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Today is May 8, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm working for the Houston Asian American Archive and we're here to interview Dora Wong.

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How are you, Dora? I'm fine. Thank you. Great. It's such an honor to be interviewing you. To start with our oral history interview, can you tell us when

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and where were you born? I was born in the 30s. And in Shanghai, China. Wonderful. Can you share with us some of the childhood memories back in Shanghai? Well, I attend to the Sacred Heart—the school, and

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actually run by the American and European priest and nun. All my teachers are nun and priest in Catholic school. And every child has to be Catholic in order to go to the school. So my family actually Buddhist.

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My father and mother, like believe in Buddha, but because I have to study in the school, so I become Catholic. Wonderful. Um, how did you— And finish high school, Aurora High School, the same school there, the-

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the high school called Aurora. And, and then I- after I finished Aurora High School, I went to the Fudan University, to study, and which is also in Shanghai, but in the suburbs of Shanghai.

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And I studied finance, international trade. At that time, I was very lucky to get into this college, because it's run by Communist Party in 1949. And after 1949 Communist Party came, so

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the- the school—we don't have to pay any money. And, but we have to live in the school, we're very far away. And most, 90% the student is man, it’s boys in those school; but I was very lucky as a woman can get into the

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school. The... meantime, I feel like I'm very, what do I say, all the- all the boys like to help me, you know, because there are a few girls in the whole school, yeah.

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So I feel very happy that way. Everybody tried to help me and, and pay attention to me, even the- even the- even the college professor, assistant professor, they were nice to me. Such fond memories.

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Yeah. Can you share with us what your parents were doing right then? My father, actually, he—when he were young, he's a lawyer. And in China—in Shanghai—and he has a lot of good clients.

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And- and they all very, very big businessmen, very important, very powerful politician in Shanghai at that time. And so afterwards, he— after he doesn't want to be a lawyer,

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he– he want to be a manufacturer— manufacture, like a factory. And then he- he doesn't have enough money himself. So, because he knows all those famous rich people and he's the founder of

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the paper mills, you know, in Jiaxin, the- the first one, they make the paper mill in Jiaxin. Big factory and make— produce paper in— the paper for the stationary, the paper for cigarettes, paper, and every kind of purpose for the

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paper. And so he– he– he has his clients to invest money in him. So he's not only the shareholder, he's the founder of also a shareholder, but he doesn't have enough money, but all his clients helping to make a big investment.

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So after one factory, they become three factory. One is Jiaxin, one's in Hongqiao. And another one in Yunnan, Kunming. So three big factory. They still there, not owned

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by the government. How many siblings do you have? How many what? Siblings, like sisters and brothers? Oh, I have, I have a half sister,

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which my father lost the first wife my—then he become a widow. And he married to my mother, my mother's much younger than him. So when–when I was born, he's already retired.

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He's already 50 years old, you know. And my half sister's like my mother. Yes. And he's like—she's like at least 16 years older than I am, you know.

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And I grew up with my-my father and my half sister because my mother and father really do not get along because they've such an age difference. So usually I just, you know, study under my- my sister's teaching me all these things because she's very, very bright.

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She's very clever woman, very bright. So she teach me everything I don't understand in school so I always get number one in school, but I'm actually lazy one. I don't– I don't go to library to study, I don't do a lot of things.

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But my– my– my– my sister is very brilliant student and she teach me everything so I can get very good points in school. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. So—

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Yeah. So I've grown up with my half sister. And I have another younger brother and younger sister, but I don't see them when I were young because they live with my mother in my, in my gran-

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grandmother's home. You know they separate for a long time, my father, my... Can you tell us about your Chinese name? Huang Huiying . And is there any metaphor behind the name?

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Any kind of meaning—? Well, it's–it's just— "Huiying” means 'a flower in the winter.' That means I have to be very strong. That's what— yeah.

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And, and also you were, kind of, experienced the Cultural Revolution. Can you tell us— No, I don't experience anything. I went to– went to Hong Kong.

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After I finish full-time university, I went to Hong Kong. So I don't know about Cultural Revo—. I don't know anything about it. Um— At that time I was in–in China, although Communist Party, you know,

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control the whole country, right. But there was very nice to me, you know, and, and I don't know anything about any difficulties. No, not me. And have your family experienced anything?

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No, my father always loved China. And, and he- he actually very support Communist Party. He automatically give the factory to the- to the Communist Party. You know. So they never punish him or anything

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like that, no. He's very— my father loved China and, and he cooperated with Communist Party, and he support them. Can you tell-tell us why you chose to move to Hong Kong?

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Because it must be— Because, the thing is, the trouble is, when I finish full-time University, the government wants to send me to a very far to work. Like Dongbei . I don't know how to say the, you know, Dongbei, it's the—and

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it's very cold over there. I don't want to go there. So then I tried to leave a China. I don't- I don't want to get a job from government because then I- I feel whatever they wanted me to do maybe I don't

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want to do, you know, so that's what I think maybe I go to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is— besides, I'm always afraid cold weather, my body. So I want to go to some warm place.

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And I don't like this job so I go to Hong Kong. So in your upbringing, what were some of the defining moments in your life? Or, kind of, what exposure to

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art and fashion did you have in your earlier life? No, no, I always like beautiful things because I don't like sports. And, so I don't play like other children, they play sports. So I like to buy little beautiful things a li–li–little

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beautiful picture to look at a long long time. That's what develop that I like art. And fashion, I don't know anything—when I was young, I don't know anything about fashion. But I like beautiful things always.

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What neighborhood in Shanghai were your family? I live I— my, my father has a house in the French section. In the French section. They have, you know, all them— they have French section, they have the German section, you know, in–in Shanghai.

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I live in the French section and near my school, not too far from school. And what were some of the childhood games that you remember playing? What game? Yeah, like, do you kind of have card game, or—? No, no, I never liked card and I don't— I like to look at movies.

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Oh! Yeah. International movie. I crazy about Adam Free , you know, Tyrone Power. All those movies. Wilbert Lee, you know, in the 1930s those movie yeah.

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No, I don't play game. I don't like gambling or play any game. I– I don't have girlfriends. Only- only classmates, you know, because my father like me stay home, you know, with him. He retired so he needs me to be companionship.

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I–I–I—he don't allow me to play outside with any other children. And what was the relationship like between you and your father? Like...? Very close. Very close. He teach me everything about what I have to do.

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He tell me I have to study hard. I have to work hard. Become independence. Don't–Don't rely on anybody.

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Like that. And did you aspire to become a fashion designer? No, n-not at all. I never dreamed to be a fashion designer. No. What was the moment that made—that you made

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that decision? No, because when I went to Hong Kong, I need a job. So I worked because I studied international trade. So somebody want a secretary in– in the publishing company. Need a secretary. And so I applied the job and

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they–they hired me, but I don't know how to do the secretary job because you have to know, you have to know shorthand. You have to know how to typing. I don't know all those things, but they hire me anyhow.

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So I feel very embarrassing. I cannot continue to do the job because I really don't know how, you know. In China we never learn shorthand typing, those things, we don't. So I don't know how and the– and the managers say— one of them,

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"What work can I do for you?" He says, and I said, "Well, I can learn." Then he says, "You cannot learn. I want a secretary right away to help me." And so– so then afterwards, I quit this job because I cannot continue to work for him.

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And somebody introduced me to a fashion designer. He's French— she's French. And she's a very good designer.

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She has a boutique salon in the Repository Hotel in Hong Kong, and she needs assistant. She needs assistant to translation her English to the Chinese worker. The Chinese worker do not understand English.

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And she— her English is also very bad, she mainly speak French. But I understand French little bit and my English is okay, so I can be assistant to her. But I don't know anything about fashion.

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So I learn something from her. That's what it is. But she don't need me to be assistant for her fashion.

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She needs me to translation all her ideas to the tailor, to the workers, because they don't understand what she talk about. That's what my job. Although she didn't kind of teach you how to do things, would you call her, like, the

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person who kind of led your way into the door of fashion? No, no, no. Me as a translation. But– but then sometime she says, "Do you think this evening gown is

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beautiful?" I say, "Yes. It's beautiful." I say, "Why you need a five linings?" You know, because she makes always very expensive couture fashion. Not ordinary people wear, mostly celebrities, a lot of movies are her

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client. And she says, "Yeah, that's what the– the high fashion needs four, five linings." Then she say, "You how can you so stupid, you don't understand that." And she has a very bad temper. Always say I'm stupid, because I don't know—

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ask a stupid question. And then after one year, I work for her, she retired, she doesn't want to work anymore. And she want to go back to

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Paris. And then I said, "Then I lost my job, right?" And she says, "Oh, doesn't matter. Y- You want to learn, I can put you to school in–in Paris. And you can learn more, you can be your own business, you know." I said, "Well,

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that would be nice." So she put me in a very, very high fashion school in– in Paris, Valleshego. Very big one. And because of her help,

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I get into the school. And– and I study everything about fashion— before I don't know anything—but I like it. I like beautiful dresses, all those things. I like to wear beautiful things, but I don't know anything about fashion.

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So I learn and th-then I didn't finish the whole course because takes few years to finish the course. And I don't like to live in Paris. I just feel lonesome over there. So that's what I– I went to Hong Kong— back to Hong Kong— and

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started my own business. That's the whole story. How was France for you? Was it— was French difficult for you to kind of transition into the language, the lifestyle... No, I know, I know French word.

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W- When I was in high school I— we studied, we studied French. I can understand what they talk but I don't talk very good. Very good people. But I understand what they talk, talk

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French, I understand what they talk. So it's kind of, when you were in Shanghai and Hong Kong and French was the first point of, kind of, European concept for you, did the kind of lifestyle in France, like

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did fashion styles and, like, lifestyles and— d- did it impact you in terms of how you, kind of, make clothing and fashion designs on your own? Well I have to because I cannot work in office.

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I'm not qualified to work in office. So I need a job and I think it's very interesting, fashion you know. After I learn, I think it's very interesting and I can do it.

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Some job, I cannot do it, this job I can do it. Of course I'm not in the number one famous designer, you know, but I know the whole idea, you know, how to make a beautiful clothes, and how– how you, you know, how you socially understand, you

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know, what the woman— how they wear those clothes, you know, the way there's I know. So and so I— and in Hong Kong, we have advantage, we have lot of good tailors. They hand-made everything good.

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So I started my own line called “Pandora” and first start a mail order business because I don't have money to open the big salon. So the mail order, she gave me the list of customers. So I start a mail order business, I–I save some

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money from the mail order business. Then I started my own– own salon, own– own the fashion salon. The first time is in the Kowloon side, called Ambassador Hotel, Ambassador Hotel. And then afterwards, then two years

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later, I went to– I went to Hong Kong Hilton Hotel, so become my own– own– own business and my own fashion salon. And then later on, I do export business, then I-I start a big factory. Everything I design, I make, I export to

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America, to– to London, and even to– to Greece, you know, to a lot of different country, export to them. Can you tell us how the name “Pandora” came from? Oh, that's a friend of mine.

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And actually, he's American. He thinks my name is called Dora. And he says to use Pandora name, he gave me the name. I don't know. I think it's cute, because my name is Dora.

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So he says Pandora. And then we also learned of the history of “Pandora” that connects with the current jewelry design of Pandora, so like, can you tell us that– that story? No, no. In my fashion salon, I have a little jewelry, not too much jewelry.

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Little bit. Because some people will say, "Oh, I wear this beautiful evening gown. What am I wear earring?" you know, "Would I wear earring with it?" So I have little bit jewelry, not– not expensive jewelry, like fashion

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jewelry. And so, I don't know, after close my store, I- I think they, people want to use my name as their jewelry line. And I don't know. I didn't sell to

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them. I don't sell my name to them, you know. But Pandora in Hong Kong is very, very, very famous afterwards, you know, so people like the name probably. I don't know.

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But I'm not meaning the jewelry business. I'm meaning the fashion business. I have little jewelry on the side, you know, when people want to wear something, you know, just fashion jewelry, not– not expensive jewelry.

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And just to learn more about the stories as you're coming into the main fashion circle, can you tell us what were some of the- the celebrities that you fell in with? Oh, I design a lot for the movie star.

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Because there was in Hong Kong—a lot of movie star come to Hong Kong make a movie, you know. And, and lot of tourists, they come very larger society maybe, a lot of rich society, the American society, they come to Hong Kong as a tourist, and

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they live in a hotel. So they came to my fashion salon, and they want me to design something for them. And I did. So I did like Miss America. She's– she didn't pay me because she– she's a young girl, you know, but I like her.

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I gave her a couple of things that I designed. And then I have, like a big movie star, like Walter Holten. And he came with his wife. And he had to make the movie.

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So he tell me to entertain his wife. Oh can I— how can I entertain his wife? I just make all the clothes for her.

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For Mrs. Walter— William Holten. That's what I think. That's amazing story that you're able to kind of— Many, many movie star come to Hong Kong make movies, and they– they come with a wife and I

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have to entertain the wife. And then I make things for them. I don't make men's clothes. I just want to make a woman's clothes. Yeah. I'm amazed, how do you go connect with them?

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They just walk into my salon. Oh, wow. Because it's open every day. So you have one salon or do you have multiple salons? No, only one salon in the Hilton hotel.

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Then I have a factory. If somebody like Neiman Marcus, they want to buy something from, they have to come to the factory. That's for the export but— not for the local, for the export. I'm the only owner and I do work like 12 hours a day on my— kill myself to work.

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Because so many things have to do. And, a lot of movie stars are in my collect- like Shirley MacLaine also my customer. And, like, financially, I'm also curious, like— No, there— I saved the money, I told you, from the mail order, started.

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And then the mail order business is doing very, very well. And I saved the money to open the store and the store makes money, then I make—I don't spend the money. I save the money to make the factory.

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So I started from nothing and developed in the 10 years getting bigger and bigger. Because I cannot get a good job from anywhere. That's how funny it is. I remember you told me when you initially moved to Hong Kong, you were

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only allowed something like 20 yuan in your pocket. Do you like— Yes, you're not allowed to go to Hong Kong, take lot of money. Leave– leave– leave China.

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Yeah, you don't allow. So– so then I don't have money in Hong Kong. So that's what I have to work, when I get to Hong Kong have to get a job. Right away. Even I don't know how to do the job, I have to get a job.

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Yeah, that's incredible. At what point did you decide to move to the US? Oh, no, that's a different story. I don't want to move to the United States.

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I came here to do fashion show. And I came since 19-1964, I've come to America every year, to do fashion show. So– so until 1975, almost 10

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years, every year, come to America. And I have a good time. Every time I come to America, a lot of department store entertaining me, a lot of good parties I attend. Sometimes I go to visit all the museums, and I have a good

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time. I never think I want to live in America. No, I never think about it. But the one time, I was working very hard in New York to– to prepare a fashion show, another fashion show. And I fainted, you know, in the– in the office, and then they

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deliver to me to the hospital. And the doctor said, "My God, young lady, you are too underweight, your– your– your– your– you have— your blood is not enough in the

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blood, and you're very weak. I don't– I don't think you can continue to work until you– until you relax for two or three years, until recover, maybe you can continue to work. Not right now." So what can I do, this work, every day I have to do work.

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So finally I think to myself. Either I want my health back, or I can continue my business. Because I'm the one person running the whole business.

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I don't have anyone who really help me. So I don't have partner, I don't have anybody really help me. So I struggling. I think I have enough the fashion business.

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Not only my health is going down, also the fashion change. Everybody want me to design sportswear and— including blue jeans. And I have no idea. I never play sports myself.

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I don't know what a sportswear looks like. So I tried to make a little sportswear line a- another line; and nobody likes it. They think it's not funny enough. You know, it's not really sportswear, it's still too classic-looking,

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you know what I mean, too, too formal-looking. So I know I cannot design sportswear. The profession change: the women wear pants, the women wear blue jeans; they don't wear cotton dress every day, you know?

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So I said, This is the time I should retire. Because I don't know how to do the sportswear. And I fail. The last fashion show I didn't do very well. The comments not that good like before.

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So then I had to relax. And the doctor says, "You stay America. The doctors are the best doctor, you know. Hong Kong doesn't have the kind of good doctor." So that's why— in a way, I don't

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even think I would live in America. Stuck in America for two or three years, the beginning. Then afterwards. I don't have anything Hong Kong anymore because I closed the factory.

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And I don't have any business. So I just live in America afterwards. And I like art. Then I go to study art under C.

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C. Wong. Yeah. And— but that time I cannot buy anything because I don't know anything. You know. So C. C. Wong teach me— he don't teach me how to paint because I don't wanna be a

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painter. He teach me how to recognize good art. And how– how you buy the art in auction. He teach me those things. So that's why I always go to Sotheby’s and Christie’s. I don't know what I buy, but I like what I buy, that's

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all. So that's the whole story. Then I started my art– art collecting. So how did you meet C. C. Wong? Oh, she's a— he's my– my father's friend.

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Yeah. So your father's also— did he— No my father also— they have the same teacher, Wu Hufan. Oh! Yeah. My father also under Wu Hufan; and C. C. Wong also under Wu Hufan.

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So they– they don't close each other very much like a friend because my father is older than C. C. Wong. But– but they know each other.

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But they know each other. So I- I go to C. C. Wong and right away he accepted me. That's wonderful. What kind of classes did you take from C. C. Wong? No, no, he had no class.

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He just one by one. Whatever I don't understand he teach me. No, there's no class. Do you remember the first piece of collection you had? Oh, yes, that's a very interesting story. Of course, C.

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C. buys th- the most famous artist, you know, Yuan and Song Dynasty, the C. C. collection. And I cannot buy because first of all too expensive. And then if he want to buy

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I cannot, I cannot buy against him. You understand what I mean? So then, I don't know what I buy. So one time, I have a girlfriend. She works in the Washington, a small auction house called

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Sloane, S-L-O-A-N-E. And sh- she's a good girl and she's my girlfriend and she doesn't understand paintings, Chinese painting. But she also work of art, Chinese art, an object with those.

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So we've become a good friend and then she tell me, she say, "Dora, we have some painting. Maybe not correct, maybe it's not real, you know, maybe it's attributed to," you know, “but if it cheap, you buy, because too expensive

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I don't have the kind of money to buy.” And so I look at and I- I think's very good, I like to buy, and then her boss tell me, "Dora, don't buy." I say, "Why?" He says, "This piece is to show in the– in the– in the one Museum, you

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know the Freer Art, F-R-E-E-R, in the Washington, DC, because the owner die. And the wife want to give this whole painting collection to the museum. And the museum don't think it's real.

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So they– they don't want it. So that's why the wife bring to the auction house to sell. He says, "If you want to buy real good things, don't buy those things. It may be not real." Because the museum doesn't want it, you know.

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Her boss told me not to buy. I said, "I don't care." Okay, those are—so then he told me not to– not to buy, and I'd to study again. And I think the price cheap, so I bought the whole collection.

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And then you know what? From this collection, I show to Sotheby’s and Christie’s, everybody says every piece is real, not fake, not attributed to, and I made a lot of money from this collection. I have the money to buy better

00:26:23.650 - 00:26:35.290

things. That's when I started my art. And I have confidence in myself because everybody say not real and I look and it's real. I bought and it become real. And I think it's real. So I recognize my eyes is good.

00:26:35.690 - 00:26:44.210

I don't have no rejection. W- we do next time, okay? Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much, Dora. Can you talk about how you started collecting?

00:26:47.920 - 00:27:02.980

Because I always like art—painting, object, even when I was a little girl. And my father used to collect paintings. He– he very interested in Chinese old paintings.

00:27:03.730 - 00:27:16.360

So we, in our house, we hung a lot of old paintings. And I help him to, to take care of it. But I don't understand. So I just– I just love to look at them.

00:27:17.340 - 00:27:31.880

So I have the traditional interest because my father interested in Chinese painting. So when I met C. C. Wong, and he—of course, he's the expert of the Chinese old painting, and he tell me how good they

00:27:31.880 - 00:27:46.210

are, and how rare they are, how treasures they are. And so I became very interested— of course, some of the old painting, the real good one, the masterpiece in auction I cannot afford to buy, they're very, very expensive.

00:27:47.010 - 00:28:01.310

So I told this story, I started to bought a collection, painting, which is— American gentleman has it, and the museum doesn't want it and I bought from the auction.

00:28:02.160 - 00:28:13.680

And they think it's a fake. And I- I bought it and C. C. Wong says it’s fantastic— it's all real. And I've made a lot of money and it makes me have a confidence to continue to buy.

00:28:15.060 - 00:28:24.560

Maybe I have good eye, but I don't have knowledge at the time. So I still have to learn it. Yeah. And what steps did you take to learn that skills and training

00:28:26.580 - 00:28:38.590

your eyes? No, my eye because I was in the fashion business. So art and fashion, they all beautiful things. So– so in that I can close– close to— I cannot learn any other things in other words, but to learn art is very quickly.

00:28:38.970 - 00:28:53.580

I can absorb the feelings and everything. Did you have a strategy when building your collection? Not really, because it's opportunity. If I cannot get a lot of good pieces the collection doesn't mean anything.

00:28:54.000 - 00:29:06.940

So I'm just looking very hard all over the world. Some of this in the– in the– in the auction, in the Paris, in London, in Sweden, even in Japan. I pay attention to what they have.

00:29:07.530 - 00:29:20.980

So a lot of times if I have the opportunity I can get a little cheaper, I bought from all over the world. It depends on the opportunity, how I can get it. You mentioned that you sought your works from auction houses.

00:29:21.040 - 00:29:37.160

Can you talk about how you started getting familiar with the auction business? Your relationship with an auction business? Oh I— well I– I interest in to go to the auction because you

00:29:37.160 - 00:29:48.160

never know, every time you go, you hope you can get it, you know. It's not like you go to department store you can always buy. So auction house is depends on how many people bidding.

00:29:48.650 - 00:30:01.400

So if I lucky, then I can got it, you know. So that's why I'm very interest in auction. I'm not interest to go to antique shop just to buy what they say. And then if I don't understand, the major auction

00:30:02.240 - 00:30:12.040

house, like Sotheby’s and Christie’s, they all have experts. And they're very nice. They can teach me little bit and they tell me “this– this y-you don't have to buy, maybe not that good.

00:30:12.280 - 00:30:25.210

This one's very good, good. You can buy.” You know, they can teach me a little bit before I buy. Yeah, I was fascinated with the anecdote that you told me about the, your- your dog in the Auction House.

00:30:25.260 - 00:30:37.740

Can you talk— tell us a little bit about that? Oh, I see. I- I love animals. And this dog actually is a gift for me from my friend. And because his eyes not

00:30:37.740 - 00:30:54.100

very good so I— it's like, by nature, I mean, he is one of the eyes is– is not too clear to look at things. So I always holding him when I go out because he cannot walk very good by himself. So I- I holding him in auction room.

00:30:54.830 - 00:31:12.450

And one time, I don't know, all of sudden he raised his hand. So the auctioneer say, "Are you bidding?" you know. He says, "I take your bid." That's how interesting he is. Of course, I- I waved my– my hand, I- I said, "No, no, he

00:31:12.450 - 00:31:25.190

cannot buy." So everybody knows this dog. You know, he's very famous in the auction house. Because every time I don't want to leave him home, and I love him and he cannot walk around too much.

00:31:25.270 - 00:31:38.520

So he's very well-behaved. And so I can always hold her— hold him. He's a Shih Tzu. The dog's—the breed is Shih Tzu. Very pretty. Very

00:31:38.520 - 00:31:52.000

small, tiny dog. Can you tell us a little bit more about the dogs you had? I remember you told me that they're like, six or seven of them that you– you had.

00:31:52.000 - 00:32:04.660

Oh no, I–I never buy a dog. And— But usually, because I love animals, and I can– I can take care of them because I have time. So a lot of my friends— and they knew that I love

00:32:04.740 - 00:32:15.010

dogs, and I have time to take care of them because I don't have a really job to go out. So when the dog get old, they need somebody special taking care of him or her.

00:32:15.700 - 00:32:31.860

So they gave to me the older dog, which they don't have the time to take care of them. So I have happen to have two or three other. Afterwards I have—since this dog die, and I have two or three older dogs, senior dog, and I take care of them, you know, until they die.

00:32:31.890 - 00:32:47.190

Can you tell us a little bit about some of the highlights of your collection? I've mainly collected... For example... … Rhino– Rhino horn cups, which is antique.

00:32:48.240 - 00:33:02.090

And, mostly from 14th century to 18th century and is made of Asian Ronald rhinoceros, n- not the Africa one. They are very, very good. And they've good carving that time.

00:33:02.330 - 00:33:18.820

Usually in the old days, those rhinoceros is very expensive, the horn. So they made specially— the artist is very, very good artist. And they caught for specially for the king, you know, or maybe big officers, you know, but

00:33:19.270 - 00:33:28.240

ordinary people cannot afford to have it. So this thing's very- very rare. And it's only like, the best pieces only like 200 pieces in the whole world.

00:33:28.530 - 00:33:42.270

They make, of course they make 1000, 2000 all together. But th- the good ones only less than 200, and most of them in the- in the museum. And so that's what I think it's very- very good place to collect, and C.

00:33:42.270 - 00:33:54.260

C. Wong agree, that he say, “you should collect that. And it's all real, you don't have to ask me if a fake can really.” And, so, but sometimes the price is very high, I cannot afford it.

00:33:54.260 - 00:34:07.960

But sometimes, you know, depends on if I lucky, I get one very good ones. And each one is only one piece. You'll never find two pieces look the same, never. The artist only paint—carve the one

00:34:08.030 - 00:34:23.350

piece and put the name on the– on the– on the cup and give to the– to the very high officer or the king. So I feel if a painting, there's a many many painting, one artist that can paint 2000 pieces.

00:34:24.080 - 00:34:35.910

This kind of carving, and artists only make one of each kind. So to me it's very- very precious to me. So- so I collect almost 30, 40 very good

00:34:35.910 - 00:34:53.700

pieces, my collection. And, unfortunately right now the– the Wildlife Department, they don't understand this kind of antique of cups. They think it's made in same thing with the African horn.

00:34:54.080 - 00:35:05.740

They don't want people to kill the rhino in the Africa. But the African horns no good, you know. They– they can make it a–a–a object, but not as good-looking as the Asian horn.

00:35:05.740 - 00:35:19.320

And the Asian rhinoceros horn, it's– it's– it's extinct, no more. Even the 18th century's, very little left. So they don't understand the difference. So in the law— right now the law cannot sell because they don't know.

00:35:19.340 - 00:35:32.400

They just think maybe you sell that people will kill more rhino. Actually the rhino's in Africans are entirely different species. Yeah. And then my— another collection is the court painting, because I cannot buy

00:35:32.420 - 00:35:44.350

the real master work. Like a Wen Zhengming , Wang Yuanqi . This kind of famous Song Dynasty, Ming Dynasty master work, because cost a lot of money.

00:35:44.520 - 00:35:57.640

And besides, my teacher want to buy. I cannot against him, you know, yeah. And so I collect the court painting, which is very good artist painted. They– they usually court painter, paint for the king

00:35:57.640 - 00:36:09.080

and the royal family. But th-they're not allowed to sign their name on the painting. So people say they just like ancestor portrait. They think it’s nothing, you know.

00:36:09.400 - 00:36:23.350

Actually it’s a very important painting, so I can have opportunity to buy a little cheaper that this way. Yeah. So I have very good court painting, mostly the portrait of the royal family like the king's brother, king's

00:36:24.970 - 00:36:41.500

son, you know, I have a very good portrait painting, including the bannerman painting, which I have four very good bannerman painting. They only one of each kind, so I have it, other people don't have it. So that's why all the museum interesting to display for them,

00:36:42.190 - 00:36:55.830

and display them. And also they want me someday I can give to them or sell to them, whatever it is. Can we also talk a bit about the chair that you're sitting on, which is the...

00:36:55.830 - 00:37:07.270

Oh this, this is— I- I like antique things. So I like antique furniture also. Those furniture made in the wood call Huanghuali wood, which the wood is extinct also.

00:37:07.960 - 00:37:26.500

Usually they– they grow in Hainan Dao. And in the very hot tropical weather, you know, but they grow every year, very little bit. So since in the Ming Dynasty, everybody likes this kind of wood, and they cut off all the trees so–

00:37:26.750 - 00:37:41.030

so the– the- they extinct, the tree's extinct. You'd have to wait for another couple hundred years to grow up, grow back again. Because every year they grow very little. And so this kind of furniture become very rare.

00:37:41.710 - 00:37:53.730

And very, very expensive. So I fortunately, in the—not now—in the 80s and 90s, I bought some pieces. I- I use it myself not for investment and not for– for–

00:37:54.110 - 00:38:04.560

for– any other reason. Because I think to buy modern furniture, you use it, it doesn't worth any money. This kind of furniture every, every year they grow more value.

00:38:05.750 - 00:38:15.270

So that's why I like it. I like the look. They're beautiful. They like a golden color, you know, golden yellow color. And it's— the wood is very refined.

00:38:16.390 - 00:38:30.370

And workmanship is, of course it's good because the wood is so expensive, they cannot have the cheap workmanship. So I just loved them, to use it in my home. Can you also talk

00:38:30.540 - 00:38:44.430

about your motivation for collecting? I'm sure besides the emotional and the financial benefit you had, this connection with— as you said, time and history, can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:38:46.580 - 00:39:05.000

What mean the history? Like the– the motivation for collecting, like when you see a piece of work that is from many many years ago that is so delicate and, and ornamented— I–I just have the feeling and emotion, and patient, you

00:39:05.210 - 00:39:17.850

know, to love them. I don't think about really the time I bought it, I don't know how, how much they will go price, I don't know. I just love them and I can afford to buy, I just buy, you know.

00:39:18.210 - 00:39:27.510

So, but of course you have to have a little good collection people enjoy to, you know, look at. You cannot just have one piece. That's what accumulated the same thing.

00:39:27.530 - 00:39:39.870

I don't want to buy any other type stuff, because I want to make a very good collection, and all the museum interesting, they've display for me already. All my things is already display in Hong Kong

00:39:39.890 - 00:39:57.270

Museum, in the Washington, DC Freer Art Museum, and Peabody Museum, and China Institute, you know, many many different museums in the whole world. So they know my collection, a lot of museum knew my collection and they love it.

00:39:58.460 - 00:40:12.870

Yeah, especially Washington, DC Freer Art Museum. They say, "Dora, you have to leave something to us, in the future." And I promised them I will. That's amazing that you're contributing your art

00:40:13.680 - 00:40:30.110

for the public pleasure as well as your own. And I'm also amazed that you've always been very supportive of the younger, Chinese art, contemporary artists. Can you talk about the like, some of the anecdotes and how you met

00:40:30.300 - 00:40:47.410

these artists and how you support them? Well, I- I really don't understand contemporary art. Sometime, I think, a little bit too wild, you know. Not like the classical Chinese paintings: very, very calm, you know, very

00:40:47.410 - 00:40:56.980

soothing, you know. With contemporary arts sometime I get shocked with my eyes. And I-I couldn't say they good or bad, because I'm really not an expert to–

00:40:57.210 - 00:41:11.400

to talk like that. But I encourage people, especially the young, younger artists, encourage them to paint better, better. And if I can help them, if they want help showing in the museum,

00:41:11.830 - 00:41:22.760

or maybe trying to sell one or two pieces in auction, if I know any connection, social connection, I will introduce to them, I will help them. But I'm not expert on contemporary myself.

00:41:24.360 - 00:41:40.470

Thank you for sharing and, I'm amazed how modest you are given how much you've done for the younger artists. And if you were to share some advice for the younger generations of collectors, or aspired collectors, what

00:41:40.470 - 00:41:50.730

would you tell them? Well, I say you have to work harder, harder every day, you know. You cannot just think about you'll be famous in one day, or you can sell millions of dollars right away.

00:41:51.140 - 00:42:04.300

I say you have to continue to work hard, to–to look at more other people's work, and to learn more. And then one day, eventually you will be very successful. Thank you so much for sharing.

00:42:05.080 - 00:42:26.060

And next I'm also wondering how your identity as an Asian American or Chinese American in, in the art scene in New York has impacted your kind of establishment as a collector. Well, I just tried to do the best I can do.

00:42:26.080 - 00:42:43.620

Yeah. But I cannot compare with a lot of bigger, bigger collectors, because they're usually big industry businessman. They can buy anything they want, you know, but I think even my collections not the big, big

00:42:43.800 - 00:42:58.300

quantity, I think it's very unique and very meaningful not only to me, to– to the next generation; because they cannot find this kind of thing anymore. They cannot find the Asian rhinos horn carving anymore.

00:42:58.640 - 00:43:15.360

They cannot find the court painting anymore. They can find any other art, but they cannot find this kind of art. Yeah. And I'm also curious: since you came to the US by yourself and as an Asian woman and in a very kind

00:43:15.420 - 00:43:26.510

of male-dominated art scene in New York, like have you felt that you had to work and like— I have to work harder. Yeah. R-Really, I had to work harder.

00:43:26.920 - 00:43:39.440

And I only by the thing they don't pay attention, you know? Because like the court painting—most the people if they're not so understand history and everything they don't—they think the

00:43:39.440 - 00:43:49.690

court painting don't give the artist the name. 'Cause they buy the name. If it's a Wen Zhengming they would buy; if it's not Wen Zhengming, they don't buy. So the court painting has no artist's name, they just think no good, so

00:43:49.760 - 00:44:05.840

that's why they don't p-pay attention to it. Yeah. And I also want to pivot into your connection with Texas since you went on a number of road shows and you work with department stores when—in your fashion designing

00:44:05.980 - 00:44:18.770

life. I went to Texas because the Neiman Marcus is one of my- my clients and Mr. Stanley Marcus, very interesting my, my creation, you know, in the clothing business.

00:44:19.310 - 00:44:33.090

And so he invited me every time. Every year he invited me to go there, have a– have a show in their– in their store. And then he invites a lot of people, lot his customer, to–to try my things and t-to sell to the local,

00:44:33.610 - 00:44:48.040

mostly society lady, and very rich woman in Texas. So they help them to get more business and help me more famous in America. I have a very good relationship with Mr. Stanley Marcus and his brother Lawrence Marcus.

00:44:50.780 - 00:45:05.850

And in your own, like, fashion, like, in your own closet, what kind of fashion do you like to adorn yourself with? You mean what I wear myself? Yes. Well, I'm a petite person so I

00:45:06.090 - 00:45:22.850

can buy other designer's clothes very cheap because they cannot sell the petite size easily. And most American ladies very tall and very big, so I can get cheaper that way. I- I would buy sometimes famous American designer's things.

00:45:23.830 - 00:45:35.260

But mostly I wear my own design. Because I have my tailors, I have my workers, they can make for me very cheap in my own workshop. And so I wear my own clothes and my

00:45:35.340 - 00:45:44.100

own design a lot of times. Sometimes I buy other, other designer's clothes. Sometimes other designer liked me, they gave me– they gave me their sample, so I could wear.

00:45:45.790 - 00:46:03.290

Amazing. And were you like one of the very few Asian fashion designers back then in New York in the, I guess, in the 1960s, right? 60s and 70s. I started– I started in 1960, yeah.

00:46:03.810 - 00:46:19.450

Yeah, but I work almost 15 years in the fashion world. In Hong Kong, yeah. Were you one of the few Asian female— No, not so many people do the same, like they just have store in Hong Kong, they don't go outside, they don't go America, go to England.

00:46:20.230 - 00:46:38.020

No, only me. I go every year, go other country. Were there any point in time during your career or your collecting kind of life— were you kind of racially discriminated against? Do you feel that?

00:46:38.020 - 00:46:52.160

No, no, I j-just on the opposite. They all amazing that being a Chinese woman can do that kind of work, because a lot of American lady can do a lot of things. The Chinese lady usually just be housewife, or stay home,

00:46:52.160 - 00:47:01.610

you know. So they're very amazing. Everybody say, "How can you do that? How can you do that?" I say, "Well, I've just tried my best." And so I get more attention and

00:47:01.610 - 00:47:15.910

more admire from American people like that. Because very, very unique. You know, somebody like me, come to America, a woman, a Chinese woman. You must be very, very proud of yourself.

00:47:16.470 - 00:47:29.500

No, I don't. I-I-I-I don't know. I just try my best. But that's all. And I remember you told me that you work so hard during your early life in your 30s that you kind

00:47:31.140 - 00:47:48.250

of burnt out a little bit in your physical health. Can you tell us what drove you to work so hard back then? Well, I have to because I have a big responsibility. I have 300 people depend on their living on me.

00:47:49.290 - 00:48:01.320

My workers, I have to pay them every week, you know. So if I don't work hard, I don't get enough orders from customers. I have no money to pay them. And you know, so that's what— I have big responsibility.

00:48:02.490 - 00:48:11.550

I need a lot of custom orders to keep them busy, in other words. Because I pay them by pieces. If they work 10 pieces a day, they

00:48:11.550 - 00:48:22.450

get how much money; if they make 15 pieces, they get more money. So I have to get a lot of orders from– from the different customers, you know. So that's why I have to work hard.

00:48:24.220 - 00:48:38.460

I have responsibility— not for my own- own thing. If my own thing I-I-I-I don't have to work that hard. If I'm just designer for some company, then I don't have to work that hard. Because I have to support all those workers.

00:48:39.100 - 00:52:34.520

So I have to get enough quantity to– to pay them, to let them busy every day. That's fascinating.