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Today is April 8, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive, Rice University. We're so honored to be documenting Byron Kim's oral history today, while he's an

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artist-in-residence at Rice University's Moody Center for the Arts, even though it's done remotely due to the pandemic, and Byron is taking this interview from San Diego. We're also enjoying his beautiful art on campus as his works are part of the group exhibition, "Artists and the Rothko Chapel:

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50 years of Inspiration" curated by Dr. Frauke Josenhans. So thank you so much, Byron, for joining us today so generously with your time. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for asking me.

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So, to start, we're going to start from the very beginning. Where and when were you born? I was born in a town where I'm speaking to you from. It's called La Jolla.

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It's in, in San Diego County, California. In 1961. Okay, can you describe the neighborhood and the household you grew up in? Oh, the house is the typical

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kind of suburban California track housing. It's on the top of a ridge, I guess. Not that far from the ocean, maybe

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20 minutes to half an hour walking and just a few minutes bike ride or by car. And the house. Well, actually, I didn't grow up.

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My early childhood was not in this house that my parents were— my parents still live. This house was, I lived there from 1971 to 1979, so about fifth grade to the end of high

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school. And I was born in La Jolla. But before one year of age, we— my parents and I moved to Connecticut; first to Hartford, Connecticut, and my sister was born there, and then we moved to a

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small town called Wallingford, Connecticut, which is between Hartford and New Haven. And, and we then, we moved back to San Diego in

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1971, I think that summer. And yeah, sorry, I just have a one sibling, Sharon, who's three years younger than I am. That's interesting you moved around so much during your childhood.

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Do you recall, like, some of the memories moving around so much? Oh, it's interesting. you interpret it as moving around a lot.

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I don't think of having moved around that much, compared to some people. Well, I don't remember much from my very

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early childhood in California because I was less than a year old. So I don't have any direct memories, only indirect memories. And then Connecticut was kind

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of a typical childhood for that time in the early 60s. Just you know, parents were not so afraid to let their children go and do whatever they wanted to do.

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So I remember having a lot of freedom to just walk around in— I think it's quite suburban now that area, but it felt like the countryside to me when I was young.

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And so I remember running around in the countryside with my friends. And there were no Asian friends, childhood friends in that area.

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And we still have family in other places in New England and in New York; but— well, family and Korean friends, but— nobody lived nearby who was

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even Asian or even of Asian descent. So I pretty much went to school— in early elementary school, I went to school— pretty much exclusively with white kids. That changed slightly

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when I got back to California, but not that much actually. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear. And I'm wondering, born of first-generation Korean parents, what were some of the family values and Korean influences you

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might have from your parents? I think I have a lot of Korean influences, despite having very little Korean community besides my family. Even though my– my parents didn't insist on our

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being fluent in Korean language. My sister is near, nearly fluent, I would say; I, my, my language ability in general is pretty poor.

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And my Korean language is not good. But it's not, it's, it's not completely missing either. Well, I'd say one thing that

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was instilled in us was very sort of Confucian values, such as respecting elders. And, you know, that, that sort of social hierarchy in that

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sense, and, also kind of work ethic, although I don't— I think that was conveyed mostly by example. You know, my parents

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are both, both physicians, they're both MDs. And they worked very hard, and my mom especially had a very long career as a doctor; and my dad worked hard, his career was, you know, also long, normal

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length. But my mom, I remember works, pretty, pretty long. I can't remember exactly, but maybe she was 70 or so.

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Other ways to answer that question, um... How about the family values that they were trying to...? Yeah, yeah.

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I think that's, that's what I can think of right now. Maybe I can think of more later, but just... Yeah, what my, what my parents taught me.

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You think just education was super important. So I can't, I really can't. It's hard for me to say whether how much they— I think they instilled that in me a lot.

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But I think that I sort of was self-perpetuated as well. Like, I knew that they, they thought education was important; and then I kind of took

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that on as my own, my own value. Yeah, thank you for sharing. Do you remember what food you had back at home or your parents were...? We–

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we ate a lot of Korean food. My mom cooked a lot of Korean food. It was pretty simple food and I learned how to cook because I was always hungry because she came

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home late from working quite late hours. And so I would stand next to her while she was cooking. So I learned how to cook at a pretty young age. And in

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some way, I think like, that was an outlet for my creativity to like trying to learn how to cook. And also we ate a

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lot of you ate, we ate Korean— we never my mom never cooked what she called "American food" or "Western food", or very rarely, I think; but we got a lot of takeouts, a lot of fast food takeout, which I

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think my mom doesn't really remember, because I just reminded her recently about. And because she was often coming home late from work, and she felt she was responsible for providing the meal,

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she often brought, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken, or McDonald's or, you know, there's lots of different fast food options in San Diego. So we ate a lot of fast food. And I don't know what

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that, why that reminds me. But one thing that I neglected to mention when you asked what my childhood was, like, I watched a lot of TV. I watched that, you know, when in a lot of families, that kind of

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thing was forbidden; but my– my parents, I don't know that they thought about it that much about whether it's a good thing to watch TV or not, but it was not restricted. Apparently, because I– when I speak with my other

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friends who are my age, you know, my current friends and reminisce about how much TV, they watched— I, I can only think of one person I've met as an adult who watched as much TV as I did.

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I don't know how that affected me, but I spent a lot of time basically watching TV, doing my homework, and playing with my friends.

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Later on, I was playing a lot of basketball. That was my, kind of my passion. Well, that's great. And I'm also wondering, you mentioned playing with your friends during childhood. What were some of the games that you guys play back then?

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Do you mean when I was really young, or...? Yeah. Like childhood games? I don't remember particular any games. But I do remember like running.

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I remember getting on our bikes and walking to different remote areas in, in Wallingford. One place I remember was going to this chemical plant,

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American Cyanamid, and finding stuff there, which I wonder whether it was dangerous to be playing in that area; but you know, back then, things were just so unrestricted and you could just go anywhere.

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When we moved back to California, you know, it wasn't game so much because I was already like, almost in middle school. So well, one game I played a lot was basketball, and we went to the beach

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a lot. And, you know, these type these inflatable rafts and we would go ride the waves with inflatable rafts and go surfing and that sort of thing. Just hanging out at the beach.

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Sounds fun. And I'm wondering, do your parents speak only English to you? Since you mentioned your Korean isn't as fluent. They mostly speak English.

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Yeah, my mom, sometimes she'll speak Korean to me, just– just to... I don't exactly know why she does that. But like most of the Korean that my mom speaks to me I can

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understand. So it's basically, you know, we're in the kitchen cooking together or something, she's asking me, you know, what to do. Because the roles have reversed, you know, like, when I was

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young my mom told me, how to cook; and now she– she claims she doesn't have any ideas to— for cooking, and doesn't want to really cook anymore. So I try to help

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as much as I can when I'm here. I'm trying to remember your question. Yeah, so the language my dad pretty much speaks English to us, our kids,

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two of them took... Well, of the six grandkids, I know quite a number of them took Korean language class in college. So once in a while, my

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mom and dad will speak with them in a very basic way in Korean. Thank you. That's really interesting. And I'm also wondering, have you had any moments during your

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upbringing, that you realize there's any cultural traits or habits, there were Korean that you didn't realize until later on in your life? Just to continue on with the language, it's not directly

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your question, your previous question. But I– I studied Korean language in New York, just unofficially at a Korean language school for four years to

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try to improve my Korean. And I've always wanted to improve my Korean, but it only got us to a certain level. In some ways, my reading is better than speaking.

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As far as cultural traits. You know, I don't know if this is like a stereotype. But I tend to be very

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reserved in that public speaking situation. So as a teacher, I have one on one teaching, but then there's classroom teaching, which I

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do occasionally. But also there's like a group critique situation in Visual Arts teaching. And I tend to be— when I first started doing that, I was very, very quiet and reserved. I'm less so now, but still, I'm not generally the first—

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the most vocal. So that's one thing. I'm not sure if that's a cultural trait or not, or just personal.

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Well, I mean, deferring to elders is definitely the cultural trait, but I don't think I was aware of that, all along. So it's not something that surprises— surprise to me.

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I can’t think there's a good example, of one thing that I became aware of Korean or Asian trait that, that I can't aware of later,

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maybe that's because I was pretty, I was relatively self-aware of what was Korean, and not even from, from my youth; because that's— because that's— because

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I didn't have any Korean community, just my family. So I could see such a huge difference between my family and others outside. So, you know, if I grew up in Flushing or something, I might have these things.

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And then realize, "Oh, that's something you know, Americans don't really know about or do." But every time I walked out of my house, it's a

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different world, so. I became pretty aware of that. Yeah. There's one thing I heard from someone else was that they didn't realize that people use— don't use

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scissors as much in cooking, like in Korean cuisine, they cut everything with scissors. Oh yeah. Yeah, I can't really say, I don't really remember about that.

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Like, we use scissors pretty often, but somehow I don't remember using scissors in the kitchen early on. It seems relatively new to me, but I know it's

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not new. But I don't, I don't know how long, how long-standing that is in the Korean kitchen culture. No idea. I know it's very pervasive.

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And is it in Chinese, Chinese kitchen too, do they use scissors too? Not so much as I guess, Koreans, I guess, because we still chop like all the vegetables with the very like

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large, like rectangular knife. If you, right, right if you want to make long, relatively tough noodles cut down, you cut with a knife, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think cutting noodles with the scissors.

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It's like, really good, really efficient way to use scissors. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't remember when I would, I think it was probably as an adult or a teenager that I became conscious that the Korean spoon is slightly different than

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other cultures. You know, like Chinese have probably at least a couple different spoons. But the Koreans have like one spoon that is particularly Korean, the handle is a little bit longer.

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It's the volume, the volume of the, the, the cavity, the scoop is, is pretty, it's pretty similar, I think to a tablespoon.

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But it's bigger and shallower. So I don't know whether it was consciously invented this way. But I assume it's because—

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I think even more than Chinese, well, just as much as Chinese cuisine, but maybe, maybe possibly a little more. Koreans are sharing their food a lot. So that, that means

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a longer handle spoon will be useful. And also with Koreans more than almost any other culture I come across— any other cuisine anyway, there are often several

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things on the table that are still boiling. So you don't want to have like a really deep spoon for that. So that's, that's, that's my theory about the Korean spoon.

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And I'm very proud hosts of certain, certain Korean things, especially something like that, because it's so practical and so subtle. Like, it's not that, it's not that different, but it is like in a

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way that feels significant. Yeah, that's super interesting. And next, I think we can shift, shift gears a little bit towards art and your early education, and encounter with art and literature.

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So you studied at Yale first, with a BA in Literature. I'm wondering, have your— since your parents are both surgeons or MDs, and MDs, yeah. Do they have any, like, kind of questions or disagreement when you decided to

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start pursuing art as your, your— in your studies. Um, they were not like this to stereotypical Asian American parents who will demand that their children be,

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you know, pursue fields that are going to be financially secure, you know, and professionally, professionally,

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respectable, in a certain way, from the point of view of, you know, the immigrant community. So, I don't, I think that, you know, it's different between my mom and my dad, but

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certainly neither of them were very struggling against my becoming an artist or a writer, I mean, I originally I think I wanted to be a poet. And but, but I think

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my mom and dad are slightly are somewhat different. I think my mom probably was concerned about my making living. So she thinks, I think, she hoped that I could become a doctor, or something like that.

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But she didn't voice that opinion very strongly, or at all really. Not sure if I know exactly, that– that's just like, I think it's my mom's character to be more practical.

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And then my dad has always been very supportive of my pursuing anything that I was very interested in. Partly because he, even though he

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found his, his own career very successful and satisfying, he thinks that, that kind of professional career, especially in pursuit

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of money, it's not a very interesting way to live your life. So he was always supportive. They both were. They both are very supportive of whatever I do.

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That's wonderful to hear. And how did you become attracted to pursuing art? And I mean, at first literature. Begin with maybe a mentor, your high

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school teacher, or anyone that impacted that decision. Yeah, it's usually that way. And it was that way, in my case too. It was not one particular teacher, but my

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school, I ended up, I started off with a public school here in San Diego, but went to, end up going to private school called La Jolla Country Day School. And they just had a really

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great English department. So I was introduced by the teachers there, well, essentially , especially kinds of literature, but

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somehow I gravitated towards poetry. And then, you know, there are always these accidents that happen that really influence your life... would have been to live, and still now this apartment

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that I'm staying in, near my parents house, during the pandemic, which– which they own also— is within walking distance of UC San Diego,

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UCSD, which is a big school. They have a really wonderful library, which is where the main library, they have a wonderful library system, the main library for modern

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products, Spaceship or Space, Space Station. And it's not the case now. But at the time, I was in high school, the top floor of that building was dedicated to

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poetry. I think it was, yeah, was all poetry. So I used to go and study there and do my homework, whatever it was that science, history; finished my

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homework, and I would go to browse. Now they're not open. I mean, of course, they're closed now because of the pandemic.

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But I mean, that poetry collection is not an open stack any longer. I don't know why. But it's closed, you have to have permission to go look at this.

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I guess I should say I don't know why, when I was in high school, I could just walk in, not being a member of the University at all. Just a community member and just read the books.

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That's where my love for poetry began. And how about arts? Did you started painting or doing like any experimental work, when you...?

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I did a little bit of art in high school, and there was a wonderful teacher, Carolyn. And so she was very encouraging. And, but I didn't do a lot of art.

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And then when I went to Yale, I also did some art, but mostly in the interest of being well rounded. Because I was actually much better at science.

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And I did a lot of math. I think I probably did more math in high school, than art at that school up to that point, I mean, it's hard to say because

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many years, they get to college afterward, I did two full years to college calculus by myself, during high school, you know, with– with the math teacher but not in a class.

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So when I got to Yale, I wanted to it's– it's hard, it's hard to explain, but I always was more interested in, especially at a place like Yale where there's so many options, and so many really strong fields being taught.

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I always wanted to pursue the subject area that was most difficult, most interesting, and most fluid. So visual art

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was kind of…. It's really interesting to me, but it's really hard. So that's why it's kind of a strange answer. But I math in the very beginning.

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Not because I was some kind of genius at math; I wasn't. But I was quite good at math and science very easily.

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And some, in some ways, I have regrets now, because science would be so– so hard for me now to do, because I left it a long time ago. But it is a strange, very strange life, and just constantly

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pursue things that are difficult. When I was young, I ... Let me close the windows... Oh, yeah, so I took some art classes just to be

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well-rounded like I should take a little bit of everything right, which wasn't really the case because I kind of wish I had taken more philosophy and so forth. But it's probably, in some ways, too late.

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So I took some beginning visual art classes without becoming a major, without applying to become a major in that field, in that subject. But I really liked them because they were challenging.

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Yeah, maybe that's a better word than difficult. And there was one particular professor named Robert Reed, who, I think without him, I

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wouldn't have become an artist. So he was a really innovative teacher, and extremely motivational. He was a really good teacher for getting you to do work.

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And so, I didn't know it at the time, but he was sort of planting a seed in me and many other students about what it would be like to be an artist and how it's important.

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And so that's where that all started, I think. And yeah, I mean, I hope there are various anecdotal stories I can tell about how

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I, how I really began to think of art, visual art above other fields. But I don't know, I don't know how much time, that would take a lot of time, I

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think, to talk... but it's, I think it suffices to say that it started in college, and because it was challenging and

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interesting. And then, when college ended, that visual art was the thing that I did in college, that was the most interesting. So

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I-I-I, for some reason, I decided to try to continue it, even though I had no idea at that moment that– that's– that I would become an artist. It was just something to try.

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Yeah, it's really interesting in how life is taking you to this path. And I'm also curious how diverse was Yale University back then in your year? I thought it was diverse, because I was coming from a place that was not

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from, from two different places. Nearby in Connecticut when I was young, and also when I was in California, both places were not very diverse. So I found Yale to be wonderfully diverse, in terms of its student

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body. But that was in the late 70s and early 80s. And it was not anywhere near as it is —diverse it is, as it is now. It's so much more diverse now. And it could be more even more diverse, but I

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guess that's the answer. It seems to diverse, but it was not that diverse. There weren't that many Asian Americans, and I tended to— I wouldn't be this way now, with my current mentality and

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values— but then I tended to avoid most of the Asian American student groups. There were several of them, I

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guess. And I didn't want to be kind of lumped in it. I didn't want to be... limit myself to a group like that. And I didn't feel very much in common with them.

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Because, as you can imagine, there were a lot of, there weren't that many Asian students; and, and those that were at Yale at the time. You know, some of them were first generation

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immigrants, and I mean, it's not like it is now where there were many students coming from abroad. But still, there were people who, you know, English was not their first language and so forth. So you can imagine why they

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would really want to have friends who they could go eat with, and speak with. But I didn't feel any closeness with them. So I didn't. I ended up not wanting to hang out with them.

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I think if I had to do it over again, somehow, if I would had like this mentality that, you know, putting it into that 18-year-old person, I would have reached out more to those people.

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I think I would have found a lot more in common with them that I, that I thought, that I had at the time. I mean, having said that, three of my closest friends were Asian, Asian American, one of them was

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Korean. I’m not in close touch with them now, but I know, I know, I have a little bit in touch with one of them. And I know what they all they're all doing.

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Those three. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear that story about how you come back to view your own time in university. And I'm wondering how did that time impacted you, in how you, like, reflect and view your Korean

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American identity? Oh, um... Or if I should say, like, during, during that time as an Asian student, but

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who is an Asian student, not from Asia as first-generation, like, how would the other students see you or treat you differently from the first-generation student there?

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I can't tell. I was kind of oblivious to that, like I, I, it was, it was almost to the point where I was... I wouldn't

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say that I was really actively avoiding them, but I didn't... When they invited me to events, just simple events, like going to go get food together, I would generally refuse. So I don't know how, I mean,

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just from that evidence, they were very kind to me. And I wasn’t very, I wasn't very, I feel I wasn't very kind in return, in a way.

00:41:46.590 - 00:41:58.660

In some ways, I was almost going to say it was very important for me to, to assimilate to American culture. But that's not quite true. It's not exactly accurate.

00:41:58.930 - 00:42:15.290

It's, it's that in a way, I was already assimilated. So it was hard for me to assimilate to Asian culture in school, you know, Asian, Asian American culture or other— I mean, there certainly were a

00:42:15.340 - 00:42:28.810

few students from other countries, and I didn't feel much in common with them. I think that's because I was emotionally and socially immature.

00:42:30.740 - 00:42:46.570

I think now I would definitely want to hang out with them. So, and I'm a teacher now, at the same school. So I feel very strong

00:42:52.470 - 00:43:08.470

connection with my students that are of Asian descent because I know that they have, some of them have difficulty, you know, like, either getting along with other

00:43:08.470 - 00:43:28.810

students, or– or just trying to make their way in, in a field that isn't– isn't especially friendly to artists of Asian descent? It's– it's not a–

00:43:30.630 - 00:43:50.030

it's complicated and strange, the art world's relationship to Asian artists. Yeah, I guess since we're already talking about this topic as Asian American artists, like in your earlier career,

00:43:50.030 - 00:44:08.180

did you feel that you have to try extra hard to, and endure more difficulty to kind of break that boundary, and enter the art world? Well, I don't know that I would say I felt a lot of difficulty.

00:44:08.180 - 00:44:24.990

But I, I definitely felt that there was a boundary, like a difference between artists of all– all ethnicities were treated differently by the art world, you know. White

00:44:25.120 - 00:44:42.120

male artists got full, full entry, like they didn’t. There was no question about whether they belonged or not. And, you know, it's, it's the way the art world works, it's all

00:44:42.120 - 00:44:55.270

by kind of, like, insistence on, you're making a particular kind of work given who you are, which, frankly, is– is terrible. It's really awful.

00:44:55.640 - 00:45:07.540

You know, it's changing very slowly. But, you know, I mean, a striking example of that is that... of course, as an artist, you can make anything

00:45:07.960 - 00:45:26.840

you want. But if you want to be an artist in the art world, and have your work accepted, let's say, especially in the marketplace of the art world; then, you know, if you, there is certainly a long period of time, which

00:45:26.840 - 00:45:50.630

continues to some degree, if you're an artist of African descent, you were expected to make a certain kind of work, you know; you couldn't make abstract work, and expect to be... accepted, you know, like given big shows, or have

00:45:51.420 - 00:46:07.330

your work sold. That's changing now, for some people, but it's just changing now, after so many decades and even centuries of this art market.

00:46:07.410 - 00:46:27.870

And so the same goes for artists of Asian descent, you know, it's not as specific in certain ways, but like, the best example I can give you about how complex and— what's the word?

00:46:29.940 - 00:46:42.740

Looking for a word, that's like, whim — capricious, the... it's the best example for perhaps the way in which the art world is so capricious, with regard to

00:46:43.880 - 00:47:04.110

how it treats Asian American, Asian artists is that, you know, as you probably know, there was a generation recently, recently, a generation of Chinese artists, who became super famous and made

00:47:04.970 - 00:47:21.280

huge careers very much in parallel with the rise of China as an economic power. Those are not a coincidence. But, so a good example is

00:47:22.560 - 00:47:39.760

Ai Weiwei. Do you know? Well, he came to New York, when he was a young artist. And I don't think I ever met him; but we, we coincided in New York, I think, like when I

00:47:39.790 - 00:47:54.080

first came, and before he left, he was— I don't know how long he was there. But there are other people that he was friendly with in New York, who were Chinese artists, who remained in New

00:47:54.080 - 00:48:12.110

York, didn't go back to China. And they, some of them, some of them are probably as, as, as... are very strong artists.

00:48:12.200 - 00:48:29.530

And they have very low recognition, because they stayed in America. So I'm sure that a few of them would have become superstars, had they gone back to China.

00:48:30.270 - 00:48:46.020

But at the time, it wouldn't make sense for them to go back to China, because there was no opportunity for artists in China. You know, they think Ai Weiwei's biography allowed him, you know, his, his, I don't know his

00:48:46.020 - 00:49:03.700

biography very well, but I'm just guessing his family circumstances allowed him to go back to China and, and still live, live comfortably as he continued his career. Anyway, the art world is so,

00:49:06.190 - 00:49:20.830

so capricious, capricious and arbitrary that way. There's, there's so many, so many examples, where the machinery of the art market just decides that, you know, one person is

00:49:20.830 - 00:49:37.550

acceptable, and the next person is not acceptable on the basis of their biography, which not so much on the basis of their work. So, I mean, that happens also on a different level. But it's all very complicated.

00:49:37.550 - 00:49:53.020

And it's such a small, small world, and it doesn't... It's not 100%, based on merit, is partly what I'm trying to say. I don't know.

00:49:54.210 - 00:50:04.350

I, I, it seems like some of my responses to your questions they go off in that. I don't know if I'm answering the question anymore. But that

00:50:04.540 - 00:50:22.570

was the question was about... Your question, your last question, maybe what's about art, art and ethnicity? Maybe? Yeah, I was asking about the endurance as Asian American artists

00:50:23.010 - 00:50:37.570

in early career, in breaking that boundary. Right. But you gave a great answer. You kind of went along. And yeah, that was really revealing.

00:50:39.560 - 00:50:59.560

And... Yeah, for me, it was for me, in a way it wasn't... Like I was lucky, because I'm able to navigate these worlds in this country, fairly smoothly, because I grew up here; and because I don't identify so strongly

00:51:02.220 - 00:51:14.500

with a particular Asian community. I mean, I do now somewhat. And I have as an adult, but because of my family circumstances,

00:51:14.500 - 00:51:31.260

you know. My parents immigrated in 19- around 1950, which is very early for Koreans in the United States. You know, besides Hawaii, there are very few Koreans

00:51:34.010 - 00:51:52.690

in the United States before the 70s. So that's why my situation is quite different than a lot of other Korean American artists, who generally most of them

00:51:52.820 - 00:52:10.400

came, their families came in the 70s or later. Yeah, I see. Thank you so much for sharing. And since we were talking about the way of kind of institution, and how like, minority artists get recognized,

00:52:11.340 - 00:52:27.390

sometimes it has to, some— I don't know if I should put it in this way— but kind of pleases a certain, like Western audience in order to be recognized. Do you think there's a

00:52:27.890 - 00:52:48.830

difference from an institutional standpoint between tokenism and true diversity? Yes, definitely. There's–

00:52:53.640 - 00:53:11.870

there is, the situation that I just described in the art field is nowhere near true equality. So there's plenty of tokenism going around, still.

00:53:14.340 - 00:53:32.880

The art world pats itself on the back, thinking it has made so much progress and gotten rid of, and gotten rid of a lot of that, but it still exists in many forms. Thank you for sharing that.

00:53:32.880 - 00:53:46.620

And I guess going back to your earlier career, what were some of the artists that influenced your earlier body of works? Oh,

00:53:51.600 - 00:54:23.210

well, there were quite a... depends. Yeah, it depends how far back one goes, but I'll just start naming a lot of them then. A painter named Bob Thompson; and Jacob Lawrence who were very influential when I was, during

00:54:23.210 - 00:54:43.180

the summer that I was in this program, as– as in Skowhegan, Maine. And then, later after that— they're both African American artists. Later after that, I became really interested in the

00:54:43.180 - 00:54:58.800

work of Ad Reinhardt and Robert Smithson. And then other artists such as Agnes Martin, Bryce Martin...

00:55:04.370 - 00:55:36.460

Let's see, Mark Rothko, obviously. Then, Robert Irwin. And... Oh, when I first came to New York, Tishaun Hsu , who

00:55:36.460 - 00:55:51.940

was primarily making paintings at the time, but he came to make more sculptural and digital works. His work was really interesting to me. So maybe that's the first

00:55:52.130 - 00:56:13.130

Asian American artist who was really influential. And trying to think of others early on, when I first started. I guess the conceptual artists too.

00:56:14.510 - 00:56:35.090

And that whole circle of artists like Sol LeWitt, Eva Hesse, Robert Morris, Lynda Benglis. I guess it goes on and on.

00:56:35.440 - 00:56:50.430

Eleanor Antin, and that whole group of original conceptualist. Vito Acconci. They didn't influence my work directly, but that movement was really important for me.

00:56:54.370 - 00:57:08.350

Yeah, and I also read about your story with the Rothko Chapel and your relationship with Mark Rothko in paying homage to him, flying— taking the flight all the way to Texas just to see his chapel.

00:57:08.450 - 00:57:28.740

Yeah. Yeah, just New York to Houston and back. So I’m also wondering if there's any kind of spiritual element or connection in your work, and what were your earlier upbringing had any kind of spiritual or

00:57:29.770 - 00:57:48.130

religion existed in your upbringing? I didn't have any sustained, formal spiritual or religious community or training when I was young.

00:57:51.960 - 00:58:13.860

I became drawn to Buddhism and Taoism pretty recently like in the last 15 years, and so I mean, I, more specifically, I

00:58:13.860 - 00:58:31.890

would just say meditation. So, I’ve become a very avid meditator. And so I think it connects somewhat to my working life, my art life, in the sense that

00:58:34.380 - 00:58:49.890

I've come to realize that... Two things, nothing's— nothing stays the same. Everything's changes. And also

00:58:55.550 - 00:59:10.430

something about unity, like, the relationship between the very small and the, and the vast is, is— exists. And everything is connected, interconnected.

00:59:11.120 - 00:59:35.270

So that, you know, like, our little concerns and the, the, the world around a tiny animal, like an ant, or a flower

00:59:39.400 - 00:59:56.020

is related to the stars, everything, the vastness. So, I think that my work has always been related to that,

00:59:56.310 - 01:00:10.270

but without knowing it in a way, and now it's a little bit more conscious. Yeah, it's definitely so beautiful you're connecting, like Taoism, with your work as this relationship with man,

01:00:10.610 - 01:00:24.180

body, and nature. And I definitely want to touch upon your signature work "Synecdoche," although I know, you probably get asked this all the time. How is this project going?

01:00:24.180 - 01:00:41.460

Like it's an ongoing work as I understood. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it's ongoing, but not very consistent. So it's just, I think of it as one large— Well, it's one

01:00:41.460 - 01:01:00.670

project but I, in some ways, I think of it as a very large painting, as well, made, made of lots of little paintings. And it's simply lots of little examples of my observation of various

01:01:04.320 - 01:01:22.300

humans, skin coloring. And so, I never thought of it this way, but just because you mentioned Taoism, just before asking that question, I think the

01:01:22.470 - 01:01:37.600

color, the various colors on our body are, are one thing that remind us how we belong to nature. You know, we, we try to

01:01:37.680 - 01:01:59.060

change that by changing our color by wearing makeup or whatever, or wearing clothing. But you know, after all, we are, we are natural beings as well; we are animals. And we, as much as we try to separate ourselves from

01:01:59.060 - 01:02:18.350

nature, which is been very strongly in the last centuries, we are very much a part of nature and will go back to nature inevitably, whether we do it willingly or

01:02:19.700 - 01:02:34.900

unwillingly. Each of us and all of us will. Yeah, certainly coming from and returning to nature as well. And I really adored this kind of

01:02:35.170 - 01:02:49.300

monochromatic– chromatic, like, the characteristics of our skin that you represented in this work. And I, I also really resonate with like, what we do with oral history, that we are kind of trying to

01:02:50.560 - 01:03:03.340

paint portraits of each person, like now we're doing with you and trying to weave through all these little details; and I feel like... Yeah, yeah, yours, your your

01:03:05.470 - 01:03:22.390

process is much more detailed than that, my process in that particular work, 'cause it's... One, one aspect of it is that I didn't, I didn't, I needed to be

01:03:22.660 - 01:03:38.020

very practical. So I know everybody has obviously many colors on their body. But I chose, I chose just one color. Whether it was like one color that I'm

01:03:38.470 - 01:03:53.730

focusing on or like, an average of color that I'm seeing on a person's arm, let's say. That was the way that I had to decide to do it. Otherwise, it would become a completely different work.

01:03:56.550 - 01:04:09.110

And your project has, this project has so much more nuance to it. But it's similar, actually, because I just would sit with somebody for half an hour, an hour.

01:04:09.510 - 01:04:30.780

And there was often like, it wasn't, of course, it wasn't there was not a formal interview. But there were questions going back and forth, usually, and; but the only recording was this color.

01:04:32.720 - 01:04:47.350

And whatever we can remember from those meetings, which is at this point, from my end not so much. Although in the first couple 100 meetings, it

01:04:48.140 - 01:05:02.990

was really surprising how much I could remember; but now there are 500, and not so much that there's so many of them, but like so much time has passed that it's hard for me to remember all the encounters.

01:05:07.110 - 01:05:26.320

Thats interesting, and what are some of your most memorable sitters, if you wouldn't mind sharing a few? For some reason, I remember a mom who came with her son to the Whitney Museum when I decided to do

01:05:26.320 - 01:05:42.240

that. Recently, I made more some, I made some maybe 70 or so more, "Synecdoche" panels there. And she was just really happy. I think she was particularly happy to see an Asian American

01:05:42.240 - 01:05:58.290

artist working in the museum. I don't know that she knew my work. But she herself was... I can't

01:05:58.340 - 01:06:10.050

remember. I don't think she was Korean. I think she was Chinese, ethnically Chinese, and her son was half Chinese and half Western. And

01:06:14.630 - 01:06:30.940

yeah, I remember that really clearly. But you know, there are a lot of artists that I did, partly because of the Whitney, the Whitney commissioned me, a curator at the– at the Whitney commissioned me to do 40 of them.

01:06:31.370 - 01:06:48.500

Made, made, and quite a number of those individual subjects came by assignment, like by commission. So I really like it when I don't have to decide myself who to choose to paint.

01:06:49.320 - 01:07:04.990

So even when I am deciding I just do it very practically like who, who... I go somewhere to the park or to the Whitney Museum and just whoever comes to me, that's who I'm doing. I don't I never go and

01:07:04.990 - 01:07:21.940

try to find any particular kind of person. So yeah, there's a my encounter with Vija Celmins, who is our, I could very well have mentioned, and I should have mentioned when you asked me about artistic

01:07:21.940 - 01:07:37.250

influences. She's a great artist, mostly painter. And my encounter with her skin color was really memorable. And I wrote an essay

01:07:37.250 - 01:07:58.420

about it in, in, in the one small amount of craft that's been written about my work. And oh there's so many it's really hard to... I mean, I said that I— out of the 500 or so they're

01:07:58.720 - 01:08:09.910

very few. I mean, it's it's hard to remember everybody, for sure. But there's so many that I remember, there was, a two security guards at

01:08:09.910 - 01:08:30.800

the National Gallery of Art that I remember in particular. One was that he, because he was so outgoing. And the other one who was opposite, not very outgoing, but she carried a gun. And she

01:08:31.740 - 01:08:46.500

had been, she was very familiar with the work because the, the National Gallery owns a big part of it. And she said that her– her skin color was not represented in the work yet.

01:08:46.760 - 01:09:03.870

And so she was really happy that it was finally going to be represented, which was a very interesting point of view. Because it's true, even if I made 500 or 400 at that time, not every skin color

01:09:03.940 - 01:09:23.820

would be represented already, which is just an astonishing fact, I think, because of the very limited biological factors, or vectors that create

01:09:24.180 - 01:09:43.180

our color are the color on the surface of our bodies, very few, very few factors, including three kinds of pigment. But of course, other things like the color of our blood and so forth.

01:09:44.050 - 01:10:03.960

But it's just amazing how many different colors result. Yeah, I did see a video of you trying to like— some of them, you have to use like more than 30 something colors to try to come up with the one pigmentation.

01:10:05.600 - 01:10:16.900

I think theoretically, I should, I should be able to do it with just three, three or four or five. But sometimes when I'm tired, especially it takes a lot, because

01:10:19.400 - 01:10:30.570

I'm not thinking very logically. Yeah, thank you for sharing that process. And I'm also wondering, with the... you also painted bruise, like the

01:10:30.910 - 01:10:49.080

kind of things that were related to pain and wounds on the body. What are those kind of different, in terms of how you painted the skin color? Oh, they were... In terms of the "how," they were

01:10:49.470 - 01:11:04.370

very different. Because for the most part those paintings about bruises, or, or where the fabric was... the coloration, the color was made by dyeing the fabric. So the color

01:11:04.370 - 01:11:17.860

was actually in the fibers of the fabric; whereas with “Synecdoche” it's on, it's on a wood panel, and it's it's oil paint on the surface of the panel. So it's a color that's on the surface as opposed to be...

01:11:18.080 - 01:11:35.780

So, with those bruise paintings, I wanted it, the process of making the painting to be a little bit similar to the subject matter, meaning I wanted the color to be inside the

01:11:36.340 - 01:11:47.140

material itself. So, it involved you know, taking the fabric off of the painting and dyeing it, and, and, you know,

01:11:50.040 - 01:12:08.580

it was all either natural dye or pigment, mostly natural dyes, such as madder root or Indigo or sandalwood, or lots of things, logwood... different– different kinds of wood, or roots, or– or even

01:12:08.650 - 01:12:25.810

flowers. A lot of— one interesting, one interesting side note to that process was that: a number of my dye materials came from the Chinese

01:12:27.960 - 01:12:45.980

pharmacy. So, Chinese herbal doctors’ pharmacy. I got them in, I got them in Seoul, Korea, although I'm sure if I

01:12:45.980 - 01:12:57.490

went to any major city in, in China, I could find the same area with all the Chinese medicine. So for instance,

01:13:00.530 - 01:13:16.160

gardenia flower makes a beautiful yellow; and sandalwood makes a really amazing red; and I don't know what medicinal properties those two,

01:13:19.660 - 01:13:31.880

those two materials have. But I got the dye material from the pharmacy. In other words, they were not, I suppose in traditional

01:13:32.360 - 01:13:50.440

Chinese medicine, the color has, is also a factor, but I don't think it's the main thing. So in other words, it was just sort of coincidence that I could get these materials in abundance at the pharmacy, as opposed to the

01:13:51.900 - 01:14:06.810

art store, let’s say. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that process. And I'm also wondering what the kind of intention from the skin color to the bruise?

01:14:07.520 - 01:14:24.280

I'm not sure if there's one thing connected to another with... Yeah, well, they were— sorry to interrupt you. But they were about 20 years or more apart, beginning those, those skin color paintings, and then the bruise paintings.

01:14:26.260 - 01:14:44.090

And so they're related just in the way that is implied by your formulation of your question, because they're both having to do with human skin, right? Or the human body. But um, I think that easy,

01:14:45.150 - 01:15:02.590

quick answer to your question has to do with the fact that I saw the bruise as something both— I was going to say ugly.

01:15:02.710 - 01:15:20.250

I guess I can say ugly, and beautiful at the same time. And I'll explain myself by... Well, the first time I ran across that notion of the bruise being not just a sign of violence,

01:15:21.980 - 01:15:39.980

or kind of difficult, ugliness, was in a poem by Carl Phillips, and he's a contemporary American poet who's about my age.

01:15:42.190 - 01:15:57.350

He, in the palm of his called, "Alba: Innocence,"1 Alba- colon- innocence. There's a description of, he's waking up, and the

01:15:57.930 - 01:16:10.350

morning sun is coming through the window. And he's beside him is his partner, and, or his lover, whoever, whoever it happens to be with.

01:16:11.180 - 01:16:27.700

And he notices a bruise on this person's body. And he's then trying to imagine the different colors of the bruise the different colors that the

01:16:27.760 - 01:16:41.550

bruise will go through as it heals. So he imagines these colors, and he can't quite imagine, you know how you can't visualize a color, often, without seeing it,

01:16:42.980 - 01:17:02.160

literally seeing it; so then he closes his good eye and looks out the window with his weak eye, at the autumn leaves falling, and that's how he is able to imagine the colors better. So that was just a very long explanation,

01:17:03.400 - 01:17:18.470

a very long description of a very short moment in that poem. And it made me realize how beautiful that process and how beautiful the colors are.

01:17:19.050 - 01:17:29.120

And then when I went to go find examples of bruises because I was determined not to— as opposed to "Synecdoche," I wanted to make these 1 Full poem in Appendix.

01:17:29.220 - 01:17:46.280

paintings, of bruises, be– be like bruises and not be— related to bruises in the process of their making, in the process of making the painting, and not so much a representation of a

01:17:46.710 - 01:17:57.210

particular bruise. It's not like I'm looking at someone's bruise and trying to copy it. Nevertheless, I wanted to see some examples of bruises so I could just

01:17:57.210 - 01:18:14.100

have them in my consciousness. And the best place like, I was a little worried about going online to find pictures of bruises, because the– the internet can be a source, like a very ugly

01:18:14.490 - 01:18:35.310

images that you don't want to find, even. But I actually the best source for bruises for my purposes, all in one place tend, ended up being in a place that was not an unhappy place, which is that roller derby players.

01:18:36.410 - 01:18:49.050

I don't know if you know what roller derby is, but it's a sport. I don't know if it's played by men and women, I guess so. But women are more famous for playing roller derby,

01:18:49.450 - 01:19:02.850

and it's on the play on roller skates, and they go around in this rink. And there are two teams. And it's a little bit like pro wrestling. Like it's, it's more theater than sport.

01:19:03.490 - 01:19:22.120

And they, and they are part of it is that they hurt each other. But it's not. Actually now I'm realizing maybe it's a little bit related to like BDSM like bondage and that

01:19:22.280 - 01:19:35.310

culture. Anyway, if you go online, you can find these athletes, they're very proud of their bruises. So they have lots of

01:19:35.440 - 01:19:45.450

images of their bruises. So a lot of times the bruises come from falling down. So this like huge bruises on their, on their hips and backsides.

01:19:46.320 - 01:20:02.420

So, and they're really happy and proud of them. So they just post them on the internet. And so that's where I found some of the ideas of the imagery.

01:20:04.550 - 01:20:23.250

And, of course, you know, I'm talking about this subject matter in a very, kind of neutral, or, or, or not so challenging, difficult way, but while acknowledging that

01:20:23.410 - 01:20:41.890

the main, the main connotation of the bruises is violence, and a kind of ugliness. And, and I knew that when, if, if I put these paintings out in the world that they would be seen, mostly

01:20:41.970 - 01:20:58.670

from that point of view. And so yeah, so that was a good... it's a, it's, I'd never go, although I am like, somehow, sometimes purposely take

01:20:58.670 - 01:21:11.460

a naive point of view. I wasn't naive to the, to the notion that they would, these paintings would be looked at in a– in a particular way.

01:21:12.210 - 01:21:29.550

And so when I had the first show of them, it was happened to be right at Trump's inauguration. And also, not that long...

01:21:32.970 - 01:21:54.330

I'm trying to get the timing right, I think I was, I was making them during the previous period, during the Arab– so called Arab Spring. So people were, like, very much assumed that I was making some

01:21:54.430 - 01:22:11.250

kind of commentary about what was happening in the world. Also, Black Lives Matter protests and issues were coming starting to come up very strongly. So those

01:22:11.250 - 01:22:31.690

things are definitely related to what I was thinking about with that work, but they weren't the initial impetus for making the work. But you welcome the different interpretations of your work in relates to

01:22:31.690 - 01:22:47.680

social justice? Yeah, for sure. I do that I think probably, you know, I have never said this before. But honestly, like, I welcome it very strongly, because maybe I'm afraid to go

01:22:47.810 - 01:23:04.500

there very directly, myself in the beginning. So in other words, I have kind of like the excuse of that poem, of the, I don't want to call it an excuse because I was reading that poem. And it was a beautiful moment of visualizing

01:23:07.800 - 01:23:27.760

through words, that moment in the poem and in my life. And so it's, it's like I didn't, I– I'm

01:23:28.270 - 01:23:46.650

only I'm only thinking about this for the first time now, but maybe sometimes or maybe often I will, my mind will come

01:23:49.830 - 01:24:07.750

figure out a version of a subject matter that's not so challenging, like, acceptable to me; so that it's not so painful, so I can– I can face it and I can, can– can use that subject matter as a

01:24:07.930 - 01:24:20.040

subject for painting without it being so fraught. And then it can continue with that work. And then, and then other

01:24:20.040 - 01:24:37.150

people can, can interpret it in, in different ways. Yeah, that's really empowering. And also, I remember you, some of the works in your "Sunday series," you

01:24:37.150 - 01:24:54.030

had, you definitely advocated and had voices with kind of a more political comments. And like, those are kind of voluntary interpretation for like, the more politically

01:24:54.710 - 01:25:12.310

and more socially engaged side of your works, right? Yeah, maybe that's the one place for, it can become more direct. I mean, most of the time, I'm talking about things in those paintings that are not very controversial,

01:25:13.130 - 01:25:27.120

or, or political or are having to do with social justice, but occasionally I do. And so maybe, that becomes much clearer

01:25:27.630 - 01:25:44.880

when I, when I do that. A curator just asked me if I would hold on to the last year of those paintings,

01:25:48.610 - 01:25:58.560

because she was interested in proposing them for some kind of curatorial project. I guess she just said project, but I didn't— this is somebody who I really trust, so I didn't question it.

01:25:59.390 - 01:26:13.080

And so I'm wondering whether it's for that reason, like, so much has happened in this past year. But a lot of, you know, like, what, when I realized that that might be the reason for showing all these, you know, 50

01:26:13.150 - 01:26:31.460

paintings or whatever, all, all in the same same moment. I was thinking, “Well, you know, all this stuff is going on in the world, but I don't talk about it every week.” You know, often it's just, "I went swimming," you know,

01:26:33.330 - 01:26:49.180

"I had lunch." Because, and that's like, to me, I don't I don't know that much about Taoism. But like, that's one of my takeaways from the little bit of reading, reading

01:26:49.900 - 01:27:07.990

Zhuangzi2. You know, just like, there's these big vastly important things, and then there's just our little very unimportant lives and that's, it's or even less than that, you

01:27:08.570 - 01:27:23.740

know, nonlife too, it's all, it's all connected somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely your work, as I heard a lot from— that would evoke a sense of sublime.

01:27:24.530 - 01:27:37.410

And how the nature can wow the human beings as how, yeah, like grand and overwhelming they can be. Have those been part of your

01:27:37.470 - 01:27:54.550

sources of inspiration? I also remember you mentioning, being out in the sea and swimming, many times you encounter nature.

01:27:56.130 - 01:28:06.670

And, and what...? Yeah. I'm sorry, I got distracted. I didn't, I didn't hear the question. Were you asking about how?

01:28:07.850 - 01:28:17.960

Sorry, can you ask the question again? Sorry, it was a little long. I did that, too. So yeah, I was just interested in the way how you, kind of,

01:28:18.660 - 01:28:33.450

transition from body to nature, and how the nature can be part of your work. And what was that transition came from and how this sense of sublime became a source...?

01:28:33.450 - 01:28:48.500

Oh, yeah. Oh, I almost feel like that question— maybe that's why I blanked, because it was too big a question. I almost feel like that question could be the whole interview, like I could try to answer that question for

01:28:48.500 - 01:29:05.730

90 minutes, and I would be unable to. But I think that the sublime in terms of our relationship to nature was very much in my mind when I started to become an artist, because the most important, the

01:29:06.060 - 01:29:21.750

most important influence aesthetically, in my early life, was from the romantic— the so called romantic poets.

01:29:24.040 - 01:29:38.580

You know, Wordsworth— especially Wordsworth, but Keats, Coleridge, Blake, English Romantic poets, that's what I studied a lot in college. And then also the American transcendentalists, you know, like Emerson

01:29:38.580 - 01:29:54.610

and Whitman, and I don't think Emily Dickinson is included, but I would like to include her as well. They were very influential. But I think that, because

01:29:54.610 - 01:30:19.550

I was so involved with that as literature, I wasn't really somehow— joining that with nature, with, with its relationship to nature, obviously, it has so much to do with nature; but like, nature in my life was not so integrated yet.

01:30:20.220 - 01:30:30.370

And so it's only in my old age now that I feel how important nature is. And so I don't think about the sublime so much anymore.

01:30:30.370 - 01:30:47.780

And partly, maybe because it's too obvious, but like, and this goes back to the recent, the answer to the previous question. So sometimes, I,

01:30:49.720 - 01:31:05.300

seizing on a subject matter that doesn't seem so... like it's the more palatable version of a difficult and challenging subject matter, just so I can approach it without fear or pain.

01:31:05.920 - 01:31:20.780

And so like my current subject matter, which is— there are a few examples in the show at the Moody. It, they just appears to be like, in kind of imagined lands as ocean, you know.

01:31:20.780 - 01:31:35.520

You mentioned that I've been doing a lot of swimming. So like, and I'm working on some now actually in this room. And, to me, the bigger subject matter has to do with the

01:31:36.880 - 01:31:51.060

way that we impact our Earth, or, you know; we, in the media, we know it as climate change. But I don't really talk about this work as, like my

01:31:51.120 - 01:32:03.770

"climate change work" or, and I don't talk about those bruise paintings as like "social justice work-paintings" or something like that. But it's the first time in

01:32:03.770 - 01:32:18.710

a way that I've talked about this, because I never articulated to myself this way. But, you know, I need to have a way of making work about a painful subject that's not so painful.

01:32:20.000 - 01:32:37.230

So, you know, I think the sublime actually as a great subject involves— pain is a little bit too specific, but like involved, it definitely involves

01:32:41.280 - 01:32:57.580

some negative emotions, like fear. You know, it's not just, "Oh, you know, beauty, just beauty." There's like, if there isn't beauty mixed with fear, for you know, that's,

01:32:58.870 - 01:33:06.150

those things mixed together, 2 Or alternative romanized “Chuang Tzŭ”. make something like "Awe," you know, everybody uses the word "awesome" all the time. And so that word

01:33:06.150 - 01:33:20.870

doesn't mean anything anymore. But when it used to mean something, it was what, maybe I'm most interested in my work. That kind of subject matter.

01:33:23.010 - 01:33:38.850

Next, I'm curious what you think art should be universally understood, or it should be more applicable to the artist personally? Oh, I'm not sure what you mean.

01:33:43.410 - 01:33:53.230

Yeah, sorry, I should clarify further. Like, should artists make art for...? Oh I see. Yeah.

01:34:01.030 - 01:34:13.330

I think either way is fine. If the artist makes art, for everyone, it's fine. And if the artist makes art just for themselves.

01:34:14.280 - 01:34:30.120

It's fine. Or, just for one person. Or... even for nobody. There should be that much freedom. Yeah, I totally understand.

01:34:30.140 - 01:34:47.160

And make some, I'm sure you came across this kind of representation question a lot, that when people mention you, you're probably a lot of times kind of labeled as "Korean American" or "Asian

01:34:47.490 - 01:35:02.180

American" artists. I'm wondering what you think, whether it's okay to categorize artists by race? And if so, to what extent? Hmm, that's a tough question.

01:35:03.650 - 01:35:21.610

I would, I would like to answer that it's not okay; but that's not a realistic answer in my mind. I think that we live in a world where it's still very, these categories are

01:35:22.520 - 01:35:41.940

very much still in play. And it would be very interesting to live in a world with no, none of these categories.

01:35:46.510 - 01:36:02.010

Yeah, it makes me very emotional just even think about it. But um, I, I don't think it makes, it, it's possible any time

01:36:02.460 - 01:36:12.810

soon. That's not to say that we shouldn't strive towards that. So I don't know how to answer that question. I want to answer the question

01:36:12.810 - 01:36:28.260

that it's not okay. But on the other hand, that's just how the world is now. So in some ways, it's helpful and comforting to some people to have these categories.

01:36:29.220 - 01:36:49.140

And I completely understand that. It's, it's comforting. It brings comfort to the people who would use these categories in a negative way, and in a positive way.

01:36:49.960 - 01:37:09.190

So I guess I would just say that it's, it's, it's something that we have to live with for now. Yeah, definitely. And I feel like with the uprising conversations on this topic, it

01:37:09.370 - 01:37:21.240

definitely deserves time for us to dwell on this. And, and the next part, it's a two part question. So what is the most misunderstood aspect of

01:37:21.690 - 01:37:39.290

Asian American artists by non Asian American audiences? And the second part is, what is the most misunderstood by Asian audiences about Asian American artists? I'm curious to see your answer.

01:37:40.730 - 01:37:59.950

Wow, that's really hard. Yeah, we talked about the representation like, like artists kind of had the burden to be representational and expected to appear in certain ways.

01:38:02.580 - 01:38:18.600

Like, what were some of the things that you wish that weren't part of that burden? When people look at your work? Um, I don't know, I guess occasionally I've made work

01:38:19.920 - 01:38:38.830

that is related to my cultural heritage. And so when I'm making that kind of statement,

01:38:39.780 - 01:38:57.370

then I understand that it makes sense to take that into consideration. On the other hand, most of my work, it doesn't really come into play, that much or at all.

01:38:57.810 - 01:39:15.780

So then I wonder whether it makes sense to take that into consideration at all. And so, I don't know, I just assumed that people don't take it into consideration that much when they're looking at my

01:39:15.890 - 01:39:25.870

work. But that might not be true. Maybe that's all they think of is the fact that I'm a Korean American artist. So

01:39:32.890 - 01:39:57.900

as far as— was the first question, part of the question having to do with like, the audience, the American audience for, for, for Asian American artists? Yeah, so I don't think, I don't think, unless

01:39:59.940 - 01:40:15.800

the artist is making a point of being an Asian, Asian American artist in their work, I don't think that it should matter that much or at all, it shouldn't come into their understanding

01:40:17.190 - 01:40:42.650

of the work. I guess I can I— maybe this seems like an easy way out of the question, but I guess I have the same answer about people from outside of this country, also, how they think

01:40:42.650 - 01:40:55.950

of Asian Americans. It's easy for me to answer that way, because I don't think most of my work has to do with that subject matter. It might be a very different answer for, for an Asian American artists whose work

01:40:55.950 - 01:41:10.480

is a lot about being Asian American. You know, then I don't know how they would want to answer that question about that way. But I'm just

01:41:10.480 - 01:41:18.420

answering it for myself. So, that's my answer. Yeah, totally understandable. And thank you for sharing.

01:41:19.310 - 01:41:45.300

And I'm also curious, what do you think about the representation of the Asian artists in-in America? Did it, does it need any change in your opinion? I think yes, definitely, just in the sense that Asians, Asian

01:41:46.320 - 01:42:04.490

artists, Asian, artists of Asian descent, in whatever creative field should be represented more equitably. I think that we are, are

01:42:05.040 - 01:42:21.130

very underrepresented. And depending on which field it's can be quite severe. Like, you know, you see I guess we see slightly more agents in

01:42:21.130 - 01:42:36.950

the entertainment field, for instance; but it's crazy how, how little what percentage in relation to— I mean, I don't even know any statistics, but just by my viewing

01:42:38.310 - 01:42:57.850

media of Asian, Asian in the entertainment field, relative to, I'm not sure, the number of people who are trying to gain access to that field is extremely low.

01:43:01.390 - 01:43:21.990

And I'm sure the same thing goes for my field. There are not that many Asian, there aren't that many Asian American artists that are, that are...

01:43:28.600 - 01:43:50.010

that have access to the, kind of the, machinery of the art world. Interestingly, though,

01:43:50.480 - 01:44:09.420

there are there seem to be, like the number of Asian, Asian American workers in a certain aspect of the

01:44:11.890 - 01:44:25.970

field is, seems fairly well represented such as museum curators. But I don't know, I haven't seen

01:44:25.970 - 01:44:44.640

statistics about that. So I might be wrong, but seems better there than in, among artists. Thank you for sharing. Next I'm curious, what are some of your advice to

01:44:45.170 - 01:45:14.190

the younger generation of artists, or specifically the AAPI artists? I guess to, not to take no for an answer. And also to just

01:45:15.490 - 01:45:35.150

keep working. And I think it's a good idea to keep together, you know, keep— I mean, sounds maybe contradictory or paradoxical, but like, I think it's good to

01:45:38.610 - 01:45:56.580

stay in touch with people with whom you find common ground. And it's important to just stay in touch, and keep in touch with, you know, a group of friends that you,

01:45:58.260 - 01:46:12.210

you feel close to, and that's how, that's how things are gonna happen. And the rest will, I hope the rest will take care of itself.

01:46:13.190 - 01:46:28.670

You know, you have to spend a lot of time with your work, a lifetime of care with your work. And that just goes without saying it doesn't matter whether you're Asian, or who you are, or what field

01:46:28.670 - 01:46:55.250

you're in. So that advice I don't even have to give. Yeah. Just keep trying. Yeah, thank you for sharing! Next I'm thinking moving on to more of your personal life side.

01:46:55.950 - 01:47:11.460

What do you do outside of work and how do you manage work life balance? Oh, so much of it has been devoted to family in the last, especially, well,

01:47:12.930 - 01:47:29.030

my whole life. But you know, I guess my, our oldest kid, my wife, Lisa Segal is also an artist, a very good artist, and she and I have three kids,

01:47:29.120 - 01:47:47.340

and the oldest, Emmett is 20... He was born in '93. So he's gonna turn, he's gonna turn 28 here soon.

01:47:48.290 - 01:48:09.800

And so that you know the last 30 years has been a lot of it has been about this relationship of this family, and so it, a lot of so

01:48:09.800 - 01:48:26.600

much of it can derives from that, my personal life. But, of course, there's also my art life, which has to do with making paintings mostly and teaching.

01:48:28.100 - 01:48:44.800

So I really enjoy teaching. And I've been lucky to be able to teach students who are very ambitious students.

01:48:45.000 - 01:49:05.860

And so, yeah, between those things, and living between New York and California and, you know,

01:49:07.270 - 01:49:24.170

caring for my parents, along with my sister, caring for my parents, takes a lot of, takes care of a lot of that, a lot of my life.

01:49:25.330 - 01:49:39.540

And yeah, when I, when I just said caring for our parents, that sounded a little funny to me, because they've cared for me for so long. So it's just kind of like, giving back in a way.

01:49:43.060 - 01:50:00.000

That seems like a very Asian thing. Yeah, I feel like it's definitely a virtue, as well. And, and I remember, you mentioned in one of your other interviews that you met your wife, and very, like, relatively early on

01:50:00.000 - 01:50:12.750

in your life, and you've been together for all of your life. And, like, I'm curious, what is the secret in sustaining such a long and happy marriage? And you guys

01:50:12.750 - 01:50:29.230

do a lot of things, as like swimming is part of your... Yeah, I think the key is to do things together, but also do things apart. Like, it wouldn't work if everything was together. And so we have our own separate lives.

01:50:30.970 - 01:50:45.750

Even though it seems like everything is all worked together, you know, such as family, and, you know, we've been swimming together. But like, it's morning, she went swimming, and I rode my bike.

01:50:46.660 - 01:51:00.370

And that's just a very minor, kind of simple and silly example. But like, if you carry that through to your whole relationship, it makes more sense.

01:51:00.420 - 01:51:17.350

And it works out better, at least for us. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. And next, I understand we're approaching the end of the interview as we want to be mindful of your time as well.

01:51:18.390 - 01:51:34.810

Could you share with us what you'll be doing the next five to ten years, if you have that in mind? Oh, I just remember making a very silly promise to

01:51:34.810 - 01:51:49.230

myself. And maybe I even voiced it to other people when I was quite young. And it was just off the cuff. Like, I internalized it, but I remember coming up with it.

01:51:49.360 - 01:51:57.590

I don't know. I don't, pretty early on. I don't know why I came up with it. But I told myself that I would be making my best work when I was 60.

01:51:58.980 - 01:52:12.040

I'm not sure why I decided that it seems so far away. And then I'm turning 60 this year. So I just realized, "Oh, I used to say that all the time. And now that means I have to like,

01:52:14.910 - 01:52:31.100

fulfill that promise to myself." So I don't know if I can actually, but I at least I have to try. So what that means is in the next five to ten years, I have to try a little harder, I think.

01:52:32.410 - 01:52:48.710

Because I think during the 20 plus years of raising three kids with my partner Lisa, I was a little distracted from that part.

01:52:51.250 - 01:53:09.960

My work. And somehow it survived; my practice still survived. And I'm super, I'm so, so grateful for that. And so that's what I think I need to do in the next

01:53:10.100 - 01:53:25.590

five or ten years. And then also just try to, I mean, I'm not so capable with this part, but try to help different, difficult and

01:53:25.590 - 01:53:39.630

challenging situations that so many people are going through in our country and in the world right now. And thing that I realized, astonishingly,

01:53:39.630 - 01:53:56.090

recently is that like I can, that can partly happen through my work. It doesn't always have to be through, you know, some kind of activism, but it also can be the other way, it

01:53:56.240 - 01:54:14.710

doesn't have to be through my work. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of things going on this, especially the very heartbreaking, Atlanta shooting, we all heard of about three, four weeks ago, I'm wondering

01:54:15.420 - 01:54:30.520

how it impacted you personally. Yeah, I, you know, when something like that, that severe happens, I have trouble examining it too closely. Because it makes, just,

01:54:33.100 - 01:54:49.770

makes me too upset. Having said that, you know, it makes me realize that Asian Americans are being targeted, in a strange way, that horrible incident in Atlanta,

01:54:53.190 - 01:55:07.760

it both highlighted how, how much hardship and discrimination Asian Americans are going through now; but in some ways obscured it too,

01:55:08.040 - 01:55:23.610

because that was such a huge incident, and it just takes so much attention. So I don't know, I'm not a really great spokesperson for

01:55:26.730 - 01:55:44.680

these issues, but... and just answering your question about how it's affected me, it just makes me, it makes me sad. That's, that's the direct answer to your question.

01:55:45.450 - 01:55:58.880

It makes me want to do something. I don't know exactly what I can do. But I keep, you know, I keep responding to people.

01:55:58.880 - 01:56:16.480

... one student... Yeah. We all have to start small

01:56:19.930 - 01:56:43.740

way... and might... My kids, probably, through school community... Thank you for sharing that. And I guess, last, we invite all our interviewees to join us on a time capsule to

01:56:44.400 - 01:57:00.030

kind of leave a message for the descendants of yours, like your grandchildren and grandchildren's children and so on. What would you like to say to them? I would just like to tell them that we are all one,

01:57:01.550 - 01:57:17.360

whether they're of Asian descent, or whether we are animal, vegetable, or mineral. We're all part of one thing.

01:57:18.410 - 01:57:33.680

And so, just to proceed with that in mind, that's all. Thank you so much. That's really kind, and, and so full of wisdom. Thank you, Byron, for joining us today.

01:57:34.310 - 01:57:36.280

Yeah, thanks so much to you, too.