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Today is Friday, February 8th, 2019. We’re interviewing Dr. Ching-Hwa Kiang for the Houston Asian American Archive in her office on Rice University campus.

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My name is Priscilla Li. And I’m Amber Lu. Okay. So the first question is uh, where were you born? Uh, I was born in uh, Taipei, Taiwan. Uh, it was a busy, big city.

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Uh, now it’s, uh, a lot of people. Uh, so uh, but it was very different when I was born. Yeah. Okay. Um, what kinds of foods did you grow up eating?

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Uh, Chinese food, mostly. And my mother’s a very good cook, so we eat, uh, a variety of uh, things. Sometimes, uh, from different cuisine, but mostly

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Chinese. Okay. Is it a specific provin—specific cultural food from a province in China? Uh, because we uh, we live in Tai—Taiwan, uh, there’s a lot of influence on Taiwanese

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food, but it’s um, probably mostly food from the south, uh, like China, like Fujian, um, s—perhaps some

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Cantonese. Occasionally we uh, eat food, like, from the north, and focusing on like dumplings, uh, noodles, um, pretty much all—and over, and… but we’ll have some, uh, proportion of Taiwanese

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influence. Did you ever have to help your mom out with cooking? Mm, not too much. My mother is very good. And also we have uh, um, helpers

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to—to help us. Yes. Uh, what kinds of cultural traditions did you celebrate? Uh, Chinese of course, the most important is the Chinese New Year. And uh, so all the big festivals

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like uh, Mid-Autumn, uh, Festival. And uh, dragon boat race. The—so these are the big ones, and also other small ones.

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Um, pretty mu—pretty much throughout the year, mostly with associated with some food. Certain festivals, we eat some food, so. Uh, what school did you go to for elementary school?

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Uh, I went to uh, Dongmen, uh, Elementary School, it’s a pretty big school. We have a lot of students, I remember, lots of uh, classroom with a big stadium in the middle, and then we would run

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around. Um, and then middle and high school? So these are, uh, the schools in Taipei, middle school is uh, Ren-Ai Middle School. High school is Taipei Girls, First Girls High School.

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So uh, at the high-school level, it—some schools who separate boys and girls, so this is all-girls high school. And did you have to test into high school? So until—from middle to high school, yes.

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So we, Taipei has a test. So people want to come to, uh, high schools in Taipei, need to take the exam, uh, for Taipei high schools. And then we pretty much rank

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from the first to last, and the first get to ch—choose first. They fill out the first choice, second, third. Yes, okay. Um, and did you have a favorite subject or teacher? Um, at school I like, uh, chemistry

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and physics. Uh, mm, math maybe. I think physics is probably my favorite subject, but uh, chemistry teacher is a very old lady. She’s very, um,

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somewhat entertaining, but she’s also ins—inspirational. Okay. In what way? Well, she uh, just—she liked to say something, and say yes or no.

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And then make us to think about the problem instead of just telling us all the, the right thing and the wrong things. And um, also she was relatively old, but she seem—and she’s very small,

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and she’s when she was standing, or possibly sitting at the podium, we could barely see her, like, her head above the table. But she’s full of energy. So, it’s, it

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was uh, it was just fun, uh, to take—uh, go to her class, yeah. And what drew you to physics? Like, in high school, and you said you enjoyed

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physics. Yes, just uh, the subject and the, the problems are very interesting. And also the teacher, um, was uh, looks just like a, a very good scholar.

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The way he, he, he taught us and the way he, um, presented the problem. Because field of physics is very serious, and very, um, uh, some mysterious, but it’s a lot

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of, uh, truth going on there, and a lot of, uh, insight we can, uh, look into. It’s telling us the, uh, the secret of the world, the, the universe.

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Um, did your parents, like, have a science background, or you just…? Uh, my father was a chemical engineer. Um, but he passed away

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when I was little. So it was not so much from the day-to-day influence. I think that it’s just, um, perhaps at school, somehow I liked that better than others.

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Maybe just because I was not very good at memorizing all the, the history and all the things that requires a lot of, um, memorization, and I decided to go into science.

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Um, and what was like, the atmosphere like at Taipei—er, the high school that you went to? The high school, it was fun. It was all girls, we can do a lot of girl things. And uh, specifically, high

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school, I joined the marching band. And that was—uh, it requires a lot of work, it needs to be dedicated. And uh, to some extent, we didn’t really have a choice. And at that time, the, the band was actually

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picked by the school teacher. Like the top three to five percent people just have to go. And then we were assigned an instrument.

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And so—but that was um, a big deal in our high school. We—and have to, eventually, um, so we have three years in high school. The, the second year, uh, we joined the band, and

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the third year, the smaller group of the band form a wind ensemble, so we practice a lot every day. And we were able to skip some classes. The classes deemed not—considered not very, um,

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not super critical. For example, PE sometimes, and then we can go practice at that time. So we spent a lot of time and then, with our friends together, and then

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go and do a lot of things. So it was fun, and then obviously, we, we have a—our band, we have a competition, we always won the first, the high school, at least in Taipei, so

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it was fun. What instrument did you play? Uh, I played, uh, cornet, so it’s a trumpet. So it’s like a first trumpet.

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So, and I was the—basically the soloist trumpet, and every year we play different, um, musical pieces. So it depends on the

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composition of the band, and my year, is—I was particularly good. So we played uh, the music we play had some, uh, solo for me, and then very often it’s focusing on the trumpet. So it was a lot of fun, but it

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was a lot of, uh, responsibility for me. ‘Cause if I didn’t perform well, then the whole thing sounds awful. But then, because I have a, uh, cornet, it’s actually a different color and slightly different shape of

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trumpet, so people recognize me, that it’s a little more orange-ish than the yellow-ish. So yeah. How did you balance, like, school work and practicing? Um, I think for a while, I didn't really fo—focusing too much on the schoolwork,

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practicing a lot. But uh, I think the school work wasn't too intense until you go to the very last year, the third year, right before college. So I think, um, I was doing okay, um, still the

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top, but I think after, uh, so it’s like a few months, a couple months before the college entrance exam. At that time the, the band thing was all o— over, the wind ensemble.

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No more practice, and then we focus on the studying for the test, so we did all—all day with my friends. Because at that time, there’s just one college entrance exam. So it doesn’t matter what you do, um, the whole, eh, school

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year, the grades doesn’t matter. Just that one test that it determines everything. So I think that’s, I think probably in June or July. Yeah, so two days test.

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And it covers most, like—a broad range of subjects? Right, I think it’s six subjects, so math, physics, uh, chemistry. So depending on—and there were

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four categories. So if you choose the science, math, uh, physics, chemistry, and then I think English and Chinese and some kind of political thing, so. Okay. Um, so how was uh, like, applying to college like?

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Right, so that, as I said, was uh, very stressful. So two days, uh, you better not be sick in those two days. And, and you just have to prepare everything just for that.

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So uh, I guess in between there’s, um, a lot of studies, but I guess it’s not every day, you know any feedback, you see something.

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But you just have that one goal, you have to get everything out on those two days, right. Um, so how was the process of applying to college? So, for that, for us, we just, uh, I think we register,

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and then once the exam is over, we ranked from first to last, and of course the first one, you—we fill out the, the form to uh, have your first choice, second choice, or third choice.

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So if you’re number one, you get to choose first, and then from there, right. So if you’re, uh, number thousand, then some, uh…school, or actually department, the—is the—is already full, then you can’t choose, you don’t get your first or second choice.

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You get whatever, yeah. So, and—but for us, one thing is we actually have to choose the department, uh, basically major, at that time. That was a little bit difficult, because it’s

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hard for us to, to know the differences, especially you have high school, which is learn physics and chemistry, and…in college you have engineering versus science. Nobody even knows what the difference is.

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So very often, we just look at the previous score, so where—what’s the lowest score you need to get into this department. And they will have a list. Very often, we just copy that list, with a little bit adjustment with our own

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interest. So yeah, so usually we don’t know what we get into until we get to school. And then the thing is, once we get to school, it’s very difficult to change.

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It’s…and it’s not too common. So if you switch major, you have a brand new class you need to get in, and then they already know each other. So it’s, it’s uh, it’s better to choose

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wisely bef—beforehand. Okay. So what were your, what were your choices? Right, so I, at that time, I chose engineering, um, but uh…I think uh, for us,

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we could study different things. Uh, we do have requirements we need to fulfill, but in the end, uh, I, uh, I study things, I took classes from different, um, disciplines.

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So that actually allows me, uh, when I apply for graduate school, that was a little bit better. Okay. So what college did you choose in the end? Right so I went to, uh, CalTech.

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And that was uh…I guess myself, I was a little bit surprised. I didn’t expect to get in, because, uh, we haven’t have, uh, people to get in, like, several years before me, I

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didn’t know anybody who got in. But then, uh, there wasn’t. I decided to go. Um, so I really didn’t know

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much, uh, what I was getting into. So that was, that—my friend told me I was very brave. She say, even she got in, she wouldn’t go.

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It was just uh…just seemed, uh, too uh, intimidating, I say. So um, after—or, can I ask you about your immigration, like, coming to the U.S.?

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Uh, what about that? Like how you felt? Um, so I came, uh, to school, uh, for graduate school, directly. So I went to the PhD program at

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CalTech, and so that’s how I got here. Um, basically, uh, got a ticket and packed my belongings, so here I am. And it was a little bit different because the school was very

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small. We don’t—we didn’t have a big, um, Chinese Student Association, mostly like, Taiwanese. It was—the association is separate, with people from Taiwan, people from mainland China.

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So from Taiwan, I think we only had about ten total. So we didn’t have a major operation, who pick up who, and then helped who, just uh—so we got there, I got there, on my own.

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And eventually get to know some of them, but there were so few, and each one, I think several of them have family already. So they didn’t really have much time to join these student

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associations, so we kind of, um…in our year, we have, uh, quite a few, so we kind of get together, help each other. But we’re all new. Okay. What surprised you about the U.S.

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when you came? Um, uh…let’s see. I guess you can name, like, one of your first encounters, like, something memorable when

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you first came here. Uh…I’m not sure. Uh, I don’t know if there’s like, one incident of, uh, things. Um, I think

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uh, even though I, I learned, uh, English, and then tried to have, like, practice it, conversation, and then listening comprehension, still uh, trying to understand

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people is not so totally easy, not everything. And so trying to watch TV, trying to learn something—I think one thing is, uh, surprised, I think, if we watch local news, they’re talking about things very local, like,

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uh, something happened on the street, a cat was, like, stuck in a tree, and then—but uh, I think before when we read news, probably it’s also like, cable news is talking about like, the whole country or the whole world.

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So it’s a little bit different, versus it’s just this town you’re in, so we didn’t know. Not sure what’s going on, and…also I think people talk about—I remember someone told me, like uh,

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the two things people like to talk about, and it’s hard for us to understand, one is uh, driving, because I think U.S. is very big, a lot of people, like, driving is different. Like, driving in a small city is—busy city is very

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different from driving long-distance across country. And then other things is politics. So at first, we don’t really understand, uh, the system, and then who’s fighting what.

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And also we don't, uh, I didn’t recognize the names, so it’s hard to follow why this person talk or why—who and represent what. Yeah. Okay. Um, and what was

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it—like, what was the—your lab like? Um, I guess like, the demographics, were there mostly, uh, men in your lab at CalTech? Right, mostly, uh, we, I think we—even the group

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I was in, I think there was another girl, I think out of maybe six, uh, people, seven, I don’t quite remember. There were, there were a few, but certainly were, were the minority.

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But I was used to that, I was in the science, engineering, we’re always the minority. Not so isolated that that was the only one. I’ve heard some department, it’s like, it’s like one. But we only have a few, therefore, the, the girls are

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closer together, because a small group. Yeah. Did you have any questions? Yeah, so what did you—what kind of work did you do in the lab? Uh, what, what subject did you

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study, and what research questions were you working on? Uh, at school or…? In CalTech. Yes, uh…I study a few different things, but eventually, uh, what get me

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interested, most interested, was actually I went to, uh, during the visiting, um, as a visiting scientist and doing research at IBM Almaden Research Center in the north, uh, the Bay Area.

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And so uh, my thesis is mostly about that. So that was, that was very interesting, because we starting—at that time we were trying to make, uh, metal- encapsulated fullerenes.

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Uh, it was some history there. But anyway, eventually we discover single-wall carbon nanotubes. So that, that was a very, um, interesting story, and that was unexpected.

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Because uh, that was the time, um, IBM was experiencing a hard time, so they have a new CEO. And they say, “Everybody now go to do this and head,” so it’s something useful for

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uh, IBM business, at that time it’s mainly computer and hard drive, and all kind of thing. And then…but we’re in the physics, uh, division, trying to do fundamental science, and my mentor,

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Don Bethune, who’s a great mentor for me, um, he…was uh, working on fullerenes already, which was uh…so C-60, it’s 60 carbon form into a soccer ball. That was uh, kind of new at that time, but this one

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eventually was awarded Nobel Prize in 1996, actually to Rick Smalley here at Rice, and then to Bob Curl, and uh, um…uh, I think Harry. So three, three of them.

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Um, but anyway, at that time, we were thinking, uh, if we have uh, C-60, and then also there’s C-70, and have different basic cage-like structure, maybe we put, um, magnetic,

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uh, metal into—can make the smallest head. So uh, actually, disc. Uh, we can put on the disc, the smallest unit. And so we add uh, cobalt, iron, nickel,

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we try these magnetic elements. And then, so, the case, especially cobalt for us, and later on people found all others. And I would say probably, instead of uh, making

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metal encapsulated in the cage, the metal became a catalyst. So that was kind of unexpected finding, and then they catalyze these single-wall carbon nanotube, so it would grow uniform, just single-wall carbon nanotube.

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It’s very long and thin. So at that time, um, the fullerene was discovered, and then multi-wall carbon nanotubes was discovered. Um, without going into the details.

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And then that was a big deal, and then—but we saw these long things. We were not sure what it was, and then could that be a carbon nanotube, but they don’t look the same as the multi-wall.

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But eventually we characterize it enough, we know it’s the single-cell carbon nanotubes. And IBM to file a patent, and um…and then uh, I think because the patent was a little delayed, and we submit the paper, and then there was another one, was

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similar, so I think, uh…I think Nature get—got us a review right away, and eventually publish it back-to-back with the other paper. So that was, that was pretty exciting.

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It was like, if we’re one day late, we may not be able to make it. So that was a, um, very interesting time at IBM, and there were a, a different line of managers, they’re very support—supportive of these basic research.

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And they’re, um, they’re very excited about these, and then—so that, that came out, and then we have a lot of press coverage. I think New York Times, and Washington Post, you know, several things, and eventually we got a patent.

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And at that time people didn’t know what it was. And we actually got the material patented. So anyway, so, but that was a long

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time ago. I think that—the patent now is already over 20 years. So, but anyway, uh, it was a very different time. And then the discovery,

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uh…it, it made my uh, research focus more on the nanotubes than—originally I thought it was going to be on the fullerenes. The, the, the, the carbon cages. We did have something eventually, encapsulate some metal into different cages.

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But then the, this project took off, and eventually my thesis is mostly about this. And that was a very exciting time. Um, how did you get into academia?

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Like what, what drove your career path? So after uh, uh, my PhD on, on this, and that was pretty much the beginning of the nano, um, nano

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research, I think. Perhaps nanotechnology, but I’m not even sure this word was u—being used. And ev—actually, in fact, at that time, I’d talk to people, some people ask, “Do you think nano is going to

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sustain, or it’s just going to be something and then it’ll go away in a few years?” Now we see nano is every—everywhere, and then even some department change the names, include the nano. Um, but uh, at

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that time, I just saw this new and interesting—I was just hoping to do more new, interesting things. And so f—the best place for me to do that is to continue to do some postdoc and then have

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postdoc training, so I did a year postdoc at MIT. And then somehow because the things I did were somewhat academic and I just applied to a professorship. I mean, I think maybe I did look at some companies, but

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usually uh, I didn’t really go in to interview any companies, but probably look at the campus recruiting, talk to people a little bit. Um, but mostly, uh, still mostly

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research. So I think I was thinking about doing research, just—it’s like continuation of the graduate study, and…I’m not sure I absolutely have to do that, but eventually I got a job, and then I just continued to do it.

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That’s what happened. Um, so you mentioned your mentor—I forget, was he at IBM? Yes I think the, the one—yeah, I have several mentor, uh, in my career. Of course, like, at CalTech,

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uh, I have my thesis advisor, um, Bill Goddard, he, he’s a theorist. And then, but my, uh, so—my research is mostly in,

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in experiments. So that's the majority of my accomplishment. So, Don Bethune at IBM, he’s, he’s great, and then so we work out pretty

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well. And I was able to, to do things, those were brand new things for me, to start learning there and get the uh, result. And so your first job, was, was it here at Rice?

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Right. First, uh, real job is here at uh, in the uh, physics department, that’s where I am now. And that was a really, um, exciting time in uh, uh—so nano was kinda new.

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And I did some nano, and also physics, that was the time people liked to do bio. So I also try some, uh, biological physics. Uh, so I kinda like to do new things, and I don’t want

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to, uh, work on the same topic over and over for too long. So I, I feel I know how to do nano, and I, I want to see biological physics, uh, where it’s going. I try different things.

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So it was uh, pretty exciting, so now I start here, doing single-molecule, now doing— and then after a few years, now moving on to single-cell, uh, biological physics.

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So can you tell us a little bit about single-molecule and single-cell? Like, what was the field like when you came into it, and what are the fields like now? Right, so uh, single-molecule, when I started, that was basically

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uh—as experimental biological physicist, that was like one of the hot—hottest topics. It still kind of is, but it’s not, like, at that time it’s almost, that’s what you need to do if, if you’re, uh,

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going to be doing that. And then because that’s, uh, for biological things, so physics we like to do—go to things, the smallest possible, isolate everything,

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and biological, that’s pretty much the smallest unit; if you, if you break down even smaller, then they’re all different. So single-molecule, and then um, we’re not, uh, focusing on the reactions, we want to focus

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on their, like, physics, so we’re looking at the force, energy, and stretching them. Um, and then, so there were, there was a growing field, and then, then a

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lot of groups were doing it. And then eventually, um…it was very popular, and I think—so…a few years ago, the chemistry Nobel Prize awarded to

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some single-molecule—not the type of single-molecule I’m doing, but I think this last year, 2018, the physics Nobel Prize, it just give to single-molecule. Uh, basically, the force spectroscopy.

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The type of things I think is like the, the most exciting, and now it’s something would—tell us something about physics of biological system. And then, so, and then the field’s moving, and also, I mean it’s

00:32:58.220 - 00:33:07.220

still, single-molecule’s still very active, and then—but then like, the in-between molecules and cells. So now moving on to

00:33:07.220 - 00:33:19.550

single cells, and now people doing it and then the people doing molec—measuring that in the cells, on the cells, and then working on the force in the cell. So I think that’s the future.

00:33:21.060 - 00:33:40.210

Yeah. Um, what did you think about Houston when you first came? Uh, so I, I came from California, so Houston to us…uh, I think one thing is people talk about

00:33:40.210 - 00:33:54.180

traffic, and then they say, “Oh, this area, sometime is some traffic.” So we think, Okay, if you call this traffic, obviously it’s not too bad, compared to California. Then like, the Los Angeles area, every—

00:33:54.250 - 00:34:05.610

every day everywhere, it’s all traffic. So, but I think the traffic has changed in over…last 10, 15 years in Houston. It’s some, but still not too bad.

00:34:05.610 - 00:34:20.960

Uh, it’s still tolerable. And I think so kind of convenient, uh, Houston, the greater Houston area, is big, but just within the, the, like, the Rice and downtown, there are

00:34:20.960 - 00:34:40.340

a lot of things like the zoos and museum, you can go to easily without spending too much time, and the traffic. So, and they’re not the biggest, but given the time to travel, it’s, it’s easy to have, like, a short

00:34:40.340 - 00:34:55.470

trip. You see it’s actually more doable than some big things some distance away. So this, daily life is kind of easy, and anywhere we want to shop, and—or

00:34:56.880 - 00:35:13.030

go restaurants, they are reasonably easy in terms of traffic, not taking too long, and then different type of cuisine, you can pretty much get, um, here mostly. Um,

00:35:17.020 - 00:35:34.620

when you were applying to Rice, um, what did you like about the school that made you come? Um, uh, the, the campus of course is beautiful, and also I think the department. And it’s, I mean,

00:35:34.620 - 00:35:48.520

and then also the f—the field, and then the way, uh, people, uh, interact, made me feel really comfortable, and um, people just, uh, once we’re here, we’re…uh,

00:35:55.480 - 00:36:14.550

colleagues are, are friendly, were I mean—I think in general, physics is like that. It’s like within ourselves, we’re not, like…it’s, it’s uh, reasonably collegial. Right, so, within the same field, different field,

00:36:15.190 - 00:36:32.700

um, we’re just trying to um, solve things together, make things work better. Um, so…and then, I think the school is relatively small

00:36:32.700 - 00:36:49.030

and close, so it’s not a huge gap if you want to go out and meet with people outside the department. And distance-wise, and also, like, the size-wise. And I think because it’s the size, every department’s not

00:36:49.150 - 00:37:04.260

huge, and that—and then that make us, uh, it’s, uh, easier, and also somehow required to interact with people from different, uh, departments. Which in my field, doing biological physics, is good.

00:37:04.260 - 00:37:18.760

And also the Medical Center, it’s a big resources, I like to uh, collaborate with people in the Medical Center, working on medical-related physics. And that’s very convenient, and it’s very important, um, both

00:37:18.920 - 00:37:33.030

with—because the size and also location, uh, they’re pretty close, yeah. So can you tell us a little bit more about collaborating as an academic, like, what—like how do you

00:37:33.030 - 00:37:50.000

decide on a research question together, how do you reach out to other people? Uh, I think sometimes it’s by chance. It’s sometimes we just talk about something and then, uh, people say, “Well, you wanna try?” And uh, I think, uh, in my case,

00:37:50.110 - 00:38:06.560

very often is uh, it does not—when I do single-molecule, single-cell, it doesn’t—not cost a lot to just try it, so we, often we’ll just, “Oh, we’ll take a look at it.” And then if it turned out it’s something looks

00:38:06.560 - 00:38:19.090

interesting, then we’ll keep working on it, and then it’s a paper or, or working on proposals together, and then different things. Um, sometimes

00:38:19.090 - 00:38:35.870

we would get to know to people, we go to seminars, either they hear my talk, or I hear them talk, and then we talk about something, and then go from there. So can you tell us a little bit about your lab here at Rice?

00:38:36.180 - 00:38:51.600

Um, about—you don’t have to talk about, like, specifics, but like, about mentoring grad students and, uh, the such? So, uh, I use atomic-force microscopes to do single-molecule, so we have one instrument in the

00:38:51.600 - 00:39:11.180

basement because we need very stable, uh, ground, with, uh, without too much vibration at least. And so, then the lab needs to be clean and neat. Um…graduate student, I think most my graduate students are

00:39:11.320 - 00:39:26.990

pretty much all, like I said, except for one, they’re all, well, physics students, because it’s just the type of things we do is really research-oriented, not so much, uh, applied.

00:39:27.850 - 00:39:50.370

And so we need to think about some new problems, so that actually make, uh, require for me, and to actually work with the student, um…uh, like…I have to spend a lot of time with

00:39:50.720 - 00:40:05.870

each student, because um, usually our project is not like, “Okay, we’re all going to do this, we’re gonna measure that,” usually we say, “Okay, we want to see if we can do this, and we’ll see if we can understand this, so first we need to do some test

00:40:05.870 - 00:40:16.740

experiments, or some— design some experiment, see if this would work. And so when we—and then some—when we get things, we have to figure out what it means.

00:40:17.040 - 00:40:34.980

So that’s probably the hardest part, and then, so…and usually, we won’t have the whole set of data before we know, so we see some kind of initial things and say, “Okay, what could this tell us, and if this is what it’s gonna tell us, what kind of data do we need to confirm it?”

00:40:35.410 - 00:40:47.470

So that requires a lot of thinking for me and my students, and I don’t have something set like, you can just study this, it will tell you that, usually we’ll have to say, “Okay, this is where we try,” we look for

00:40:47.470 - 00:41:05.060

something, so I can tell them to look for something to get some idea. But I think this is kind of abstract for the students, so, um, uh…especially in the beginning of the project, it requires a lot of guidance

00:41:05.230 - 00:41:26.330

there. That’s why I work with the student very closely. And…and we just don’t have experiment you can just keep going and repeat and a lot of times without, like, sit down and then looking into like, where

00:41:26.820 - 00:41:45.100

does this project go, do we wanna, uh, keep doing this, is it gonna tell us something interesting? But very often, um—so, in my training with the student, I think one thing is important, is

00:41:46.530 - 00:42:02.120

they need to do the process exactly correctly. Because very often, whatever we measured is new. We don’t know what the result is going to be. So then we’re going to come up with a story based on the

00:42:02.120 - 00:42:13.870

results, so I have to make sure the, the way they’re doing is actually correct. So we usually have to repeat many times. So that’s, that’s uh, I’m pretty sure some labs

00:42:14.470 - 00:42:29.080

need to do that, but uh, for us, it’s esp—especially important, and then we have to check, did we actually get it ri-right? So sometimes we actually need to design experiment just to make sure what we got and we

00:42:29.220 - 00:42:40.640

think it is, is correct. So I also know you teach some undergraduate classes here at Rice. So are there some differences between teaching undergrads and graduate students?

00:42:42.180 - 00:42:58.250

Uh, yes, it’s different. I teach, uh, Introductory, uh, uh, Biological Physics, undergraduate, and then Biological Physics for, for graduate level. It’s similar, there are—in principles, both for people who are

00:42:58.250 - 00:43:13.230

going to be in the field, and also for people outside the field, want to see what that’s about. But I think the undergraduate and graduate, um, the focus are a little bit different.

00:43:14.190 - 00:43:30.520

And so for undergraduate course, actually, recently, I was just invited to give a talk in the, the AAPT, the uh, Association for Physics Teachers, talking about, uh, the class and teaching biological

00:43:30.520 - 00:43:46.950

physics. So uh, biological physics is a relatively new field, and so when I was started teaching about 15 years ago, I couldn’t find a good textbook for that. Now we have some textbooks, but it’s not necessarily

00:43:48.020 - 00:44:04.250

suitable for, uh, every class, because biological physics is not really well defined, even in terms of the topic, the things we teach. So some, they’re good, but it’s not necessarily what the

00:44:04.250 - 00:44:15.290

student want at Rice. There are some things they would like me to cover, so I kind of developed, over the years, developed my, uh, the class.

00:44:15.290 - 00:44:37.260

In the beginning I adopt some, um, text, but some of the students, uh…um, the textbooks are okay, just the, the topics may not be, uh, may not cover all the topics I want to cover. So now I put it, uh, the topics

00:44:37.260 - 00:44:53.940

together myself, and I think, and—I learn that you can teach student all these things, but bio’s a little bit different. If they want to learn a lot of basic bio, there are different bio courses, right?

00:44:54.330 - 00:45:07.620

So biological physics, in terms—in principle we need to focus on something slightly different, but since the student could be coming from all different disciplines, some people don’t have bio background, we still need to

00:45:07.620 - 00:45:20.950

teach them the basics. So I have to spend some time teaching the basic, the building blocks in bio. And then, so I’m trying to make them think, uh, both in

00:45:20.950 - 00:45:33.820

terms of principles, and what’s the—what do we want to think in biological physics that people probably don’t worry too much when they just learn biology or biochemistry?

00:45:34.850 - 00:45:55.560

And then, uh, because I think, uh, just I have some experienced people—because the bio topic is so diverse, and people learn that, and then they forget. Um, so it’s not like some physics subject you

00:45:56.060 - 00:46:11.290

get from more elementary to more advanced, eventually getting to, um, more uh, detailed. But this is, the separate—topics kind of separate, now we talk about this next chapter, we talk about something else.

00:46:11.830 - 00:46:28.740

So if they don’t remember, it’s, uh…and then it’s hard for them to remember if they just learn half the chapter, then next one, go to the next one. So now I’m trying to make—make them think the principle, and then, uh, I think a lot of things that—

00:46:29.050 - 00:46:43.860

since this field is new, a lot of discovery—covery are being made. Uh, I do let them think about and learn, how were the discovery made before in history, some major things.

00:46:43.860 - 00:46:58.510

The discovery of the structure of the DNA, and like, the, the invention of a certain, um, technique, like the single-molecule technique, what, what, what they’re—they wanna do, exactly what that’s good for, and then

00:46:58.600 - 00:47:09.420

when they discover these, uh, things, so, why wasn’t it discovered before? What is, at that time, what’s the time—what, what—what was so special, the timing?

00:47:09.420 - 00:47:23.280

Was that a technique, or was it something special they thought of, or um…perhaps, uh, something available at that time? So uh, for them, and then, like, them to think

00:47:23.560 - 00:47:37.600

about, um, if they would do it, what would they…how would they doing it, and what kind of advantage they have, right? Because what if the discovery is it is based on what they already

00:47:37.600 - 00:47:57.220

know, and then learn something new. So I hope to teach the student learn how to learn new things, and, uh, also, f—know their own advantage, what they’re best at, and to use

00:47:57.220 - 00:48:16.470

that to their advantage to make discovery. And for graduate level, the co—the concept is similar, but usually we have people from different discipline, like high-energy physics or astronomy, and they want to

00:48:16.520 - 00:48:29.240

learn something about bio. So, for graduate-level course, I can teach a little bit more into, like, the research type, um, also talk about some

00:48:30.440 - 00:48:47.730

topics. Um…it’s a little bit like what people discover, so if the background is like uh, condensed-metal particle physics, maybe they have some kind of background, they know something about bio, see if we

00:48:47.730 - 00:49:07.420

can relate that problem to the problem they already know. If they solve their problem, think the problem this way, and how do they look at this biological problem? So, overall, what is your favorite thing about being in academia?

00:49:08.120 - 00:49:20.850

Um, what do you value most about this field, I guess? I think it’s, uh, uh, the freedom, I would say. Um, we just need to have,

00:49:22.780 - 00:49:40.750

uh, well, we need to have, uh, the student and funding to do these, but uh, relatively speaking, we have, uh, freedom to choose the topic, and how much we wanna get into that,

00:49:41.230 - 00:49:59.900

and to what extent I want to understand this. And then, um, I think and also we get to talk with different people, have uh—if people in our field

00:50:00.970 - 00:50:15.180

will have, uh, will have a discussion about like, what this technique is uh, good for, and then what about the details that they improve in, and then talking to people from different discipline, and what type of

00:50:15.180 - 00:50:30.140

problem, uh, we can solve with what we measure. So, uh, mm, for example, if we talk with people from medical school,

00:50:30.600 - 00:50:46.060

they will tell us what kind of things they would like to know, the answers, and we think about what our technique can possibly measure that’s related to that. Not necessarily because we’re doing fundamental

00:50:46.610 - 00:51:01.960

research, we’re not going to say, “Oh, this is gonna, uh, tell you exactly what this patient is what,” but we can tell them some basic things about the things they have questions about, and they can think about

00:51:02.320 - 00:51:15.930

how to interpret it in terms of, uh, medical use and then patient-wise, that type of things. So that’s— that’s interesting, in learning something from various different systems, what kind of things they’re

00:51:16.000 - 00:51:32.050

learning about, and then, just um, for us, just be creative. We can only measure certain fundamental properties. How do we measure something that can tell us something that we can link that to what people

00:51:32.510 - 00:51:46.650

want to know? It’s not always straightforward, and sometimes it’s not even obvious when we start, and sometimes—but, uh, once we have the result, then we say, “Oh, that’s what it means,” and then we put it together, yeah. Um, do you feel

00:51:50.630 - 00:52:09.360

like you’ve ever been treated differently either because of your gender or your race in the physics field? Mm, I don’t really feel that way. Uh…perhaps I’m not particularly paying attention to that, so I

00:52:09.360 - 00:52:24.550

don’t really know. I think everybody’s different, and everybody is treated differently to some extent, and um, I guess my gender is different, and my race. And also I’m just different,

00:52:27.730 - 00:52:41.400

so…I don’t see, we don’t have enough for me to see a trend of anything. And I feel in general, they, because they know we’re—I mean, the female is the minority in our department, as most

00:52:41.400 - 00:53:00.170

engineering department, uh, they do, um, at least try to treat us, uh…kind, uh, I will say, if anything.

00:53:01.080 - 00:53:18.850

Um, but usually, I actually don’t feel the difference, right. Um, are you involved in the Houston Asian American community? Uh, Houston Asian community, um…uh, I’m the advisor

00:53:20.070 - 00:53:38.480

for, uh, the Rice Taiwanese Student Association. So that’s a group of people from Taiwan. It’s uh…and I think, um, what was, uh, there’s

00:53:38.720 - 00:54:01.270

um, Houston Chinese Faculty Association. So, um, and also I’m in some alumni associations, uh…usually we’ll try to get together to help young people, so they have these, uh,

00:54:02.500 - 00:54:15.950

association will try to organize things. Especially, like, for young people, like, career things or something. If I can advise some of the students, then I’ll try to, and if we have a chance to get together,

00:54:16.510 - 00:54:34.500

and then I’ll, uh, happy to offer my advice. Um, usually they have questions about—I think since they’re already here, they already know how to apply. Um, but usually it’s, uh, the next step, um, how do they

00:54:34.570 - 00:54:50.930

get the next job or something, like, the…their career planning. And um, I’ll offer my advice when I, when I can. So, what is usually your advice for these

00:54:53.150 - 00:55:08.240

students? Well, um, I think it depends on the people and what they wanna do, but…usually the first thing is try. I remember some student say, oh, they can’t find a job.

00:55:08.320 - 00:55:21.720

I said, if you send out résumé, after—before you send out a hundred résumés, don’t—don’t ask me anything. If you haven’t sent out a hundred, then it’s not surprising you haven’t got a job yet.

00:55:21.960 - 00:55:35.470

After you send out a hundred, you haven’t got a job—got an interview, got a job, then we can talk about it. So, the first thing is just you need to try, you can’t wait until the very last minute and then say, “Okay, I’m gonna get one.” I mean, you

00:55:35.470 - 00:55:46.880

probably can get some jobs, but just may not be the job you want. If you want one, you, you, you…of your choice, your dream

00:55:46.880 - 00:56:00.780

job, you just need to spend a lot of effort. I mean, there’s so many people looking for, uh, jobs; yes, there are also a lot of jobs. But, uh, maybe you’re good, but how do they know you’re good?

00:56:00.970 - 00:56:20.630

It’s not that easy. So, if…sometimes, uh…it’s also by chance. So you just have to try a lot. And also, uh, I think if they’re still in the time of preparation, I would say the evidence is

00:56:20.630 - 00:56:33.430

important. Like, you can say or you can do this, you can do that, you know this, you know that. They don’t know. It’s just like, when you read something, I haven’t read, people say I can do all these things, and they actually come in and they can’t do any of those.

00:56:33.890 - 00:56:49.570

So you have to have evidence, and the best evidence is, if you’re a graduate student, your paper, peer-reviewed paper. And then, most of the time, I told them, “What you learn at school, it’s…most likely it’s not gonna be

00:56:49.570 - 00:57:03.190

something you gonna be use for your job. Even in academics, I don’t nec—I don’t do the same thing as I do—did when I was a graduate stu— student. But it’s the method, like how to find a problem, how to

00:57:03.540 - 00:57:15.350

solve the problem, what do you do to try to solve this problem, this process is important. So if you have a paper, you have something as evidence, like, you can do it, that’s something you can show people.

00:57:15.810 - 00:57:28.680

I think that should make a difference in terms of looking for job. Not so much about this, they need to know you know how to do this in your paper, but you’re able to have a, a paper.

00:57:29.460 - 00:57:48.240

And of course, they also know what journals and what papers are better than others, so if you’re able to accomplish something big, then that’s a good, uh, selling point for you, versus you can say two, three pages of other things that

00:57:48.980 - 00:58:04.610

may or may not, uh, matter at all. So, and then they uh, write their CV, they need to limit the pages, and then, they should talk about important things, not so much about everything you have done.

00:58:05.830 - 00:58:19.990

If…really, it doesn’t tell people one way or another, uh, you’re going to be suitable for the jobs or not. And also the personal statement, and yes, you can talk about your own stories, but make sure whatever the stories you talk about has

00:58:19.990 - 00:58:35.380

something to do with how—what you’re suitable for this position, this school if you want to go to the graduate school, med school, or, uh, the job, why you’re suitable for this job. Eventually, it needs to lead to—into that,

00:58:36.430 - 00:58:55.300

not just, like, chatting about your, your background so much. Um, have you gone back to Taiwan? Yes, I have. Uh, I think when I was, uh, in graduate school, I didn’t go back for a long time, and I

00:58:55.300 - 00:59:08.950

think I went back, uh, first year, after a year, I guess the first year was kinda tough. After a year, I had to go back once, and then I didn’t have time, or uh, or the

00:59:09.040 - 00:59:21.070

energy to go back until I finish graduate school, so that was several years. And then, uh, in between that, went back, uh, a few—every few years I went

00:59:21.070 - 00:59:38.330

back, not too often. But, um, now, the summer, uh, I try to go back to see my mother, uh, if I can do that once a year. I don’t go back too often, but my mother is eighty years old, she’s

00:59:38.330 - 00:59:52.710

still good, but uh, I’d like to, um, spend some time with her and let the, the kids to see her, uh, their uh, grandmother. Um, but it’s

00:59:52.710 - 01:00:04.050

a little bit difficult. So, just Chinese New Year, just uh, the last few days, I think since I came to the U. S., I have not been back for Chinese New Year,

01:00:04.910 - 01:00:20.660

ever. So it’s like, thirty years, right? So, because every year, this time, the school is still in session, and so, unless I’m on sabbatical, or just happens to be

01:00:20.860 - 01:00:39.290

there’s a conference—but because Chinese New Year, everything is off, there’s no, uh, conference at that time in Taiwan anyway. And actually, I don’t really go to conference there, so I only go, um, during the break, and then, Chinese New Year is, it’s not a

01:00:39.380 - 01:00:58.750

break here, therefore, it’s, it’s, I just have—have not, uh, the time and the chance to do that. So um, maybe…if I happen to be, uh, have,

01:00:58.830 - 01:01:14.580

have a break this time, I don’t, I don’t know. Yeah, so I think that’s one thing that’s a culture difference, then when it’s a break there it’s not a break here, right? And, and then, so celebration, there’s some celebration here, it’s not the

01:01:14.580 - 01:01:29.240

same because there’s no break, right? It’s in the middle of the busy week, so sometimes I think we have local celebration the weekend prior to that, or after, because Chinese actually celebrate,

01:01:30.170 - 01:01:44.410

uh, starting the New Year and celebrations after the New Year’s. Versus, uh, I think here, like, for example, Christmas, a lot of events are, like, before Christmas, and then Christmas, that day is, like, the last thing.

01:01:44.770 - 01:01:57.240

But in Chinese, you—I mean, before, there are a few things, but usually start that day and then some, some like, festival things, like uh, right, some fair, some performances afterwards.

01:01:58.660 - 01:02:16.390

But because it’s not during—there’s not a holiday, unless, I think, if it falls on Saturday or Sunday, it’s just a little bit difficult. So you don’t really see, uh, much. Perhaps in, I think, uh, Houston, we do have—I think

01:02:16.390 - 01:02:26.470

we don’t have a formal Chinatown, but there’s some streets, like, like, like more Chinese things, so-called Chinatown. Maybe there’s some, but I

01:02:26.470 - 01:02:39.740

don’t think there’s a lot. But uh, I think before that, the supermarket and some stores would be selling those things, and I think that’s about it, right? So you said you have children?

01:02:40.150 - 01:02:53.350

Yes, I have two kids. I have a, uh, boy and a girl. Um, uh, one is in middle school now, one’s in high school, so, uh, yeah, it is,

01:02:54.910 - 01:03:08.280

uh, some balance between work and life, right? I don’t wanna, uh, miss the things they have at school too much, but uh, I really can’t volunteer too much the school during the

01:03:08.280 - 01:03:28.070

day. Um, I mean, I can’t volunteer at the school any time at all, so, uh, so I, sometimes I just have to rely on, um, uh, other parents to tell me, like, like, the, what kind of things did the, the

01:03:28.070 - 01:03:46.380

PTO do. Um, but I try to, uh, do most of the after-school activities, and I, uh, like to have them, uh, do more sports, so, uh, we’ll arrange them and I encourage them to do that, and then I’ll try to be, like, there and

01:03:46.470 - 01:04:01.210

then watch them, right? Okay. Uh, so do you, uh, do you speak Taiwanese at home? Uh, we speak—I speak Chinese, but not so much with my kids because they don’t know enough.

01:04:03.050 - 01:04:21.130

So if I speak, they think, and just say they don’t understand, which I think is sometimes—is true. So, um, I think when they were really little, they speak—spoke Chinese, but then once they get out, go into

01:04:21.230 - 01:04:36.370

daycare, and then school, they forgot that. Uh, so the only one I spoke Chinese with at home is my dog because I spoke enough Chinese with him, and he knows some Chinese words.

01:04:37.100 - 01:04:55.460

Also, I think he can decide if he wanna listen or not anyway, right, so it’s not so much, uh…whatever I say he’s having a reaction anyway, so it’s okay. What would you consider your greatest accomplishment

01:04:57.840 - 01:05:11.940

so far? Uh, I think, work-, research-wise, it’s the single-wall carbon nanotubes. I think it’s, uh, certainly, uh, a big thing, and it’s very interesting.

01:05:15.320 - 01:05:31.620

Um…so, I think the research-wise, I feel, because I did that early on, I feel like, okay, that was already a big thing. If I wanted a…to—that already happened, I think, so right now the things I’m doing, I try to do something interesting.

01:05:31.620 - 01:05:45.880

I’m not looking to something—it’s, like, building the big enterprise, um, so I have the freedom to do something I think is interesting. It may turn out to be big, uh, it may not, but

01:05:47.230 - 01:06:06.760

I’m not so worried about…uh, the end result and how people see it, I just, uh, look at it and I think this is interesting, and that’s what I wanna do. Um, to some extent, that’s what happened on

01:06:06.760 - 01:06:19.180

the single-wall carbon nanotubes; we didn’t plan for that, I say, actually, something we planned didn’t actually happen, but this thing that came out of this way, it turned out to be bigger than what we planned and more interesting.

01:06:19.670 - 01:06:33.220

So, so we’ll just let the discovery happen, and…because if we plan something, that wouldn’t be a discovery, like, if—right? We say, “Oh, we’re going to make this,” that means it’s—we already know.

01:06:33.730 - 01:06:47.550

So just, um, I think that actually allows me to have a freedom now to say, “Okay, I’m just gonna see what I can see with this, and—or if I can design something, see what I can do something.” I think that’s the little bit,

01:06:51.160 - 01:07:03.220

um, uh…why I can do things. Uh, I think it’s, uh, interesting, uh, without having too much pressure to say, “Okay, yeah, it has to be come out a certain way.”

01:07:03.220 - 01:07:16.860

Mmhm. Do you have any other questions? Um, so did you—so like, I guess not really. I guess, um, do you have any like, hobbies, right

01:07:19.630 - 01:07:32.450

now or side interests? Uh, I think my own hobby, I’m not, not so sure. Uh, I think before in the college I have something every time I did something, join the club, uh, I did some dance,

01:07:32.490 - 01:07:42.730

but there was interesting at that time. I don’t do it at all now. And uh, right now, perhaps, there’s something I did, uh, because my kids are doing it, tennis.

01:07:43.440 - 01:07:58.090

Um, not so much a hobby or anything, and—we just play with them, so uh, because I have to take them to practice, and then uh, also practice with them, and that will be my exercise,

01:07:58.180 - 01:08:13.680

and…and then, so, I understand the rules, and then, can—to see something, yeah. So, that—I think that’s about it. I think that in between, uh, work and kids, and then

01:08:13.680 - 01:08:27.030

everything, um, that’s pretty much the only time and opportunity I have right now. Maybe when they’re older, when they’re going to college, then I can think about something, maybe I have a hobby.

01:08:27.730 - 01:08:44.200

Maybe I’ll figure out at that time. Mhm. Um, so, how have you seen like, the Asian community change in Houston? I think we have more people, for sure, in the last,

01:08:44.760 - 01:08:54.960

uh, like, ten years. I think that—well, the city grew a tremendous and huge amount, but I think the Asian community, I think, uh, judging by the

01:08:54.960 - 01:09:10.250

restaurant, Chinese, I would to some extent, I, I said, “The things you can—you wanna eat in Taiwan, you can find it here, and the things you cannot, you can find it here too.” It’s like, a variety of

01:09:10.250 - 01:09:23.390

things, the things, Taiwanese things, but then we have Cantonese and Hong—uh, well, the Hong Kong, and then the, like, the Beijing kind of things, and so, and then, the Japanese, the Koreans, right?

01:09:23.390 - 01:09:35.990

And then, of course, we have the Western—the Italian, American. So, we have more things here, and they’re reasonably good quality. It may not be very—very best, the highest, but

01:09:36.530 - 01:09:51.570

I mean, even in Taiwan, the— we don’t have the chance to go to the very best all the time, so that’s, uh, day-to-day life, it’s pretty co— it’s comparable. And the things you wanna buy, they’re all kinda small, I

01:09:51.570 - 01:10:05.490

think they’re all kinda small things, and it’s relatively con—convenient, and then pretty much you could buy, eat everything. I think, mm, and then there is some, like, festivals,

01:10:07.530 - 01:10:26.720

and all of that—all those, and, mm… And then, we have some kind of, uh, I think, uh, Rice ha—Rice has this uh, Chao Center for Asian Studies, and then we have some events, always see that.

01:10:26.720 - 01:10:39.600

And then, um, I have colleagues that, uh…in the music, uh, the Shepherd School of Music here, and then they have a lot of events, and then some are, like, Asian things.

01:10:39.600 - 01:10:53.610

So, we, we kind of have quite some activities here, and I think we have a reasonably big population here. And my daughter’s going to an international school,

01:10:55.060 - 01:11:09.750

uh, and she’s learning Chinese there. I think that’s one of the reasons that I wanted to send her to that school. And then um, they have— so, Chinese New Year’s, they have a lot of activities, I think so—some

01:11:10.110 - 01:11:19.550

of the parents really spend a lot of time and energy. So, at least she, she get to experience that and even the—join some kind of

01:11:19.720 - 01:11:30.880

performance and some celebrations there. Yeah. Okay. Did you have any last questions? I think that’s all the questions we had today. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

01:11:32.320 - 01:11:51.050

Mm, I think it’s, this is good, yeah. Um, I’m glad to share my experience, and I hope the, the people who come here and will, uh, will have some, mm, uh, resource and

01:11:51.080 - 01:11:58.710

help and then for them to get started. And then, that will be good. Yeah definitely. Thank you so much.

01:11:58.710 - 01:11:58.930

Thank you.