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Today is November 24th, 2020. My name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today we are interviewing Dr.

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Atul Mohan Salhotra, who are very generously spending his time during Thanksgiving week to share with us his life stories. Thank you so much Atul.

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You're welcome. Yeah, to start, can you share with us when and where were you born? I was born in a town called Shimla in November—in September 1958. And Shimla is a very

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special town, because it used to be the sam—summer capital of the British Empire. And it's located at 7000 feet above sea level.

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They, some of the British explorers in 1850’s, were exploring this area, and they found the climate to be very comfortable and similar to the climate in their country, in England.

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And so they decided they will establish a town here. So that's where I was born. It must be a very beautiful town, then. Yes, it was very beautiful in the foothills of the Himalayas,

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and very, very clean, because there were, one, very few people and two, they did not allow any cars or any vehicles within the city. So everybody had to walk to wherever: to school, to office, for

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shopping, for hospital, wherever. And so, that made the environment very clean. That sounds amazing. Can you also share with us what your

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name mean in your language? Oh, so there, Atul actually means "incomparable" in to— in Sanskrit, whenever you put the word "a," it means the opposite.

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So the second part "tul" means "to compare" and when you make it here, it means incomparable and the second name Mohan, means somebody who is dear to you. That's beautiful. Thank you.

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There is actually a mythological story about the last name too, if you want to hear. Yeah. Yes, please. So the mythology is that, you know, when God created horses,

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the human beings realized that horses were very, very powerful. And they used to fly at that time, just like the I guess, the Greek pegasus. So, so the

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human beings prayed to God and said, “It would be great if the horses that are that powerful, did not have wings.” So if there were a beast that was generally created, that would not have wings, so we

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human beings could use them. And the story goes, that there was a, there was a guru or Muni, his name was Shalihotra .

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And he prayed to God, and God gave him the boon. And his request was that the next generation of horses should not have wings. And that's how horses came about.

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And the story goes that we are the descendants of Shalihotra, that-that person, but that's the mythology. Wow, that's legendary. Thank you.

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And can you also share with us the neighborhood you grew up in? Well, um. You said it was the British Empire... Yeah, so the first house that I remember, where I grew up was called Talbert House.

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In Shimla, there were no numbers for the houses. All the houses had unique British names. And that's how the postman, I guess, remembered all the names.

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So that was Talbert House, and there were several homes nearby. And this house kind of had four—it was like a fourplex. And then I remember when I was about

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in the sixth grade— uh, no actually fourth grade when we move to another larger house, and that house was called Stokes Place. And as it turns out, Stokes was the

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British, I think, I don't know whether it was British or an American who first brought apples to India. And otherwise, apples are not native to India. And he became well off, and

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there were four, there was a whole colony of homes, there was a Stokes Place, a Stoke Lodge and Stoke Mount, all named after him. So we grew in that house. And actually, the

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house had like, four bedrooms and you know, living room, dining room, all that, so it was a pretty big house, and the in—and there were four, it was also a fourplex. And I remember our neighbors.

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But the interesting thing was every house came with about 10 out houses, what they called out-houses, or the British called them servant quarters. So, you know, in those servant quarters, which was just like row

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houses, within three minutes’ walk from the house, there was a milk man, a barber, a cobbler, a tailor. And they were all there to serve the people living in this house. So it was kind of an interesting British,

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I guess, traditions that the British house. And, you know, in that house, I don't know who was staying before us.

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But, but my family, my—was leasing that house, so we lived there on rent. But it was one of the British general's house or someone, and he had all these servant quarters. Wow, that's so interesting to hear the term outhouse as a

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colonial term. Could you remember any of the impact or the memories that the, I mean, psychologically, the British colonialism has impacted you and your childhood, or your

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family? Well, well, of course, that we learned English, and I went to an English medium school and a very good school there that is part of the positive aspect of the British legacy.

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But yeah, other than that, you know, it was just a beautiful city to grow. Of course, I know the British history. And there were a lot of negative things that happened too.

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But for me, personally, I guess I benefited, and my family, all my siblings benefited because they had established very good schools, for their bureaucracy in Shimla.

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And so, you know, it was very good education. And I remember all my teachers were like, Irish brothers and nuns. So, yeah, so I benefited from, in that narrow

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space. So the British colonists are primarily from Ireland, that you call them Irish? No that-that school happened to be run by Irish brothers. So I think it was some portion of the

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church that established that school, and there were other schools that were by different, I guess there was Catholic, different Christian denominations, but mine happened to be run by Irish brothers.

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I see, thank you. And is that school a mixed Indian and English school? Or is it segregated back then? No-no-no-no, that time, this was after the partition, because

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India got independence 1947, and I was born in 58. So there were no British left. Only a few teachers.

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There were two or three teachers who were the, who decided not to go back to England and stayed there, but mostly, they were Indian students and Indian… But it was only a boys school.

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I see. Sorry about that. Thank you. Um, and I was just wondering what are some of the childhood games that you play during— You know, we didn't have too many

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equipment. So, of course, in the school, we played cricket and we played football, soccer; we call it "football," it was soccer. And badminton.

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Table tennis was not so common. So in the school, we had all those, the equipment, the playground, the badminton courts, and so on. We never played basketball; we never, nobody in the whole

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town knew about basketball. But at home, because it was a very hilly area, so there were no big fields nearby, so we had, you know, games like we

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would play with marbles. And there were just a whole bunch of local Indian games that we improvised. So, and there are, you know, there are Indian names for that, I don't know if that could

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mean a lot. But yeah, we had more, because we didn't have a lot of money to buy equipment, so it was mostly made up games, or just run around and catch each other and hide-and-seek and things

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of that nature. That sounds fun. Can you also describe the values that your parents brought you up with? Yeah, so, you know, it was very

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interesting my, we—I don't remember our parents really making us sit down and say "These should be your values" or something. But it was mostly by—we got our

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values by seeing what they did, as opposed to they're telling us do this and that. So my parents were very hardworking. My dad was a very honest, professionally, you know, in India, there's a lot of corruption and

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so on, that still exists. But I remember, sometimes he would do something good for someone, and they would come with—I still remember box of sweets

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or box of almonds or some gift. And he would make them sit outside and politely take one piece and say, "Okay, thank you very much. And now take it back to

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your family." So he was, so honesty, hard work, integrity. I mean, those are things that we saw our parents and so that's what, I guess, we learned. And then we have, you know, a lot of mythology

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or legends, some people call it religious books, like the Ramayana and Mahabharata. So that was all around us, and we learnt our values from that.

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And then I remember in school, we used to have a school subject called moral science. And that taught us a lot of good things to be truthful, not to steal, and things like that.

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Yeah, these are very important. And how about religion? What role did religion play in your childhood? Well, I'm a Hindu, and we grew up Hindu, and

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Hinduism is a very diverse religion. And, in fact, my mom practiced it slightly different than my dad practiced it. And so we got to enjoy the richness

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of the religion. And both my parents were very spiritual. I remember, not every day, but at least four times a week, we would—the whole family will sit down and pray, prayer together

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for 20 minutes. And I still remember those prayers, which are in Sanskrit. So yeah, religion was just all around us. Unlike here,

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where, for us, Hindu religion is not all around us, so it's a little more challenging for our kids. But for us, it was very simple. Because everybody in the class was—in my class, actually, almost

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everybody was a Hindu. There were a couple of people who followed Christianity. So it was pretty straightforward. And

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we never thought about, you know, "This guy is Christian and this guy is Hindu and this guy is Muslim." I don't think there was a single Muslim person I knew growing up, but it was never an issue.

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So the demographics of the town was pretty much, pretty simple, right? Yeah, the graphics. Yeah, it was basically, if you imagine the side of a hill, and there were homes at different levels.

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And in fact, we have roads like an upper road, a lower road, a middle road. There was a lower bazaar and an upper bazaar. And between the upper bazaar and the lower bazaar, you had to go

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down like hundred stairs. And, yeah, and it was very simple. And every house had a name. So, you know,

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you kind of had to know where that house was, otherwise, there was no way to know it. Because you know, there was a, like I said Talbert House, Stoke house, there was Benmore you know, I mean, it had no, no road.

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And then to give direction was very complicated in those days, and you go there, and you go there, and then you go there. And then you steer back, and so it was very complicated. But we had to walk

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everywhere. So interesting. It's really hard to imagine for our time like everyone drive in Houston. Yeah, we, my, my dad would walk probably three miles to his

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office in the morning and three miles back, maybe four. We, our school was about half a mile. So you know, you just walked, and then

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you carry your groceries as you are, if you go shopping. So it was different. Yeah, talking about grocery, I remember you wrote about your, one of your childhood house chores

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was to grow vegetables. Like, can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. I never thought of it as a chore. But I really—my dad, he came from Pakistan, and we had,

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the family, there was some agricultural background. And so he was very fond of growing stuff. And I was—I would just follow my dad and do what he did.

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And, and it wasn't kind of like a chore. Maybe I said that, but it was, you know, I just liked it. And I developed doing it. And I remember I would come

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back from school and after having a late lunch or whatever, would just run to the field and start digging and planting and stuff like that, or watering. So it was just fun.

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Do you still have a garden these days? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's my hobby, and that's what I do a lot. But I'm trying to get associated with urban gardening and

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PIB, Plant It F-PIF, "Plant It Forward." I don't know if you are aware of those organization, but… So interesting. And also you wrote about your parents coming from refugee backgrounds from

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Pakistan. And, yeah, I kind of remember there's the war between Pakistan and India. And those times were pretty, pretty traumatic as well, must be. So what kind of memories, or from your

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parents, have they described or, yeah, told you about some of the stories? Yeah, so it wasn't a war in 1947, per se; it was just that the

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British, dec—decided to divide India into two countries: India and Pakistan. And Pakistan became predominantly Muslim, and India became

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predominantly Hindu. But before that, there were Hindus all over India. And there were Muslims all over the place that is Pakistan.

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There was no Pakistan, because there was only one country ever. And so when they divided it from what I've been told and from what I've read, and there is a very good book, written by two French authors "Freedom at Midnight," which is amazingly well written

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that I remember reading a long time back. But basically, since my parents were Hindus, the general thinking was they need to leave and go back to on the other side of the border.

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And for the Pakistan, for the Muslims to come on this side. So the-the borders were drawn in Delhi. And then just, I guess from what I hear from my parents was at

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that time a lot of riots started happening. And the riots were not triggered by the British, but they did not control it or stop it. They said, "Oh, it's not our country now.

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And we are leaving. So they are all on their own." So they didn't—they-they could have done a better job. But anyway, that's besides the point. So, so

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my parents basically were in Lahore. And they were newly married, and they just got on the train that they could and got to this side. And the next train that came after that, everybody

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was killed on the way. So basically, a train full of bodies came to India, that train after theirs. It was a very terrible time. It wasn't a war, but it was just people, riots.

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So I heard a lot from that. And they literally came with whatever they were wearing. And so, so that's how they came, and then later on—obviously, I wasn't born.

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So I don't have any memories of that. But in 1965, there was a war with Pakistan. And we used to have blackouts in the evening. And that was the year that we first got a radio in our family, so we could hear the

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news. So, so that kind of had memories of that. But yeah, it was very traumatic for my parents, because they lost everything. And in

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India, you know, during the time of wedding, women, there's a lot of exchange of gold, and my mother left all her jewelry and everything in Pakistan, where they came from.

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And then my brother, my uncles and aunt, everybody came separately. And then my dad, it took him about four months to go from refugee

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camp to refugee camp to refugee camp to find his family. And he was able to get everybody together. But, but they didn't stay in Shimla. They stayed in one of the towns in Punjab; they settled there.

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And my dad had the advantage because he was the only one who had college education in his family. And everybody else was in some business or landowners or traders. And so he—because of his

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education, and because of his job, he was able to—he had the money to go and find everybody and help them settle. So that's that

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story of that generation. And nobody's left in that generation; all my parents are gone. And you mentioned your dad, aft—after he moved to India, he had—he was able to find a job in the

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government. Yeah, it was almost like he was transferred to the same job because he was in the government service like the controller's office. Yeah, they call it Accountant General's Office, so sort of kind of his job

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was just transferred. And that wasn't, like, difficult because of he coming from Pakistan. No-no. Because he was in what became, everybody, all his friends, all his colleagues, everybody

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was pretty much in the same boat. So they just started their life over again. And what was your mother's occupation? No, she was always a house—homemaker, and a housewife, and

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uh… yeah. I see. And I saw you read—you wrote, you have five siblings. We are five siblings.

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Yeah, four siblings. I have four siblings. Great and they're also you—I wrote—I remember you wrote about their high achieving jobs in intellectual like—are they also in Houston now,

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in US? I'm the deserter, so everybody is there in India. And everybody went to graduate school. I have a doctor head of my sister is a gynecologist,

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MD. Her husband is an orthodontist. So they are obviously well settled and and they have very responsible positions. My older brother was head of marketing

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for certain products for Hindustan Levers, which are like the Lever Brothers. So and his wife is an lawyer. And she runs a very, I think the second largest law firm in India in

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trademark and patents. So, and then my next brother, he was very senior person in the Indian railways and the youngest is an, a colonel

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in the army, his wife was a bank manager. So all the women and men work and have had professional positions in my family. Oh, yeah.

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Thank you. And I'm also curious, given India, like, from what I read is a patriarchal society. Like, do you feel that in your household or on your parents' education?

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Um… no. What do you mean, like, in terms of running the house, or in terms of what do you mean by education? Yeah, like family values and the

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emphasis? Yeah, I think, you know, here like in here, we hear a lot about women being not treated as equal, and their pay is less. And there's disparity.

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We-we never had that in India. I don't-I don't know. I mean, a man and a woman in India gets this paid the same; they are doing the same job. So it's very, so that

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concept of—Yes, we are a patriarchal society in terms of, I inherited my father's last name, not my wife's— my mother's last name; she became a Salhotra. Yeah, a lot of major decisions were always taken

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together. So I—we didn't have like a—I didn't grow up as a different my home. But yes, my my mom did was responsible for the house, that was her kind of job, if you will.

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And that's what she did. And my dad would go out and work and that was his job. But everything at home, there was no like, one is better than the other or superior than the other.

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So never like that. Thank you for sharing. But I think the labor was, but the responsibilities were more clearly defined. I think now in society,

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the responsibilities are not clear, so that's why sometimes there is a lot of confusion. You know, it was like, you know, cooking, making food. And was, you know, my mom would do that, because that was

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what she did. Now, it wasn't looked down upon, or it wasn't like negative, but that's how we grew up. And I think if it was reversed, it would be the same. But that is, we knew exactly whom to talk to for what, like

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my mom or my dad. So it was, I think it was easier that time. Now, people are very confused, you know, who makes this decision, is it mom or dad, or both, or if they don't

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agree? I think it was easier that system. Just a different assignment of roles and responsibilities. Yeah, yeah. But there was the important thing is there wasn't that this role is more

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superior than this role. You know, if you think like that, then it's a problem. It was like, this is your role and this is this role, and we work together as a family.

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So I think that makes it easy. Thank you. I'm also wondering, did you—do you know if your parents were arranged marriage too? Oh yeah, and mine too.

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Yeah theirs was an arranged marriage. In fact, yeah, they– they absolutely did not even meet before the marriage.

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So they were like, "You are marrying this beautiful"—my dad would say, like her friends and cousins will tell him, “Oh you're going to get married to this beautiful woman." And that's all he knew and then they got married.

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And they after married, they lived separately for six months because my dad was studying, and he finished his degree and then they got together. It's really interesting to hear in in our time, I guess.

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Yeah, I guess I really wanted to ask that later on. But I'm also curious, do you plan to have arrange marriage for your children as well? Well, I would like to, but I don't think they would agree to it.

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Yeah, I think actually, you know, arranged marriages in the West, people don't have a good understanding of what it is. Arranged marriages in certain villages and certain

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places is almost by force, where nobody, where the girl, typically in India, you mentioned patriarchal society, does not have a choice. So, yes, that happens.

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But that's not a typical arranged marriage. A typical arranged marriage is where the parents of both the boy and the girl or bride and potential bride and groom really sit down,

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they know each other, they know their child, they know their each other, and they say, you know, the two seem to be a good fit. And then they just introduce them. And the veto power is still with the bride

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and the groom. So it's not that arranged marriages, A will marry B. A is introduced to B and then they have to decide whether they want to get married or not.

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And in some ways, it's not any different now, you know, you go on to an app, and then you get matched. And then you see if it will work for you. But it's, it's kind of the same except the matchmakers were the

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parents. And, you know, it was much easier because the parents will do all the homework, you know, and-and only did—if the—so if I'm—I have a son and somebody else has a daughter, I will do

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my homework to make sure that family and the daughter, she is suitable for my child, my son, and they will do the homework for their daughter, to make sure the, there is compatibility.

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So the screening is done. So it's much easier, so you don't go meeting random people; you meet people who have the potential to be together, so I think it's a good system.

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That's really interesting to hear. Thank you. And I guess moving on to your education experience like, so you started

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with one of the most prestigious school in India. Can you share with us some of that experience? Well, I finished my high school in Shimla and that was a very

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established school by the British, St. Edward's School. And I had a great education and great teachers and great friends. And then I went into

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engineering and joined a school called the Indian Institute of Technology in New Delhi, for which there is an entrance exam and I passed that. And when India got independence, there was, in the entire

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country, there was I think one or two engineering schools, only. So one of the first priorities of the Prime Minister of India who was I think, Oxford or Cambridge educated,

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Nehru, was to established engineering schools. So, he decided to establish five schools and collaborated, in collaboration, with five international well known universities.

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So one was IIT Delhi, one was IIT Bombay, IIT Madras, and so on. So, I went to IIT Delhi, which was colla—which was the collaboration was with

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the Imperial College in England. So, that's where I went, and you know, I was staying in a dorm. And it was great because four meals were served on the table to us.

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We didn't have to cook or worry about it. We had a dining room and breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea, and dinner were all served, seven days a week. We didn't even have to pick up our dishes.

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So we would go there, we were served dinner, and we would go back to our rooms and classes. So, so it was, you know, very convenient from that perspective.

00:34:59.830 - 00:35:12.780

So we were 250 plus students in the entire class, which was divided into civil engineering, mechanical, electrical, different , and in the entire class, they were only eight women.

00:35:14.900 - 00:35:32.070

Yeah. So-so we would get very excited if we met a woman on one of the days, one of our girlfriends, you know, or not girlfriend, a friend who was a girl. Wow, did you also have a tuition waiver?

00:35:33.380 - 00:35:49.200

Well, actually the edu—it was a government school. So the school was, the, it only cost about 150 rupees, which at that time, using the conversion at that time

00:35:49.330 - 00:36:11.860

was like about maybe $40 a month? And that included tuition, it included the dorm, four meals served on the table, and all lab fees, so it wasn't much. And I did get a scholarship from my state government, because my

00:36:11.860 - 00:36:25.450

state did not have any engineering college. And because—so they would give a scholarship to students who did engineering outside the state.

00:36:25.950 - 00:36:40.370

And so I got almost 450 dol—rupees. So my education was almost free. And then while I was in school, I used to—we had some Iranian foreign students, and they

00:36:40.370 - 00:36:56.600

wanted to learn English, so I would teach them English. And so I would get some tuition money and stuff, so it worked out fine. That's wonderful. And I also remember you said that you denied, you declined an

00:36:56.600 - 00:37:09.640

offer from Cambridge University. Yeah, we just didn't know much, my parents—I didn't decline it, my parents said, "No, that's not for you." And I said, "Okay." And we didn't know much, you know, no internet knowledge. Was I to

00:37:09.660 - 00:37:26.360

open, if you wanted to know where the England were, you went to a globe and open an atlas and so, so there was—knowledge was very limited. And I guess, also,

00:37:28.420 - 00:37:47.120

like, what kind of clubs do you remember you were with at, you were part of at the institute? Oh so, so we had, like in Rice, you have different houses, like

00:37:48.380 - 00:37:56.530

different dormitories. So all the dormitories that we had were named after mountains. So mine was Kumal house.

00:37:57.110 - 00:38:08.990

And there were students in first year, second year, third year, fourth year, fifth year, and that. So there were about like 300 students in that one building.

00:38:09.790 - 00:38:23.620

And this was our dorm. And the dorm was managed by the students. So we used to have what we call a house secretary, a mess secretary for the food, a cultural secretary and so on.

00:38:24.530 - 00:38:43.110

So I think my last two years, I was the mess secretary. So I was responsible for putting together the menu, buying the provision, the groceries, you know, dealing with the—we had about 13 mess

00:38:46.050 - 00:39:05.990

workers or kitchen workers, I was kind of responsible for them. So that was the one I was really most active in. And I didn't play much sports, you know, I didn't, I did learn some swimming but, but I would always go

00:39:05.990 - 00:39:22.710

jogging. So jogging and—this was the only activity I was other than my studies. Yeah. This is interesting. Oh, I forgot to mention that when you said your parents wouldn't let you go

00:39:22.710 - 00:39:39.760

to Cambridge to study, they also described you as a naughty and high energy boy. Can you share with us some of that terminology like why? Well, I was always up in trouble always. You know, I didn't spend more many days outside the

00:39:39.810 - 00:39:53.100

classroom because my teacher couldn't handle me and they would just say, "Just go sit outside the class" and I guess I'm very lucky I still would get very good grades, but I was just a unruly guy.

00:39:56.300 - 00:40:10.130

But nothing destructive. You know, I don't remember getting mad at anybody or having fights or anything, I would just—I guess—I think, you know, the school—cause

00:40:12.030 - 00:40:26.810

some of was not challenging for me, you know. There—and we only—we didn't have advanced like here we have AP classes and ordinary classes and stuff. We just have one set of classes and education, teaching came very

00:40:27.260 - 00:40:38.480

easy to me. So I was always bored looking for something to do. And that was trouble, harmless trouble, but generally trouble. Wow that's interesting.

00:40:38.480 - 00:40:55.930

You must be really smart for your class. I don't know about that. But, but my parents are you know, this guy can't—nobody can control him. So looking back your school experiences, do you remember some of the most important, like some of

00:40:55.960 - 00:41:09.760

the mentors or people who have been most impactful for your later success, like going to MIT and like being a business founder? And, like, who are some of the most, the biggest

00:41:10.070 - 00:41:24.530

influences in your younger life? I guess, I would always see my dad working very hard. So he was, you know, always there, obviously very positive influence.

00:41:24.760 - 00:41:36.590

And then I guess my teachers were really good. I don't, I can't single out one who had very significant impact.

00:41:37.590 - 00:41:48.590

And we didn't have any counselors, you know, it was like, they would come and teach their course and go home. And they never—we never had any counseling. I think we were very sheltered.

00:41:48.590 - 00:42:05.270

And our general knowledge was very, very limited. So I don't think any one particular person mentored me, but I had like teachers that and there was always this distance

00:42:05.320 - 00:42:17.690

between the teacher and the student. We would even call them "Sir," we would never call them by name. And I think my—when I went to IIT, my

00:42:21.030 - 00:42:35.160

advisor was Professor Robert B. Banks, who is no more, but he was in Thailand, but he used to be, was from Berkeley, a faculty member there.

00:42:35.640 - 00:42:46.440

I-I thought he was just a really smart guy, and he knew everything. So I think, yeah, have I had an image of him as being someone I'd like to be like.

00:42:46.440 - 00:42:59.030

So there were people like that. I don't remember anybody sitting down and kind of saying, "Hey, do this" and advising and mentoring. Things just came easy to me.

00:43:02.460 - 00:43:18.130

That's great. And I'm wondering, we can move on to your life abroad. So you went to grads school in MIT, which is another super prestigious school. Can you tell us how you got into MIT?

00:43:18.310 - 00:43:32.710

What are some of the experiences and probably some of the culture shock, if any, when you initially arrived? Yeah. So actually, before I went to MIT, I went to AIT, Asian Institute of Technology.

00:43:33.310 - 00:43:45.660

And that was actually a bigger culture shock. But it was a nice transition out of India to foreign countries. And then

00:43:45.660 - 00:44:00.060

I came to MIT, there. And I guess I got there because of a very strong recommendation by my Professor Banks. I remember when I finished my graduate study

00:44:00.870 - 00:44:16.810

on my Masters, he asked me, "What do you want to do now?" And I had a very good job, the Sultanate of Brunei , a very well-paying job and I thought my life was set, and then, at my graduation dinner, he

00:44:16.850 - 00:44:30.470

asked me, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "Well, I really like to teach." And he said, "Well, then you better get a PhD while you are young." And so that's what brought me—and he said, "Oh, why don't you go to MIT and get a PhD?" And I

00:44:30.470 - 00:44:47.330

said, "Well, you know, MIT, I haven't even applied there." But anyway, he-he helped me a lot, and that's how I got there. And I—although we, as a family, we were middle class, well off, we didn't have enough a lot of

00:44:47.500 - 00:45:01.710

disposable money. So I had to have full scholarship to get there that I did have full assistantship. So I got to MIT, and I

00:45:01.770 - 00:45:18.620

always, for the five years, I was there stayed in the dorm. And I guess, you know, it was, it was—you know, I—it wasn't a huge culture shock.

00:45:20.020 - 00:45:37.640

I think the studies were, academics were easy for me, I don't know whether that just me or whether it is the having been to IIT and high school I went to, I mean, I didn't think MIT was tough as far as academics

00:45:37.640 - 00:45:51.530

was concerned, the classroom part of it. Of course, the research was a little difficult because it took a lot of time and effort, and it's not clear. But the classes I took, they were all pretty straightforward, simple classes.

00:45:54.890 - 00:46:07.380

So, you know, I remember working hard, but it wasn't terrible, or I didn't have a tough time. And part of it is, you know, memory has a good

00:46:07.670 - 00:46:26.090

way of eliminating the bad memories, and you remember the nice things. But I had very, very good professor, Professor Donald Harleman, who also is no more, and after he—he did his Masters and PhD

00:46:26.490 - 00:46:43.420

and at MIT and became a professor and stayed there for all his career. And when he passed, and I was, I think, one of his last doctoral students. And when he passed away, we actually established a chair in his

00:46:43.420 - 00:46:59.730

name at MIT. So, you know, he was a, you know, a father figure kind of over here for me, a very nice gentleman, his wife was also, she was a housewife, but she would always cook

00:46:59.730 - 00:47:09.790

for students and invite us over to her house and their house. So that was a lot of fun. And there was another professor, his younger

00:47:10.700 - 00:47:27.480

research assistant, whom I've worked with quite a bit. So yeah, life was very pleasant and enjoyable, and really no cultural shocks. Really, I mean, there were many things "Oh okay, this is how they do things."

00:47:27.610 - 00:47:40.810

But yeah, it was okay. And that, knowing the language was a big positive thing. Yeah, definitely. Um, and you said AIT, and that was in Bangkok, Thailand.

00:47:41.100 - 00:47:53.950

That's right. And like, you said, you probably had a bigger Thai—bigger shock in Thailand. Like what was some of the things that caused it bit of tough times?

00:47:56.250 - 00:48:15.370

That was the first time where we had mixed dorms, for example; women and men in the same dorm, I never experienced that. You know, there were a lot more social interaction with women

00:48:15.780 - 00:48:32.860

from many different countries. You know, there were the—in the AIT, the students were only from Asia. So they were Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mexican— uh no, I mean, from

00:48:34.370 - 00:48:50.070

Nepal, from Pakistan, from India, from Philippines, Indonesia, there were like 31 different countries. And just to be, so there were 31 different languages, probably, and we would have a lot of cultural shows.

00:48:50.640 - 00:49:04.400

So it was a very good living in international culture. And on the one hand, it was a shock. And on the other hand, it was very enriching

00:49:05.880 - 00:49:21.610

and gave you a true sense of what the world is. So you know, just the eating habits and dresses and… and it was it was just totally different.

00:49:24.060 - 00:49:38.130

So when I came to MIT, oh, it's not that different. I mean of course, the roads are bigger, and the cars are wider and there's—you know, what else?

00:49:38.850 - 00:49:50.530

Yeah, the news are different, and everything is different. But in terms of diversity and all, I'd already experienced that, so it was easy to fit in. What was some of the

00:49:51.700 - 00:50:07.880

like new food or a recipe you experienced back then that was interesting? Oh, well, Bangkok was very—you mean in Bangkok or MIT? Both, maybe. Oh in in—when I went to MIT,

00:50:09.620 - 00:50:25.090

I was vegetarian. And in the Bang—in the Thai language, there is no word for vegetarian. So I would have to tell the people I don't take

00:50:26.740 - 00:50:40.420

beef, I don't take chicken, I don't take fish, I don't take shrimp, I don't take pork, I don't take this. And then they would always say, "But what do you eat then?" Because at that time, there was

00:50:40.420 - 00:50:54.750

nothing because in Bangkok, everybody is not rich. I mean, there is no concept of vegetarian. So the, the most famous dish that I heard recipe was called American fried rice.

00:50:56.830 - 00:51:10.190

American fried rice, because it was basically rice, with vegetables, and a little spicy. And apparently, when, during the Vietnam War, a lot of the

00:51:11.070 - 00:51:23.780

American soldiers would come to Thailand for a vacation or away from Vietnam. And they also didn't like lot of the spicy food.

00:51:24.400 - 00:51:39.180

But they started taking this vegetable, this dish, then that became popular as American fried rice. So that's the most popular thing, but I love Thai food now. And then, while I was there, I said, “You know, it's very

00:51:39.180 - 00:51:55.060

hard to be a vegetarian.” So I first started taking egg. So I would have omelet that was the most common dish for lunch and dinner, sometimes. So, but American fried rice is good.

00:51:57.030 - 00:52:12.540

Interesting to hear like American being used in that context. That's right. And I guess, what kind of friends do you make? I guess both in AIT and MIT, as both are like kind of

00:52:13.860 - 00:52:35.930

expert—expats back then. Yeah, I think I had a lot of Thai friends. And of course, Indian friends, friends from Philippines. But you know, we lost contact after we graduated because there was no

00:52:35.930 - 00:52:52.150

internet; phone was very difficult to call. So once we graduated, we all separated, and only now, in the last five years, we have an AIT

00:52:52.340 - 00:53:08.400

Whatsapp group. But none of my classmates are in that. So I know only—in fact I don't know a single classmate from AIT; I'm not in touch with anybody from my

00:53:08.550 - 00:53:23.740

class. I was in the Water Resources Department. And it's funny even in my, in this AIT Whatsapp group, there are students from every

00:53:23.740 - 00:53:38.420

department except mine. So my department people have just disappeared. So did you—you said back then you started experiencing

00:53:39.980 - 00:53:57.490

mixed gender dorms? Like what were some of the surprising, I guess back then, that you found out the about the opposite sex? Oh, I found a lot of things.

00:53:58.730 - 00:54:12.240

Many not to be mentioned. But but basically, I think it was—the opposite sex was always a mystery to us because throughout my engineering in Delhi, there

00:54:12.240 - 00:54:24.540

were like eight girls in 250. They were far away. None of our professors were women. I don't think there was any so it was always like a mystery.

00:54:25.440 - 00:54:41.400

And I think when we got to the AIT, and it was a very good social environment, and I think—so for example, one difference was in IIT Delhi,

00:54:42.150 - 00:54:57.560

when we were in a dorm, I mean we would freely—it was warm also, we didn't have air condition, it was very common I'd freely walk around just with my shorts. You know, as with the thing, and in

00:54:59.030 - 00:55:12.910

AIT when I went there, I remember the first few times they I just went out and I said, "Oh my god, what am I doing?" And I'd run back and wear a shirt, T-shirt, or something. So there were like those things which, you know, nothing

00:55:12.910 - 00:55:26.890

major. But but I think that women are not a mystery. They are just like us, they have, want to be friends. And also, I think it was that initial shock.

00:55:31.940 - 00:55:46.400

So I think it, it worked out fine. That's really interesting. I also remember you wrote about the $100 in your pocket that you arrive

00:55:46.490 - 00:56:02.730

at—you arrived at the JP—JFK, and then like, having everything paid for because with your tuition waiver, and the stipend, like how did that help you in terms of becoming who you are today?

00:56:03.390 - 00:56:16.170

Well, I think first of all, we're doing like $46, or whatever. And by the time I got to Boston, it was even less, because I didn't know I had to take a bus from New York to Boston, and then go there instead

00:56:16.730 - 00:56:32.900

of—but I think, you know, I have always been very rich, because I always spend less than what I earned. And I was very rich in Thailand, I was very rich in IIT Delhi, because I had other, you know, I was

00:56:33.100 - 00:56:49.150

teaching kids and my colleagues English. And at the end of the month, I always had extra money. And even now, I feel I'm very rich, but maybe not as rich as I was in MIT. Because then, money meant a lot

00:56:49.220 - 00:57:02.100

more. And but I always had more money than I spent. And so I've always felt that way. And that's very lucky. Not many people can say that.

00:57:02.100 - 00:57:15.380

And, you know, I've had my share of hardships and, but I've never been in a situation where I craved for something, and I couldn't get it. And maybe I just don't have the

00:57:15.500 - 00:57:35.370

cravings. Wow that's really inspiring to hear that your attitude towards money in terms of earning more than less because of your kind of value yours money as a way of like marrying desire versus, yeah,

00:57:37.160 - 00:57:46.800

so that's really inspiring. Thank you. Yeah, I never had that. But, of course, you know, I remember when I finished my doctoral exam,

00:57:47.140 - 00:58:00.020

because to get to the doctoral program after academic, you do that. And when I did that, I got a $50 a month raise. So my $500 stipend I think became $550.

00:58:00.670 - 00:58:14.200

And I was like, so excited. Like, "Wow, I got a 10% raise, and what am I going to do with $50?" So it was always good. Wow, that's really interesting,

00:58:14.700 - 00:58:31.220

and I'm wondering, given your kind of study abroad experiences, both being kind of very diverse in terms of eth—ethnicity, have you at all, at any point in your, in that part

00:58:31.220 - 00:58:46.070

of your life, to be kind of ethnic stereotyped? Or like, kind of, as we are all at terms of in terms of like now kind of Asian being stereotyped as the model minority?

00:58:47.180 - 00:59:04.230

Also the like, being really good at math and all that? I guess back then, in MIT, have you experienced any of that? You know, I think, as a student in MIT, there was no, I never felt that

00:59:06.060 - 00:59:19.840

I was being singled out or different because there were so many international students. I was not the only one. So, but there were

00:59:19.840 - 00:59:34.390

times in my career where I've felt stereotyped and discriminated against. And I think the first time was

00:59:35.460 - 00:59:50.610

when I became an owner in Woodward Clyde consultants, which was the first time, and so we would have a partners meeting. And in the partners meeting, they would invite the spouses, too.

00:59:52.490 - 01:00:06.900

So I walk into this partners—and I didn't know them, the first time I went partners, of course, there was big welcome for me, and he's a new partner and, you know, a certificate and award and all that type of

01:00:06.900 - 01:00:24.650

thing. But once I was in past that in a social dinner or something, it was like, I was the only guy who is a not a white guy here. And so that, that's the first

01:00:24.650 - 01:00:42.180

time in my life that I realized, "Oh my god, I'm different." Nobody said anything, nobody did anything. But that was the first time. And I think going back to MIT, the students were all quite

01:00:42.180 - 01:00:55.390

heterogeneous. And my professors, I guess, they've had a lot of experience with a lot of international students. So they understood us. So there was never an issue, you are Indian, Chinese, or, you know, Mexican, or

01:00:55.390 - 01:01:08.260

whatever, whatever, or male, female; it was nothing. But in the corporate world, I found that a lot. In fact, the reason why I started RAM group was because I was discriminated against.

01:01:09.510 - 01:01:24.640

So I think there is still a lot of discrimination in U.S. If you are an immigrant and you succeed, either you are super lucky, or you are much better than an equivalent

01:01:24.710 - 01:01:37.460

American. That just the way it is in corporate America. In fact, I would not have started RAM group if I wasn't discriminated. And I was so mad, because they picked the quote unquote,

01:01:38.290 - 01:01:51.450

good old buddy white man to be the national director of what I was doing when I was eminently qualified for. That guy would ask me for advice on technical matters,

01:01:51.820 - 01:02:02.460

and then they made him my boss. And I said, "That's not right," and I quit. I literally quit without knowing what I was going to be doing. So that was the most extreme.

01:02:02.780 - 01:02:12.190

It was, again, this silly decision to quit right away. And it worked out for me. But I never planned to start my own company.

01:02:12.190 - 01:02:24.160

It was just that one day when it happened. The next day, I went to my boss and said "I'm sorry, I don't want to work here anymore." So that's the only time.

01:02:24.840 - 01:02:39.820

I think, second, well, second time when I my company was bought by another company, RAM Group. And in their partners, I became a partner in that company and that was even worse, you know, it was, I was just

01:02:39.820 - 01:02:49.210

the one brown guy with, surrounded by all these older white people. They were very nice. But but you do, I did felt very

01:02:52.480 - 01:03:09.070

uncomfortable. And once, once there was another time when there was a senior person in my previous firm, not RAM Group, when we were going to have office picnic for RAM Group, and I

01:03:09.070 - 01:03:19.480

invited him, and it happened to be on a Sunday because that was the best day that worked for me. And he said, "What do you mean, you are going, you are having a Christmas—party on Sunday?

01:03:19.840 - 01:03:30.750

Sunday morning, you're supposed to go to the church. If you don't go to church, you are not a good man. I'm not coming to your party." Okay, we, don't come. We'll have a party without you.

01:03:31.790 - 01:03:46.190

So I haven't found too much. But there have been a few very specific instances. Yeah, wow, that's really interesting to hear that people can be a little bit more single minded.

01:03:47.830 - 01:04:04.280

But you know, I think part of it is the circle in which since I have higher education and PhD all the circle I move in is pretty much all educated people, they've traveled abroad and been around. But yes, in

01:04:04.320 - 01:04:24.520

terms of the corporate world they was a lot of . And you said the WCC, the Woodward Clyde Consultants and that was in San Francisco. Correct. And, yeah, from just learning about, like San Francisco is

01:04:24.520 - 01:04:37.570

also a city of immigrants where the Angel Islands is. Yeah-yeah. So you know, people over there are a little more open minded, but, but certainly, and

01:04:37.570 - 01:04:56.200

you know, that was, we're talking about '81, '82, '83, which was still the beginning of everybody melding together I think so. But socially, you know, outside of that corporate, I've never felt

01:04:56.320 - 01:05:10.340

anything discriminated against or anything. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I'm wondering, as you described this very, like, white male driven

01:05:10.450 - 01:05:28.830

like, senior group, was that just in corporate America? Or do you see that also in other patterns like nonprofits or any other industries that you w— You know, I think it's, I have experienced only in,

01:05:30.980 - 01:05:43.850

in engineering and in engineering, there are very few women. And it's not IT; my engineering is not IT, where there is a lot of immigrants. And you know,

01:05:44.090 - 01:06:01.330

diversity. Mine is civil engineering, which is more traditional. So, and I really, I think, on the outside, in a lot of these organization, there isn't. And I'm not been inside a nonprofit.

01:06:01.330 - 01:06:14.720

So I don't know. Do you see the reason behind that being like people only promote because of they want to see people who are similar to them in mindset?

01:06:15.610 - 01:06:35.220

Or is that like, a kind of trying—is that systematic in terms of... Yeah, I think it is human nature to feel more comfortable with people who look and behave like you. I mean, that's just human nature.

01:06:35.900 - 01:06:55.100

I mean, I come from India, where there are hundreds of different cuisines. There are hundreds of different dialects. There are—people in the north are fairer, people in the

01:06:55.100 - 01:07:07.150

south are darker. It's very diverse. And even in that one country, people from North think differently of people from South and vice versa.

01:07:08.260 - 01:07:29.090

So I think it's natural. But so it's natural, what I'm trying to say it's natural to feel more comfortable when everybody in the room is like you. And I don't think we can—that's

01:07:29.230 - 01:07:43.590

we should we can do anything about it, that just the way it is. But the problem comes where—where, because you are different, I'm going to treat you differently.

01:07:44.730 - 01:07:57.410

That's wrong, in my opinion. Yes, I may not be comfortable with you, because you are of a different culture or background or you live different. But I shouldn't treat you differently.

01:07:58.210 - 01:08:11.080

If the question is who is going to be promoted, it should be based on not what color you are and what height you are, and whether you are vegetarian or non-vegetarian, or now

01:08:11.080 - 01:08:25.570

whether, what are your sexual orientation is, but it should be based on the criteria for that job. So that's where I think the problem is. I think it's natural for people to

01:08:26.470 - 01:08:41.760

be more comfortable when people around them are like them. I mean, that's just natural; that's just human nature. And I don't think—I have no objection to me being treated, not treated, but somebody

01:08:41.800 - 01:08:53.760

looks at me and say, "Oh, yeah, you are different." and, you know, "How do you live?" or "What do you do?" or "What's your character?" I mean, as a curiosity, it's great. But then to not treat the person with respect, that's the bad part.

01:08:53.760 - 01:09:05.220

And I think we have a lot of that in this country, unfortunately. I think it's everywhere. But the last few years, it seems to have become worse. It's really

01:09:05.220 - 01:09:18.500

interesting to hear your like, how stories back then has already started. But also I'm wondering, have you experienced any like, quote unquote "microaggressions" back then? No, I've never had.

01:09:19.730 - 01:09:35.230

Yeah, people thought after 9/11, I would read story that they'd treat you differently. I have never felt that. But you know, but the other part is I'm not sensitive. I know there were a few times they asked me to, you know if, "I want to screen you."

01:09:35.830 - 01:09:42.960

"Okay, screen me, be my guest." You know, I have nothing to hide. So I don't—maybe it's my attitude. Somebody else who's more sensitive

01:09:42.960 - 01:09:55.700

may have said, you know, “He's screening me because I'm Black, or I'm Brown.” I don't think like, you know, the guy wants to screen me, go ahead, screen me, you know, what's the big deal? I have nothing to hide; be my guest.

01:09:55.700 - 01:10:12.460

So I think it's also how you take it. Yeah, that's great to hear you're looking at it as a different matter. And if, you know, somebody apply, says "This is the law, but I'm going to apply you a different

01:10:12.460 - 01:10:29.160

law to you because you are different," now that's bad. But yeah, so I haven't been felt like that. Thank you. Yeah, it's also interesting that since you left the WCC, you were also able to found your

01:10:29.160 - 01:10:44.460

own company, and without that, it wouldn't have added to your success today. And next I’m, I actually just want to rewind a little bit back to when you graduated from MIT. Like, why did you just decided to

01:10:44.490 - 01:10:57.610

stay in the US then back in— Yeah, actually, I wanted to go back. And I wrote a letter to IIT Delhi that I'm finished my PhD, and I'd like to come and teach there.

01:10:59.180 - 01:11:12.980

But they really didn't have a job. And you know, and plus, I was a little hot headed, because “Hey, I'm from MIT, and I got my PhD, and I did very well in my doctoral studies,

01:11:13.030 - 01:11:26.370

and, and so you guys should give me a job.” But they said, "Well, we really don't have a job. But if you come back, we'll give you some temporary job. And then if something opens up, we'll give it to you." And

01:11:26.370 - 01:11:41.550

then I was I, that's why I didn't go back. I think now, at that time, India was very, was not open to the world at all. It was very like, closed.

01:11:42.220 - 01:12:00.200

Whereas now I think there are a lot more people going back, which is very good. That's wonderful. And when you founded that your own company, what was your vision? What did you want to achieve with the company?

01:12:01.260 - 01:12:14.030

Well, actually, you know, I really didn't think much about it. It was like, you know, these guys didn't treat me well. I'm not going back to work there.

01:12:14.880 - 01:12:29.340

So and then I said, “Okay,” so next day, I came home and, and actually my wife said, "So what are you going to do?" I said, "I don't know, let's, maybe I'll form a company." And in fact, I had a CPA, I said, "How do you open a company here?" So there

01:12:29.340 - 01:12:42.770

wasn't any planning or vision or anything, but just, “Let's just do it.” And some of my clients, they said, "Oh, yeah, we work with with Woodward Clyde because of you. So we give you work." So and then,

01:12:43.010 - 01:12:52.550

interestingly, Woodward Clyde, I obviously, you know, it wasn't a planned thing. So it was suddenly like one day I said, "I'm leaving.

01:12:52.550 - 01:13:07.870

I'm not going to be here tomorrow." And so you give me, they say, "You're supposed to give two weeks’ notice," I said, "Well, don't pay me for two weeks", you know, take my, "I'm going on vacation for two weeks, I had plenty vacation." But interestingly, they are, they hired me as a

01:13:07.920 - 01:13:20.670

consultant because I had so many projects that I had brought in. And they said, "We don't know how to do them." Because I had rather a unique practice, and so for six months, they hired me back.

01:13:22.640 - 01:13:39.350

So you know, I really never formed a vision or a mission, I just kind of jumped into the pool and started swimming, and really. And I think, in hindsight, that was probably at

01:13:40.240 - 01:13:55.030

some point, I should have thought more and maybe hired a management consultant or someone because I'm an engineer; I don't have those management, soft skills, and that, and I could have probably had a much bigger company, but I'm happy

01:13:55.470 - 01:14:10.310

with what I have and what I've done. But there was a lot more potential in the corporate kind of thinking, there was a lot of potential in my company that didn't get harvested because I never sat down and thought

01:14:10.370 - 01:14:25.060

“What was my vision,” I was always finished this job, there's another job coming and just enjoy myself doing it as opposed to sitting back and thinking, so there was never a real big mission. Then from a

01:14:25.060 - 01:14:42.870

professional side, the mission was in this country, we spend way too much money on problems, environmental problems that really don't cause much risk. And there are other problems that cause

01:14:43.370 - 01:15:00.700

a lot more risk, and we don't spend enough on them. So I think-I think there is a mismatch between the risk that a problem causes and how much money we throw at it. So my if the professional vision of the

01:15:00.700 - 01:15:17.150

company was always to, to identify the risk, and manage it in the most cost effective manner. That's why the name "RAM group," Risk Assessment and Management, we assess the risk and manage it.

01:15:19.000 - 01:15:38.830

And always the focus was we spend way too much money on perceived problems that are really not problems. Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. And what are some of the most defining moments in your career you

01:15:38.830 - 01:15:56.000

would say, that you would be so proud of, thinking back? I think resigning from Woodward Clyde, that was pretty, pretty big defining moment. I think starting to teach at UC Berkeley, in addition to having

01:15:56.000 - 01:16:14.350

my consulting job, that was a very, very big important thing for me. I guess, in—I was two years, three years, I think, into my profession, then there

01:16:14.350 - 01:16:33.920

was almost like a million dollar proposal that the American Petroleum Institute sent out to the consultants. And I looked at that, and I said, "I'm going to win this one." And my boss, and my

01:16:33.920 - 01:16:45.190

colleagues said, "Oh, that's a pretty tough one." I said, "No, I'm going to do it. But you just stay out of it. And just let me do it.” And I won that. And so that was a very defining part of my career.

01:16:47.220 - 01:17:02.100

So yeah, I think, I think discriminating, discrimination actually helped me a lot in that. Otherwise, I would have probably, I would have been fine

01:17:02.100 - 01:17:14.430

at Woodward Clyde, I mean, there was great company; I was owner, I was senior principal, it would be fine. But because I got out that changed the whole path.

01:17:16.830 - 01:17:32.530

Yeah, that's interesting about life, right, and , something that can make you stronger. And actually, I'm also curious about the litigation support you provided in testifying against some high

01:17:32.580 - 01:17:46.600

profile projects that cost environmental issues and issue with people's homes and their property prices. Can you talk a little bit about that? Which particular one?

01:17:46.850 - 01:17:57.770

There are some, like on your bio you mentioned the litigation support, including testimony in court on numerous high profile projects. Do you remember that?

01:17:58.150 - 01:18:14.070

Yeah yeah yeah. So, you're not—imagine this is the Mississippi River coming this way into the screen. And on this side, there is

01:18:14.720 - 01:18:31.920

these petrochemical complex, and because this petrochemical complex needs crude oil as the source and then

01:18:31.920 - 01:18:49.200

they refine it and make it into gasoline. And in between there is pipes underground, that go from the Mississippi River to the refineries to take crude oil

01:18:49.850 - 01:19:06.620

and gasoline back and then it goes on barges and goes on. So in between the petrochemical complex and the river, there is a village, a housing community, a residential

01:19:07.310 - 01:19:23.060

community, which when this petrochemical was plant was established in the 1900s was the residential colony was established for the workers to live there.

01:19:24.000 - 01:19:40.540

So over the years, these pipelines leaked oil. Because pipelines in those days were just made of iron and they would just corrode and make holes and then when water is, when oil is going in them, it's

01:19:40.540 - 01:19:52.350

like leaking, just like you see sometimes water leak in a water pipe. But this is oil leaking. So there were like maybe 100 plus homes,

01:19:53.140 - 01:20:08.590

and they had basements, and we don't have basements in Houston but they had basements in this community and below them was oil that had leaked. So there was this concern that

01:20:08.750 - 01:20:24.200

vapors from those home, from 10 feet below the ground, would evaporate and get inside the house and people would be breathing petroleum vapors.

01:20:26.380 - 01:20:39.430

So this is a common problem that we tackle. It's called indoor vapor intrusion. The intrusion of vapor from under your house and below the ground into your

01:20:39.430 - 01:20:57.700

room and then it mixes with the air and then you breathe, and then that's not good. So so I think it sounds very scary. But this is

01:20:57.700 - 01:21:14.650

an example of where we spend so much on risk, but the risk is not much. As long as you have a very strong floor and there is some soil below it. You can do some calculations and show whether the risk is high or not.

01:21:15.610 - 01:21:33.680

And, you know, the risk from smoking is far more than the risk from this pathway. So in this particular case, I testified in the court and did calculation, then I've done that on several cases, trying to show

01:21:33.680 - 01:21:50.660

whether there is a risk or there isn't a risk and whether people should be worried about it or not worried about it. So I do some of that. I see. Wow, thank you. I guess next perhaps we can move on to

01:21:50.730 - 01:22:01.470

a bit of your family life. Yeah, so you and your wife met through your parents' arranged marriage. And then I read that the two of you were

01:22:02.660 - 01:22:18.040

apart, like having a long distance marriage one on the east coast and and how did you cope with that, like having being newlywed and being apart? Well, you know, it was, so

01:22:19.170 - 01:22:33.070

my wife and me, I was in California, my wife was studying at the Cornell Medical College, which is in Manhattan. And her parents lived in upstate New York. So, my

01:22:33.070 - 01:22:51.640

parents, the matchmakers had communicated with each other, and my dad asked me that, "Oh, you should go and visit this family." So I said, "Oh, well, okay, I'll get some good homemade food." So I flew from

01:22:52.370 - 01:23:07.280

San Francisco, I had a meeting in Washington, and I spent the weekend in upstate New York. And so obviously, they didn't know who I was. So they put me in a hotel and in the town, and we,

01:23:08.300 - 01:23:19.770

the whole family, my wife, her brother and her parents, they’re four in the family and myself. We had meals together, watched a movie or something. So that's the first time I met this girl.

01:23:22.160 - 01:23:40.310

That was in February or January and then in— why anybody from beautiful California would ever go to Buffalo, New York in the winter still defies me. I mean, it's, like wonder why I did that.

01:23:40.310 - 01:23:53.790

But anyway, that's the first time and then my parents came from India, and they were jet lagged, and they flew to New York, and my, Poonam was in her dorm and we just all had breakfast together.

01:23:53.790 - 01:24:05.440

So very cramped, one little dorm room, and there were eight of us, we just had breakfast together, the seven of us. And then the third night I saw her was the wedding night.

01:24:07.360 - 01:24:20.840

And no communication in between. So, so after we got married, then my parents left for India. Then she came with me to San Francisco.

01:24:22.870 - 01:24:36.080

And I'm wondering all the time, "Why is this girl sitting with me and why she coming with me?" because it was like, we, it was like so sudden and so quick. So then she was, we were together for about a week

01:24:36.080 - 01:24:46.390

or 10 days and then she had to go back to finish her studies. She was there for about six months. And there was very little communication.

01:24:46.390 - 01:25:01.920

We just didn't even know each other that much. So I think couple of times, I visited her on travel there and we talked a few times on the phone but there wasn't much communication because she was very busy finishing her doctoral thesis and knowing

01:25:02.760 - 01:25:16.160

how difficult that was, I didn't want to bother her too much. And then I was busy with my stuff. And so it wasn't difficult, it was pretty quick. I wonder what my wife

01:25:16.160 - 01:25:29.800

will say when you talk to her. Yeah, we'll find out tomorrow. Yeah. What was your first impression of her? I guess it was very crowded.

01:25:30.410 - 01:25:42.170

I guess I had veto power, and I didn't exercise it. So I must have liked her, right? Yeah, and I like the family. They were very nice to me when I was there,

01:25:42.170 - 01:25:59.930

so. Yeah, and you know, it was interesting, when I was in MIT, I used to, you asked me about clubs, I forgot. I debated "Is marriage, the beginning of romance, or marriage, the culmination of romance?"

01:26:01.130 - 01:26:17.720

That was the debate topic that I debated. And I think I was, I debated that, I forget which side I was, but some, but for me, marriage was the beginning of romance. Could you, if

01:26:17.720 - 01:26:33.250

it's okay, can you share with some of the romantic stories between you and your wife? Well, I think... what can I share? I know, I think you'll have to ask her on that.

01:26:34.420 - 01:26:45.680

We are not that romantic. Now, we have a good life. And you know, we understand each other well. I don't think we are

01:26:45.680 - 01:26:59.880

gaga over each other or anything like that. I mean, we've been married that many years, and we respect each other, and this works out. And like, what kind of process do they use?

01:26:59.970 - 01:27:12.380

You mentioned when you're just like finishing the grad schools, and like still being a little bit unfamiliar, but like, how did that work? Like how did you start to

01:27:12.380 - 01:27:26.710

know each other better? And like, was there any, like particular memories that relate to that? No, I think, you know, one thing that really helped were we were both from the same culture and

01:27:26.710 - 01:27:41.680

similar background, and there were no conflicts about food and dress and those types of things, and language, and respect for parents and things of that nature. So there were a lot of common things.

01:27:42.200 - 01:27:53.140

And that helped cemented the relationship. And you know, actually, we're both very professional and busy people. I was very busy.

01:27:53.140 - 01:28:13.640

I was had a full time job, and I was teaching on evenings at University of Berkeley, and I was teaching at University of San Francisco, and she had a postdoc position in the San Francisco Medical College, or I forget the

01:28:14.680 - 01:28:32.510

exact term I know. So so so I think we, a lot of it is being very busy. Memories, I know, California was great, I think nine of the 10 days, we would just sit outside and

01:28:32.510 - 01:28:49.770

have dinner together; we had a lot of fun. And then few times my parents visited, you know, I visited them. So it just, we just grew on each other, and it just worked out. Yeah, that's like the slow

01:28:51.280 - 01:28:59.870

romance, right? It's like... Yeah, I think it's been great. And we have two lovely kids. And we, once they came, the whole

01:28:59.930 - 01:29:15.710

focus shifted on us to the kids. And so that's been a big blessing and out of our kids. Yeah, yeah. And your daughter Pooja wrote some really interesting stories about your arranged

01:29:15.710 - 01:29:33.090

marriages as well and like what kind of family values I guess, have you, you and your wife instilled in with them in terms of their upbringing? I think hard work and being being honest

01:29:33.150 - 01:29:51.070

and truthful. And, you know, treat everybody with respect, that's very, very important. I, I don't think anybody and even some simple things when the lawnmower guy comes, you know, make it a point that, you know, if it's very hot,

01:29:51.070 - 01:30:03.090

make sure he has water, or go out and give him water and things also like simple, everybody has to be respected. Everybody has a job to do. And you know, somebody is, some people

01:30:03.430 - 01:30:15.000

are rich and some are poor, and some are fat, and some are thin, and some at tall, and some are short, and that's it. But everybody has a position this world, and respect them.

01:30:17.920 - 01:30:34.490

The only thing is I really have no tolerance for, for laziness and, and lazy people. So that's the only people I don't like. It doesn't matter. If they are lazy, then I really

01:30:36.010 - 01:30:50.150

don't like them. And luckily, both our kids are pretty hard working to. Yeah, like reading about their stories, as your son is also, has been interviewed by the archive and

01:30:50.150 - 01:31:05.710

your daughter, who writes for the Buzz Magazine about your, like the culture and the family values. And they're really amazing. And I'm just wondering, what are some of the kind of secrets that

01:31:06.270 - 01:31:22.830

you have, and your wife have, in terms of educating your kids? Oh, you know, I, I really don't think, I think about that often and many of our friends ask us, and I think there is really no secret.

01:31:22.830 - 01:31:37.140

It's like, first of all, education is in our traditional family thing. So there is just no choice that you will not go to college or not study. And we are blessed that they both are

01:31:37.140 - 01:31:50.040

intelligent, naturally. So they, they inherited, I don't know whether it's the right genes or whatever way you want to put it, that they didn't have to struggle too much. I mean, they struggle, they worked hard, but

01:31:50.040 - 01:32:02.870

they didn't have to struggle too much. Like certain people are just not good at math, they just can't do it. So we didn't have that issue. So I don't think there is a secret

01:32:02.870 - 01:32:12.790

sauce. I mean, they just saw us working hard, and that's what they do. I think education is very important on both our family's side. And, and they

01:32:12.790 - 01:32:31.530

know that and so you know that's, that's just that there is no ways about it. So I think that's, they just see their cousins, their, everybody's educated and, and they see

01:32:32.030 - 01:32:44.770

us. My wife is a professor, I do a lot of teaching, so they've seen their teach—their parents putting a lot of emphasis on teaching. So I think that also had an effect on them.

01:32:47.350 - 01:33:05.190

Yeah, and seeing, for example, your son Raj, who was in Harvard Law School, and then later that ran for that is very active in civic engagement and ran for city council. Like was it something— that that

01:33:05.190 - 01:33:18.190

wasn't something that a lot of Asian Americans would do. I feel like, like, in terms of civic engagement, Asians are a little less active. And was that something that you encouraged?

01:33:18.860 - 01:33:33.130

Or was it something... I did not. I did not. And you are absolutely right, at some level, I was very disappointed that he did, he got a very good job after Rice at McKinsey, and he

01:33:33.130 - 01:33:50.350

gave up and joined Teach for America. And I was very disappointed. I thought, "Wow, you know, it's $100,000 salary, and, you know, McKinsey is not only the money is good, but the position is very good." And I would tell him, you

01:33:50.350 - 01:33:59.370

know, "Your goal should be the youngest partner in McKinsey." And then he said no, but then he took Teach for America and I was very disappointed to be honest.

01:33:59.970 - 01:34:14.660

However, along the way, when he would come home and tell stories about what he learned and what he saw at Teach for America, it really made me realize that we are just living in

01:34:14.770 - 01:34:25.880

a bubble, and there are all these people out there that need help. And I think he really grew very, as a strong young man. And that was a very positive experience for him.

01:34:26.970 - 01:34:40.730

And then he went to law school, and he got a very good offer from law firms. And he didn't take that and to be honest, I was again very disappointed. But I think-I think

01:34:41.540 - 01:34:56.840

that's my problem. That's my background, that's my upbringing. I think what he's doing is really fantastic. And yes, sometimes I wish, you know, I wish he had a, you know, all

01:34:56.840 - 01:35:11.520

that money coming in and, you know, have a big house in River Oaks or wherever, I don't know, but I think what he's doing, I think is, is very, very, very commendable. And it's one of those things that you are

01:35:11.520 - 01:35:22.580

absolutely right. We immigrants don't think of it. And we want somebody else's child to do it, not my son, or my daughter, you know, it's a very good thing, but let somebody else do the good

01:35:22.580 - 01:35:36.300

thing, you know. But, but I think I'm very, very, very happy that what both our kids are doing that; they are following their dreams. And you know, when your vocation is your—

01:35:36.760 - 01:35:49.200

when your avocation is your vocation, you are a happy person. And that's what hopefully both of them are doing. So I think I've changed after realizing how good it is for them.

01:35:51.350 - 01:36:07.720

Wow, that's really such a strong testimony for, I guess, many of the Asian parents to learn about that we can also be open minded and learn from that next generation too. Yeah, but it was very, very difficult.

01:36:07.720 - 01:36:19.960

It was hard, no question about that. And I still sometimes wrestle with it. But I think, overall, it's very, very good. And I think we are fortunate in this world, not

01:36:20.180 - 01:36:34.910

just in this country, that there are many ways to make a good living. And I think you should make a living that fulfills you more than fulfilling your parents. Much that your parents would like it.

01:36:34.910 - 01:36:49.590

And I think in the end, the parents would probably come around. Unless you do something that is disrespectful or bad, but I think they, we really want our kids to be happy. And I think that's true; I'm speaking probably for all

01:36:49.590 - 01:37:05.950

parents. That was amazing. Thank you. And how about Pooja like, she dropped out of Harvard Law School, like and was that another disappointment back then?

01:37:07.030 - 01:37:21.070

And she described it as her "quarterlife crisis" in her writing. Yeah, I think-I think it was disappointing. But I think it was a little easier, because I think she was

01:37:21.070 - 01:37:37.360

really having a hard time there. And it was, it seems like it was best that she did something else. Although, you know, she got into almost every college she applied to and couple of schools,

01:37:39.110 - 01:37:52.880

which were not perhaps as challenging as Harvard, and I won't name any, she got full ride and full scholarship, but still decided to go there. So sometimes I do wonder if she had gone to perhaps an easier school, maybe

01:37:52.880 - 01:38:07.750

things would have been different. But maybe not. You know, at that time, I advised, "Well why don't you do law, and then that's a good, strong, professional degree, and then you can do anything else?" But I

01:38:07.750 - 01:38:20.440

think that was not to be, and I think she's very happy. And she has the gift of writing. I think that's her calling in life. And I think she's doing well.

01:38:20.720 - 01:38:30.510

So I think it'll be great. That's wonderful to hear. But I have to correct you. She's not my daughter.

01:38:30.510 - 01:38:41.510

She's my princess. Oh, wow. That is even, that's like the highest praise of anyone. Thank you. Wow.

01:38:44.010 - 01:38:59.660

And I guess we kind of covered this like, you-you don't plan on or they won't allow you to plan for their significant other. Like, what are some of the, I guess, the thoughts about that?

01:39:00.780 - 01:39:20.030

Well, you know, I think we explained to them, there's—not explained, but we've had discussions that as I was saying earlier you know marriage is not— every day is not honeymoon

01:39:21.420 - 01:39:42.070

day, there are differences of opinion, there are two people getting together. And we think it is easier if there are a lot of similarities in the culture and the background and the values. And so we encourage them

01:39:44.100 - 01:40:00.230

to, to—and we hope they find a partner that has similar values first and hopefully the same cultural background. Because values, a lot of values, values are universal, but

01:40:00.980 - 01:40:14.540

sometimes culture also has a lot of impact on the values; they are kind of interrelated. So, so that, they, you know, they understand that. They know that. So, we

01:40:14.540 - 01:40:32.900

just wish them luck, it's, it's probably a lot of it is luck, and a lot of it is, you know, your own destiny. So we just wish them luck, and we hope they find an important and a good person as their partners.

01:40:36.680 - 01:40:53.510

I think, you know, we, that's probably one of the most significant decisions, or something that affects you the most I mean, yeah, you can go to Harvard, you can go to Princeton, you can go to Stanford; those are all great achievements.

01:40:53.560 - 01:41:11.730

But being married to the right person is far more important than any of those. And I think a lot of it is probably luck, I would think. Yeah, you

01:41:11.730 - 01:41:30.140

obviously want to choose the right person, but-but I think it's hard to know human beings very well. It just, you have to be lucky, I think. I mean, I

01:41:30.140 - 01:41:43.490

don't, sometimes on certain things, you'll be different. For the same situation, a person reacts differently at different times. So I always say, I don't think I know who I am myself. Because I react differently at

01:41:43.490 - 01:41:59.500

different times. And I see my friends, they react differently to the same thing. So human beings are so different. So I don't think that you can know a person for a long time and say, "This is the right person," I

01:41:59.530 - 01:42:17.140

think our luck element is very important. So I don't know, I'm rambling now, but-but we hope they find a good person, and they are happy together and have good values. That's all. That's wonderful.

01:42:19.350 - 01:42:36.160

I guess, moving on to a little bit about our contemporary topics in life, we just seen, have finished one of the most kind of hot topics about the election, it was also one of the

01:42:36.160 - 01:42:54.950

most memorable elections, I guess, for many, in the middle of a pandemic, what are some of your thoughts about the election results? Oh, well, you know, the results are what they are. And I, I'm actually a Republican, my wife is

01:42:54.950 - 01:43:05.530

Democrat, my son is Democrat. But Republican is not supporting Trump. I mean, I'm not support—I don't support Trump, but I support small government.

01:43:09.310 - 01:43:28.320

I think I support welfare and social programs, but not handouts, I think, the traditional Republican way is that, you know "We'll help you if you fall down; we'll help you get up. But don't expect us to be helping you all the time."

01:43:29.190 - 01:43:43.400

Whereas, but you have to make an effort to walk, while I think the way I understand it, or I perceive democratic way is, "We'll, not only if you fall down, we will help you get up and we'll—

01:43:44.810 - 01:43:58.780

you don't have to try to continue to stay up. We'll just keep helping you all the time." And I don't like that I don't like—people need to be more responsible. So, so I think I think Biden

01:43:59.350 - 01:44:11.870

will be a great guy and he'll have a calming influence on the country. And I think this divisiveness that Mr. Trump created will hopefully reduce. And I think, I don't think that's a

01:44:11.870 - 01:44:31.360

Republican thing, that just his thing and just picked a bad guy. A person that, who's not up to the job. Who doesn't have the right character, right values, so. But I think, but I think the

01:44:31.510 - 01:44:41.760

middle path is the best path, and I think with the election there seems to be balance, so we won't go too much to the left or the right and going to stay in the middle.

01:44:43.220 - 01:44:53.780

So that's my two cents. I think I really like small governments. I think governments are not very efficient. I think's low taxes are better for everybody.

01:44:57.310 - 01:45:13.910

And I think they should be less regulations. So that my Republican leanings. But you know, let forms of, what-what, who said that? "Let forms of government fools discuss,

01:45:16.340 - 01:45:33.590

contest, what is administered best is best." So you can have a very good situation with either party. Anyway, that's what I think. Have there been any differences in opinions within your family or with

01:45:33.840 - 01:45:47.360

friends? Oh, yeah. Well, not, yeah, we, everybody knows my thoughts and my son knows that, but he is a Democrat, and I support him for his values.

01:45:49.830 - 01:46:03.680

So, yeah, we have-we have good discussions. So but but yeah, that's good. That's the beauty of our country and our human beings is that we can agree to disagree.

01:46:04.350 - 01:46:14.560

Yeah, absolutely. But when when-when we want everybody to think like me, and everybody who thinks like, doesn't think like me is a bad guy.

01:46:14.560 - 01:46:29.730

That's where the problem comes, I mean like agree to disagree is the best thing that we have. And yeah, I agr—disagree with my wife many times, and she disagrees with me on certain things, and it's okay.

01:46:31.400 - 01:46:52.400

I don't mean, I don't need yes-men and yes-women around me all the time. That would be boring. Yeah. It's wonderful. And also won-wondering, how is the, how is the first woman of color being in

01:46:52.610 - 01:47:10.160

office, Kamala Harris, say to about kind of people of color's civic engagement. Yeah, I think if she can be the role model for young women of color, that would be very good.

01:47:12.140 - 01:47:28.550

But I hope we don't see her as a woman of color, we see her for her talents and what she does. Because if we start talking about women of color is there, and she's there because of that reason, then that defeats the

01:47:28.580 - 01:47:45.780

whole purpose. I think we, I don't look at her as a woman of color. I just look at her as someone who worked hard and is a smart person, and I hope she does good things. But, and I think it

01:47:45.780 - 01:48:01.890

should teach us that it doesn't matter whether you are White, Black, Brown, whatever. As I said earlier, it's your talents and your aspirations and your-your hard work that matters. But this whole idea

01:48:01.890 - 01:48:12.400

of I should be entitled because I am a minority, in that, to me, that doesn't sit well at all. And as an example, RAM

01:48:12.400 - 01:48:24.100

Group was very entitled to be declared as a small minority owned business. But I never went and registered myself as a minority owned business. Because I think that's ridiculous.

01:48:25.930 - 01:48:38.120

People should hire me because of our talents and what we can do, not because we are minority owned, and there's a lot of that going on around in the country. So, so I don't, so that's my thoughts on that.

01:48:39.140 - 01:48:57.220

Yeah. A lot of political correctness and gender— I mean, ethnic stereotyping, Correct. Yeah, I guess moving on. You also have a number of community involvements, including the Bellaire

01:48:57.370 - 01:49:15.470

Desi group, the temple Arya Samaj of the Greater Houston temple. Can you tell us a little bit about your selection, your choice of community involvement? Well, I think Arya Samaj, you know, Hindu religion

01:49:15.920 - 01:49:30.990

is very complicated, in some ways. It's actually a way of life; it's really not a religion. So to at one point over the 5000 year history, it became

01:49:30.990 - 01:49:45.960

very dogmatic and very ritualistic. And then about 200-300 years ago, this whole movement away from that started, and Arya Samaj of Houston is one, is that

01:49:46.110 - 01:50:03.430

following so we tend to believe in the original Gita—Vedas and not on a lot of idol worship, and, and rituals and so on. So so that's that, and our

01:50:03.970 - 01:50:20.890

kids, we would take them there and Raj, my son, also taught there in the Sunday school. So that's one. And then in by we live in Bellaire, and Diwali is like Christmas to us.

01:50:20.890 - 01:50:31.990

You know, there are many similarities between Diwali and Christmas. They both have some religious foundations, but it over the years it's become more

01:50:31.990 - 01:50:49.970

of a social and festive type of celebration as opposed to purely religious. So so we thought we need to start that, have a

01:50:49.970 - 01:51:05.700

community celebration and work hard to involve others, non-Indians, into understanding Diwali and what it means and so forth. So that's how this group started.

01:51:06.540 - 01:51:17.140

And I think right now we have like 350 plus families that are part of this. And there's a lot of fun. This year, of course, it was on Zoom

01:51:18.420 - 01:51:34.910

last week. And every year, every year, typically, we have a big dinner and some prayers, universal prayers, and we have some dances and where we collect some money, and we always give back

01:51:34.990 - 01:51:48.190

to a charity. So that's the idea. That's wonderful. And I also really, like the way you describe it as a way of life instead of religion which is what it's about.

01:51:48.950 - 01:52:01.610

Yeah, you know, that's the confusion is Hinduism is really, everybody calls it a religion, but it's not a religion, it's a way of life. And because if somebody comes to me and say, "I want to be Hindu," there is

01:52:01.750 - 01:52:18.120

no, there is no ceremony they have to do or, you know, do anything, you know, "Okay," you know, "Start reading our books and whichever one you like, you adopt and which you

01:52:18.120 - 01:52:32.130

don't like, don't adopt and just be a, lead a good life." So it's a way of life really. And, in fact, it goes to the point that you don't even have to believe in God to be a Hindu.

01:52:33.450 - 01:52:43.150

You don't want to believe in God, that's fine, too. If you believe in God, that's fine. If you believe your God is an idol, that's fine. If you believe the river is your God, that's

01:52:43.150 - 01:53:02.450

fine. So it gives you, it's a very democratic kind of way of life slash religion. And what do you think, I'm curious, in your point of view, or in through the lenses of Hinduism,

01:53:03.110 - 01:53:20.200

that COVID-19 is for, like this, during the pandemic has been, what is its purpose, and what is, why do we have this? Well, actually, it's interesting, you asked me because I asked our priest who is very

01:53:20.200 - 01:53:38.600

knowledgeable about the Hindu scriptures, and he says, "Well, you know, every 70-80 years, something like this happens to remind people that that nature is more powerful than they themselves."

01:53:39.510 - 01:53:54.970

And he says, you know, "There is mention of these in the 3000, 4000, 5000 year, mythologies that we have." So, so, you know, just

01:53:54.970 - 01:54:14.160

nature's way to kind of remind people that nature is bigger than than human, each human being. But I think, you know, but I never, and I think we'll come out and be better having lived through this COVID.

01:54:14.350 - 01:54:34.030

Of course, transition is tough, but I think it'll be fine. Okay, thank you. I guess that's all of my questions. And you have such a rich history and lo—and life stories to share with us, including your contribution

01:54:34.650 - 01:54:48.620

in career in your field of expertise, and like your testimony about your children and seeing them becoming who they are today, and by being open minded

01:54:48.690 - 01:55:02.590

and accepting them as who they are. That's like such a rich story to speak for itself as an integral part of the like, as a human being as part of the Asian American

01:55:02.590 - 01:55:11.370

experience in Houston, so thank you so much. Thank you. And if you think of any other question, you will call me and ask me and...