Chi Mei Lin oral history interview reflecting on Covid-19 pandemic

Okay, so today is November 25, 2020. My name is Chelsea Li, I am here interviewing Chi-Mei Lin for a special COVID interview. Yeah, let's get started. So, in what ways has this

coronavirus pandemic impacted your life personally? Personally, because when we first tune in to the, you know, COVID-19 information, a lot of that

information come from China, Taiwan, you know, the Asian region, right? And we have family members there. And so we start to pay attention to how that impact their health, of course, number one, to make

sure everybody is safe. And then we actually are very concerned about will that impact their lives- impact their lives. And they still go to school, okay. And little by little we realize, oh, different region, you know,

other than Wuhan who actually have got to the-- locked down at the earlier phase, the rest of the, the, you know, Asian countries, they actually pretty much are very vigilant in, you know, protecting themselves,

you know, paying attention to the health guidelines. So, so far, personally, I have families in Taiwan, luckily, their life is still as normal as possible. Even though as young as a five year old, when they go to

kindergarten, they wear a mask on day one. So, and they basically already normalized that mask wearing so, so far, other than, you know, public transportation, I think most of the regions or cities that we have

family members or friends at, fortunately, their life is as normal as possible. But then back here, you know, we're very concerned, after I want to say around early part of March, when we realized that, oh, it's

more than just individual cases, it actually has moved on to the what we call the community spread. When that took place, I was very concerned about how that gonna impact our family, okay, I, my

husband, you know, he always say, Hey, I'm at a high risk, because if you always older than 65. They always immediately like, Oh, we need to stay home, you know, when we go out. We- we need to wear a mask

carry all these sanitizer thing. You get very nervous in a way because when you are in unknown, that's where the fear comes in. So I would say starting March, you know, when

we realize that it has moved to-- toward the community kind of spread, okay. It- it impacted us tremendous. Yeah, for sure.

And how have you personally, like coped or dealt with any of the negative impacts from this COVID pandemic? Of course, personally when we first realized there was actually in Harris County and Fort Bend

County remember the first positive case came from a small, a few members who went to an Egypt cruise. And when they came back, I remember one of the members also is a Rice faculty.

They went out this Egypt or the river cruise a mile, right. And just coincidently that small group, also is my alum group. Okay, so we went to that same high school there a few more

years senior than I am, I was very concerned because one or two of them actually, at the time actually developed very severe symptoms. Okay. So, as

you know, the ED at the Chinese community center, I actually was making a great effort to call upon my friends or my professional colleagues at the County Health Department to see if you know, my alum can

get early testing or be put into treatment in a very timely manner, because we don't know the outcome of it, right? So I was very anxious at one time and

had to call upon different professional colleagues, to see if we can help you know, this small group of my alum members, okay to get well taken care of in- in the health area, the health care part.

That's crazy. And it was at Rice, especially. Yeah. And it's Yeah, Early phase you know, when we didn't have the testing kit or the lab, okay, in the Houston area.

It was a time when everybody was so, so nervous and anxious because they have to send their lab or their testing kit way to the health department.

I think the bill, what would it called the? Is the CDC all the testing kit need to go to the CDC? Imagine the waiting time is truly

extremely nervous and anxious. Yeah. So it did impact a lot of us, okay, in different ways. Yeah. Um, have there been any unexpected benefits from this pandemic for you?

Well, a lot of time, okay. See so we're still in the pandemic, okay. Sometimes you really need to kind of practice what they call is reflection.

And you need to find yourself some time to really thinking and settle down to see what would be the silver lining of this whole thing? Yes, we start to realize, oh,

especially, you know, with people we know, friends or friends’ friends, okay. They are-- they are sad news. Okay, um, we-we know someone who

lost their brother in Mexico. And we know someone who had gone through this hospitalization. And then, at the same time, you start to realize, Wow, we

actually need to stay together and support each other, not just from the family. Okay, that definitely is the first thing, we want to make sure, hey we have enough

protective gears, right. Like, like I mentioned, personally, my husband is over 65. So we want to make sure every time he does go out to go

to Target, we want to make sure you wear gloves, masks and everything. And we have enough those hygiene items around the household. But then at the same time you start to pay attention to

the friends or to the relatives that's in this- this whole pandemic, you- you call your parents, you call your brothers more often than before, you check on your friends, you check on, you know, like our culture,

the elderly, right? You check them regularly, because you want to make sure they are fine. And so it seemed like it brought us together closer, and that distance, okay, through this, you

know, Line or FaceTime, or those social media. Actually, we feel like we're all in this together. That distance is, you know, it disappeared. Okay. So I think that's

one thing that you can say, a pandemic or a crisis, that always, you know, bring some reflection or bring some appreciation, you appreciate more, right? Oh, you still are here, and you still have what you need.

And, and you start to realize they are a vulnerable population. When we are all in this pandemic, certain people really start to have these. They couldn't even meet their basic needs, right?

So can become more appreciative. But you're more, you start to realize, oh, if I have extra, I need to share. If I can find some

PPEs through our network, we want to, you know, get them and then distribute to those communities that have been, you know, in need of it. So I would say it-it did help us kind of come

together and work as a team. Yeah. That's amazing. And also, so how much of your work do you think has been conducted via

digital communication tools, such as like Zoom or FaceTime? And how do these compared to in person experiences Why this is a very good question because I have been thinking about that.

Was this some self evaluation every now and then? Because you know I'm a boomer age. Okay, generation, so it's quite challenging. I share this with my colleagues okay.

Before COVID, okay, we go to work, we kind of work in a setting-- office setting the-- at the community center. And after the shelter in, especially if when we're in management, working at the right service agency.

I kind of got to go and mount the laptop right now I'm on my laptop, right with the Zoom meeting. And then also my smartphone because people know when everybody is working from home shelter in.

If you really need to reach somebody, you, you text them. So-- and not just casual conversation. How are you today? No, a lot of business comes from your text message, right? And then, knowing that even though we are at the

center, we-we did close our front door for walk ins, but a lot of our key staff members, we still report to work, okay, because we were running what even now we're still running the COVID-19 relief effort, meaning we

distribute the financial assistance to cover people's rental need, basic needs. So a lot of key staff members, social workers, counselors, we actually working on site.

So I still have my own office, you know, with a computer, but then, picture a boomer generation, try to navigate through also my laptop, desktop and my office. It is quite challenging.

And workload, basically, I will always feel like because the industry we're in, we actually work harder than-than pre-COVID time, but you see, all of a sudden we realize, hey, these

devices, okay, talk about digital device, not just-- we're not talking about the hardware part because we do equip ourselves with it, devices, but the software, the skill set, okay? Oftentimes, you're like, I wish I had

taken a class on, even especially one on one, okay, so I can navigate quicker. And then, honestly, during the COVID, I actually had to offer two doctor's appointment, nothing else, but to see my vision because I

didn't have to call my optometrist and said, "Do you think I have this issue?" I have what they called this, in Chinese we call it fei wen zi and the flying mosquito. I think they called it a it's like the

light or the little black box. I think that's what people call it. Okay. I see a lot of floating things-- black dots. Okay, so they say, Oh, that's because you-you've been reading from the screen

too much. So, um, social media. And I-I would say those digital devices under the pandemic crisis, they become so essential, right? But it did a pose a bit of challenge I have to admit to my

generation. That's crazy. You started seeing the black dots. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thing I learned it's called floater but in Chinese is more vivid.

It called flying mosquito, not so-- you know comment I say. I didn't think he's mosquito he's a butterfly. That's how big it was flying around .

Yeah, I got twice check it out. But that that is something kind of like we- we didn't have time to prepare for that kind of being challenged, put on the spot. And, uh, but it did it

kind of put us in a learning mode. And we just need to learn how to do you know, like a Zoom meeting or Google Meet. I'm so-so pleased that at the

center, like our language program, language school, after spring break this year, they had all the Chinese school learning virtually, okay. And I-I was very impressed that I've seen, principal, and teachers, I'm just very impressed

that you're able to put a curriculum, okay, online within a week or two. It's just amazing. So technology become a very essential

part and but-- at the same time, we need to be very cognizant that how that going to impact the population that actually didn't have the same baseline, so that's why we pay attention to the

real digital divide. Yeah. for school-aged children, and for any, you know, any old- call it is population, even the senior population, right?

They couldn't go to the doctors, can they do what they call a virtual doctor's appointment? I tried that okay, to get my prescription. Oh, I have to navigate the system. And I was very lucky.

Their triage nurse was very patient with-- hold my hand. So that I can finally get to see my doctor on the screen. Right? And so I can picture

a lot of those seniors in the 70s, 80s. I-I can't, you know, I just, I believe they will face a lot of challengings. So yeah. challenging. Navigating the device?

Yeah. Yeah, For sure. So kind of following up on what you just talked about, I see that-- so you're the CEO for the Chinese community center.

Can you give a little bit of background on your organization? And its response to COVID? Oh, oh yeah, I'd love to, because the Chinese Learning Center has been serving the Greater Houston

Area for 41 years. And previously, we-we were actively participate in quite a few other crises, such as the Katrina, you know, to the three years ago, the Harvey hurricane, so

we are a volunteer- volunteer agency signed up with the Red Cross. If there's a disaster, we can activate our center to become a shelter. However, this time, okay.

The center realized, of course, first we need the-the county and the governor's order, we did a lockdown. And then we realized that, you know, in April,

when-when the community especially a lot of the, the first responders, okay, they are the ones that work so hard, okay, double shift. Every time you hear an ambulance or find them passing by, you almost want to say a

prayer like oh, for everybody, it's okay. Because realize that, during this time, I think almost 90% of these costs are to

transport patients or emergency call to the hospital because they suspect it can be COVID-related illness, right? So it- it kind of brought this sense of urgency, like, what can we do as the community

center? At this time? It's not really the first C-- the Chinese it's really the second one-- the community center. What can we do? And we're just very, very blessed because

few leaders in the Asian American communities particularly Peter Chan, who used to serve at our as our board chair, and Southwest management industry, board president Mr.

Kenneth Lee, Asian Chamber of Commerce, our President, Mr. Bing Yu and a CCA Chinese American citizen Alliance, Executive Director, Alice Lee, few- few of these community leaders,

okay, they come together, they wanted to be of help, and also be part of the solution. Why? Because the pandemic, okay, really hit the Asian community hard start in January,

when the rumors start to, you know, going around saying, “Oh, the supermarket had a case, generally, we didn't even have testing. Did you know someone had a-a positive case?” So that rumor really hurt the local

business earlier, right. So all the restaurants, they start to shut down. And this- this small group of community leaders, they actually utilizing their community network in the influence.

They actually started a fundraiser. They want to find ways to deliver 10,000 meals to the frontline heroes, meaning the health practitioners, you know,

firefighters and police department officers, okay. Why the first responders? So amazingly, within two weeks. Together, they raised over

$100,000. So they did something very creative. They said let's place order of those meals from the API business owners, okay, restaurants, you know, Korean food, Indian

food, Chinese food, Vietnamese food, and then to help them to sustain certain level of business, right. But then at the same time, we also express our appreciation to the first responders.

So that project is called Asian Americans salute frontline heroes. And it was such a successful event under this pandemic, and it kind of activates a lot of volunteers.

So toward the end, they are over 20 agencies, AAPI agencies, okay, we all work together, we deliver meals to the senior homes, to the nursing homes, for hospital systems. And we also deliver to even City of Houston to the Waste

Management Department, you know, we all stay home, but the garbage pickup, people are still there, every day, right? They cannot skip their duties.

So we really want to tell the first responders and those people who work diligently even when the rest of the world is going full shelter in. So that's what the Asian community has been doing.

And the center is a key member of this project. And the other part was doing advocacy, you know, because when the pandemic start to impact worldwide, okay.

Unfortunately, people still think it's a Wuhan virus. . A lot of anti-Chinese anti-Asian sentiment, start to surface, you know, in America, in Texas, in Houston.

So we actually fundraised over 100,000, but we allocate a small portion of that to do advocacy activities. We actually, yeah, bought advertisement on the Chronicle, Houston

Chronicle. And if you get on our website, you will see, we still have a segment reporting this project. In this one page ad basically we said, there's no room for hate.

Okay, so we pretty much gather a lot of support from our fellow agencies, even from other communities-- the Vietnamese communities. So anybody, you know, endorse our advertisement.

And- and you know even like the ADL, the Anti-Defamation League, right? They pretty much step up and make the message very clear. Under this pandemic, we are working together to be the solution.

And absolutely, this is not a time to create, you know, the xenophobia, okay, in any way. So the, we've been very busy, I would say, but I do think, Asian American

communities, through our working together, we actually produced a very positive image and energy in the community. That's really inspiring to hear, especially the advocacy part.

That's super important. But I also understand a lot of the Chinese Community Center's programs have been switched to virtual during the pandemic. Have these programs been well received?

And- and also, do you think there would be a value in continuing to offer some of these programs via digital tools, even after the pandemic? I think this is a question, we've been thinking,

you know, kind of discussing about in our business planning, such as the language school, right? The Chinese language school? We have a pretty good

enrollment, sizable enrollment for adult Chinese. And these young professionals or college students, they actually enjoy virtual learning. And so to them, they actually upkeep their study

and their attendance are better. And somehow their communication with their instructors are even closer because you can always utilize, you know, a messenger or something to post

question. So we see the benefit of virtual learning. However, we do have a different population, which is what we call the new immigrants, and we do serve a population who's looking for jobs and or between jobs,

that population and some every school youth population, then you will need to be more intentional creating a what you call a user friendly learning

environment, because you cannot assume everybody-- Oh, when you go online, everybody have the same baseline? No, we cannot assume that. So we gather all of the laptops from the Chinese school,

because we don't have in person class, right. So we have about 30 iPads there. They were donated by our PTO is

almost like PTA, okay. They bought these iPads for our language school, but then during the shelter in the lockdown, we let those students in the adult education or in the after school youth, which is at risk

population, more or less, what we call the is the low moderate income families, we let them pretty much like borrow it. Okay, because want to make sure they have the-the

adequate device. So would you-- the device will impact the learning outcome. So in one way, we look into the benefit of virtual learning. But I

would say, if that population is already equipped with the hardware and the software, meaning the skill set, then that actually is even scaling up quicker. But then if you're looking into it, that population that

really come to CCC to gain their skill set then when they study at home, we want to make sure they have the-the adequate device. Yeah. And I think even the public school system right now is still

working on this challenge. Yeah. I also heard that you initiated some of the senior care efforts during the pandemic. Could you talk about some of these contributions?

As well, no, during the, you know, the shelter in we do have a-a very robust Senior Center, and we have a Wellness Program, but knowing that the senior is at high risk, okay.

So a lot of them, especially Asian families, they are very hyper vigilant, like their grown children will say, Oh, please, Mom and Dad, do not leave your home, okay.

They just, you know, they don't want to risk, okay, being exposed right, or, you know, they try to avoid unnecessary exposure. So many of them stay home, hey, three months become six months, and now is still ongoing, right we into the nine months.

So we actually start to ask our social workers or our professional staff members in our senior department to actually schedule some outreach activities.

They will go to the senior housing, even though it's a small group, they will kind of you know checking on them. Okay? To make sure they are okay.

And we did find out that many of them express, they feel depressed because of this isolation. And we're also doing these shelter ins, especially in the summertime. We, every now and then we would do drive through

this, like a distribution of the masks. Okay. And we also just recently last month, we did a drive through, flu shot. We were actually thought of,

oh, we're not sure how many people will participate, right? Surprisingly, there were over 130 families, okay, where they drove by to get a flu shot, and many of them are seniors, right?

So we-we initiate quite a few activities in addition to our online program, we did- we did a move for our like, Tai Chi class, ukelele class, okay, all these senior activities online,

like it's a small Zoom group, okay, 12 to 15 of them can get online and still do activities with their instructors. But at the same time, we are very mindful that they will still be quite a lot of them did it because like

I said, it can be digital challenges, or just because they- they feel depressed. They just lose interest on participating. So we have to take a look at both, you know, for

the virtual program, we keep it going. And then we continue to design some outreach activities, so that we will go to them if they couldn't come to us, right. And then we also bring mental health into our

service plan for 2021. Because we know for sure, because the social isolation, okay. Senior will have a lot of symptoms. Okay, that's associated with depression.

And for the adult population, it will tell why, economic loss, right, many people they either got laid off okay, or small business owner, they have to close their business.

And people who rent apartments, they going to get evicted. We will see a, you know, what we will call it is increasing cases of mental health issues, for sure

in the coming months. Well, that's also a very vulnerable population to loneliness. So that's very important that you are doing this. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, we-we took the opportunity of the Moon Festival this year was the late one. It was in October, early October. So because a lot of times if you call them and you say,” Hey, Mrs. so and so, so can I come and visit with you?” I said, “Oh, you don't need to because

it's COVID time.” But then if we caught them and say, Oh, it's Moon Festival, we want to just bring someone cakes and visit with you? They say “Oh, okay, you're very welcome.” So we really have to, you know, kind

of designed it so that they will not say no to you and then they just, you know, I remember our social worker, pass some, pineapple cakes.

Okay. And the mooncakes. And they visit with them. And-and that's -that's how we find out. Actually, they were very honest with our staff, they

tell them, yeah, either themselves, or they know someone in the same housing complex, that actually are having on depressive mood. Yeah, yeah, that's why a lot of time, we will

realize they couldn't come to us. Our only way is we go to them. And, of course, we follow a lot of the precautions and everything. We're hoping that if we can, you know,

put together a very well rounded service design, we hope, we will be able to offer our help to the vulnerable population who actually are isolated, but at the same time, keep up the health and independence of those

who are able to continue with their engagement with the center's activities. I also heard that prior to the pandemic, CCC had completed a new Senior Activity Center.

And so will this center be focusing on serving senior members, specifically in the Chinese community? Or will it be open to all seniors after the pandemic? It is actually a community Senior Center meaning

it's for everybody. Okay. We actually welcome the community to book the facility for different activities. Remember, this year is quite eventful.

We actually gone through the 2020 Census, right. And they were also just finished the 2020 presidential elections. So even though we locked down technically, the-the new

center, the TD Child Family Center, is just still, you know, offer a lot of opportunities to the community. When we did the Census 2020 we host like a panel

discussion through live streaming. And we did it in our tea house. Our new center, our two story building, okay. It is a two story building.

The first floor is dedicated or kind of licensed to what we will call a DAHSC Day Activity in the Health Services Center. Of course, at this time we don't have DAHSC members come in.

And-- but then we utilize the space. Remember, we actually have a small learning part for-for the care for the at risk youth. When the school lockdown the parents, some essential workers still

needed to go back to work, right. So they would send their children to CCC. When we want to practice social distancing, we let them use our new senior center’s dining

hall as a beautiful, you know, big area activity room for them to, you know, set up their computers, and they can continue to log on to their school learning. So we won't call it is we repurposing

our space. Okay, so the new Senior Center actually, truly helped us out during the pandemic, because we're able to move the children to the senior center. And on the second floor is what we call community space.

We have an auditorium, a tea house, and a activity room. And so when we did the, I believe it's Census 2020, we will have a webinar or we will invite a

speaker, right, we do live streaming, but then at the same time, we will also have some give backs, if anybody who wants to respond to the Census 2020 by coming utilize our laptop because it's online, okay,

there is a majority of the respondents have to go to online, so if they walk in, we would utilize the very-very rooming facility to offer them that the direct services and also give them some give back for

you know, like a self-care kits. So our senior center actually, you know, we're so, so blessed that the center actually have been there and ready for the public.

And we- we actually utilize this space, every now and then, in the past six, eight months. Yes, yeah. But we plan to bring back or start up the DAHSC

program because knowing that certain senior members, they-they express a need to kind of you know, come to a what we will call it is supervised environment where we can provide them with good healthcare, and

nutrition because we have a commercial kitchen that prepare the breakfast, lunch and afternoon snack. If a small group of senior they expressed the need, we would like to bring them back to that facility.

Yeah. I guess we're gonna talk about some more general topics, but how have you seen the Chinese community or Asian community in general, been impacted or targeted by this pandemic?

That- Okay, of course, we talk about how the anti-Chinese sentiment impact the community, it does it get too close, okay, like, we have parents, they worry about sending their children back to school, they

afraid of being bullied right by their friends, or maybe their children have some best friends, they are not Chinese. And then they are so afraid when they resumed class, their friend would not even come closer to

them or talk to them because maybe their parents say: “Oh, you need to be careful because your best friend's Chinese”, you know, we cannot second guess people's intent but we know it will happen. Okay. So, a lot of that- the-

the fear that generate the the-anti Asian sentiment that is in that that impact that Chinese community- community in general, across the board, right. And then you worry about a lot of

profiling. So, I would say this, you know, this pandemic COVID-19 the impact to the Chinese population or Chinese Americans are more in the- in the phychos- what we will call it is us-- in the emotional

you know, we'll call it is-- emotional, mental health, and a lot of that is xenophobia, I hate to say that but it will be. Okay?

A- but we actually are also having the, the proactive opportunity to, to eliminate that, that opportunity for people to, to act in that manner, meaning

how we turn the negative situation into positive, it has to be an intentional effort. Okay? Because by doing the meal project by doing all these advocacy

efforts, you-- we do see how the general public start to change their image about the Asian American community. Chronicle had done quite a few full page coverage on how the Asian American organizations

come together, finally seen for PPEs, they purchase million dollars worth of mask, gloves, and the protection gears for the health practitioners. If we organize ourselves and take a proactive

attitude, I believe the impact, the negative impact will be minimized. Okay. So it will unfortunately, I have already

seen that okay, locally in Texas, and even nationally, we've seen the impact. Yeah. And I'm hoping that the political landscape will be a little bit more friendly, and

then we can actually address the, you know, that the more, pretty much like our equal rights, okay. Because it has to be a-an effort, it will not happen by itself. Okay.

This is something that actually will give all the Asian American organizations, some homework to do. Yeah. And talking about, like, the

Asian American communities, do you think this pandemic has brought all Asian American community members closer together, disregarding the ethnic background? I do think so. Because remember, for Asian countries, okay, we

don't have a uniform language. Right? So, you know, non-Asian couldn't tell whether you are Chinese, Vietnamese or Korean. Right? They think y'all all the same.

And because of that, we've been challenged at the same time. Remember that Netland that actually was a family from South Asia? I think he is from Laotian? I think they are?

Or? No, I think they are either further what, where did they come from? It's remember the family in Netland. They got a pat in Walmart, right. So they are not Chinese, but people just

thinking they are Chinese, okay? Or they all look the same. So when they emotionally, you know, couldn't handle this stress, they become physically violent, right?

So the family, even their children got hurt. We immediately realize we need to come together, regardless if you are Chinese decent or not.

Right. So when we work on the advocacy part, the Korean community, they supported us, the Vietnamese community, they supported us, because we know when-when they attack this

scale of crisis, if we don't work together, we don't utilize our resources together, we are all going to be, you know, going down together. So you know, we can only

support each other, share our resources and speak up for each another take care of each other. That's how we can, you know, make the turn-- Okay, make the turn around. So, yes, I do think the pandemic has,

you know, has brought us together. Do you think that there still will be efforts to enhance relationships among various Asian ethnic groups? That's something it's ongoing, actually.

In Houston in particular, we have a collaborative called ECI Empower Community Initiative. We have about 10 to 15 members. And our goal is to promote Asian

American's voice through civic education and civic engagement. Okay, so it has- it has been ongoing on for many, many years, and the pandemic only strengthened the, you know, the unity of this organization.

So, like I said, it will be an ongoing homework for us. Take a look at this election, okay. Asian voters, the voting rate has increased, okay.

And then people say, Well, that's because, you know, we, we realize this is an important election. It should-- it should always be important when it comes to voting, right?

Because that's our entitlement, right? If you're a citizen, and you become a registered voter, you need your voice be heard, you need to have a seat at the table, how you're gonna to get there, by

voting, by being counted. Right? So it has been an ongoing effort. But more so this year, and more so going forward, because we

truly understand and experience okay, the challenges for not doing it. Right? I am. So I really hope that

going forward, all the AAPI organizations and communities, we will continue our partnership or strengthening our collaborative, and only-- because that's the only way we will make the AAPI part of

the, you know, the big, you know, fabric of this United States, right? And only by having our voice heard, okay, that we can say, “Yes, we are American too”,

right. Yeah. So, we, we did talk a little bit about, like structural inequality. But what do you think the pandemic has revealed about these structural inequalities in our

society? If you take a look of the Asian culture, the current things of Asian culture, we actually have gone through, okay, a lot of

inequality, found the Chinese Exclusion clause from the-- when, you know, during the 1940s, the Japanese Americans, right, they've been put into the camp all these inequalities,

we seldom make a big noise of it. We realize that it existed and then, if you don't address it, you don't correct it. Okay? It will not disappear.

So, the pandemic actually taught us a lesson. The inequality, okay, a lot of time, if you studied the 1960s equal-equal rights act, okay, the Human Rights Movement,

okay. We actually APIs sometimes we ride with the Black, you know, Black American, or African American Movements, social movements.

However, we cannot always just ride with them. Right? We also need to form our own voice, our own movement to address the inequalities, okay.

And I truly think with this pandemic, and being called Wuhan virus for a while, that actually need to, okay, wake us up, okay, it wake us up and say,” Hey, we need to be responsible for this, and

we need to address this”. And so, um, I do, I do think, at participating, you know, more in the public service, you know having more people

running for offices, and, and also more people, Asian Americans, especially Chinese Americans, engaging in the human services. Yes, we have a lot of scientists, we have a lot of

engineers or astronauts, okay. But we also need to, you know, invest In the human services, right, public services, and that's how we can have more control to address the inequality

in-- because our culture is very different than the Western culture, you don't see us going to the street and you know, do a protest, right? Seldom see Asian people, you know, do that.

So then how you gonna address the inequality? First, you have to acknowledge there is an issue about it, there is a-an issue about it. Right. Okay.

And we have to knock down the model minority image. Okay. And then we will engage in the civic activities, right, engaging, voting, engage

in running for offices. And these are the things Asian American needed to do in order to, you know, address the inequality.

And I don't think there's any other shortcuts. Yeah. You brought up a lot of really good points. Yeah, I, I think you also kind of started addressing my last question, but maybe you have some other things to add on.

So how do you think we could come out of this pandemic stronger as a community? How I think, it has to be a collective, you know, collective effort.

And when we say collective-- not just AAPI ourselves, we also want to invite our non AAPI friends, okay, and communities. This is very important, because when we say it's a pandemic, it,

it's global crisis. Right. So, AAPI has been, you know, we've been, you know, taking this a hard lesson. So we come together real quick, okay, we realize that we

really need to work this out together, be part of the solution, but at the same time, because it's a pandemic, only by join forces with our non-Asian allies, okay.

The African American communities, the Latino communities, and even the, what we'll call mainstream communities we all need to work together. That's how we strengthen us.

Because remember, we talked about them the model minorities, you don't want to be just be an assumption. No, we can never be an assumption. Oh, they will be okay. Well, they will take

care of themselves. No, we cannot have that kind of mentality, mentality anymore. We fight for our equality, we fight for our rights, but at the same time, we

want to be part of it the equality meaning we all are the same right? So don't forget, that means the-the Anglo-whites the African American, the Latino and

the AAPI. Only by doing that, okay, we will make ourselves stronger. We want to be a stronger partner. Right? This like I said, this holistic nation,

right? Do you have anything else that you would like to talk about or ask me or anything? Actually I do want to comment on your study, because recently, I have participated in a few

symposiums and interviews with the university students. I'm very, very impressed and very appreciate that the Rice University study or the Asian Asian study

programs, you actually took a very deep angle to see how the COVID pandemic impact the community, the Asian American community, it is important

because a lot of times we call ourself social workers, practitioners, we work on the field, right? University students, your professors, you are the intellectuals, okay?

It's very important. We all need to touch base with each other to first identify the issue and then we'll work together to address the, the problem and

come up with a solution. So I really want to thank you and your, your department and for, you know, arranging this interview and take interest in this challenge. Of course I want to thank you for your time and,

you know, giving me your perspective. It was very interesting, and I'm gonna have a blast editing it and hold that. Okay. Yeah, I thank you very much.

And in the future, if there's any, you know, similar topics or when things come down, I welcome you all to visit our center. Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, take care.