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So today is October 29, 2021. My name is Karen Siu. I am interviewing Dr. Shiao-Chun Tu on

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behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. We're pleased to be documenting your oral history today, so thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. To begin, where and when were you

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born? In 1943, in the province, Henan, in the city by the name, Nanyang, is in the southern part of Henan. So, in your background information, you noted that you have

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10 siblings, how would you describe the household you grew up in? I am the youngest one. So, and the—when the family moved to Taiwan in

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1949, and that was the end of the Civil War and then not—I'm the youngest of 11, one of my sisters died very early before my birth,

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and she was working in the field and then she got hurt and got tetanus. And so for the other, and only five of us moved to Taiwan with our parents, the other five, the elder

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ones. And they were left behind in-in China before—because the, during the Civil War, particularly near the end of the Civil War, and my—the older siblings of mine, they were either

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with their own families and then working somewhere else, or they were with their schools. So the transportation and the communications were cut off from the family. So when the family moved to Taiwan, they were left behind.

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So only five of us moved with our parents to Taiwan, the other half, the other five were left behind in China. I met all of them when-when the United States and China resumed diplomatic relationship.

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So I went back to China to visit them, but there were thirty some years in between. Wow, that's, that's quite something. Okay, so can you-can you describe when-when did you

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move to Taiwan? Do you remember the move? Was it, was it traumatic being evacuated from the mainland? Well, I was six.

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So, being that young, I didn't have any responsibilities and to take care of the other people. And it would be nice if I didn't make trouble for the others, I didn't have to take care of their

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troubles. So, to me, I knew there was something wrong, something bad happening. And people were afraid, people were anxious. And—but I, it didn't hit me that hard until I

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was older to realize how hard it was during the war. But when I was six, I was just a kid and just follow what the—what my parents told

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me to do to the best I could and bear no responsibility for whatever else. How was it being reunited with five-five of your siblings? Oh, that was very dramatic.

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And you often heard this saying that blood is thicker than water. It seemed to be true. And then because when we were separated

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and I was six, and some of my other elder brothers, sisters, they were considerably older than I am, so they remembered me. I didn't remember them very well. And I saw them first time after thirty some

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years and a few minutes passing, I never I never felt we were strangers. I just felt this, a blood bond between us.

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Only took a few minutes, when we sit down and talk to each other, and-and it just it's hard to describe, but you can feel they are your blood siblings.

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That's amazing, after so long. Yes. And I, you know, I left in 1949. I went back to see them in 1982. Wow. Okay. How about what elementary school did you attend?

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Elementary school? The elementary school I attended is in—Taiwan— is an island. I don't know how familiar you are, Taiwan is an island. In the southern part of the island, there's a city by

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the name of Chiayi. Chiayi was not the—it’s about the middle-sized city in Taiwan. And our home was on the borderline of the farmland and the-the city itself.

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The school I attended to and it's about fifty kids in one class and about three quarters of my classmates, they were farmers’ children. And about one quarter of my classmates, including myself, were from

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families with other professions. And this—the school—and I had a great time just playing with my friends, all-all day long and just— Academically,

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I never, I never felt the pressure. I was, I was the number one in my graduating class. We—at first I didn't fit in because I didn't know how to speak Taiwanese, but after two months,

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I—and I learned Taiwanese, and we just played together all day long. That's great. Um, what are some favorite childhood memories you have of, perhaps school, friends,

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or family? Ah, it has to do with my parents’ education philosophy. And you—I don't know you believe this or not. Ever since my childhood, my parents never

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really pushed me to study hard. They just occasionally asked me a few things and they basically just left me alone.

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And I, among my brothers and sisters, and the one of my elder brothers, he is 11 years older than I am. He's the one paid more attention to my

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learning than my parents. He did it, he did it in the nicest way possible. He challenged me, but never really criticized me. He just gave me something to do if I

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can do the—he’ll, he'll give me something harder. And then and just I got along very well. So, basically, I was doing okay, ever since my childhood and my

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parents never really, really pushed me anything. And those were the years you didn't have so many extracurricular activities because so, you go to school, after school is all your playing time. And, you

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know, the homework you, of course you do your homework, but it was never hard to me. And for one major reason is not I am doing exceedingly better than the other—so the-the expectation by the school

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teachers were not so high because three quarters of the—my classmates they were coming from farmers’ families, and they just want the their kids to finish the mandatory education and then

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go back to your family and the work in the, in the land. So the school’s expectations at that time were not that high. I'm talking about elementary school.

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Once you got into high school, it's a different story. How was your high school experience then? I was doing okay. And I think I was in the

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top 5% of the graduating class, but not the very, very top, no more number one because the-the-the high school I attended to is different than here. Here you have junior high, senior high.

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And we also have junior high and senior high, but we have three years of junior high and three years of senior high, all in the same school. And the school I attended to was the-the best. We didn't have any private high school in Chiayi when I was a

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kid. And in the public school, the school I attended to, was the best one in the city. And you go in there by taking the entrance exam, and then—and

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you—they only select a certain percentage of the top score. And I got into there and so there are many good students. I’m still doing okay. I think I was doing okay, but not the very top anymore.

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I will say probably top five percent. Okay, before I move into talking about your college, colleges, I want to go back to your parents for a moment. What were some of the values that your parents emphasized in, in

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your upbringing? Well, my parents, especially my mother is the—she was the traditional type of mother, help your husband, help your children, and taking care of the family. And, and that's

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basically what she was. My father, her life story—his life story, I think—something—I think it’s very dramatic. He came—my grandparents, his father,

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my father's father was very poor. But my grandad, he, he was a farm worker. He didn't own his own land, he worked for other people, for some other land owners. And his family was

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very, very poor. Yet, whenever his friend asked him to borrow money from him, he always did that. And on his dying bed, he called my father. My father was my grandfather's first son.

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He called my father and asked my father to burn all the borrowing notes and burn it in front of him. He said, “Don't ask them to

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repay anything. Money is nothing,” even though he himself was very poor. So, that influenced my father, my father, never paid attention to fame and the fortune.

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And he was a very, very smart person. He came from a very poor family. They were almost, I'm not exaggerating. My—according to my father, they were

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constantly, you know, being hungry. And being the first son in his family, he was expected to finish the elementary school, stay home, work, and help the

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rest of the family. But he was number one all the time, elementary school, going to senior high, going to junior high. He was number one in the class all the time. And when, when he was ready to go into college, that was the

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very important decision. My-my grandfather already passed away. My grandma didn't want my father to go. She said, “I need you to help

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the family”. And then my father's teacher went to convince her say, “Give him four more years, then he can help your farm, the family in a much, much bigger way than him to work in the farm right now”.

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So my father finished his college education being an educator, and then eventually went into politics and became a national legislator, which is the same as the senator here. So for poor farm

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workers families’ son become a national legislator— that was miraculous to me. And he always, he never, he never paid attention to, to wealth, and he just wanted to get things down right.

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So, he even though he never pushed me anything, just by example, that set up a good example for me. So you-you must give

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yourself respect by doing the right thing. Be critical to yourself than anybody more or anybody else. And he-he's just showed me by example.

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Wow, that's amazing. Even though he never discipline me ever, I never was a bad kid, I didn't have any bad habits. The worst thing I can do is to go to movies once in a while.

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Never you—never want to get into fights, never want to cheat anybody and, and never got into bad habits. Some of my brothers helped me to be to do the right thing as well I mean, the— so I had good

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family education. Thank you so much for sharing these stories. That's amazing. So the—for being a national legislator, actually, my father was very proud.

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He said he was probably if not the, but one of the most the poorest national legislators, in the country. Yeah, he just never paid

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attention to that. Okay, so pivoting now to your college days, thinking back to your time at National Taiwan University, how was, how was attending the university

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for you? The, the education system in Taiwan at that time is for the high school, junior high, and the senior high, and particularly for college, you have to take the entrance

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exam. For the college entrance examinations, it was handled nationally by the government, not by individual school. So, all the graduating class students, for those that wish

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to go to college, they must take the same entrance exams. There are three different categories, like the science and the engineering being one, then you have agricultural, life sciences and then though that being the second one, then you have

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the literature, the social science, and politics, financial being another one. The system changed over time a little bit from three category, it would eventually reclassified into four.

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But it—at the my time, there were three categories, and I choose, I-I choose the first category in life, in science and engineering. And so, National

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Taiwan University was regarded, is still regarded as the best university in Taiwan, and the—in my year, 1% of the high school graduate got into National University. So I was lucky to get in.

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Well, first, some defining moments for you while you were attending National Taiwan University? Well, National Taiwan University is a very unusual university. People have a saying, “it’s so hard to

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get in, it’s so easy to come out.” Their education system—a philosophy is very much closer to my father's education philosophy. He told me what is important, but he never pushed me.

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In National Taiwan University, every class, you only have to take the exam twice per semester, in the middle—first in the middle of the semester, second, in the end of the semester, that's it.

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You took two exams for, for the course, unless the professor insists his own system, that they can do. But the official requirement is you took two exams per semester for each

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course. Also depends on the professor, whether you attend classes or not, some of them they care very much. They call the roll every class. Some of them they don't care if

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you don't want to learn that's your problem. If you want to learn, if you learn well, even you don't come very often if you learn well that's fine with me. So it depends on the professor.

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And it's not just in college, ever since I was in, in high school. I have a very unbalanced study habits. I studied very, very hard for the

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subject that interested me, but pay not much attention to the other classes. I don't mean I totally ignore them, I just didn't put in enough effort I just get by, if I

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get 70% fine, 80% fine. For the ones I really like, anything less than 95% is, is a failure to me. So I was never good in history, geography, literature,

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sorry, no offense. And social study, I was never good in that, but I was really pay my attention to physics, chemistry, mathematics, and biology, that kind of thing.

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So is, is the same with me, for my high schools, and for my college education. What was your specialty in the biosciences?

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In National Taiwan University, we did not have Department of Biochemistry for the understudy. We- we did have biochemistry as a major in graduate training, but not for under.

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And I went to the next—the nearest the department possible to biochemistry, that's agricultural chemistry. Under agricultural chemistry, they are eight different laboratories, you can choose to

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specialize in different aspects of agricultural chemistry. So my college education in my senior year, I choose to major in human nutrition.

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Then when I after the, after the-the NTU, National Taiwan University, and all the male students, we have to serve our mandatory military service.

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And maybe you-you notice, the female students did not have that requirement, but we have to participate in this mandatory service. So after college, I went into military

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service for a year and three months and then I came to United States for my graduate study. So, I like to ask you about now your immigration to the US.

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So, when did you move to the US? And how, and why did it happen? And the-the year, I came to the United States 1967. At that time, the economic situation in Taiwan

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was not very good. It was very difficult to—for all the college graduating students to find good jobs, just not enough good jobs available. And the living standards were still low.

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And so, in addition to that, I want to go on with my graduate study, whether in Taiwan or in the United States. I did—I wasn't going to just stop after college, I want to go further in my education.

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So, coming to United States was a high hope for most of us, you might—in my time. And we have 72 kids from my class, agricultural chemistry

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department—we graduated in 1966. Then, we came to the States in 1967, because of the military service, and in between, then in 1966, my class we have 72 people and we

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have 40 some PhDs. So most of us came to-to the—to study abroad, United States being the number one choice, some went to Europe, some went to Japan, but altogether we counted we have 48.

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We have 48 PhDs in my class, which is not unusual which is typical for-for student graduating from National Taiwan University at that time. It just simply

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just, you cannot find enough jobs in Taiwan. Where specifically did you move first to in the, in the US? I went to Cornell, Ithaca, New York. A beautiful place, except in the winter.

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It’s a long and very cold winter. Have you ever visited that part of the country? Uh, yes, but not, not during the winter. What-what months did you go?

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During the summer. Oh, good, beautiful. The—in the fall in that place is so beautiful, except in the winter, it’s long and the cold and minus 24 Fahrenheit is not unusual.

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And then also is along the snow belt, so sometime the snow will cover your automobile. You don't know where you parked, then you're in trouble. So what were some— you experienced

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weather challenges. Um, what were some other challenges that you experienced? Well, that came back to my own fault because I-I told you I have unbalanced study habit.

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So, my English was not very good, I got by and I finished the TOEFL test, I satisfied the requirement, I came to—I got my government visa. But my English wasn't really not very good, especially

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the listening comprehension. When you speak if you are brave enough, if you are shameless enough, then you can always express yourself even though you are in broken English, you can express what you

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mean and people will eventually understand you. But listening, you will try to understand what the other people try to convey to you, it’s controlled by them not by you. You either get it or you don't.

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So when I came to Ithaca, and I-I immediately realized my English was not good enough. So when the professor spoke the

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third sentence, then I was still thinking about the meaning of the first sentence, so that's not very good. So I did one thing, most of the students from Taiwan didn't do, which I don't know if you

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notice or not, it's the Chinese graduate students, they tend to room with each other. And then they go to school to speak English. When they come to their apartment, they speak Chinese.

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And I didn't want to do that, so I decided to work for an old couple. I roomed with them and lived in their home. They gave me a—one room.

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And I work one day for them per week and so that substantially cut down my rent. And money- saving is one thing, but the my major intention was

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they-they were old couples — they didn’t have much to do. So they have all the time and the patience to talk to me in English, to correct my English, and explaining things to me. And after half a year that really helped me.

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But initially, I was really—it was very tough because I try to take notes as much as I can, as much as I can follow, and then went back to my apartment and try to make up for everything

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I lost and it was just very difficult. And so I say, “Wow, let me improve my English.” I did that for half a year and then it was really one of the best decisions that

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I've made. Did you experience any cultural shock when you moved to the US? Yes. And the people were very polite to each other.

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In Taiwan, and in China as well, you may realize that yourself, people speak with louder voices, even when they are not arguing with them. When they are excited, when they are happy, when they-they tend to speak in high

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volume of voice, even speak on the phone. And because of the population density, people sometimes they have to cut in line, fight for a seat,

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fight for the entrance to something. And it just in daily lives that you are used to that kind of the thing that once come to United States, you realize, oh, our people are so polite to each other, and

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people speak so softly. Then, you are going to see something else that is people are treating you very nice until you invaded their territory, or you invaded their freedom,

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personal freedom, then there was such a strike, they'll tell you, when they are unhappy with you about something, they are much more straightforward than the— than the Chinese people, Chinese people sometimes will

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go around it and they tell you and basically they are very unhappy with you but they’re-they're saying things that are going around the subject, but here, if they don't feel-feel, they're

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happy with you, they will let you know. Now, that's fine. I mean, that's, that's fine with me. Related to this, did you experience any racism

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in school, in the workplace, or in the community in general, while in the US? Ah, the—when I was in graduate school, I did not feel all that much.

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And the—I have very nice professors. I have very nice classmates at Cornell. And, but when I—what—after that, I did my—I

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majored in biochemistry at the Cornell, after my PhD, I went to Harvard for my postdoctoral training. Even then, I did feel very much accepted. When you go out, when you go out to hunt for an apartment,

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when you go out shopping sometimes, when you—occasionally you encounter something not so pleasant, but nothing all that serious, they just sometimes they say something could being interpreted as offensive.

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But never really in a very, very rude way. You know what I mean? But so, so even in my, in my postdoctoral training four years and a half I didn't feel

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too bad. But once you looking for a job, once you begin in, in a world you have to constantly succeed by winning the competition, then you begin to sense

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that. When I, when I look for a job after—during the later years of my postdoctoral training, I was looking for a teaching job. I know I want to be a professor. And the—I went through many interviews

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and many in many of the places, I was always the number two choice. It may have something to do with my last name, Dr.

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Tu, and the factor I was number two was I don't know, I don't know if I was truly number two for whatever reason. And—but, and then

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in the, in the school, sometimes you feel a little bit like that. I think I’m one of the lucky ones, I never really encounter truly serious discrimination. And the one time I was—I remember when my daughter was young, when-when she

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was three. We were driving in some parts of Texas and she had bleeding nose. We went to a gas station

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and ask them to use your restroom. And so, I told them say, “my daughter has a bleeding nose, can we use your bathroom to, to wash her up and to cool her forehead?”, they say, “no.”

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Another time, I and some of our friends, we already reserved the the camping grounds in, in public in the commercial campground. And once we arrived, they refused us.

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They said, “no, we don't have any place for you.” Since back then, and you can still sense it. Wow. Okay.

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I'm going back a little bit. How was it for you attending Cornell, for your masters and PhD in comparison to National Taiwan University, however— It’s quite different, yeah.

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Like I say, National Taiwan University, you know, w-we will we joke about that one ourselves, “it is hard to get in, easy to come out”. At Cornell, and the—suddenly, you know, you are among some of the best students there.

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And it-it is quite different in grad—you are PhD student yourself. In a graduate study, it’s something that the teacher didn't really give the information to you. They teach you how to learn yourself, right?

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So, it all depends how hard you push yourself. And, but the good professor, even though they don't push you, but let you know what their standards are. You can, you

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can study without me pushing you, but you better, you know, live up to my expectation. Otherwise, there's no compromise. I mean, I bet you know what my standards are.

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I don't look over your shoulder constantly. So I was really—is, and I don't feel bad admitting in my four year of college. I play more than study, I did well, and the—out of

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the eight semesters over there, I've got to my class number one twice, I did well, but I really didn’t study to gain the knowledge, I studied to get to scoring the test, so it's a

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different kind of study. But when I got to graduate school, that was the time I know, this is for real. Now, this is not for play. So I really try to better myself, I pushed myself.

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I never studied that hard until I went to graduate school, I just want you to know, to know more, to know more to do better. And I pushed myself very, very hard.

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I work extremely hard when I was in graduate school. My professor, my major advisor, I'll be forever grateful to him. And also my, my advisor for my

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postdoctoral training. I'll be forever grateful to both of them. They were so nice to me, and very patient, very nice to me. But yet, they set the highest standard for me.

00:38:41.450 - 00:38:57.060

And they told me, I should be even more critical for my own work than-than they are, so I carry that lesson throughout my academic career. I think I'm honest, that I can say I am probably

00:38:58.280 - 00:39:17.120

the worst critic of my own work. I learned that from my two advisors. How was it— so you, you

00:39:17.120 - 00:39:35.370

went from Cornell to being a fellow at Harvard, which is quite an achievement. How did you attain that honor? Was it because of research or perhaps teaching excellence? I think well, and in my graduate study, and they

00:39:35.480 - 00:39:53.120

usually it depends on— number is deceiving sometime, usually on the average, but you get a soft feeling about it. On the average if a working student can have two or three high quality

00:39:53.570 - 00:40:08.300

refereed publications that sometime is considered sufficient for a PhD degree. I got seven. So I think I did well for my graduate study.

00:40:09.350 - 00:40:29.720

So when I was about to graduate from Cornell, I sent out a number of application letters, including the one I eventually went to and have. And so—during the last, I think,

00:40:31.170 - 00:40:51.240

I think near my graduation from Cornell, my advisor sent me alone without him, just sent me alone to Germany for international meeting, to present something with it and

00:40:51.690 - 00:41:09.570

so my wife came with me. And on the plane, we were sitting in different rows. And then next to her was a gentleman and reading a lot of documents during the flight.

00:41:13.120 - 00:41:34.110

And my wife carried out a conversation with him. And that gentleman said, he said, “Are you by yourself?”, my wife says, “my husband is in different row back

00:41:34.240 - 00:41:48.060

there.”“What did he do?” He’s-he’s, “he was a graduate student and coming to this meeting”. That gentleman said, “Oh, I am too, to come to this meeting,” and my wife asked, “what’s your name?” and he said so and so.

00:41:48.540 - 00:42:02.040

And my wife said, “ah, you know, you are one of the people my husband applied to,” and they said, he said, “What's your husband's name?” She said, Shiao-Chun Tu. So then the professor asked

00:42:02.040 - 00:42:19.450

my wife, “did you type the letter for him?” My wife say, “how do you know?” You typed my name wrong . And, and then, my wife, so, so sorry, so sorry. And then later on after the, after meeting,

00:42:19.980 - 00:42:39.170

he accepted me. My wife told me said, “You owe me because I typed your name wrong, so he remembered you.” That's her story. That's great. So, so that's, that's one interesting story.

00:42:39.170 - 00:42:57.040

My wife always claimed the credit for me being accepted by— So, so when did you move to Houston, and then become an Assistant Professor at the University of Houston. I came to

00:42:57.510 - 00:43:14.030

Houston in 1977. And immediately after my postdoctoral training at Harvard, and well, I don't know how to put—I have a total of six offers,

00:43:16.130 - 00:43:32.490

including some universities with much bigger name than University of Houston. And I had a very difficult time to choose. And eventually, they are two major

00:43:32.490 - 00:43:47.470

reasons. And I say this, some of the viewers may not be happy, because I-I like to be in university. I don't want, I don't—I prefer not to enter medical school

00:43:48.100 - 00:44:03.020

because I'm not an MD, I'm a PhD, so that helped me to narrow down my choice. That's one thing. Another thing that came to University of Houston, the

00:44:04.340 - 00:44:18.660

university—Houston was at that time in 1977, the fifth largest city in the United States, of course, is the largest one in Texas.

00:44:20.950 - 00:44:37.090

And I, that’s a major reason I came to Houston because I truly believe every big city must have at least one top rank, large public university and the Houston is the one.

00:44:38.760 - 00:44:53.360

It has many rooms for improvement, for growth. At that time, University of Houston was regarded as a second tier research university, but I believe it has a lot of potential for

00:44:53.490 - 00:45:08.310

growth. And in such an environment what little contribution I can make probably can be valued better than being a professor in Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, and Yale.

00:45:09.360 - 00:45:26.120

And in those places, you don't get tenure until you're a full professor. And in most of the schools around the United States, you get it, basically, you get tenure when you're promoted to associate. But in Harvard, you don't get tenure until you're full.

00:45:26.820 - 00:45:43.820

So I think, and if I come to University of Houston, then which I believe has a great chance for significant improvements. In its academic standards,

00:45:44.030 - 00:46:03.060

and its prestige, and whatever little contribution I can make probably can be valued and that's the reason I came. And I served here thirty some years and I have several other job

00:46:03.440 - 00:46:16.870

offers during those thirty some years. And the fact that I eventually retired from here, saying that I, generally, I think I made the right

00:46:16.870 - 00:46:30.010

decision. There were some regrets, and I don't, I don't know anybody out there live without any regret. There were some regrets, but the positive things outweigh the negative things. I think I made the right

00:46:30.060 - 00:46:47.770

decision to come. And indeed, University of Houston is now a nice, first tier research university. So, you began your long career at University of Houston as Assistant Professor then Associate, then

00:46:47.770 - 00:47:02.130

Chair of the Department of Biochem, chemical, Biophysical Sciences. And then finally, Professor Emeritus. How's it to stay in one, one department, one institution over the course of so many years?

00:47:03.330 - 00:47:20.720

And did you witness any changes in your department and the university generally? Well there are—I mean, the—we, like many other schools, and we allow professors to go on sabbatical leave, I took several of the sabbatical leaves.

00:47:21.550 - 00:47:36.180

And I went to UC Santa Cruz, I went to the Hong Kong University of Science and the Technology.

00:47:38.390 - 00:47:55.090

And I went to one, I went to four different universities in Taiwan for my sabbatical leaves. So that was the very—usually, you know, every six or seven years, you are allowed to go on sabbatical that I did.

00:47:55.720 - 00:48:09.190

So I, I took advantage of that. And that's the time you meet with different people and to broaden your scope, and also you learn some new things.

00:48:11.690 - 00:48:24.160

You get into some new fields, you learn some new techniques, and meet with talk to different people. And every people think differently, so you can learn from other people all the time, you can learn from

00:48:24.160 - 00:48:39.750

your students in the classroom. And teaching is not one way and sometimes they have novel ideas never occur to you. So, even though I stay with University of Houston,

00:48:41.130 - 00:48:53.040

and—but I took advantage of that kind of thing. I enjoy teaching. Many people they think, teaching is in the way of research. I don't believe that. I never believed

00:48:53.040 - 00:49:09.440

that- for a second, I paid great attention to teaching. And I also like to learn from other people. And so, so that's fine. I didn't feel I was isolated.

00:49:14.210 - 00:49:35.990

Could you describe your-your research specialties? I'm, I'm a little bit idealistic. I'm interested in basic research. On top of that one, I particularly am

00:49:35.990 - 00:49:55.460

partial for thing that can be rationalized, things that can be explained explicitly in basic scientific terms. I don't want to offend you, I don't mean that at all, it's just my personal

00:49:55.560 - 00:50:10.370

liking. So, so I, for example, I don't want to study social science, it's so hard so complex, social work, you're looking at not just an individual

00:50:10.410 - 00:50:27.370

but looking at a group of people, much bigger picture, difficult to explain things and I can explain things like two plus two equals four, there's, there's no argument. So, I choose in the field of biochemistry.

00:50:27.420 - 00:50:41.810

In biochemistry, you can go from bio to chemistry and everything in between, it’s still a very broad field. I choose enzymology. And is to learn how enzymes work.

00:50:43.250 - 00:50:58.760

And you learn that by understanding the enzyme structure, you learn that by understanding the enzyme chemical mechanism, then you marry the two together trying to understand why a particular enzyme with

00:50:58.760 - 00:51:11.720

such a structure can do this, and many of those questions can be answered in a very basic scientific term and that is my challenge. So, I choose to

00:51:12.450 - 00:51:24.900

be an enzymologist. And not just that, but I choose to try to understand the chemical and the physical mechanisms, how enzyme catalyzed reactions and

00:51:26.870 - 00:51:44.530

that's my major research emphasis, but on the side, I also deal with some biotechnology problems. So, those are just branched out from my basic research.

00:51:44.890 - 00:52:03.060

Once in a while, I said, “well this can be a part of something in technology term.” So we did that I have, I don't remember six or seven patents. Not a whole lot, but I have six or seven patents. And four other colleagues from the same

00:52:03.310 - 00:52:24.710

department. And the five of us, we had about—we set up a biotechnology company in Houston in 2000, year 2000. Very lucky for us, most of the operational

00:52:24.710 - 00:52:44.040

fund, we got it by grant money, not out of our own pocket. If it's out of our own pocket, I couldn't afford it. And the—so we were very lucky, we got some very good grants, and that carried us for eight years.

00:52:44.770 - 00:53:02.540

In the year 2008, somebody else bought our company. So we are one of the luckier ones because in the field of biotechnology, more than 90% of the small companies

00:53:03.230 - 00:53:23.190

die. And we didn't really die, no, they-they bought us out. So we're still lucky in the—so, to make a long story short, the-the major

00:53:24.360 - 00:53:40.350

emphasis of my study is the basic enzymology. A small part of my research is biotechnology. How did you move from your research specialties to-to creating your startup

00:53:40.400 - 00:53:56.100

company? It’s a good marriage. For the five of us, we have myself is, the general biochemistry and the general

00:53:56.100 - 00:54:14.590

biophysics, plus my interest in-in spectroscopy. Those are my area, another person is in molecular biology. Another person is in synthetic chemistry. Another person is in computer simulation.

00:54:15.210 - 00:54:29.680

Another person is a chemical engineer. So the five of us, we got together and not to bore you, just in one sentence or two. Basically, what we are specializing, our work

00:54:29.680 - 00:54:50.420

specializing is to use spectroscopy and to use enzyme to do a very, very fast, very, very large number of tests to determine

00:54:50.820 - 00:55:05.640

the human genome DNA sequence. At that time, the available technology will take about several weeks to one month for a group of

00:55:06.160 - 00:55:22.920

twenty some scientists to finish the human genome sequence. We want to do it in a few hours. So, we-we proved the, the concept,

00:55:24.670 - 00:55:44.250

and at a much smaller scale. Our scale has to be magnified at 100s of thousand or million times or many, some larger scale, in order to do within a few hours a

00:55:44.250 - 00:55:58.520

real time DNA human genome sequencing. We didn't have the expertise for that kind of software, the hardware design. So, somebody else bought us out, I can—I cannot tell you who

00:55:58.520 - 00:56:12.980

did it. But, so we lasted for eight years, that was a nice experience. So, as-as co-founder of VisiGen Biotechnologies,

00:56:15.700 - 00:56:32.200

did you face challenges between—you taught, taught for so many years at a public university, did you face any challenges in creating a private company and commercializing?

00:56:33.870 - 00:56:50.230

Actually, the—it's not just our university, and all over the world and the people try to do the technology transfer from, from the academic units to industrial units.

00:56:50.990 - 00:57:07.210

And that's how you in a sense, that's how you repay the society. You don't just take grant money to study for your own fun, hopefully you can do some good. And the basic research whether the thing

00:57:07.210 - 00:57:20.360

you're interested in whether that will do some good for the general public or not, sometimes you never know, sometimes twenty or thirty years after or suddenly people find out something, “Oh, is that this comes from

00:57:20.360 - 00:57:33.460

that kind of a weird to study many, many years ago, now is paying off”. So, so what we do is it's not something against the universities—

00:57:33.460 - 00:57:47.760

well, it’s actually highly recommended, highly encouraged by not just our university, no, all over the world are trying to do the technology transfer. And so and we were lucky in that we were able to find an

00:57:47.870 - 00:58:01.180

outlet, eventually, somebody took it from us and they didn't just go on to die. And so that was very rewarding. Now we didn't get anything other than

00:58:02.350 - 00:58:21.630

encouragement from the university, but you do that, not compromise your own duties. So-so that outside commitment should never be an excuse to compromise

00:58:21.630 - 00:58:38.860

your own duty. So you received a number of patents, could you talk a little bit about them, perhaps which ones you are most proud of? Well, I think the one we were

00:58:38.980 - 00:59:01.980

most proud of was the one eventually we formed the company and for the real time single molecule DNA sequencing. And then when I was postdoc-ing I got one patent, and then when I was in my own position at the University of

00:59:02.030 - 00:59:17.460

Houston before we formed the company, I had two or three other patents on my own, but none of them really find that industrial home, until this

00:59:18.450 - 00:59:36.800

VisiGen company. And so, by the way, the patent, only a single digit in the area of biotechnology and all the patents only a single digit percent of that eventually find industrial applications.

00:59:38.750 - 00:59:57.680

It’s a low single digit, and like a 1 or 2% eventually find true applications. So, some-some time, you know, just some good ideas floating in the air, never really find a home, that's most of the

00:59:57.750 - 01:00:14.910

cases. But this was—and we were not the only people working for the single molecule DNA sequencing. I think at that time, they were about seven or eight of us competing to achieve the same goal, that is,

01:00:16.050 - 01:00:33.640

to finish the DNA human genome sequencing within hours. And the—there was a review article published in prestigious Nature.

01:00:35.120 - 01:00:50.160

And it was a review article on the subject of faster DNA genome sequencing and our work was revealed in the article. So, it’s—that's one thing

01:00:52.440 - 01:01:11.530

I'm proud of as much as my own work, they are a set of five of us. And we have a twenty some people team working for us outside of the campus. So you've received a number of awards, publications and patents, were

01:01:11.530 - 01:01:27.480

there any other defining moments for you during your, your career? The defining moment is the—is-is a self-satisfaction you gain by putting out things you are proud of,

01:01:28.030 - 01:01:48.090

like I say, I try to be most critical about my own work. And I have a somewhat—I truly believe if you put your name on the publication, you are responsible for every single word in that, in

01:01:48.090 - 01:02:02.300

that paper. Often, somebody says something wrong. When I encountered them, say, “oh, and now we have a number of other co-authors, and that part of work is not mine.” I don't buy that

01:02:02.350 - 01:02:17.810

argument. Choose your collaborator carefully, don't know something you learn it, and if you put your name on, you're responsible for the entire paper, you cannot say that part of the work doesn't come from

01:02:19.170 - 01:02:36.570

me. And it may have a partial meaning, but never is this should, should not be something and you are totally innocent about. So, I-I don't put out any paper lightly, published

01:02:37.920 - 01:02:52.700

something I'm happy with, with that product. Is it, is it good satisfaction to me, may not be to other people, but I am proud of what I have published.

01:02:54.020 - 01:03:13.850

Another thing I must emphasize being a professor, even bigger pleasure is to see your students, the people I have trained to do great things. Make me look back some of my students are really doing very, very well and really

01:03:14.150 - 01:03:33.250

made me very, very happy. Throughout your teaching and mentoring experience, what do you think is some guidance that is most needed by students, more specifically by foreign students

01:03:33.430 - 01:03:48.190

and Asian students? The Asian students—one thing is, lucky for us in the field of science, when we publish something or

01:03:48.270 - 01:04:08.150

when we submit something like a proposal, and you must have a sufficiently good English skill. Otherwise, you have, that will be a severe handicap for you because you have to communicate

01:04:08.950 - 01:04:24.900

with people to tell people why you are good, you're doing good things. And you're doing things better than many other people. Otherwise, why should they be giving you the grant money, not to other people.

01:04:25.150 - 01:04:42.770

So you have to tell them what's good, what's great about your work or about your idea. So that's a communication, that communication is not for you to understand. The communication is for others to understand. So, you must think when you write something, don't think in

01:04:42.770 - 01:04:57.520

your own terms. Think about the other people when they see that, how do they perceive the meaning of your presentation. That goes for written document, that goes for oral

01:04:57.520 - 01:05:16.970

presentation. Make your key points clear and emphasize the key point. And so, particularly for Chinese and Asian students, and I think they should pay attention to not just language as a language, but also a philosophy.

01:05:18.930 - 01:05:31.720

The principle for presentation is for other people to understand, it’s not for you to understand. And remove the ambiguity. If you can say something clearly

01:05:31.790 - 01:05:52.090

in five words, don't use ten words, you just study the density of what your presentation. And if you say something, hopefully, there's no second way to interpret. And I always tell my students,

01:05:53.780 - 01:06:06.430

there's no second chance to make a first impression. If you make the first impression wrong, it’s so much harder for you to overcome that. To get back on the right track, just do the right.

01:06:08.150 - 01:06:23.100

Don't—when people ask you a question, when I have go to oral quantifying exam, and for graduate students, the thing I didn't want to hear is when you ask them something, they don't know the answer, then start giving you a lot of things

01:06:24.100 - 01:06:35.830

turning, saying this, saying that, and not nothing is to the point. That's worse than just saying, I don't know. But if you can help me with this and that, maybe I can figure it out.

01:06:36.110 - 01:06:50.990

That's a better answer, instead of, this and that, nothing to the point. That's the one. So that's, that's a beautiful, for doing science, then that apply to social

01:06:50.990 - 01:07:07.210

science to whatever —not just natural science. And that's why they call it a PhD, doctorate of philosophy. And—show them your logic. It didn't happen to me, but happened to one of my classmates at Cornell,

01:07:08.700 - 01:07:25.510

one professor asked him during his oral qualifying exam, “Give me an estimate, how many barbers there are in the United States?” Basically, the professor was not looking at the exact number,

01:07:26.090 - 01:07:40.870

but basically, you know, the population in the United States, you know, approximately, what's the age group, and how often people will go on for

01:07:40.970 - 01:07:59.930

haircut. So, you divided it down, then you can have an estimate how many people approximately—it may be off by a factor of 10, maybe by sort of 100. But if you have a logical trend of thinking, so you can take

01:07:59.970 - 01:08:15.460

the population, and then consider the difference in gender difference, in age group, and then you eventually come to an estimate how many people are seeking for haircut per day. And then you know the

01:08:15.460 - 01:08:29.830

average barber probably can handle ten customer or whatever, then you have an estimate for the number of barbers in the United States. I think that, that professor was looking for, he was not really

01:08:30.330 - 01:08:49.900

looking for a number. He was looking how you analyze the situation, how you come up with you answer. That's good, that's a good question to me. So, I try to teach my students how to learn by yourself and I also try

01:08:49.900 - 01:09:07.000

to show them by example. And not just, not just only do good science, but do science, do science good, science right. Don't steal other people's work, always acknowledge other people's achievement, and

01:09:09.450 - 01:09:22.020

the—so do science right. And don't, for example, I'm giving you one example. If you come up with a new technique, you published

01:09:23.540 - 01:09:34.940

some people use your technique with a tiny bit alteration, from there on, they only cite their own work, they don't cite your work anymore. That's, that's cheating.

01:09:40.230 - 01:09:55.180

In the end, you have to feel good about yourself, I learned that one from my father. Don't do anything you don't—you lose your self-respect. Acknowledge other people and it doesn't make you look small.

01:10:00.180 - 01:10:17.430

So, moving on, on your CV, it-it states that you were on the board of the Evergreen Chinese School from 1984 to ’87. Can you talk a bit about your time on the board of the Chinese school

01:10:18.320 - 01:10:32.170

and— It's, it's a private, private school. And the-the reason for that is, those are the years my daughter, one was in that school learning Chinese.

01:10:32.460 - 01:10:47.640

So, my wife was a teacher and also an officer and the manage some of the administration things. And I came on the board for-for a few years. And that basically would—so

01:10:48.230 - 01:11:04.200

everybody chip in, trying to make the school work. And we are we always believe that, you know, the we are in the United States, and our, my daughter,

01:11:06.030 - 01:11:19.650

I have only one child, my daughter. And she was born in Boston, and she is the bonafide American and the—however, Chinese

01:11:20.990 - 01:11:39.110

was her root. And the—by learning Chinese, she’ll understand her past, she’ll understand a brand new world. And she can benefit from the

01:11:40.320 - 01:11:53.010

many thousand years of Chinese culture. It only helped her. So when—so she, she needs to understand where she and ancestors came from and what, what's

01:11:54.000 - 01:12:12.900

the culture—and so it only will enrich her instead of detract her, from her growth as a person. And so now she was in the Evergreen Chinese school and

01:12:13.970 - 01:12:29.570

because it's a small private school, and we—it lives on donations, and then many people just work for, for the school. And so we're putting a lot of time to make that.

01:12:30.660 - 01:12:45.480

Once my daughter went through that system, so we just moved on with her. We so, we-we were only very active with Chinese Evergreen school for-for

01:12:46.720 - 01:13:04.980

a number of years after my daughter graduated and we just slowly step down the other younger families takeover. What do you think about the way Chinese American

01:13:06.930 - 01:13:21.780

children are taught Chinese after school? Do you do you think it's effective? Ah, the school is by itself is never enough. You learn something eventually you forget, you have to

01:13:21.890 - 01:13:34.400

use it. And the—if you don't use it, then eventually you lose most of it. And so the—at home as a very important training ground.

01:13:36.300 - 01:13:54.670

And the—so like my daughter, she's good with speaking and listening, but her writing is still, I mean, the written language is still pretty bad. And that also has something to do with her

01:13:54.670 - 01:14:11.940

being the only child because if she doesn't have any other people aside from the—my wife and I to help her, to carry out some of the Chinese speaking and the

01:14:11.940 - 01:14:30.050

writing practices and—but she learned, she learned sufficient to-to read, but she just doesn't remember well. And she can recognize—we took her to Taiwan, we took her to mainland China, many different places, she recognized the

01:14:30.910 - 01:14:45.930

road signs and the restaurants and all that other important things. So, so it helps. The most important thing is it's such a treasure, I mean,

01:14:45.930 - 01:15:02.510

you learn one more language, you learn so much more beyond the language itself. Speaking about your daughter, first off, what's her name, if you could tell us?

01:15:02.920 - 01:15:19.900

How did she—and how did you educate your daughter, as in what are some values that you emphasized in your daughter's upbringing? That's hard question because I never really gave, gave her serious lectures of any kind.

01:15:21.200 - 01:15:42.170

I think my wife and I basically—I am more or less, you know, pattern myself after my parents, just try to show her by example. And I, to this day, I don't think I

01:15:42.170 - 01:15:59.990

have ever given my, my daughter any serious lecture. Just show her we care, we love her, we-we pay attention, we try to help her anyway we c-can. And of course, sometimes we don't think she was

01:16:00.060 - 01:16:14.300

doing the right thing we would let her know. But I don't think I use lecture or discipline type of thing. By

01:16:15.960 - 01:16:28.750

the way, she graduated from Rice. Ah, what-what did she graduate in? Double major, biology and the art. What, what a double major .

01:16:29.690 - 01:16:43.570

What is a, what is your daughter— Biology and art. What is your daughter now doing? And this—she, you know, what her profession is now? Architecture. Oh, wow.

01:16:44.830 - 01:16:50.400

That's fascinating. She's a licensed architect. Oh, good for her. Wow, good for her.

01:16:53.850 - 01:17:06.440

Um, so another question I have? Do you belong to any church or have any religious affiliations? No, the answer is no.

01:17:08.040 - 01:17:29.870

I believe you should always be honest. Be nice to the other people and—but I don't have any religious belief. Okay, and what-what do you do for

01:17:30.260 - 01:17:42.250

relaxation in your free time? Like, what have you been doing since, since your retirement? Gardening is one thing.

01:17:43.920 - 01:17:59.100

Traveling is another, except now we have this pandemic. And so for over almost two years now we haven't been doing any serious traveling, but eventually it’ll pass and I think

01:17:59.780 - 01:18:16.880

the—and there's a Chinese saying, “traveling one thousand miles is better than reading ten thousand books”. So traveling you it's not just for enjoyment, you also learn a lot of things.

01:18:18.250 - 01:18:35.750

Sometimes when you go to the very poor, very turbulent places, but you can also appreciate the, what you have now. And you just learn so much as the—what you read

01:18:37.270 - 01:18:51.640

in the press in the media, it's never a full coverage, there's always some hidden stories. They may tell you the truth, but it can never be the whole truth. Be it and

01:18:51.640 - 01:19:08.140

there are so many different aspects to everything. Sometimes you, you heard so much about A or so much about B once you get there then, oh no, this is not really the full story. I don't like politics.

01:19:08.950 - 01:19:23.440

I want I really don't want to like politics . So I never give people—I don't want to debate with anybody about religion or politics, but I make my own decision.

01:19:24.520 - 01:19:43.870

But you make your decision based on your conscious. How was it for, for you and your family living-living in Houston compared to other places in the US? I grew up in Taiwan.

01:19:45.160 - 01:20:02.160

And Taiwan, the weather pattern is very similar to Houston, except the Houston in the winter could be a little bit colder than Taiwan and—but Taiwan, especially in

01:20:02.500 - 01:20:17.740

Taipei, is just as hot and humid in the summer as in Houston. And after five and a half years, in Ithaca, New York, after four

01:20:17.740 - 01:20:33.650

years in Cambridge, Massachusetts, I still like the hot weather better than the cold weather. So, Houston weather-wise doesn't bother me. And even though I don't like the humidity, but it didn't bother me all that

01:20:33.840 - 01:20:49.110

much, it’s similar to the place I grew up in Taiwan. I don't like the cold countries. And the—also in Houston, now it’s the fourth largest city in the

01:20:49.240 - 01:21:07.750

United states, but you look at the traffic, you look at the crime rate, you look at the cost of living, you look at the job opportunities, Houston is actually pretty

01:21:07.750 - 01:21:24.640

good. So be grateful to whatever you have. Don't complain about the things you cannot have. We don't have weather like San Diego over here, but we have we do have

01:21:25.220 - 01:21:38.630

some days like San Diego. We don't have the truly freezing winter. We don't have two feet of snow, so, you know, appreciate what you have.

01:21:39.490 - 01:21:52.660

I-I like Houston. Yeah, I definitely appreciate the weather we have here. It's not California. I'm from California. And it's not California, but it's definitely better than, I used to live in Chicago, so

01:21:52.660 - 01:22:07.200

it's definitely better than that. California weather is fun, but you have must— you have polluted air, and you have earthquake in some parts, and then they have this wildfire every year.

01:22:08.190 - 01:22:25.290

And you have a very, very severe homeless people problem over there, much worse than Houston, and so no place is perfect. But Houston is overall

01:22:25.290 - 01:22:41.830

is pretty good. I like to pivot now to a different set of questions, so you have an impressive list of publications. And I can see that you've led a number of research

01:22:42.910 - 01:22:59.180

by students, and scientists of Asian backgrounds. And in general, Asian Americans’ contributions to science, scientific research in the US have been well, well documented. What do you think about current attitudes

01:23:01.970 - 01:23:13.650

towards—negative attitudes towards immigration? Do you think it might neg-negatively impact US scientific advancement? The short answer is yes.

01:23:18.880 - 01:23:33.370

The many Asian students benefited for being able to study in the United States, or even work in the United States, but it's not a one way, it’s both ways.

01:23:34.310 - 01:23:47.640

Many people have contributed significantly. I mean, many Asian people in all walks of life and contributed to the United States and to the world.

01:23:48.340 - 01:24:03.460

So, people must realize is a two-way street is not just one-way. And if you have a one good scientist, you realize the other country foot the bill for that person's education all the way

01:24:03.460 - 01:24:22.580

through college or through high school. So it's not just you're totally lost, you gain some too, and also that person may contributed to the better life in the United States for about three or four decades after his or

01:24:22.660 - 01:24:37.630

her graduate study in different parts of the society. So, by having immigrants, not just for graduate students, but having immigrants for—and in, in United

01:24:37.630 - 01:24:51.560

States, it's always a two-way thing. So, United States from the very beginning is a melting pot for immigrants. And, you know, so

01:24:52.520 - 01:25:07.530

now, as I'm not going to get into that one too much because I really don't like to, to spend too much time talking about politics. But now there's a very unhealthy

01:25:08.010 - 01:25:24.510

environment by a large number of people in the United States toward China, I think it's very unhealthy. And it will be so much better for both parts and for the world

01:25:24.890 - 01:25:41.090

if we can elaborate on things we can do together to help each other. Instead of—and I criticize you or fight you in this way, you could you do the same to me. I don't think anybody would, would benefit from that.

01:25:42.890 - 01:26:03.100

Other than some politicians may, may survive by promoting this kind of thinking, but in reality, I think it’s mutual cooperation. And you maintain the differences, but you look for

01:26:03.100 - 01:26:17.280

ways to help each other. You don't have to, I don't have to dictate what you think, how you live your life. Let's focus on how we can help each other.

01:26:17.350 - 01:26:33.120

That's what my thinking is. As I said, immigration, of course, if you don't do the right, it could be, but in principle, immigration is a good thing

01:26:38.510 - 01:26:54.000

What about you—out of the pandemic has emerged so much anti-Asian racism and sentiments, what was your reaction to hearing about this prolific-proliferation of

01:26:54.000 - 01:27:14.120

racist sentiments during the pandemic? The, eventually the truth would come out. In the pandemic, the truth has to be based on the facts and the science, not based on politics point of view

01:27:16.110 - 01:27:35.070

and that's the major issue people have to understand. Unfortunately, many of the people switch around the priority. They are based their opinions, are based on political thinking instead of the other way around, that's not good.

01:27:36.440 - 01:27:54.950

But it's very difficult to tell people, you're not thinking right. When people tell me, I'm thinking, our resist, to acknowledge that one, perhaps to some degree, but, but eventually, the conclusion

01:27:55.790 - 01:28:11.750

has to be based on science and the fact. And there's also one thing, the Asian people, sometime, they are very critical for themselves, versus

01:28:12.750 - 01:28:25.710

forgive-forgive other people's wrongdoing and sometimes they got hurt. And they say, “oh, I take it and I don't want to make trouble,” I think people should speak up.

01:28:28.490 - 01:28:47.570

And I'm very happy that the younger generation like you are, not every Asian populations, a large number of them choose not to go into science and technology and end up going to the other area, in financing, law, in social

01:28:47.570 - 01:29:00.540

science, and literature. That's good, because Asians during my time, most of the people constantly studying science and the technology — it’s too narrow. And we—science

01:29:03.720 - 01:29:20.360

and technology, fine, you can do that, you probably can excel in your own chosen field. But, for the entire society, the impact is very narrow, much less than people in law,

01:29:21.360 - 01:29:37.160

legislation, public service, politics, we need all kind of people, Asian people to participate in different aspects of the society. We shouldn't just concentrate in medicine, science, engineering, and

01:29:38.350 - 01:29:54.380

nothing wrong, but don't be that being the only choice. And I choose science for my own liking and ever since—it wasn't even the practical—ever since my childhood, I like science better. I like math and I like physics

01:29:54.420 - 01:30:05.960

better than history, than-than geology. I was very poor in geology1. And the, so, what's the major part of, part of this area?

01:30:05.990 - 01:30:21.580

How do you—what’s the railroad connecting to? I-I don’t know, but I spent a lot of efforts studying the natural science, but that shouldn't be the same thing for the majority of the Chinese

01:30:22.870 - 01:30:40.920

population. I can see the change now, but you might have very few people going to areas other than science . Excuse me. What, what, in your view, are key characteristics

01:30:43.000 - 01:30:58.540

required to be a good scientist, a good researcher? First, you must love what you do. Science and the research is a very hard field. I don't mean other fields is not hard.

01:30:58.830 - 01:31:13.990

Every, every profession has its own difficulty. It's very difficult to excel in any profession of your choice. But science, and many people say, “I, you, you professor,

01:31:13.990 - 01:31:28.200

you guys have an easy living, and you don't have to punch card to come to work. And it's not just for science for any profession. And you have three months of a summer and

01:31:28.690 - 01:31:44.340

you don't work,” they don't know. And when— before my retirement, I usually work at least six days per week. And twelve is, more than twelve hours

01:31:44.400 - 01:31:56.860

per day, so easy. And the—so people don't know that. Of course, we don't have the punch card. But, but how many people know I have a couch in my

01:31:56.910 - 01:32:15.760

office with a sleeping bag with a microwave oven? And when I'm writing a grant proposal, sometimes I sleep in my office for three nights, four nights in a row. People don't know that. People all you know, you have three months of summer vacations

01:32:16.140 - 01:32:27.130

. I wish that were true. Yeah, this is, this is very similar to, to English literature. You just work so much, so many hours.

01:32:28.590 - 01:32:43.890

It's just you have to like what you do. And the other thing is that I said that before, be critical about your own work and

01:32:44.700 - 01:33:11.980

be proud of what you have. So my last question is, do you have any advice for future generations or future scientists? I have no special wisdom in this and the—just, be

01:33:14.970 - 01:33:32.160

devoted to what you do. Don't—particularly in the field of science, science, the purpose is to find out the truth, so be truthful to, about yourself, be truthful

01:33:32.640 - 01:33:48.610

about what you do. And science is pure, scientists are not necessarily so for all of us. Some of the scientists are very good people, highly respected

01:33:49.420 - 01:34:11.740

by me. I'm sorry to say this, some-some so-called scientists may be very capable, but not necessarily a good person. I can—I have encountered some when they are almost like a politician.

01:34:13.650 - 01:34:26.930

And so, so if you choose to be a scientist, just be truthful. Otherwise, can you sleep well at night?

01:34:28.200 - 01:34:40.360

And by the time you close your eyes? Do you feel good about yourself? Do you feel good about what you have done? And just be truthful and be critical about yourself and be truthful

01:34:40.800 - 01:34:56.710

to you and to other people and to the field of science. And so, I'm no better than other people. I just know, I- I think I have a very happy life because I like what I do.

01:34:57.520 - 01:35:17.790

And I like perhaps I have done and that's probably the most rewarding thing to myself. And I happen to have the same kind of impression. I told my students just you know, do good science and

01:35:17.830 - 01:35:34.060

do science right, then you will be happy. I think that's so important given the political landscape of today and all the research that is, that is

01:35:34.060 - 01:35:52.170

coming out particularly during, during this pandemic. Okay, so that was, that was my last question. Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed today and taking the time. Okay.

01:35:53.250 - 01:35:53.310

Are