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So today's April 14 2021. My name's Kevin Chen. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive, and I'm with Dr. Mankad, experienced physician, founding president of the Global Health Science University and School of Medicine, and President and Chief Executive

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Officer of Qualitas Healthcare Solutions Incorporated. He's joining us today for an oral interview of his life. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today.

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Thank you, Kevin. Um, so a few questions about your early experiences. When and where were you born? I was born in 1944 in a small town called Viramgam

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in the state of Gujarat, India. At that time, India was still a British colony. It was not a free country.

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The World War 2 was coming to an end. This is the time when the British had robbed and looted India to the tune of 45 trillion dollars. And that is the

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amount that has been documented and published in a Columbia University Press publication. When I was two or three years old, in that town of 30,000,

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I can't really say that I remember the first Independence Day, you know. Independence came in 1947, and I was three years old.

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But when I was five or seven, I could see the evidence—I still remember seeing the evidence of the struggle for independence, and the impact that the partition of India had

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on our community. The country had plunged into poverty. There were refugees coming from Pakistan, which had been created in 1947. So, for example, there was a

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family I remember that came from Pakistan, with a pot with a string tied to it as their only property. Why did they take the pot with them?

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Because they would have to dip it in a well, along the way, as they walked from Pakistan to my town, they–they would dip it in the wells to drink water.

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And that was the only property that they had. Now they came into the town and they inquired and said, "Where can we find work?" And they–they had an auto garage in Pakistan.

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So the people of the city said, "Well, you know, maybe you ought to go to Doctor Mankad ."And so he then hired one of the brothers as a driver,

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and also to kind of keep the car in good shape. And that was a lifeline to that family. And I still remember that family, staying with us.

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Staying as our staff, as long as I remember, all of these decades of my life, I've known that family that really came with nothing. And it also—that was the

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environment that I was born in—first it was free India, and there was a lot of enthusiasm to build a new country, but on the other hand, a country that was plunged into poverty and strife.

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How would you describe, I guess, the household you grew up in? And that's an interesting question. We–we lived in a house or a property that at least partly was built

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in the mid 18th century. And it was associated with a historical figure, and the name of the person was Nana Fadnavis.

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I can send the spelling of all these names to you later, but this person was a chief minister in the kingdom, which is called Maratha kingdom, in the middle of the 18th century, which controlled

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more than half of India, and this Chief Minister must have come to this particular place to live, and so it was called Nana Fadnavis Nu Dehlu. “Nu Dehlu”—in Gujarati language, which is the

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language spoken there, means the gate, and everything behind that gate, known as Nana Phadnavis property, which means the courtyard of this Chief Minister.

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Now, of course, he was long gone, and people in the town didn't really remember that place as a Nana Phadnavis Nu Dehlu, they would actually call it Dr. Mankad Nu Dehlu, which means the courtyard of Dr.

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Mankad. I can tell you is that my father graduated from medical school, one of the only three medical schools in India in 1925. And he came to this town as the

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first well–trained doctor. First doctor, really, into the city of 30,000 and in the surrounding villages, there were no doctors.

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So, he was busy very quickly and highly respected. If you approach this house, there’s a steep–steep

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curve that you’d go up on and then there's this formidable wooden gate, and behind that gate, there is again a slightly more comfortable driveway that then goes into a compound where there was a three story house—two stories plus an attic, and his

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office—in America, we call it office—there we call it dispensary. Dispensary means dispensing medicines. His dispensary was on the ground floor and we lived on the second floor and then the third floor was used as a storage.

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So in the second floor, we had five rooms and the living room, a little informal place to hang out, a kitchen and two additional rooms for storage and beds and so on.

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And there was a terrace. In India, the summers are hot. So you go into this terrace and sleep there on futons.

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So we didn't sleep on the—on springboard mattresses like here, so we– we slept on a futon on this terrace, staring at the sky, and–and the sky was generally not

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polluted in 50s. So you could actually see all the stars, and you can count the stars and my family would actually teach which constellations we were looking at. And of course, they changed by season, right?

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So it was–it was that kind of living. Now, my father, this is before my birth, when he came to this house in 1925. He–he would go to his

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patients’ homes for housecall, walking. You know that kind of limited him to a smaller area—it’s a very small area. Then he bought a horse, so he could go farther. And the horse would only eat good grass, so

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he had a bale of grass, you know- the horse would only pick the best grass. You know there was a lot of extra grass, and so my father thought, well, why don't we get a buffalo? So, he had a buffalo. And–and so

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the buffalo milk was available to the family. This is all before my time. Then he got a horse and a buggy. And then he got a British car called

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Vauxhall in 1935. And that's also the year when he married my mother and that was his

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second marriage. When I was a child I remember a British car called Morris, it is still sold in England2.

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That was replaced around the time of freedom to an indigenous, India made car called Hindustan 11; it was a gray color car. So there—and all the horses, the horse buggy, and all that

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has gone when I was a child. I had six siblings and there were seven of us. And so, a very busy place, my father in practice

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on the ground floor, and we were living upstairs. And the neighborhood was, as I said, poor, but slowly catching up with the modern

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life. He had a car, which was one of 10 or 15 cars in the city of 30,000. So you would say, well, then he must be well off. Well, I don't want to exaggerate our financial

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status, because what I can tell you is that he was practicing in a very poor community. He would charge one rupee to see a patient. One rupee was

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equal to 20 U.S. cents in those days. And that would include making a diagnosis and giving medicine. So even the drugs were included in 20 cents, and suturing up the

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laceration, or doing whatever the patient needs; a new case, one rupee. If you go back for a second visit, you know, it's even less so you–you know, he was essentially charging pennies.

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And–so we had clean clothes, good food, and good education. But I can say that, by American standards, or European standards, or even Indian standards of the day, we weren't super rich; we just were comfortable.

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So you mentioned that your father was a physician, did you ever face any influence from him to also become a physician? Absolutely, yeah. Not in a direct sense.

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I mean, he never said, you better be a doctor, that wasn't the message—there were seven of us growing up in this family, and so he just wanted to facilitate on whoever we wanted to be, you know, and I'm the only doctor in

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seven siblings, so there was no–there was no pressure. But you know, as a five, seven year old, when he would make house calls, I would often accompany him, I carried his bag.

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And we go into patients’ homes, and I could see the respect that he had earned in the community. He also was elected as the vice president of the Municipal Corporation.

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He was in that position for 12 years; he was also president of the Medical Society for the state—whole state. He was a prominent doctor and highly respected in that community. I could see that, right?

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So that had a lot of influence on me. Now later, and you know, I guess I, if you go into details of my college years, I'll

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bring it up again. But India, you see—when I went to college in India was what, 12, 14 years into freedom; they were building everything. They were dams being built, the new factories and

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steel mills, and everything was coming up and rebuilding of the country. And so, engineering was the profession that was number one. Not medicine. And I considered becoming an engineer.

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But then I thought, well, okay, there are going to be a lot of engineers. But what I see—what I'm destined to be, is like my father. Take

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care of people, serve people, and take care of their pain, and make them well and earn the respect if I do a good job. So that was–that was my motivation. And when you were growing up, were there any cultural

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or specific, I guess, moral values that your father or your parents instilled within you that still, I guess, guide your practice today? Sure–sure. I think I need to tell you about my mother because

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when you talk about the values, they really comes from both the father and the mother, and–and the rest of the family and the teachers and the, you know, as they say in Africa, it takes a village to raise a child.

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So my values are not just from my parents, but from the whole community. And so let me tell you about my mother. So here is my father,

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who is practicing medicine and is doing very well in this town—highly respected. He was married first time and he had two sons. And then first wife, died in

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childbirth. He was 35 years old. Around that time, he married my mother. My mother was born in a small

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town, I should say, a village, okay? It was a village with 2000 people. She was very smart. But at the age of 13, her parents took her out–out of the

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school, said, "Well, you-you're going to cook!" So she was forced to drop out of school, which was not uncommon in 1930s-India, for girls. The boys

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were preferred. Girls don't have to be educated as much. So–so she–she was taken out, and she was very smart and pretty, and my father married her. So then my father said, “I am a physician, and

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I'm leading this community and you need to learn. You need to educate yourself”. So, he hired a teacher, to come to

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our home. And that teacher homeschooled my mother, so she then reached the high school equivalency or so, and then later, I mean, when she was to come to U.S., she took the test for immigration and became a

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US citizen and so on. This would not have been possible without the education she received. So the first thing that I—in terms of the values that you asked, you know, what I can tell you is that my–

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my father, my mother, my siblings, my community, my town, and my country, inculcated in me the value of honesty, helping other people,

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being truthful, not hurting other people, and education. So all–all seven of us were educated in college double majors, PhDs and so on.

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We have; we have had a very high value on education, and on serving the society with socially redeeming value, so you always want to make things better for your fellow human beings.

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And then moving on to your immigration experiences. After medical education, what kind of motivated you to immigrate to the US and why Chicago specifically. Good question.

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So first, I guess I need to tell you about my college experiences because that's where this decision to immigrate was made, okay. So–so I'm in this town of 30,000, and I graduate from high

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school top of the class number one and—but there is no college. So, I had to go out to another city. And I consider–I consider the city about an hour train ride from my hometown.

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It's a big city, and another city, Mumbai, which is an overnight journey, so almost 14 hours of train ride, 360 miles, all right. So pretty— long distance, but

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a metropolis and great colleges and so on, but I selected something between. So I went to a City called Baroda, or the true Indian word is Vadodara.

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The British made it Baroda. This city was between this nearby city and Mumbai.

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In terms of size, Baroda had 200,000 people. It was established by a king, who was a very progressive king. Now, of course, during British time, he was under subjugation by British.

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And then he was— his kingdom was merged into the Union of India when the country became free. But the king was a very progressive King, and therefore, Baroda was college town with wide avenues

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and palatial buildings that— my–my science colleges actually had a dome, like a palace, and beautiful architecture, peaceful, highly cultural, so there's music and arts and so on.

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And I thought that rather than go to this Mumbai, which is a big mega city, I go to this city, you know, my personality that suited better. Since I was growing up in this

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small town , I didn't really want to go to a city, like Mumbai with 5 million people. So–so I went to this city called Baroda. The first year I'm in a dorm.

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My roommate was an alcoholic. He had a lot of vices. And that was very unusual in the state of Gujarat, which is the land of Mahatma Gandhi. This is

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where Mahatma Gandhi was born. Alcohol was prohibited. For a student in the first year, to be drinking all the time, that was almost unheard of.

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So I just avoided that, you know, I avoided my own room. I said, “I'm not going to stay here, just go someplace else and read”. Occasionally I went

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there to pick up my clothes. But you asked me about my values. If my parents had not given me the right values, I could have made wrong choices.

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Right? So here--and then the first year goes by, I'm considering engineering, medicine, so on. And there are 750 students in this class. So in–in my small town I was number one, right.

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But here in–in–in this city, in the University, there are 750 students, and I didn't know how I was going to do. Well, it just so happened when the results came out, I was number one, again, among people who sought the admission

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to medical school. So, actually, I was number seven, but the top six went to engineering. I went to medical school. And throughout this, you know, I just—I had this intellectual

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curiosity. So I wanted to do research. Here is the rebuilding the country. So we're not going to accept things as they are, we're going to improve them. So I

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would go to my professors and department chairs and say, I want to do research. And–and the department chairs would usually say, “well, but we don't really have much research, I can't help you now”.

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So, no help there. Well, in the medical school, there was a—in our medical school, the WHO funded an exchange with the medical school in Edinburgh,

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in Scotland. So every year, six professors from Edinburgh would come there. And that's when I would go and talk about research. So I said, “Well, this is

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something I could do outside of India. Now, should I go to England, or should I go to U.S? In India, historically, people went to England

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because it was a British colony. But in the 60s, it was changing, and U.S. also had changed.

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The new immigration laws came into existence in 1965. The immigration opened, and it was less Eurocentric and more global in America.

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And U.S. was leading the world in research and education. So, I decided to come to U.S. to pursue knowledge and

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education and particularly research. That was the motivation. I'm answering your question in a long way. But basically you have to go through the journey through college

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and say, well, here's what I want to do, and can I get it? And if I can't get it, where can I go to get it? So that brought me to U.S. Now, of course, I didn't have much money, so I couldn't come to U.S.

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and take interviews. All I could do is first I had to take the equivalency exam. So for my education has to be compared to U.S.

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education, I had to get MD equivalent exam done. And so I did that, and did very very well. And then I applied to various schools, in–in

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U.S., now Harvard, and Hopkins, and, you know, Stanford. And those would be of course, the choices, but–but they would require interviews. And I didn't have money to just come for the interviews and then go back to India—they

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don't have that kind of money. Among many applications, Cook County Hospital in Chicago sent me a telegram and said, “You are accepted in our internship”.

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Alright, so sight unseen, with only an application filled out, with my picture, and my scores, and some recommendation letters, Cook County decided to give me a job as an

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intern. So that landed me in Chicago. And when you first arrived in the U.S., what kind of culture shock did you experience? Well, Hollywood movies are quite popular all over the world.

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So to some extent, the Americans are quite shocked when they go to an unknown country. But–but in the rest of the world, you kind of get some idea . Of course, that's pretty skewed.

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The one movie that I really fell in love with was Niagara Falls; sorry, not Niagara Falls, but "Niagara," that was the name of the movie. Marilyn Monroe was the actress.

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And there's this beautiful Niagara Falls and–and beautiful blonde actress. And so I thought America was like that . But, I think that the culture shocks were somewhat

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amusing, not shocking. Your friend has my memoir, in which I devoted a whole chapter to my first day.

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Because that's where you get a shock! Most shock happens on a day one. So–I take this plane ride, and they serve me cereals and milk. And I don't know how to eat cereals and milk; I never

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had eaten cereal. So, I look around and they add milk on the cereals and then they added some white powder on it. So I thought they

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must be adding salt. So I added salt and said, "Mmm, that tastes good." And so, for many months later, cereals and milk always went with salt for me, alright .

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And anyway, so first day as you take the plane ride there–you're starting from Mumbai and then I landed in Beirut, Lebanon, and there's the—all the Arabs with kuffiia and robes, and then, I went

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to Frankfurt, and at the Frankfurt Airport—all the European flavor, and then England and then to U.S. and then suddenly, all these things change; the food, the people, the color, the–the

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smell, the clothes-- everything changes, you know, —on day one. Now, it—this may not be the experience of someone traveling today, but I'm talking about 1968 when not many people

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even took a plane ride, you know, international plane ride. So here, I'm coming into Chicago and first day we make it to this friend's home, and he was living in a

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pretty crummy place because he was a student too, near the engineering college and so we make it to his home. And then, because of the jetlag, I was really

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awake, fully awake. So, he says, well, let's go to Adler Planetarium. Do you know where that is on Lake Michigan? Yep, been there are many times.

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So, we drove up to Adler Planetarium with my friends. And just in front of me, as I'm watching the skyline, there is the slope of a lawn, where there are all these young couples making out,

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kissing each other. And there is this young man sneaking his tongue into the mouth of this woman. And there is a saliva flowing back and forth.

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And to me, that was very strange. Now—even though I had seen the couples kissing in Hollywood movies, you know, that's not India. That was not India in 1960s, 2021 is

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different. But the point is that this unabashed display of physical affection in front of everybody, and then having this intimate kissing on—just in front of you on the lawn. To me, that was shocking.

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And it was–it was a culture shock, somewhat amusing. It wasn't traumatic. Now, later in a day or two, when I started my internship, then there were more shocks. So, for instance,

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one of my first patients was abused; a child who was abused by somebody in the family. And, you know, it was shocking to see that.

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I saw a lot of violence during the first year, I also suddenly became a minority. So, you begin to experience the discrimination. But there were a lot of positive aspects, you know, so,

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the—so for example, a lot of opportunities, a lot of good people to teach you and, you know, take you by– by your hand and guide you and so on. This is an interesting country where there is a mix of

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opportunities and discrimination. And, you know, here you have great education and culture, and at the same time, you

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know, there's the violence. So, you have this interesting mix. And what I found is that I could always navigate around prejudices and discrimination,

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you know, not that I've not been—there's always been roadblocks. But–but there's so many opportunities and so many positive events that allow you to do what

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you want to do. And as you know, we've progressed a lot as a society in terms of, you know, diversity, inclusion, and social justice. And as you've just mentioned, you have experienced

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discrimination. And in your memoir, you also, briefly kind of touch upon it—the discrimination in the workplace. Could you elaborate on some of the experiences you've had with discrimination

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as an immigrant? Sure. Typically, the training programs wanted to recruit the graduates of American medical schools, and to some extent, that is acceptable, you know,

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why should a country import physicians from other countries, right? So they prefer to recruit their own, but then once a person is here, and if they're able to

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do a good job, then should they have the opportunity to grow and–and work well, right? As soon as I arrived in Cook County Hospital, I decided that

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this place was great as a place to get a lot of experience, it was the largest hospital in the world in 1968. Now it is much smaller.

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But you know, just to give you an example, they had 20,000 deliveries a year. Now, typical hospital here would have 2,000 deliveries per year. So–so this is a place where–they give you a lot of experience in— which I got,

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but it—there was not a University Hospital. I wanted to go to a better teaching environment. And it was difficult to get out of Cook County and then to go to a teaching hospital.

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But then I found some people who helped me, and I got around it. And so then I became a resident in NYU. And then I made it to—as a fellow in Cornell. So in a matter of five years, I go from Cook County Hospital, which was not

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a university, a big hospital, a lot of experience, but then I go to Cornell, one of the Ivy League schools. And–and that says something about the opportunity.

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But on the other hand, perhaps I would have even done better, had I made it to Cornell in the very first year, right? I want to say this

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in the most positive way, because I've been very happy with what I've been able to do. But you know, there was a time when I was nominated to be the President of a university.

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And there was a national search. And they went through the interviews, and then I was told that I was one of the two finalists.

00:37:09.490 - 00:37:22.540

Then I get a call from the board chairman, and he says, "Sorry, but you know, we have decided to stop the search; we are going to do something else." So I said, okay, I got plenty of other work to do, I'll do something else.

00:37:22.760 - 00:37:41.310

So I was immersed in my research. Six years later, I'm in this NIH review session, where I'm one of the reviewers of grant applications. And another reviewer walked to me and said, "do you recognize me?" I said,

00:37:41.310 - 00:37:55.310

"No, I don't." "I was one of the persons on your search committee when you came to our city, to be the president of the university, and we listed you and the other person.

00:37:56.540 - 00:38:14.260

I want you to know that the other person was an African American." So the board stopped the search, and the search committee was very upset because they had done all this hard work, interviewing so many people, looking at resumes and, you know, spent

00:38:14.260 - 00:38:29.180

hours and hours doing it. So they met with the board, and they say, "Well, why? Why did you stop the search?" And the board chairman says, "Well, you brought me an Indian American

00:38:29.720 - 00:38:44.650

and an African American. And we aren't ready to have that in our leadership." So then, I go on to doing something—some

00:38:45.790 - 00:39:02.730

other things, and I'm very happy with the accomplishments and the work that I've done, and I'm going to do—I'm doing currently. But when–when United States or

00:39:02.790 - 00:39:26.910

any country keeps one segment of the population or 10 segments of the population subdued, and instead of meritocracy, selects people on the basis of national heritage of the person, then what

00:39:27.530 - 00:39:46.090

happens? This is a great country, but it could even be greater if we were able to capture the creativity of every human being here, and as I said earlier, there are plenty of

00:39:46.170 - 00:40:01.890

opportunities here and to circumnavigate around the obstacles and I'm very fortunate . The–the point that I'm making is that as

00:40:03.850 - 00:40:21.540

a country, if we look at every human being as a person capable of the best and nurture and allow them to grow, regardless of race, ethnicity, national origin, and all these

00:40:21.730 - 00:40:35.910

other factors on which we are discriminated against, then I think this country will be even greater. And I–I say that for all countries in the world. In fact, compared to many countries, U.S.

00:40:36.280 - 00:40:51.370

is much more of a merit– based society, which is why it is great. I think the country has been made great by immigration, by meritocracy, by opportunities and all I'm saying

00:40:51.780 - 00:41:06.660

is that– that should be available to a person of every background. And you're a very accomplished physician and physician leader. Could you talk a bit about your

00:41:06.660 - 00:41:24.650

experience leading Kentucky Children's Hospital? Sure. So, when I became pediatric department chair, I had already done biomedical research, I had

00:41:25.260 - 00:41:44.660

directed a division of Pediatrics Hematology–Oncology, for children with the blood diseases and cancer and taught medical students and done all that to really become eligible to become the department chair.

00:41:46.820 - 00:42:02.430

And what I saw during the job interview was that the department in Kentucky was relatively small. It could be bigger. But what–what was

00:42:02.450 - 00:42:17.690

really handicapping the department was that they were working in a facility that was really antiquated. It wasn't really designed for children. So you have children who were

00:42:17.960 - 00:42:30.050

being taken care of in a hospital for everybody else, mostly adults. Children really have special needs. They need to know when they are hospitalized.

00:42:30.770 - 00:42:47.340

They're traumatized because of the hospitalization. Now everybody is, even adults are, but the children actually are traumatized more, because they are taken out of school, taken out of home, put in a hospital stuck, you know, they have

00:42:47.560 - 00:42:58.800

IVs, taking all kinds of medicines; traumatic things happen. So in order to reduce the trauma, psychosocial trauma, they need

00:42:58.800 - 00:43:17.810

special facilities, which is what we call Children's Hospitals. They're much more homelike and cheerful, and supportive of children, families, and those who take care of them. So if you don't have those facilities, then you can't really recruit very good

00:43:17.810 - 00:43:28.020

faculty, very good doctors. You can't expand your department, you can't take good care of children. The education suffers. So this is

00:43:28.020 - 00:43:43.780

something I saw during the interview. Now, just to take you through that process, you know, department chair interview typically is very competitive. So there are 50–60 applicants, and they select six–seven of

00:43:43.850 - 00:43:59.830

them for interviews and then you go through this process. And again, the Search Committee selects two people. And then the leadership would select one out of the two. Prior to coming to Kentucky, there were

00:44:00.720 - 00:44:15.830

seven other places where I went through the search process. And often I was in the top two, but never the the finalist and–kind of like the bridesmaid, but never the bride.

00:44:17.240 - 00:44:30.420

And–and I thought well maybe this is the glass ceiling that I'm going to hit. But in Kentucky, there was a leadership that saw that there were two

00:44:30.420 - 00:44:42.620

candidates, and one of them was a local person who had really worked in Kentucky and was born here and grew up here and studied here and so on. So he's a typical local candidate.

00:44:43.290 - 00:44:54.350

And here is—I'm coming from another institution, with research background and enthusiasm and so on. So they have this dilemma. Do we go with this local person or select him?

00:44:54.550 - 00:45:07.510

So, one of the things that I said is that in order for them to recruit me, they have to build a Children's Hospital. And I presented them a plan on how to do it.

00:45:07.900 - 00:45:22.940

That's what distinguished me from the other candidate. And so that is something that I was able to do as a candidate, but I also have to give credit to the people who were in the selection

00:45:22.940 - 00:45:42.500

process; the leadership. You were asking about discrimination and opportunities, you know, here is this leadership that says, “this guy was born in a different country, he's brown skinned and speaks with a

00:45:42.500 - 00:45:56.490

little accent, but look at what he has done. And look at what he's proposing. So we are going to recruit him.” So I became a department chair, that was part of the negotiation, I really said

00:45:56.690 - 00:46:12.590

there was going to be a Children's Hospital here, right. Now, promise is promise, now that–that doesn't mean that it is going to happen, I promised you, but now I had to work on getting the support from the community, from

00:46:12.660 - 00:46:30.480

pediatricians, from the governor's office, get the money, the donors. So, we did all that—we planned a Children's Hospital, and it took about five to six years to do all that and then build a children's hospital.

00:46:31.870 - 00:46:49.480

That was a very interesting process and something that I feel very fortunate to have been part of. But you know, I think that in every place we should have those kinds of processes, you know you—opportunity to

00:46:49.480 - 00:47:07.520

do the best that you can for the institution. And on the topic of being a physician leader, what motivated you, or what motivates you now to plan this Global Health Science University and School of Medicine?

00:47:08.210 - 00:47:17.940

Could you tell me more about your current work on planning it, and its relevance in today's world, as well as some of the broad issues you're trying to solve within healthcare?

00:47:18.910 - 00:47:36.100

Absolutely. My colleagues and I feel that we have a broken healthcare system, and a medical education system. And we have to fix it, even if it takes disruption;

00:47:38.860 - 00:47:55.770

disruption if necessary, but let's fix it. What are the problems that need to be fixed? Well, in the United States with the highest per capita wealth—among the highest—in a very highly organized, wealthy country,

00:47:56.760 - 00:48:13.090

we have tremendous disparities in health, public health and health care. We have rich people who get too much care, and they suffer from the adverse consequences of unnecessary care.

00:48:14.270 - 00:48:30.300

And then we have poor people who don't get care or don't get enough care. They suffer from illnesses that could be prevented or treated. So if you really look at the public health performance of this country, you know, we are

00:48:31.040 - 00:48:48.910

29th in 35 industrialized countries. In fact, in some public health measures, we are–we are behind Cuba. I think our health care and health care system

00:48:49.390 - 00:49:02.240

needs to be fixed. Medical Education is very expensive. When a medical student graduates with a debt of $200,000 at the

00:49:02.240 - 00:49:21.660

end of the education, and to really pay that they have to make career choices that they might not make if there was not that much of debt. For that level of expense, what do we give them?

00:49:22.320 - 00:49:36.590

We have a system where we select students on the basis of scores, MCAT scores, and competition rather than collaboration. There's little attention that we pay to compassion

00:49:38.350 - 00:49:52.040

and ethics and the sense of humanity. I'm not saying that our graduates don't have that, but we have a medical education system that is not really designed to meet

00:49:52.040 - 00:50:10.060

the needs of the country and it's too expensive. If you really look at this globally, it's even worse. You go to many countries in Asia and Africa, the public health is abysmal.

00:50:11.240 - 00:50:24.300

And there are not enough doctors, not well trained. Americans might ask- why do we care? You know, in the last four–five years, there was this

00:50:24.870 - 00:50:40.130

tension between globalization and nationalism. And our country went through a nationalist trend, we said, well take care of us, you know, so we can be greater? Well, I really think that global pandemic, like

00:50:40.960 - 00:51:01.080

COVID, has taught us that we don't live in an isolated world; the Global Health influences our health, and we should, as Americans, influence global health, right. So—now, this concept

00:51:02.370 - 00:51:15.220

didn't come about just because of COVID pandemic. In fact, the Global Health Science University that we conceptualized was organized two years before COVID pandemic.

00:51:16.600 - 00:51:34.190

So we have always believed that the–the health is really a global commodity or global attribute. Think about it, the human body has DNA, RNA, cells, tissues, diseases, liver, spleen, kidneys—same

00:51:36.900 - 00:51:53.780

whether you are in China or India, or Africa, U.S., right? And yes, there are cultural differences and language differences and so on, but the human biology, human physiology, pathology, and the way we can take care of people is

00:51:53.780 - 00:52:11.890

same. If it was not same, I would not have come from India and taken care of Americans. The point is that the medicine is a global discipline, it has always been a global discipline, but we have

00:52:12.030 - 00:52:24.490

frequently been too nationalistic. So we say well, this is what we do in America and so on. Now, it was difficult to do globalization when everything on paper and everything was local.

00:52:25.480 - 00:52:40.840

But you know, with information technology, we are able to globalize everything. So, we can globalize medical education, we can globalize public health, we can globalize response to

00:52:40.900 - 00:52:56.410

pandemics or response to global health crises. And the crises may come not just from infections, it may come from tsunamis, or global warming. The point is that we can respond to all of this

00:52:58.190 - 00:53:09.850

as a global community. These are global problems and solutions can't come from one country, they require a global solution. So one of the things that we did was to say,

00:53:10.170 - 00:53:21.830

we're going to make a Global Health Science University, and we'll begin in the U.S., because this is where the highest standards of medical education exist and highest amount of knowledge and research

00:53:21.830 - 00:53:38.280

and so on. This is where we will begin, but we are not going to stop here, it is going to have a global footprint. We have advisors that include former university presidents,

00:53:39.410 - 00:53:51.080

deans; they have a lot of ideas on where healthcare should go or where medical education should go. We have public health experts. We have industry leaders, and we have some people

00:53:51.890 - 00:54:06.570

who can really introduce us to donors, because we're going to need a lot of money to bring about this dream and accomplish this dream.

00:54:06.780 - 00:54:22.160

So, we are at a point where we are beginning to define the curriculum. We have a very detailed business plan. We are considering several

00:54:22.360 - 00:54:39.750

locations. We're building the clinical research networks; we're building clinical delivery systems, and as soon as we have enough capital, we will begin the accreditation process for both the university and the

00:54:39.750 - 00:54:58.780

medical school. And then we will begin the global footprint. And you know, I grew up in India, but I also worked in England, I worked in Brazil, I worked in Japan, so I am an international person.

00:54:58.780 - 00:55:17.520

If we were to build a global university, I believe that I can play a role in building it. What I think you're doing is great, actually. And I guess you lived in many different places,

00:55:18.510 - 00:55:33.610

so does planning the—this university, is that kind of what brought you to Houston then? Not really. I mean Houston is a great place and Texas has a lot of opportunities and we can certainly

00:55:34.330 - 00:55:47.820

build the Global Health Science University in Houston or Austin, Corpus Christi, or any number of places in Texas. We can do it in California, we can do it in North

00:55:50.280 - 00:56:08.240

Carolina. We have some criteria that we want to satisfy in order to support this concept. What brought me to Houston is my younger son, Raj Mankad. He has a PhD in creative writing.

00:56:09.350 - 00:56:25.730

His wife is also a creative writer, and Raj is the editor of Houston Chronicle op–ed section. We have two grandchildren here. I have another set of families, my older son

00:56:25.850 - 00:56:42.770

and grandchildren from his family in North Carolina. We have a condo here in Houston and we have a home in North Carolina and we go back and forth. We have really enjoyed Houston.

00:56:43.050 - 00:57:00.110

Here, we have the culture, the Asian culture, the Indian culture, we have so much music and drama and museums and you know, and just the Indian community here.

00:57:01.180 - 00:57:18.750

One of the groups that my wife and I both belong to, is a group of literary people who promote the language called Gujarati. India is a very

00:57:18.750 - 00:57:35.450

heterogeneous country; it's not one block. You have 22 officially recognized languages in India, and there are many more; these are just in the Indian constitution—written into the

00:57:35.450 - 00:57:54.500

Constitution. One of those languages is Gujarati. There's a group that really promotes the Gujarati literature—these people compose–compose poetry, prose, we invite

00:57:54.620 - 00:58:09.120

the poets from India, they come and talk to us—they present their creative work. And we are making sure that this Gujarati literature is preserved. And now, to come back to you know why is it

00:58:09.120 - 00:58:24.410

relevant in U.S.? Well, I think that's what makes this country great. We have people who come from India with 22 different languages, different cuisines,

00:58:24.740 - 00:58:40.830

different cultures, different music, and they bring it all to Houston. And I can probably say that same about—are you from China, or wher–where is your family? Okay, well, China is the same thing, right?

00:58:40.830 - 00:59:01.740

Ancient culture and you have, you know, so many different regions and languages and–and–and so when–when the Chinese arrived here, or Vietnamese arrived here, or Middle Eastern, you know, Iraqis arrived here, they bring with them, all this culture,

00:59:02.290 - 00:59:15.000

and Houston is a place where they can—Houston and many other cities is where–where, you know, we can really bring this rich culture and–and nurture.

00:59:18.200 - 00:59:33.060

So, yes, it's my son and my grandchildren, they bring me here, but I enjoy it here. My wife and I enjoy it here. We love the university, the Medical Center—I am on the clinical faculty at Baylor medical school.

00:59:36.960 - 00:59:53.220

And since you have two sons, and since we're talking about culture, what kind of values did you emphasize in their upbringing, and did you also educate them on your own

00:59:53.330 - 01:00:12.040

ethnic and cultural heritage? Absolutely. The values of helping others and doing something that is socially redeeming, and making an impact on the society, being honest,

01:00:12.790 - 01:00:28.340

straightforward, spiritual, religious, all of these values, we have inculcated in our children and grandchildren. One of the reasons why I wrote the memoir was to

01:00:28.340 - 01:00:42.490

convey to my grandchildren and their- our next generations, and the heritage, we bring here—the values we bring here. Now, I'm not going to say that my values are superior to anybody else's values.

01:00:42.590 - 01:01:02.880

I mean, what I'm just stating here would be common values of humanity. So think about it, you know, my older son became a physician, and he was a very good student who could have chosen any specialty, but he chose psychiatry

01:01:02.880 - 01:01:21.350

and mental health because here is this population that is really distressed, and he wanted to help them. So there, his contribution that's being made in North Carolina. Raj, a

01:01:21.490 - 01:01:41.110

very bright person, he was admitted to medical school, but decided to pursue writing, and he's very socially active. So, you know, there was the war in Iraq, he's

01:01:42.540 - 01:01:58.010

there protesting against it, even when it was popular to support it. And, so he's–is in–in the mindset where he really wants to make an impact on the community, and the

01:01:58.060 - 01:02:11.830

way he's doing it, is by shaping the opinions in Houston through Houston Chronicle. I hope that–that kind of gives you the examples of the values that we are trying to

01:02:12.150 - 01:02:26.360

convey. What I can tell you is that when they were growing up, in Alabama—in Mobile, not many Indian families, and so it was difficult to transmit

01:02:26.530 - 01:02:42.050

this cultural value and so we formed an organization. We initially met in each other's homes, then we get a hall, now is a temple in

01:02:43.980 - 01:03:02.820

Alabama, and-that part of the upbringing for both of my sons, and–and they're doing the same for their children, and–and that's a—we're hoping that we are able to transmit as much of our heritage or good part of the heritage and values to

01:03:02.820 - 01:03:21.970

them, and they do so for their children. So you are obviously very proud of your own heritage, but were there any times where you were frustrated with it perhaps due to difficulties or any other experiences?

01:03:24.570 - 01:03:38.010

The way you think about heritage or culture is really not a block of gold, right? It's not–it's not uniform—no culture is uniform.

01:03:39.000 - 01:03:49.030

It's kind of—it's more like a flower. So you have these petals, with different colors and different aromas. It could–it could also have a thorn.

01:03:51.260 - 01:04:06.910

There is no culture that is perfect. Obviously I'm happy with the way culture gave me the values, but there have been issues in my culture as there are always in every culture.

01:04:08.040 - 01:04:22.310

So the way one looks at the culture and heritage is that, can I make it better? Really, that's the definition of culture, is always improving your humanity.

01:04:24.090 - 01:04:39.540

Through arts and literature and study of history and practice of medicine or practicing your religion or doing yoga and meditation, whatever you want to do, but you're always trying to become a better human

01:04:39.560 - 01:04:55.260

being and–and making impact on other human beings. And, I'm proud of what my country and my motherland has given me, my adopted land United States have

01:04:55.260 - 01:05:11.700

given me but it is not static. Am I rejecting my culture? Well, I'm not rejecting my entire culture, but if I know that there is

01:05:11.700 - 01:05:25.130

something that's not right, then I have to evolve out of it. So for example, we know Indian culture in India, thousands of years ago, it

01:05:25.250 - 01:05:38.080

didn't have castes, but then the castes develop, and society became rigid. And then we decided as a country that no, that's not right.

01:05:38.130 - 01:05:54.780

You don't want to discriminate against anybody on the basis of birth; so the caste became illegal, you know, the constitution says you can't discriminate. Well, discrimination still occurs, but do I reject the entire

01:05:54.840 - 01:06:06.730

culture? No, but I identify where there is a need for improvement, and then evolve out of it. I think that is the best culture, in my opinion.

01:06:10.200 - 01:06:30.910

Do you ever have any conflicts with your children, perhaps, or your family regarding different, I guess, viewpoints and opinions when it comes to your—this culture? Oh, well, we frequently have discussions on what culture means, but

01:06:30.910 - 01:06:43.760

as I said, the culture is not a monolithic block of gold, you know, there's always an issue to debate. And, you know, one of the things

01:06:43.760 - 01:06:59.980

that I believe in, is that we first we have to heal ourselves. Physician thy heal thy-thyself, as they say, and the way I try to do it, is I practice yoga and meditation,

01:07:00.360 - 01:07:13.500

and I go meditate and think about different issues and I teach that to my family, my children and grandchildren. And they bring up questions, and we debate and we don't always agree.

01:07:14.830 - 01:07:30.530

And then both of my children graduated with philosophy as their major, in their undergraduate college; so they have been trained to think critically, that's what the discipline of

01:07:30.660 - 01:07:41.730

philosophy is. They are going to ask me questions, and I explain to the best of my knowledge, they seek other sources. So, do we have disagreements?

01:07:41.730 - 01:07:55.700

Yeah, occasionally, but I wouldn't say that they are conflicts. And I can say the same thing about my parents. My parents grew up in more authoritarian society. And the way–the

01:07:55.700 - 01:08:09.420

way Indian culture trained us was that you always respect the elders, and your teachers. One of the procedure was that on any good day, you know, any

01:08:09.850 - 01:08:24.260

festival and your birthday, you go to your parents and touch their feet, prostrate before them, and touch their feet, in sign of humility and respect. Well, in

01:08:24.260 - 01:08:40.700

the United States, we hug each other. So my children, well occasionally on a festival they touch my feet, but the point is that more often than touching the feet, we hug each other.

01:08:40.700 - 01:08:59.570

What has happened here is that the respect is now evolving into love. We're not giving up the respect, but the point is that it's a big step. It's a big step, you know, touching somebody's feet, to hugging

01:09:01.650 - 01:09:16.530

them. That is how the Indian culture is evolving. I'm not saying that touching feet is wrong. But you know, if it's always the respect for the authority and always do what the authority tells you, then that's

01:09:16.610 - 01:09:32.930

really not the best way. You know, you should also love the other person and respect the other person. So, you know, we are evolving too. And as an immigrant physician with a specialty in

01:09:32.930 - 01:09:49.890

pediatrics, extensive experience in the field, you must have interacted with a–a lot of people from diverse backgrounds. And so do you have any advice to people who are interested in bridging cultures, and

01:09:49.890 - 01:10:03.970

just connecting with people from diverse backgrounds? Right. Well, I think that first we have to think about ourselves as human beings.

01:10:06.350 - 01:10:20.980

We are human beings living in this planet Earth, with this–this beautiful planet, where, you know, rivers and oceans and

01:10:20.980 - 01:10:41.450

mountains, and plants and animals and all the beings, and we love all of those—all of those things, living and nonliving; and first say that I am a human being—I am in love with this planet, Planet Earth, and

01:10:42.130 - 01:10:55.900

everything that is in there. Then somebody says, "Okay, yeah–yeah sure you are in this Earth, I'm there too but which country are you from, and what do

01:10:56.210 - 01:11:15.500

you call yourself?" Well, you know, I don't feel that I have to label myself as a brown skin Indian who speaks with an x kind of an accent to believes in this way of meditating and blah blah blah, you know,

01:11:16.520 - 01:11:36.740

it's the other people who want to put me in a box. I don't put myself in a box, I see myself as a human being. If a person from a different culture wanted to transcend the culture, and ethnicity, then they have to begin

01:11:36.740 - 01:11:51.880

there, they have to begin thinking that they are the human being first, sharing this planet, then think about it—I grew up in America, and I'm an American, but I still love everybody who's here.

01:11:52.470 - 01:12:10.850

And–when I say that, I'm kind of making it sugary. So let me bring up a little conflict here. You know, we had insurrection on our Capitol. People went in there to break down the Capitol,

01:12:12.280 - 01:12:24.330

and hang the Vice President, and change the election. There was violence, and damage to our democracy in–in this

01:12:24.330 - 01:12:42.500

insurrection. How do I think about those people? Well, I have to first say that they are all human beings, they have the same consciousness, they have the same spirit. Their brain has certain information and maybe

01:12:42.840 - 01:12:53.800

they have the cultural upbringing that is different, and that's leading them in this way. I got to understand why they're going that way. You know, can I do something to change their mind?

01:12:55.030 - 01:13:08.500

In other words, there are always conflicts. And, we have currently the prejudice and hatred and crime against the Asian

01:13:08.500 - 01:13:24.230

Americans, you know, especially those who look Chinese because the virus came from China, and no fault of yours, and that has happened against the Indians too.

01:13:24.930 - 01:13:44.450

And what we have to do is to say, "Well, how can I transcend it?" So can we teach people to be humans first—that's my message is that we teach humanity,

01:13:46.070 - 01:14:04.380

and we love of each other, and try to understand the different point of view and–and see if we can have a dialogue to–to transcend our cultural differences. You briefly touched upon the current prejudice

01:14:05.960 - 01:14:22.720

against, you know, Asian Americans—and because many health care workers in the US are from foreign countries, do you have any, I guess, comments or perspectives you would like to share regarding the future outlook

01:14:22.920 - 01:14:40.120

of foreign healthcare workers in the United States? Well, I think that every country, if possible, should train its own health manpower.

01:14:40.120 - 01:14:56.360

This is one of the deficiency in our medical education system, that we make it so expensive, and so selective, and so few people are trained, that there is a deficiency in the healthcare workforce, which then–then forces U.S.

01:14:56.360 - 01:15:08.410

to import talent from other countries. I'm the beneficiary of that phenomenon. But you know what—the point that I'm making is that when I led the pediatric

01:15:08.940 - 01:15:23.550

department or worked in medical schools, I always wanted to train the physicians to take care of people in America. Now, those physicians can come from

01:15:23.630 - 01:15:38.580

any segment of the American society. No prejudice there, but the point is that we should train our own health care workforce, and India should do the same thing, China should do the same thing, Africa should

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do the same thing, but the deficiency that I'm talking about in U.S. is even magnified multifold in those countries. I think what you have to do is to have a global approach where the medical education is less expensive,

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more affordable, more accessible, and more people are attracted to it, and they build a workforce in every country. Now, should there be interactions? Absolutely. So, I would love to

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have faculty from China and India and Africa, teaching Americans and Americans teaching them because as I said, biology is a global asset and human health is

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really a global attribute. I think that there should be interactions, but no country should be dependent on another to train its healthcare workforce. Does that make sense?

01:16:43.830 - 01:16:58.310

Yes, absolutely. And I guess, first of all, thank you so much for sharing, but I would just like to ask, is there anything else you would like to share, or I guess any final messages you

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would like to provide? I think it's a good question. My final message is really the summary of what I have said, and that is

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let us all be human beings first, sharing this planet, sharing this Earth, loving its mountains and rivers and plants and animals and people–people of all backgrounds, and then work towards a better

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humanity and a better environment in which we prosper. And just one last question for your descendants, is there any advice or message you would want to

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tell them? That they play their role—they play a role in being the better human beings and–and work towards making a positive impact on people.

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It will same—it will be the same message to them, as I have for anybody else. Thank you so much for sharing and for really for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today and share your oral history with the Houston Asian

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American Archive, so thank you so much for that. Thank you Kevin.