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Today is November 11, 2020, my name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Here we have Ms.— Dr. Deborah Lin with us today on her second part of the interview with HAAA.

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Thank you so much, Dr. Lin. Thank you, Ann. Yeah, to start— to continue actually, could you share with us how you identify yourself in terms of ethnicity?

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Um... Asian American. Great. Thank you. And could you share with us some stories about your Chinese name and what it means? Okay. My Chinese name

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is He Ruiyan: “何”, 人可“何”; “瑞”, 瑞士的“瑞”; “燕”, 燕子的 “燕”. And my family name “He”, I think it means “why”. So I guess my name is “Dr.

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Why”. And Ruiyan means “lucky bird”; or “lucky swallow”, to be more exact. And that's my nickname. “Lucky bird”. Yeah, that's a really sweet name.

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Thank you. And I just wonder, could you share with us, the neighborhood you grew up in, and some memories about the neighborhood? I grew up in Taipei, Taiwan until I was 17. Then I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, with my family.

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I think I have a very simple childhood, very, idyllic, I guess, in a way. I grew up exactly two blocks away from the presidential office in Taipei. My dad worked

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as a judge in those years, and so we live in a, I guess, what do you call the housing complex for all the judges. So I guess, you know, it somehow feels a bit like,

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growing up in the shadow of State Department, I guess. Because all of my neighbors are, you know, are similar. And there are a

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lot of young kids of my age. And we are still good friends, you know, until this day, you know, half a century later. Wow, that's interesting. And what were some of, if you remember some of the games that you play during

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your childhood with your friends? I will say, I don't think I play games other than I practice a lot of piano. And, and my downstairs neighbors

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who are, you know, also my best friend until this day. And she also is a very good pianist. So the game will be like, you know how to play faster, and louder, and play more advanced. So she will, you know, play something

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real beautiful from the first floor, of course, I live on the third floor of the apartment. And I'll be like, "Oh my god, she's playing what?" And then I'll be going back there and practice, you know, in– on the table without making

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any noise. Of course, you know, what, I feel a bit more comfortable. I'll go there and bang the heck out of my piano and see, "Listen, I can do it too." And to... it gets so bad, to a point that one time, she was so much

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more events than me, I decided I'll play a record very loud, with my dad, state-of-the-art stereo system, which was quite rare in those days; and hoping that she will probably thought that was me playing.

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And she did. So that was fun. So you are very competitive too, since your childhood? Uh, childish and competitive at the same time. I also remember of course, you know, there's, you know,

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there were about, I'll say— I'm not joking— over 20 kids of the same age, in that little, little apartment complex. And we have, we share the same front entrance, and the same back entrance is there too.

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And then there is a little courtyard and a little alley— the front alley and the back alley; and then they're just a bunch of kids, you can imagine. It's like a cruise ship on the land.

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And we were there together for years and years and years, of course. And every October, there will be a parade of some sort. I guess to celebrate a Double Ten1, and there will be soldiers and tanks and all kinds of weird stuff.

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And that would be a highlight. And there will always be two soldiers, you know, with a real gun— whether it's loaded or not, was loaded or not, I have no idea; but there will be two soldiers, you know, standing in front of the door and

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guarding the entrance is, it was very impressive. And of course, all the kids, you know— none of the adults bothered, I think, or maybe they were busy, we have no 1October 10th, or “Double Ten Day” is the Taiwanese national holiday.

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idea. But all the kids will be just like jammed into the steps of the front door guard, flanked by two soldiers and watch the parade from, you know, like the VIP seats, of course, but none of us were older than 12 I guess.

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So. So that was my, my childhood memory. And of course, there was another one was really weird, was that, was the day I think Chiang Kai-shek died. And we were told to, to go to the front door, and everybody would sit there

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and cry. But none of us could cry, because we had no idea who Chiang Kai-shek was. Just remember, we're little and we're standing there, you know flanked by the two soldiers again, and some person who say, "Cry! Cry!" and another goes, "Why?

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Why?" So, that was pretty funny, too, in a way. Wow. Yeah, that's really interesting that, like, in current times, it would be really difficult, actually, and imagine... Imagine right?

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I will say that was that was probably like, you know, you're living in Pennsylvania Avenue, and then you're just sort of like witnessing the history from the front seat; and being part of the Black Lives Matter, I guess, you know, without knowing why you were there.

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Because, again, you know, we're– we're, you know, 10 years or younger, not knowing anything, and– and the still witness; and to this day, now I grew up, I was like, "Oh, that was that." And, you know, it gives

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me a very unique experience growing up in Taiwan. At the same time, it may not be the accurate one. But what I can say was that, despite all that, none of my neighbors

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were political, and half of the kids in that little apartment complex, we're all in the United States right now. Of course, so we all you know, we keep in touch with each other, and we all are doing well in our chosen field.

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But I think in many ways, we also, you know, are deeply connected because of a collective childhood experience. Thank you. Can you share with us some of the family values, your family instilled with you during your

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upbringing? I remember you said... Family values? Oh my gosh, of this... I guess, the number one thing that pops in my mind is working hard.

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My entire family worked hard. And I think that my father grew up in a very poor family. And my grandpa was a poet. So how can you make money as a poet

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in post-war Taiwan? I have no idea. I could just tell you, that's my family background. And my father had to work his way up ever since he was a teenager, support

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himself, working. But he was very smart. And then he was, I guess, one of those like smart kids who got a full scholarship to a high school.

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And so he left home early. Since high school, since he was 15, he moved to Taipei, because we're from Southern Taiwan. And he worked his way up through university and because of his

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good grade, he was able to rise, you know, steadily and became the Chief Justice, Chief Justice in the second quarter of Taipei. So working hard was the you know, that was all he knew– he knew.

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Um, my mother came from a landlord family. But of course, she lost everything. After Chiang Kai-shek government moved to Taiwan. They had a policy basically that if you don't farm your

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own land, your land will go back to the government and give and so I think it's called “375 Tax Reform…” of some sort. Anyways, to make a long story short, my, my grandpa from my mom's side, died

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when my mother was six. And so she was the youngest of six or seven children. And so my mother, my grandmother couldn't, you know, farm; she had to raise kids. So she, she leaves all the land to tenant

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farmers. So overnight, they lost everything. So they became, they became dirt poor, from wealthy land owners. So, so you can just imagine, you know, working hard, was the only

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way that for those, you know, and my parents got married very young, they met each other through my father's college roommate, my uncle, which is my mother's older brother. So you can imagine, just like all the Taiwanese

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at the time, working hard. And– and rely on yourself is, was probably the only way to survive. With the with the turmoil, and– and the society change after World War II.

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The second thing that's really unique to my family, and my generation, I think, at least, is I have two younger brothers. And we all came to the United States when we were teenagers. We came

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here because because high because we were, at least our parents felt like American is a land of freedom, and democracy. So we took that very, very seriously.

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And, of course, to this day, even though we cancel each other's vote— I definitely vote for blue, and my brothers definitely voted for red. So it kind of, we always joked, we would say, "We just cancel each

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other's votes. Jimmy and I were Democrat, and my two brothers are Republican." I mean, like two against two, like— what's the point? But at the same time, we also felt like, you know, just

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even if we cancel each other's vote, we're just like, typical American family in this– in this– in this regard, we love each other. And yet, we respect each other's point of view.

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But as an Asian American, we knew how important it is to have a system that works, and how important to participate. So I think that these two are probably, I guess,

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you know, are the two most obvious, obvious value in my family. Yeah, that's really encouraging to hear that your family has valued that pursuit freedom and that voice in

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terms of being a human being. That's really encouraging. I guess, next, I'm wondering, what are some of the mentors that, or some of the inspiring figures in your upbringing that

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shaped you as who you are today? Okay, this is actually... this is interesting. Um, well, I don't know as a– as a mentor, or as you know, like...

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Okay, back up, like, before I came to United States, my life was simple. I basically go go to school 7:30 in the morning, and I study until I go to bed.

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And my, my father is a very open minded person. And he basically is the Mr.– “Mr. Mom”— he, he was the only parent.

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He was only parent, I guess I would say, of my entire high school, which is right across the street from the– the presidential office in Taipei. It is the first girls’ high school, that– that there's a… it’s called “Mother-Sister Committee”,

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basically, as a parent, a PTA of the Taiwanese style. I guess. And you know, of course, you know, there were only mothers and sisters. Imagine. My, my dad is, is the only one there that was not mother or sister.

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That just, but– but then my dad said, "Well, my office is literally right across the street." So he will come. He will, he will come and bringing like lollipops or ice creams for everybody.

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We, all my classmates loved him. And he was the– the the, the president of the PTA club, because he was the only boy, or only men in that, in this case. And so, so that's my upbringing.

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My father was very, very important in my life. But, um, my father is also a very good writer. So, to this day, I think I, I think I'm more more or less like my dad.

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I'm very shy. And I don't like to stand in the front, front stage. But I'm a thinker. I like to, I like to plan, and I like to work hard.

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I don't have to take all the credits. So I think, I think that's probably that's probably it. Um, back up... But there's another person in my childhood in Taiwan who

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was important that, that was my father's law school professor. I call him “Grandpa Chang”. Grandpa Chang. And he, he was a very famous

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law professor. He taught at Xiamen University, before he came to Taiwan, with the Chiang Kai-shek government. He was again, uh, he was a professor at Taiwan University at the time, and also a

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congressman from Anhui province in the government at the time. And he had, he had two daughters, and one son, and they were all in America at that time.

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And of course, he had no family members. His wife died, well, his wife died when I was maybe four or five. And, and so he had no grandchildren to lecture.

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And, and, you know, being a lawmaker in Chiang Kai-shek's government at the time. And that pretty much meant that he had no voice. Like, you just go there, as, you know, I guess, stand...

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whatever... And, and for a while, and he was graduate, he was a Northwestern graduate, really modern westernized person, a lawmaker, of course, you can imagine this. So he was frustrated, he was bored to death, and he had nobody to

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lecture. And of course, he always asked my father to visit him every weekend. And a person with an infamous patience, like my father, got frustrated after a

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couple years. Of course, so by the time I was maybe, I would say about 10, or 12, I became the substitute. So I would spend every weekend with 張爺爺, Grandpa Chang, and just listen to you know, his oral history.

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And from the, the, you know, the, the rolling 20s the importance of reading Time Magazine, and how to read the columns of New York Times and, and so forth; and went on and, and, and the important literatures of Chinese literatures and,

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and how to appreciate art. So he had a incredible art collections at his house, and including Qi Baishi's original painting, and he didn't buy them.

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He was, you know, again, a famous lawmaker, and, and professors of his own right. And he had a older brother, who was a very famous, a good physician.

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So he had a lot of patients including Qi Baishi, so, so all those paintings were given to him as a present. So that's why I got my, I guess, my museum tour in his house as well.

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And so, so I think that between those two that you know, pretty much shaped my– my going up in Taipei. Wow, that's so interesting to hear.

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And you also have a like, kind of creative writing, like family gene in– in... I think so. I think my dad is an extremely… my dad's a very good writer.

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I remember first came to America, my parents, or at least my mother's biggest fear was, I was going to you know, hang out with all American and, and the find an American boyfriend and that was it, you know?

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So that was a big, big, big conflict between me and my mother. I was thinking if you if you want me to only hang out with Asian boys, and I could

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have just stayed in Taipei. Right? I mean, what's the point of coming to America? And you know, and America is a very free society.

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And all the boys I talked to are not my boyfriends. Get it? I mean, it's like, you talk to boys and you talk to girls. Granted, I went to all girls high school, and in Taiwan, in Taiwan, all girls and boys are

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segregated after elementary school. But this is America, you can't, I mean, I can't just hang out with girls, all the girls have boyfriends or boys. I mean, it's a group of boys and girls, I can't...

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What? You want me to go to a Catholic school? So. So that was a big conflict between me and my mother. And long story short, my dad said nothing for four

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years. And there was one boy who was really, really nice to me. And he was like, basically, you know, pursuing me for years. And my father would just write one letter. It's, it's not even one page, basically just pointing out the

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pros and cons of marrying to a white men, or like, "Oh my god, this is it. My dad wrote me. That's it, that was the end of the whole relationship." It was a disaster. So, so I realized the power of writing at that moment.

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Yeah, it's so interesting, that kind of intergenerational value towards dating and relationships, right? Oh, absolutely. I think that, at that, you know, I have to remember that was over 30 years ago, and my

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parents were immigrants, and we were immigrants. And, and that was their fear of losing their roots. It's a very, it's a very, it's a conflict. It's, it's a, it's like, you kind of afraid to

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lose your identity, and yet, you want to be somewhere else. So it's a big conflict and that conflict plays, play in, you know, in their heart, in their decisions over and over again.

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And finally, when, by the time that all the kids graduate from college, my parents moved back to Taiwan, of course, and then... and you have to understand that when they came here, they were in their 40s and 50s. And so it was like America was never their country.

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And they love America, they admire America; but it's from a distance. Like never, they could never feel like a part of it. And my brothers and I were teenagers.

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And we we exposed to this, you know, very open society at a very early age. And so we, we, we only saw the good part of it. The difficulties this, the nuance,

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the challenge that this this country face, we didn't get it until maybe I will say 20, 30 years later, when we became adults, when we became parents ourselves. And we realize

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that, you know, for, for everything, there's price to pay. Freedom is not free. You have to earn it. So that, that

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make us more of American or Asian American. So when people ask, like, whenever I go back to Taiwan, this is the funny part. When I was younger, I'll go back to Taiwan, they say, "Oh, you come home, oh, you came home,

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you came home." My grandparents, "Oh, you came home, we miss you so much." And then after 10 years, and especially they found out I had a white boyfriend that was a disaster, and they started to sarcastically call me, "Oh,

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the American girl is back!” You know, like, “traitor, traitor!" To this point, and after a while, they– they– they say "Oh, you came back," you know, after I quote unquote, “dumped” my American boyfriend. They say this, "Oh,

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we so love you! You came back." And I was like, "I'm not sure if I came back.” Right. I’m just visiting you guys. I miss you. But I just don't feel like my home is there anymore. After 30 years.

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Yeah that's so interesting in terms of how like, the parents and grandparents can be very open minded and progressive in their own country, like politics, and like– like in terms of racial segre- like

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differences a little bit conservative still. Well, it's in every, it's in their, every culture. When, when– to answer your earlier questions when I came to America, who are very important for me.

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I– I was very young 17. And, but then again, wasn't that young. I wasn't sure if I could get into a good college. I was you know, really worried but my parents being, you

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know, Chinese, they would just say, “Well, but it's more important for the boys to get a very good education; girls— yeah, it's important for you to get a good job; but– but you manage.” So, so they stay here for my younger

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brothers. And whether I was going to get to a good college or not, they just couldn't even contemplate, you know, like, "She'll make it. She'll make it." So I was really lonely.

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And I was kind of lost. But I had a good piano teacher who's a neighbor's neighbor, and– or neighbor's friend, to be precise— and so she started to teach me piano.

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And, and she, when she realized that, you know, we couldn't really pay for her. She basically said, "Well, I'm going to teach you for free." And after a while, she gave me her dog's puppy. And after that, she started to take me to her church; and it gradually, gradually, she

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kind of adopted me. She had no kids her own and, and you can imagine after like a two or— and then she basically just say, “but you're one of us.” And, and, you know, she's Southerner, of course, you know, to the core— blue eyes,

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blonde hair. And she has a little, little Chinese daughter. And so every Sunday I will, you know, instead of going hang out with Chang Yeye— Grandpa Chang, I ended up hanging out with my American mom.

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And then and I remember how many times I cried, "Oh my mother won’t let me go out see my friends," I know, like, "I, you know, I can't date anybody. There is no Chinese boys around." And my, my piano teacher, which she

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was like, "Don't worry. You know, like, you're so pretty. Don't worry." You know, like, it was kind of important for a 17, 18 year old to have that positive

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reinforcement, you know, your, your confidence, you know, your identity. So, yeah, I think that's kind of important for me as well. Yeah, that's really interesting. And you mentioned your mom is a social worker, right?

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Oh no. My mom was a elementary school teacher. And then when she quit her job to bring the kids to the United States, for— I think she stayed with us for four, five years. And then she moved back to Taipei, Taiwan

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with my, my dad. And then she became a social worker in Taiwan University Hospital. I see. And thank you. Yeah, and I guess moving forward about your immigration

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like life in how like when you first came to Georgia... Yeah, like what was what was it like besides I guess, the language barrier, what was like, very new to you in America?

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And like reflecting how like the cultural traits in your earlier life in Taiwan, like what seem— what appear to be unusual to this new country? Well I think okay.

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In Taiwan, I was probably one of those so called lucky ones. Like I was pretty smart and I live in a in a really nice neighborhood and attend very good high school. And and I was not the smartest in my

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class; but I was not dumb either. And, and I you know, I called myself a “free range chicken”. My mom was in America with my brothers already for a couple years, before I came with my dad.

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And so I was in Taiwan with my father who works very hard and long hours, and he basically gave me, you know, he had total 100% trust. So I was able to hang out with my– my friends you know, shopping eating out

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and do whatever we want— within limits of course. And– and– and all of a sudden came to America, I remember the first night I arrived Atlanta, the airport, I saw the first black man in my life.

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Oh my god, I thought their shoes are bigger than boats. I've never seen a feet that big, and skin that dark. And I was fascinated and I was just staring at them like I remember the

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first black man I've seen my entire life was a I guess a luggage porter; you know like when you luggage claim that there were guys were helping out to load the luggage.

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So instead of looking for my own luggage, I was staring at the poor guy, like when my big two eyes. That was a culture shock. And, and I was extremely worried because I didn't speak

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English that well. And all of a sudden I– I you know, change from the prankster of the class. Yeah, the, I think I was, I was probably one of the reluctant speaker

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for my class. You know, like in Taipei, every Sat- Saturday morning, yeah, there was a news recap. And so every class had to send one

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of their students to, to do the, the so- called 实时报告 . Like, you know, like, we kept the entire news worthy, like condensed version in 15 minutes. And so I was given that horrible task not because I was good; but

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because because I was dumb, I guess. You know, I mean, like people say you can do it. And I was like, “What?” “Well, you go, your, your your family's, you know, moving to America, you don't have to study for

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college examinations. So you have all the time in the world, you can do it, nobody else wants to do that job.” So, so, you know, from a person who had to sort of, you know, do this pseudo, you know, editorial

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thing in front of the entire school, to a person who cannot speak a word on the first day, in the new high school... was a big shock.

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It's almost like, you know, doing a north pole exhibit-exhibition with the bikinis. It was just, it was just a disaster. And and I don't know how to describe it.

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But at the same time, my brothers who had been in America for about two years at the time, and they were younger, and they spoke English. Basically, they say, "Nah, no worry. First of all, put some lipsticks on.

00:31:43.520 - 00:31:59.690

All right. Secondly, you know, don't worry, I'm going to buy you a pair of high heels. You wear a skirt, make it short. You wear the high heels and put out lipsticks, you don't even have to speak a word. You, you just cruise

00:31:59.790 - 00:32:12.950

through the entire high school. Just act confident and tell everybody you are so-and-so sister, you pass." And of course, you know, coming from to like 12 year old, 14 year old like, "Oh, really

00:32:13.120 - 00:32:28.410

seriously?" So I did exactly what they said. And somehow in.... it worked. I don't know how to describe it. Of course, they— you know, the, they

00:32:30.570 - 00:32:45.380

had to put me in “English as a Second Language” class. So that helped a lot. And I was very grateful. But I still had to take English classes. And I— believe or not— to my parents are so new and

00:32:45.380 - 00:32:54.840

so lost in America. We were a one, you know, very confused family. We didn't know where to go. So we ended up in Stone Mountain, Georgia.

00:32:56.780 - 00:33:11.660

That's the most conservative place that you can find in the entire state of Georgia. At least in Atlanta, Metropolitan I think. And, and we're wondering, like, "Gee, how come our

00:33:11.660 - 00:33:22.000

families only Chinese family in a high school?" Duh. I think no smart Chinese family were actually moved to that area. I don't know why we ended up there.

00:33:23.890 - 00:33:37.890

Because the rent was cheap, I guess. And uh, we're the only Chinese family of the entire middle school and high school for a reason. But my brother, they were practicing

00:33:39.000 - 00:33:52.820

some kung fu moves. And then they were telling people that, “you know, I learned from Bruce Lee's teacher; and we're like Bruce Lee expert.” And all this you know, little boys were just

00:33:52.820 - 00:34:04.620

like, "Oh, seriously?” And then they would show up their number, and then, there's like, they have the fan of their own. And so those all little boys were my little champion to theirs. Like, “This is James.

00:34:04.620 - 00:34:16.860

This is the Raymond's sister. And they're the– the Bruce Lee champion family from Taiwan.” And so they're cool and, and all of a sudden I was like, “Oh hey, that's it."

00:34:19.870 - 00:34:36.770

Those days of it was quite, quite something. Yeah, wow. That was really interesting to hear. And I guess in high school back then, like as a teenager, there was so much peer pressure in your high school, right as...

00:34:37.280 - 00:34:55.050

Everywhere and even to this day, but I, I guess what I want to say is that my experience is probably quite different. If from my friends who say moved to Los Angeles or New York City or places

00:34:55.910 - 00:35:10.780

where there were more Asians. Again, it was just just because my parents didn't know anything. And my uncle at the time opened a restaurant in Stone Mountain area, and he needed somebody to help out.

00:35:10.780 - 00:35:23.140

So that's why we moved to the United States to help out my, my brother, my, my mom's brother. Help out his restaurant. So, so so we ended up in going to like, Stone Mountain High Dchool.

00:35:23.550 - 00:35:46.890

To this day I'm like, “Gee, how we survived there?” I don't know. Did your parents have to work multiple jobs back then? Well, oh, my mom actually had to sort of like, you know, my mom did, you know, help out my

00:35:46.960 - 00:35:55.940

uncle's restaurant. A Chinese restaurant— I won't even call a restaurant. It’s a chop-suey takeout. A sandwich shop. One

00:35:55.940 - 00:36:11.720

of those really scary places when you go to the rural area. And they say “Hunan Place”. That kind of scary stuff. My father spent, my father spent, I don't know, a few months, maybe a year at Emory University.

00:36:11.940 - 00:36:23.390

And he was a exchange scholar. So my father was— had a better time than mom, I think. But after a year, well, that was– that was right after the President Jimmy Carter's era.

00:36:26.180 - 00:36:38.130

We came in 1982-83. So Atlanta was opened up to new Asian immigrants. And so they wanted to do business with Taiwan, they want to do business with China.

00:36:38.650 - 00:36:53.270

So my father was brought in to the law firm as a Chi- Chinese experts, you know, try to make connections with with the business in Taiwan, also with China. So he, I think he had a better time than

00:36:53.370 - 00:37:12.500

my mom. But he was getting the salary as a junior, I guess, a junior attorney. So that was– that was slightly better than his government salary from Taiwan; but it's still not that great. So after a year, year and a half here, but then

00:37:13.730 - 00:37:27.960

my dad realized that, you know, he had three kids going to college. And then a college tuition in America is nothing like a college tuition in Taiwan, which is basically free. That he realized that, that was not the answer.

00:37:29.310 - 00:37:48.050

So he went back to Taiwan, and he resigned from his position in the government. And he started practice law. And so that, so he could afford to send us all to college and medical school and law school; and medical school with the

00:37:48.050 - 00:38:04.090

three of us. And we were lucky, I think that's part of working hard and sacrifice for your family, I think. Wow, that's, that must be a pretty traumatic period, like coming to a really conservative part of the state and...

00:38:04.640 - 00:38:11.800

No. That's what I'm trying to tell you. No, it was comical. It was funny. It was funny, because we knew

00:38:11.800 - 00:38:23.440

nothing. We didn't know... we coming, coming from Taiwan, I was like, the only thing I know about the Civil War was "Gone with the Wind".

00:38:24.130 - 00:38:30.760

That was a darn good movie. We kind of liked it. It was a romantic, in our very limited, like...

00:38:32.100 - 00:38:47.070

We didn't know about the south and north; and then when we go to Stone Mountain, we have the General Lee carved in the big rocks, like, like aliens, you know, alien rock from the space. I mean, that thing is huge, huge, huge, huge.

00:38:48.300 - 00:39:02.170

And we were just like,"General Lee, yay!" You know, we really didn't know. And of course, you know, um, you know, to this day, my brothers think they're Southerners.

00:39:04.020 - 00:39:17.830

And, you know, they speak with a very strong Southern accent. And I, I, you know, when Jimmy first met me— my husband, Jimmy— and he was like, "Oh, you have a Southern accent." They were like, "Oh, really?" I

00:39:19.570 - 00:39:28.410

might have lost it by now. But you know, it's very musical. It's very pretty. We liked it, but just that, like a Chinese, coming

00:39:29.180 - 00:39:40.940

from Taiwan with a Southern accent. That's just kind of weird. But it's really important part of history to learn about that. Well, I want to say is that, I feel

00:39:43.050 - 00:40:02.330

really lucky. That you know, born in 1965, when Taiwan is relatively stable, and we came to America during the Reagan era. And, you know, land of opportunity.

00:40:03.600 - 00:40:18.530

And be able to reinvent yourself over and over again. and be productive in every society that you are in. That experience is priceless.

00:40:20.120 - 00:40:34.880

And to many— to a certain extent, I feel like it's our duty of, my generation's duty to make sure that my daughter, and the ones after us, you know, have that opportunities

00:40:36.710 - 00:40:56.790

as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm wondering, as you mentioned, the very conservative part of town, did you experience any kind of like, racial slurs or racial prejudice during that period? I never did, I never did until Trump became

00:40:56.790 - 00:41:09.920

president. The day Trump became president. And that's just honestly, that's it. It To me, it's just unbelievable. I think there's a what you called the, “herd phenomena”.

00:41:12.860 - 00:41:24.620

Um, I think we're just like bunch of dogs, I take my dog to dog parks every day. And you can go into to a dog, and then

00:41:24.620 - 00:41:36.620

there was a bunch of, the two, the dogs were chasing each other and biting each other, like, the bad vibe. And my dog will just go there and fight with everybody else, like, you know, until I, you know, lose his tail or his nose.

00:41:37.290 - 00:41:48.580

Or that, you know, some days I'll go there, and all the dogs are happy. And then, and living harmoniously, the same dogs, I'm not joking. Okay? And my dog will go there, and then and play and kiss and

00:41:49.470 - 00:42:04.550

whatever. So I think that what I'm trying to say is that we can be the same person, but because our environment is differently, we react to our environment. Okay, so when we first moved to Atlanta,

00:42:07.070 - 00:42:21.430

it was again, as I said, it was right after Jimmy Carter just left the White House. And Georgia was starting to open to, to the world in some way; to at least to Asian

00:42:22.870 - 00:42:39.480

countries. And they, they are curious, they're open, and they wanted to know more about it, they want to do business with the Chinese. So we came as, quote unquote, a “pioneer”. And we love our

00:42:39.510 - 00:42:56.080

neighbors, and we made lots of friends. And we work together as a team. We bring our culture, our food, our values, our working ethics, ideas,

00:42:56.520 - 00:43:11.940

to- to- to Georgia. And we learned, we learned the openness, the warmth, the– the so called “conservative” shares with their friends.

00:43:13.200 - 00:43:30.170

In many ways, I feel like they're a little bit like... In Tai— when I grew up in Taiwan, you had to understand, my parents are from a southern Taiwan, the country, the pump– the “country pumpkins” you call them. And I, and I grew up, I was born and grew up in Taipei, the–

00:43:30.200 - 00:43:42.500

the city, the metropolitan area. And in Taipei, people are, you know, dressed up nicely. And, you know, everybody has a degree from university, or, or from America, you know.

00:43:42.500 - 00:44:00.610

So international metropolitan society. And my parents roots are in southern Taiwan, where people grow mango trees, you know, and there's no locks on doors; and your neighbor walking to your kitchen and demand to

00:44:00.610 - 00:44:14.940

lunch. Okay, and that's the difference. And so, when we moved to Georgia, that kind of reminds me a lot of my parents’ homeland or hometown.

00:44:16.140 - 00:44:31.130

And, and that the kind of warm and openess. And they, so long as you, you, as soon as they perceive you as one of them, they would, you are one of them.

00:44:32.700 - 00:44:49.720

But then, because of that, sometimes, as a group, that they become so close within the group, then they are suspicious of the others; or, or the people who perceive they perceive as superior or look

00:44:49.770 - 00:45:04.700

down on them, and they get mad them. Not necessary be open to them. It's the same story doesn't matter, if it's an Asian society or, or as American society, whether it was in

00:45:04.700 - 00:45:19.400

16th century or 21st century. You know, human societies, they there's some, you know, basic, basic phenomena that's true. And that just, you know, repeat itself.

00:45:20.300 - 00:45:39.590

You know, generation from generation. Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting because I remember seeing, like, an experiment of— probably you as a doctor would know— about, like, the hierarchy and like, examine how like people would always,

00:45:40.250 - 00:45:53.830

like observe and obey the hierarchy from above them; and, like, take the orders from them, which is part of the human trait that is, like, unavoidable.

00:45:54.870 - 00:46:06.760

Well, that, we are social, we're a social animal. I think that's why, that's why it's so difficult during the pandemics when we have to, you know, social distance. It’s just, you know, devastating.

00:46:07.530 - 00:46:26.090

And social animals are, you know, the way I, the way I look at is like, pack animals. So, even if in a small group, like, in my family, when we have a family reunion with all the brothers, moms,

00:46:26.910 - 00:46:40.540

and, and, and all the, you know, children, there is a, there's a hierarchy. Like “Which restaurant we're going to eat tonight?” I mean, there's a hierarchy. You know, we're, where are we going to do today, as a family of...

00:46:41.100 - 00:46:55.020

I don't know, how many 1, 2, 3, 4, 5-10, 11, 12, 13... A family of 17. Oh, boy, how you gonna make 17 people to go to the same restaurants? Three meals a day.

00:46:55.600 - 00:47:11.670

And do the same thing or different things that day? There will be a hierarchy. It's what makes us work as a society, I guess. Yeah, you have to, otherwise you'll be just you, you were you were, you will have, you

00:47:11.670 - 00:47:25.840

know, like 17 directions. And if you want to move as a society, you have to have a direction. And I think that's a very important, you know, to have a leader who, who doesn't lead the entire society to

00:47:26.140 - 00:47:43.880

the cliff. You know, just all fall off the cliff. Everybody die. I think the you know, but at the same time, I think a successful society my opinion, or a successful family, which is a small society, that you cannot have only one

00:47:44.810 - 00:47:59.900

absolute leader. Because if that person happened to make the wrong decision, everybody is going to suffer. Um, you know, like,

00:48:01.430 - 00:48:14.580

I, you know, for example, I'm the oldest of the family, so my mother always said, “listen to your sister.” Like, there's a saying in Chinese, “sisters are like mother”. Basically, I think my mom just said, "Too busy, I'm tired to be a mom.

00:48:14.890 - 00:48:29.200

Can I tell you being charge?" So it's a little bit unfair, you know, like, you know, as an older sister all of a sudden, you're in charge of bunch of unruly boys. And, and so, so my brothers are usually, they- they've been

00:48:29.200 - 00:48:40.100

trained, you know, from their, like toddlers to listen to your sister, right? So up to this day is like when we say, “okay, well, we're gonna eat Chinese, you know, tonight.” And they were just like, “Ugh!” But everybody would eat

00:48:40.100 - 00:48:55.500

Chinese. And then there it comes, when it comes to like, “What car should we buy for our kids?” You think they ll listen to me? I mean, listen, everybody's– everyone's gonna get a Volkswagen, if that's the case; and it may not

00:48:55.500 - 00:49:10.860

be the necessarily the best thing. So, or Prius or Toyota. Um, so, my brothers and the boys who pay more attention to this, and then they will become a leader in that direction, right?

00:49:12.100 - 00:49:24.330

When it comes to which hotel we're gonna stay definitely, you know, my husband, Jimmy is the person to go to. He, you know, he travels a lot and he knows what hotels; and he know how to get bargains, he knows which are scary, how

00:49:24.670 - 00:49:39.130

do you lay charge without paying... a late discharge without paying extra... and that kind of stuff. So, so I think that um, in the in a best case scenario in a in a good successful society

00:49:40.190 - 00:49:54.740

is that you cannot have only one leader. You have to have many leaders and depends on what the society needs at that moment. You, you, you have a way to to select a leader who

00:49:55.050 - 00:50:10.920

leads at that moment. So, I like, yeah, my mother is the more of the old tradition. It's like, she would just say, "Listen to your sister."

00:50:10.920 - 00:50:24.860

And that's it. Or "Listen to me," which is my mom. And that's it. Everybody had to follow her. If she wants to eat Chinese, then we're all gonna eat Chinese, whether we're in China, Taiwan, or in the middle of the Europe with is

00:50:25.100 - 00:50:41.930

absolutely, had the greatest Italian food and no Chinese restaurant, we're gonna eat Chinese that day. "Come on, mom, seriously, are we gonna do that?" So, so I'm kind of, you know, learn from, from my

00:50:42.650 - 00:50:57.890

growing up, and from my experience, and that I want, I want my children to, to be able to, to live in a society where you can have that kind of flexibility.

00:50:59.160 - 00:51:12.390

Yeah, yeah, that's really nice to hear. I'm wondering, speaking of food, when you first came to Atlanta, Georgia, what food you eat? Like, do you order out or your mom or parents would cook?

00:51:13.230 - 00:51:28.580

Oh, my mother never cooked. Um, she, she is, she belongs to the generation when if you're a professional woman— whether you're a teacher, nurse or whatnot; you don't cook. You hire maid to cook for you, right?

00:51:28.950 - 00:51:42.220

So she never cooked in her entire life. And then and, and luckily, I think we survived because she didn't cook. She's really bad in cooking. But then when I came to the United States, initially, we–

00:51:42.840 - 00:51:53.730

we ate in the restaurant, my uncle's restaurant. And, um, because there's always food; and nighttime, my mom would bring all the food home, and then we all eat. But after

00:51:53.730 - 00:52:09.190

a while, we realized that the restaurant food sucks. It was just, it's egg rolls every night. And they're, they're cold, leftover egg rolls, and like, nobody wants to eat that.

00:52:09.190 - 00:52:20.160

And plus, after a while my mom left, I have to cook for my two brothers and my three cousins, they are boys. Various age in high school. So at one point, I was in medical, I

00:52:20.320 - 00:52:30.740

was in high– college, and I was rooming with five boys— my two brothers, my three cousins. They all were growing teenagers.

00:52:31.390 - 00:52:43.360

So I had to learn how to cook for basically an army, and with a limited budget. And I realized, you know, chicken drums is very good.

00:52:44.440 - 00:52:57.520

Soy sauce chicken drum with a little bit of a onions on the top. And rice, of course. And so I learned how to cook out of necessity. And then I learned how to make dumplings from the

00:52:58.440 - 00:53:14.710

graduate students from Taiwan and Asia and China. We didn't have that many Chinese, Chinese students from China, in the 80s in Atlanta; they came in the 90s and later. But there were more Taiwanese students, graduate

00:53:14.710 - 00:53:32.350

students. So they would always have the Student Association, and people will cook, and then I'll learn from them. A lot of wrong thing, I think; but- but you know, food nonetheless. But then, when I had a, I guess a— what do you

00:53:32.530 - 00:53:48.290

call, “college sweetheart”— and who went my school with me. And, and his mother was a very good cook. And so she would teach me how to do all the things I supposed to learn from my mother, how to cook, how to clean the house, and, and everything.

00:53:48.290 - 00:53:59.240

I mean, we're still good friends. You know, I broke up with her son years and years ago. But she also she didn't have a daughter, she only had one son. So she really liked me a lot.

00:53:59.890 - 00:54:16.960

And she taught me how to, to cook and to do housework; and which, you know, I benefit to this day. We initially ate mostly the, the pseudo Chinese food, I guess.

00:54:17.140 - 00:54:27.390

Basically just: you put the meat— no, you put a little oil, you put the meat there; and you brown it, add water there; and then you put vegetables on top of that; and you put soy sauce. And that's it.

00:54:27.850 - 00:54:41.690

I mean, pretty much a little bit, one notch above dog food in my opinion. We lived on that for years and it's okay then. And then I learned how to cook the American food, of course. So spaghettis and pizza stuff and then I invented.

00:54:42.050 - 00:54:58.620

And then also I have a godmother in Georgia and whom I met later. And she's Chinese and her husband is a physics professor at University of Georgia.

00:54:59.060 - 00:55:11.360

So she taught me how to cook real Chinese food. I was in col— I was muscular by then. And so, and she has, again, she has only one

00:55:11.360 - 00:55:25.350

son, she has no daughter. So she taught me how to cook Chinese foods. And so I learned a lot from her. And then I met Jimmy, when I was, when I graduated from my school, my last year in my school.

00:55:26.960 - 00:55:41.820

I was just graduated. And so we dated for a while, and I still remember, I was working as an intern in medical school and, and my boyfriend wanted to visit me.

00:55:42.660 - 00:55:56.190

So I have to, you know, like, go out with him. So after like, maybe two or three dates, he was like, "Oh, I'm so tired. I just get off the airplane like, can we eat at home?" I'm like, "You want

00:55:56.190 - 00:56:10.860

to eat what? You want to eat at home? Like you want to eat my food?" And I was like, "Hmm." So I make him soy sauce spaghetti. I remember this, wuth chicken drums,

00:56:11.750 - 00:56:22.340

and some vegetables. I think that's like, that would teach you to take me out to eat, instead of like eating at home. I mean, seriously, and, and not realizing that

00:56:23.070 - 00:56:36.610

Jimmy's just want to make sure that his girlfriend know how to cook so he won't suffer for the rest of his life. That's so sweet. And you invented a new recipe. Soy sauce? I learned that from my godmother.

00:56:36.610 - 00:56:52.970

She moved to the United States in 1961. And she met her husband— I think, I think, I think, I think it was correct— on the ship. The- the— on their way here because it

00:56:52.970 - 00:57:10.000

takes about about month to to travel via the ocean. From Taiwan, they didn't have airplane in those days. So they met in Keelung port. And then until a month, and then landed in San

00:57:11.560 - 00:57:27.930

Francisco, something like that. Wow, they were dates, they were boyfriend girlfriend, or something like that. That's so sweet. And I'm just wondering, how are the moving on to your college experience at

00:57:27.960 - 00:57:44.090

Georgia and Emory, what are the more kind of the demographics like, I guess, in Georgia, in Georgia Tech, and Emory? Um, I went to Georgia Tech. Um, well, okay, back off.

00:57:44.210 - 00:57:55.820

Um, when I graduated from high school, I realized, "Oh my god, you know, I had to go to college." And I can play piano, right. And so my piano teacher helped me

00:57:55.820 - 00:58:09.480

to get a high school certificate, so I can apply college. I figure, I mean, I, I cannot stay home and work as a waitress in the restaurant, that would be the last thing on you. And if I, if I went back to Taiwan, I have to study,

00:58:09.920 - 00:58:27.150

seriously study, to, to, to, to get into college, that will be harder than to study, the SAT, I think, in my opinion, in those days. And so I got a piano scholarship in University of Georgia to study piano.

00:58:27.810 - 00:58:41.020

I said, "Oh, at least I have a place to go." But my father said, "You’re going to be a piano teacher? You're gonna be– you're gonna be like, starving to death.” And or like, or, “You have to make

00:58:41.020 - 00:58:51.800

sure that you have to teach a lot of students…” And “none of us think that you play piano that well." So long story short, “you may want to consider study something else.” And in which I agree.

00:58:52.450 - 00:59:09.110

And for a person who play a stereo to try to impress her neighbors, you know. I wasn't really a real pianist. So I studied hard for the SAT.

00:59:09.170 - 00:59:21.740

I got a pretty much a perfect score in math. And that was, you know, thanks to my high school education from Taiwan. And my brother told me that, "Oh, don't worry, all you have to do is write

00:59:21.740 - 00:59:33.000

your, your name down, you get 200 for English." I was like, "Really? That's 1000.” You know, like it was a 1600 total. “800 English and 800 math. So that's 2000." "Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:33.390 - 00:59:45.900

And you put all B's in the English part if you don't understand it, and you have, and so you get another quarter of the 600. So you will have a 1050.

00:59:47.400 - 01:00:05.430

I think, and that's good enough to go to a University of Georgia." So I was, "Really?" My math was so bad, I actually believed him. That was like all these things kids tell themselves. And long story short, I actually did okay with my

01:00:05.460 - 01:00:20.220

SAT. And so I apply for Georgia Tech, which was only about 60 miles away from Stone Mountain. So I can continue to just stay home, take care of my brothers, and my cousins, and be their mom.

01:00:21.070 - 01:00:32.180

Um, so that was a must for me to do. My mom was counting on it. And plus Georgia Tech was a state school. So the tuition was dirt, dirt cheap, it was $600

01:00:34.050 - 01:00:42.860

per semester or less. And I ended up met a wonderful chemistry professor, Dr. Yu and he hired me as a lab technician.

01:00:43.370 - 01:00:50.120

And I was making more than $600. From this, I was making money in college. It was unbelievable.

01:00:51.730 - 01:01:05.720

And I personally think I, if I remember correctly, you are 13 boys to one girl. Georgia tech was a very technical school. And for many years was only as good as boy school only.

01:01:05.720 - 01:01:21.730

It wasn't until very recently, at the time that they started to take girls and no girls with with a, I will say no girls with, with a smart mind who actually go to Georgia Tech during those days. And there were there were a lot of

01:01:22.020 - 01:01:34.180

walking robots in those days on campus, I think it was a joke. They said that, “If you see a girl that actually looks like a woman, and that must be somebody's sister from Agnes Scott college, which is like down the street.”

01:01:34.310 - 01:01:50.330

Because I can either be some somebody's girlfriend or, or somebody's sister. Basically, they just don't believe that there was any girls that look normal, if you if they were at Georgia Tech. Of course, you know, besides a graduate

01:01:50.330 - 01:02:02.090

students, we're just doing sort of different. I'm talking about undergrad. So I went there, I had a great time, because there were boys and I grew up with boys. I grew up with two brothers

01:02:02.210 - 01:02:13.350

and and, you know, from the, from the, from the apartment complex side, that– that I grew up there were more boys than girls for some reason. And they were all younger than me.

01:02:13.510 - 01:02:23.330

So I knew how to deal with boys is the problem. They're always are like, you know, I think they were all like Dobermans, you know. They look scary, but they're very sweet.

01:02:24.110 - 01:02:39.050

So, uh, so I went there. And, and, and just to some degree, I was surprised that I actually did well. And I shouldn't say surprised, I had to work very hard.

01:02:40.370 - 01:02:53.180

And, and probably by the second year, I realized that I cannot do science, I hate science. I shouldn't say that. I don't do well, in science, I do better in humanity. And Georgia Tech didn't offer any humanity

01:02:57.960 - 01:03:09.310

in those days. They have some requirements, but not advanced classes. And the only thing that, that kind of interests me were pre-med. And so I figured... And I love

01:03:09.360 - 01:03:18.810

kids, I love kids. My, my goal in life when I was younger, I want to be a piano teacher. And so I thought, "Oh, maybe I can be a pediatrician."

01:03:20.120 - 01:03:37.380

So in order to go to medical school, I have to have very, very good grades. And I also had to stand out from other from other students, and it was very competitive to get into med school, even those days. I remember there were

01:03:37.380 - 01:03:54.950

1800 applicants for about 100 positions; 110 spots at Emory University medical school at the time. The GPA requirement was you had to be 3.5 or above, out of 4. So it was it was tricky for a person who didn't speak

01:03:54.950 - 01:04:11.890

English. So my mentor in, during college, who was Dr. Nineteen Yu, who was very, very, very supportive, that he believed in me. And he groomed me, he gave me a position in his laboratory, and he helped me to become a

01:04:11.950 - 01:04:25.070

researcher. And to this day, I benefit so much from working on... my, my involvement in his laboratory and also gave me a lot of confidence. He said, "Oh, I believe in you.

01:04:25.450 - 01:04:37.720

I- I can send you to medical school." He told me this. He believed in me that much. So I started believing myself. And I did it. That was wonderful to hear there

01:04:38.090 - 01:04:56.000

was someone in your life that believed in you, right. Having... You know, I think that, you know it's funny in that um, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, my piano teacher, my, Dr. Yu, and my husband, later.

01:04:56.670 - 01:05:09.630

They all believe in me, yeah. It's so wonderful. And I'm wondering, like, besides gender demographics, how are the racial demographics, like back in college?

01:05:09.700 - 01:05:24.780

Like, and what kind of clubs or activities did you get involved with you in college? Um, Georgia in those days, there are very few of Asians. My godmother was one of the 50 Chinese families

01:05:25.970 - 01:05:40.190

in Georgia. But she, she, she ended up in Atlanta, because my god, you know, like her husband got a professorship there. Right. So, so she moved to Atlanta, like, oh my gosh, you know, like, early

01:05:40.190 - 01:05:56.290

70s or something. And, but by the time my family moved there, or later, by the time I was in med school, I think Atlanta has grown from 50 families to 60,000, Asians,

01:05:57.120 - 01:06:13.100

to 150,000 Asians, by the time I was in medical school and left. But now is like, half a million more. I mean, like, crazy, or even more, I believe. So in the early days, when I was at Georgia Tech,

01:06:14.230 - 01:06:29.880

I would say if you're a woman, you stand out, like everybody knew you. I mean, it was just that rare. If you're Asian girl, you're one of a kind. I will say that all

01:06:29.880 - 01:06:42.620

those Asian boys in 1983, 84, 85, 87 at Georgia Tech, everybody knew me or heard of me.

01:06:43.360 - 01:07:00.940

That just that crazy. And, and not because I was outstanding or anything, which is because there were that few Asian girls. There were a handful of us, really, I would say like 10, 5,

01:07:01.870 - 01:07:18.770

that few that could speak, that could speak Chinese, Mandarin. I mean, there were some, probably some Koreans and there's some ABCs— American Born Chinese. But so I think it was, I was a sophomore

01:07:19.060 - 01:07:31.040

in college. They elected me to be the president of Chinese Students Association. And that was a big accomplishment because a lot of people want to be the president of the Chinese

01:07:31.310 - 01:07:46.660

Student Association. And I was like this, you know, 5’2, little sophomore. I went to see the advisor, Dr.

01:07:46.660 - 01:08:03.810

Wong, and he looked at me like, "They elected you?!" I say, "Yeah." And he goes, "Huh." And so then they not realize that they elected me because they were hoping me with a pretty face, more people would get

01:08:03.810 - 01:08:16.760

involved. Which they did. I mean, I felt like it was a bait, you know, like to, for the big fish in the, in the lake. And to try to get all the fish like they just put, "Yeah, our president is a little

01:08:17.150 - 01:08:33.560

19-year-old little, beautiful little thing.” And you know, “Come, come and you'll meet her.” I organize a lot of dance parties, for sure. That's an I felt like that's an earliest example of like, institutional

01:08:33.560 - 01:08:47.040

tokenization. Yeah, it was it was quite funny. And, and so because of that, because of that, and I got involved with

01:08:47.040 - 01:09:02.040

the Chinese Media Center in Atlanta. Because I was the studio representative, so I had to go to a lot of meetings. And I didn't mind, but after that, they realize, “Oh, you can speak Chinese, you can write Chinese.” I was like,

01:09:02.040 - 01:09:16.270

"Oh, yeah." So one summer. Oh my god, I think I was 18. Yeah, I was 18. They– they had one teacher in a Chinese school who had to had a family emergency of some

01:09:16.270 - 01:09:23.020

sort, and they couldn't teach. So I was actually the substitute Chinese teacher for... I was 18.

01:09:23.020 - 01:09:33.160

I was like, "I can't teach Chinese." And then I look at those kids. They were like, sixth graders and seventh, fourth graders. I don't have kids to start with. And also, "Oh, yeah, I can

01:09:33.160 - 01:09:43.910

teach Chinese. No problem." So I actually had like one or two classes I was teaching Chinese in the summer and made me a lot of money as well. It's like, yeah, this pays better than the work the restaurants, the waitress.

01:09:47.380 - 01:09:59.730

Wow. So much. Yeah, so interesting. And I'm wondering like, given your upbringing is so much with competing, as well as some like living with boys in your family.

01:10:00.170 - 01:10:15.310

Like, how does being a woman and especially later in your career as a woman of color, kind of, like added to your experience and shaped your ...? Okay I can tell you this, it's funny, because because I was the oldest, and my mother

01:10:15.310 - 01:10:27.830

always say, "You're in charge of the boys." So I've learned very early on, you know, in charge of boys takes a lot of skill. You know, I cannot intimidate them. They are taller than me. And they're stronger than me.

01:10:27.830 - 01:10:39.410

And they're, oh, boy, when they started to run around, hitting each other, how are you going to stop them? Right? So, so that gave me a lot of experience, how to deal with them how to use words to threaten.

01:10:40.860 - 01:10:53.360

Or persuade in that way. I remember when I was interviewing Emory University, I only interview two schools. I, I was very limited in the medical

01:10:53.360 - 01:11:04.990

school I can go to, because I had to take care of my brothers. So my preference would be Emory University, which is located in Atlanta. And my second choice will be University of Georgia, which is about an hour away,

01:11:06.190 - 01:11:19.350

an hour and a half away, you know, Augusta Georgia. And when I and I wanted to go to Atlanta, I want to stay in Atlanta. So I didn't want to drive back and forth. And remember that there was interview and there were three professors sitting

01:11:19.350 - 01:11:30.040

there for three candidates, okay? That's how they do they interview three professors and three prospective students. And I was, I was the only girl in that particular interview.

01:11:30.960 - 01:11:44.220

And they're one of the professors with the was an Indian professor. And then a bunch of you know, I think very silly questions, I'm sure I've, I prepare for them. And one of them is I remember this,

01:11:44.320 - 01:11:55.250

the Indian professor says, "So why do you want to be a doctor?" Oh, I was like, "Can I tell them I want to make money?" But I can't say that, of course. You know, I say, "Oh, I want to save mankind."

01:11:58.430 - 01:12:07.850

And I was blushing myself when I was saying that. And but I say, "Yeah, as I said, I love, I love science. And you know, I have a very strong background, have the GPA." All that.

01:12:08.360 - 01:12:25.390

But, but I love people, I say, "I love to work with the people. I love kids. And I love mankind, I think I can, I can do well." And, and he and he said, "Oh, so if you if you have $1 million, what would you do?" I'm like, "Can I say I want to put it in a

01:12:25.430 - 01:12:40.270

bank?" But I can't say that, of course. Right? I mean, so I said, "Well, if I have a $1 million, I'm gonna, you know, start this Children's Fund, and I'm gonna do…” This and this and that, and that and that.

01:12:41.240 - 01:12:55.730

And he goes, "Well, how can I trust you? You know, how can I trust you that you go to med school and you fall in love, and– and then you just marry and be a housewife." And that actually shocked me.

01:12:56.330 - 01:13:08.430

And of course, and then from... I mean, many years later, I realized, my Indian friends, my Indian girlfriends, that's the kind of the culture limitation they face.

01:13:08.790 - 01:13:22.050

I don't think as a Taiwanese, Taiwanese, Chinese or Chinese from Taiwan that was the case. My mom was always been a professional woman her entire life. She didn't cook in the, you know, in the kitchen.

01:13:23.790 - 01:13:40.350

I was expected not to learn how to cook because that just— why bother kind of thing. I... it never occurred to me that he would say that, like, “I'm gonna get married and, and not practice medicine.”

01:13:41.950 - 01:14:01.600

And luckily, I was probably sober and smart enough to say, "Well, my mother have worked her entire life as she raised three children, and I don't see any conflict in that. And I believe in the family as a partnership." So I...

01:14:03.440 - 01:14:21.140

it never, I say, "It never even occurred to me, that would be a possibility." And so I got accepted. Actually I got accepted on the spot, believe it or not. Because I remember that after the

01:14:21.230 - 01:14:35.150

interview, there were I want to say about 40, 50 students you know prospective students. So they have a reception to meet all the professors who there were a bunch of, many groups, you know, like groups of professors

01:14:35.150 - 01:14:49.200

interviewing group of students. And so at the end, there was a reception and with a little finger foods and drinks, and so I must have impressed the– the interviewer.

01:14:49.280 - 01:15:03.270

And I don't remember if the Associate Dean, Dr. Filner, Joe Filner, and he's a really prominent cardiologist at Emory University. And he came up to me say "If, if,

01:15:05.590 - 01:15:20.890

if you promise you come to Emory if we accept you, and if you promise today, you will come to Emory. If we accept you, then you're in." And I was in the reception. And I was sitting there, thinking; I was shaking, I think it was

01:15:20.890 - 01:15:32.930

like, I feel like the bottom floor is open. I was falling to this unbelievable happy, happy bliss. Like, I tried to pretend I was like, very confident.

01:15:32.930 - 01:15:45.720

I said, "Of course, I want to stay in Atlanta. I'm a, I'm a I'm a, I'm a Georgian. You know, I'm a Southerner, and I want to stay here." Not knowing— Oh my god, I actually that's... Dr. Filner is Jewish.

01:15:47.930 - 01:16:02.750

And he's probably like, "What's wrong with this little girl?" Um, so- so he said, "Then you're in." I'm like, “Oh god, it was probably one of the happiest days of my life.”

01:16:02.810 - 01:16:18.380

Yeah. So to answer your question, to this day, every time I feel like, you know, like, if I have doubts, if I want to practice and what I do with my career, I always just go back to that moment. Oh, that darn Indian professor asked,

01:16:18.880 - 01:16:33.990

asked me if I would just, you know, give up medicine, because, all girls do that. And, and I would just say, “you know, I'm, you know, I'll do anything, just to prove to that, that man that, that— No, women don't do that.”

01:16:34.530 - 01:16:48.840

It's so encouraging to hear. And, yeah, I guess what, also what attracts you to practicing pediatric– pediatrics as a doctor later on in life?

01:16:50.160 - 01:17:05.110

Um, well, I kind of I love kids to start with, I mean, I guess you know, the fact that I have to take care of my brothers since I was in elementary school; and was successful and then take care of my many, many, many

01:17:05.110 - 01:17:14.690

cousins; and later on my students in the Chinese community center, so forth. I always like kids, so they don't intimidate me, they don't scare me.

01:17:15.400 - 01:17:32.130

I like them. And the second thing is I remember as a medical students, a fourth, third year medical student, I was, you know, we had to do the rotations from surgery, internal medicine, blah, blah, many rotations and I was doing my first physical exam

01:17:32.780 - 01:17:52.990

as a medical student in my entire life. And there was this guy... I had to do a— I had to do a rectal exam to feel if there is, you know, polyps and I was like, “I’m going to stick my fingers in somebody's butt?” I mean, so I

01:17:52.990 - 01:18:07.990

went into this room and there was this giant lying in bed, on the bed and really, you know, white hair guy, very really nice. And and I was like, "Sir, I'm so

01:18:07.990 - 01:18:20.020

sorry, I'm so very sorry. But I'm a third-year students and I'm- I'm here to do a complete physical exam on you and have to find your pulse, listen to your heart; and at

01:18:20.020 - 01:18:34.400

the very- very end, after like 45 minutes torture, I have to do your rectal exam." And then I know he was so impa– he was so patient with me; and he and he- he goes, he went, "Deeper!

01:18:34.610 - 01:18:43.500

Deeper! Harder! You're not seeing! You're not– you're not touching it. You're not finding anything, you'll never find a polyp that way." And I was– he was yelling at me.

01:18:43.500 - 01:18:55.480

So I did the whole thing. And I came out and realize, "Oh my god, you know that he was actually a professor." He was– he was– he was a doctor. He was like teaching me with his body.

01:18:57.180 - 01:19:15.480

But I also realized that I cannot, or I do not enjoy do a physical exam on a patient who is exactly twice my size. He was over 200 pounds and I'm like I, you know, my fingers is too short; or I was trying to roll him, the poor guy, you know;

01:19:15.570 - 01:19:26.590

have all this, you know, things attached to him, ivy and lids and everything. And I tried to push him, you know, and I couldn't push him; and, and he was too sick to move himself.

01:19:26.590 - 01:19:38.520

And, and, and then that moment I walked out of that room. I said, "Okay, pediatric here I come." You know, I could do with patients that are smaller than me; but probably not a person that was like twice my size.

01:19:39.830 - 01:19:55.150

Pediatrics is very, very interesting. And, um, besides the fact that I enjoy the patients smaller than me, so it's easier to handle. At least, you know, physically. Also, it's a internal medicine for the young people.

01:19:55.850 - 01:20:12.750

For the– for the first one third of the... of a lifetime, and it's a period of development. It's a period of growth is a source of hope. And, and to me, that's the,

01:20:12.980 - 01:20:28.710

that's a part of human lifespan that I really enjoy the most. I feel like whatever I do is going to matter so much. And it's going to have a long-term cons- consequence. And, and the medicine part,

01:20:28.710 - 01:20:41.850

the plain detective part is just as hard as internal medicine. So I enjoyed it very much. And that, and then that's, you know, that's me.

01:20:44.500 - 01:20:58.830

The pediatrician. That's really inspiring to hear that you're, yeah, you have hope and for the younger generation, too, yeah. For to help in their earlier part of life.

01:20:58.980 - 01:21:13.880

And I guess, for your career that spans a few decades, what was the most memorable moments? Or the like one patient that treat, you treated that became

01:21:15.660 - 01:21:29.560

very connected and attach with? Oh, well, there were few, I guess everybody has everybody, everybody will have the, you know, experiences that they can, they can't forget.

01:21:30.320 - 01:21:43.360

And it may not be the most important. They're just those few moments of their life, they just kind of stay with you forever. I remember, as a young, as a young

01:21:46.310 - 01:22:03.250

resident, my first year as a full blown pediatrician, I had a patient that was in my service for many months and the mother is a very, was a very young Pakistani woman, and that was her first child.

01:22:04.380 - 01:22:17.140

And that was my first, my own patient. So I was following him from like birth to two months, four months, six months exam. And the when the baby was about six months

01:22:17.230 - 01:22:27.290

or eight month. Oh, yeah. And I remember that when he was like two months old, I would exam him, I was tickling him, and he pee’d on me. It gave me a baptism, tight in my face, little boy.

01:22:28.280 - 01:22:42.120

So yeah, I remember this boy. And so I think when he was about to turn, between six months and eight month, the mother came, said, "Oh, Doctor, I'm sorry, we, we're, we're gonna move back to Pakistan for a while, so we're going to miss you for a few

01:22:42.120 - 01:22:55.950

months." And you know she brought me a little present for goodbye. And, and, and so I said, I'm gonna miss you. So I was examining him and everything. And so she was giving me all these questions.

01:22:56.460 - 01:23:10.800

You know, I'm going back to Pakistan, I'm going to ask you all these questions. So she asked me all this questions about, you know, how to deal with; what to expect, you know, eight months and twelve months. And later on and what, what do I say and

01:23:10.800 - 01:23:24.150

why he's not talking? And what is... you know, blah blah blah. And finally she say, “But- but so, so so, but what about your own kid?” I was like, “I'm not married.” So she, within half a second took the baby away from me.

01:23:25.580 - 01:23:38.160

It's like, "You're not married?" So she took the baby away from me. "So why am I listening to you?" And I was like, shocked. "So wait, wait a minute. You've been my patients for like, over half a year.

01:23:38.830 - 01:23:53.170

Just because I don't— I'm not a mom doesn't mean I don't know what I’m saying, do I?" So I remember that so vividly. I mean, um, and, and I was pretty— I guess I was a little bit upset at the time.

01:23:53.170 - 01:24:06.070

I was like, you know, come on, you know, all my training. I knew, I knew, I knew everything. And now, you know, like, 30 years later, I realized that I can see how the young

01:24:06.070 - 01:24:19.760

mother, you know, reacted that way. And there were so many things that doctors don't know. Yeah, it's sort of like, there's no, there's no... I mean, yes, diagnosis.

01:24:19.760 - 01:24:32.970

Yes. They are treating diseases, treating infectious disease. Yes. But growth and development, there's so many variations and there are so many things that just not medicine. But it's sort of like communication with your

01:24:33.060 - 01:24:48.230

mother-in-law, with the with the teachers, with the– with the– with the family's expectations. So that, and that's, that's related to the world of development, but that's not medicine. So I can see why that she took the baby away

01:24:48.230 - 01:25:03.800

from me. I remember this so vividly. Oh, that's a little harsh, I felt. Yeah, in a way. Um, like, has your medical career informed more

01:25:04.390 - 01:25:17.140

about your creative writing career— the other side of your life? Oh, absolutely. Um, absolutely. Um, I was always a good writer, I suppose.

01:25:17.620 - 01:25:26.900

Ever since I was perhaps fourth grade. I remember my teachers always say you should write more; you should, you should write for this magazine, that magazine.

01:25:27.030 - 01:25:44.590

And then they would, they would take my writing and, and, and publish it without my knowing and show me various magazines, or publications. And I will, I will, I will always feel like really, that's

01:25:44.620 - 01:25:58.850

good enough? I mean, I have very high expectations for myself. I read all this great literature's I just don't think that I have anything to say. To this day, I think that, you know, if you have a high expectation, you'll become a

01:25:59.160 - 01:26:15.590

better, better writer, better artists that are, you know, what, in whatever you do; but at the same time, I think as a woman, we have we internalize so many things. And then we sometimes, because of that, we'll lose our own

01:26:15.590 - 01:26:27.560

confidence. I will not say, personal lack of confidence, that's definitely not true. But I always feel like I can be better. And this is not good enough.

01:26:28.710 - 01:26:51.130

And that's a bit different from lack of confidence. I remember that, I was actually, I was elected as the representative, young, yeah. Representative of the young physicians for the American Academy of Asthma Allergy

01:26:51.130 - 01:27:01.210

Immunology. I think in 1990... maybe 2000, 2001. That was a, so I was on the board. Which is like a big honor.

01:27:01.530 - 01:27:19.710

Like, I'm sitting with all this, you know, like, big shots and talking about national issues and related to our specialties and blah, blah, blah. And I feel like, okay, these people will be in physicians for 40 years, or 50 years, and some of them

01:27:19.710 - 01:27:33.070

are retired, and they have so much more to tell me. So I should listen and learn and not say much, right. And so initially, being Asian women, the I remember the president, at a time is Dr.

01:27:33.430 - 01:27:47.990

Jean Chapman. And he was I, “Oh, they elect, they elected this timid Asian girl.” So he took me aside, hold my hand, it's wonderful. This wonderful old Midwest– Western physician,

01:27:49.130 - 01:28:07.430

he said, "Debbie, be assertive, you know, speak up. We're just a bunch of old people, we want to listen to your points of view, you need to, you know, say something." And two to three years later, we became friends

01:28:07.990 - 01:28:26.690

forever. And until he passed away a couple years ago, and he would say, "Oh boy. Was I wrong about you?" In other words, I believe in the fact that sometimes the Asian woman's of, of like, learning, being quiet, is

01:28:29.740 - 01:28:43.760

a quiet strength. In, in a society of America, sometimes they would, we can be mistaken as being timid and not smart; but that's far from truth. And, and I have never had a doubt that

01:28:43.880 - 01:29:02.390

I was anything but timid. It just, you know, we do it in a different way. Yeah. And do you mind going through some of the creative processes in your writing that...? So, so okay, so that writing, um,

01:29:02.750 - 01:29:17.610

okay, back. So I was always told I was a good writer, but I never have that much. I didn't think that I was that good. So, I… Oh, you know, and so I write sometimes, but not always.

01:29:18.260 - 01:29:30.060

Um, and then when I was second year at college, I was at Dr. Yu's laboratory, enjoy the time of my life. As he was he

01:29:30.060 - 01:29:41.790

basically took me under his wing and, and he, he, he kept telling me, you know, “you were one of my brightest students. And you were so… you were so out of the box. You're not just doing science, science, science and

01:29:41.790 - 01:29:57.520

nothing else.” And in and he, he was grooming me to be this, you know, a person I want to be. And he saw in me. And so I said, "Well, I don't really, I mean, I like doing research, but that's not

01:29:57.520 - 01:30:13.700

me. I'm a more person person. Like, I like to deal with people more than machine experiments. If I'm doing some research, I don't feel like I'm helping a patient, put a face on it.

01:30:14.270 - 01:30:32.610

I somehow sometimes get a little distracted or not, not motivated.” And so I'm in every summer I will go back to Taiwan to visit my father, because I'm missing him. So, and first, I

01:30:32.690 - 01:30:49.190

finished freshmen between freshman and sophomore year that summer, I came to Taiwan. And yeah, women, no, yeah. And, um, and because of my green card situation, I get stuck at Taiwan for three months.

01:30:49.330 - 01:31:02.690

So I had to skip one semester, I remember that. And so I ended up just staying in Taiwan with my father. And so I have nothing to do as I was in a bookstore, most of the time I discovered this a science magazine, the

01:31:02.740 - 01:31:12.440

only science magazine in Taiwan is called “Newton Science”. And it was published, it was published in New... Japan, and then translated

01:31:12.630 - 01:31:24.900

into Chinese, Mandarin, and published. And so that's how I discovered it. But it's always, you know, from a point of view from Japan. And there was always a Japanese

01:31:25.880 - 01:31:39.180

scientist this and American scientists that, and nothing about the Chinese. And nor the Taiwanese. I was a little bit disappointed, frankly, probably pissed off in my very

01:31:39.180 - 01:31:52.540

young age. And so I said, "Wait a minute, you know, when I was in America, I came across so many wonderful Chinese scientists, students. How come they were not featured there?

01:31:52.950 - 01:32:08.270

How come always Japanese and that Japanese?” And so I, so when I went back, that was my freshman year. So when I went back on the summer of sophomore year, again, I have nothing to do.

01:32:08.750 - 01:32:27.010

And my father didn't really want me to run around loose, you know, in Taiwan. I guess that's just not a thing to do, I guess, teenager. And so, so I, I called the magazine, though, you know, you open the magazine, there's a phone number.

01:32:27.010 - 01:32:44.500

So I just call and I introduce myself, I say, "I'm so-and-so I'm, I'm, you know, a student from Georgia Tech, and, and I am a, you know, a reader of your magazine since last year, and I read this and, and I am frankly, very disappointed to you,

01:32:44.830 - 01:32:59.200

that you have no, you know, represent pages of any, you know, Chinese scientists. And how can you call yourself a complete magazine, if you publish in Taiwan,

01:32:59.200 - 01:33:15.890

and you, you everything is Japan and America?!” And so the poor lady, so "Oh, excuse me, okay, let me connected to the chief editor." and the chief editors said, "Oh, let me let me talk to the publisher."

01:33:16.660 - 01:33:34.410

So a week later, the publisher invited me to visit their, the, you know, the office, so I went there, you know, with my beautiful dress and my high heels. I had to make a good impression. And, um, and so the, you know, the publisher, Mr.

01:33:34.750 - 01:33:50.500

Gao said so, "So, so, what do you have in mind?" I said, "I met all this great, you know, scientists and, and other Chinese scientists. And, and I can guarantee you that, you know,

01:33:50.930 - 01:34:06.350

if you write if you publish one article per month about this, you have, like, hundred years worth of material there. Believe me, you gotta, you know, say somebody do it." And, and, and he goes, "So are you, you know, recommending yourself?

01:34:07.370 - 01:34:23.730

I saw, yeah, I'm recommending myself. I can write." He goes, "Okay. So why don't you try, you know, like, write a few and see what happened." So I said, "Oh, okay." So I went home thinking, "Oh, like, what am I getting

01:34:23.870 - 01:34:32.050

into me?" So I asked Dr. Yu, Dr. Yu said, "Uh oh." And then as my godmother. And my godmother says, "What?

01:34:32.780 - 01:34:41.230

You got yourself a what? And she got herself into trouble?" And so, so she asked her husband, Dr. Shi, and Dr.

01:34:41.230 - 01:34:52.560

Shi said, "Oh, no problem." Dr. Shi studied, he got his Ph. D at Columbia University years ago. And he's a thesis advisor was

01:34:55.210 - 01:35:06.960

Wu Chien-Shiung. Professor Wu Chien- Shiung, and of course, you know, was the “Madame Curie of China” from the 50s and 60s, and were famous. And so, so, Dr.

01:35:06.960 - 01:35:24.960

Shi says, "Ah, okay, no problem, let me call Dr. Wu." And I just, you know, go visit her and, and we can write a in-depth article about that, too, I'm sure it will be, you know, like, wonderful, because we know that

01:35:24.960 - 01:35:39.430

you're a good writer. And, and, and my mother and my grandmother is a writer. And she, she published a few books in Chinese.

01:35:39.540 - 01:35:52.570

And then she also told me that I'm a very good writer, that I could do it. And if, if I can't, and she will, you know, help me out. Basically, she said, you know, that was a pre-Google days, if I can't remember a

01:35:52.570 - 01:36:03.540

word, I would just call my mother, my godmother and say, "Oh, godma, godma,” you know, like, “oh, how do you write this?” Like, “and what does this mean?" Like, she was my Google, Google translate those days.

01:36:03.660 - 01:36:18.890

And so I was like, "Okay, good. No problem." So I, so I call the publisher say, "Yeah, I'm going to interview Wu Chien-Shiung, I'm gonna interview Zhu Jingwu, who also became a he was very, very his study in a low temperature

01:36:22.900 - 01:36:35.650

conducts... 低溫超導體 , was, was quite hot, and, and new at the time in 1987, 86. So, so I lined up with all this, you know,

01:36:36.330 - 01:36:47.970

fantastic Chinese scientists. A list of Chinese scientists, I interviewed them and I wrote them. And I think maybe,

01:36:49.290 - 01:37:06.020

believe it or not, the second article, maybe the first or second article, it was 1986. And Dr. Yuan Lee got a Chemistry Nobel Prize.

01:37:07.430 - 01:37:20.480

And I like, “ah-ha,” so Dr. Yu, again, you know, I was a second-year student, like, I have absolutely no credential, right. And I just got this, I just got this assignment from this

01:37:20.550 - 01:37:32.840

magazine, which is like a… "Hello, I have no credential either." So Dr. Yu said, "Ah,” Rhat's Dr. Yu who’s a professor in chemistry. He said, “No problem. I'm going to write you a recommendation letter.

01:37:33.800 - 01:37:49.920

And then you mail with the magazine to this address." He gave me the address of the Berkeley at the time, Dr. Lee's office. And, and I think I maybe have one or two recommendations.

01:37:52.580 - 01:38:09.040

And to Dr. Lee I said, "May I please have a private interview to write an article about you? For Newton magazine?" So within within one month, I wrote two articles

01:38:10.250 - 01:38:26.590

about Dr. Lee. Right after, immediately after he got a Nobel Prize. And that was my debut for my Newton's Science magazine column, which I- I did throughout my college

01:38:26.590 - 01:38:42.800

years. It was dumb luck, right? I guess. So I wrote one article about him as a person. And the second article about his laboratories, and he studied, the things that won him the

01:38:42.800 - 01:38:59.260

Nobel Prize, and was featured prominently in the Newton magazine. And I was, you know, okay, photographer. So I took photos, and that was in the cover of the Newton magazine. And so that was my first and second articles I

01:38:59.260 - 01:39:16.010

wrote for Newton. And, and after that, I think they, they, they figure this a little girl actually could do things. And so they gave me they gave me an annual contract. And I had that job until I started med school, which I got too busy

01:39:16.630 - 01:39:29.640

to survive in medical school, so I had to give up. And also I guess I have to thank Mr. Gao in believing me. A very

01:39:29.640 - 01:39:47.880

unique person. Wow, that's so amazing to hear your stories from like, the experience of your growth and the people in your life. And next, I'm wondering like with later on becoming a mother like, your motherhood and how is it, how does

01:39:47.880 - 01:40:03.280

it challenge balancing work? Yeah, like you have different titles and careers, and like being a mother and also like, you're so important in your, your husband's career as well as,

01:40:03.510 - 01:40:17.520

you're like supporting him all these years, how do you balance all these different tasks in your life? Well, um, I was a pediatrician to start with, and I remember I had a patient, um, her name was Asia.

01:40:18.270 - 01:40:33.880

I don't know, I swear to god, it wasn't it was not named after me— Asia, like Asia Society, Asia. Was a black little girl premature, preemie. And I took care of that preemie for like two years as a fellow at New York

01:40:33.880 - 01:40:46.220

Hospital. She just couldn't breathe. You know, she, she had a horrible lung. Um, she was in the hospital for a year and a half. And then you know, and I was at the time thinking

01:40:48.830 - 01:41:01.930

of become a specialist. So I don't have to take so many calls. I was on call every third nights. And I remember one time, Asia's mother– I was on call and Asia's grandmother,

01:41:02.160 - 01:41:15.930

Asian's mother was only a teenager like 15 years old. Imagine, so Asia's grandmother was actually only a few years older than me. Okay. And so she called me and said, "Oh, Asia, Asia is coughing, Asia's pulse ox measurement is only

01:41:16.180 - 01:41:32.210

like 45." And I was two o'clock in the morning, I was really groggy, and I woke Jimmy up. And Jimmy was screaming on background, say, "I got a New York Philharmonic concert performance tomorrow. I can't do this."

01:41:32.500 - 01:41:45.210

And I was like, "Oh my god." So I took the phone to another room and I tried to tell the grandmother, I said, "That cannot be right, you know, make sure you put the pulse ox in the finger correctly.

01:41:45.210 - 01:41:58.750

And if it's 45, you don't call me. I'm not in a hospital. I'm on call, but I'm not in a hospital, you call an ambulance." And so that was about two, three o'clock in the morning.

01:41:59.240 - 01:42:14.490

And I screamed at the grandmother. And Jimmy screamed at me and– and I went back to the hospital six o'clock. And the first thing that was I was told, my Asia died. The Asia ambulance, you

01:42:15.330 - 01:42:25.960

know, they call the ambulance. Ambulance went to the house, and the baby was dead, the baby was only discharged like less than a month from the hospital, where she lived her entire life until

01:42:25.960 - 01:42:43.410

then. And at that point, I realized that you know, in order to, to, to support Jimmy, I don't think I could be a pediatrician. And still you know, still, at least not the way I

01:42:43.580 - 01:42:59.720

envisioned myself working with the hospital, and be taking calls and all that. So at that moment, I decided I have to find a subspecialty where it's more of a consultation, no night calls and, and, and no emergency.

01:43:00.400 - 01:43:20.560

So I became a allergy immunologists shortly after that. Um, but I, you know, I like to play detective. You know, I- I like it very much, no doubt; but just that one incident actually made me realize that two careers, two

01:43:21.860 - 01:43:36.440

careers, family, sometimes one person has to make adjustments in order for it to work. And, and at that point, I can make the adjustment and be even happier. And whereas Jimmy,

01:43:36.510 - 01:43:50.470

is it's almost impossible for Jimmy to make the adjustment. It's not fair. And I don't think it was right either. So I made my first career adjustment, because of my marriage at that point.

01:43:52.340 - 01:44:03.350

Then, I think the... so I was a fellow for a while, you know. The, the fellowship there's a, there's research part. So I figured fellowship is easy.

01:44:03.910 - 01:44:18.900

There's no calls and you're doing resea– you know, research in a lab and nobody's calling you dying, that kind of stuff. I was very happy. And my, my supervisor was a groupie, a number one fan of Jimmy Lin, the violinist.

01:44:20.300 - 01:44:31.370

And so she was– she was the one who was like, call me this. “Debbie, Debbie, stop, stop.” I was like, “what?” “Stop, stop. You know, Jimmy's playing on the radio.” I was like, “I can't stop in the middle of experiments.” “Stop! No, no, I

01:44:31.370 - 01:44:45.880

bring the radio to you.” She, she was like, she was... so you know, she was just, you know, a music lover. And so, you know, I, I enjoy so much working with her, of course. And, and so she's so...

01:44:45.880 - 01:44:57.490

at that point I, I say well, she said, “Don't you want to have kids? So yeah, so– so this is a perfect time for you to have kids, isn't it?” I say, “Yeah.” And so you know, so we try to– try to, try for six months; and– and nothing

01:44:57.490 - 01:45:07.920

happened. And then so the other doctor, my doctor said, “Are you kidding me?! You have to take time off— or you do IVF! And so you... have you… You know!

01:45:08.010 - 01:45:19.720

You're a doctor, you know how to get pregnant! You have to find somebody unless you want to get pregnant with a mailman!” You know, I’m like, “Oh my god, this is terrible.” So I took maybe three months off.

01:45:19.820 - 01:45:33.110

No, I initially thought it was going to take six months off, and not taking three months off. So I traveled with Jimmy and all over world. And then and I remember, the first stop or second stop was Australia, there was a tour for about a month.

01:45:34.190 - 01:45:46.720

And so I was touring with Jimmy and everybody say, "Oh, so what do you do as a pediatrician? So how can you make time to travel with Jimmy?" I was actually thinking, "Am

01:45:46.720 - 01:45:58.500

I really make time traveling with Jimmy?" I mean, this is the you know, the only time of my life I think, unless I don't practice. And, and to make a long story short, I was sick and

01:45:58.500 - 01:46:12.740

tired of not just just doing nothing and following him and, and telling people I'm a pediatrician, but not practicing. And I was so to– to just staring at the hotel's lobby, the pole, the shop, the gift shops.

01:46:13.380 - 01:46:31.530

So I thought, “Oh, I don't think so I got to go, go back to work, I have, had to have my own life.” I was, I was, I was 30 years old. For god's sake, you know, I didn't think I was, you know, I will be able to be myself if I give up at the time.

01:46:32.580 - 01:46:47.370

And so after six months, I went back to work. No, after three months, I went back to work, I said, “this experiment,” I told my doctor, “this experiment, consider it failed.” But luckily, you know, we

01:46:47.370 - 01:47:02.530

got Lara a few years later. So, you know, let's try something else. That was lovely. I remember in your first interview with us, you spoke of being referred

01:47:02.530 - 01:47:17.020

to as the daughter of so-and-so, because some you have a very prominent father who's a lawyer in the hospital. Has it, I guess, at times been unavoidable being referred to as

01:47:17.060 - 01:47:31.180

the wife of Jimmy Lin? And... Yeah, always. Yeah. And has that like, I guess, somehow, like, I guess, what has that made you feel?

01:47:31.380 - 01:47:42.090

And... Oh I can tell you this. Um, like everybody else, like everybody else of my generation, like everybody else after my generation, okay.

01:47:42.990 - 01:47:55.250

There is always a possibility is that the marriage won't work. It's, it just not, it's not like you don't love each other. It just sometimes is, as a person you grow apart; or, or your career

01:47:55.250 - 01:48:13.560

just, you know, kind of like, you know, goes two different directions and whatever reason. Okay, so when I was younger, I always had this fear, and Jimmy's a very wonderful person, he's very popular. And he's good looking. So, you know, I had

01:48:13.560 - 01:48:29.680

always this fear of like, “what if I just don't want to always have to compete with all this accomplished... what is a woman that, you know, that are his fans?” I mean, like, people look at me goes, that's Jimmy Lin's wife?

01:48:31.440 - 01:48:44.750

Or do I want to always have to make myself like, you know, look as beautiful as accomplished or, or play music as well? Or, or do I want to be myself? And, and, and forget about this whole thing, like, you know, there's a lot of stress

01:48:44.750 - 01:48:58.920

when you're married to a very successful person, right? So initially, I just say, I gotta, I gotta establish, establish myself, so that's why I got a fellowship. And I was very involved with my career.

01:48:58.920 - 01:49:13.490

And, and then five years into our marriage, you know, we were still childless. And that's kind of scary for a pediatrician and a physician, and I really, I really love kids. And so, so I decided that okay,

01:49:13.990 - 01:49:30.440

well, since I was still married, but I really, you know, need to put more effort into starting this, starting a family business. And so I kind of just turned down all the promotions and

01:49:32.190 - 01:49:44.060

switch to part-time. And, and then when I got pregnant, I was I was so happy. And when Lara was born, I took a

01:49:44.060 - 01:49:59.110

long time off. I took, I think I took six months off. And so I want to be with Lara. And I feel like as a pediatrician, I'm preaching mothers to spend more time

01:49:59.110 - 01:50:13.840

with the kids. To bind with the kids and to be the most important person in their lives, in their very young lives. I cannot not do that myself. That would that would just be devastating for me as a person,

01:50:13.840 - 01:50:26.300

as a mom, and also for my kids, but I was fortunate enough that I can work part-time. And I was financially secure enough, I don't have

01:50:26.750 - 01:50:42.690

to, you know, say take all the promotions, which do come with a higher salary, so forth and more power, of course, into consideration. I would just, all I have to do is I just want to prove that Indian professor,

01:50:43.190 - 01:50:59.490

that as a wife, as a mother, I can still work, and then do a darn good job. And, you know, that kind of simplified my conflict in terms of, you know, keeping a career and keeping a family.

01:51:00.480 - 01:51:16.140

Person... I you know, that I think the most important is I believe in Jimmy so much, I believe in his, in his music; I believe in him in as as a person and as a husband. So that makes makes that decision actually quite easy.

01:51:17.750 - 01:51:33.320

But had I married, had I marriage being a little bit rocky, insecure or, or Jimmy is less supportive of my career, I'm not so sure I will feel that confident.

01:51:34.640 - 01:51:50.410

That to give up my career as a career-wise. Does it make sense? To me like, not like, oh, I have to say, "Okay, I want to be I want to be the head of my

01:51:50.770 - 01:52:05.100

department. And I want to be next I want to be the medical director," and so forth. I had that in me when I was younger, there were when I became a mother and realized that ambition will create a lot of conflict.

01:52:05.990 - 01:52:19.110

And will actually probably force me to make a decision to pick your career versus your family. And why do I want to put myself in that position? No. So I chose a career

01:52:19.500 - 01:52:36.260

path that I will be very proud of what I do. And what I do is important for me and my patients, things that maybe other colleagues can do, cannot do. They cannot see patients for free, they cannot spend three hours with one

01:52:36.260 - 01:52:49.960

patient, and getting— and charging for 15 minutes’ visit and that kind of stuff. I can do it. And it gives me great fulfillment as a physician. Yeah, why not?

01:52:52.510 - 01:53:07.500

Wow, that's so heartwarming and inspiring to hear, especially like last interview, like speaking of how you and Jimmy met. And now like in this interview, we get to hear like all the behind the scenes stories and all the

01:53:07.500 - 01:53:25.720

support and bonding between you two, that was just so beautiful. Thank you. And I guess as someone who is so accomplished, and as you also said, you have very high expectations for yourself, as a first generation immigrant,

01:53:26.520 - 01:53:44.600

have like the model minority myth and like for a lot of Asian, the Asian, the imposter syndrome, has that been part of something that you felt that you dealt with in your– in your life? What is the syndrome?

01:53:45.250 - 01:54:00.620

You will have to explain that to me. What is that? I see. Yeah, it's like having a too much of a high expectation and always feel like inferior to the expectation

01:54:00.790 - 01:54:12.940

in terms of... I think my– maybe my daughter has that. I don't have it. Okay, I tell you this. I don't have a high expectation for myself. I mean, my parents have high expectation for myself.

01:54:13.600 - 01:54:24.020

As I say, I thought, “oh, I want to be a piano teacher.” And everybody looked at me like, “You'll be piano teacher? Hahaha.” You know, like, nothing against a piano teacher. They just think well, “you don't play piano that well.” Like you better

01:54:24.020 - 01:54:34.500

do something else. And that is not a very confident building. I don't think right? I mean, that's a confidence. It's like I have a very realistic

01:54:34.500 - 01:54:43.910

expectation for myself. I want, I have, I have high aim. But I have, but I also know reality. I can aim high. But if I

01:54:43.910 - 01:54:57.730

don't reach it, so what? Right, I mean, I am not gonna jump off the bridge and kill myself. But speaking of yeah, I guess like for example, my daughter, you know, being an Asian.

01:54:58.200 - 01:55:11.410

When we first, moved to to Houston, she went to an all... a nice little private elementary school because a friend, another friend's daughter goes there, and then they they’re– they’re play dates.

01:55:11.740 - 01:55:24.970

So say oh, yeah, go to school with Naomi. And so it turned out that she was pretty pretty much the only Chinese girl at the school for a long time. And so everybody would

01:55:24.970 - 01:55:42.310

just say, "Oh, she must be good at math." And oh my god, my poor Lara, she cannot do math. She really does not like math. So that I think will be probably more stereotype for her, she- she had that

01:55:42.370 - 01:55:55.920

pressure or that or like, everybody said, "Oh, so years who Jimmy Lin's daughter so, so you must play an instrument. What instrument do you play?" And she plays none. She's really, she basically said, "Mommy, I don't like classical music."

01:55:57.840 - 01:56:09.120

And then we're like, go play guitar, go do something else. Go play electric guitar or something, whatever pleases you, whatever makes you happy. You know, you don't have to do piano or violin.

01:56:09.220 - 01:56:22.440

I mean, she did take piano violin lessons while she was little, just to so that she'll know she likes it or not. But you know, nothing we will force her to. But I can see

01:56:22.440 - 01:56:31.510

how she, she has that. I, I may or may not have that. I don't... I think I'm too old. Not too old.

01:56:31.740 - 01:56:48.130

I think I'm established enough, by the time I moved to the United States that I didn't have to go through that. Yeah, actually, just for the sake of like, information, I guess I just looked up

01:56:48.170 - 01:57:02.120

imposter syndrome. It's like describing someone's feeling of severe and inade- inadequacy and self doubt that can leave people fearing that they will be exposed as a fraud; and usually in their work lives.

01:57:02.220 - 01:57:21.040

It can affect anyone regardless of the success. That can happen if you grew up in a society say for example, again, as I said, if if if La– like Lara, or if Lara

01:57:21.040 - 01:57:40.100

grew up in, in in America during a period of time when there is a comp– where there's a fierce competition then and a group of people will want to make the other group of people feel inferior, intimidation, or exclusive

01:57:40.400 - 01:57:56.170

exclusion; and yes, you will have that. Okay. And I see that actually in my in some of my classmates the medical school also in college for example, I

01:57:56.170 - 01:58:08.940

remember I have... I take that back I was the only Chinese girl for sure. But in medical school there were two other Chinese boys. Okay, so my mom had high hopes that I'll you know be friend one of them. At least I'll come

01:58:08.940 - 01:58:26.010

home with a Chinese boyfriend, right? Duh. But those two Chinese boys, they probably know I think that have that the imposter syndrome in that, they refuse to eat any Chinese food. I don't I could care less.

01:58:26.180 - 01:58:43.010

I love good food. They only date white women. Okay, they don't they pretend they don't speak or they don't understand Mandarin. Okay, and– and they were steering very clear of me. Like they would not date me.

01:58:43.060 - 01:58:55.110

The only guy who actually showed interest in me was the Korean boy. Okay, and– and I was like so shocked that I had to find a Korean girl for her; and they got married of course later, you know like my good classmate, my

01:58:55.110 - 01:59:10.540

good friend; but I wasn't going to marry a Korean man because I don't know. I mean like if I have a you have to deal with one culture already now, I have a two cultures and live in America, I have a three cultures in one

01:59:10.590 - 01:59:22.780

family. I thought I was gonna go crazy. So yeah, I can see that but but but I don't think I will say that the big difference between the

01:59:22.780 - 01:59:35.760

graduate students, the- the Asian graduate students in America and the American Born Chinese, or the– the undergraduate students in America that they will have a different degrees of imposter

01:59:41.500 - 01:59:57.210

syndrome. Thank you. And I guess as we are approaching the end of the interview and as a Houston American Archive and like, how has Houston been like part of your life? And like, like what what are your hopes for the Houston's

01:59:57.750 - 02:00:08.970

Asian community? I must say that, you know, I, I loved Atlanta. I did, you know. And when I moved to New York City, it was a

02:00:09.080 - 02:00:19.450

very hard adjustment. I was a little older then; I was almost 30. And I'm coming from a culture as friendly as you

02:00:19.450 - 02:00:33.230

know, you know, Atlanta to a no nonsense, everyone is in a hurry, like, you know, dog-eat-dog kind of competitiveness in New York City was a big shock.

02:00:34.250 - 02:00:52.240

I, I probably said I became a New Yorker after 911. You know, and I see the resilience and the competence and, and, and actually, the true strength of the New York. So I was a diehard New Yorker by then, by the time I moved to Houston.

02:00:52.870 - 02:01:06.160

And I, we moved to Houston because Jimmy and I wasn't sure you know if that was something that he would wanted to, or if he would like to do for a long period of time. And so I bought the smallest house I can find.

02:01:06.610 - 02:01:19.100

I'm not joking, it was so small, that now I regret in a way. I bought a house, I figured all the furniture from New York will fit in. So by the time I moved back to New York, I don't have to sell anything. That's how small my house is,

02:01:19.170 - 02:01:35.780

okay. And which is unusual and difficult to find in– in Houston, if you can imagine. To- to- to 12 years later, 13 years, I realize that the Houstonians are really one of the kind.

02:01:36.400 - 02:01:49.990

And they're different from my– my dear family friends in Atlanta, but they are actually just as dynamic and welcoming and diverse.

02:01:50.520 - 02:02:04.880

It may not be apparent on the surface. But underneath it, this is a very remarkable city as well. In terms of the cult– support for cultures, music, and Rice community has been

02:02:05.020 - 02:02:22.150

incredible. We met so many wonderful friends at Rice. And I reconnected with a– with a high school classmate, who is actually a Physics professor at Rice.

02:02:22.630 - 02:02:35.590

So you know, I was like, “oh my god, you know, like, you know, like circle around the world,” you know, “once and then and like, Oh, my, oh, my god was that 40 years later, we were reconnected in a way.” It's funny and, and I met

02:02:36.450 - 02:02:52.940

Anne, and I met oh, you know, Lydia, and I met... So so many people. I don't want to name names here. I think it's a bit silly. But I think

02:02:52.940 - 02:03:06.090

that the COVID actually has also made, you know, if I– if I– if I may say it I, 911, you know, made me to a New Yorker; I think that COVID somehow made me into a true Houstonian. I think.

02:03:06.160 - 02:03:20.720

In many ways, in that the Taiwan or the Chinese community here, how they extend the help for each other in this very difficult

02:03:21.160 - 02:03:39.730

time. And how Houston stand out to be so blue among all this sea of redness, and, and, and, the– the– the competence that rise and the careful planning, and the

02:03:39.760 - 02:03:53.960

Rice community to– to keep COVID in check, you know. I have two— have my daughter and my husband there. And so they go there every day that I actually made me feel

02:03:53.960 - 02:04:08.340

so much more like if Houstonian now then either otherwise. Where I haven't been able to go back to New York since March, and that's also another you know, because my practice was put on hold, and that you know, the

02:04:08.340 - 02:04:20.410

travel ban and all that. And– and also they didn't want me to get sick from traveling and also from the patients who cough a lot basically. So that was that. Yeah.

02:04:21.370 - 02:04:35.470

So I am a Houstonian now and– and– and be a true Houstonian I started to think, oh my god, why am I such a small house? I need a bigger house. Well, I hope it's a good market to think about that now.

02:04:36.820 - 02:04:47.350

Wow. Thank you so much, Dr. Lin, for this wonderful talk and learning more about you, who is now Houstonian and who has some such wonderful

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inspirations and wonderful contributions to the Asian American community as you represent as a writer, as a doctor, as a pediatrician. And a supporter of the music, bringing creativity to Houston.

02:05:04.830 - 02:05:19.460

Well, thank you. I forgot to mention, I forgot to mention that, you know, I sort of met a lot of, you know, again, colleagues and musician, music colleagues, medical colleagues and friends in Houston. You know, I've been here long, long,

02:05:19.460 - 02:05:30.530

long, almost as long as New York now. And when Jimmy started the Taipei Music Academy Festival, in Taiwan in 2019.

02:05:32.840 - 02:05:49.100

The first thing that came to my mind is, I got to have my– my friends in Houston help me out. Okay. And then. And so I was asking for advice and financial support, and, you know, to raise

02:05:49.970 - 02:06:04.620

scholarships for Rice music students to go to the festival and to other students, American students to go to the festival. To make a long story short, and I realized that Taipei and Houston are

02:06:04.750 - 02:06:18.430

actually the first sister cities with each other. There's a Houston Taipei society; it was established in 1961. And Taipei was the first sister city of Houston. And Houston is the first

02:06:18.770 - 02:06:29.820

sister city to Taipei. So I didn't know that. I was like, “oh, that's interesting, right.” But because of that, Houston Taipei Society decided that they will adopt the TMF or Taipei

02:06:29.820 - 02:06:43.350

Music Festival. So they– they started to fundraise for us on behalf of the Rice students. This is why I say the facemask made became a true Houstonian.

02:06:43.740 - 02:07:01.060

And their generosity and their enthusiasm was like, beyond belief. You know, about a hundred, I don't know, they, they basically raised enough scholarship to send all the students from America to

02:07:01.060 - 02:07:14.800

Taiwan. This is how incredible it was. And without that I don't think that the festival will even take place. Right? And the secondly when, the second year, the second festival, it was the pandemic, you gotta be kidding me.

02:07:15.860 - 02:07:33.750

You, you, you have the second festival. And you cannot have– you cannot have it happen because of the pandemic; that will be the end of it. You will be the... So, so to make a long story short, that, you know, the Houston support

02:07:34.800 - 02:07:52.290

was so crucial in making the TMF happen the second year. But make sure that the musicians get the– the necessary COVID tests, the visas, the– the scholarships.

02:07:54.410 - 02:08:09.570

And I– and I realized that you know what, that's it. That's that, that kind of, though, embrace the whole world. The Houstonian generosity is— it's made Houston

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so special. And– and– and that's why I say that– that kind of made me become a true Houstonian because of this experience, you know that.

02:08:22.760 - 02:08:37.320

I hope that answers your question and added something that I felt that I wanted to be, you know, be on the record. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your generous— being an integral

02:08:37.390 - 02:08:49.440

part of Houston. And we're so lucky to have you and Jimmy here. Thank you. Thank you. And I guess, do you have any last words for the archive as of like

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for, like Lara's daughter, I mean, children and Lara... And like... Children of Lara? I say, you know, for those of you in the future, listen to this.

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Don't get intimidated by your parents. I think that if you find– if you find that you're in a situation that is difficult, challenging and all

02:09:17.360 - 02:09:35.730

that— there is always a silver lining in there. Whether it’s a new immigrant who didn't speak English, and– and try to, you know, find their way to a college— a very good college that is; or a great— a new

02:09:35.730 - 02:09:51.070

graduate from a great university and come to work in market that’s like non-existence... Don’t worry! You know, you will always find that– that particular– that particular challenge will– will

02:09:51.300 - 02:10:08.000

if you face it positively, that– that will perhaps be the turning point of your life. Whether you realize you have to make the society better than what your parents have left you with; or that– that you have to rethink, you know,

02:10:08.340 - 02:10:17.920

what do you expect yourself and what the society needs of you and make adjustments accordingly. You know, embrace it.