I said, the do--bowling thing. But now they're scattered all over. And um, what has been the biggest change in the world?

01:03:25.270 - 01:03:38.050

Pardon? What has been the biggest change in the world, just generally? Change in the world? Yeah. Uh... Or the things that you noticed? Open sex, and what they show on TV.

01:03:38.050 - 01:03:53.690

[laugh] And uh, uh, too much violence. Even though there's not that much discrimination, uh, I, I just don't feel safe. You know, I was robbed here, you know. Oh! Recently?

01:03:55.560 - 01:04:08.390

Uh... last year. May 18th, I think it was. That's horrible. Somebody followed me in and they didn't have a guard at the gate here, and--because he was making a round, checking all the doors.

01:04:08.810 - 01:04:22.610

And I we don't--I don't know whether it's an inside job, somebody knows he leaves every night, and ever since I was robbed, they have a 24-hour guard out there now. But he came, he followed--he f---he must have followed me in.

01:04:22.920 - 01:04:35.060

He was sitting at that bench there when I came in, I came in through the side door, instead of through the front, because I knew I would have to go to church the next day. And I want the car to be parked close to that door out there.

01:04:35.790 - 01:04:49.510

And so when I walked up, I looked at him, he was black, I say, "Do you live here?" 'Cause we don't have any black residents. He said, "No, I'm waiting for my aunt." 'Cause we have a lot of caregivers here, that you know, 24 hours.

01:04:50.090 - 01:05:02.720

So he said she's on the second floor upstairs. I said, oh, so, I say, I told him, I say, "You know I have to ask you, because, uh, you're not a resident here," we--you know, I don't know what I was gonna do with him.

01:05:02.780 - 01:05:14.590

He wasn't a resident, so I started walking to the stairway, and he followed me in, and he looked at me, he said--he smiled at me--"I'm taking your purse! I'm taking your t--" and he ran out!

01:05:15.040 - 01:05:27.260

And I chased after him. I don't know why I chased after him, I can't--and so he rode, he rode, drove-- drove his car away. And they took a picture of him--because they have cameras. And also of the

01:05:27.660 - 01:05:37.170

license on his car. But they, I don't know. They never told me about their--catch them or what. I haven't heard since. The police came and interviewed me.

01:05:37.890 - 01:05:48.330

But I got back everything that I lost, in my purse and everything. Even my lipstick. I bought new lipstick. Good thing he didn't kill me.

01:05:49.590 - 01:05:58.530

He could have because, in the stairway, wh--where you come in there-- Just in, in the building? Yeah, he came in the building. Nobody was there, it was 10:30 at night.

01:06:00.150 - 01:06:09.320

Would've been awful if he had, just killed someone in the building. Well, there's no sense in--no sense in killing me. He, you know, it's easy, he just took my purse and ran. Yeah, and he just smiled.

01:06:09.790 - 01:06:27.250

Huh? He just smiled. He said, "I"m taking your purse!" And he's clean-cut person. You know? Yeah. I was involved very much with, uh, in uh,

01:06:28.350 - 01:06:42.140

in Houston with the Chinese community. In fact, when Martha Wong ran for Council-- Oh yeah. --first day she ran, my husband went--help her. I walked... the block walk with her, and I

01:06:42.200 - 01:06:57.450

went everywhere with her. And then when she went to uh, when she was presented the... um... was it like Ann Richards--when it gets presented in Austin--well, she got presented--she got the award too.

01:06:58.020 - 01:07:09.310

So she invited us to go. And when she was uh, State Rep, when she was sworn in, we all went up there to see her sworn in. So I, you know, went through her whole career, the whole

01:07:09.430 - 01:07:21.820

eight years she was, she was uh, City Council, and the two times she was uh, State Rep. It was exciting. What did you do for her? Huh? What did you do for her?

01:07:22.280 - 01:07:36.310

I block walked, and I went to uh, fold--fold envelopes, stamp, and everything else. And make phone calls... and everything for her. Did you ever hear about Glenda Joe?

01:07:38.900 - 01:07:52.050

Uh, I know Glenda Joe and Cookie Joe very well. Oh, okay. See, when Cookie Joe ran for Miss Chinatown, I was the one that was in charge. I know her parents. Oh, um, I recently interviewed Glenda.

01:07:53.640 - 01:08:12.900

Oh, I know her. Yeah, so... Anything else? Um, we have--do you have any more questions about like, her community involvement, politics stuff? Um, no, do you have anything to add?

01:08:13.660 - 01:08:24.720

Like-- I have a few more questions, that are like off-topic. Go ahead. Okay. What has been your favorite decade? What has been my what?

01:08:24.820 - 01:08:39.650

Your favorite decade. My favorite what? Decade? Like--like, 60's, 70's... Oh, oh. My favorite is, um... oh. I hate to say this.

01:08:40.330 - 01:08:54.920

During the World War II, when we were working, and all my girlfriends, we had fun, we were just like a... a, um, we were some like--we were helping the war effort, we felt like we were doing something.

01:08:55.700 - 01:09:08.430

In fact, if you look at my bedroom, that crochet, that blanket, I used to crochet lots and lots of hats. And when an ombudsman--I was an ombudsman, you know, for uh, for about ten years here in Houston.

01:09:08.810 - 01:09:19.270

You know what that is. As a volun--volunteer-- Uh, could you, could you re-explain that? Ombudsman is um, volunteer person who inspects all the nursing home, make sure that it

01:09:19.270 - 01:09:34.080

adheres to all the rules. Okay, when I was that, I used to crochet a hundred hats every year for them. I love to crochet, 'cause it relaxes me. I crochet and watch TV at the same time.

01:09:36.100 - 01:09:53.250

So-- Okay, and then a couple more like random questions, what were your favorite, um, I don't know, like movies, or music, or actresses when you were young? My favorite movie is, um, uh... now, what is the title of that.

01:09:55.380 - 01:10:07.410

Um... oh. The one that they escape from the Nazis, the family? Uh, the music, uh... Oh, Sound of Music.

01:10:07.410 - 01:10:20.660

Yes. That's my favorite. That's really classic. Okay, and the last wrap-up question is, what has been your proudest achievement? What?

01:10:20.800 - 01:10:40.300

What has been your proudest achievement? My proudest achie--achivement... Uh, I think when I was an equal opportunity counselor

01:10:40.560 - 01:10:56.090

at NA--at NASA. And then the proudest achievement is when I started the uh, Asian Pacific Heritage at NASA in honor of Onizuka, the Japanese astronaut that died.

01:10:56.680 - 01:11:12.630

You know, they lived with us for--when they first came here, the whole family. Because they couldn't get the house. So I still contact with um, uh, Lorna Onizuka. She and I have--oh by the way, uh, my husband

01:11:13.550 - 01:11:29.360

is a P--like I said, is a PR person for NASA. And he, he, he stays with the astronaut's family, and he's a buffer between them and the news people. So when he died, one of the wives came,

01:11:29.820 - 01:11:44.170

and eu-- did the eulogy. And I didn't know that he did this, it was uh, uh, Jerry, um, Carl (Gerald Carr?) and he was the one that stay up in the shuttle for 84 days.

01:11:44.930 - 01:11:58.570

And, and she asked specifically for Bill, my husband, to be her PR person. And I didn't know that she has two sets of twins, and two kids, to he has to sorta take care of them.

01:11:59.030 - 01:12:12.570

And she wrote a book, and she dedicated to Bill, and she said she's been trying to find him, and she never could find him, so when, when he died, she gave me the books so I--I wanna give you one of the books.

01:12:13.830 - 01:12:25.820

Here, here it is behind me. Can you get it? I got a whole bunch of books, I bought--I had it autographed. Oh, it's in the back? Yeah, back there. Can you see it? Whole bunch of books?

01:12:25.980 - 01:12:37.030

Oh, yes. The red bag? It's a paper bag. Um, I see a bunch of books in a red bag. Yeah, th--that's it then.

01:12:38.600 - 01:12:52.970

They're all alike right? Yeah. What? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. She, she wrote a, she wrote a book about her life as an astronaut's wife. And op--there, open it up, I'll show you.

01:12:52.970 - 01:13:03.830

And my husband stayed with her. Um, and here's the uh, see, she autographed it. And then I think that's--right there...

01:13:05.770 - 01:13:20.560

she uh... here it is. She said, "And especially to Bill Der Bing." Okay? Oh, thank you. Is it like-- I--just one--I can only give you one.

01:13:20.820 - 01:13:28.280

You both can read it, you know, and everything else. We'll put it in the archive. Yeah, that's fine. We'll just... Yeah!

01:13:28.750 - 01:13:39.860

Fine, fine. You can read it, it's very interesting. It's, it's supposed to be fiction but it's not really fiction. It tells uh, how, how it feels and what she does as an astronaut's wife. TH and Oh.

01:13:43.280 - 01:14:00.150

Very interesting. Okay, so, I guess we're done, and um, can I take picture of you? Take a photo of you, uh, sitting here? Sure. Yeah. Well, I though you

01:14:01.900 - 01:14:20.530

were taking pictures there. Isn't it--aren't you vid-- And, yeah, and the, like the photos and documents that you had? I don't know what you're talking about.

01:14:21.830 - 01:14:39.940

Um, we're, we're taking a video, and then they also want a picture, like to put up on the website. Uh, can you take the picture, and I will just...

01:14:40.260 - 01:15:09.280

Oh, sure. Okay. Picture of you and I or something like that? Uh, just you.

01:15:16.360 - 01:15:59.250

Okay. Well, I thought you've been taking a

01:16:01.550 - 01:16:28.610

picture of me. Oh, we've been taking videos.

01:20:01.510 - 01:20:40.170

Well, same thing, isn't it? But

01:20:45.610 - 01:21:10.670

they want like a, just one still picture. Oh. Okay. Where do you want me to take it, right here,

01:21:23.180 - 01:21:29.890

in front of the-- Anywhere you want. --my hundred kids? Sure!