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Hello, today is Tuesday, November 2, 2021. My name is Sonia He. Today I am–am interviewing Dr. John Paul Liang for the Houston Asian American Archive of Rice University. Thank you so much for being here today

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with me, Dr. Liang. To start off. To start off, could you kind of talk about when and where were you born?

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So I was born on December 8th, 1974. Actually, I was born in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and it was a—I think my parents at the time moved from Taiwan to Brazil

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in the early 1970s, and that’s––yeah, so I grew up there for about 10 years. Okay. So how would you describe the household that you grew up in, in Brazil, kind of like

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environment and the family values you kind of grew up with? I had a actually a pretty good family, you know, life. We lived with my grandparents as well.

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So it was the seven of us, I have two brothers, older brothers. It was the seven of us, plus a dog, a German Shepherd dog, and so it was actually a very unique experience.

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I love the Brazilian culture, really friendly people. Went toelementary school there and then went to a German school, private school, for elementary as well, and so it felt like a

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very international experience. Okay, how about the neighborhood that you grew up in? Was it like, predominantly Asian, or was it kind of mixed or like, just kind of demographic wise?

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It was predominantly Brazilian, although, you know, in the city, there was a very large Japanese population, and luckily, with my grandparents especially, they knew how to speak Japanese.

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So they were able to kinda get around because it was a big culture shock for them, going from Taiwan to Brazil. But yeah, there–there was a pretty large Japanese population there.

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Okay, and may I ask why your parents decided to move to Brazil in the 1970s? I think there were––I think one of the major reasons that they wanted to go there is that, you know, at the time, there was fear of communism, as

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maybe one. And the second one is they felt like the education system at the time was really strict over there where, you know, itwas probably, you know, I think even today, I think

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thekids over there, they study all the time, they really didn't have much of a life, and they wanted something that was a little bit––wanted to provide a better life forthe kids, and they felt like staying there would have been

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really stressful, you know, especially going through the education system and the pressures of performing well academically. I think they thought that it would be easier if they moved to another country.

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Okay. So what–what did your parents do, like what were their careers? At the time in Taiwan? You know my mom actually worked in finance. I'm not quite sure which company,

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but it was a large company. My dad was a pharmacist, and they were actually doing pretty well, but I think the

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political and the education fears kind of overrided the economic benefits. So did they change careers once they got to Brazil? Yes, actually, my dad actually

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knew acupuncture, studied, and so when he went to Brazil, he started doing acupuncture. I'm uncertain exactly why it maybe related to the laws there, related to pharmacy, maybe. I'm not quite sure why he switched so then my mom just assisted

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him in the clinic, in seeing patients there. Okay, and what were some of the values that your parents emphasized in your upbringing? I know you mentioned that education was a very important thing on their mind. Any other values that you can think of?

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For sure, integrity, you know, and doing thing––staying humble, doing things the right way, not really sacrificing integrity because of financial gain or career gain. Definitely they made sure that we

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needed to do things right. And you also mentioned earlier that you kind of– lived with your grandparents as well because they moved over with you. What was it like living in like such a big household with like seven people?

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Did you spend most your time with your siblings, with your older brothers, with your parents, or with your grandparents? It was all the above, you know, we had– was––the house that we had, it was three stories.

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So the kids stayed in the third–third floor. My grandparents lived in the first floor along with the kitchen and living room area, and

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then my parents were in the second floor. So luckily, there was enough separation to give people some breathing room, and––but we ate dinners together all the time, and then the kids, you know, we were able to

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go out, and, you know, it just, it felt safer back then. I don't know why. We're—or maybe the—the parents weren't as worried

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about crime back then as–as we are now everywhere, but we pretty much played outside, and so it was––there was plenty of space that could be given to different people.

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Yeah. Could you kind of like talk about some of your childhood memories of like playing games, hanging out with the other kids in the neighborhood, maybe just kind of talk about your childhood experience living in Brazil? Yeah, I think it was––so I think

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definitely it’s a soccer country. So as long as you had a little soccer ball, you can can can go out and play and, you know, various kids would come, and we would all play together.

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I had a couple of cousins who lived in the same city, and we kind of grew up together, and that was really nice. We were able to see them every weekend or so along with some family friends who we also––who also had kids,

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similar age. And so it was was actually a pretty normal, you know, over the weekends, we would pretty much relax, but we went to afternoon slash evening school.

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So during the daytime, we would go to the club, my parents would take us to the gym and the club, where we would go and play basketball, exercise. And then around after lunch is

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when we would go to school, and then my mom or my dad would pick us up from school around 5:45, 6pm. And then, you know, start the day again. Okay, so I guess you also said that you lived in Brazil for about 10

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years before you moved. Did you move directly to the United States after that? Yes, yes we did. And where did you move to?

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So we, yeah, we moved directly to Houston. My mom has family here, and so it was was a-an easier path for them. I don't know if they considered other places.

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I know my uncle who we––who I mentioned we all grew up, who lived in the same city. They also moved, and––but they went to San Francisco, so I'm not quite sure if

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other cities were considered, but definitely I–I would assume that, you know, having my mom's side of the family here probably influenced a lot of that decision. And so, like kind of, you know, why they decided

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to move to the United States and leave Brazil behind, and I guess you mentioned that you had family in Houston. Were there any like career considerations or any other like education considerations?

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No, it was the crime rate in Brazil. At the time, I believe, shortly before we moved is when my dad got basically carjacked, and they wanted his wallet, and whether it was intentional

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or accidental, they cut his wrist. And therefore, you know, after that is probably when—that was kind of the last straw because prior to that, you know, there were some pickpocketing, you know,

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things like that, little, smaller versions of crime. And it was just—it became just––they felt like it became too dangerous to raise children. Okay, I'm sorry to hear that.

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That must have been very traumatic. Oh, no problem. It kinda, you know, at the same time, it kinda helped shape what we are today. But I, you know, luckily they––I was very young at the time, so I was probably nine or so.

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So they kind of shielded me from seeing all those things. We weren't in the car at the time. And so all we knew was–was the story and then the scar

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that left––that was left after that. Okay. I'm glad that your dad was okay. Yes, me too . Yeah. So what neighborhood in Houston did y’all move to?

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Do you remember? We moved in the Memorial area. So it was around Memorial and Dairy Ashford. And we rented a—I

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remember we leased a house and stayed there I believe, maybe a few years or so. And then we moved to another house that was in the same neighborhood, and then we stayed there all the way

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until I graduated from high school. Okay, would you say there was a big difference in culture between Brazil and the United States? Did you have a hard time adjusting, or did you notice anything really different when you moved?

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I don't– know, in terms of––no, I don't think there was. In terms of friendliness, the people, I don't think there was a big difference. You know, definitely the weather was a big difference, in terms of here

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being very humid and hot. It just felt like it was was—it took some time to adjust. But aside from that, I think being a little on

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the younger side, it was easier to switch from one to the other. Definitely all the English I learned in Brazil was probably worthless until I actually got here and actually took some ESL

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courses for a year or two. And then––but then, other than that, I think it was was a lot easier to adjust. Okay. And kind of like–like you kind of mentioned language, did you––so

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I don't really know a whole lot about Brazil, but I know you mentioned that you went to a German school, so was it difficult to learn English, even though you haven’t already learned a little bit in Brazil?

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Initially, I think so. It was a little bit of an adjustment, but I really feel like the teachers that I had, and at the time when I moved here, were––they were all really nice

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and very patient with us, and definitely that–that helped a lot, and I think the kids we were with were also really, really friendly. You know, I think kids at that age

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normally, they could be mean, you know, and—but they–they actually weren't, they were actually really inviting. They were nice. And I–I do appreciate that. That's good. And like which schools did you go to, which

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schools did you attend in the Houston area, like middle school and high school? So I attended––elementary school, I attended Nottingham Elementary. Middle school I attended Spring

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Forest, and then high school I attended Stratford. I– I had great experiences on all three. I think it was it was truly something that I value.

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It's––I have no regrets at all with all three schools. Okay. And then you said you stayed in Houston up until you graduated high school, and then you went to college? What college did you to attend and what year?

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What did you study during that time? Yeah, so I attended Cornell University and started in 1993, fall, graduated in 1997. I went in thinking that I

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would be in civil engineering. And when I got on a-an orientation for engineering class, I saw they were introducing all sorts of engineering majors, and when it came to civil engineering, they had somebody sitting on

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top of this bridge, unfinished bridge, and it's ocean all the way on the bottom. And I said, “I don't think so. This is not for me at all.” So I ended up switching to operations research and industrial engineering.

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Okay. And would you say, like, what got you interested in engineering in the first place? You know, I think part of it is you're influenced by your parents, and the, I guess, in general, the Asian

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culture where if you're not a physician, then you probably should go into engineering, and if you're not engineering, you probably should go into finance. So I––so that was probably a consideration that you felt like, you never really considered anything else because those were the

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few majors that were always talked about. You know, so, you know, I definitely did not want to be a physician, and I was interested in finance, but that–that was not a consideration at the time, you know, they—I think it was almost like,

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if you're a boy, you go into engineering, and, you know, so it was kind of, I don't think they pressured me, but there was this–this, almost like, understanding, like, these are the few options that you can go.

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Okay. And then during your time at Cornell, like, were you involved in different clubs or organizations with engineering, or did you try to, like, branch out a little bit?

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I, no, I stayed within–within engineering, you know, I knew that––I knew that I did not do well in physics, which is also another reason why I moved away from civil engineering. I knew that that wasn't for me.

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And operations research and industrial engineering involves a lot of finance and computer science, which I think finance was a lot––was a lot easier for me, but we–we mostly got––when we–when we went there, we

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got into these dorms that had– they divided each dorm into little suites, six person suites, where–where six people would

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live together. And so we–we did a lot in terms of activities, in terms of–of staying within that suite, or neighboring suites. And so those are the friends that we got pretty close with. Okay, thinking back on kind of, you know, do

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you remember any like defining moments? I know you mentioned the one that you definitely didn't want to go into civil engineering, but any one that––any like defining moment or mentor or experience that made you decide that you wanted to study

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operations? No, I think, yeah. actually, it was one of the neighbors within the suites that I lived with, he was a––he was two years ahead of me, and he was in operations research.

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And at the time, I–I did communicate with him in saying that I really did not want to do civil engineering. And, but then at the same time, I didn't want to give up a year of schoolwork by transferring

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somewhere else. And that's–that's where he introduced me to operations research, kind of look into it, and so in a way he was almost like a mentor. With probably without him knowing it, but yeah, he was a mentor, and that got me kind

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of interested because he was basically able to sell me thee field. Okay, and what were some of the challenges that you faced during college? I think that the courses were definitely not easy.

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They—very frequently, a lot of the classes were graded based on bell shaped curve, and one of the professors at the time even in physics said, you know, that whether it was true or not, I don't know, but at the time, they said that Cornell

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relies on the physics department to do their dirty work in order to filter out all the–all the bad people. So–so it created a lot of pressure because, you know, some classes were graded based on a C+/B-

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bell shaped curve, and so you almost guaranteed a certain number of people would fail classes. So, you know, keeping up, making sure—and you're competing against everybody

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who's been in the top 10, so it's a little bit different than when we were in high school where, you know, you have a larger population or general population, and getting top 10 is probably not as difficult, versus trying to get to the

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top, you know, 50% in a top 10 category school, so, that––I think that was probably the biggest challenge. Okay. And then what did you do after you graduated? I worked at Andersen Consulting, it's actually called Accenture

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now, Andersen Consulting back then, had both––was comprised of Andersen as well as Arthur Andersen, the accounting firm. And when I got there, it was right in the middle of when Anderson Consulting and Arthur

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Andersen were splitting up, and they were having some issues. So that was–that was pretty unique, but I worked there for a year, but I–I didn't really enjoy it. It was right around Y2K.

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At the time, they–they thought that the world was gonna come to an end once it hit 2000. And so––but so we did a lot of Y2K testing, I flew to Cleveland and various parts of the country to do various

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different projects. But I–I didn't really enjoy it that much. I, un-unlike some people, I– I don’t know, I–I took the first job that I could, just because it was–it was nice to be employed. And––but I–I—looking back, you know, I don't enjoy

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traveling that much. I enjoy traveling, but not every weekend. So– so that–that influenced me in order to kind of settle down somewhere else to–to make a change.

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Okay, and I see in the resume that you sent us that you pursued a Master's of Science in Oriental Medicine starting in 1998. Can—could you kind of explain the process of deciding to go back to school and get that

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master's? Yeah, well, you know, my parents founded that college in 1991. And so I, you know, when you're growing up, that's the last thing you want to do, is s do whatever your parents are

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doing. And but when I–when I decided to–to quit Andersen Consulting, my parents convinced me to come back to Houston, and my dad said, you know, just try one class, see if you like it, if you don't like it, just

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move on and do something else and find some-something else that you want to do. And I took one class and everything just fit, you know, the whole, i-it

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just—it almost fit like a–like a glove, where you feel like this is the field that you belong to, and it makes good sense, and everything that you believe in fits, and so that's how I got into it.

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Okay, you mentioned that your parents were the ones who founded the American College of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine. Could you kind of describe the process of how they decided to come about and build a

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university from the ground up? I think at the time, there were–there were a couple of, you know, reasons I think that–that went into that. One was, you know, more on the personal side there–

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dad at the time was having some health issues, and he was the–the primary caretaker or primary earner for the entire family, and because he had a clinic here, too, and he was

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seeing patients, and at the time, the worry was that if–if something was to happen to him, then you had a wife, two parents, and then three kids to feed along with a dog. So it was––that became a worry.

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So he––they were really thinking about trying to find something where in the event that something happened to him that, you know, th-that it will provide, and then I think the business

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aspect of it was that, you know, that's what he knew most, and he–he––acupuncture was really not widespread in the United States, and he's basically––he's good at building

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things from ground up, and so he felt like he had the interest, the energy to, you know, to make something from nothing. And so that's why he decided to kind of develop this field, have a–have a, you know, have a school

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and then then go from there. That's really cool. I guess at the time, were there any other schools in the country or anywhere else that would teach . Yes, I think there were a few others.

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There might have been even one in Houston, but it was definitely something that was just very small at the time, it wasn't something that had grown. Accreditation wasn't really––it was really non-existent at the time, and so you kind of had to take it into steps and

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build it up and get that recognition. Okay. Yeah. So you mentioned that you experimented with different classes, and it—everything just kind of

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clicked. Could you kind of talk about like what kind of classes you would take, what kind of, like, is there a lot of practical and clinical rotations, like traditional–traditional medical school would have? Kind of like, what do

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you—what was the process of learning? Yeah, it–it was a lot of––there were some didactic classes, it was a lot of hands on, just because a–a lot of it, whether it's anatomy, where you had to try to identify

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bones and things like that, or acupuncture classes where you had to practice needling. So there––there was a lot of hands on experience. But by far, my passion, the one that

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really fit me, was actually physiology, just because acupuncture is not as much, you know, the–the theory behind it is very philosophical. And so when you talk about the theories behind

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acupuncture, such as yin and yang, five elements, you're not really doing it from an evi-evidence based research, like Western medicine is, you're talking more about life as we experience, from ev-everything that we do,

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and so that philosophy really made sense for me, and so that's–that's the part that I really fell in love with, and kind of carried it through for the other parts. Okay, you kind of mentioned like the philosophy of oriental medicine

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, and how would you say that that philosophy is different from, I guess, Western medicine or traditional medical schools? Well, I think one of the biggest differences is that when you look at Eastern medicine,

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you're looking at the holistic approach, you're looking at the entire body, where one aspect, one organ, can impact other organs or one– know, where you have a headache, it can be treated by putting needles on the foot.

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Whereas Western medicine, it's more compartmentalized, where, you know, if you go see a GI doctor, that's all they look at, you know, the GI system. And if you want to–if you want to look at the liver

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system, there's a–there's a doctor for that. If you want to look at the kidney, there's a nephrologist. So, it's much more compartmentalized, they understand that organs will impact other organs as well, but you have different doctors that

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are fully specializing in charge of those systems. Whereas acupuncture, it––you– almost like a mix. So you start looking at everything holistically. So would you say there are like spiritual aspects involved with oriental medicine and

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acupuncture, and do you believe in some sort of spiritual or religious belief? Hmm, I don't see it as much. I don't really view it as religious.

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I think definitely, you know, in terms of spiritual, people can probably make it into a spiritual—and utilize that aspect of it. I actually don't, but I've seen

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people meditating, for example, bringing certain spirituality in various things. I-I’m much more on the biomedical side of things, so I don't implement that into my practice.

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Okay, and how much of your practice would you say is procedural, like actually needling or versus, like the guidance of daily habits and just coaching a patient or someone who comes into your clinic about their lifestyle?

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I would say it's probably 90% procedural. Unless, you know, we generally try not to ask patients to change their lifestyle, unless we really see some bad habits thatare causing such things, but

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a lot of times what we found is that the patients who come to acupuncture generally have some knowledge about what's healthy for them. If not, they generally are not willing to change, so it doesn't really

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matter that you're making recommendations about, you know, what kind of diet they should have, or what kind of sleeping patterns they should have. I think they, in theory, they all know that.

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It's whether they want to change or not, I think it's different, but for me, you know, there are, it's a little bit outside my scope of practice, so I don't get as much involved in that unless they ask, or unless I see something that'ss really big that I think is important

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for them to change. So I try to stick with my areas of expertise, and I just do the acupuncture. Okay. Yeah, and what would you say are the biggest challenges you face going into oriental medicine and

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acupuncture? It used to be–it used to be acceptance. You know, when I first started in the early 2000s, I think there was this big––it wa—people were still very uneducated

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about what acupuncture was. And so they were still–look at the NIH research studies that used to come out during the early 2000s, and it was basically trying to figure out if

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acupuncture was better than placebo. Whereas now, it kind of progressed, and now they're trying to figure out what the mechanisms of acupuncture is, so they already know that it works, and so they're trying to find and

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figure out why, you know, what kind of chemical things, or what kind of things are happening when you insert one needle into the body? So I think definitely the—a challenge at the time

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was education. Now, a lot of people are much more aware about what acupuncture is, they––a lot of them have tried it, they know about it. Now it's

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more related to educating them about what kinds of conditions can acupuncture help, because there's still widespread belief that acupuncture can only help pain management, and so—just because of the opioid crisis.

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And the other thing is trying to bust the myth that acupuncture is painful. That's also another challenge. But other than

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that, I think it's been pretty smooth. Okay, that's great. Yeah, because my next question was kind of how do you think Western medicine views acupuncture––traditional, oriental medicine?

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It used to be considered as an alternative, where I would frequently talk to patients and they would say, "Yeah, my physician is not really supportive of me going to acupuncture." And that was primarily in the early

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2000s. I think, as we progress, you know, in 2010, and now 2020's, much more supportive, you know, you frequently have—the patients will say, “I've been referred by physicians,”

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or, “My physician actually recommended it,” or, “They are supportive of me doing this.” They might not know exactly what it is and how it can help, but there's a big shift in mentality about

00:34:12.100 - 00:34:29.510

it. That's really good to hear. Yeah, and what would you say is the view of acupuncture and oriental medicine on Western medicine? I think in terms for me, I feel like it's, you know, the same as right arm

00:34:29.920 - 00:34:45.480

leftt arm, where I think there are many cases that you can only rely on Western medicine. There are certain situations where, you know, some functional issues that acupuncture is probably better, and there's probably the

00:34:45.480 - 00:34:58.850

bulk of it, where combining it is probably the best. So definitely, you know, if there's anything structural, I would say don't come to acupuncture. It's ––the relief is only going to be only temporary.

00:34:59.570 - 00:35:10.990

It's not gonna really help that much. But if you're––if you go to a western medical facility and they say we can't find anything wrong with you, chances are that's more of a

00:35:10.990 - 00:35:25.220

functional issue, and that's where acupuncture really excels. Okay, yeah, de-definitely, it's like––I feel like that’s something that I grew up listening to my parents also being Chinese, they mentioned a lot of like , which is like Eastern and Western medicine,

00:35:25.220 - 00:35:38.700

which is really–– Yes, I think it used to be called alternative medicine, and then it became complementary medicine, and now its integrated medicine. Yeah. It’s such such a great thing to see how like its kind of progressed, the way

00:35:38.870 - 00:35:47.620

that its become more accepted by western medicine. Yes, it is. Yeah. Very good to––

00:35:47.620 - 00:36:03.500

What are your––sorry––what are your thoughts on the way that oriental medicine is portrayed in the media? Like, specifically, I'm thinking about popular media recently, how I think Michael Phelps was the person who first brought cupping into like mainstream media, and then I also see now on Tik Tok, a

00:36:03.500 - 00:36:15.040

lot of like, beauty Tik Tokers, or people use like Gua Sha on their face, to slim their face and all that, what's your view on the way that these techniques or these methods are being portrayed in the media?

00:36:16.730 - 00:36:31.550

Overall, I think it's been okay. You know, I think I read somewhere, I think Angelina Jolie was crediting acupuncture for helping with her Bell's palsy at the time. I think overall, it's been been been good.

00:36:31.850 - 00:36:47.540

You know, you mentioned the swimmers, you can see all these cupping circles on, bruises on their bodies, and that's––I think it's very accurate. The things that are not as accurate is when you start looking at movies and things, and you start

00:36:47.540 - 00:36:58.240

seeing people's faces with 100 needles in their faces. I think those are very unlikely. It's not a general accurate portrayal of what acupuncture is.

00:36:59.330 - 00:37:18.070

Very rarely, for me, very rarely do I exceed more than, you know, 10 to 15 needles total, for the entire body. So for the face to have thirty needles, is just––it doesn't seem very accurate . Yeah, and do you think that there's like a lack

00:37:18.440 - 00:37:34.420

of knowledge of like the theory or like the kind of cultural basis or the theoretical basis of these different procedures, and it's more just, like a—kind of you see someone famous doing it, or you see someone you know doing it, and then you just kind of follow

00:37:34.420 - 00:37:49.450

along with the idea? Do you feel like there's a lack of knowledge and like learning the historical roots of oriental medicine? Yeah, for some people, yes, definitely, because well, you know, in the clinic, we do see two types of patients.

00:37:49.730 - 00:38:03.470

One is that they won't ask any questions, you––they just say, “You do your thing. I don't care how it works, you just make me feel better.” And then there's the other–the other side, that they like to ask a lot of

00:38:03.470 - 00:38:19.880

questions about how it works. So I think you do have these two types of–of patient, I guess, patient curiosity, and the ones that really don't want to know, I–I think they–they have very little knowledge of

00:38:19.930 - 00:38:30.060

acupuncture, and—but it’s not just acupuncture. I think they have very little knowledge of medicine in general because they don’t––that's not their interest. I think their interest is just to feel better.

00:38:31.070 - 00:38:44.750

Whereas––there are, on the other side, there are some people who want to ask exactly, “What are you doing? Why? Where does this meridian go?” And yeah, they definitely have two sides.

00:38:45.370 - 00:38:57.350

That's good. It's kind of interesting to see that they're actual-actually people who are interested in how it works. Quite a bit, actually. Yeah, yeah. And the funny thing is, sometimes is that we will put needles thinking that

00:38:57.380 - 00:39:14.040

they don't really care, and then they will ask, "Oh, you know, what—can you explain a little bit about what you're doing?" So, yeah. You focus a lot on acupuncture. Can you tell me a little bit about the theory behind acupuncture and how it

00:39:14.040 - 00:39:29.230

works, I guess? Yeah, so acupuncture is based on a meridian system. There's 12 regular meridians, two extra ones on top of that, and 300––361 points that are

00:39:30.430 - 00:39:43.410

the base points. There's probably another 50 to 70 or so that are extra––what we call extra points. Some of these extra points are agreed on, some are not agreed on.

00:39:43.410 - 00:39:59.480

It's more related to experience points. But basically, where people have issues is where you start doing some differential diagnosing. I––definitely, you know, the–the one that people know most is pain

00:39:59.480 - 00:40:14.280

management, and quite frequently is, you know, where the pain is, that's where the needle is. But along with that, it's where the pain is where you start targeting some of the meridians that are related to that.

00:40:15.240 - 00:40:28.880

Kind of like where I mentioned before, where somebody with migraine headaches, you might not necessarily want to put needles on the head, where it's hurting, because sometimes it might increase the pain level. So you want to—you want to target the same meridian that's on the

00:40:28.880 - 00:40:41.020

feet and try to hit those points, to be a little bit gentler. So, yeah, so definitely acupuncture is based on the meridian system.

00:40:41.610 - 00:40:55.680

And ––but then the diagnosing that we do is quite frequently done by Yin and Yang theory, as well as the five-element theory, which is how the organ system actually starts becoming related to each other.

00:40:58.460 - 00:41:15.960

Okay, and do you think acupuncture is like a broad East Asian practice, or like an Asian practice, or is it like a predominantly Chinese one, or—I'm just curious about like, the history of acupuncture? Yeah, I think it, you know, it started in China, and then

00:41:15.960 - 00:41:32.730

it-it—but definitely it quickly spread to Korea, Japan, Europe. I think Germany has a–has a big focus on acupuncture research. Auricular acupuncture is being

00:41:32.730 - 00:41:51.930

credited to the French scientists for discovering auricular acupuncture. And so it's quite widespread, actually. Okay, and I guess in what ways do you think acupuncture can treat or

00:41:51.970 - 00:42:08.470

heal a patient in a way that Western medicine cannot? I think it's the holistic approach, where, for example, somebody with migraine headaches, you know, that is

00:42:08.470 - 00:42:28.190

caused by stress management, and maybe influenced by lack of sleep, or maybe some heart issues, or maybe some burnout, you start looking at everything together to develop

00:42:28.310 - 00:42:42.030

this diagnosis. Whereas, you know, some––maybe Western medicine, they might not look at some of these causes, and they might just treat the migraine headache on

00:42:42.030 - 00:43:01.280

its own. So when we started looking at different conditions, you might–you're gonna have a lot of different treatment protocols, depending on what you think is the cause of such a problem, and so it's not necessarily

00:43:01.860 - 00:43:18.240

the disease that you're treating, you're treating the entire symptom. Yeah, I feel like there's a––been a lot of like awareness recently about—especially with like, mental health, I guess, there's a lot of focus on finding underlying causes,

00:43:19.040 - 00:43:34.170

and kind of seeing the patient a little bit more holistically. Yeah. And I think a lot of it also comes from constitution, you know, we're trying to develop a–a system where everybody can input their health symptoms,

00:43:36.750 - 00:43:57.850

and it'll spit out the––your weakest organ based on Chinese medicine theory, and what that does is it makes you aware of your health, whether you're a 16 year old person or you're a 90 year old person, everybody, I believe, is born with some general

00:43:57.850 - 00:44:15.030

weaknesses. No one is strong in every single organ. And that's why I think you have people who claim that they were smokers for 40 years, and they've never had lung cancer, but then somebody who has secondhand smoke for a

00:44:15.030 - 00:44:30.930

short period of time also––already has lung cancer. So you constantly see that and I think a lot of it depends on what you're born with, in terms of what your constitution is, and then influenced by what you eat and your lifestyle.

00:44:33.320 - 00:44:47.300

Yeah, and I guess kind of moving a little bit into like the business side of running a clinic and college. What is your patient demographic like? What kind of––kinds of patients do you see?

00:44:47.300 - 00:45:01.850

What ethnicity are they generally, and like, where do they––why do they usually come in? We-we see a pretty diverse background. I would guess probably, it'd be a third

00:45:02.530 - 00:45:18.380

to maybe 40 to 50% is Caucasian, we have a large Hispanic patient population as well, and then we, ironically, we–we have a smaller

00:45:18.380 - 00:45:34.260

Asian population, but I think a lot of the Asian population will go to Chinatown to get treatments, and we're not located there, so I think that's one of the reasons why, but yeah––but we're also inside every single Houston

00:45:34.890 - 00:45:53.640

Methodist Hospital, and so—as part of their wellness services department, and so you see a lot more healthcare people there, just because it's wellness, and their employees are right there, and––but definitely 40 to 60 year old,

00:45:54.350 - 00:46:08.370

primarily females, but the ethnicity generally is very diversified. That's really interesting. Yeah. I'm surprised that not as many people of Asian descent would be coming to see you. Yeah.

00:46:08.370 - 00:46:19.790

It would make sense that they go to Chinatown. Yeah. I think that's a major reason. Yeah. Yeah. And how has like COVID-19 affected your field and your practice in general?

00:46:20.600 - 00:46:37.330

Definitely, you know, the– first time the––in 2020, when it first hit, you know, half of our patient population disappeared, and I think rightly so, in that people were afraid of–of COVID. And at the time, we really didn't

00:46:37.330 - 00:46:52.240

know much about it. And therefore, it was difficult to have a protocol set, where we could protect everybody. And––but as time progressed, and we quickly started having these protocols where every single practitioner

00:46:52.240 - 00:47:08.020

would wear gloves and masks and so we limited the amount of inquiry that we needed, just because at the time, we didn't want to have people talking or spending too much time inside the rooms.

00:47:10.800 - 00:47:28.410

And a lot less touching in terms of assessments, where we just––we’re just trying to limit the amount of exposure that everybody had. Now, definitely, the protocol is–is much–more solid.

00:47:29.290 - 00:47:41.300

Knock on wood, we never had a COVID issue with the patients. But you know, eventually that will change. I think somebody is bound to get it. I think COVID is just that

00:47:41.360 - 00:47:55.640

powerful. But, you know, at this point, I think definitely patients are starting to come back because its been two years, they are starting to realize that it’s probably not going to go away, and they need to go back to their

00:47:56.010 - 00:48:10.880

semi-relatively normal lifestyle where they take care of their own health and not hide in their houses forever, but the other big major change that we've seen is that rather than pain management being the number one condition

00:48:10.880 - 00:48:27.900

we treat, it's actually now mental health. Anxiety, depression, stress by far is number one. Okay, yeah. Would you say that the reason why there's been an increase in mental health patients is a direct

00:48:27.900 - 00:48:39.700

result of COVID, and the isolation, social isolation, would you say? Yeah, I think so. By far, you know, people are—the stress of just being worried about COVID, and then on

00:48:39.700 - 00:48:54.480

top of that, you're stuck at home, you're not really going out, you're not interacting with people. And then then you have, additionally, you know, family members are in close proximity with each other. That probably is sometimes

00:48:54.480 - 00:49:14.010

not the best thing. So all of it combined for sure. Okay, and kind of in relation to COVID-19, what have been the biggest challenges in your personal life with regards to COVID-19 and the pandemic?

00:49:14.040 - 00:49:34.050

You know, you can't go out, you know, of course, I think some people are okay with doing various things, but I haven't been inside a restaurant for about two years, just because there's still fear of being in an enclosed environment with the masks off and people are talking, so

00:49:34.940 - 00:49:46.880

that has been the biggest challenge, where we used to go–we used to go to restaurants, we used to go watch shows. We haven't done any of that for about two years. Yeah.

00:49:48.110 - 00:49:58.190

Even though it feels like some things are kind of returning to normal, like there's still—with the recent Delta variant, and then also just people not getting vaccinated. There's a lot of risks still out there.

00:49:59.000 - 00:50:13.700

Yeah, and I think it depends on your ––how you view this COVID. You know, we–we had––have half the population that don't think it’s as big of a deal, and so they are okay with not

00:50:13.700 - 00:50:26.800

wearing masks, once they get vaccinated, they're fine, they're walking around, they'll go into different places, restaurants. And then you have other people where they're very scared, regardless if they get vaccinated or

00:50:26.800 - 00:50:43.230

not. For us, we are kind of more towards the timid part, just because in healthcare, we––I see things. But luckily, we're not at a point where we are

00:50:43.330 - 00:50:58.550

completely isolated in our house, and we can't live our lives, because I think at some point, we have to start relaxing some of our–our fears, or else it’s– will consume you, ‘cause at some point in time, you're trying to

00:50:58.550 - 00:51:14.530

balance between safety and sanity, and at some point, you have to start doing things. Yeah, that's definitely true. What are your hopes for––I guess you kind of mentioned earlier that you think

00:51:14.530 - 00:51:27.850

COVID’s gonna be part of a permanent thing, or it’s gonna be––would you say something like the flu, that you would have to get a vaccine every year? Like a booster or something? I mean, for me, I–I think for me and my family, we’ve always had flu

00:51:27.850 - 00:51:48.120

vaccines. And I'm a proponent of COVID vaccines as well, just because of the things that we hear and we see and how nasty this virus is, but I think at the same time, is that people need to make decisions based

00:51:48.120 - 00:52:01.440

on their own family issue. You know, everybody has very strong feelings about various things. Icompletely understand a lot of where different individuals come from,

00:52:03.330 - 00:52:20.740

but I think if people get vaccinated, hopefully, you know the don't have to throw the dice as much, you know, instead of of throwing––in-instead of having a larger risk, hopefully, you make it a little bit smaller.

00:52:21.460 - 00:52:37.650

And, yeah, so. Yeah. And would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on the rise of anti-Asian sentiment with the COVID-19 pandemic? Fortunately, I haven't experienced that

00:52:37.650 - 00:52:51.960

myself. Everyone I interacted with, whether it's patients or colleagues or public members, have been really great and really nice to me.

00:52:52.910 - 00:53:05.640

But when you start reading the internet, and you start seeing things, you do have that kind of fear that–that there–there will be, or there are some, anti-Asian sentiments going on.

00:53:06.970 - 00:53:23.740

But hopefully, you know, luckily, I–I—it's difficult for me to–to comment just because I–I haven't experienced it myself, luckily, so far. Yeah. And I guess do you think that this kind of sentiment will

00:53:23.740 - 00:53:39.980

affect the way that acupuncture and oriental medicine, like its traject-trajectory? ‘Cause I know there's been some negative media about, like Chinese medicine, oriental medicine, because of the pandemic as well.

00:53:42.010 - 00:53:54.880

No, I mean, I think right now, if you look at the patient volume, it is increasing. I think at the end, people are––when people are desperate to get help, they would try anything, and if they feel like acupuncture can help,

00:53:54.880 - 00:54:06.440

they would go to do acupuncture. So I have not noticed that because of their political views, they refuse to to do––to go to acupuncture to receive health care.

00:54:08.760 - 00:54:24.590

I think how acupuncture in general has been widespread enough in the United States for many decades, to the point that people are already integrating it into their healthcare system, and you have enough practitioners and public

00:54:25.410 - 00:54:38.930

members who've done acupuncture before who are vouching for it. So I think––I don't think acupuncture can ever go back to what it used to be, where it's very isolated. I think at the end, it's effective enough that people are willing to––if it

00:54:38.930 - 00:54:54.920

means that it would get them better, they are willing to do it, just because it will make them feel better, and they might try other things initially, but it's no different than 30 years ago when people would try everything else, and we used to be their—the last

00:54:55.390 - 00:55:08.560

line of defense. So I don't think there's any difference. It's just that nowadays, people will come to us as the first line of defense rather than last, but we're used to always being the last line of defense. That’s good.

00:55:09.270 - 00:55:22.440

That's-that's good to hear that. It hopefully won't revert back to just kind of being isolated. At least not yet. We have not seen anything like that yet. Yeah. Yeah. And then kind of about your involvement,

00:55:24.880 - 00:55:40.100

you are the President, correct me if I'm wrong, the President of the American College of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, and then you're also involved in a couple other organizations nationally. Could you kind of talk about your community involvement?

00:55:42.530 - 00:56:00.670

Yeah, so I've been involved in, you know, from the state, in associations, and then for the—in the past, in the accrediting agency overseeing acupuncture programs in the United States. I–I think it's important for me

00:56:01.250 - 00:56:17.730

to––because I–I get to see all different perspective, I get to see it from a national, from a statewide point of view, where you see it more on a global side of things, rather than just being stuck in a local region, and you start seeing

00:56:17.730 - 00:56:32.490

more, what is the trends, what is the industry trend, and what are–are people's views, and where is this medicine going? I–I think it would be difficult for me to see that acupuncture is going towards an integrative approach, if I

00:56:32.540 - 00:56:52.930

was always stuck in a more clinical, Houston-only type mentality. And so being in a community where it's a national community or state community, you really see that there's a wide range of opinions, and they all make

00:56:52.930 - 00:57:06.180

sense. Yeah. And I also see that you got many degrees in education, Master’s of Science in Education, and Doctor of Philosophy in Education.

00:57:06.960 - 00:57:23.130

What prompted you to study education? It was mos-mostly because I was––I’ve been in administration, and it was something that was required in terms of trying to manage an education institution.

00:57:24.320 - 00:57:43.000

So a lot of the things that are related to education, I didn't understand at the time when I first got on board, and it was really valuable to start learning what the accrediting agency is looking for, in terms of why are they requiring this, or

00:57:43.310 - 00:57:59.410

how do we make students more successful? I think that is something that was really valuable for me to get that degree, because it really made me understand how to structure things, how to lead an institution, maybe what

00:57:59.410 - 00:58:13.840

kind of curriculum should we move towards, and making students more successful, I think that they taught me all that. That's good. Yeah. Definitely being in charge of an educational institution has its own unique set

00:58:14.620 - 00:58:30.510

of challenges. Yeah. And then just a couple final questions on your identity, how would you identify yourself? In terms of? In terms of ethnicity, like Asian, Asian American, or

00:58:31.370 - 00:58:47.310

you—some people would like to identify themselves like by their careers, so how would you if you were to introduce yourself, identify yourself? I think I–I identify as Asian American. I think, you know, being––I think having––being out of the—out

00:58:48.430 - 00:59:05.570

of the Asian countries, outside of that my whole life, makes me––it makes it difficult for me to be able to accurately identify myself as Chinese or Taiwanese or something like––because I don't––I never really experienced it

00:59:05.600 - 00:59:23.470

firsthand, and so I think when you start living outside, and if you're born outside of the Asian countries, it's almost like a blend. You don't really have that identity where you know for sure that this is Chinese culture.

00:59:24.450 - 00:59:38.420

I think a lot of it's kind of like the fortune cookie thing, you know, and where you later find that, oh, actually, that's not really Asian, and so, I think when you start living outside of the

00:59:38.420 - 00:59:50.740

Asian countries, you have your own culture. And sometimes it's a mix of many different Asian cultures, so I would identify myself as Asian American. Okay, yeah.

00:59:50.740 - 01:00:09.820

And do you have any stories or instances where you remember struggling with like, identifying as Asian American, or having that kind of struggle of maybe not being as immersed or being as connected with, say, your cultural heritage, in growing up in Brazil and the United States, and then the

01:00:09.820 - 01:00:24.300

struggles, maybe like, while you were younger in school or at any other point in time? Yeah, I think it's, you know, when you're–when you're living, especially back then and in the late 70s, early

01:00:24.300 - 01:00:41.390

80s, you start––you do have– you're living in an outside country, you do have–do experience some racism. You know, kind of I mentioned before that there's a large Japanese population in Brazil. We, as kids, we would

01:00:41.390 - 01:00:56.640

automatically be called Japanese, whether you're Japanese or not, it didn’t matter, you were just called Japanese. So–so you do experience some of that. You do––I did experience a little bit here, when

01:00:57.350 - 01:01:12.080

I moved here, and whether, and I don't know, it's just kids being mean, or you know, so you do have these types of experiences where you start wondering, you know, why you're Asian sometimes

01:01:12.680 - 01:01:27.690

and why are you different from other people? But, you know, just like, I think what––as you start growing up, you start start remembering, you know, what–what your—what the strengths are in–in being Asian,

01:01:29.020 - 01:01:46.240

and the racism starts to, hopefully, you know, decline a little bit as people also start to become more mature, too. So, yeah, so those are—were the challenges that I faced. Yeah, and I guess, what is

01:01:46.240 - 01:02:00.640

your hope for the Asian American community within Houston, it's like trajectory in the future, and then kind of how the Asian American community in the United States will progress in the future, kind of what are your hopes, and how do you see demographics changing?

01:02:02.930 - 01:02:20.810

I always hope that A-Asians actually are more unified. You know, I don't know, when you start comparing Asians with other cultures, sometimes Asians are more fragmented. They're not—you see when you start voting

01:02:21.580 - 01:02:43.390

for president or for whatever, politics, there’s a reason why Asians are rarely the focus of conversations, you know, not just because we're, you know, 3% or 5% of the overall population, but I think, in addition to that, we are

01:02:43.440 - 01:02:58.580

a little bit more fragmented in general, that there is no point in focus—there's no motivation to focus on Asians because at the end, it's gonna––Asian's are gonna cancel each other out anyways. So I think, definitely there has

01:02:58.610 - 01:03:15.340

been an effort that I know of, you know, with 80-20, and all these other Asian organizations trying to unify, and so what–what I hope to see in the future is that we can be—have a more unified voice and

01:03:15.730 - 01:03:27.860

be able to sometimes sacrifice our own points of view so that we can have that unified-fied voice. And so yeah, that's what I hope for. Yeah, that's definitely something I see a lot.

01:03:29.470 - 01:03:42.590

There's a lot of like division between––with-with-within ethnic groups and then also between ethnic groups, I feel like that's something that definitely works against Asian Americans in the US, especially on the political scene.

01:03:42.780 - 01:03:59.280

Yeah. It does. I mean, it's almost like, you know, even when you start looking at the Chinese culture, we even subdivide that, are you Cantonese, are you Taiwanese, are you, you know, so you have so many different

01:04:00.560 - 01:04:20.860

divisions, and you're trying to fragment everything, so—but very rarely do I hear people just say I'm Asian. Yeah, definitely. And then, I guess, closing out with one final question, what

01:04:20.970 - 01:04:33.470

is kind of your advice for future generations of Asian Americans, future generations of people interested in acupuncture or oriental medicine, and just kind of what is the message you want to leave behind?

01:04:35.260 - 01:04:51.470

Definitely, I think it's, you know, Asians tend to focus so much on academics and the pressures that are––that Asians face. As, you know, definitely now that I'm 46,

01:04:54.270 - 01:05:08.330

I sometimes feel like I think people need to enjoy the process. Enjoy, you know, you do want to strive, but it's not working 20 hours a day doesn't make you better,

01:05:08.680 - 01:05:24.240

you know, it ––working so hard on work for work, it doesn't make you know, it doesn't mean that you're successful. I think now that I have my own family,

01:05:25.420 - 01:05:41.620

and I think it's definitely, you know, we want to work hard, but then we also want to enjoy the process because time will fly by really quick, and that's what I'm trying to do now where, you know, I don't want to look back—every time you know, when you

01:05:41.620 - 01:05:56.440

start talking to the elderly, my patients who are older, very rarely do they say that they have regrets about working more. You know, they—every single time they have regrets, it's about family, it's about personal

01:05:56.440 - 01:06:11.450

people, it’s—so definitely, I would recommend that you strive to be the best, but at the same time you allocate some time and effort for people, for your own family members so that you have no regrets in the future.

01:06:13.730 - 01:06:22.940

That's–that’s a very good message. I hope people who watch this interview later on will hopefully resonate, it will resonate with them. And I guess you mentioned your family.

01:06:22.940 - 01:06:38.570

I was wondering, could you talk a little bit more about your own family now? Yeah, I have two girls, a wife and two girls, and you know, definitely it's something that, you know, I would

01:06:38.570 - 01:06:52.730

not change for anything. It's––I grew up with just boys, so it's definitely a learning curve, but I've always wanted daughters and, you know, they are a lot of fun, and it's something

01:06:52.730 - 01:07:09.340

that I think makes life much more interesting. So yeah, they keep me out of work sometimes, which I think it's a necessity. Yeah, and do you mind me asking how did you meet your wife?

01:07:10.750 - 01:07:25.040

Well, so I actually met her online. When I was in school, it was was—at the time, it was really difficult to meet anybody. And so

01:07:26.470 - 01:07:42.720

somebody, and I can't recall who it was, but somebody actually recommended to go online and at the time, I thought, "Oh, my goodness, am I going to find somebody who's psychotic?" Little did I know she was thinking the same thing .

01:07:42.870 - 01:07:57.740

But at the end, it worked out, so yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Online dating or like apps, like Tinder, I guess, became really a big thing.

01:07:59.130 - 01:08:15.330

Yeah, I don't know much about Tinder. I––we actually did eHarmony at the time, and I did that just because it seemed like a––they did a lot more research. They asked a lot of questions about personality and things like

01:08:15.690 - 01:08:30.310

that, but–but it turned out that we—actually, our families knew the same people, and that really enforced it. So I think what made it sustainable, I think, was the fact that we had that

01:08:30.610 - 01:08:39.790

personal connection. People knew people who, you know, had mutual friends, mu-mutual acquaintances, and that really, I think, made the difference.

01:08:41.420 - 01:08:52.830

Yeah, that's really nice to hear. Thank you so much for sharing your life story and your experience living in Brazil and the US, and then all of your experiences in acupuncture. Thank you so much. Thank you.

01:08:52.830 - 01:08:59.630

No, thank you for having me. It’s-it was enjoyable. Yeah. And let me know if you have any questions, and I'll stop the recording.