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Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Singhal. My name is Sam Lee and today I'll be interviewing you on the behalf of HAAA. To start with, do you mind telling me a little bit more about your early life? Where and when were you

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born? I was born in India, in a small town called Morar, which is in Gwalior—a mid-size city in the state of MP, which is the Central State in India.

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I was born in '67. And... is that all you needed? That's pretty good. Yeah, you-you can feel free to like, elaborate and talk about whatever else you want.

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There's—it's-it's an open-ended interview So yeah, um, yeah. So if you want to elaborate a little bit more on your childhood, and like, maybe more of the household you grew up in? I know you have a few siblings, correct?

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Yes. So I'm the-I'm the oldest of four siblings—four kids in my family. And this was the first time that in my family, we had more than one son in three generations.

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So three brothers and a sister. And my family was... financially they were well off to Indian standards, but from the perspective of sophistication, they were not.

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They were—basically we were grain-traders, and made well and, you know, dealt with rice and, you know, lentils and that sort of thing. So I had the unique background where my family was, you know,

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financially fine. But we were, you know, sort of living very simple lives. If you came to my home, you would not feel that I was well off.

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In fact, I was ashamed for most of my life to have friends come over to my home, because I was sent to an all-boys boarding school when I was nine years old. And this school obviously had kids from all over the country and even from

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Indian diaspora from abroad. And—so I was almost like a Tarzan, you know, coming from some jungle to this civilized school, elitist school.

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And I never wanted them to come to my home. So that's the kind of the dualism— but I had my grandfather who was very well respected in his community. He employed 100 people at that time.

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And-and he was well regarded, he was considered like a leader of his community. But the lifestyle was very uncouth, very sort of—we didn't even have proper furniture at home. We just, you know, things like that.

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So that was my unique background. I had both sides of—I live like a poor person, but I wasn't poor. Let's put it this way. Okay, that's very interesting.

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I think you touched on like what your parents did, but would you feel comfortable elaborating a bit more on what kind of occupations they had? Yes. So my father—my mother was a housewife . She worked at home, and I think she worked harder than

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anybody else. You know, she washed clothes, she did cleaning at the house, even though we had people helping us at home. But she did cooking, she did—and my—we lived in a joint

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family. So my grandparents were with us. And my grandmother and mother would always work in the kitchen and the house. And my father joined his father's business because he went to the same boarding school, but he left

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after his ninth or tenth grade, and got married when he was 17 years old. My mother had me when she was 17. So they joined the family business.

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Nobody before me had a high school education. So my father joined his father's business and he started a small factory where they were manufacturing lentils, basically. And they-they did mustard oil—they basically processed mustard oil and

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things like that. These are very small operations, but they did that in that city. I see. That's very cool, actually. I think you were talking a little bit about like your boarding school. Is this something that you went from like middle school, high school, was it kind of

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combined? So I was 9 years old. So I started in fourth grade. And before that, I was in a convent school in my hometown, and this boarding school I started at-at age

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9. And as I was saying that it was a shock for me because it was—I was not used to an organized life or a clean— that sort of, you know, people spoke English there, and I was suddenly

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was, you know, always on the back-blacklist that I couldn't speak English. And at that time in India, English was a big deal. That if you didn't speak, it was almost like a back-backward class—er caste you were from—class.

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And so I struggled with that. In the beginning, I couldn't speak a sentence. I couldn't say—in fact, I didn't understand a sentence. And this boarding school experience is what

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I am today. I did not become bitter, despite a lot of struggles and a lot of, you know, stress that I had to go through that were ragging and hazing by seniors. The teachers were not friendly most of the time, at least, from my perspective.

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But I wasn't bitter. I fought through it. And by the time I came to 12th grade, I was a prefect. A house prefect. I became—I was good in sports.

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I was not good in studies. I actually flunked my 12th grade. That's another story. But-but I fought through and to describe my boarding school

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experience is like—have you seen the movie Shawshank Redemption? Okay, so this is a movie in a prison setting. So I like to call my school as like Shawshank Redemption lite, where nobody was killing anybody, but pretty much everything else was happening.

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Yeah. That definitely sounds like a tough learning curve. Yeah, yeah. But—and nobody expected me to do anything with my life at that stage. They all thought I was some loser who's gonna join his dad's business.

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In fact, somebody predicted that I would join my dad's business and destroy it. So here I am, you know, talking to you, being interviewed for you know, at least being

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an Asian American who's done okay, right? You've done amazing. Was this like boarding school, kind of like, a private school that like you paid tuition for? I'm assuming if it was, there was like—I think you touched on it— but like, there's

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like some class disparity, obviously. And you were from a rural area, you mentioned sort of more, like, remote compared to an urban setting? Well, the city-the city had

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almost a million people in it. But from Indian standards, it was still a very small town. And it—I won't call it a rural area, but the lifestyle was rural.

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Let's put it this way. It had that backward city mentality. and the-the-the royal family from that city, you know, still had more of control. So there's a lot of feudal

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elements to it in terms of politics and that city, even as of today. In fact, after I'm talking about 50 years later, they still have that same mentality. So it's not rural-rural as such, but my grandfather, because he dealt with a lot of

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rural people, like villagers who came to sell their grains to him and talk to him. So I was surrounded by those kinds of people. I saw, in fact, they were almost every day, there were 20-30 bullock carts in front of my father's—my

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grandfather's office shop. And I remember, they used to spend nights there because they didn't have a place to stay. And in winters, they'll have a little bonfire. And I'd remember spending times with them and they used to give me

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a lot of attention because I was the kid from this family. So that way, I had the experience of the rural side and school certainly, the thing with the school was that you had kids from kids, you had kids from wealthy families all over

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India. And so the class difference was for me was that I was very uncouth. In terms of my polish at that time. And because of the language, suddenly I was even worse

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because I couldn't even—and they looked down at me—most of the time, they looked down at me, thinking—there was a term used Loceel, which meant that somebody was from local, sort of rural area, kind of backward area.

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So they'd call me loceel, you know, and I was not the only one. There were other kids from my kind of backgrounds, and they-they were in a similar situation. So for me to be sort of polished, now talking with more

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sophistication. That's-that's a 360 degree change. I mean, I have come full cycle. I couldn't talk like that and they, you know, people

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from that time, they still can’t believe it that I talk like this now. That's crazy. Oh, just curious, can I get the name of the boarding school? Yes, yes.

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It was Scindia School. So it's like India and if you add "sc" before India. This was the name of the royal family from that town.

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They had the school in their name. It's—now it's almost 130 years old. And the first few principal—first principal was the British principal. So they had—I like to joke, they took all the bad

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British habits, and they combined it with all the bad Indian habits. Alright. I know your parents, they decided—I know your father went to the boarding school so he kind of decided you should go there as well.

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Could you maybe talk about your parents' hopes and expectations for you at that point, and maybe touch on a couple of values they might have instilled upon you? Hold on—I'm so sorry. I'm

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sorry. Like I said, it's a public study room. But I'm so sorry. Do you want me to repeat the question? No, no, no, I got the question.

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That's a great question by the way, Sam. So you know, the—I'm talking about the 60s and 70s, the India of that time, we were just coming out of, you know, British rule, right?

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We had become independent in '47. Still, India of that time was like two cars, two bars of soap—brands of soap, and one TV in Delhi station.

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Nothing in my town. And a lot of population, people struggling to even make a living. But one thing that generation of my parents had—and I'm sure you can relate to this—is they were obsessed with education.

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They thought the only way to get out of the middle class rut was through education. And they actually—my father always discouraged me to go to his business because it was not as sophisticated. They were making good money.

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They were not poor. But he never encouraged me to go there. And I never liked it, the way they ran it. There was no place to sit there. Everything was everywhere.

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It was like dust everywhere, muddy. So my father actually wanted me to be an engineer. And science was the big deal with our parents.

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And even now, I think it's still there with Asian families, the medicine and engineering. So my dad used to take me to the market— which was far from our home—and he would take me from the longer

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way where the engineering college was. And I remember he would always show it to me, “That's your future. That’s your future.” And I was terrible at math and physics and sciences. And the other reason was—the other reason I

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was terrible in it was that—the language. You know, the English has been my struggle and now I'm a lawyer; the tool of my profession is the language. But this language has been a very difficult subject for me throughout because

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I-I struggled with it. And the teachers struggled with it. When they taught you math in English medium, they didn't know how to express themselves.

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I never even learned the basic concepts. And maybe I was not for it. But I remember, like a year ago, my 13 year old son at that time, showed me that priority method, how you solve an

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equation. I did not even know that first you deal with multiplication and division, then you go with pluses and minuses. You know, so-so they—the value they gave me was that I had to be a professional because we came from a business

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family. And my father always said, “I want you to be an engineer. You work for somebody for few years, then we do some big business-sophisticated business.” That was his idea. And in Indian —school system, you elect your,

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you know, choice of career after 10th grade. So he basically realized he'd forced me to like engineering and math and chemistry.

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And I had barely passed these things until 10th grade, I was barely passing or not even passing. Sometimes the teachers were just letting me go. You know? So in 11th grade I struggled. 12th was a board exam.

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It finally-finally hit me where I couldn't deal with it and I failed. I flunked. And so that was the worst thing that could happen to you after a boarding school 12th grade because the school doesn't take you back anymore.

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So now you have to just take the exam through the board—the board itself, and you go sit somewhere. So I chose that school to go back to just take the exam, but I had to study on my own after

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flunking. And the blessing was that, it was—it felt like I lost ground on the feet. But the blessing was that I started thinking for myself. That's the first time I started making decisions for myself because I didn't

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find a friend. The relatives were kind of making fun of me. There was all kinds of sarcasm going around among friends and family. And I decided that I need to make my own decision.

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And I basically respectfully said to my dad, that, “I'm going to give up this, and I'm going to go into economics and accounting.” He wasn't pleased. But that's the best decision, the

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first ever major decision I made for my life. And that's why I'm sitting here in front of you. Because next year when I took that exam, and I took a tutor, who basically taught me those courses

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in less than eight months for two years worth of courses. And I came first in that class that year among the kids who took-took those courses. So I wasn't stupid, but I just wasn't meant for math, physics and science.

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So the values, I failed him in some ways, but now if you ask him, he's happy that I made that decision. So. Yeah, that's amazing. I know, like, you said, you finished, like 12th grade there and took like— I guess

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it's like a gap year— but did you do university over in India, or did you...? Yes. So. And then remember, you talked about my town. So the one thing I got from my school was that I had

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my best friend who was from Delhi. And his father was a lawyer, one of the really well known lawyers in India. He actually represented Indira Gandhi who used to be the Prime Minister of India. And he used to show me his articles

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and some magazines. So I remember my first feeling was that I need to—and I—he took me one time, I visited him in Delhi, and I went to his home, you know, from now I go to his

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home, it's the same home, he's no more but his parents, his mother is still connected to me. So his home was like what we are used to homes here, it was a clean home, it was a well organized— everything was in place.

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And I felt like, my God, this is the life I want for myself. And so I wanted to get out of my home city. And when I flunked, I—then I took the exam. My scores were good,

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but they were still not good enough to be—to get into a good Delhi college, the one that I wanted to be in. I couldn't. So there was a—Delhi University had a program where you could take it by correspondence.

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Like not online, but correspondence that they let you take the exam under their umbrella, and they give you the books and you prepare for yourself. So I chose that option and took the

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first two year college courses through correspondence. And-and I did well after that second year, and then I went to the college where I wanted to be in, that particular college, and

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asked them if they'll accept me as a transfer student. And they did. So— Sorry to interrupt. Do you mind sharing the name of the college? Yes, the name of the college was Ramjas.

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R. A. M. J. A. S. And—so finally, I got my feet there. But the problem in Delhi was that I didn't have a place to stay. And it's very expensive.

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So by this time, my father's business had gone down significantly, my grandfather was no more. So it was difficult. So I was basically piling on different

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places, taking a small room on a third floor of somebody's home with no bathroom, no windows, that sort of thing. It's like a closet that we have here here. And so I did my undergrad in commerce, which is business under graduation

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and from Delhi University at Ramjas College. And then I did law from Delhi as well. So I did well after commerce undergrad, which was enough for me to get into law school in Delhi University.

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So I did law as well from Delhi, which is a LLB. So. I see. Was there a reason you kind of switch from like your economics to like law?

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Well, the business, the economics and accounting was for the business background. I didn't know what else to take otherwise, because I didn't want history or arts for sure. So the business side—and I'm glad that I took because

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as a business litigator, those accounting principles really helped me when I look at the books, when I look at the finances. You know, the understanding of those concepts is really helpful. So that's the reason and law was always

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on my mind. I just didn't know what to do in undergrad. So. So that was the best option. If you don't mind, maybe we can switch from like, maybe talking about your background more to like immigration.

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I know you immigrated here from your form, like, when you're—after, you know, I think, in your 30s, I believe? 25, sorry. Can you talk more about your immigration experience?

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Yeah. So before that, you know, when I did law, I started working. Even throughout law school, I was working for a lawyer there. And my other goal was politics.

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I actually really, at some point of time, I started thinking about Indian politics. I really wanted to be a Indian politician. I had the zeal of changing India's whatever, make India— and I had this goal that I'll be 100% made in India.

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I did not want to go anywhere. US was not an option for me. I never even considered that. But what happened when I was in third year law school, I met some professors from

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Franklin Pierce Law Center in New Hampshire who were visiting. And they had a summer program that they were selling. And I met one of them, you know, met them and they gave me the literature. So I just had happened to just

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send it. Applied, just fill out that form and send it. And in '93, you know, I got a letter from them saying I had been accepted. But the tuition was about $6,000. And then plus, I didn't—I had about maybe like $1500 that my dad had

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given me to start a career in Delhi. And so I wrote to them saying I can't afford it. So Professor Hennessy, who used to be—the professor I actually just met him a year ago, when I was visiting his school.

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He—they called me and they said, you know what, they'll waive the tuition, as long as I can afford to come, just to, you know, with my ticket and take care of my living expenses, and I could work at the library, make some

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money there. They'll waive my tuition. So I took that chance, I was coming only for summer, only for a six-week course. Nobody from my family ever came to drop me at the airport from Delhi.

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I had never taken a flight before that. I had never seen a plane before that. So I thought I was going for summer.

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And I was scared, because, you know, the $1500 that I had was about to finish. But I met a lawyer who was very successful in Delhi who was considering—I was considering working with. And I asked him— he was really well respected in the

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70s—and I said to him, "Sir, what do you think? I have this admission. But if I go and I come back, I don't know how this is going to help me. And I'm going to lose all my

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savings." And he says to me that, “You know, obviously, it's your decision, Dinesh. But let me tell you something.” And-and foreign travel is not as much a big deal anymore for anybody, even in India, but at that time, it was a big

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deal. So he says to me that, “All I can tell you is that a foreign trip like this can change your life.” And he didn't elaborate or anything. And I said to him, would I have a job when I come back.

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He says, “We'll talk. We're working on it.” That's what he said. I took this leap of faith, and I applied for a visa. And the visa officer at US consulate

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had asked me—because at my age 24 at that time, or 25, no kid—students didn't get visas. So he asked me, "Why do you want to go for summer school?" And I said to him that, you know, “I'm going for this IP course.”

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And the reason was that at that time, US always used to put India in a particular category under some trade section where they said India was not opening its markets so it was always being punished for that. And I said, "Look, I

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want to understand this aspect of it. What is your problem with this and so we can deal with it." And-and I thought he would get upset at me for being so frank, saying that you guys put us in this

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pen-penalizing situation. We don't like it. So we want to deal with you. We want to learn your system and then fight with you about that. And he gives me the visa.

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So here I am for summer school for a month and a half. And with plans to go back, and there was another reason that I normally don't share. But you know, I had met somebody from—who had just graduated from Harvard, an

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Indian origin girl. She was from Harvard, and she had taken a year off teaching in India in a boarding school, some boarding school. So I met her by chance.

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And we, you know, fell in love. And she was gonna come back, and we were going to get married. She was going to come back. And she lived in Cambridge.

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So when she found out about my admission, she said, "Hey, you should come and see where I'm from. And then we come back in November, and get married." We had a date set.

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And so it was an added incentive for me to come. And so I came. And after summer school, our relationship went down, the parents didn't like me or whatever. And, you know, I was, basically

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they didn't think I was gonna be anybody. So that relationship fell apart. But the other thing that happened was that I met a—you know, my cousin was getting married.

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And his wife's brother had a joint venture firm in Cambridge, Boston. And when I met him at the wedding, he said, "Hey, we were doing some joint winter work in Russia, and potentially in India. And I like some law clerk, kind of a guy who can look at our legal

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documents. So before we give it to the law firms. So would you work for me?" I said, "I'd love to!" because I wanted my $1500 back by November. And-so he offered me a job right?

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After I was coming out of summer school out of nowhere. And I—my only feeling was that maybe I'll save my relationship. And also, maybe I'll have some more money, you know.

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He—so he offered me $8 an hour. Right? And I was excited. $8 dollars an hour was a big deal at that time. This is '93.

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And so-so I started working for him. And I was struggling, because suddenly my English—the Indian education is not the same. The—you know, I can't write the way these guys write here.

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I couldn't type at that time. So I'm struggling. So six months later, he pretty much tells me that he doesn't think he can sustain me, but he had done my H-1B. So remember, I came as a student.

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But before I could work for him, he did my H1B for two years. But in six months, he tells me that he can't sustain this, and I don't blame him because I was struggling. I wasn't even earning eight

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bucks an hour. And then my—and I was stressed out about this relationship that was going downhill. So I lose my job. And-and then she, you know, basically breaks up with me, which, you know.

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So this is the second—this thing, and I was almost about to take a flight back home. And I didn't plan but this is the first time I felt that now maybe I need to prove myself.

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But I didn't have a place to stay. I didn't have any money. So I—my ticket that was for about eight months open-ended ticket was about to expire.

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So I had to go back. But then I have an uncle. My mother's uncle lives in New York. So when I left the job, I went and stayed with them

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for a few days. And I was-I had a flight to catch from New York. And so he says to me, "Why don't you take New York bar exam Dinesh?" And I said, "Well, one, I, you know, I can't take the New

00:29:01.920 - 00:29:18.340

York bar exam because it needs one year of education here. And second, I don't have money." But California allows me to take the bar exam. California was the only state that allowed a foreign lawyer to take a

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bar exam without having gone to school here because my summer credits were only four or five credits. Remember that. And that was not enough. So he says, "Well, I can't give you money.

00:29:29.750 - 00:29:40.210

But you can stay here and prepare for California bar exam. And if you want to consider more education, then you know stay. I'll feed you but

00:29:40.210 - 00:29:56.350

I won't give you money." And then he had a medicine-manufacturing pharmaceutical company in New Jersey. And he said to me, "If you want, I can talk to my manager there. You can work there. And all they need is a supervision

00:29:57.120 - 00:30:11.440

of the technicians working on the capsule machine. So somebody has to sit there to watch them. And so you can study and make eight bucks an hour." So I took that offer. And so I was studying for two things.

00:30:11.600 - 00:30:25.740

One, I was studying for LSAT because I decided—I met Dean Alderman from U of H at a law school forum in New York. And I was inquiring about LLM, and he says, "Why do you want to go do LLM, Dinesh? It's just worthless. If you

00:30:25.740 - 00:30:40.920

want to be a litigator or mainstream attorney, then you should do JD." I said, "Why would I go three years, JD? I already have a law degree from Delhi." He says "Because you know, your law degree is not quite, you know, makes you prepared for

00:30:40.920 - 00:30:54.070

practicing here. It's not like medicine. You don't have jury system in India, here we have juries, which is totally different. And-but if you do well, after the first year, I'll treat your Indian

00:30:54.070 - 00:31:04.930

credits as one year worth of transfer credits." So he just-he just talking with me. He's a funny guy talking with me, nothing in writing. So that thing stayed in my

00:31:04.930 - 00:31:17.860

head. And I applied to a lot of law schools, including University of Houston. I had never heard of Houston Law before. I had never been to Houston before. But I met this funny guy who said, "If you came to University of

00:31:17.910 - 00:31:33.610

Houston, he may consider giving me one year off." And the tuition was low at that time for foreign students at University of Houston. So I applied, and at the same time, I, you know, took the LSAT, while working from New

00:31:33.610 - 00:31:48.060

York, and I applied to California bar exam. So think about it. I'm applying to go to first year of law school. But at the same time, I'm applying to take the California bar exam. So on Christmas Day, in '94, I go to California.

00:31:49.530 - 00:31:58.370

I remember that flight very well. And there was a guy who worked with this cousin's firm. He was a Pakistani guy.

00:31:59.310 - 00:32:10.270

And he became friends with me. So I was talking with him that I have to be in California, and I don't have a place to stay. So he says that he knows a few of his friends who are

00:32:10.600 - 00:32:24.620

students at Cal State Fullerton school, and they have an apartment. Maybe you can talk, they'll let me stay with them. So I said “Yeah, that would be great.” Now remember, India and Pakistan are working and the dynamic,

00:32:24.660 - 00:32:40.460

right? So he calls them and they say sure. So one of them showed up and picked me up at the airport, very nice of them. They were students—they were four of them living in a two bedroom apartment, paying-paying about $1100

00:32:40.460 - 00:32:58.670

on four of them. So they were happy to have me because now I split that $1100 with them into five. So we—five of us in two bedroom apartment. And he got me a job with an Indian guy who had a Day's Inn hotel in

00:32:58.670 - 00:33:13.390

front of Disneyland. That was Day's Inn, right in front of Disneyland. So every evening, from 5pm to 5am, I would work as a night clerk checking in, checking out.

00:33:14.170 - 00:33:27.420

And after about midnight, you know, it was not-it was not as busy so I could study a few hours. And then in the morning, I would come home and just sleep on the couch and then go

00:33:27.420 - 00:33:39.800

back. So I worked five days a week at that Day's Inn making $5.25—he used to give me that money in cash. So about 60- 60-some bucks a day, right?

00:33:41.030 - 00:33:53.920

For 12 hours of work. Then I took a bus back and forth, that was about 45 minutes each. So 14 hours, we’re going for that 65 bucks a day. You know, when you look back at these things it's amazing.

00:33:55.640 - 00:34:07.280

And—but I needed that and-and I also—then I took a course to prepare for California bar exam. So I had to leave that job for three months when I took that course.

00:34:08.370 - 00:34:24.440

And you know, what I did, I found a law school in Fullerton called Western State law school. It was not ABA approved, but the best thing they had was that they had a library that they allowed me to sit in and it opened from 7am till midnight.

00:34:25.430 - 00:34:41.390

And there was a Taco Bell and Del Taco in front of them. And I basically ate a bean burrito every day, twice a day for like 79 cents each and worked from that library and prepared and took classes which were happening close by.

00:34:42.560 - 00:34:57.810

And-and so when I took the bar exam in May of that '95, about the same time I heard—in August I heard from University of Houston, saying that they have a spot for me.

00:34:57.810 - 00:35:06.960

I was on waitlist until that time. They said they have a spot for me. This is August 11th or 12th. They said, "School starts on 16th or 17th.

00:35:07.480 - 00:35:21.150

Can you be here?" I said, "Yes!" So I went to New York, picked up my stuff from my uncle's place, and then took a flight to Houston and lived in a dorm here for a little bit.

00:35:21.380 - 00:35:38.540

And there we are. Now, the-the—you would wonder, how would I pay for my tuition right? I didn't have money. So that's—so when I came here, I told them, I'll apply for loans. And—so I applied for

00:35:38.540 - 00:35:53.290

student loans, obviously, I don't qualify as a foreign student. So there were some private loans that I could apply through Sallie Mae. And the interest rate was high, but they would not let me apply on my own

00:35:53.290 - 00:36:05.860

because I didn't have a credit history in this country at that time. So I call my uncle, my mother's uncle. And I was nervous, because, you know, I wasn't sure how he'd react.

00:36:06.650 - 00:36:22.290

But he said yes, he will consider being a guarantor on my application. Now you're talking about somebody taking a chance that if you don't pay your loans, then he'll be on hook to pay those loans. And so that's how my application got approved.

00:36:23.070 - 00:36:35.760

And I was able to attend school here. I see. And that was for your-your three year law degree, correct? Two years. So remember, after the first year.

00:36:36.350 - 00:36:47.100

So I didn't have anything in writing. They didn't know about it. And after the first year, I went to Dean Alderman. And I said, "Sir, I'm not sure if you remember me, but I had met you two years

00:36:47.100 - 00:36:58.940

ago. You have said this?" So he says, "Yes. I remember our conversation. What's your grade like?" I said, "I'm 3.16 or something like that after the first year. Is that good enough?"

00:36:59.390 - 00:37:08.130

He says, "Yeah, that's good enough. I'll honor it." So I was able to complete my JD in two years. And the first year law school, when I was sitting—

00:37:08.840 - 00:37:24.400

about Thanksgiving time—I found out that I passed the California bar exam. So I passed the—I'm sitting in first year law school class, and I just heard that I passed my California Bar Exam, which is the

00:37:24.480 - 00:37:38.980

hardest bar exam. So that's my checkered history right there. Uh huh. I know, you just kind of told like all of your immigration history, but just like, kind of take a step back.

00:37:39.710 - 00:37:53.570

From any time throughout your experience in America, did you face any like challenges? I know, it's very hard for like an Asian American to just leave everything behind and come here, alone in your case. And just, I know, you

00:37:54.030 - 00:38:08.780

hop from here to there just to barely hang on and survive, but like, what are some challenges? Like, did you face any adversity from other people? And so-so the main-main adversity was

00:38:08.970 - 00:38:24.360

mainly my status, right? So I came as a student, the first H1 was easy because this cousin's brother was able to do that for me, right? But after that, I went back to law school, so I had to

00:38:24.430 - 00:38:38.890

reapply for a student status. And then when I was only a student—so now this time, it's been three years I've not been back home. My mother is going crazy there, thought that I'm dying or something.

00:38:39.940 - 00:38:53.920

And so-so we did—there is—there's something in immigration law that allowed people in my situation to go to Mexico or to go to Canada, and apply for a new visa on your passport

00:38:54.520 - 00:39:12.990

so you can travel. So I go to my—so I decided that, you know, just in my stupid thinking, I thought, “You know, the brown folks in Mexico may be more, you know, more considerate of my situation.

00:39:12.990 - 00:39:29.630

I'm not sure about Canadians.” So I go to Mexico—this law school buddy of mine, Brian Baccus and I drove to El Paso to go to American consulate in Mexico and in Guada. And so we go there in

00:39:29.630 - 00:39:45.700

the morning, and they denied me. So the Mexican lady who interviewed me said you need to go back to India to apply for your visa. So now I'm stuck. She denied me that—the good thing about the law was that if you go

00:39:45.700 - 00:40:01.890

to Mexico, the reason I chose that is even if you're denied, you can come back one time based on your student status. But if you go out of Mexico and Canada, you cannot come back if they deny your visa. So I cannot afford to go

00:40:01.890 - 00:40:16.570

back to India, because now I got denied one time. If I go back, it's almost certain they're going to deny me again, and I cannot come back. So now, for first six-seven years, I couldn't go.

00:40:17.690 - 00:40:33.840

So after law school, I got two-three job offers, one from LexisNexis, one from another firm. And with LexisNexis, they had an offer letter for me, they interviewed me two-three times, they were going to send me to Cleveland, Ohio to work

00:40:34.340 - 00:40:43.390

as a staff attorney. And the salary was discussed. And from day one, I told them about my status. I said, "Look, you will have to do my H1."

00:40:44.100 - 00:40:58.170

And they said “Yeah that's fine.” And—but the moment we-we were about to sign this agreement, and I heard that the HR said they cannot do my H1. Same thing with this firm.

00:40:58.500 - 00:41:07.830

They would not hire me because of my status. My grades were fine. I was in top 25 or 30 percent of my class. So my grades were fine.

00:41:08.090 - 00:41:17.400

I wasn't in top 10. But I was fairly fine. And so this is the biggest deal that now I'm stuck.

00:41:17.620 - 00:41:29.220

How can I work? I cannot work without somebody. It's not in my hands. So guess what? I started working for a firm here, two-lawyer firm.

00:41:29.680 - 00:41:38.920

One of the guys used to teach at law school. And he was paying me nothing. Basically, there was no salary. But for one year, you can do Optional Practical Training,

00:41:38.920 - 00:41:55.420

all foreign students are allowed to work one year for anybody. So I chose to work with them. And-and so there was this Vietnamese lawyer Trang Tran, who used to office with them in a small little office.

00:41:56.310 - 00:42:11.250

And he became friends with me. And so after almost—I was about to finish one year—and I asked these guys, if they'll do my H1, and they said, "No." So my—I

00:42:11.810 - 00:42:27.520

can't stay here. My bar license was conditional. It said you cannot work as a lawyer unless you are on a proper immigration status. So-so I'm talking to Trang, and he just out of nowhere,

00:42:27.610 - 00:42:41.360

offers me. He says, "Look, I do employment law. I know you're pretty smart on the business side. And I have a lot of these Asian clients and connections that I can get some Korean and Chinese and Vietnamese business.

00:42:42.150 - 00:42:53.040

And why don't you work under my supervision and we split it three ways? I give one referral fee, and I keep 1/3. And I give you 1/3, whatever we make.

00:42:54.170 - 00:43:06.550

And I'll do your H1." This was a godsend opportunity for me. I said, "Trang, I love it. I love you for it." And so we worked like that for about two years. He did my H1.

00:43:07.520 - 00:43:20.360

And then he and I were having some issues about, you know, splitting and all that. So then, two years later, another friend of mine who was in law school and this time an Indian guy, Vijay Kale, who

00:43:20.360 - 00:43:31.890

had just left his job. And he wanted to come work with me. And he said, "Hey, can I come work with you?" And he did immigration law. I said "Yes, Vijay, but-but you know, my

00:43:31.890 - 00:43:50.320

status." So Vijay wants to work for me. But he says he'll do my H1 because he's an American citizen. So I'm technically helping him, but he's my boss. So-so then I changed my H1 to him.

00:43:52.100 - 00:44:05.130

So this is the problem that for the first 10 years or so, in America, I'm always hanging with that little thread. I don't know when that's gonna break and when I'm gonna fall. And it's basically the immigration status.

00:44:05.240 - 00:44:18.330

Nobody mistreated me. But-but these are the things that you know—think about from an immigrant that—Canada allows immigrants to come based on their qualifications, but America, it

00:44:18.330 - 00:44:34.760

doesn't matter how qualified I am. Somebody has to do my visa, my status. So now Vijay does my status. And-and then I asked him and so about six years are about to finish because you

00:44:34.760 - 00:44:44.830

cannot have H1 more than six years. So after the fourth year, I-I say, "Hey, we need to do my green card." And he says, "Dinesh I can apply for it."

00:44:45.350 - 00:44:58.780

It'll give me a few years, but you know, it's probably not going to be accepted because how do I prove that I'm something unique, individual or unique professional, and I do something that American lawyer cannot do?

00:44:59.390 - 00:45:14.160

Legal profession is something that every American, you know, there's so many Americans who do what I do. You know, there's nothing unique about my profession from the immigration status. He says, “But it'll buy you some time.” I said, “That's fine.”

00:45:15.690 - 00:45:30.360

So he does my application for my green card. Now, I don't know if it would have ever been approved. I probably would not have approved but it would have bought me five-six years of that while they're considering it.

00:45:30.360 - 00:45:46.250

And so this is that. So then I luckily—I met my wife, online. Online. She's from California, from same place where I was in when I was taking the bar exam, but I didn't meet her that time.

00:45:47.360 - 00:46:05.530

And so I met her online, I went to see her. You know, I proposed to her first meeting. We were engaged. And I can tell you that somewhere in my head, I'm sure I had this idea that "Oh, gosh, I'm glad she's a citizen." I

00:46:05.530 - 00:46:20.180

didn't-I didn't say that to her. I didn't ask her because I thought if I mentioned it, she'll probably just dump me. She'll think I'm marrying her because of her status right? But every immigrant has that in his head somewhere.

00:46:21.030 - 00:46:37.950

And so she didn't know, she didn't ask me my status. She didn't know. And we got married in about a—six, eight months after I first met her. And for two years, I didn't even apply through her because I was trying to see how my green card application through

00:46:37.950 - 00:46:51.990

Vijay would go. And then at some point of time, he says, you know, it's time for you to take that step, because it's probably not gonna go anywhere. So then I asked her, and I finally applied, like, two years after marriage.

00:46:52.780 - 00:47:05.710

By this time, she was pregnant. So I felt that I had at least some claim now that I'm the father of our kid. No go ahead.

00:47:05.710 - 00:47:20.610

But after a year of asking her that. —she said, “Yeah, of course.” Well, okay. Yeah. I was just gonna ask, did you meet her while you're still

00:47:20.610 - 00:47:29.390

studying for your bar exam, online? Oh, no, no, no. See, my bar exam was in '95? This is—you talking about...

00:47:30.690 - 00:47:43.580

I met her in 2003. I've already gone—I’ve already been on my own, from '93 to 2003. I survived 10 years before I met

00:47:43.710 - 00:47:54.470

her, and I did not apply for my green card through her until 2005. So that's the twelfth year. So I struggled through 12 years. So that's the adversity I faced.

00:47:54.500 - 00:48:09.930

And the other adversity, obviously, is that— look, I still have an accent. My English is very good. But I still struggle with the language, I still have an accent and when you're litigating—when you are in front of the jury, and I have to

00:48:09.930 - 00:48:23.970

pronounce words, I have to Google search how the pronunciation works of certain words. So those are the challenges as a—see, a doctor may not face that challenge, because the human body is the same.

00:48:24.440 - 00:48:37.240

But suddenly in law, where you're impressing the judge or jury, you're making an argument, and then these, you know, American lawyers speaking in their tone and their accent, and I'm challenged, culturally challenged.

00:48:37.790 - 00:48:49.590

I don't know what people think here, right? So those are the challenges. But the common sense, our values from Asia. I do think that our—what helped me is that my family

00:48:49.590 - 00:49:00.380

background of common sense and the Asian values. Because when you talk common sense, and they realize you're sincere and you're helping them. So I have been able to overcome those challenges.

00:49:01.620 - 00:49:10.110

But even now, sometimes the judges treat me as if, you know, you're rambling. You can't even say a sentence. I mean, a judge told me last week

00:49:10.190 - 00:49:22.790

that I was rambling. He thought my English, that, you know, but again, I mean, you know, it happens even to American lawyers. I'm sure he says that to anybody, but that's, you know, but-but those are the challenges.

00:49:23.460 - 00:49:35.190

That you face. Uh huh. Did you face any—I know you talked a little bit about inside the court, but like maybe outside of the court room—any like subtle—I know like discrimination

00:49:36.140 - 00:49:51.230

is very real. My parents personally faced some themselves. So did you ever feel like you kind of face some of that? You know, I didn't feel bad because despite all my challenges, I'm still physically—I look

00:49:51.930 - 00:50:04.180

better compared to some of our parents. And I can put up this stupid poker face and act, you know, I'm tall, I dress well, I drive a nice

00:50:04.180 - 00:50:19.710

car now. So-so I was able to not face some of the things that I can understand some of our parents face where they're not, you know, because I'm polished by now. That boarding school taught me to become polished,

00:50:20.310 - 00:50:33.380

right? I learned and—but our parents still, you know, their personalities are not as dynamic. As such, they look simple. They wear simple clothes.

00:50:33.500 - 00:50:46.150

I see some of the Indian parents. They look terrible. And I feel bad for them, because I feel that somebody is judging them right now. Right? So I didn't face that, because physically, I looked

00:50:46.150 - 00:50:56.710

good. And I acted like I belonged here, despite my accent, so I didn't face that sort of stuff. I'm sure a few times I've been called a n*gger in New York City, Central Park.

00:50:57.110 - 00:51:17.540

But that's just some bunch of, you know, like, stupid people saying that. I don't think they said that because I looked, you know, it is what it is. For sure. Just to kind of switch up gears, I—like your wife, you said you met her online, what was kind of

00:51:17.540 - 00:51:30.310

like the premise for that? Is she in a similar profession to you or similar interests? No, she's actually a physician. She's a family medicine doctor. And so I always wanted a

00:51:30.810 - 00:51:48.240

professional, somebody who would work, you know, have—because again, remember my childhood? Business, uncouth business background. So if you—my dream was to have a sophisticated, clean

00:51:48.480 - 00:52:01.320

life with a professional wife, professional. So I can, you know, because I remember those kids who came from those kinds of families. So I wanted somebody my equal.

00:52:02.700 - 00:52:15.890

And somebody who, you know, I always—another thing I had in my head, what if I'm struggling? You know, if she's working professional, she can take care of my kids. I won't have to worry about if I were to die, right?

00:52:15.890 - 00:52:27.280

So there's always you think about these things. I don't think I planned it that way. But if you asked me that, what would you like? I would have said, “Well, I'd like a professional.

00:52:28.190 - 00:52:41.890

Somebody who worked. I don't want a housewife. Because I saw my mother being a housewife all our life and getting no respect. She worked like a laborer all her life. And, you know, not that my dad abused her or anything,

00:52:42.260 - 00:52:54.500

but I don't think she got the same respect that a fellow spouse should get. You know, because she's doing the labor work for you. She's cooking for you. She's cleaning your clothes for you.”

00:52:54.820 - 00:53:07.980

Yeah. That makes sense. So you're trying to kind of break out of like that traditional gender role. Yeah and second income, look at always— you always think then how would we be comfortable? That what

00:53:07.980 - 00:53:21.280

if I'm struggling, then at least we use her income. So we—that's another—I think it's another Asian trait. We think through those things. So I wanted somebody my-my type and I did not want to marry a

00:53:21.280 - 00:53:35.330

lawyer, honestly. Because, you know, I-I'm also very—I want to have a different perspective in the house. And since I grew up with that science—my dad's science thing, medicine and engineering is what I was looking for

00:53:35.440 - 00:53:45.880

honestly. Because I wanted— since I was weak in science, I thought maybe my spouse would be good and maybe my kids will be good. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:53:46.070 - 00:53:55.940

So you needed like, different perspectives. Is she also-were her parents, immigrants to America? I see, so she's a generation up on you?

00:53:56.560 - 00:54:08.590

Yes. So she came—although her life is a little checkered as well—she came in the middle school. And then her parents came. And then they were struggling.

00:54:08.590 - 00:54:21.760

So they went back. Her dad is a doctor, but he came here in his 40s and he didn't want to do residency again. So he started, his brother was here, so he started doing a motorcycle business.

00:54:22.090 - 00:54:33.470

His shop was selling motorcycles, and he is a doctor. And that didn't survive. So he struggled. So they decided to go back. So they went back when she was just out of high school.

00:54:34.390 - 00:54:48.240

And-and so she went to medical school in India, and then two years later, they came back, the parents came back. But she stayed and can you imagine that she came in middle school, but she—they didn't have money to pay for

00:54:48.240 - 00:55:03.170

medical school. They didn't want a loan. So they asked her to do medical school from her hometown in India. Even though she could—and she was a good kid here. She was always a strong academic kid here.

00:55:04.200 - 00:55:17.310

But I find it amazing that she, you know, being a green card here, she went back to do MD in India and then she came back and did residency from here. So that was her unique challenge.

00:55:17.830 - 00:55:33.720

That's crazy. Is she actively practicing right now? Yes. So she is now work—a medical director at an urgent care. Yes. Doctor's Express. Many years with them.

00:55:33.720 - 00:55:46.870

I see. Can you kind of talk about how you guys ended up in Houston together? I know, she's from California so... So I met her. You know, April 19th of

00:55:47.240 - 00:55:56.810

2003. I proposed to her same day, first meeting. In May, I went and we got engaged. In October, we got married.

00:55:57.370 - 00:56:13.830

And I was—remember, I had passed the California bar exam. So her parents actually asked me if I should consider moving to California. But the problem I had was my status at that time.

00:56:14.070 - 00:56:32.550

And also because I was, in my own practice, sort of with Vijay. And-and I didn't want to take a chance and be dependent on my future in-laws. So—and my wife actually was okay with moving to

00:56:32.650 - 00:56:47.360

Houston because she wanted to get out, away from her parents because she had lived with them forever. And so she didn't mind that. So we decided to move, that we'll keep-keep living in Houston,

00:56:47.450 - 00:57:00.620

because I was already in Houston. So she came with a car full of—basically she shipped a car first and her personal items. That's it. And I left my-my apartment and we basically took—I took my

00:57:00.620 - 00:57:13.680

clothes. And we took an apartment by the-by the museum district on Main Street. And we started our life, new like that. Oh, okay. And you guys have been there since?

00:57:14.880 - 00:57:32.500

We've been here since then. Of course we moved out of that apartment within eight months. Okay, kind of shifting more into like the Houston career scene. What makes you so passionate about your

00:57:32.700 - 00:57:44.470

career in law? So my career in law is—remember that the politics part was always there. I always wanted to represent people.

00:57:46.210 - 00:58:03.370

So law is the micro-representation. I'm representing one or two clients at a time. And I find law, for me, as something that fits very naturally to me

00:58:04.620 - 00:58:18.090

because I like to resolve problems. And- and I see big picture. I'm a common sense guy. And I don't think I could have done anything other than law and

00:58:18.090 - 00:58:30.840

politics. So in a way, I've done both. I haven't really achieved anything in politics yet. But I have been involved with politics. That I have been involved—even when I was in law

00:58:30.840 - 00:58:47.270

school. I worked with the ACLU as a fellow intern for about six months. And I met a great lady called Sissy Farenthold, who had run for governor of state of

00:58:47.300 - 00:58:58.920

Texas. She was the first woman in Texas Legislature. So she liked me. She took me under the wing, she became my mentor. And I remember when the first Iraq war—the second Iraq war was

00:58:58.920 - 00:59:14.770

about to happen, I was protesting with her at the Hermann Park, saying no to war, and the joke was that Dinesh with your student status, you can be deported. But I have photos with her protesting and

00:59:15.660 - 00:59:30.810

then two years later, she asked me to come and serve on the Board of Rothko Chapel. Now Rothko Chapel is one of the interfaith institutions, one of the great institutions of Houston.

00:59:30.910 - 00:59:47.050

I don't know if you know or if you've been there, but it's one of the—it's got Mark Rothko's paintings, which are probably worth a billion dollars. They're all black, right? And I-I was honored to—I was the youngest person to be

00:59:47.050 - 01:00:03.400

asked to serve on the Board of Rothko Chapel. So I have practiced law but also have continued my involvement with— so at the same time when I was serving with Rothko Chapel, I remember

01:00:03.570 - 01:00:20.850

Diana at Rice asked me to come on the board of Rice's Center for Women and Gender Studies board. And because she saw that I was involved

01:00:20.920 - 01:00:36.670

with these activities, and so I served on that. I have been active in democratic politics in Houston. I was elected as the president of Harris County Democratic Lawyers Association. So my business

01:00:36.700 - 01:00:52.610

practice is passionate, but I'm also—it's both gold. So I'm passionate about representing and standing up for somebody who's been wronged. Let's put it this way. And the lucky thing that happened is you know,

01:00:52.610 - 01:01:06.130

the bad thing about my visa status was that I couldn't get in a big firm. But the blessing is that by working for smaller firms, small individuals, I get clients who are normal mom-and-pop small business clients.

01:01:06.860 - 01:01:19.580

So I love that. And that's why I feel that this is the profession for me. Yeah. Just to elaborate a little bit more. One of my other questions is actually going to ask you about the advisory board at Rice.

01:01:19.990 - 01:01:35.350

But, I think on your website, you say that—kind of referred to yourself as a champion of women's rights. And I just want to ask, why do you feel so strongly for women's rights? And how might like—how

01:01:35.350 - 01:01:48.840

might your background kind of contribute to that? So you know, I remember when I was in boarding school in India, there was a debate on some issue involving a woman's right issue.

01:01:49.310 - 01:02:02.470

. And-and I can't tell you that I knew exactly what feminist mean or feminism meant? But I remember, as an extempore— as almost like, spontaneously, somebody attacked my argument.

01:02:03.460 - 01:02:22.500

And when I hit a rebuttal, I said, "You know, I think I'm a feminist." And I didn't know what it meant, 100%. Only thing it meant was that I am going to stand up for women equality because I saw my mother not being treated

01:02:22.500 - 01:02:35.350

equal. That was my biggest deal that my mother was, you know— I always had this feeling that she didn't get her due respect. So maybe came from there.

01:02:35.670 - 01:02:51.480

And-and I always get along with women really well. And so when I went to Delhi law school, the Dean of the Delhi law school was a man called Professor Baxi. And I remember, you know, I'm very free-thinking guy, and very

01:02:51.480 - 01:03:03.460

progressive in some ways. At home, I'm very conservative, I live a very conservative life. But this guy, you know, what he used to do was, he used to use "her"

01:03:03.990 - 01:03:21.600

or "she" as a neutral gender. So if he'll talk in general terms, he won't say, "Hey, you know, this person, if he does this." He'll say "If she does this, or if she has to." So that's the first time I—and I thought, "Wow, that was pretty

01:03:21.670 - 01:03:34.030

cool." So I started using that. I started copying him. I stopped using his-him or him-he, I started using her, she—I thought it made me cool.

01:03:34.120 - 01:03:46.470

I don't know if I really believed in it, but I thought it was cool. And then I met Sissy Farenthold—that I was talking about—is probably the most impressive woman I've ever met. Her life is a life of discipline.

01:03:47.330 - 01:04:02.890

Very, you know? And I feel that we men don't have any-any superior rights to claim to—of course, don't say this to my wife, because she'll tell you that I'm-I'm really when it comes to her and me, I'm

01:04:03.000 - 01:04:11.410

pretty difficult. And I am. But I also think we equal right? I mean, so I can fight with her equally. So it's just like

01:04:11.470 - 01:04:23.150

my boyfriend. Why? Why do I have to be nicer? Of course, there are some courtesies which come, but generally, I feel that we are equal gender, we have to treat each other equal.

01:04:23.810 - 01:04:39.760

So that's why I've always been involved with that. And when Diana asked me for this, I thought, "Wow, that's great. I'd love to." You know? And-and-and I'll tell you one thing that I've always

01:04:40.250 - 01:04:57.280

thought, in American politics, religion plays a big role and in every discrimination basically against women or even LGBT community or for that matter, African Americans or— I see a some kind of connection to religious bigotry,

01:04:58.560 - 01:05:13.530

somewhere. Some-some authority in some religious book that they cite allows them to do discrimination. So, and I'm not very religious. I'm a Hindu. I like the Hindu

01:05:13.580 - 01:05:23.640

philosophy, and I love some of the stuff. But I'm not super religious. If somebody says, “Hey, if that's the only path,” no. That's not the only path, because, you know.

01:05:25.180 - 01:05:39.460

So that's where I am, where at Rice when I got this opportunity for the women thing. I also started a prize in my grandfather's name to have a paper critiquing religious impact on these women and gender issues.

01:05:40.310 - 01:05:50.090

So I feel that we need to be equal. So I—we can you know— whether you treat each other equally, that means that it gives me a right to be equal, I can talk to them on a equal

01:05:50.090 - 01:06:09.480

footing. Yeah. That's very admirable. I know, apart from like, women's rights, are there any other specific movements that you're personally like very involved in or believe in? Yes. So I have been involved with Americans United for Separation of Church and State,

01:06:10.340 - 01:06:19.930

for exact same reason that I was just telling you. I feel that-that combining religion with politics is like drink—it's

01:06:20.470 - 01:06:36.160

like driving drunk and plus having drugs together. So-so if we keep religion out of politics, to me, most of the discrimination and most of the bad politics in this country and discrimination against everybody

01:06:36.760 - 01:06:49.880

is somehow connected to some religious doctrine somewhere. Slavery was justified because of religion. You know, the discrimination against women and LGBTQ. They'll tell you it's all sinful.

01:06:50.390 - 01:06:58.310

That Lord said it's sinful. So I am very passionate about keeping religion out of politics. That's my biggest deal.

01:06:58.950 - 01:07:11.810

Yeah, that makes sense. How do you feel about like the political scene in Houston in general, and I know Houston is a big city so there's always something going on. And I just want to know how you feel about that.

01:07:12.890 - 01:07:26.220

What do you mean? The political scene you said? Mhm. Just in general, like the climate. So the political climate, right? So generally, I think Houston is a pretty, you know,

01:07:26.220 - 01:07:38.630

friendly city. Most of the people I would think in the urban areas are fairly, you know, common sense folks. But we do have-we

01:07:38.630 - 01:07:55.200

do have issues in politics, that, you know, both sides—one side is obviously, you know, a lot of religious issues. And the other side problem is a lot of this identity-based politics.

01:07:55.650 - 01:08:10.360

So, as a Democrat, I feel that in the Democratic Party, sometimes the, you know, the identity takes—is more superior to merit or to substance. And as a proud—

01:08:10.990 - 01:08:22.030

you know, somebody who's worked hard, I don't think that we should divide each other. The melting pot was the term that I used to hear when I first came to America. I think I don't hear that anymore.

01:08:22.740 - 01:08:38.130

That melting pot concept is going down. So I feel that, you know, we are becoming so diverse, that it's critical now to us to always also strive towards that melting pot , because otherwise

01:08:38.200 - 01:08:51.660

we'll have our divisions and that's the problem I see in Houston. And our country's politics as well, besides religious impact on it. For sure. As a-as a lawyer in this kind of climate, how do you

01:08:51.660 - 01:09:04.920

personally see yourself like—what role do you hold and what identity have you come to identify yourself with? To stand for what's right. And that's what I'm-I'm still striving and I have not given up on my political

01:09:04.920 - 01:09:18.390

ambitions either. And I feel that we—so for example, you know, I want to stand for everybody who's been discriminated. Like, you know, whether it's Muslims sometimes,

01:09:18.900 - 01:09:33.460

whether it's Asian, recent Asian attacks, whether it's African American, Black Lives, whatever. I just think that without insulting the majority or the other side, we need to—I want to continue working towards common sense

01:09:34.160 - 01:09:44.540

with-with saying, “Look, we're all in this together.” Four generations later, our kids are going to look similar. They're not going to look like what we look. Six generations later.

01:09:44.810 - 01:10:01.150

So we need—we better make our country a true melting pot of some time. Definitely. Do you have any advice for people who are interested in bridging cultures and like nations? So, you know, in good faith.

01:10:01.370 - 01:10:13.210

Keep acting in good faith, be human to each other. And, you know, that's what I say. I said don't judge each other based on our, you know, color or looks or whatever.

01:10:13.860 - 01:10:24.310

I mean, we-we are individuals first, right? We treat each other as a human being and-and see what, you know—what fits us and

01:10:24.310 - 01:10:41.170

stop making general assumptions and general things. Kind of going along this advice line, do you have any advice for any students struggling to decide on what they want in the future, and particularly those that might be interested in heading down this

01:10:41.170 - 01:10:55.350

path of law? So the law is a great path. It's also very stressful. But if you want to make changes, that—I still think that law

01:10:55.350 - 01:11:06.960

gives you that opportunity. It opens up a lot of doors. Because our society is based on rules and-and procedure. So if you know that, you certainly in a good situation.

01:11:08.340 - 01:11:24.390

What I say to, you know—especially to students, you know, not somebody like you, because you already know what I'm going to say. But I see these Hispanic kids or black kids or people in lower middle class families.

01:11:25.000 - 01:11:40.810

And I keep telling them that, look, if you want to get out of this rut of labor, middle class struggles, I can only tell you what my father said: the only way to get out of it is by education.

01:11:41.280 - 01:11:53.270

If you have—take student loans, take it. Get yourself a professional degree. That's the only way because if you work as a labor, as a technician, you're always dependent on somebody else.

01:11:53.720 - 01:12:06.060

You're always going to struggle, you're not gonna make a very good living. If you-if you're ambitious, the only way to get out of it is education. That's what I say. Yeah.

01:12:08.730 - 01:12:20.640

This is a little off to the side but do you feel like there's a glass ceiling now that you know—you're very polished and accomplished in Houston and in America in general? Do you feel like there's a glass ceiling for Asian

01:12:20.860 - 01:12:36.600

American lawyers? So, I still think-I still think that we have—we still have tougher odds. So when I'm standing in a court, let's say

01:12:36.660 - 01:12:50.580

with a American lawyer, who's from here. I still think I have higher, tougher odds. And I think every Asian lawyer would feel that way. Because-because we are still very few in numbers.

01:12:52.160 - 01:13:02.230

And we still don't do —a lot of us don't do litigation. We are, you know—compared to medicine, for example. Asian Americans are doing very

01:13:02.230 - 01:13:12.340

well in medicine and engineering and IT. But in law-in law, we are still a very small minority. And I think we still have very tough odds.

01:13:13.720 - 01:13:29.330

And-and some of, you know—we need to keep working, we need to keep getting new-new generation of our kids coming in and say that we can do it. And we can do pretty well because we also have common sense. We have our values, which really fit the legal profession.

01:13:29.760 - 01:13:42.570

Because our values—I think our values really help. Yeah, definitely. I did background research before this, but I noticed that you campaigned for Kustice, First

01:13:42.570 - 01:13:57.290

Court of Appeals in 2020. Would you be willing to speak about your experience and any lessons you may have learned? Yeah, so it was a great experience. The problem with my campaign was that

01:13:58.510 - 01:14:10.190

I ran a very mom-and-pop show because I didn't raise much money. I didn't ask anybody directly for money. I got some money raised by my friends

01:14:10.190 - 01:14:23.370

without my asking. Some-some—most of the friends were the families from my kid's school and things like that. But I don't think it would have mattered

01:14:25.600 - 01:14:43.950

even if I raised more money, and I realized that pretty early on. The thing with Democrat—I ran as a Democrat. And so in the primary, I had an opponent, a Hispanic female. And there were 36

01:14:43.950 - 01:14:57.550

judicial races in Harris County, for all the judges and for all the—even the statewide races. And-and if I tell you that in 36 primaries, not

01:14:58.720 - 01:15:15.970

a single man won. Every primary was won by a woman. Some of the sitting judges, male sitting judges, lost in the primary to new

01:15:16.370 - 01:15:30.500

women candidates. So the problem with our election system that I realized is that people don't know who they're voting for. They cannot research so many races.

01:15:32.010 - 01:15:46.660

They worry about senators and Congress people and President, but nobody cares about judicial races, even though as a judge, I impact your life more directly than Mr. President does. Right?

01:15:46.660 - 01:15:59.200

Then Mr. Senator does. But people do not know. So what they do is they go and just pick. And if you have my name and a female name, guess who's gonna—whom you're gonna pick?

01:16:00.160 - 01:16:14.850

I would pick a female's name! Myself. So I still got—received 100,888 votes in 10 counties. And I did better than a lot of other men.

01:16:14.850 - 01:16:30.420

And I'm thinking—sometimes I wonder, “Why did I get better than some of these other men?” And I'm thinking maybe because some people thought my name Dinesh may have sounded to them Denise, like a woman's name. And maybe

01:16:30.420 - 01:16:48.020

I got some extra votes because of that. So the problem—the experiences that in Democratic primary and the election in Harris County, it's very difficult to really have an informed vote because people

01:16:48.360 - 01:16:55.610

don't know when they're voting for. So it was a great experience though because I met a lot of people. I went and I was invited to a

01:16:55.610 - 01:17:05.780

lot of groups to talk. And they heard me and it was great. It was a great experience. I see. Is there any way you would want to change the system if you could?

01:17:07.450 - 01:17:20.910

Yes, I would. I've been advocating, changing at least the judicial system of electing judges, because we elect judges with no with—basically, a lot of our judges don't have much experience of trial.

01:17:21.480 - 01:17:33.810

Some of them didn't even practice as a lawyer much when they became judges. And—so I’d like to change the qualifications if I can, and maybe even not have election.

01:17:34.610 - 01:17:46.470

But you know—because I don't know how you can have a million people elect judges when they have no clue who these judges are. Yeah. That makes sense.

01:17:47.360 - 01:18:00.810

Kind of segwaying into this, just do you have any other stories, experiences or memories about, you know, yourself that you would want to share? Maybe they can show how you embrace

01:18:00.810 - 01:18:21.310

diversity or reconciled-reconciled, sorry, with your identity? Yeah. Yes. So my-my-my identity is, if you ask me who I am, of course, I'll say I'm from India and Asian and all that. But-but deep down in my heart, I feel I'm nothing but an

01:18:21.310 - 01:18:35.710

individual. I'm just a human being in one body. And I look at everybody else that way. When I look at you, I don't look at you anything other than just a fellow human being. And-and I—that's what I teach my kids to have an open

01:18:35.710 - 01:18:52.090

mind, a free-thinking mind. And don't judge people based on any looks or anything. And, you know, so-so my identity is—I'm very individual. So that's something I guess that's what in India, we used to say that America is a very

01:18:52.160 - 01:19:03.810

individualistic society. And I feel that I am the epitome or the true example of that individual. And I feel I'm nothing but one human being.

01:19:04.050 - 01:19:16.860

That's it. 6 billion people. And I don't feel that I'm from India or here because it's same mother Earth, it's one Earth. It doesn't matter if I'm on—I'm standing on this corner or that corner of Asia or America right?

01:19:18.370 - 01:19:29.490

We have created these divisions. And-and I feel that there's should not—you know, that we should treat each other just as fellow human beings. We're here on a lease, a few-few years.

01:19:29.910 - 01:19:39.950

It's all gonna end. This body's not going to stay with me. So I'm basically that little speck of soul or whatever that is. And I don't know what I'll be after

01:19:39.950 - 01:19:52.730

that, right? So that's my biggest identity, that I don't want to put myself in a box. I don't see myself— so I don't hang out only with Indians or anything and I do not.

01:19:52.850 - 01:20:06.940

I—when I was in law school, I hardly attended any Indian bars or Asian bars. Of course I go sometimes, but I'm not as passionate about marginalizing myself in a box.

01:20:07.180 - 01:20:23.640

You know, everybody together kind of forgot. Yeah, I can definitely agree with that perspective. And then just sort of talking more about recent events, like COVID has really impacted a lot of industries and professions.

01:20:23.940 - 01:20:36.060

How has it impacted you specifically? COVID has not impacted me much or my family, because I actually worked every day. I went to office every

01:20:36.060 - 01:20:47.470

day throughout COVID. Because my office building in downtown was closed for about six months. And there was nobody there. So I was there sitting alone.

01:20:48.360 - 01:21:00.830

And I worked every day, I went every day. Of course, I took precautions. My business has not suffered. Luckily, last year, I had work that was continuing and that kept me

01:21:00.910 - 01:21:16.510

busy last year. So my year has been fairly normal. That was—so I have and my—same way with my wife. She worked from home, but she works as a director, so she doesn't do much clinical hours. So she does

01:21:16.590 - 01:21:27.380

more supervision. So our family—of course, the impact—the biggest impact was the kids, their school was shut down. And it was very difficult to have them home

01:21:29.060 - 01:21:42.030

and avoid having so much screen time. But other than that, I don't think that COVID impacted me, but I've lost some friends. I had several friends and clients who

01:21:42.030 - 01:21:53.980

had COVID. In fact, I lost two-three friends who actually died because of COVID. But not in my immediate family. Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that.

01:21:55.920 - 01:22:08.130

Kind of more on a happier note, you mentioned your kids, so I just thought of it. But what are your hopes and expectations for your children, especially after all the experiences that you've gone through in your younger days?

01:22:10.320 - 01:22:24.050

You know, both my kids are so bright that I keep thinking—they both are St. John's. They're both high honor kids so far. And my

01:22:24.740 - 01:22:44.390

son sings, which was one of my biggest regrets in life that I didn't have that skill or talent. So my son sings, and my-my only hope—sometimes I worry about them—is that I hope so far they've done very

01:22:44.450 - 01:22:59.960

well. And as a parent, the only fear is that I hope they don't lose track at some later stage. That-that—they of course, I want them to be in the best college just like every other Asian parent. I

01:23:00.920 - 01:23:17.180

try to get them to the boarding school at Andover and Exeter this year. He got on waitlists, he didn't get in so that was a disappointment. But you know, as an Asian parent, I want him to be in the best college, the best school possible, and do the best he can.

01:23:18.490 - 01:23:32.890

That's all, you know? So it made me, you know, I-I can't even— when I see them getting scores in 90s, where I was barely passing, that itself is a big deal, right?

01:23:35.150 - 01:23:47.130

Going back to like your values right? Working hard, getting an education. I just want to ask one last question like just about Houston and its community.

01:23:47.330 - 01:23:59.390

How do you kind of view the community here at Houston? And do you see yourself living in Houston for a very long time? Yes, yes. I think I found home.

01:23:59.390 - 01:24:17.130

I felt home the moment I, you know, got down off that plane in '95 when I came to law school. This city is to me, is perfect for me because it feels—it's a big city, but it feels like it

01:24:17.210 - 01:24:32.940

has that small city element to it. Where unlike New York, I don't see a lot of kit kit kit kit . So—and I love the hot weather, believe it or not, because I came from India, from my hometown was almost

01:24:32.940 - 01:24:43.200

similar weather. And in fact actually, if you look on the map, the globe, Delhi and my hometown and Houston happened to be on the same lines.

01:24:43.360 - 01:24:57.330

So seven oceans apart, I'm basically in the same humid condition. Of course, Delhi didn't have a sea so my—you know there was no humidity, but it's gets—it's basically eight months of summer

01:24:58.790 - 01:25:08.400

right? So I love the weather. I love the people. The thing about Houston is the diversity. I love it that we can have whatever we want.

01:25:09.730 - 01:25:24.830

There's so much Indian population, there's so much, you know—I don't miss anything. In fact, there's nothing here that we are deprived and it's very friendly, despite, you know, I mean, I'm sure there are issues here and there.

01:25:26.030 - 01:25:39.020

And I see myself living here unless my kids want to go to a different town, then I may have to move to be close to them. That's different. This thing. But if all stays normal, then I see myself dying in this town.

01:25:41.590 - 01:26:02.170

That's great. Yeah. Do you have anything else you want to add anything you might want to slip in before we conclude the interview? You know, I'm very honored when Anne asked me to

01:26:02.360 - 01:26:14.660

be part of this. And-and I want to say this, that I'm glad that she—at least among the Asian community, this is a melting pot for all of us. Although—think about it.

01:26:14.740 - 01:26:27.000

We-we very different. Asia is very different. So what-what I’d like to say is that our community can really make a difference in this country and in the city

01:26:27.440 - 01:26:44.340

by imbibing our values of education—of higher education and family values. I think if-if America can adopt the mainstream—if America can adopt some of our values, so family being together and

01:26:44.340 - 01:27:00.030

education. And then we obviously, you know, accept their dynamism and their hard work and this country, it still has potential of being great and we have a—we really have a role in this.

01:27:01.010 - 01:27:12.480

They need to realize that we are a smart community. We can—we really have a role in making this country and this place great again. Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for that.

01:27:13.540 - 01:27:22.280

And thank you so much for sharing with me today. I really appreciated that. I'll stop the recording here because I think that concludes the interview.