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Today is October 5, 2020, my name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. I'm interviewing today, our artist Antonius-Tin T. Bui. And thank you, Antonius, for

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joining this interview. Of course, thank you so much for inviting me. And just working with me the past few months. It's truly been an honor. Thank you.

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My pleasure too! To start, can you tell us where and when were you born? Yeah. So my name is Antonius-Tin T. Bui. I was born on December 10, 1992, in Bronx, New York. And can you tell us a little bit about

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the stories behind your name? Yeah, so Antonius is actually not my given name. I changed it when I transferred to art school. But my given name is Anthony-Tin T.

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Bui. And that's because I grew up in a very strict Vietnamese Catholic household, everyone in my family, extended family et cetera, or identify as Catholic. In fact, we have many priests, within my

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family, and one hope of every aunt and uncle is to have a child that decides to become a nun or priests. But one day, my parents came home and found a statue of St.

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Anthony on their doorsteps. And they were like, "Oh my goodness, we have to name our second child Anthony." Hence, me. Yeah. And I am one of four.

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My parents are Paul— Paul Lun Bui, and Van Bui, and they are both beautifully complex Vietnamese Americans— refugees, boat people, whatever name you wish to assign, but they are– their–

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their— actually our lives are a result of the Vietnam War. And I constantly think about what it means to be Vietnamese American. What is my responsibility as a Vietnamese American?

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How do I reckon with ideas of war, trauma, silence, miscommunication? Where would I be if there was never a Vietnam War? That must be really empowering to hear about how,

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yeah, the family values was instilled in terms of the stories and history they lived through you. Can you share with us some of the stories maybe from your parents' side?

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Yeah, definitely. Oh, my. So it's really funny, my dad every time he talks about refugee camp, he actually talks about it with such happiness because he was still quite the kid, like a

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teenager. And he remembers playing volleyball almost every single day, in Thailand. And my mom, her stories are a lot more trauma filled, she really remembers how each aunt and uncle was

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separated, had to find her own way of coming to America, how she lost her dad and a couple of her siblings, due to the journey of trying to escape Vietnam, and each of them have their

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own wondrous history of being sponsored of finding, like Americans who truly believed in refugees, who wanted to teach them English, to help launch their career and help stabilize their futures in

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this new country. For instance, my mom always reminds us that handwriting is really important because one of our first jobs in America was actually being a calligraphist.

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So she got paid $15 an hour back in the day, just for having beautiful handwriting. And she really prides herself in that. She would never consider herself an artist, but my mother really exudes

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creativity with everything that she does. And at the same time, she was working at my grandma's seafood restaurant. She was working at McDonald's, hustling, trying to

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balance schoolwork with family, responsibilities, and saving money for her future. But I think... and then my dad, it's really funny growing up, the four kids would wake up every single Saturday to clean the house, to

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vacuum, the bathrooms, polish all the furniture, etc. And we would never see our dad clean. And we'd be like, "Hey, why aren't you helping us?" And he would always say, "Well, I used to be a

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maid when I came to America. So I've done my fair share of clean cleaning. Now it is your turn to clean." So I'm always amazed

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by how, what’s the right word, like improvisational, my parents were, and so many refugees who come here, immigrants. Anyone who has to come to America and

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assimilate, they're always willing to do whatever it takes to provide for themselves in the family. And so my parents have done almost every single form of labor I can think of. So your dad moved from Thailand instead of Vietnam?

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Oh, like his refugee camp was in Thailand. And then from there he came to America. And that will be Lisa Tilson, was her name.

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She was a phenomenal teacher, author; we call her my dad's “American mother.” And she's the one who really sponsored him, helped him, get his foot in here, taught him English, and emphasized the importance of

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education. And she was also a devout Catholic. And it's really difficult to reconcile with my departure from the church, just because so many people who helped my family get

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started, were Catholics. The Catholic Church was one of the biggest sponsors of Vietnamese refugees. And so, without Catholicism and the good hearted nature of so many Catholic

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Americans, I don't know where I would be. And it's very conflicting because of that. Wow. And how is the, I guess, the process or the efforts to assimilate for your parents, and

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probably how they brought you up in terms of helping you guys to assimilate as well? Yeah. It's really funny. Hum, I've done the performance around the citizenship test.

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And part of that research was asking my parents what their process of obtaining citizenship, how they prepared for the test and everything. And my mom, there's like this, what's it called,

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like a reading component of the test, where you just read the English text. And my mom's, I believe was, "Today is going to be a good day." And so she had to say that out loud. And when they asked my dad about what he remembers from the test, he actually

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went, “I don't think I ever took the test, I was just granted citizenship somehow.” So it's really confusing. And I was like, “Wait, really, I don't even know if I should be saying this right now.”

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It reminds me of my process of getting a driver's-driver's license, because I got mine after the age of 16, which is like the legal age in Texas.

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Um, so I have, I got my permit after passing a test. But I actually never took a driver's test. It's really funny.

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What's it called? The DMV that I got my permit from actually burnt down. And so they actually mailed every person on the database a license. So one day I

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woke up, and I just had a driver's license. And it makes me think of my dad and his citizenship, if that is the correct story. But he says, “I really don't remember studying or ever having to take a

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citizenship test. I was just granted one.” That's a really interesting story, how like, you can get a license like that. And next, I was just wondering, in your like, process of growing up— I

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guess with your siblings as well, how is the culture and identity conflicts? I guess, when growing up in a family with family background, and going to school... has there been any, like, stories or

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memories that you remember that has to deal with that? I would say I'm very, very, very grateful to have grown up around my dad's side of the family in the Bronx.

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Most of my aunts, uncles and cousins were within walking distance. And we used to go to church almost every single weekend together, we got to celebrate every single holiday together. And so in so many ways, I'm very privileged to

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be almost suffocated with love. Even though I now look back and critique the forms of love , I should say just being able to go to school with them, to see myself reflected in the

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school's population, and to be instilled with like Vietnamese pride, as opposed to the experiences of many Asian Pacific Islander Americans who face a lot of discrimination, bullying,

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isolation... That wasn't exactly the case for me, because I went to Holy Rosary School, from K through eighth grade, alongside my cousins. My uncle would pick us up from school and drop us off.

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And then we would continue playing in the background— backyard. We would invent games every single day, whether or not it was like tag or impromptu theater or just playing with figurines.

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And on top of that, I got to grow up with my grandparents. I really miss them. And they were a— because of them, my parents were

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allowed to work, or able to work full-time without hiring a nanny or have to expend money on that. So they were able to save and accumulate money and provide for us, because we grew up

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around my grandparents and extended family. Yeah. That was really lovely. And at what age did you move from Bronx to Houston? Yeah, I grew— moved.

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Right after finishing eighth grade, so around 14, when I was supposed to start high school. And even then, we moved from my dad's side of the family to Houston, Texas, where most my mom's side of family is.

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And even with that drastic transition, we were able to, yeah, get our grounding pretty quickly, thanks to the support of more family. It's really sweet.

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And how is schooling for you? Like, do you remember having a lot of text books that covers the Asian American history or history of Vietnam War?

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Oh, not at all. I feel like Asian American history is almost obsolete, like there is absolutely no teaching of it. Or, at least from my experience.

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I did not learn of Yuri Kochiyama, Fred Ho or the connections between The Black Liberation Movement and Asian American Movement. Um, I very much so grew up in

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what's it— Holy Rosary School was like a Catholic education in the Bronx. If anything, I'm very, very grateful to have grown up and gone to school around predominantly black and brown kids.

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And because of that, I feel like I really had a lesson in— what it's called— what it meant to be an ally, being exposed to different cultures, ethnicities,

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faiths. Like from the get go, ideas of racism were just so absurd, because my entire community in the Bronx was like people of color. I don't really remember being friends of that many white

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people. And even when we moved from the Bronx to Houston, Houston is one of the most diverse cities in the entire country. And in Houston, I was really around a lot of South Asian, Southeast Asian communities.

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And it was a very, multicultural upbringing, one full of empathy, understanding, and exposure to lives beyond my own.

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And I think that's so important to the development of every single child as a way to combat the very white, hetero, patriarchal society that America is. So

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inspiring to hear. And what was the demographic like you said it was predominantly people of color like Black American and Asian and Latino? Yeah.

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Lots of like, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans. Yeah, just very diverse. And how have they kind of influenced your kind of, I guess value in the future, and I guess

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later on your artistic creativity? Mmmm. Oh, I should also mention that it was very conflicting to go to school with like many black and brown people, and then to go home, where

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most of my family was very anti- black. They perpetuated racist ideas, constantly was telling us like, "Oh, you have to be beware of like black people," or "You shouldn't go in certain neighborhoods." And now that I'm

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older, I reflect on, like, how little exposure, most of my extended family had to, like black and brown communities, most of them probably don't have black friends.

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And they have been instilled with racist ideas from the media, or from the white people that really helped them along the way. And so how do we begin talking to the older generation

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about anti-racism, when they have been indoctrinated as a way of assimilation, like they had to, they took on these ideas as a way to make their own lives in America.

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And they have really, really learned to believe them. Yeah, it's really conflicting. Do you think Catholicism is a catalyst to that?

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And in any way play to that type of like, idea? I would say Catholicism has really solidified my family's relationship to the Republican Party.

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And, yeah, for instance, I constantly think about how my parents are very much so single issue voters, and that's because of abortion, and how the Catholic Church really demonizes abortion. And so because of that, they constantly aligned

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themselves with the Republican Party, Republican values. And yeah, I think that already says a lot about...

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Yeah, who they align themselves with and who they value. I see. And when did you first hear about the Vietnam War? If you remember, at what age? Mhm. I would say it was always a hazy backdrop.

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Like, I always knew my parents were Vietnamese refugees. I would hear glimpses of it. Whenever we would have parties and my

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uncles would get drunk, and they would reminisce on like being part of the war, or escaping, or what life was before they came to America. So as a kid, it was a very abstract,

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almost a legend. Just because, what, what good is it to talk to kids about the Vietnam War and trauma? Or I should, I should rephrase that.

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Hmm. As a young adult, I was very resentful of my parents for not sharing their histories with me more, for not providing me knowledge about their experiences. I feel like I would have understood so much more, I would have appreciated them so much

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more. But at the same time, I understand why. What good is it to tell someone who doesn't have… I guess it's like, what could I have offered, to them? What good is it for them to relive trauma and

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tell someone who isn't able to offer any comfort and exchange. And now that I am a working artist who oftentimes uses my practice as a way to complicate ideas around the Vietnam War, I

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feel like I'm able to… I'm able to be more responsible with their histories, and they can trust me more. So I no longer blame them or am resentful of them for not

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sharing. I think that's very common for many Asian households to be filled with silence, miscommunication. Love is oftentimes shown in different forms, such as cooking.

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And I think that was very much so the case for me growing up. We didn't talk a lot about social issues or history. But there was a lot of cooking and love.

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I personally wish that we were able to talk more openly about traumas, PTSD, their own wishes, what life could have been like without the war. But at the same time, I totally

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understand that it's very painful to recount stories. How do you think they're living or healing, and kind of— how hard is it processing those trauma do you think?

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Do they just like to bury it as multiple culture does? And do they, kind of seek for ways to express them? And what are their kind of methods to cope with

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that trauma? Yeah, I would love to like have them be part of this interview right now. Um, just because I don't know what they would say right now. But I would say they,

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because they have come such a long way that they have truly built a future for themselves in America, and they probably don't have to think about it as much.

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The biggest concerns now are, whether or not the poor kids are doing well? How extended family are doing? But because they have worked day in and day out to get to this point, I honestly don't know how often they think about the

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war and its implications. I could imagine that even if you wanted to think about it, the days that you got to America, you didn't have time, because you had to hustle. Because you had to learn the language.

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You have to understand your place in this country. And because of that, you start to lose, lose the memory, or it doesn't do any good to remember, because you now have to

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quickly adjust to a new life here in America. Yeah, that's— I guess that's like one of the most common way or the most, um, like practical as like, we all have so many realities and responsibility on the

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shoulder. For the four kids of you, and your family, for your parents, that's definitely really admirable what they're doing. And I guess for you, and how are you processing?

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Like I guess I have seen your works have dealt so much with the trauma from Vietnam War. Like, you're picking up, like a lot of their trauma and trying to process and express them.

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Like, can you share some of the ways or the process or the motivations behind that to kind of pick up the trauma from the earlier generation? Hmm. Oh, that's a good question,

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Ann. No, I really appreciate it. Um, I guess firstly, I think that creating work as a form of

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research for diving into one's history, and creating portals of healing will always be important to me. How creating work around the Vietnam War was an entryway for me to have more conversation with my parents about their

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histories. How it's really allowed us to get closer, and be more transparent about the way that we process traumas and pain, not only about the Vietnam War, but

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about our differences when it comes to politics, about my identity; how— yeah, creating work around the Vietnam War has trained me to be so much more sensitive

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towards people's narratives. It has trained me how to carry histories, and narratives with empathy. Sorry, I’m like.... just my mind is like racing in so many

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different directions, especially since my sibling Theresa and I just released a 12-minute video piece that has to do with the Vietnam War, and incorporates a lot of archived audio from my

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grandma's death. And she was the last grandparent of mine. I guess it always goes back to the fact that because we are not taught our own histories,

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so many Vietnamese American artists returned to this topic as a way to, to learn what they weren't taught. I think about how I'm really

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ashamed of not being fluent in Vietnamese, and how that is actually a result of assimilation in itself; how my parents just wanted us to be fluent in English, so we could succeed in school and

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build a future for ourselves. And I guess it always goes back to, like you said, we all live in such particular realities. And we have, who knows how many responsibilities on a daily

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basis. And because of that you're just trying to get by, there's not an opportunity to, yeah, reminisce, share your histories, to pass on that knowledge to the

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next generation. But I think it is so important to mind that, because there's so much that we can learn from our past, our wrongdoings, our

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failures, and it's of utmost importance that we don't perpetuate the cycles of silence. Um, yeah. I don't know if that like answered it.

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Um. Totally, yeah, yeah, that's really, yeah, authentic. And thank you for sharing that. I also want to say, the artwork has also allowed me to go way beyond my family, it's

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allowed me to collaborate with so many Southeast Asian Americans of my generation to work with other artists, thinkers, professors, to really understand that, it takes a multidisciplinary

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approach to really make these topics tangible for all forms of learners. For instance, not every Vietnamese American will understand my visual language, but if I'm

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working with like, poets, dancers, anthropologists, maybe we can all be working together towards unpacking all of these narratives and touching more lives than if it was just a singular

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idea or approach. Yeah, yeah. That sounds amazing. And your work, a lot of them have, like your most recent work at the Washington Performing Arts, and the

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earlier, MPP, the "Missing Piece Project," have interacted and responded to the Vietnam Memorial in DC. Can you share some thoughts about your, your opinion towards the

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Vietnamese— the Vietnam Memorial by Maya Lin, and whether it represented what, what, or the healing aspect, and like the memorial aspect of the piece of work? If I would first like to thank Dr.

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Kim Tran, the founder of the "Missing Piece Project" for really expanding my understanding of the war, and the way to history is formulated. To almost touching back on the last question as well, I feel like so

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many Southeast Asian artists, specifically Vietnamese American artists, returned to the war because what we were taught in school has always been through the eyes of the white man.

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Most of history is, and it's so important for us to refute those because, um... To be honest, I really do love the Maya Lin Memorial in DC, it's one of my favorite monuments in this entire country.

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It's so emotive to walk from one end and to descend into this pit, this scar within the land, and to see your own reflection and reflection of every single visitor there...

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and then as you get closer, you realize that the edge textures are names of veterans had fought in the war, and the number is just as astonishing. But at the same time, you quickly realize that none of those

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names reflect the other side of the story. The millions of Vietnamese people who died from this conflict. How we only memorialize and humanize American

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soldiers. And so often, the victims of US imperialism are erased, are forced to be grateful to the country. To understand America as a gift,

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and then to be forced to aspire for the American dream, and to be in service to this us Imperial complex. So a lot of the work is just expanding our notions of history for being brave enough to

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go against the grain, and to collectively tell a narrative that is rejected, erased, and silenced. And the "Missing Piece Project" is an annual intervention in front of the

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Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall at DC that I do with Dr. Kim Tran and the "Missing Piece Project" team. And since our first intervention where we laid out traditional

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Vietnamese, what’s it called, the traditional Vietnamese funerary cloth across the entire monuments, and dedicated objects that we and our communities made, we've really started to think about like, why are we constantly responding to

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memorials that don't want us there? Each time that we've been there we have received... we've ran into issues. We've been questioned.

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Our bodies are quickly othered. And so one of our current goals is to begin dreaming of our own monuments. Why can't we dream about own

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space? What would that space smell, taste, feel, sound like? And what what does our community need right now as we get closer to the 50th anniversary of

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April 30th, 1975? Yeah, and also like, how do we– how do we, like continue to create, critique systems

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of oppression and power, while still providing glimpses of joy and a utopia for our community? Because I think it's so so so important for us to still mind all that has been

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manipulated, silenced, etc, about the Vietnam War. But at the same time, I don't want to spend the rest of my life creative work about the Vietnam War. I think there's so much more that like, every artist should be allowed to create work around.

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Like, for instance, if I want to create abstract paintings, I should be able to do that, without always being instantly linked to trauma. Because I'm so much more than that.

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I am. Yeah, I am. I'm not just a war. I'm not just a casualty. I'm not just a Vietnamese refugee’s success story.

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And I think once we're able to fully confront this history to heal together, then we're able to really, really then start to understand what it means to be Vietnamese American.

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Because thus far, we have been pigeon-holed into a very limited narrative. Yeah, that's so true and so like, beautifully said. I guess going back to a little bit, we talked

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about your high school and can you share with us some of your memories of college? Like you studied at U of H, and, and the MICA, Massachusetts Institute.

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Can you share with us some experiences there? Definitely. I went to Clements High School in Sugarland, Texas. And old Clements is...

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Many people would describe Clements High School as a very high achieving high school. And I think when we say that, like, "Oh, this is a good high school." Or high achieving, especially in

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America, it always equates to simply test scores. And where people go to after high school. Clements was very much a place where everyone cared about honors and AP classes.

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People prepared very early on for the PSATs, SATs. Were always thinking about if they could get into like an Ivy League, or which university they were going to go to after these four years. Um, and

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I think like most parents, my, my parents really wanted me to be in like the top 10%, to get an amazing SAT score, to get a full ride to some college. But I quickly learned that

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many of the classes in high school did not appeal to me. That that specific form of learning, like tests, quizzes, memori— it wasn't learning; it was memorizing. It was building test taking skills, and

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simply regurgitating what you're fed. I wasn't really taught how to think independently in this public school system. And I think it wasn't until my senior year of high school

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that I really began questioning what does education really meant, whether or not I even wanted to go to college. Throughout those entire four years, I was constantly reminded that becoming a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, were

00:37:29.400 - 00:37:47.380

the best paths for me, and that I should be working towards that, because that would guarantee financial security. But my senior year of high school, that was the year that I was very much so done with taking AP classes, I was still taking

00:37:47.730 - 00:38:04.070

them but I wanted to make time to cultivate my creativity. I always had these yearnings to be in art class, to indulge in dance, to go beyond just books. And so I was actually the first, well I'm

00:38:04.810 - 00:38:20.040

non binary and queer now, but I was the first guy on the high school color guard team. And that was honestly one of the most— it's a, it's a— get

00:38:20.040 - 00:38:38.810

into that point taught me so much about standing up for oneself, for advocating for justice and equity, for enduring bullying, and for keeping my eyes on the prize and understanding

00:38:40.230 - 00:38:59.080

who your real allies are, who your real friends are. And what sparks genuine joy and curiosity in oneself. So as painful, and um and yeah, it was really painful at times.

00:38:59.780 - 00:39:13.890

I still remember performing at a football game for the halftime show, getting off the field, so excited for the entire team of what we just accomplished and then to have water bottles thrown at me.

00:39:14.720 - 00:39:29.630

And then to be called a fag constantly just because I dare to do something that I believed in. Something that brought me joy, and cultivated a happiness that good test scores

00:39:30.040 - 00:39:47.610

could never do. And it really, really taught me how to be resilient, to work my ass off for something that I believed in. And my senior year was also the first time that I took an art class. That was Drawing 2 with Miss

00:39:47.670 - 00:40:03.530

Donna Reedy, who I cannot thank enough. Looking back, she had a very southern traditional idea of art. But the way that she navigated the world; she

00:40:05.480 - 00:40:20.410

opened the classroom as a radically safe space for people of all identities. People, like especially the LGBTQ community, would come to our classroom almost every single day after school, and just hang out with their

00:40:20.470 - 00:40:33.070

friends in art class. They would draw together, dream of ideas, or just do their homework. But Mrs. Reedy was there almost every single day till five or six o'clock, and we were allowed to just be

00:40:33.070 - 00:40:49.270

there and ask her questions if we needed to. And she was so authentically wacky, like it gets to hear some of her noises, like she would be like, "oh," or, like, if she really likes

00:40:49.270 - 00:41:06.610

something, she's like, "Oh, my God." Um, and it was one of my first times I've seeing an adult, still be so playful, and unafraid to be themselves to have

00:41:07.210 - 00:41:20.340

such curious eyes, and a genuine investment in the youth. And so I credit her a lot for the way that I navigate a classroom whenever I'm allowed to.

00:41:21.380 - 00:41:36.930

So my senior was extremely monumental in my own development. It was my first time dancing, drawing; I was heavily involved in clubs like Red Cross club,

00:41:37.480 - 00:41:51.080

Interact club, the Asian American society, National Honor Society. And so much of the learning that I remember was outside of the classroom.

00:41:52.720 - 00:42:08.550

Yeah. And that final year of high school also planted the seeds for my eventual transfer to art school. Because after graduating from Clements, I actually wanted to go to nursing school.

00:42:10.340 - 00:42:27.680

And so, I got a scholarship to a four-year Catholic high school, I mean, Catholic university in San Antonio. But unfortunately, my parents were like, "No, if you're going to enter the medical field, then you're going to become a doctor." Because they

00:42:27.680 - 00:42:40.340

don't, yet they just back then did not respect nurses as much as doctors, and still believe that only woman were nurses; that I would get married, have to provide for

00:42:40.340 - 00:42:57.280

kids, and I should become a doctor. And so they told me that I was going to study at the University of Houston because it was local. And even though I was started to be able to like stand up for myself, develop a sense of

00:42:57.350 - 00:43:12.880

independence, and start to really develop a language behind my own politics, I very much so caved in, and I went to the University of Houston for two years as a chemistry major to please my parents.

00:43:13.470 - 00:43:28.910

And it was only when my younger sibling Joseph, began applying for college. And Joseph always knew that he was going to going to art school. He is genuinely one of the most creative

00:43:29.070 - 00:43:42.440

and talented souls I know on this planet. And it's thanks to him and his conviction that I mustered up the courage to apply to the Maryland Institute College of Art, where I finished my Bachelor's

00:43:42.510 - 00:44:00.350

in Fine Arts. Wow, so you have a very creative family with Theresa and... I do. I really like to thank my parents, even though none of them consider

00:44:00.350 - 00:44:16.780

themselves artists, though they're very, very improvisational. They're quite playful, open to many, many ideas, took us camping a lot, exposed us to the world, took us on trips.

00:44:18.560 - 00:44:36.600

And they continue to grow and learn, especially with three out of four of us being queer and or trans. And three out of four of us being artists now. Yeah, we, as a family, have come a really long way, in

00:44:36.600 - 00:44:57.100

terms of expanding our ideas of success and love. That's beautiful. And it definitely helps that my older brother, James, is like a dentist, a bodybuilder, is preparing to propose to his accounting girlfriend, Judy Wu.

00:44:57.550 - 00:45:15.130

And so he's very much so like the golden pineapple of our family. I'm wondering how was the process like to, I guess, come out to your parents as queer?

00:45:15.630 - 00:45:36.150

And how was it like for your siblings, your two other siblings? Yeah. So Theresa has not come out to them yet. But it was honestly really, really terrifying. Just because I didn't grow up seeing

00:45:36.150 - 00:45:51.620

many LGBTQIA+ Asian Pacific Islander Americans. I was so afraid of disappointing them, of being kicked out, of

00:45:51.670 - 00:46:06.460

being shunned. We have come such a long way, in terms of like LGBTQIA+ storytelling. But back then there was so little content around

00:46:08.960 - 00:46:24.060

queerness, and anytime there was, it was oftentimes very trauma filled, like people being rejected, from committing suicide, um, of living very lonely, desperate lives.

00:46:24.270 - 00:46:39.920

And if, if it wasn't, it was oftentimes just like, white queer people, white gay pristine looking people in love. You never really saw— and you still rarely do—

00:46:41.850 - 00:46:53.660

queer Asian people in the media. I think we're just starting to really, as a society, embrace Asian Pacific Islander American narratives in mainstream media.

00:46:57.830 - 00:47:15.330

I, my sibling, Joseph and I decided to wait till we graduated from college, just because we wanted to be able to financially sustain ourselves, on our own terms; just in case, we were rejected by our parents.

00:47:15.850 - 00:47:29.730

But by the time that we did come out, we were pretty certain that it would be hard for them, but they would still love us. Just because my parents are in spite of their Trump

00:47:30.700 - 00:47:47.110

loving sensibilities, they are really, really open minded flexible parents. I constantly tell people that if I was born to any other aunt and uncle, I

00:47:47.110 - 00:48:03.810

wouldn't be who I am today. And it's because my parents have been so willing to learn to, to embrace different ideas, to

00:48:03.810 - 00:48:21.850

trust us. I really do think that they, they love and trust all four of us. as scary as our decisions can be at times, to their limited worldview, they're always willing

00:48:24.420 - 00:48:40.290

to take a chance on us and to be a safety net if we fail, yeah. And so, I still remember how nervous I was when I came out with them.

00:48:40.340 - 00:48:56.550

We were in a cafe, all four of us and our parents. And my older brother was the one who helped facilitate it. He was like, "Okay, so we came here because Bean and Tan," I'm Bean and

00:48:56.600 - 00:49:08.740

Joseph's Tan, "... have something to tell you." And we're like, "Oh my goodness!" Like this the moment like, this is terrifying. And we came out to them.

00:49:09.310 - 00:49:23.450

And my dad, the first thing he said was, "I still love you two." And that was more than we could have ever asked for. And I still remember like, my mom had her face in her hands.

00:49:24.190 - 00:49:38.110

And she was just crying. And it was just so awkward. And like, because we're in this cafe, all these people in there, and we're like in the back corner, we just

00:49:38.110 - 00:49:54.710

came out to my parents and like, this mother is just crying and my dad is just like, "I don't know what to do." And we just sit there for a while. I remember answering a few questions like, "How do you know? When did you know?" And

00:49:56.490 - 00:50:07.410

then my mom still hadn't said a word. But my dad was like, "Oh, I think we should go back home." And we took two cars there. At first, all four kids

00:50:07.410 - 00:50:17.220

went in one car, and my parents went in a separate car. And so I thought we were going to depart like that, too. So that way my parents could process things on their own. But then when we're in

00:50:17.220 - 00:50:29.620

the parking lot, my dad was like, “No, you two are going to drive with mom and dad,” and it was just the most awkward car ride, ever. Like my mom is still crying. My dad is silent, and me and

00:50:29.620 - 00:50:44.800

Joseph were just in the back of car looking at each other, like, "What just happened? What is going to happen?" And then at the same time, we're like, “We did it! We feel so much better about ourselves.” And dad just said, "I love you." But

00:50:46.020 - 00:50:56.410

we all get home. And my parents, my mom just leaves, like she goes on a walk. For hours. And we all just go inside, and continue

00:50:57.700 - 00:51:11.590

doing our thing. Until my dad's like, "Where's Mom? It's been a couple of hours now." And we're like, "Oh. We don't know." Then some time passes, as she walks through the

00:51:11.590 - 00:51:23.990

door. At this point, it's already almost midnight, she's still crying. I remember her just saying like, "I don't know what to say." And then she goes to sleep.

00:51:24.840 - 00:51:45.710

That's like our coming out story. And I remember the first year after it was really, really difficult to talk to my parents. I even remember one time calling my

00:51:45.710 - 00:51:59.090

mom, and her telling me like, "I don't even know what to talk to you about anymore, ever since you decided to be this." And that was really heartbreaking to hear.

00:52:00.430 - 00:52:19.760

And I understood that we grew up in a Catholic household, that as a mom, she very much so had ideas of what she wanted each kid to be, that she wanted to see all three

00:52:19.760 - 00:52:33.710

boys married to a lovely Vietnamese woman, to have a family of their own, and us coming out very much so shattered her idea of success as a mom.

00:52:35.020 - 00:52:51.770

Um… And so it was difficult. I always knew that I would give my mom a couple of years to fully process what it means for me and Joseph to the out,

00:52:52.690 - 00:53:09.190

for her to come around to accepting our identity, our queerness, and then learning or developing a way for her to talk about this every time we came out to a different family member.

00:53:09.700 - 00:53:21.940

Because coming out is never a singular moment. Your life is full of coming outs. And I can honestly say that she has come so so so far.

00:53:21.940 - 00:53:34.490

In fact, she constantly asks about my partner Brandon, has invited him back for Christmas. In fact, anytime we talk on the phone, she probably askes about him more than

00:53:34.490 - 00:53:50.620

me. They still don't have all the- the language around queerness; they're still ashamed to share it with their friends and family. Like anytime anyone asks about us, they prefer to talk about

00:53:50.620 - 00:54:04.280

James. But with that said, I know that they still love me. And I hope that with each passing year, they can learn to become better allies.

00:54:05.110 - 00:54:17.890

Because I have some cousins who are queer. And I wish that as a family, we're able to be more vulnerable with one another, to be able to talk about not just queerness but like divorce.

00:54:18.690 - 00:54:28.720

Abortions, miscarriages. Yep, family abuse. So much goes unsaid due to shame.

00:54:29.580 - 00:54:46.690

And I think that every family believes that they're going through these things on their own, or that this is karma, or they question like “Why my family?” But every single family is going through their own issues.

00:54:47.810 - 00:55:00.960

The world is imperfect, therefore families are imperfect. And I wish that, or I hope that my parents one day will be able to talk so much more freely about it because you never know what—Like,

00:55:04.610 - 00:55:18.640

for instance, I know so many of my Asian friends who are still not out to their parents. But when they hear that my parents have come such a long way, it provides them so much more hope that they will be able to come out one day to

00:55:18.640 - 00:55:37.250

their own, that maybe their parents aren't as rigid and strict as they believe. And it also counters… it takes so much storytelling to really change the course of

00:55:37.250 - 00:55:51.870

narratives that we have been given. Yeah. It was the most heartfelt and... yeah, the history... I mean, yeah, that I've

00:55:52.560 - 00:56:08.140

heard. Thank you for sharing that very personal, intimate memories with your family. And, yeah, I'm so grateful that your family are so, such loving and caring, and that it's inspiring for, I guess,

00:56:08.190 - 00:56:25.550

many people out there to be hearing that they've come a long, such a long way. Yeah, and for that, I guess, maybe does it relate to your departure from- from Catholicism? And

00:56:25.630 - 00:56:44.100

maybe you can speak a little bit about that? Yeah. Oh, I guess, um, I love, love, love, studying religion and spirituality. For instance, I've read the Quran, the Bible.

00:56:44.940 - 00:57:01.180

I've been to so many Buddhist temples. I did my study abroad semester in India where I was able to learn so much more about Hinduism, Islam, Jain- Jainism.

00:57:02.170 - 00:57:18.640

And so from a very early age, I always enjoy the communal and ritual aspects of Catholicism. But I always knew that it wasn't the faith for me, and I adhered to it very much so to be part of

00:57:18.680 - 00:57:34.440

the family, to please my parents. And just because Catholicism is almost so inextricable from my family. So many of our gatherings are around like Easter, Christmas, baptisms, confirmations,

00:57:34.610 - 00:57:53.950

weddings, all these rites of passage, these sacraments. And so I very much so still appreciate what that upbringing has instilled within me. And it's taught me so much about

00:57:55.170 - 00:58:11.740

the, the rally and power of ceremony. But at the same time, I do— that the very conservative teachings of

00:58:11.740 - 00:58:28.990

Catholicism very much have contributed towards my own thoughts and attempts of suicide as a young kid. It also contributed a lot towards my own self-deprecating thoughts, my—

00:58:31.150 - 00:58:48.940

all the shame that I carried. And it also instilled in me, like, a lot of shame around like sex and the body. And I'm still unlearning many of those things.

00:58:50.600 - 00:59:09.640

Yeah. I'll still go to church when I'm at home. I'll still support people of all faiths, and I love being part of ceremonies and rites but I, yeah, I don't identify as a practicing Catholic anymore.

00:59:11.910 - 00:59:28.480

Thank you for sharing. And I'm just wondering, next, to speak about your creative processes. Has art, I guess, been a way for you to give your voice for— as a Vietnamese, and

00:59:29.470 - 00:59:49.500

as a queer, and as a socially engaged person. Like, has and like how has creative processes been engaging you as a person with all these identities? Yeah. Oh, yes, I guess uh

00:59:50.170 - 01:00:03.520

self-identify, as a queer, non-binary, Vietnamese American poly-disciplinary artists. That's what I've been told; it's such a mouthful. So many markers of

01:00:03.520 - 01:00:19.790

identity. But I absolutely love being an artist. It is one of the most challenging things in the entire world. And that's because there are…

01:00:22.870 - 01:00:37.810

As many artists as there are in the world, that's how many ways you can define being an artist. Each one of us have to define success of studio practice, and art making on our own terms.

01:00:38.600 - 01:00:51.920

And that's so liberating, but at the same time, so torturous, because I wake up every day, and I'm like, "What am I doing?" Um, “What am I doing this for?” Society

01:00:51.920 - 01:01:08.690

still very much so does not value the arts and artists. And with COVID, so many art institutions and organizations are closing, or scaling down.

01:01:09.630 - 01:01:25.390

And I wonder how we will continue supporting cultural makers. But to return to the core of the question. Yeah, art making has been the most,

01:01:27.910 - 01:01:45.710

the most valuable vehicle for me to embrace the world. It has… like art making is so much more than just creating

01:01:45.820 - 01:02:01.570

objects. So much of my work is research. Diving into topics, issues, histories that I'm genuinely interested in, that I want to deepen my understanding of.

01:02:01.720 - 01:02:19.200

And because of that, I am allowed to collaborate, to meet local community members to really expand my own definition of art. For instance, I consider artists synonymous with teacher,

01:02:19.990 - 01:02:40.630

organizer, politically engaged citizen, poet, writer, dancer, instructor, choreographer, who kno— like I just feel like the possibilities are infinite, and that I am able to do anything.

01:02:41.210 - 01:02:54.890

And that a visual language is— it's the synthesis of everything that I'm thinking, and processing. And it's all inspired by my own lived experiences,

01:02:57.510 - 01:03:14.240

my research and the research of others. Some things that I'm currently interested in are Afro- Asian Futurism, creative spaces of radical healing.

01:03:15.320 - 01:03:32.580

I'm interested in creating my own art spaces, ones that do not replicate the institutions that are very much so failing right now, ones that are going through their own moments of reckoning with white supremacy.

01:03:34.830 - 01:03:51.490

I, I still want to be a professor. So many of my greatest inspirations in life have been educators who have believed in their students, who understand that teaching

01:03:51.860 - 01:04:07.470

is— it's a radical profession. You are nurturing the next generation. When you're teaching, you learn so much more from the students than you're

01:04:07.520 - 01:04:22.660

able to provide for them. The classroom is a— it's a studio space in itself. It's a space of play, of failure. And there's no singular way of teaching because every single student has

01:04:22.660 - 01:04:40.200

different needs. And I hope to be able to, yeah, to teach one day in the classroom, as a professor, to be able to share my own resources, wisdom, experiences, and

01:04:40.920 - 01:04:59.290

to empower younger artists to really dream as big as they can, and to never put any limits on their imagination. So, at the moment, today's– today's October 5, I think, October 5,

01:04:59.680 - 01:05:14.800

2020. I don't know what my art career is going to look like. Just because somebody fellowships, residencies, opportunities have been put on pause.

01:05:16.190 - 01:05:38.780

What I do know is that I will always try my best to center what's it called— queer and trans, black indigenous people of color. To, yeah, advocate for justice and equality

01:05:39.380 - 01:05:55.820

within the arts. And to never get comfortable as an artist. It's so important to continue learning. To understand that we have never existed in a bubble,

01:05:57.810 - 01:06:14.510

that art is necessary. And it's it more than ever, it has to be radical; it has to be groundbreaking. And it has to expand our own notions of

01:06:14.510 - 01:06:36.980

what's possible. I truly believe that, in many ways, artists are futurists; we are fortune tellers. We are the guides to a newer and better world. And I'm so grateful that most of my friends are artists,

01:06:37.010 - 01:06:56.080

as difficult as this career is— I wouldn't ask for any other. Yeah, it's just extraordinary to be able to have conversations

01:06:56.230 - 01:07:09.980

about anything and everything with my artist community friends, and it's so unfortunate to say that the society that we live in doesn't provide space for reflection, and

01:07:10.060 - 01:07:24.890

thinking. And so many of us are caught in the day to day responsibilities, working nine to five, paying bills, and then simply find a time to relax, decompress, or enjoy whatever we can.

01:07:26.600 - 01:07:41.260

And I get to question every single day. I get to think about ideas and be in conversation with people like you Ann, and yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I just went on like a complete ramble.

01:07:41.610 - 01:07:55.610

I was gonna say, that sounds like a manifesto in itself for artists to the society, and as an integral part of fortune telling.

01:07:56.160 - 01:08:12.520

And like, I was hearing this saying once that artists are like, a bit of poison that to wake up the society, to like, make it hurt a little bit, but at the same time, that it can grow stronger, and go further.

01:08:13.660 - 01:08:25.910

Yeah, definitely. And I think so often, um, we consider like art and poetry to be a luxury. But it's not, it's a necessity.

01:08:27.740 - 01:08:40.230

I really believe that. And I just simply want to empower every single person that engages with art, to understand their own magic, their own power. And that creativity

01:08:40.260 - 01:08:57.250

is something that can be cultivated in each and every single one of us. Like, to be completely honest, I don't consider myself the most talented artists at all, I have to really work towards it. I look at my siblings Theresa and Joseph, and they just

01:08:57.880 - 01:09:08.720

ooze creativity. I feel like everything they touch, simply like transforms into an object of art. While, for me, it takes me so long.

01:09:09.180 - 01:09:24.470

I really have to like, ruminate on ideas to like, draw things out, to really question things, and then I'm finally able to embark on it. While, so many people I admire, they almost seem to like floats.

01:09:24.930 - 01:09:41.540

Yeah. I'm curious who else are— I believe you said there was a teacher in your high school— and who else are like mentors for you in your artistic journey?

01:09:42.570 - 01:09:53.060

Oh, my goodness. So many people to thank. One thing I like to destroy, it's like this, this myth of like a singular genius.

01:09:53.240 - 01:10:11.470

Um, I constantly think about the Maya Angelou quote, "I come as one but I stand as 10,000." I'm very cognizant that I would not be able to be the artist I am today if it weren't for all the networks and communities that support

01:10:11.470 - 01:10:26.540

me, my siblings, my parents, every single artists that I've met along the way, my professors, everyone who has commissioned me or bought a piece, every single writer.

01:10:27.400 - 01:10:41.330

So much of my artwork would not be what it is if it weren't for the ideas of others. And so I want to completely destroy that like, cursing is not the most

01:10:41.330 - 01:10:52.990

appropriate, but I always say like, "I ain't shit." Like, I'm not I'm just another human on this planet, figuring things out on a daily basis. And I just happened to be an artist.

01:10:53.880 - 01:11:09.820

And my artwork would not be what it is, if it weren't for all my mentors. And the people who have come before me; there's so many queer artists that would never be recognized, who died from AIDS or whose

01:11:09.890 - 01:11:23.180

histories have been erased, silenced. And similarly, there are people like my mom who don't consider themselves artists, but I very much to look at her and understand her as an artist. But

01:11:23.180 - 01:11:38.460

what, but will she ever be written into history as an artist? Probably not. But I know that my work is an extension of her. Some people that I come to mind are Truce Ludwick

01:11:38.900 - 01:11:55.820

Johnson... He was my academic advisor, my first drawing teacher at the Maryland Institute College of Art, gave me my first exhibition after graduating. I think of Haeson Mary Sung, a Korean American

01:11:56.340 - 01:12:08.840

artists, who was my first professor, like my first class at MICA, I walked in, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, who is this, like, bad ass looking Korean woman.

01:12:09.100 - 01:12:25.550

And she always looked at every single student as a full-time artist and colleague. She never belittled us, and she firmly believed in our visions. I remember that, her

01:12:25.550 - 01:12:39.730

biggest critique of me she was like, "Antonius, you don't look me in the eye. I noticed that probably a cultural thing. But you can't live the rest of your life like that. Like, look at me with pride.

01:12:40.800 - 01:12:56.050

Show me that you're really listening. And then I'm able to take you seriously." And so she really taught me like the art of conversation, of being present. And the list just goes on and on like, Alaska

01:12:56.930 - 01:13:13.880

Popalo . My partner, Brandon Brooks, all the artists that I've met, residency hopping the past four years, it's been such a privilege and honor to be around more established

01:13:14.850 - 01:13:28.830

older artists. So often I was the youngest person at a residency. And they provided glimpses of what my future could be. To show me

01:13:28.830 - 01:13:44.360

that being an artist is possible. So I think like Akiko Jackson, Anina Major, Lydia Hex, Human Wen, Christy Chan… the list just goes on and on and on.

01:13:46.320 - 01:14:03.390

But there's so so many role models in my life. And I just regret that like, I can't keep up with all of them, just because time is so limited, but I hope they all know that. I think about them every single

01:14:03.880 - 01:14:22.100

time I'm in the studio. Anytime I do have a studio, I like to just pull up images of my favorite artists, my favorite like poems by my favorite writers. I'll put up like a, I’ll create an altar, almost like

01:14:22.100 - 01:14:36.740

my artists ancestors. And I think it's so important to remember that, that you are constantly in conversation with this entire history of artists and

01:14:36.740 - 01:14:48.890

makers. And you are not like— you're not a genius. None of us are. Well actually okay,

01:14:48.890 - 01:15:04.240

that's a little harsh, but this idea that um, we don't exist in vacuums. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I remember this collective consciousness has been in many people's,

01:15:05.190 - 01:15:20.760

yeah, speech that they were talking about... And I also wanted to see like for you who are really conscientiously engaging many of the social and political issues in a lot of your works, like, for

01:15:20.760 - 01:15:37.400

example, the pop art series, the "ReModel Minority", that is currently in the exhibit, "Faces in the Pandemic," thinking like, how do you balance, like emotions, such as anger or response,

01:15:37.400 - 01:15:55.050

emotional responses to issues with like, the more rational and kind of, tuition versus intuition in your creative process? Oh yeah, balance is definitely not a thing.

01:15:57.250 - 01:16:13.240

I'm constantly in flux, a state of imbalance. And I think more than ever, when people ask, like, "How are you doing?" I like first I don't even know how what to ask people nowadays, like we're getting close to the

01:16:13.240 - 01:16:27.850

election between Trump and Biden; we're still going through a pandemic. We have so many climate crisis is going on. And I feel like not being okay is

01:16:30.120 - 01:16:47.120

the standard now, and that's really unfortunate. But I have a shirt that says… what's it called? I think it's called "Radical softness as an infinite form of

01:16:47.200 - 01:17:06.790

resistance". Let me Google this real quick. If by any chance, you need to share screen, you can do that. It's called "Radical softness as a boundless form of

01:17:06.820 - 01:17:26.670

resistance." And I constantly think about that T shirt and how I always want to remain soft, and porous and tender in a world that is so rough, and destructive.

01:17:30.280 - 01:17:42.010

I remember one friend telling me it's like "Antonius, like, um, do you ever get angry or sad? Like, every time I see you, you're always just so like, you always seem so

01:17:42.010 - 01:18:00.450

composed and happy." And I guess I am an eternal optimist. And I think that if we ever lose hope, then we have failed one another. And I just hope, like, I will hold on to hope and

01:18:00.450 - 01:18:12.900

optimism to the day I die. Because as horrible as the world is today, I truly believe that each of us have the capacity to move mountains together.

01:18:15.640 - 01:18:32.280

Yeah, I really, really believe in humanity. And for me, there's– there's no other option. Yeah. We have to stay hopeful, resilient, take time to rest.

01:18:33.130 - 01:18:48.150

And to be with yourself, to recalibrate and remember what you're fighting for. But get back on the frontlines whenever you're ready. Yeah. Well, it feels like a philosophy of life for

01:18:48.650 - 01:19:05.490

that one to admire, and uh and next, I was just wondering, your community engagement as actively as you're wearing both the artist and curator hats, at the Alief Arthouse

01:19:07.090 - 01:19:22.480

with Matt Manalo and, like, how do you engage the community with your practices? Yeah. Oh, that's another point of imbalance in my life like the maker and the organizer.

01:19:25.040 - 01:19:40.430

And how do I do both with limited time and funding? But, um, I guess like you mentioned, Alief Arthouse, which is a shipping container that has been transformed into a flexible art gallery

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space. It was started by Matt Manalo, who is a phenomenal Filipinx artist, dad, curator. I'm just so lucky to have Matt in my life, especially since

01:19:57.070 - 01:20:06.190

I'm not in Houston right now. And he has been the one meeting with the artists, installing the shows, and doing everything.

01:20:06.590 - 01:20:19.310

But I guess the organizing really comes in. Because personally I've, like, so…

01:20:22.840 - 01:20:36.320

so much of my— whenever people ask like, about moments of success in my life, it always has to do with being able to support other artists and thinkers.

01:20:39.010 - 01:20:57.530

What brings me the most joy is being able to facilitate other people's visions, to see them celebrate their own work, to be able to support them in their own making, because it is so hard to be an artists

01:20:58.700 - 01:21:14.530

who have such limited opportunities, funding, with limited knowledge of art making in the general public. And so any opportunity I have to create space for artists, especially

01:21:14.920 - 01:21:28.140

queer artists, artists from marginalized communities, I'll try my best to be there. And for me, community organizing whether or not that's like a singular event, a

01:21:28.440 - 01:21:46.140

photoshoot, a performance that incorporates local community members, I'll try my best to do that. Because I think I have been embraced by so many elders; I've been given opportunities by

01:21:46.210 - 01:22:04.160

other organizers who have believed in my work. And I truly believe like that community care is what's needed to put… to put art in the collective consciousness, to really elevate

01:22:04.970 - 01:22:22.540

art making and the role of the artists, it really does take an entire community. Yeah, I’ve— and I’m constantly learning. I'm going to be completely honest, I feel like I make

01:22:22.540 - 01:22:40.340

so many mistakes when I organize whether or not it's like, promising too many things in the beginning, because I'm like an eternal optimist, or extending myself too far, and then shutting down, and not being able to be there for

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my community. Because when you organize, it's… organizing for me is so much harder than being a solo maker in a studio, because so many people depend on you. So many people are there to hold you accountable.

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And you have to be so transparent and vulnerable and flexible. And I'm hoping that we, as a public, learn to really revolutionize the art institutions that we've

01:23:19.260 - 01:23:32.990

created, and be okay with critiquing one another. Of being better at listening to the communities that we serve. I think that's something that I've learned in the past few years.

01:23:34.170 - 01:23:51.740

It's to… so often organizers come in with their own vision, and simply use community members as a way to manifest that vision. But what, what does the community really need?

01:23:52.240 - 01:24:03.530

Do they even want that project? What would be most beneficial to them? Do they really need this hour long performance? Or do they need a library?

01:24:05.700 - 01:24:21.640

Yeah, art making can look like so many different things. Art making can be policy change. It can mean organizing a protest. It can mean selling your own artwork to raise

01:24:22.030 - 01:24:38.530

funds for a cause. And I think as I move forward, I just want to always be mindful. Keeping both ears open, and truly listening to the

01:24:38.530 - 01:24:54.600

needs of others. Yeah. Beautiful. Next, I was just wondering, how has Houston been the place for you in your life? And would you call it home?

01:24:56.590 - 01:25:13.470

Oh, Houston. Oh, Houston. So I was able to go back to Houston as an adult, for the first time, long term, when I was awarded a residency at the

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Houston Center for Contemporary Craft. And returning home as an adult who knew themselves more, who had a car, who was so much more comfortable with their queerness and exploring the city,

01:25:34.750 - 01:25:47.570

it was absolutely life changing. And I have so much Houston pride now. Because Houston is— it's so overlooked. I think

01:25:47.570 - 01:26:04.220

whenever people are like, "Wait, you're from Texas?!" People always have these preconceived notions of the South, specifically Texas. But I think because Houston isn't New York, it's not LA, it's not Chicago.

01:26:04.850 - 01:26:25.700

Um, there's so much space for improvisation, for creating your own path. And there is this… Almost as if like, because we know we’re not on your radar, we're going to

01:26:25.700 - 01:26:36.840

do our own thing. And we're going to be so unapologetic about that. And that really breeds innovation. I don't know Houston

01:26:36.950 - 01:26:50.700

is, has some of my favorite drag artists. Um, I've been so grateful to… I— to have so many people who feel like home in Houston.

01:26:51.750 - 01:27:03.870

Whether or not that's the curator of the Houston Center for Contemporary Craft, Catherine Hall, or Stephanie at Lawndale Art Center. Matt Manalo.

01:27:06.980 - 01:27:25.200

Sorry, um, so many of my favorite artists are in Houston, Predikka and Lovey. And I'm so grateful that Houston continues to reach out to me and doesn't forget me. And I can only hope that I continue

01:27:25.790 - 01:27:35.580

finding ways to give back to Houston, to be of service to Houston. Because I genuinely do love Houston. Even though the traffic sucks.

01:27:37.710 - 01:27:55.740

And it gets like unbearably hot at times. I– I love the swampiness of it, the diversity of it. The Chinatown in Houston has like the best food in the country, if I do say so myself. Um, yeah.

01:27:56.800 - 01:28:09.610

Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Wow, I’m Houston misses you as well! Yeah, but any time! I guess that's all of

01:28:09.610 - 01:28:19.950

my questions. And do you have anything you would like to add? Maybe messages for people out there who I guess struggling with their identities

01:28:21.360 - 01:28:33.520

as queer, as Asian Americans, or just a general message for like humanity? Yeah, maybe.

01:28:33.520 - 01:28:49.950

I think about like, these are more messages for myself, I guess. But I'm currently 27 years old, and I'm still learning about myself on a daily basis.

01:28:51.430 - 01:29:03.280

My identity is constantly changing. I'm defining queerness on my own terms. I'm also defining what it means to

01:29:03.280 - 01:29:20.670

be an Asian American on a daily basis. And I think when you're able to just authentically be yourself, that's when people will gravitate towards you.

01:29:22.860 - 01:29:44.460

Start, yeah, also, it's it's never ever ever, too late to begin anything. Whether or not that's reconnecting with loved ones, unpacking history, learning how to dance, learning how to

01:29:44.460 - 01:29:56.550

speak Vietnamese, or a language that you really want. For instance, I myself, like okay, “This is the year I want to learn Vietnamese. I want to learn Tai Chi. I want to be able to do a split.

01:29:56.970 - 01:30:10.100

I want to learn how to cook more Vietnamese cuisine.” Yeah. And I think I used to carry so much shame around all of these things. And when I

01:30:10.140 - 01:30:28.000

understood that, you know, carrying shame wasn't useful to me whatsoever that I had to proactively heal and move forward, that's when I felt most liberated.

01:30:29.300 - 01:30:46.610

Yeah. Wow, thank you so much, Antonius. Oh, thank you, Ann, for making time to just yet interview me invite me to be part of this. I apologize if I really rambled all over the place, or it was like

01:30:46.630 - 01:31:02.220

such a rocky start. But just this opportunity to reflect on my life. And to begin putting words to my own history has been really empowering.

01:31:02.810 - 01:31:21.140

And I thank you for creating this marker for me. And now, yeah, I feel like, I feel empowered to continue moving forward. I feel reminded of why I'm an artist,

01:31:22.090 - 01:31:34.560

and I hope to continue working with you in the future. Yeah, absolutely. Me too. And we're grateful for your support and contribution to the archive. Thank you.