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So today is April 14th, 2019. My name is Chelsey Wen and I'm here with Kelly Dong and we are interviewing Judy Dai. So our first question just to start off is: can you tell us about where you were

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born and a little bit about what it was like growing up? Okay I was born in Tainan, Taiwan um my parents were from mainland China and they were there because they had jobs.

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So that's where I was born and uh, and uh it was uh, it was a nice family life uh Tainan was—Taiwan was backward, and Tainan was even more backward, during that time. This is uh,

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you know, we were there from 1954 to uh 65 so I was born in 1954 and uh stayed there until I was 11, so Tainan was kinda backward during that time, using today's standard because we had no air conditioning.

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It was hot as Houston—it was just humid as Houston, but no there's no air conditioning. And we didn't have toilet, we didn't have refrigeration, uh and there is no telephone but uh but we were happy. It was a good life, you know we um my uh mother was a high school teacher,

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my father was uh professor in the university. So um I guess our income was considered to be high during that time, and Taiwan was never as bad as China, there's always—there's plenty of food.

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So uh there's no ready-made clothes uh but we had a tailor, my mother would buy fabric and make clothes for us. We don't—we didn't have a car so we go into a— how do you call a 三轮车 like a little

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a person rides a bike in the front with a little thing in the back, I don't remember what that's called. But basically we were happy we had lots of friends, and uh um it was very nice close safe

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community. Mhm. Um did you have any siblings? Uh I have one older brother Mhm. And so did you grow up uh during

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the cultural revolution, but you were in, you were living in Taiwan? You got it wrong. Oh I got it wrong. Taiwan didn't have a cultural revolution. Cultural revolution

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exclusively mainland China, but that's much later. That's in the 80s. Did that affect you at all? I was in America, by then.

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Oh right, I'm sorry. Okay um so how did your parents raise you and what expectations did they have? They're more or less the same as the Chinese parents here where they—a lot of concentration on

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academics and uh, uh other than that we got lessons for violin and we didn't do well we're not that interested—and had lessons in piano. We were at the beginning of things.

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I think, back then we were one of the few families that started in classical music and and that got carried on later on, uh you can see in the uh Chinese families here.

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But we're alway—always ahead of for some reason the uh I would say, you know, one of the first few, 'cause my—my father fell in love with classical music when he was in China before uh China turned communist, so he wanted us to

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do classical music as well. So, there's a root for that, you understand that now. Yeah right... Um and then how did

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you come to America and why did your family decide to move? My father was actually in America s—uh twice uh when I was growing up he wasn't home very much. He was in America studying , and the last time he came, I think he came in 1963 uh

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went to UC Berkeley and got a Masters degree in uh civil engineering and then he got a job, so he decided to bring us to America mainly for education. You know, years later um Taiwan had a economic um

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breakthrough and then Taiwan was doing very well. So people who stayed in Taiwan did very well economically, so that's not a reason for us to move, our reason to move is my father believed that we would get better education in America.

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Mhm, uh what was your father's job in...? He uh his first job was at the uh US Army corporate engineers in Vicksburg, so we went from—my father was here already but uh my mother brought my brother and myself over.

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So how long did you live in Mississippi for? We were there for 5 years, 65 to 1970, and then my father changed his job, uh which is great actually for me because if I had graduated from the local high school, I would

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not get into MIT. My brother, who's two and half years older, he did well but y-, you know, it's, it's not that he's the, the prep— preparation just wasn't good enough, but he did well enough to get into uh

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uh University of Wisconsin in Madison, and he's a doctor, uh huh so we did well, but I think I had better opportunities because I went to, we moved to Chicago in 1970, and I went to a much better high school.

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Oh okay, um so did you find it hard to adjust to America? I actually did, um I was uh, at eleven years of age I didn't know what to expect, so it

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was kinda hard. Yeah, I think the parents always think you learn language quickly, but it's more than just language it's also the, the culture, your background is very different.

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And the kids know different things, and uh uh it's like they asked me, "What is your religion?" and we didn't have a religion, and people call us uh "Aren't you Japanese?" I said "why—why am I Japanese, I'm

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obviously Chinese" so there's a lot of culture gap, as well, right. Uh-huh. Did you start learning English when you came here or did you start in Taiwan? Uh I started a little bit when I was in Taiwan, back then uh we didn't

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teach English in—in uh school until junior high, so I missed it. My br—brother had a little bit, so my mother was actually—actually teaching me English but retrospectively her English wasn't that great,

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so but she tried um so after dinner she would sit down with me and go over these big thick books. I think geography and history were the hardest subject because there—there's so much reading, but the math was so easy.

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I was at least two years ahead, coming over here, yeah. Um so in Mississippi what were your schoolmates like? Like were there a lot of Asian people?

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No, there wasn't any. There were some, that was kind of interesting, the—I don't know whether you are aware of, there were some Cantonese immigrants that came over to the States,

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they came over as laborers and then they saved a lot of money— uh, not a lot of money, they saved everything that they could have saved, and they went to the Mississippi Delta area, and uh, and they opened up small grocery stores um those were the only

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Chinese or the only Asian in, in Vicksburg or the whole Delta area, and they were very friendly to us. We didn't even speak the same language, we didn't speak Cantonese, they—they spoke Cantonese I think they didn't speak

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Mandarin and they sp—they spoke a little bit of English but they would invite us—I would go there to their house for dinner. So they were very friendly.

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And I think there was one kid in my class who's from one of these families, but um he didn't really talk to me, I think being a—he's a boy I'm a girl so we didn't communicate. He was the only

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one, other than that there was none. Not even no Chinese, no Asians, period—no foreigners they were all locals. Yeah. So how was uh school in America different that

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Taiwan? Uh it's m—uh less rigorous. Um much less, less people, in Taiwan our class has fifty sixty per class, and uh um I think looser,

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but the emphasis is different. In Taiwan, you know, we because of the Japanese influence, still carry on during that time, you know, we sit like this with our hands behind our back and

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we're not supposed to talk—we had to wear uniforms, uh and starting in junior high—I was in grammar school, so we didn't have to do this but starting junior high, girls have to have hair—sort of haircut, and

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guys have to do a crew cut, but in, of course in America you w—you know in Vicksburg you wear cl— regular clothes but it's still conservative it's—it's South, so girls wear dresses and boys wear long pants

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and uh um. You were encouraged to express your opinion, which is not the same in Taiwan. Taiwan doesn't, it's like, you listen you follow you memorize this is more freedom here.

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Um so you kind of mentioned that the kids would make fun of you. How did that affect y— Oh no I didn't say that, I didn't say that. Oh no, did they treat differently at all because you were the only Asian? Actually overall they were nice, I think it was a small town,

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and uh I think it's just a language barrier, and the culture barrier, right. So like I didn't have any friends for a long time because I didn't know what to say—I was kinda shy, I didn't want to say anything u—unless I can get it

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out perfectly and it wasn't, you know, obviously, I wasn't speaking perfect English. So but they were very nice, they were nice to, to, to me. Just, you know, they could ignore me but there's no bad intention on anybody,

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yeah. Okay, um so how did you decide that you wanted to go to MIT? Uh, my father. Uh he’s an engineer so he thinks MIT is the greatest university in the world.

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so he said "You're going to MIT." Did—and you agreed completely with that? Yeah, that's fine, yeah, right but then we're in Chicago where I went to high school in Skokie, which

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is a Jewish community, so um, back then, you know, people don't apply outside the state, so—so only a few of us—few of us applying. Even for a Jewish community a good high school, so that's why the Ivy

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League schools are much easier to get in because most people don't want to go out of state, but there is uh maybe twenty, twenty people in our class who apply out of state, and—and you know some for the East

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Coast, right. Um so uh why did you decide on majoring in Physics? I thought it was cool, I had um uh I wasn't that great in memorization, um oh I didn't

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have AP Chemistry, so I started an organic chemistry course, I was just—really hard for me, and uh so by the—by the time I get to MIT it's tough competition because you have a lot of, lot of kids who graduate from the

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uh uh high schools in the—in the East coast, and some of them are very strong high schools, better than the high school that I went to. So they have a lot of computer courses.

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I didn't have any computer courses I didn't have AP Chemistry so but I had AP Physics so that was—that was kinda smooth for me and— and you know there's—physics is mm it's mostly calculations or logic, not—not

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that much memorization so I said "Oh I'll do Physics." Mhm. And then, what motivated you to continue with your masters later? I think I stayed for one year um, made

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a, really a rash decision to go to medical school and then I didn't have the courses so I kinda had to stay for one extra year. Just to make up the pre-med courses, but since I was there already I actually took one year as a graduate student in in

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nuclear engineering. Mhm so when did you decide you wanted to go to medical school? Senior year. Oh, why did you— Yeah, right. Kinda late. Was there any reason, a specific reason why?

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I was—it was kinda stupid reason I don't want to talk about it. Retrospectively I probably should stay engineer—uh be, yeah go into engineering. But because I wasn't good in memorization, but

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you know I succeeded, I, I managed to get by, so yeah. Um so what was the demographic like when you were at MIT and who did you mainly interact with? Yeah it's a joke is like 50 perc—it's a joke people say 50 percent Jews and 50 percent Chinese.

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In reality of course, it maybe uh, I don't know it's a rough guess maybe twenty percent Chinese, and some, somewhat,Asian, maybe19 percent Asian and there's uh you know about twenty thirty percent Chinese, or

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Asian, but among Asians mostly Chinese. Mhm, and did you, did you mostly hang out with Chinese people or? Actually I did. Well—well both, but more, more with Chinese. But that's—you know that's the first

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time in my life—actually well I wouldn't say the first time but—because in high school when we moved to s—uh Skokie there were Chinese families there. So I probably hung out with mostly Chinese, more,

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moreso, right, but not exclusively. Mhm. Mm so what kind of extracurriculars did you do at school or what hobbies did you have? I don't have any hobb—I don't remember having any hobbies I think I was just

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studying, studying and having fun and uh uh I can't remember what I joined, I joined the Chinese Student Association I guess. What else did I do.

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I think I did ballroom dance for a while. It just—it's been a long time. yeah. Uh huh, mhm. Um so why did you later decide to go to Canada to get your medical degree?

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Oh I because I got into—it has nothing to do with Canada, it just, it's because I got into McGill um medical school, I also got into American, some American medical school, but I think McGill is considered to be better, so I went there.

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Yeah it's not, uh, it's not really considered to be foreign because you don't have to do the what's the EF—it's—it's just like American uni—uh medical school, you don't have to take that test when you come back.

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It's not considered to be a foreign medical school, yeah. I think back then, Canadian medical schools are not considered to be foreign. Mhm. So did you, how was it adjusting to Canada versus

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America? I actually didn't like C—Canada as much, uh I, I think McGill makes me feel more foreign as compared to Boston, right, I think the uh the people there mostly from Montreal they're not from other

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cities, like here you go to University, there's a lot of people from outside and you have foreign students you have people from other states, but in Montreal, although McGill is considered to be an internationally

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known university but I think it's much more local. And so being local they sort of just hang out with their own buddies or people who went to high school with, their neighbors or whatever, you know.

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So we're kinda—I feel more like an outsider. Yeah so I hang out with the ones from America and not so much with the local, yeah. So what motivated you to become a doctor or why did you specifically

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choose anesthesiology? Um, I guess when you are young you don't always decide things the proper way, put it this way. My brother was um I think he was in medical school or he was—he's

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probably, I think he finished medical school already, so I said "What should I go into?" He said " Oh anesthesiology seemed to be having an easier lifestyle." which it didn't turn out to be. But I think that he told me, yeah I think that's

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what, what he told me, so um I probably should have gone into radiation mm something had to do with radiation therapy because of my physics background but I think I didn't get in any of those programs, unfortunately, and that's when I found out that there

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is um a difficulty when you come back because most American hospitals don't know much about, you know, Montreal and McGill University. So when I come back I realized it was, there was, it was not to my

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advantage, right. So did your parents push both you and your brother to become doctors? Uh no, actually no, no. My—my brother had always wanted to be a doctor, ever since he was like

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this big, so no they just um—my father always promotes uh I think your generation takes it for granted but the kind of equality between women and men, going back

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to his family, when he was growing up, his father, who is my grandfather, uh believes in equal education for men and women, which is unusual for that generation, and and so my father say

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that both of you has to have advanced degrees, but he didn't specifically say medical school. Mhm. Do you think, since he was engineer, he maybe wanted you to follow his footsteps? He wants me to be a Physics professor, now—now I

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remember, right, but, you know, I don't think I can do that as—as uh aca—academia, it was, it was just really really hard to be a physics professor, you have to be, you have to really, to excel in Physics and you know you have to do

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theoreticals, a lot of theoreticals, you can theoretical and applied, but I just think it's—it's really difficult. But I think, you know, I—I can be an engineer, of course, right.

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Um so can you describe your career or how you progressed from med school to working in a hospital? Well as a doctor you work in a hospital, so uh what

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is your question? So I mean like how was your experience or did you have any difficulties or I think med school was, was hard, it was a lot of—lot of hard work, long hours and you uh by the

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second year of medical school we start to take calls, and uh actually the calls uh in Montreal on average are not the so much the calls, years of training in Canada was longer than America, but of course, I

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didn't—I was, I wasn't there for residency but the hours were long and I think it—it's hard ca—it's difficult career to go into, right. Because you can't sleep at night, you have to take care of the patients at

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night, taking calls, a lot of tests, a lot of work. A lot of studying. Yeah, it was—it wasn't an easy career to go into.

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Um so how long did you work at a hospital before you transitioned to private practice? I actually started in private practice in Houston, right I was at the uh what used to be called, it may have a different name now, Con—Conroe regional hospital.

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When I came back to Houston, I was hired by the anesthesiology group there, so that's—that was private practice. And then I went to MD Anderson, and then after MD Anderson I, I uh came out to do private practice.

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Yeah. Did you prefer one over the other? Um... when I came out I was mainly doing pain management when uh, whereas at MD Anderson I was doing anesthesiology and pain management.

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So what's nice about pain management is that you're on call but, but you never get called because there's no emergency, so the hours are better, right. And I get to run my own practice, which is kinda nice.

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So I'm my own boss. You have to take extra responsibilities but you also have the freedom, which is kinda nice. Um do you ever feel like your race or your gender was a

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disadvantage to you during your career? Uh for sure it's not an advantage, it's a disadvantage I think, it's not, it's not too bad. Um I think uh

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it's not so much discrimination as more like isolation, like if for example, like if you go to, for some reason at Memorial City doctor's lounge, the women—women doctors don't go there. There's a lot of

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female doctors by now. Although uh when I first started there wasn't. And um and sometimes the men only talk to the men—they talk uh uh they talk about golf they talk about

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sports. I can talk politics but I can't talk sports, so it's kinda like that kind of isolation, you're not one of the guys. Okay, I think all women run into that.

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And the women don't show up so I don't know why I'm one of the few women doctors who showed up in doctor's lounge and socialize with everybody. Um after a while I'm used to it. Uh, um, they used to have small tables so then if I

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don't know them, I don't know where to sit, so I just sit down, I introduce myself, so I—you you get used to it after a while but I think um sometimes you lose out on that um, and I have to say the

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I s—I saw a lot of Jewish doctors, that they are very supportive of— of each other, but um but when I started there wasn't enough—I—in my community in my uh practice community there's not very many Chinese doctors so I never

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got any support for somebody from my own background where I can see the Jews they're all very supportive of each other, which does make a difference I think, in the long run, yeah. It's not something that you cannot overcome but, but it is

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certainly an—an advantage. Mhm. Do you think the Asian community is stronger now in the medical field? Oh definitely, definitely there's much higher numbers.

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But I think Chinese uh culturally are not united. They see more of, especially the first generation immigrant, they see more of the differences rather than the s—sameness.

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They don't see that from the American view, we're all the same. But they see themselves as from Hong Kong, they speak Cantonese, they're from Mainland China, from Taiwan, or you're American-born, they're—we're all different.

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And they didn't see that we're actually all the same. Uh we don't have the instinct to survive in a foreign country. We have the i—the cultural background to emphasize education is being very important but after education after you

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finish school when you go out to work, there's no guidance. There's no structure to help you to survive in the outside world, so there is a bamboo ceiling.

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Mmkay, uh that's one of the reasons where as, but I think as time goes by, the the Asian or the Chinese will start to understand that you gotta have some kind of structure some, some ways of uh uh uh

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going up in society that is not just yourself, you depend, and you're part of this structure, which will help you. You help each other. Yeah. Um so what do you think

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has been the most difficult part of being a physician or an anesthesiologist? Mm... I think the uh the hours, the on calls are hard, especially uh when you have a family you have

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children, so you have to take care of the family and and then uh um and do well in your job. I think the— the hardest part is the, the hours, the long hours, you know physician jobs are not forty hours.

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Uh not forty hours a week, it's uh I think for years, years and years, I care about probably 60 to 70 hours a week, right. Uh-huh. When I do private practice, I'm not, I wasn't doing anesthesiology anymore but I think I have

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to uh, uh go to hospital to see patients, and see patients in my own office, and also take care of the uh the financial part of it, hiring uh take care of my staff, so I think there's extra time there as well.

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So when you first started working how did you find the—the private practice you were working in? You mean my own practice? Uh the very first one that you worked at

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At Conroe? Mhm Um that one was okay, that one that, it wasn't bad, you know I wasn't doing uh a lot of calls. The calls, were—but I think I was younger so I didn't mind as much. I just finished residency I'm used to

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being on call. So it was fine, I liked the job, right. It was just uh we finally we decided we're not going to live up there. That was quite a long drive from Houston, right. Uh-huh. So—so that's why I got a job

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h— uh in in the medical center. Mhm. And what specifically do you do when you treat patients? When I see patients? Nowadays?

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Mhm Okay well I talk to my patient, um find out uh, what's been going on, do they have any complaints, um pain management is basically uh medications, so you prescribe medications and you do procedures uh

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either in—in the office or in the hospital, we do a lot of spinal procedures. You know uh because most pain doctors are anesthesiologists, and anesthesiologists do spinals and epidurals so uh which are regional

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anesthesia rather than general anesthesia, so that's why um, um most pain doctors are anesthesiologists, 'cause we do those procedures. So it's procedure, procedure implantation, and uh

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um and medications. Um have you, do you see a trend in the demographics of your patients? Mm not so mu—uh let's see, not so much my patients, I definitely see it in the doctors. The patients,

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you know, Houston has a—uh high number of Hispanics so I, my patients probably ten percent Hispanic, the other ninety percent are mostly uh, you know just, just uh, it reflects the ratio of diversity in Houston,

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put it this way. But as the years go by, uh, I didn't see much of a difference, no. Among the doctors there's a big difference, I think. Yeah, right. Um what do you mean by that?

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There's more and more Asians. It used to be the, like the Indian the Chinese doctors uh they're, they're foreign graduate, and now their children who were, who are American born, yeah, right.

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If you ever go to uh Baylor uh graduation you can see how many Asians there are, uh I think it's fifty percent by now, is a rough guess. And probably even higher, right.

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And then you see the doctors, change uh changing in demographics in the doctors as well. A lot of foreign names. Mhm. Um what other things do you think you've seen

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change in the medical field over years? I think there's more acceptance of women, uh when I was doing residencies, uh like say we—say we go in a group. There's a resident, medical student, and

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attending so we go and see the patient in the morning, and there's a few times they would stop me and say, "Oh please, give me a box of Kleenex." It's always me. You know, because I think, they think I was a nurse.

00:30:34.470 - 00:30:46.110

…. And then you see the doctors ch--, changing in demographics in the doctors as well. A lot of foreign names. Mhm. Um, what other things do you think you’ve seen change in the medical field over

00:30:46.520 - 00:30:55.930

the years? I think there’s more acceptance of women. Uh, when I was doing residencies, uh, let’s see, say we would go in a group, there’s a resident, medical student , an attendant. So we go and see the patient in the morning, and just a few times they would stop me and

00:30:55.970 - 00:31:03.780

say “oh please, give me a box of Kleenex.” It’s always me. Because I think they think I was a nurse. They didn’t realize I’m one of the future doctors, right? And uh, also in Mont— in McGill, our classes were fif- fifty percent female,

00:31:03.780 - 00:31:15.100

you know. Uh, but if you go up the level then you see there’s a reduction in the number of women. But now women doctors are just fully accepted, where there was a little bit of that in the beginning when I was go—when I was in

00:31:15.390 - 00:31:25.430

medical school. But when I was in residency in uh, in the States I, I don’t see it. I don’t see that very often. Mhm. Um, Kelly? … er, or do you wanna take a break first, or do you wanna just go-? No, I can just finish. We can just finish.

00:31:25.660 - 00:31:40.600

Right. Sure, um, so what do you think about like, these certain careers like, being a doctor, engineer, being like very associated with Asian Americans nowadays? Do you have any like opinions on that recent trend? I think it has always been there.

00:31:42.570 - 00:32:00.260

Of course with American immigration, immigration, uh, or legal immigration, uh, they pick the, the scientists, the doctors, and the engineers. Uh, that’s just not so much from, from the, the,

00:32:01.310 - 00:32:14.170

the, well, from the Chinese places like China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, uh, uh, Indian doctors. Yes. Uh huh, because I think there’s a shortage of these three uh professionals in America.

00:32:15.320 - 00:32:27.500

So it has always been there. You know my father k- uh, I’m sure we got our citizenship because of the same reason. You know there was the Chinese Exclusion Act, but I think that

00:32:27.500 - 00:32:41.460

was removed uh, … probably, uh… President Kennedy, uh, changed the immigration policy, and that’s when we came in 1965. So we didn’t have any problems

00:32:43.020 - 00:32:59.960

with, you know, in terms of legal and illegal status. But now of course with Trump being president, it’s probably a little harder. Um, how did you meet your husband, and did he have any impact on your career at all?

00:33:01.400 - 00:33:11.390

Um no, no impact on my career. Uh, we met in, in Cambridge. He was uh, he’s, he’s from Harvard. He was in grad-- he, graduate school at Harvard and I was undergrad MIT.

00:33:11.390 - 00:33:29.910

And so we met. So that’s like, how most people met, in college , so nothing unusual. So was he working while you, when you went to Canada? Well see when I went to Canada, yeah he was act- actually in uh, UC Berkeley doing uh,

00:33:30.170 - 00:33:38.000

post-doc. Right. I think it was two years. So we were separated for a few years. And then he found a

00:33:38.020 - 00:33:51.270

job in Houston with Baylor so we came here. Um, so what kind of work did he do? Or what, what was his profession? He got his PhD in Biophysics.

00:33:51.620 - 00:34:04.550

And right now, or for the past thirty years, or more than thirty years, he’s uh, faculty at Baylor College of Medicine in the ophthalmology department. ‘Cause he works on the retina.

00:34:04.640 - 00:34:18.680

Um, and the retina, think, they think retina is an extension of the brain, which it is, uh but it’s accessible to, to experiment because you can shine lights and you can detect the response, the electrical

00:34:18.750 - 00:34:36.310

physiology response in the retina. So that’s what he does. Um, and I think he did animal experiments and now he’s doing mice. Uh, for a while he was doing salamanders.

00:34:38.460 - 00:34:55.110

And uh, so he does research and he also has, he also has students he uh, I think he taught courses, but he doesn’t teach courses every year. But he has students, he guides students, and mostly MD-PhD students in the neuroscience

00:34:55.270 - 00:35:10.010

program. Um, when did you have kids, and are there any ways that affected your career besides making you more busy? I was lucky that my mother helped me out. So my mother lived with us in the same household.

00:35:10.730 - 00:35:26.760

Actually my parents came in to help, and my father had some medical problems. And he passed uh, a few years later. So, um, I w-, I think I was lucky that you know my, my two children are eight years

00:35:27.180 - 00:35:42.080

apart. So I didn’t have little kids, two little kids at the same time, just one little child. And then there’s my mother, and we hired a uh, we had a uh, uh, housekeeper. So we had two women taking care of one

00:35:42.080 - 00:35:57.360

child. Well actually the four people taking care of one child. So wasn’t, it wasn’t that bad. Um, so how did you balance the work and family life while raising your kids? Um, for that reason I really didn’t have any trouble.

00:35:58.440 - 00:36:09.930

Have, if I have to go out of town meeting I just go. Uh, which just, my husband and I just couldn’t go together. So we for years and years, he goes on his meeting I go on my meeting.

00:36:09.930 - 00:36:25.620

We never go to meetings at the same time so one of us will be home. And uh, as, as the child grows older, then it’s more tr-, then it’s more transportation, like skating lessons, piano lessons, ballet lessons.

00:36:25.720 - 00:36:36.420

I have two girls. So, and there was my, my, my mother and the housekeeper. So yeah, two drivers. And sometimes I, I do some of that too, sometimes my husband.

00:36:36.960 - 00:36:50.110

So I think, I think I liked that, I didn’t have any trouble it wasn’t exactly planned this way, but it just turned out to be, so. H-, having m-, my mother around make a

00:36:50.160 - 00:37:03.900

big difference. Um, so what kind of expectations do you have for your kids? And did you raise them like, the same way you were raised, would you say? Yeah um, but we have more resource.

00:37:04.880 - 00:37:19.930

It’s not so much Taiwan di-, it’s not m-, so much that we didn’t have the resources when we were in Taiwan, it’s just that it was a different environment. Uh, but for my children, uh we can, you know have a lot of

00:37:20.070 - 00:37:34.710

resource. Especially living in Houston, big city. So for example, for a while my younger daughter wants to do singing lessons. So I got Internet, on the Internet and found her um, a voice teacher.

00:37:34.710 - 00:37:48.720

And the voice teacher turned out to be, uh, a singer in the Houston Grand Opera. So, you know it’s, it’s like you just have the resources here in Houston. And uh, so, I think,

00:37:50.030 - 00:38:03.840

I always say, if they don’t, don’t achieve something, it’s because of themselves and not because of their parents . So because I think we also have the financial, uh, resource to help them

00:38:03.960 - 00:38:18.250

out, like when they were in high school, I start, take them to uh, the high school programs on college campus, and uh, which were expensive, right.

00:38:19.430 - 00:38:35.750

And, you know so I think they got everything they could have asked for. Um, okay? So, kind of typical Chinese family, high expectations , right? Which I, I don’t think is always healthy, right.

00:38:37.020 - 00:38:55.850

But, I think uh, you know, uh, I think as parents we try our best. Um, Did you have any expectations for the careers and college and, at all? For the children?

00:38:55.850 - 00:39:15.010

Yeah. Oh, oh yeah. It was obvious they were supposed to go to Ivy League schools . But we didn’t really guide them too much along the career path. Um, my older daughter is uh, strong in everything but uh, especially science.

00:39:16.470 - 00:39:31.020

So, so she’s heading toward either scientist, engineer, or medicine. And um, she didn’t want to do engineer, she didn’t want to do research. So she ended up going to medical

00:39:33.140 - 00:39:49.990

school. So, where did your kids end up going to college, and what do they do now? Also the older daughter went to Harvard and Columbia Medical School, and she’s an ophthalmologist. And right now she’s in the Bay Area, um, working for a pharmaceutical company.

00:39:50.660 - 00:40:01.130

The younger one is not as, strong in science, or not as interested in science. So, so you know, business major. Going into business.

00:40:01.420 - 00:40:16.520

So I don’t think my kids are any different from what most Asian younger generation are doing right now, so she’s a business major. She’s a CEO doing a start-up now, in, in the Bay Area. You know so I think we are kind of uh, um, we’re

00:40:16.580 - 00:40:30.390

not unusual, we’re like, typical . Um, so did you try anything like Chin-, Chinese or Taiwanese culturally with your kids when they grew up?

00:40:30.910 - 00:40:39.330

Well we’re mainly Chinese because uh, there’s a real culture difference. We’re not Taiwanese, we’re from mainland China. My parents were from mainland China.

00:40:39.410 - 00:40:52.410

So, so we are, uh last generation of Province people so uh, which there is a difference if you live in Taiwan. Um, so we, again we tried our

00:40:52.720 - 00:41:07.590

best. Uh, there were Chinese schools, there were Chinese tutors, there were summer programs in Beijing, there were is uh, college courses, so . But I think we couldn’t provide for our kids, which

00:41:07.590 - 00:41:16.970

we see some of the other Chinese families do, is to send them back to, to Asia. ‘Cause we left so long ago we have no attachment there.

00:41:17.460 - 00:41:32.050

We don’t have relatives close enough to send them. I think one of the best way to learn languages is to go to that country. So if you go like, if you, if you spend the summer there, especially when you’re younger and pick up your accent, pick up the language there fast,

00:41:33.060 - 00:41:46.970

um, Chinese families who have relatives in Taiwan or China, they send their kids back there for a summer, they come back and language ability improved a lot. So we didn’t have that. Uh, so I think they do ok, but they’re

00:41:47.720 - 00:41:59.100

not fluent in Chinese. But they do ok. So when your parents moved to Taiwan, did you still have relatives in China? And did…? We have a lot of relatives in Taiw-, in China.

00:41:59.960 - 00:42:11.510

Um, but I think after my father passed away, we’re um, we didn’t have that close attachment. Because it’s a different generation. We didn’t grow up together. They were just names.

00:42:12.180 - 00:42:25.580

And we, maybe we met once. Twice. You know I think that attachment is gone. Because some of them actually managed to come to the States to study. But they’re not that close to us.

00:42:25.630 - 00:42:42.400

So were you guys the only family in Taiwan? That’s right. For both sides, my mother and my father, right. Um, have you ever gone back to China at all since you left? Oh yeah!

00:42:42.420 - 00:42:53.460

Well, yeah, I wasn’t from China, but I’ve gone to China. I’ve gone back to Taiwan. Those places, yes, right. Mhm. So how often would you say you uh, visited?

00:42:53.770 - 00:43:02.520

Well maybe, I think maybe once, once every two years I go to Asia. You know either Hong Kong or China or Taiwan, yeah. So we go quite frequently.

00:43:04.630 - 00:43:19.560

Right. Uh, Sam goes there, uh, he has um, connection with the uh, university in, in Hong Kong. So he, he goes there and teach a course every year. So sometimes I go with him and then we would travel to, either

00:43:19.600 - 00:43:35.110

to Taiwan or to China. So after living in the US for so long do you still feel that connection to China? You know, I think it’s always kinda interesting for me to go there, but I’m definitely not one of them.

00:43:35.210 - 00:43:49.150

Um, and they recognize that as well, we walk uh-- It used to be we walk on the street you can tell that we’re not local. But now it’s harder because the clothes , hair is the same. But it was kind of

00:43:49.150 - 00:44:04.450

interesting to go there in 1979, when we went there. Um…um, to see our relatives for the first time. That was very nice.

00:44:06.850 - 00:44:23.120

Yeah. No my father was still alive, so. But China was very different. In ‘79 it was, uh, it was, a sea of blue.

00:44:24.610 - 00:44:39.970

You don’t see that. It was like a true communist country. You know, like cement buildings, uh, no, no real structure to

00:44:41.060 - 00:44:57.190

it. And uh, bicycles everywhere, and at night the lights turn off, very dark in the cities, not enough lights. Um, yeah that was kind of interesting.

00:44:58.420 - 00:45:16.250

Except for your generation you don’t see that. China, you know, it’s, has moved on. Would you say that, like, do you think China’s moving in a good direction now?

00:45:16.250 - 00:45:29.280

Compared to the past? Well I don’t want to get into politics . But I think in terms of the people’s lives it’s a big change. You know, you can, look at Shanghai, it’s all glossy and uh,

00:45:29.730 - 00:45:45.300

tall buildings, uh, uh, modern structures, uh, it wasn’t there in ‘79. And uh, um, I went to meetings I’d see Hunan uh, in Hunan

00:45:46.020 - 00:45:59.670

and uh, which is the first time I went to a meetings in that city because before you always go to Beijing and Shanghai. And surprisingly that was very well built as well. So I think it has um, the um,

00:46:02.180 - 00:46:19.350

the economy improvement has moved to the other parts of China. Maybe not into the uh, very backward villages, but I think it, it’s, probably covers the majority of China. So, just in terms of economies it

00:46:19.580 - 00:46:31.600

makes a big difference. Mhm. Um, would you say you’re heavily involved with the Chinese community in Houston? And if so how— Um, I, I do some.

00:46:31.750 - 00:46:44.400

Not a whole, not a whole lot because it’s just mainly I’m busy. But um, there’s a Chinese Doctors Association that I used to be very active. I kind of slowed down for the past several

00:46:45.790 - 00:47:01.670

years. And uh, there’s a few other organizations. Um, I’m gonna be retired by the end of this month… have a little more joy , and be more politically active. Uh, Houston also has changed a lot.

00:47:01.670 - 00:47:18.050

There’s a lot of different c-, different associations nowadays . And uh, you know I think uh, as time goes by it’s, the, are gonna become more political. So, if you’re

00:47:18.330 - 00:47:32.430

saying that you’re gonna retire soon, uh, do you have any plans that you want to like fulfill or things you want to do once you retire? Uh, let’s see. Well that’s, that’s uh, something to think about, right?

00:47:32.910 - 00:47:47.260

I probably will um, work with the Chinese community. Um, several things uh, I think one is um, I have to look into the uh,

00:47:47.470 - 00:48:04.260

the Chinese excluded in the Ivy League or some of the universities. Because of the um, um, it’s a number game. You know there’s such a high number of applicants that, qualified

00:48:04.360 - 00:48:21.110

applicants, that uh, that I think the Ivy Leagues are trying to keep some of them out. So it doesn’t become overwhelmingly Asian . So, we have to work on that to see if there’s some kind

00:48:21.290 - 00:48:39.460

of resolution. Um, I don’t think politically we’re gonna get, it’s hard to get anywhere because the number is not high enough. Because in politics it goes by votes.

00:48:40.580 - 00:48:54.820

The only place you can do that is in, probably in California where there’s a high Asian, high Chinese population. But I think the, what I always say is you have to look what the Jews are doing.

00:48:54.980 - 00:49:06.560

That’s the number one minority. It’s very, very successful. And one of the factors is money. So if you lift all Chinese

00:49:06.720 - 00:49:23.890

up economically, I think that is a source of power. Not so much with votes. Uh, what would you think is different for this generation

00:49:23.890 - 00:49:30.840

of Chinese Americans right now, compared to yours? I think you’re more savvy. You know more about what’s going on.

00:49:30.950 - 00:49:42.870

And I guess my generation, uh, my generation is more foreign born. Okay, and mostly graduated from college. And they’re older. And

00:49:42.870 - 00:49:58.740

they don’t see the America the way I see, because I came over when I was younger. And um, uh, I think as time goes by we realize what’s going on. And in order to be successful you have to, uh,

00:50:02.350 - 00:50:15.440

have a strategy. And a strategy is not just you, but it depends on your community to be successful. Right? I think your generation is going to see that.

00:50:18.230 - 00:50:34.280

Do you think, uh, the next generation of Chinese Americans can learn from your experiences? And, do you have any piece of advice you’d like to give them? Oh I think you have to unite. I think that’s the number one problem. Everybody say that. And every

00:50:34.280 - 00:50:46.120

time I mention that, everyone says, like my friends say “uh, we’re just, we’re never united.” You’ve gotta change! You’re immigrants, you’re not living in China! You have to have some kind of immigrant

00:50:46.120 - 00:50:59.590

mentality of uh, getting ahead. So, I think unity is very important. Can’t look at your differences, you have to look at that you are all trying to do well

00:51:00.200 - 00:51:18.440

in America, and you have, you have to unite. Do you think that, um, compared to other minority groups that Asian Americans are less united? Um, other than the Jews, I don’t think any other ethnic group is united.

00:51:18.490 - 00:51:29.620

The Hispanic are not, they’re not united at all. You know I don’t think, I don’t, I mean there’s up to a certain point yes, but not, like… I

00:51:29.670 - 00:51:41.040

think Hispanics have numbers. The Blacks have numbers. We don’t have numbers. But we have, um, we have culture and we have education.

00:51:41.210 - 00:51:53.050

Yeah. And the culture is never going to be dead because there’s so many of us . We’re looking at one point four billion population . And there’s constant immigration coming up from Asia.

00:51:53.720 - 00:52:05.360

So the culture’s always gonna be there. So I think, we’re not worried about being diluted or, uh, the language will be lost or what. That’s not—, the strength is in

00:52:05.390 - 00:52:24.540

numbers. But then you have to play the game right. Um, I guess, although I might have mentioned this earlier, do you have any like, big future plans? Anything small or big?

00:52:28.010 - 00:52:40.210

Well, I think uh, just uh, maybe I’ll find a part time job. I haven’t start looking yet. Right, but um, for doctor to find a part time job is not that difficult, so maybe I’ll look into it.

00:52:41.290 - 00:52:57.190

And, and then, um, you know I’m, want to do something for the next generation, so I’m going to join some the, uh, the Chinese associations, right. And uh, uh, maybe I’ll also have time to

00:52:57.320 - 00:53:12.970

get involved with some, uh, classical music organizations like either the opera, or the ballet. Yeah just get involved… Uh, I guess to wrap up, would you say you have any like, accomplishments

00:53:13.020 - 00:53:29.900

you’re most proud of in your life? Um, I think I did ok, but I, uh, I have to say I didn’t have any, um, I didn’t have any lack of resources. So I uh, I think, what’s been provided

00:53:30.480 - 00:53:43.700

to me was good, and I, I stayed with the course. And uh, uh, you know I didn’t get a Nobel PrizeI’m not a famous academic doctor.

00:53:44.290 - 00:53:57.740

But I think, you know I did well enough, uh, considering that I do have to come to a foreign country and learn a new language. But on the other hand I think I had good opportunities. I wasn’t short of opportunities.

00:54:00.840 - 00:54:21.070

Um, do you have any advice for young Asian Americans? Um, I think, I think, you’ve got plenty of advice, up to your, up to your last year of education. I think among the Chinese, uh… I don’t call Asian because I, I don’t

00:54:21.070 - 00:54:32.640

really understand what it--, Indi-, Indians are doing the exact same thing we’re doing, I think . Education, education, education. But I think what you are missing is after

00:54:32.760 - 00:54:44.860

you finish school, there is no advice. P-, you may not get any advice from your parents. It’s—unless your parents have been here for a long time. It’s kind of stops here. And then you’re on your own, you join a corporation, you’re

00:54:44.890 - 00:54:58.760

working at Wall Street. Or you go and uh, uh, get hired by the medical group. Uh, then, then the game is different. And I think that’s when you realize you have to have mentorship.

00:54:59.340 - 00:55:09.440

Some kind of unity. Maybe the older members of the group can help the younger ones. And uh… You know I have a

00:55:09.470 - 00:55:21.630

theory I can share with you. And that is, uh, when you spend money, all your money goes to Chinese only. It’s very powerful theory.

00:55:22.130 - 00:55:36.910

For example, if I want to buy a house, I will buy from a Chinese constructor. I will buy it from a Chinese real estate person. If everybody does that, that real estate person will be uh, will be doing very well, and the Chinese

00:55:36.930 - 00:55:52.000

constructor will do very well. And then they in turn, every time they spend money, it goes to a Chinese business. So, It’s very powerful concept. Y-, you know, you don’t have to do

00:55:52.080 - 00:56:03.390

everything. Every time you send out your money, think about it. It’s like going to H-Mart and Ranch. H- Mart is Korean. Ranch is Chinese . We go to H-Mart because we like the fruit .

00:56:03.730 - 00:56:18.450

But it’s, it’s like that kind of thinking process. You realize if everybody does that, it becomes very strong community. Okay it start, it very, it’s start at a base and build up.

00:56:19.050 - 00:56:36.230

I think it’s uh, it’s a concept that we don’t have in, in our um, in our community. Um how do you think, have you seen any changes in the Chinese American community in Houston?

00:56:40.070 - 00:56:51.840

The big change is when, um, mainland Chinese start to come. Because when uh, you know most Ch-, most Chinatowns in America are, are Cantonese. Ok, they speak Cantonese.

00:56:52.290 - 00:57:04.300

And Houston is different because Houston has uh, uh, la-, later immigrants from Taiwan. So when first came here, it’s uh, it’s mostly people from Taiwan.

00:57:04.580 - 00:57:18.500

But now, because the mainland Chinese, Chi-, Chinese is such a, much bigger group, so I think, if you go to any Chinese community in America it’s mainland Chinese. Right, uh huh so that’s a big change.

00:57:19.160 - 00:57:35.070

And the, uh, we have better Chinese food I guess , more choice. And uh, if you go to medical center, uh, which is right next door, you have uh, all these scientists and doctors from China.

00:57:35.760 - 00:57:51.120

So I think that’s big change. Uh, so, with my generation we didn’t see that. But with my older daughter, she, her, her friends and her classmates were, were born in China and came over when they were, they were little.

00:57:51.330 - 00:58:02.810

And with my younger daughter, uh, they were born in America. With your generation you’re probably all born here. Right that’s a, a big change. I don’t know what is your background .

00:58:02.910 - 00:58:16.890

So, yeah but that’s a big difference. Right the, it the, also, uh, with China becoming a powerful country, I think that raises our status in some way.

00:58:17.740 - 00:58:30.650

It put us at risk in some ways because of the spy issues. You know if you do, uh, if you go to Los Alamos and work, you may have to um, be careful with things like that.

00:58:31.940 - 00:58:48.050

So, it puts you at risk in certain ways but it puts you, advantage in certain ways. So I think that’s the, the big difference. But I think also, um, the Chinese

00:58:48.050 - 00:59:02.380

community is becoming more political. They, I think they’re starting to, to get involved in some local elections. Um, do you think both younger and older generations are getting involved in politics?

00:59:05.680 - 00:59:18.640

The older ones just few, fewer, like Martha Wong and Teresa Chang. Uh, the younger ones, uh, yeah there’s some, yeah right. We see the Indians do that too, right.

00:59:19.010 - 00:59:32.360

I think the last OCA meeting I went to there were Indian, there were Chinese, running uh, for uh, in, in the uh local elections. That’s new. It

00:59:32.360 - 00:59:47.330

wasn’t as much before, right. Uh huh. What is the OCA? I think Organization, OCA, Organization of Chinese Americans. Yeah. Do you have any questions?

00:59:47.700 - 00:59:56.620

No. Do you have anything else you’d like to mention? No, I talked a lot already . Okay. Okay, well…I guess we can just end it here.